advice needed on how to handle a Warrior Forum supplier who did not deliver?

Not by giving their names here, no. As explained in the rules.

He should post in their WSO threads commenting openly and honestly about their failure of delivery. That's the appropriate way to "call them out" and "save the rest of us from being scammed". And if their failure to deliver persists, he should report their WSO threads (or whatever) to the moderators, too: their WSO's might be closed down. (If they're not WSO's/Classifieds/WFH's, then he needs to take it up with them privately).

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Kam,

Use the little red triangle next to the sales post for each to report the problem. Give enough details to allow whichever moderator catches it to look into the situation.

jgetsmoneyy,

isn't it good he calls them out and saves the rest of us from being scammed?

It would be, if people were more careful about how they used words like "scammed" or "screwed." And if it wasn't so common for folks to outright lie about things in order to sabotage someone, or to blackmail a person into giving them something to which they're not entitled.

I know. A lot of people simply don't believe it's all that common, but it is. The majority (I'd estimate over 90%) of the allegations of scamming that I've seen here are either communication snafus, technical issues, or outright lies.

Paul

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Paul,

Interesting info. I'm sure you have seen many of those type of issues you mentioned on this forum.

I maybe a little naive or ill informed on the Forum rules and regulations. Let's see .. i guess i can ask the forum their experience with the Supplier in question without saying anything else about them. ( nothing wrong with that is there? )

Thanks
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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Kam,

Let's see .. i guess i can ask the forum their experience with the Supplier in question without saying anything else about them. ( nothing wrong with that is there? )

After this post? No, you may not. That would be linked back to this, and would be treated as a direct accusation.

Paul

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Kam,After this post? No, you may not. That would be linked back to this, and would be treated as a direct accusation.

Paul

Paul,

Interesting! so i was wrong on 2 accounts then. Good thing i mentioned it..before actually posting. Thanks for saving me from a possible 2nd forum infraction within 10 minutes.

(Wow! does anyone see any similarity between this forum and our legal system?)

Thanks
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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kmalikis

Paul,

Interesting! so i was wrong on 2 accounts then. Good thing i mentioned it..before actually posting. Thanks for saving me from a possible 2nd forum infraction within 10 minutes.

(Wow! does anyone see any similarity between this forum and our legal system?)

How about reading the rules... oh wait people in the outside world don't read or follow the rules either then cry how they were beat down by the system.

You should STOP what you are doing right now and go back and read the rules of this forum very carefully. Allen didn't post them for the fun of it...

Thanks

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Thanks Alexa,

I'll do that. I will post on their thread...actually i did do that. It's a dead thread...i was the last to post on there last week.

Kam

Thanks

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joseph7384

11 years ago

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Originally Posted by joseph7384

This is exactly why we are not allowed to call others out by names! You say that you posted on the thread last week but your last post to a WSO thread was actually on Oct, 6.

When someone comes on the main forum to complain that they were screwed it is usually a half baked version of the truth.

Hey Joseph,

Thanks for pointing that out... your right..i must have said the wrong date..i guess i'm confused between the many attempts to reach the WF vendor, through their website, their email and skype and telephone without avail.

I came here looking for help... but really appreciate the feeling of being put on the stand and cross examined... well done Councillor...well done!

( oh..the knot on your tie is a little crooked...there you go...much better....next witness your Honour )

Thanks

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BIG Mike Banned 11 years ago

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- kmalikis 11 years ago
  
  Interesting perspective Big Mike.
  
  Opinions or advice is asked everyday on this forum. While naming products and their creators. The good, bad and ugly..is also mentioned everyday.
  
  I didn't say anything malicious...i have a case and wanted other peoples opinion on their experience and how to deal with it.
  
  Some people have given positive direction on how to deal with it, while correcting me on forum policy.
  
  Kam
  
  Thanks
  
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kmalikis 11 years ago

Even though it may be against the forum rules...i kind of agree with you. I can't see any good that comes from protecting the guilty.

But that rule is there for a reason...i just don't know why.
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- Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Kam,
  
  I can't see any good that comes from protecting the guilty.
  
  Why do people insist on taking that interpretation, even when it's just been explained to them that the goal is to protect the innocent from false or mistaken accusations?
  
  Paul
  
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kmalikis 11 years ago

Sorry..i really did not know it's against the forum rules to name the guilty. But i'll keep that in mind.

Kam
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SamAlnawar

11 years ago

Hey Kam,

How did you know this supplier in the first place?

Does his/her offer has a thread here in the forum? If yes, does it
have many good feedacks/reviews? If yes, then that's a good
sign that you can get your money back. You can threaten him/her
that you'll leave a very bad review and that'll damage his/her
reputation. But if doesn't have many good reviews, then I don't
think you can do anything about it..

However, if you paid him/her via PayPal, you can open a case
form your PayPal account and will definitely win..

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kmalikis 11 years ago

Thanks Sam,

Unfortunately, the delivery dragged on so long that it has passed the Paypal time line allowed of 45 days. I'll try a charge back on my credit card...but if my Paypal account was funded by my bank account, i don't think it will work then.
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Rags2Richs

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SamAlnawar

Hey Kam,

How did you know this supplier in the first place?

Does his/her offer has a thread here in the forum? If yes, does it
have many good feedacks/reviews? If yes, then that's a good
sign that you can get your money back. You can threaten him/her
that you'll leave a very bad review and that'll damage his/her
reputation. But if doesn't have many good reviews, then I don't
think you can do anything about it..

However, if you paid him/her via PayPal, you can open a case
form your PayPal account and will definitely win..

Not always, read TOS of Paypal. It's important that there be a Guarantee or Refund specified in the WSO sales content I believe.

Thanks

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captainron4

11 years ago

Is it that bad to just move on, I have purchased 5 WSO's and actually received something for 2 of them. The other 3 I never got anything....I wrote it off to experience and now know that here is not the best place to get purchased information. Live , Learn, Move on.

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Lloyd Buchinski

11 years ago

If you bought the product, you are entitled to post your experiences in the wso topic. Be careful, don't use strong language or personal insults, or the post can be deleted. Just post objectively about the problem you are having.

And if that doesn't work, you check with your credit card about doing a charge back, or with Paypal. My credit card has about 10 reasons you can do a charge back, and the last one is titled 'other.' I had to do it with a problem wso, and it went through. (thank you mc)

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kmalikis 11 years ago

Thanks Lloyd for the advice.

That's my next step. I think Paypal won't do anything because it's over the 45 day time period. Next i'll go to my credit card company.

Kam
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TimothyTorrents

11 years ago

You can raise a dispute against the payment with Paypal. If you raise a dispute with Paypal the funds are automatically deducted from his account so that should make him resolve it unless he really doesn't mind losing money.

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joseph7384 11 years ago

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- kmalikis 11 years ago
  
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  joseph7384 11 years ago
  
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  Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Joseph,
  
  Did you notice that the seller was banned from the forum.
  
  That happened after the situation was reported. The moderator who caught it looked at the thread and saw several unaddressed issues, and banned the seller until they're corrected.
  
  The system here works, if it's used properly.
  
  Paul
  
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salegurus

11 years ago

Originally Posted by timbonitus

You can raise a dispute against the payment with Paypal. If you raise a dispute with Paypal the funds are automatically deducted from his account so that should make him resolve it unless he really doesn't mind losing money.

No he cant.
1) If you read his post #19, the paypal refund period has ended.
2) Paypal does not refund on digital products.

To OP, give it up you are not going to win here....

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kmalikis

11 years ago

This has certainly been educational. It was a little naive of me to expect more support on here.
There seems to be a much stronger sense of duty to uphold the rules of the forum than try to protect the reputation of the forum by "outing" a vendor who did not deliver.

I can get over loosing $150 but the time lost is what is really bothering me about this situation.

Kam

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johndetlefs

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kmalikis

This has certainly been educational. It was a little naive of me to expect more support on here.
There seems to be a much stronger sense of duty to uphold the rules of the forum than try to protect the reputation of the forum by "outing" a vendor who did not deliver.

I can get over loosing $150 but the time lost is what is really bothering me about this situation.

Kam

Kam, while everyone on here is trying to help (mostly), i'd be using Paul as a source of truth on this one... mainly because it's kind of what he does here as far as I can tell.

As far as what can be done, it's a tough one, and one that almost every large marketplace has to figure out, including ebay, WF, Clickbank etc.

Ultimately it seems that none of them get it completely right, because there will always be someone who doesn't get the desired result in a given complaint, and so will disagree with the system.

Now to answer your actual question, I've been in this situation before (although it was over $300) and WarriorPlus actually refunded my money (not saying that was the correct procedure, just what I did), which I very much appreciated.

In general, contact the WSO provider (or classified etc) and let them know that you have a problem, either by the procedures that they have outlined (helpdesk etc) and if that doesn't work then on their actual post asking for a refund.

If that doesn't work, then get a little heavier on the post, stating that you have contacted them via the methods that they asked for, detail the issues that you have with the product and state again that you want a refund.

I wouldn't advise in any way getting personal about it, because your post will just get deleted by a mod, and you may get banned yourself.

If none of that works, then complain about the offer to a WF Mod, and go to PayPal or WarriorPlus and make a complaint. I'm aware that WarriorPlus don't officially get involved, but I have had good experiences after contacting them. I'm also aware that Paypal doesn't refund digital products, but that doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule, and i've heard of situations where they will refund your money. Anecdotally I've heard that it depends on whether you're the only person making complaints about that particular seller.

After that, if you're still not getting any contact from the seller, then i'd go to your credit card company to see if you get any love that way. That's heavily frowned upon by all concerned, and I'm pretty sure that if you go that way then you won't be able to purchase anything using WarriorPlus again, at least i'm pretty sure that I read that when I was going through my refund issue.

I also tend to not purchase high priced WSOs anymore unless i've purchased lower priced WSOs from the same seller, as even with a guarantee, there are no actual "guarantees" as far as the WF is concerned.

The WF won't give you back your money but they can close down the thread and ban the seller (if they agree that there is an issue), but take no responsibility for the money lost, and, depending on how I feel each day, I can kind of understand why they have that policy.

From what you've said it looks like you've decided to ask for a refund a little late in the day and that has reduced your options considerably around Paypal etc.

Ultimately, it seems that a loosely policed Cavaet Emptor rules here on the forum, for better or worse!

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Originally Posted by johndetlefs

Kam, while everyone on here is trying to help (mostly), i'd be using Paul as a source of truth on this one... mainly because it's kind of what he does here as far as I can tell.

As far as what can be done, it's a tough one, and one that almost every large marketplace has to figure out, including ebay, WF, Clickbank etc.

Ultimately it seems that none of them get it completely right, because there will always be someone who doesn't get the desired result in a given complaint, and so will disagree with the system.

Now to answer your actual question, I've been in this situation before (although it was over $300) and WarriorPlus actually refunded my money (not saying that was the correct procedure, just what I did), which I very much appreciated.

In general, contact the WSO provider (or classified etc) and let them know that you have a problem, either by the procedures that they have outlined (helpdesk etc) and if that doesn't work then on their actual post asking for a refund.

If that doesn't work, then get a little heavier on the post, stating that you have contacted them via the methods that they asked for, detail the issues that you have with the product and state again that you want a refund.

I wouldn't advise in any way getting personal about it, because your post will just get deleted by a mod, and you may get banned yourself.

If none of that works, then complain about the offer to a WF Mod, and go to PayPal or WarriorPlus and make a complaint. I'm aware that WarriorPlus don't officially get involved, but I have had good experiences after contacting them. I'm also aware that Paypal doesn't refund digital products, but that doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule, and i've heard of situations where they will refund your money. Anecdotally I've heard that it depends on whether you're the only person making complaints about that particular seller.

After that, if you're still not getting any contact from the seller, then i'd go to your credit card company to see if you get any love that way. That's heavily frowned upon by all concerned, and I'm pretty sure that if you go that way then you won't be able to purchase anything using WarriorPlus again, at least i'm pretty sure that I read that when I was going through my refund issue.

I also tend to not purchase high priced WSOs anymore unless i've purchased lower priced WSOs from the same seller, as even with a guarantee, there are no actual "guarantees" as far as the WF is concerned.

The WF won't give you back your money but they can close down the thread and ban the seller (if they agree that there is an issue), but take no responsibility for the money lost, and, depending on how I feel each day, I can kind of understand why they have that policy.

From what you've said it looks like you've decided to ask for a refund a little late in the day and that has reduced your options considerably around Paypal etc.

Ultimately, it seems that a loosely policed Cavaet Emptor rules here on the forum, for better or worse!

Johndetlefs,

Thanks for your message on this thread. The tone was supportive, helpful and genuine

Thanks

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johndetlefs

11 years ago

To be fair Mike, the only rule that the WF states is that the buyer should contact the seller, and if they don't get any help to report the thread to a mod.

Allen also states "The forum is not part of the transaction between a buyer and seller. We have no ability to force a refund or other action by any party. We cannot correct these issues. We are limited to reducing or removing access by parties we believe may be acting improperly or who violate the rules here."

I understand and agree with the policy, but that isn't a huge amount of help when it comes to getting your money back.

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Mike Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by johndetlefs

To be fair Mike, the only rule that the WF states is that the buyer should contact the seller, and if they don't get any help to report the thread to a mod.

Allen also states "The forum is not part of the transaction between a buyer and seller. We have no ability to force a refund or other action by any party. We cannot correct these issues. We are limited to reducing or removing access by parties we believe may be acting improperly or who violate the rules here."

I understand and agree with the policy, but that isn't a huge amount of help when it comes to getting your money back.

That's because the Forum isn't responsible for that liability as they state in the rules. However, if proven, the forum will take action against a Warrior who is ripping people off if that is the case but as far as the money goes, it's between the buyer and the seller, not the forum.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

John,

The WF won't give you back your money but they can close down the thread and ban the seller (if they agree that there is an issue), but take no responsibility for the money lost, and, depending on how I feel each day, I can kind of understand why they have that policy.

It's not just a policy. It's a statement of reality.

Sellers pay Allen for the ad space. Everything else is handled between the buyer, seller, and whatever payment processor and/or affiliate platform is involved.

The forum has zero role in the transaction between the buyer and the seller. It simply isn't possible for anyone here to refund a customer's purchase other than the seller or affiliate who was paid or, possibly, the affiliate platform. (Not sure on that last one.)

We take failure to honor a posted refund policy VERY seriously. In several cases, I've banned repeat, high-volume advertisers over a single refusal to honor a refund request until they gave the refund. Note: They made it clear they were choosing to deny a refund that was clearly within the posted policy. Not all issues are that black and white.

If they don't have a posted refund policy, or it states "No refunds," we're not going to get involved in refund arguments. (Failure to deliver and/or misrepresentation of a product are also issues we take very seriously. They're just a different discussion.)

As Kam found out today, reporting problems does result in action, when the report is supported by sufficient evidence.

Paul

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

John,It's not just a policy. It's a statement of reality.

Sellers pay Allen for the ad space. Everything else is handled between the buyer, seller, and whatever payment processor and/or affiliate platform is involved.

The forum has zero role in the transaction between the buyer and the seller. It simply isn't possible for anyone here to refund a customer's purchase other than the seller or affiliate who was paid or, possibly, the affiliate platform. (Not sure on that last one.)

We take failure to honor a posted refund policy VERY seriously. In several cases, I've banned repeat, high-volume advertisers over a single refusal to honor a refund request until they gave the refund. Note: They made it clear they were choosing to deny a refund that was clearly within the posted policy. Not all issues are that black and white.

If they don't have a posted refund policy, or it states "No refunds," we're not going to get involved in refund arguments. (Failure to deliver and/or misrepresentation of a product are also issues we take very seriously. They're just a different discussion.)

As Kam found out today, reporting problems does result in action, when the report is supported by sufficient evidence.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Since the Vendor has been banned. What do the forum rules say about warning or protecting others from dealing with this Vendor under a different handle/username in the future?

Kam

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Kam,

Since the Vendor has been banned. What do the forum rules say about warning or protecting others from dealing with this Vendor under a different handle/username in the future?

They say, "Don't."

The vendor may have been banned temporarily, pending a resolution of the outstanding issues.

Paul

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NicheMayhem

11 years ago

Since the seller buys ad space here for their offer, the policy on them getting called out as a scamming scumbag is necessary. Without it, sellers would be bad mouthing their competition left and right and the marketplace would fail.

Somehow the mods have been able to keep this place from falling into utter chaos for how many years now? With how many thousands of offers being posted to everyday? Does anyone really think this is the first situation where a buyer had an issue with a seller here on the WF?

Seriously. Let's ease up on all the sarcasm. They can't just automatically know which of the two involved in the argument is to be trusted just because your the one complaining. If they took everyone on their word every single WSO would end up being removed. Competition here is fierce and they do a good job of not only trying to stay out of the squabbles but taking appropriate action and providing the appropriate guidelines that are freely available to every member. It is up to us to take it upon ourselves to seek out and be aware of them prior to even making a purchase.

How will you feel if you come to find out the seller was hit by a drunk driver and is currently fighting for their life in the hospital? Or any number of possibilities that would prevent them from making good on their offer. You never know and it is possible. However unlikely it may be, there is no way to know what the problem is. If you come to find out the seller has a very understandable reason for the delay, I'm glad there were people here to stop you before you said things you couldn't take back and could possibly end up regretting.

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kmalikis

11 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheMayhem

Since the seller buys ad space here for their offer, the policy on them getting called out as a scamming scumbag is necessary. Without it, sellers would be bad mouthing their competition left and right and the marketplace would fail.

Somehow the mods have been able to keep this place from falling into utter chaos for how many years now? With how many thousands of offers being posted to everyday? Does anyone really think this is the first situation where a buyer had an issue with a seller here on the WF?

Seriously. Let's ease up on all the sarcasm. They can't just automatically know which of the two involved in the argument is to be trusted just because your the one complaining. If they took everyone on their word every single WSO would end up being removed. Competition here is fierce and they do a good job of not only trying to stay out of the squabbles but taking appropriate action and providing the appropriate guidelines that are freely available to every member. It is up to us to take it upon ourselves to seek out and be aware of them prior to even making a purchase.

How will you feel if you come to find out the seller was hit by a drunk driver and is currently fighting for their life in the hospital? Or any number of possibilities that would prevent them from making good on their offer. You never know and it is possible. However unlikely it may be, there is no way to know what the problem is. If you come to find out the seller has a very understandable reason for the delay, I'm glad there were people here to stop you before you said things you couldn't take back and could possibly end up regretting.

Most of what you said is reasonable...but there is a tone in your message that implies that i was quick to post my original message.
That is not the case...i waited 2 weeks of no contact from the Vendor with multiple attempts through various methods of communication without any contact from the vendor.

Kam

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johndetlefs

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The forum has zero role in the transaction between the buyer and the seller. It simply isn't possible for anyone here to refund a customer's purchase other than the seller or affiliate who was paid or, possibly, the affiliate platform. (Not sure on that last one.)

I hadn't looked at it quite like that, but you're obviously right, the WF basically stands up as an advertising platform (in this context) and has no direct relationship with the actual money changing hands, which is where the power to refund lies.

In that context, the WF does everything in it's power to moderate issues that occur on the selling platform.

Hmmm... I've written, and re-written this post about 3 times, as I'm really struggling to articulate my sentiments around this, and I think that the issue definitely revolves around your point Paul, that the forum has zero role in the actual transaction, which I think that would be a bit of a "slap the forehead" revelation to many new people who purchase WSOs on the forum, as the perception can easily be to treat the WF a little bit like an Amazon for IMers, if that makes any sense?

I guess that's maybe the best way to put it. The WF feels like a fully fledged marketplace platform, when in fact it is a fully fledged advertising platform, and I think that's where some people get burned as they presume the safety of an Amazon like site.

Makes me have a new empathy for Paypal, as they are becoming a defacto marketplace tribunal or adjudicator by virtue of actually handling the transaction, which is a situation that they can effectively never win, as 50% of the parties will feel hard done by.

Just musing here, and also moving slightly off topic, so apologies if I'm hijacking the thread a little bit!

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

John,

I hadn't looked at it quite like that

Most people haven't. It's not an obvious point, and the perception you described certainly exists. That, despite the fact that the WSO rules say otherwise, and we don't appear anywhere in the transaction details of actual sales.

The namespace overlap with WarriorPlus and WSO Pro doesn't help in that regard. That's not meant to fault Mike, mind you. He created the first platform to help Warriors sell more and track and deliver on their sales in a more effective way.

It's just a fact. People become understandably confused by the similarity of names.

I like the distinction of feeling like a marketing platform, rather than an advertising platform. Very nice analogy.

Paul
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Paul Myers 11 years ago

John,

Just wanted to add:

a situation that they can effectively never win, as 50% of the parties will feel hard done by.

Same thing for the forum. When there's a dispute, most cases will result in someone feeling like we somehow took sides against them. If they're convinced they were scammed, they'll blame us, because they don't understand how the system works, or because we don't just ban people based on a single accusation with no supporting evidence.

It's certain that we've made mistakes from lack of information. There's no way around that when people aren't willing to slow down and work it out or explain things in a civil and logical fashion. Sometimes they are willing to do that, but don't understand the system well enough to give us the details we need to be sure of what the right action is.

When that happens, it's not uncommon for folks to decide that we're somehow siding with sellers (or buyers) against the "other side." That, too, is inevitable. Without understanding the limits within which we operate, there will always be people who leap to tall conclusions in a single bound.

You do the best you can, and you remember that you can't please everyone. Trying is a sucker's bet.

Paul
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johndetlefs

11 years ago

I can see the issue as being a bit "rock and a hard place", as even if you side with the buyer, you still don't have the power to issue the refund, which, except for the revenge driven, is what the majority of unhappy buyers will want.

Now that I'm thinking of the WF as a primarily advertising platform that feels like a marketplace platform I can see why that happens, and it's a thorny one to solve.

A partnership between Paypal and the WF a la eBay, or payment platform of choice, may be a way to create a "safer" option, not sure.

As you say, it may well be a sucker's bet to try!

Thanks

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You only get one shot at life - make it awesome.

Everyone else also gets just one crack at it - help make theirs awesome too... or, politely step out of their way.

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G.W.

11 years ago

I f the man was shafted and nothing is done, and he receives no requital then it's wrong.......

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G.W.

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advice needed on how to handle a Warrior Forum supplier who did not deliver?

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