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Too much listbuilding can cause 'blindness'

by Anton543
38 replies
It seems list building is by far and away the most popular method of IM, but with so many people building lists, there must be a danger subscribers will gradually start suffering something akin to ad blindness. Also, with so many people offering free gifts to trap people into their lists, and the subscribers then finding these gifts to be a let down, and also list owners bombarding them with emails, there is a danger squeeze pages will be ignored.

Honestly, I am not sure if lists is a viable long term business model. It will work in the near future, and even mid term, but I think lists are showing signs of becoming less responsive due to mass spam as everyone wants to get in on the action.

Quality lists are suffering because everyone one wants in. Its similar to adsense where every Joe Blogg has a blog and pastes adsense on it, and this in turn is causing ad blindness.
#blindness #listbuilding
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
    It causes lack of pizza...
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  • Profile picture of the author ProServices
    Remember people also have lists in the other super niches outside of IM. I am tempted into trying another hungry mass market and deliver quality content to that list. By all means have your foot in IM but there are so many other super niches to tap into. The hungry subscribers would be grateful for any solutions to their problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Silvey
    Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

    It seems list building is by far and away the most popular method of IM, but with so many people building lists, there must be a danger subscribers will gradually start suffering something akin to ad blindness. Also, with so many people offering free gifts to trap people into their lists, and the subscribers then finding these gifts to be a let down, and also list owners bombarding them with emails, there is a danger squeeze pages will be ignored.

    Honestly, I am not sure if lists is a viable long term business model. It will work in the near future, and even mid term, but I think lists are showing signs of becoming less responsive due to mass spam as everyone wants to get in on the action.

    Quality lists are suffering because everyone one wants in. Its similar to adsense where every Joe Blogg has a blog and pastes adsense on it, and this in turn is causing ad blindness.
    Finally someone understands!

    I see to much of the same old garbage in my Inbox as I seen back in the early days.

    If the current model works so well, why the low conversions?

    If it was that great I would be shopping out of my Inbox everyday.

    People don't seem to realize that everybody more or less has become conditioned.
    They see the spam, they see the hype, they see the suspicious looking links.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Ferguson
      As more people build their lists, the more pizza companies start struggling.

      Then offliners can visit the pizza companies and say 'You know what you need to do? Build a list!'

      Ah, the beauty of the circle of life.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Guys, stop with the fishbowl mentality this is not anything like marketing in the real world!

      If someone comes in to a forum like this then they'll get hit hard with offers and because of the general short term mentality they'll get traded from list to list until they've had enough.

      Don't compare lists built from places like here in the WF with "real world" lists The general public don't see hundreds of offers everyday or even 10 offers.

      If someone is looking for a course in wine tasting how many lists do you'll think they'll see while doing their research. Not many so if you have a relevant offer they'll signup

      They don't get swapped from list to list to promote a $7 product and they most certainly get Ad swapped.

      Furthermore

      If you build your list the right way you stand out from everyone else. Create high quality products and coaching and give it away coupled with entertaining and informative emails.

      You can still get a 75% open rate 3 or 4 emails into an AR sequence if you do that. You can also keep people on your list for years and years.. and they'll still open your emails.


      If you want to know what real world list building is like check out this blog post i did where i witnessed a launch to a small list non IM over lunch http://mjthompson.net/2006/action-results/

      You'll find the link to part 2 at the bottom.. (they finally did over £15,000 (about $25,000) in sales over 3 days to a small list)
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    I am never worried about too many people doing any one thing because most people do things wrong anyway

    Because of this and because of so many people just bombard their lists with offer after offer thinking that's the way to do things it's never been easier to "really stand out from the crowd"

    The "fast money mentality" will always be what most people focus on rather than having a long term plan and business goal so the guys that actually "care" and provide great information are the ones which will come out on top and not end up burning their lists for a quick buck
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  • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
    Mark makes a very good point! Our inboxes are not like "normal" consumer's inboxes. Don't assume that everyone out there has the same crowded inbox as people who work in IM do. Instead of stressing, consider advice such as what Paul had to say.

    Worry less about how others are disrespecting their lists and focus on respecting your subscribers -- that's about the only control you have in this. As my dad always said, if everyone jumped off a cliff would you do it too? When I was 15 I had to think about that for a minute, but now, it's an easy answer, no.

    Regards,
    jim
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by JimDucharme View Post

      Mark makes a very good point! Our inboxes are not like "normal" consumer's inboxes. Don't assume that everyone out there has the same crowded inbox as people who work in IM do. Instead of stressing, consider advice such as what Paul had to say.

      Worry less about how others are disrespecting their lists and focus on respecting your subscribers -- that's about the only control you have in this. As my dad always said, if everyone jumped off a cliff would you do it too? When I was 15 I had to think about that for a minute, but now, it's an easy answer, no.

      Regards,
      jim
      I can tell you this much...

      The correct answer is NOT "it depends on what's at the bottom."
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    With list building, you are building a relationship with your readers. You aren't just showing them a link to buy some random crap like Adsense.

    You can't exactly compare Adsense with list building either. Adsense is a product like Clickbank or Amazon goods. List building is a way of building a following and a business.

    List building is happening everytime you or someone else purchases anything online, receives a promotion in the mail, has a telemarketer on their answering machine, gets text special deals, joins an email newsletter, or even likes a fan page. All of that is list building in action.

    Every popular medium will become outdated and evolve to something new. Email marketing may becoming less effective, but open rates from text messages are amazing today... probably around 90-95%.

    Did you know that emails received a 90%+ open rate the first couple years they were around. They were new and exciting... like text messages today. Now, we delete most emails that come in.

    Your business will always have to evolve with the platforms that work the best, but you will always be able to make money with emails, direct mail pieces, and even telemarketers using quality list building strategies.

    Travis
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    • Profile picture of the author Anton543
      Originally Posted by petelta View Post

      With list building, you are building a relationship with your readers. You aren't just showing them a link to buy some random crap like Adsense.

      You can't exactly compare Adsense with list building either. Adsense is a product like Clickbank or Amazon goods. List building is a way of building a following and a business.

      List building is happening everytime you or someone else purchases anything online, receives a promotion in the mail, has a telemarketer on their answering machine, gets text special deals, joins an email newsletter, or even likes a fan page. All of that is list building in action.

      Every popular medium will become outdated and evolve to something new. Email marketing may becoming less effective, but open rates from text messages are amazing today... probably around 90-95%.

      Did you know that emails received a 90%+ open rate the first couple years they were around. They were new and exciting... like text messages today. Now, we delete most emails that come in.

      Your business will always have to evolve with the platforms that work the best, but you will always be able to make money with emails, direct mail pieces, and even telemarketers using quality list building strategies.

      Travis
      I disagree with SMS. I think email marketing is better than SMS. SMS to me is synonymous with spam.

      I know mobile commerce is going through a lot of hype at the moment,and possibly rightly so, but I think when it comes to online commerce, it stops with computer or tablet. I don't think many people will want to make serious purchases on mobiles where you can't really make proper judgement about a product without assessing it on a bigger screen. So even if they buy through mobile, people will want to research it on a bigger screen first.
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      • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
        Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

        I disagree with SMS. I think email marketing is better than SMS. SMS to me is synonymous with spam.

        I know mobile commerce is going through a lot of hype at the moment,and possibly rightly so, but I think when it comes to online commerce, it stops with computer or tablet. I don't think many people will want to make serious purchases on mobiles where you can't really make proper judgement about a product without assessing it on a bigger screen. So even if they buy through mobile, people will want to research it on a bigger screen first.
        I don't think Travis was trying to say that SMS is the answer to all problems in IM. He's just pointing out that it's new and shiny and that hasn't worn off yet for most consumers. But of course it will. You can google SMS spam and find lots of rants about it. I know I get SMS spam daily.

        Here's a link to a very interesting infographic comparing other social channels to email.

        Email has evolved a lot over the years and will continue to do so. Those marketers who are ready to evolve with the inbox will continue to find great success with it. I always keep in mind that we are not email marketers, but marketers who use email.

        Regards,
        jim
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      • Profile picture of the author petelta
        Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

        I disagree with SMS. I think email marketing is better than SMS. SMS to me is synonymous with spam.

        I know mobile commerce is going through a lot of hype at the moment,and possibly rightly so, but I think when it comes to online commerce, it stops with computer or tablet. I don't think many people will want to make serious purchases on mobiles where you can't really make proper judgement about a product without assessing it on a bigger screen. So even if they buy through mobile, people will want to research it on a bigger screen first.
        An SMS list is no more spam than an email list. You should be still asking your subscribers to submit their number and confirm they want to be on your SMS list. They want your messages if they are there.

        The point was email is fading and other platforms arise. Just like when email came about, and us marketers started posting promotions. People said things just like your post... "ah I think that email stuff is useless. I'm gonna stick with direct mail"

        Text lists are extremely valuable for local businesses too. It's not all selling digital products where they need to research the web.

        Travis
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        • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
          Originally Posted by petelta View Post

          An SMS list is no more spam than an email list. You should be still asking your subscribers to submit their number and confirm they want to be on your SMS list. They want your messages if they are there.

          The point was email is fading and other platforms arise. Just like when email came about, and us marketers started posting promotions. People said things just like your post... "ah I think that email stuff is useless. I'm gonna stick with direct mail"

          Text lists are extremely valuable for local businesses too. It's not all selling digital products where they need to research the web.

          Travis
          You offer some good insight Travis, but I have to disagree with you about email fading. It's not fading. It's evolving and that's a good thing. Marketers have to evolve their tactics with it or die.

          The biggest question among marketing analysts and insiders today is whether other social media channels are as scalable as email. Right now I don't have a solid opinion on that myself, just suspicions.

          Shiny object syndrom is a big problem for marketers. Just take a look at these figures reported by Emarketer last week: 57% of marketers reported using Twitter and yet only 31% of consumer respondents are actually on it. 51% of marketers said they use Google+ and yet only 21% of consumers are using it. On the flipside, 53% of consumers are on YouTube and only 41% or marketers have a presence there. While on Facebook it's 93% consumers to marketers at 83%.


          Take a look at the infographic I posted a link to.

          That's no where near as eloquent as how John put it, but it's true.

          Regards,
          jim
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          • Profile picture of the author petelta
            Originally Posted by JimDucharme View Post

            You offer some good insight Travis, but I have to disagree with you about email fading. It's not fading. It's evolving and that's a good thing. Marketers have to evolve their tactics with it or die.

            The biggest question among marketing analysts and insiders today is whether other social media channels are as scalable as email. Right now I don't have a solid opinion on that myself, just suspicions.

            Shiny object syndrom is a big problem for marketers. Just take a look at these figures reported by Emarketer last week: 57% of marketers reported using Twitter and yet only 31% of consumer respondents are actually on it. 51% of marketers said they use Google+ and yet only 21% of consumers are using it. On the flipside, 53% of consumers are on YouTube and only 41% or marketers have a presence there. While on Facebook it's 93% consumers to marketers at 83%.


            Take a look at the infographic I posted a link to.

            That's no where near as eloquent as how John put it, but it's true.

            Regards,
            jim
            I totally agree with you actually. I guess I meant fading as in regard to what it used to be and what it will end being years from now. Like you helped me point out, everything fades.

            Email marketing is definitely my number 1 choice for list building today.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joey Starkey
    It is all about the niche, IM and MMO are good because most do not take action moving between shiny objects.

    Kind of the same thing for weight loss. There is always a new diet or a promising new pill.

    I build list in multiple niches, just because I want to have an income for life.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewStark
    If you're just following an outdated PLR ebook you bought from the first person who made you an offer then yes you will find listbuilding difficult.

    Far too many people are selling products they know nothing about and don't seem to care that the information contained inside the product is enough to send people backwards down the learning curve.

    Stick to a niche that you're passionate about, deliver high quality content, and recommend products that you would use personally. Rinse and repeat for maximum success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    It helps to think of your list in bricks-and-mortar business terms. Your email list represents your repeat customer base. If you owned a pizza joint and had lots of competition, how would you survive and stand out? You'd offer specials and give superb customer service. You'd cultivate your customers to expand your repeat business base.

    It's no different online. Yes, there are a lot more pizza places online now (other list owners). But there are also more buyers. Carve out your corner. Give them high quality content. Only recommend the best products. Only create great products/services of your own.

    Ad blindness is a cop-out. Be better than all that noise in the marketplace.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author shaunyb1
      Hi,

      I know what you are saying. My belief is that this is something that "marketers" wind up "feeling", but isn't necessarily true.

      Once a subscribers receives great content, they will probably disregard most other crap out there and remember you as being a great provider. They may try other lists, join and then later leave but that's all part of life and the natural cycle of learning.

      It's us as marketers who wind up seeing lots of list stuff everywhere and may feel overwhelmed at the number of people doing it, and feel like we will not be able to prosper long term.

      All I can say from my years online is that I felt like this 8+ years ago, but the same old rules still apply, and nothing has changed.

      Opportunities come and go, list owners come and go, and there are new people coming online looking for "stuff" every day so I just want to say "do not worry", and concentrate on being the best you can, develop that relationship and genuinely do all you can to help your subscribers. This will reward you for the life of your IM career.

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author sirtiman
    Don't worry about dark future of list building. Just focus about doing good quality stuff. Let your lists judge you to subscribe or unsubscribe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alice grubb
    Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post


    Quality lists are suffering because everyone one wants in. Its similar to adsense where every Joe Blogg has a blog and pastes adsense on it, and this in turn is causing ad blindness.
    the best way to stand out from the pack is to use hyper segmentation in your lists, so your emails are UBER relevant to the members. similar to what perry marshall teaches how to do with infusionsoft
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

    I am not sure if lists is a viable long term business model.
    Have you ever built a list, yourself, Anton?
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    If you continue to fish where everyone else is, ad blindness could become a problem. If you offer the same types of squeezes and the same stale PLR to get them to sign up .. before long everyone should start to expect the same reactions from their shared list.

    First offer something no one else can offer .. either a piece of you or information only you obtain.

    Then get outside of the WF and the ten or so places everyone here says to use to get traffic. There is a huge market out there. Nothing wrong with WF traffic but it is a hard row to hoe if you do not understand how to market to it.

    The outside world is a lot more forgiving.

    Troy
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  • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
    I think there is confusion due to the fact that Warriors often speak as if broad terms such as "internet marketing", or "list building" were specific business models, but they are not; they are really a set of platforms, tools, and strategies that can be used to promote about any type of business, and no business has to be limited to only that.

    List building can be done from a booth at a street fair, with people signing up on a sheet of paper, or from your website, your fanpage, or pop-ups on other peoples' login pages, and some form of it should be one of the most important focuses of any business.

    Getting attention costs money; people spend big chunks of their money on advertising so they can drive traffic and convert the traffic into sales. We all know the most expensive customer to sell is the first time buyer. So list building is mandatory for those who want the best ROI for their marketing dollar.

    The real question is how can we afford to ignore one of the juiciest, lowest hanging fruits that are well known to people in this forum, but virtually unknown to large segments of the business world that are trying to stay afloat, but with marketing that only aims to get new people in, while doing nothing to bring them back again and again? I think the answer is clear; we can't; list building will remain one of our main staples for the foreseeable future.
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  • Profile picture of the author Meinkraft
    I have to disagree with you here. I really don't see any more sustainable, long term business than e-mail marketing. No matter how many Google slaps there are, your list will never be affected and you can keep selling to them. Also, I don't know what lists you've opted-in to, but they obviously aren't building proper relationships with their subscribers if you feel like you're being spammed. Just a couple thousand loyal, buying subscribers can pay for your bills for a very long time.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      If you continue to fish where everyone else is, ad blindness could become a problem. If you offer the same types of squeezes and the same stale PLR to get them to sign up .. before long everyone should start to expect the same reactions from their shared list.

      First offer something no one else can offer .. either a piece of you or information only you obtain.

      Then get outside of the WF and the ten or so places everyone here says to use to get traffic. There is a huge market out there. Nothing wrong with WF traffic but it is a hard row to hoe if you do not understand how to market to it.

      The outside world is a lot more forgiving.

      Troy
      Okay, let's talk fishing...

      Back in the day, a couple of brothers from northern Minnesota via Chicago made a huge splash for their fledgling tackle company by barnstorming the upper Midwest and pulling amazing stringers of fish from supposedly "fished out" lakes.

      They also turned their expertise into one of the major publishing/production companies in the market.

      Lindy/Little Joe was acquired by a larger company for millions, and the InFisherman family of books, magazines, TV shows, videos and so on are still growing.

      All from Ron and Al Lindner fishing in "fished out" lakes.

      The same goes for email. 'Fish' in the same spots with the same 'lures', and the fish learn to ignore your offerings. Offer them something juicy that's a bit different, and they'll snap it up...

      As far as email fading away, there may be sexier ways to catch fish but I can still pin a worm or cricket to a hook and lob it into a local pond or canal and catch bass and panfish all day long...
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

    Honestly, I am not sure if lists is a viable long term business model. It will work in the near future, and even mid term, but I think lists are showing signs of becoming less responsive due to mass spam as everyone wants to get in on the action. .
    Please spread this to as many people as you possiblly can...

    Tell them email marketing is dead and they should do something else...

    Tell them it's a short term business model...

    Tell them it doesn't make good business sense...

    Tell them it's a waste of time...

    -----------------------------------------

    In the meantime I'll just keep building my lists and offering them value and be happy there is less competition...

    In my opinion - list building is the ONLY long term business model.

    Cheers,
    Coby
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  • Profile picture of the author rmolina88
    List Building's been around since the beginning of time when cavemen would give fish to other cavemen and would make a list of all the other cavemen who bought/exchanged from them. :p

    Now it's evolved onto the internet.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Comsider this sequence over time...

      "Do you have an email address?"


      "What's your email address?"


      "Which email address should I use?"

      While SMS has its uses, and for some of those uses may be the ideal medium, the inherent limitations will keep it as a specialty medium.

      Believe it or not, there are still people out there without smart phones and people who don't text at all. On the other hand my seventy-(mumble) mother just sent her first email the other day from her new tablet...
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      • Profile picture of the author petelta
        Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

        Hey you know what..I've got to start looking at this.

        I figured I've got 2,000 Mobile phone numbers from my Infusionsoft order form submissions.

        So I did a test the other day.

        I sent out 500 texts I had 112 people open it which equates to 22%'ish...I ended up with 5 sales that day (from pure text SMS).

        I don't know how many unsubbed, I've never sent texts before.

        I got 3 sales literally straight away. Then another 2 several hours apart.

        But, that didn't excite me much, then I go and read 95% open rate your getting?

        Are you actually making money out of it?..meaning are any significant number actually buying sh** from you?...or are you just connecting with dudes?...

        Like "Just wrote a new blog post - check it out =====>link?"

        How are you using it?...

        I'm not sending anymore out I don't think...I don't want to nause my list up, the only way I got their Mobile numbers was through my order form, which are not mandatory fields, which means they are buyers not just tyre kickers, so I don't what to crap it up.

        You know like "Wtf is going on here??"..you know what I mean?..

        95% open rate you say?...That's insane.

        That really is off the charts....can I just ask, seriously, how many did you send to get that?..was it just a couple like?..
        Text your mom right now (if she has a smart phone)... I would bet you have a 95%+ chance she opens it. It's the audience.

        You really only got a 22% open rate for text messages? That's ridiculously low. Maybe a 22% reaction rate... but I don't know many people that delete text messages before opening them.

        The point of the post was the medium effectiveness will fade over time, but the list building is the same. Ex... Text messages are opened much more then email... but emails were opened that often at one time too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyler S
    There is definitely some degree of blindness, but they're will always be new subscribers and loyal members that marketers often try to focus on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Do
    list quantity used to work pretty well. Not today. You can got deindexed easily.
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  • Profile picture of the author aarthielumalai
    No, I don't agree with you. I've been in maybe 100s of lists in the past few years, and I still join tons of lists. While I do delete most of my messages without even reading them, there are mails from certain people I take the time to read, even when I'm too busy with work and school.

    That's mainly because I know that person won't send me junk, that they are reputed in this field and that most of their mails WILL provide me some kind of value. This usually happens when I join the list after reading the person's blog, because blogs are more personal and you feel like you personally know the person from reading their blog posts. The same goes for buying the person's product.

    So, what I'm trying to say is, while there will be 100s of list builders who are just going to send junk to their subscribers, there are going to be a small percentage who'll concentrate on giving value to their subscribers, and yes, they'll stand out from the crowd. People recognize their names, and when they see a mail from them, they DO open it.

    So, spamming your list with affiliate offer after affiliate offer might not work in the future (in fact, it's already not working as well as it used to a few years ago), but building a relationship with your list and making them trust you enough that they take action on your recommendations and directions is not going to stop working anytime soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    Over saturation is always a massive concern for people in MMO. Well there are solo's and ad-swaps and tons of other stuff going on with emails. I still look at all the emails I get and learn and unsub. I buy from them to see what is out there but mainly to learn. If all they are doing is send affiliate links great.
    The point is to not be one of those people. It is to be different and that isn't that hard to do. It simply requires a discipline most don't have. No problems as long as the world economy continues to keep adding to the over work and under paid.
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