This is Steven & Floyd Fault :)

by Bev Clement 25 replies
OK Steven came up with the suggestion, and Floyd confirmed it.

Would you consider this as a service you would use?

Being able to check on another marketer to learn if they were a scammer or not.

If you would use this service how much would you pay for it?

Obviously some scammers you have to work a lot harder to find than other, so time would come into the pricing here.

Let me know what you want and how much you would pay, and we will see what could be done
#main internet marketing discussion forum #fault #floyd #steven
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  • Profile picture of the author jhongren
    Hi Bev, is this part of risk prevention for a business?

    Sorry if I misinterpreted it, I am see it as preventing future risk for my business.

    It can be some sort of how to protect my business too.

    Thanks in advance. =)
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  • Profile picture of the author Jose Delgado
    haha Officer Clement is on the loose! (or is it lose?)

    it might be a good idea BUT... :p

    where are you going to start searching them?

    there are scammers that are freaking Einsteins!
    how would you make sure they ARE scammers if you don't find Strong proof?

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  • Profile picture of the author Lou Diamond
    Hello,
    there would be many people interested in this but,
    I see many legal problems in this type of venture.
    Who will be the judge,who will say that one person is
    right or wrong.
    You just have one persons word over another.
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    Something new soon.

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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
      I know your serious about this Bev and your good at sniffing out the sucmbags who try and do scam the Warriors.

      I have no idea what I would pay for the service, sorry I wasn't more help. Be sure and check your liability before you sink a lot of time and effort into it.

      Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
      John, that is a good idea about risk prevention.

      Lou that is the problem, but in the long run it would be finding facts and figures and nothing more.

      Fact there is a long term scammer on the board at the moment. He has been behaving himself and sells here. But, there are a number of us who know who he is just not got enough proof to expose him, so we keep quiet and watch.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
        Andy I appreciate that because I had no intention of doing this, but with a few people suggesting it, I thought I would check out the feeling before doing anything with it.

        Bev
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

          Andy I appreciate that because I had no intention of doing this, but with a few people suggesting it, I thought I would check out the feeling before doing anything with it.

          Bev
          Because I've been burned badly, involving thousands of dollars, yes, I would
          most definitely pay for this service if I was thinking of doing a JV with
          somebody or using them as a mentor or consultant.

          As for the rate, I don't have any idea. I've never hired a PI so I have no
          idea what they charge.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

          Andy I appreciate that because I had no intention of doing this, but with a few people suggesting it, I thought I would check out the feeling before doing anything with it.

          Bev
          That's always a wise move. I'm not knocking you for asking. I've been burned in the past probably to the tune of over $100k but I just changed the way I do business and I don't dwell on it or give it much thought - I just work with people I have more trust for.

          Ultimately you can still always get burnt but I understand why some people would want this.

          Good luck with it though.

          If you do set something up I'll certainly support your efforts, I just would prefer to spend MY time on things with a more positive spin.

          Regards,

          Andy
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          nothing to see here.

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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
            I believe this could actually be a very valuable service for the right person or business.

            I think it would probably be more geared for the business buyout type of client.

            I was simply looking to buy a product I would just do some due diligence and that is about it.

            If I was looking to invest a substantial amount of money in to a business or other type investment this is something I may have interest in.

            Shannon
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            • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
              Self promotion here

              I have been thinking about this overnight, and here is what I am going to be doing. I am going to set up a membership site, using a blog. I will then post tips and hints about how to spot a scammer. I will give specifics that I have used and still use, and have some case studies there.

              It will be easy to start with people like Danny Wall, Richard Earl, Jordyn, and Steve Garrett as they all either are 1 person or use exactly the same tatics and home address which sort of makes it case closed.

              It will be a place for people to be warned about potential scams, and for people to ask about help in seeing if a person is a scammer.
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              • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
                Hey Bev,

                You had better charge enough for it to retain a good lawyer.

                Otherwise you are looking for trouble.

                It is one thing to be a consumer protection activist... it is another to publish a service where you take on the liability of personally declaring if someone is a scammer or not.

                However, we do have a "name and shame" section in the ablake forum though it is rarely posted to:

                "Name And Shame" Forum

                There are many scam sites that sell membership or reports or badges to belong to and I have never found any of them to be completely unbiased and not have their own agenda including the BBB here in the US.

                Also access is another issue... many people who would report issues would not get any benefit from a closed door paid service and those who joined would get only a very limited perspective.

                Having been involved in exposing some of the biggest and most controversial scammers in the IM community I believe that scammers should be publicly exposed after undeniable evidence is collected from not one but several parties.

                And I do not believe it should be done behind closed doors or that money should be paid to access the information.

                On a personal level I would not recommend anyone take it upon themselves to be involved in such things on a constant basis unless they have the personality of a robot.

                I have experienced what it feels like to be one of the only people to speak up when popular names in IM begin commiting serious crimes and at first there is denial by the community, debate, people disputing it, people impuning your character... and then slowly but surely when the truth begins to fully come to light people just say "oh well" and walk away.

                No one says thanks. No one apologizes for attacking you for exposing the truth just because they did not want to believe it. There is no glory in it... and even when the culprits are completely exposed and finally accepted as scammers there is no reward... just the next scammer to look out for.

                Its a terrible feeling to be involved in at any aspect whether the victim or the advocate and investigator. I would not recommend it to anyone... and unless you are a private detective working privately behind the scenes to help in civil and criminal cases I would not recommend trying to turn it into a for profit business.

                Though the rules here are pretty clear about not naming names... when the evidence is plentiful and the victims numerous we all know its time to out the person... in public... for free... for all the world to see lest we let our fellow warriors get taken for a ride.
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                • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
                  I'd love to think that this would be a great way for people to get advice or knowledge about a potential partner/marketer..

                  BUT...

                  I think you are opening the door to a whole load of trouble for yourself if you do run with this Bev, and whilst I think you are the only person trustworthy and savvy enough to do it here.. I don't think it would be worthwhile.. doing this on a paying level would/could lead to a whole load of issues for you..

                  Peace

                  Jay
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                  Bare Murkage.........

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                • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
                  Bev,

                  I'd be very careful about creating any service that can lay you open to being sued. With the parlous state of the legal system, you could be made bankrupt in a heartbeat by someone with a better lawyer and deeper pockets than you.

                  Another problem is that the worst scammers seem to be to be people who start out with the best intentions, but for some reason venture off into the dark side long after you first get involved with them. Perhaps their personal circumstances change, or desperation sets in.

                  Of the three people who have 'taken' me for substantial sums in the last few years, not one of them would have shown up on one of your investigations. Each was perfectly straight - and either mentored or endorsed by some of the biggest names around - at the time I came across them. But all three still turned bad and left a pile of debts to me and others.

                  You might be able to uncover them after they've gone bad, but nobody can predict the future.

                  Martin
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
                    Let me say this again. I am NOT looking at a site that would name and shame.

                    The site would be educational where people could learn to do their own due dilligence.

                    I could expand a book I already have on the subject and sell that, or I can put it inside a membership site, where people can learn and do their own due dilligence, and that can be updates as it is needed.

                    There are places already where you can name and shame, so not planning on doing that.
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                    • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
                      Hey Bev,

                      I think it would be a good service if it is purely educational. You mentioned case studies, content about how to find more information about someone that could be running scammers, etc ...

                      It sounds like it is more about how to protect oneself, and how you will show people how to look people, products, services, etc ... up so they can do that.

                      If the case studies and content don't specify names, you are pretty safe in my book.

                      Hope this helps ...


                      Mary
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                    • Profile picture of the author milan
                      Bev, I'm with Josh on this. There are difficulties to establish such a service.

                      The biggest dissadvantage is that you would have to change your mindset and focus, from positive to negative. That would affect your professional life and even your private life. It's not just something you do on the side and don't get changed. And it's hard to tell if the reward is going to be worth doing this. I cannot back up my assumptions, but I would be careful with this and do much more research to figure out the demand for such a service. It might be one of those things where people say "Very good idea" but where it comes to really using and paying for such a service.... people might not be keen to part with their money unless they got scammed 5 minutes ago, for a decent amount...

                      One of the suggestions I have to keep things safer on the legal ground is not to qualify people as scammers, non-scammers etc. Basically, just present some facts and let the readers decide themselves if they want to deal with this person. Personally, that would be more appealing to me. I would think like "I have a brain. I know there are satisfied and unsatisfied buyers of every product/service and no business/person is perfect. Give me a few facts and I'll be the judge for myself".

                      Edit: Just noticed it's not about a name'n'shame service.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                        Bev

                        I would get a disclaimer written by a very good lawyer. If somebody uses your book/service/site and still gets scammed . . . well, we know how litigious some people are.

                        I am not sure if this a valid point or not, but what would be the profile of your customers? Would they be people who see scammers everywhere or cautious business people investing in risk management?

                        If they were the former group that list would be one huge headache to manage.

                        Sorry if this seems to add to negative reaction to your idea. I think if you look at it as just another niche site that you update regularly, great. If you are going to invest a lot of time and money investigating scams I think it could hurt the rest of your business.

                        Josh made a good point. Think of all the westerns where the sheriff goes up against the bad guys alone while everyone else cowers indoors. You could be setting yourself a thankless task.

                        Martin
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                    • Profile picture of the author grumpyjacksa
                      Build it, and they will come. it will probably take a while before it catches on, and people see the value of what you offer, but ......

                      just do it.

                      even if just run on donations........

                      otherwise, write a book and sell your knowledge. offer free lifetime updates, with back end upsells as you do more research.

                      just my 0.02.......
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Duxbury
                        Bev

                        I know your intent is absolutely right but I would urge you to heed the cautions that others have given here. It is a minefield that you could be entering and one that it could be incredibly difficult to navigate.

                        However, there is something in this that I think you could offer by way of a report or whichever method you decided upon. Undertaking Due Diligence in the business world when tendering or steering through an acquisition is an area that a number of books (which are not cheap) cover in great detail. How about a Due Diligence eBook/report aimed at the small business/internet marketer?

                        Take care

                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tiger
                          Becoming a policewoman or being the private detective
                          would be a harder job than providing a service like
                          escrow dot com.


                          If someone is uneasy with dealing with a Warrior,
                          or if someone wants to have an WSO and offer you
                          as "escrow", maybe that could be an idea.


                          I admire your motives, but it seems your job would
                          be very hard to accomplish, and ( I guess ) not very
                          much pay.


                          If you offer yourself as an escrow agent for a fee
                          wouldn't that be easier ?
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                          We Get What We Settle For
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            No, I wouldn't use it. A marketer running his own business should be capable of researching those he works with and making his own judgments. Getting taken a couple of times might teach someone to stop falling for "easy money" scams. It might be the only way some figure it out.

                            I see a danger in people relying on others to tell them who they can and cannot trust and think the warnings we see here on occasion about out and out scams and questionable members is enough info.

                            I dislike the name and shame sites as it is a marketer passing judgment on other marketers - and such sites I've seen in the past have quickly moved from facts to questions to opinions. When comments are allowed, they are often rants that indicate a lack of knowledge about the product sold.

                            Don't know what would hold up in court but defending yourself against legal charges can be expensive even if you win. By setting yourself up as a judge of other marketers, you may just set yourself up for problems.

                            On the other hand, I see some value in having a "shame" section as part of a private forum or membership. In that instance it might qualify as a service to members - if it sticks to proven facts.

                            kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Sorry - Not interested.

    I'm sure those guys have reasons why they would care about this, but I personally don't really care what other people are doing as it's just a distraction from what I should be doing, and I'd consider it a waste of time.

    I wouldn't do business with anyone that I didn't trust and if for some reason I did, I would be prepared to lose the money I invested.

    I know with the recent 'incident' you highlighted in this forum that you're good at this stuff and have the disposition for it so I'm sure if people care about it, you'd be a good person to go with.

    There are plenty of well-known IMers who I would never do business with, but I wouldn't care to force my opinion of them onto anyone else, so on the same note I would take anyone elses word before making my own judgement of someone - unless a good friend gave me reason to doubt doing business with them.

    So, as for a service, I wouldn't be interested.

    But if you were doing it as a public service I might check up on your assessments just as part of due-diligence if a situation needed it, but that's just because I know I can trust your information more than most.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    The problem you have with anything like this is people reporting scammers, being scammed on legitament businesses and IMers because they did NOT read the TOS, not understand the no money back guarantee, tried to take advantage of the service and was refused, was rude and tried demanding unreasonable things then when they did not receive their demands was shown the door and then went to a service like this to vent and point to the person or business that they couldn't get over on as a scammer.

    It happens here in the warriors, blake forum, personal blogs all the time. When it is discovered that the complainer has no case and is just whining that they didn't get their way when in fact they should indeed NOT have gotten it. Warriors and Blake Forum remove the posts or edit them with the corrected information. Warriors just deletes.

    Josh mentioned legal issues. A service like this can be argued to be it's sole purpose is to hurt individuals and businesses from making a living by harming their reputations, commit liable and slander against others. AND for those that report businesses the legal issues could very easily follow through to them. What would stop one of these people or businesses that have been targeted in the service from sueing to get the list of members and targeting lawsuits all the way down the chain?

    There was a guy here in the Warriors a few years ago that pulled something like this. He actually did go through and sue people talking about him and he was able to get a list of others that he also had his lawyers attack. That is a REAL world example of legal side of things. Doesn't matter if what was said is true or not, if you purposefully create something that is to name and shame, tarnish and harm someone and put it all out there true or not, legal arguements can be made that the purpose of such a service is to do harm against others.

    I am not a lawyer but I am sure there are legal rulings and laws in effect that will support these type of claims and find those running such a service in violation.

    Also be aware that not everyone is broke. There are people that do have the resources to go after you and even internationally. Again TRUE or NOT claims against others can lead to legal responses and even if you do win the legal costs would eat up quite a bit of your resources.

    There have been things like this proposed before and thsoe that started out with good intentions were twisted and corrupted later down the line. Bias has a lot to do with it and purpose behind it.

    These are other things to consider in something like this. AND what happens when someone that is NOT a scammer gets tagged in such a service? What happens to them? Once their name is outted do you know what kind of damage that would cause?

    Take Rick Butts for example, not too long ago he "OUTED" an apparent spammer on Twitter, or so he thought. Guess what? It was NOT so and evidence as well as internet community flogging took place agaisn't Rick.

    How would your service respond to something like this Bev? What would happen to you and you rep if through all evidence YOU had that someone was a scammer and then to come find out it wasn't true?

    It is just dangerous something like this. I am not saying one way or the other on setting it up or not just that there are things that need to be taken into consideration and figured out how to deal with before going live.


    My 2 Cents.

    - Terry
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