Feel sorry for WSO' sellers.

11 years ago

It's true.

The WSO market attracts a lot of ungreatful buyers and we as WSO creators have to take a little of the blame for that. If you keep lowering the price and raising the value expectation then this was always bound to happen. A market that is ungreatful and expect the world for nothing. Gladly though, they are the minority and there are still a LOT of greatful customers out there.

Focus on the good as the bad come and go very quickly.

Those complaining they haven't got a refund over the Christmas break need to get a grip on things as they clearly do not understand how a normal business operates and their expectations are unreasonable. Time those people had a reality check me thinks.

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Alexa Smith Banned 11 years ago

Yes, clearly it's true.

Originally Posted by WillR

we as WSO creators have to take a little of the blame for that.

Yes; also true.

Over the last 4 years that I've been here, the WSO sellers, collectively, have gradually but inexorably trained their market more or less only to buy cheap stuff. And people who buy only cheap stuff are always the most demanding and unrealistic. It may be that WSO sellers have created the market they deserve. To some extent.

Originally Posted by WillR

If you keep lowering the price and raising the value expectation then this was always bound to happen.

Exactly so.

I've never done a WSO and have no plans to. If I ever did, it would be very fully, openly and honestly described, and refunds would not be offered.
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

They can cure that problem easily by not offering refunds. Simple.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They can cure that problem easily by not offering refunds. Simple.

It's good business practice to offer refunds (I think). My chats with Paypal risk department have especially re-enforced this for me. They like customers to have some form of recourse if things do not go as expected.

The problem isn't offering the refunds, the problem is the unreasonable expectation of the buyer. The business might be more than happy to honor the refund but to not understand people are possibly having a few days off to celebrate Christmas is a bit unfair.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

It's good business practice to offer refunds (I think). My chats with Paypal risk department have especially re-enforced this for me. They like customers to have some form of recourse if things do not go as expected.

The problem isn't offering the refunds, the problem is the unreasonable expectation of the buyer. The business might be more than happy to honor the refund but to not understand people are possibly having a few days off to celebrate Christmas is a bit unfair.

My products don't raise unreasonable expectations. A buyer knows exactly what they are getting and there are no promises made. I don't publicize a refund policy ever. That way, should the rare buyer ask for one, it's up to me whether or not to give it. Clearly, if they've just downloaded 44 blogs or an entire ecommerce site with extensions, they're not going to get it and if they file a dispute, I escalate it to a claim and provide screenshots of their purchase and their downloading and I normally win the dispute.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

My products don't raise unreasonable expectations. A buyer knows exactly what they are getting and there are no promises made. I don't publicize a refund policy ever. That way, should the rare buyer ask for one, it's up to me whether or not to give it. Clearly, if they've just downloaded 44 blogs or an entire ecommerce site with extensions, they're not going to get it and if they file a dispute, I escalate it to a claim and provide screenshots of their purchase and their downloading and I normally win the dispute.

Refund policies do NOT always have to be straight out change of mind refund policies, contrary to popular belief.

A lot of my refund policies are 'It Works As Advertised' type refund policies that only guarantee a piece of software or a plugin work as advertised on the sales page. That gives the buyer and the payment processor the piece of mind they need but it also means if any one contacts me for a refund, I point them back to that refund policy and ask them to show me how my product is not working before I will process any refund. If the product does not work as advertised then I will happily refund them but if it's a change of mind type refund then I will not. If they kick up a stink all I need do is show the published refund policy to my payment processor. This virtually never happens.

Refund policies are good for all involved I think. You just need to word them correctly and in a way that people can't just take you for a ride if they change their mind.

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bluecoyotemedia

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They can cure that problem easily by not offering refunds. Simple.

sbucciarel

happy holidays

truthfully your refund policy does NOT matter.

if the product or support does NOT live up to the hype.

I will refund absolutely.

I spend about $5000 a year on WSO's and to be quite honest. I think I have even bought a few items from you LOL ( obviously we never had any issues so you fall in that 25%)

but to say that there are NO REFUNDS is simply untrue.

i would say 75% of the WSO's are terrible rehashed info. or the developers create plugins and abandon them later leaving people in a lurch.

the other 25% have been excellent.

I have never NOT been refunded and if I had any resistance from the seller I just go to my bank and place a charge back. simple enough

I understand there are people that just try and get things for free and I appreciate that but I am NOT one of them so it has nothing to do with me.

eddie

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia

sbucciarel

happy holidays

truthfully your refund policy does NOT matter.

if the product or support does NOT live up to the hype.

I will refund absolutely.

I spend about $5000 a year on WSO's and to be quite honest. I think I have even bought a few items from you LOL ( obviously we never had any issues so you fall in that 25%)

but to say that there are NO REFUNDS is simply untrue.

i would say 75% of the WSO's are terrible rehashed info. or the developers create plugins and abandon them later leaving people in a lurch.

the other 25% have been excellent.

I have never NOT been refunded and if I had any resistance from the seller I just go to my bank and place a charge back. simple enough

I understand there are people that just try and get things for free and I appreciate that but I am NOT one of them so it has nothing to do with me.

eddie

I didn't actually say no refunds ... period. I went on to explain that I have no published refund policy, which is a deterrent to a lot of people who buy with the intent to commit refund fraud... people looking to get the product for free. Not having the published refund policy puts me in charge of who I refund and who I don't. I also mentioned that I don't have a refund problem and that I have won Paypal disputes from those who I believe fall into the "fraud refunds" category. The bulk of my customers are happy and are not crooks.

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James Campbell 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia

I have never NOT been refunded and if I had any resistance from the seller I just go to my bank and place a charge back. simple enough

So what you're saying is that if you feel a product is crap, despite them saying that there are NO refunds you perpetrate a fraudulent chargeback.

Nice.
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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia

sbucciarel

happy holidays

truthfully your refund policy does NOT matter.

if the product or support does NOT live up to the hype.

I will refund absolutely.

Why purchase products based on hype? You do know you don't have to purchase anything.

I spend about $5000 a year on WSO's and to be quite honest. I think I have even bought a few items from you LOL ( obviously we never had any issues so you fall in that 25%)

but to say that there are NO REFUNDS is simply untrue.

I fight every chargeback that I received which isn't many. In fact, I am seriously thinking of taking legal action even if it would be a waste of time. I can't see you winning any chargebacks unless you tell them you never purchased the product.

Lying would make you a liar.

i would say 75% of the WSO's are terrible rehashed info. or the developers create plugins and abandon them later leaving people in a lurch.

One of the reasons I don't purchase certain products. You see, I took responsibility for my actions and only purchase things that I know I can make use out of.

As for software, that is what people get when they purchase a $7 plugin with lifetime upgrades. It doesn't work out very well, does it?

I have never NOT been refunded and if I had any resistance from the seller I just go to my bank and place a charge back. simple enough

Simple enough if you lie and deny making the transactions. I haven't been to a bank that will allow a person to use it to refund "I didn't like the product" types of scenarios on a consistent basis.

What do you tell the bank when you run to them and ask for a chargeback?

I understand there are people that just try and get things for free and I appreciate that but I am NOT one of them so it has nothing to do with me.

It sounds like you refund 75% of your purchases. That says more about you than the sellers.

I don't offer refunds anymore. I will fight those the try to circumvent that policy unless there is a very valid reason. I win most cases ( I got rid of most of the problem buyers by selling higher priced products), even the ones that lie and say they never purchased. I love IP addresses.

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Tom B Banned 11 years ago

Sellers can alleviate a lot of these problems by selling higher priced products. I found the lower the price, the more entitled buyers with unrealistic expectations.

The higher the price, a higher quality buyer that is much more fun to work with.
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Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia

i would say 75% of the WSO's are terrible rehashed info.

Eddie, how do you define "rehashed" info?

I ask because I think many, if not most people, use it inappropriately. They buy a basic course and there's nothing new so they use the term "rehashed" in a derogatory way. Truth is, with most courses you will have beginners buying your product. You'd be doing them a terrible disservice if you didn't cover the basics.

If 75% of the stuff your buying is stuff you already know, maybe it's time for you to do less buying and take more action?
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- Tom B Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill
  
  If 75% of the stuff your buying is stuff you already know, maybe it's time for you to do less buying and take more action?
  
  Dennis, I have heard that advice many times and consider it rehashed. I will be contacting my bank.
  
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  Dennis Gaskill 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  Dennis, I have heard that advice many times and consider it rehashed. I will be contacting my bank.
  
  Wow ... your bank is open on Sunday? That's a darn good bank!
  
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  James Campbell 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill
  
  Wow ... your bank is open on Sunday? That's a darn good bank!
  
  One of mine is. They use it as a "feature/benefit" when selling you on using them
  
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BIG Mike Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia

truthfully your refund policy does NOT matter.

I beg to differ - a refund policy (assuming it was stated on the sales page) is legally binding at the time of sale on both buyer and seller.

I mentioned this in another post - it's important to have a clearly stated refund policy as the first step in protecting yourself.

I have never NOT been refunded and if I had any resistance from the seller I just go to my bank and place a charge back. simple enough

That's only because a lot of sellers tend to mishandle charge backs, mainly because they do not realize that they can be disputed and reversed with credit card companies.

Like Thomas, I always fight them and get nearly all of them reversed in my favor.

A lot of buyers tend to misuse the charge back system as well - often putting themselves at risk of having their cc account terminated for fraud, which I assume becomes part of their credit report in some countries.

Something I find ironic is that, despite all the complaints sellers make about PayPal, they will generally go to bat for a merchant who disputes a charge back.

As sellers (read that mainly newer Internet Marketers) learn and understand the system better, the threat of charge backs is negligible is they have all their ducks in a row.
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- VegasVince 11 years ago
  
  Prior to the new "dime sale" method of pushing WSO's , I put out a total of 3 in 5 years. Each of them did at least 10K or more.
  
  None of them were cheap and some capped out at $297. (Yeah people really will spend that kind of money on the Warrior Forum or at least they did once upon a time.)
  
  Point being......our refund requests were a lot LOWER then the numbers I'm hearing from several dime sellers. Granted a lot of of savvy warriors are crushing it with this new "cheaper" WSO presentation. At the same time, however, sometimes when you create the monster you end up getting bitten in the ass.
  
  Perhaps this is in part because a "dime sale" creates a "dime sale mentality" and brings out the certified serial refund peeps en masse.
  
  For those with the time and patience to deal with that.....more power to ya. But it sure aint for me.
  
  p.s. I do agree there are certain well known serial refunders on the Warrior Forum..who have become almost legendary. We handled them rather simply.....we chose to refund them and never send the product. And told them why.
  
  XXX
  Vegas Vince
  
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Greg guitar

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They can cure that problem easily by not offering refunds. Simple.

True, but this would go against my "inner Jay Abraham", so I would suffer the frivolous refunds in order to reap the marketing advantages of "risk reversal"; one of his favorite phrases. The problem of less sales would imo, outweigh the problem of a certain percentage of the refunds being for silly reasons, or "serial" in nature.

I would always have a guarantee, but I think it's particularly critical if you are selling a method involving "secrets" so that people need to buy to find out the details. Why should they buy knowing that it might be something that doesn't fit them at all, and they will be stuck with the purchase regardless?

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Joan Altz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

True, but this would go against my "inner Jay Abraham", so I would suffer the frivolous refunds in order to reap the marketing advantages of "risk reversal"; one of his favorite phrases. The problem of less sales would imo, outweigh the problem of a certain percentage of the refunds being for silly reasons, or "serial" in nature.

I would always have a guarantee, but I think it's particularly critical if you are selling a method involving "secrets" so that people need to buy to find out the details. Why should they buy knowing that it might be something that doesn't fit them at all, and they will be stuck with the purchase regardless?

Lol. I posted my reply after reading a few posts on the front page and didn't see yours until just now. Jay Abraham knows his stuff beyond stuff, so I agree totally. I'm not backing off "no-questions-asked" refunds, even with a lot of serial refunders lurking about.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

True, but this would go against my "inner Jay Abraham", so I would suffer the frivolous refunds in order to reap the marketing advantages of "risk reversal"; one of his favorite phrases. The problem of less sales would imo, outweigh the problem of a certain percentage of the refunds being for silly reasons, or "serial" in nature.

I would always have a guarantee, but I think it's particularly critical if you are selling a method involving "secrets" so that people need to buy to find out the details. Why should they buy knowing that it might be something that doesn't fit them at all, and they will be stuck with the purchase regardless?

I agree completely that it's best to have a refund policy if you are selling a "method" or "secrets". I don't sell methods or secrets. I sell websites and graphic design services primarily. They can see what they're getting with their own eyes before they order. So again, not having a published policy puts me in control of who to refund and who not to refund and it's not hard to tell a genuine request from the ha ha I got all your websites now give me my money back requests.

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Gengis

11 years ago

On My last wso a guy emailed me for a refund in the morning, by early afternoon he posted on the wso about me not responding to him etc.. I wasn't even online til that night.

Anyways, I have many examples and it's like you said.. Some wso customers are a joke.

I have contemplated about the no refund policy but all the books I've read on marketing and direct response marketing tell me to always have a strong refund policy so it stops me from not having one every time...

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internetmarketer1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gengis

On My last wso a guy emailed me for a refund in the morning, by early afternoon he posted on the wso about me not responding to him etc.. I wasn't even online til that night.

Anyways, I have many examples and it's like you said.. Some wso customers are a joke.

I have contemplated about the no refund policy but all the books I've read on marketing and direct response marketing tell me to always have a strong refund policy so it stops me from not having one every time...

Same thing happened to me. The most annoying thing is that the guy posted it right after I did my first bump, so my second bump didn't generate that much revenue except for a couple of extra sales. I did get my $40, but it is so annoying how some people would such a thing.

Anyways, Happy Holidays everyone!

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squadron

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Gengis

On My last wso a guy emailed me for a refund in the morning, by early afternoon he posted on the wso about me not responding to him etc.. I wasn't even online til that night.

Anyways, I have many examples and it's like you said.. Some wso customers are a joke.

I have contemplated about the no refund policy but all the books I've read on marketing and direct response marketing tell me to always have a strong refund policy so it stops me from not having one every time...

Maybe you could have 2 prices for the same offer. A lower price for no-refund and 25% to 50% more for refund option? The tight son's of bitches who usually ask for refunds will then have a choice.

Airlines do this all the time with tickets, pay up to 100% more if you want the flexibility to change flights

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by squadron

Maybe you could have 2 prices for the same offer. A lower price for no-refund and 25% to 50% more for refund option? The tight son's of bitches who usually ask for refunds will then have a choice.

Airlines do this all the time with tickets, pay up to 100% more if you want the flexibility to change flights

I think you will make a few people angry with that scenario. I have had people complain about me offering a sale a year after they purchased.

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ltrain_riders

11 years ago

You get what you pay for, however, it sounds like people want the world without paying for it. I can see offering a refund on software that isn't compatible or doesn't work, such as buying a WordPress plugin for your non-WP site, or buggy software, but providing a refund on an ebook providing money making information is kind of crazy.

"it's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately" - Anyone who says this should not be refunded in my opinion. This sounds like somebody who is searching for ideas. If you're buying WSO's for ideas then that's probably not the most cost effective way to go about things. These people should be buying WSO's because they relate to what they are currently working on and need additional ideas/methods to further their success.

EDIT: WSO sellers have lives too and cannot work 24/7. Maybe sellers should include a disclaimer saying "please allow at least X amount of business days for refunds to be processed".

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Icanwrite

11 years ago

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Folks moan about WSO's and often rightly so but SOME WSO customers are a joke, moaning about having to wait 24 hours over a holiday for $7 or requesting refunds because they "won't use it", why is THAT the WSO sellers fault?

People need to get a grip, it's quite clear in the description what the WSO is about , if you don't want to do video marketing why buy a WSO on video marketing. Far to many serial refunders about.

Jeez, glad I don't sell WSO's must be infuriating at times.

I totally agree with you. I run a lot of WSO's I have over 20 running now.
Not only is there too many serial refunders about, but I saw a HUGE
increase in refunds 2 weeks before Christmas. Not cool !

Customers online often treat you like a faceless nobody that "doesn't matter"
when you run WSO's that's for sure.
I have been on the fence about the "no refunds" policy for a while,
but I agree with the posts above. It's not recommended and usually
hurts your sales.

I am considering doing a "guaranteed install" for my PHP scripts,
so that way I am still offering a good guarantee that proves I care
about my customers and their success using my product....
but will no longer offer cash refunds because of the people that say
"I'm not going to use this" and want their money back and keep my scripts.

I also agree with the comments that the cheap product prices
attract bitchin' and complaining more than a higer price.
I have seen this first hand by selling a product of mine on sale.
The people that got it for next to nothing complained and expected
me to jump through a lot of hoops for them, where the people that
paid full price ( a LOT more ) didn't complain at all or expect anything
"extra" from what I offered in the WSO.

Over-all I like doing WSO's and have success with them,
and the good customers make it worth while. Fortunately
there are more good then bad, however I have seen a steady
increase in refunds. A sign of the times I suppose....
And that's why I'm considering a new refund policy for WSO's.

Bottom line, you're right. People need to stop expecting MORE MORE MORE,
for LESS LESS LESS.
But I also agree with the comments about
" we train the customers to act this way "
I think there is a lot of truth behind that. I'm just not sure what to do about it.

Any suggestions ??

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David Micheal

11 years ago

There are buyer that like to make money online but don't want to invest. They buy and they ask refund. Not all people do that, only a few.

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Lambert Klein

11 years ago

It goes both ways. Some WSOs are pretty sorry.

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Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lambert Klein

It goes both ways. Some WSOs are pretty sorry.

It would be fair to say , everybody is more than aware of that fact.
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Icanwrite

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lambert Klein

It goes both ways. Some WSOs are pretty sorry.

Agreed ! Happened to me more than once

Being a WSO seller in past, I would sympathize with sellers and on the other hand would even want them to have the integrity to reply to pm's/emails/ thread comments atleast once a day or two.. if not more . it just helps people keep faith in the biz !

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Lambert,

It goes both ways. Some WSOs are pretty sorry.

That's true, but it doesn't have anything to do with the OP's point. Well, except that the nastier element uses it as an excuse to justify their ignorant behavior.

On the other other hand, the refund rate here is substantially lower than most other marketplaces in the IM field. According to Mike Lantz, it's around 2% for offers through W+. Try that on Clickbank for an online business product...

The real challenge isn't the number. It's the strident tone some folks have when dealing with other people in this industry. The entitlement mentality in this industry is easily the worst I've ever seen.

As an example, I'm dealing with an issue now where a customer is ready to go to war over something so trivial he could have fixed it with literally 10 minutes of personal effort (and learned a critical online business skill in the process). But he's going to end up spending 8 or 10 HOURS of time on it, just to "prove" that he's right and the seller is wrong.

And he is absolutely certain that refusing to allow him to destroy a seller's reputation and livelihood over his own inability to install a working theme using FTP is proof of "aiding and abetting fraud."

There aren't a lot of such people even in this market, but they're loud, demanding, and persistent.

The concepts of balance and personal responsibility are completely foreign to these folk.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It's the strident tone some folks have when dealing with other people in this industry. The entitlement mentality in this industry is easily the worst I've ever seen.

This about sums up what I've seen in this guys WSO thread.

A total misunderstanding of what their $7 friggen lousy bucks buys them. It seems to me some seem to think it gives them a share in the sellers soul.

Moaning he didn't refund them on boxing day, moaning twice in the space of 2 days, they didn't get exactly what they wanted, moaning they won't use it, so refund them.

Strewth, why am I utterly convinced the $7 refund winging crew will never make more than a dime a day irrelevant.

The concepts of balance and personal responsibility are completely foreign to these folk.

Ok, better phrasing than my OP, that about sums it up.

Reminds me of a now infamous retort from the boss at Blizzard, the guys who own world of warcraft.

Some nerd moaning on the forums about what he "Should" get for his $8 a month and why Blizzard are crooks for not instantly implementing his ideas to make the game easier.

To which a message from on high was passed down.

Your $8 lets you play the game, it doesn't put you on the board of directors, if you think you can do better, we've cancelled your account, refunded your $8 which you can now put towards creating your own online game.

We are keen to see your results..

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

And he is absolutely certain that refusing to allow him to destroy a seller's reputation and livelihood over his own inability to install a working theme using FTP is proof of "aiding and abetting fraud."

There aren't a lot of such people even in this market, but they're loud, demanding, and persistent.

The concepts of balance and personal responsibility are completely foreign to these folk.

Paul

Well said Paul. Sorry you have to deal with idiots like your example here.
That's just cRaZy ~ !

Happy new year.
Jeff

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Gijsbertus 11 years ago

We could stretch this thread towards fiverr gigs et all ( if you allow me) I had 3 gig requests in 2 days - not buying but having a sample first ! Not one of them bought ... was the sample bad ? I don't think so, was the gig description not o k ? I don't think so...

Maybe there's simply to much out there ? People are getting gready and overdemanding ?

Or did we just ''take the money and run'' to much ?

Other example = I offered a flyer design completely free to a Craigslist poster (for the opening of a nightclub) it was turned down since it was only a one-sided design :confused: I should have done a double sided ...

Anyhow, let's keep up the ''good work'' and cherish the ''good customers''...

Good luck to all
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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Jeff,

That's just cRaZy ~ !

You want to see crazy? I just fielded a report about a guy who privately admitted to having a pirated copy of a WSO and publicly demanded help with the installation in the WSO thread itself. The idea being, of course, to pressure the seller to give help to someone who stole from him, under threat of losing sales to the thief's public complaints.

The username part of the dude's email address (not exact, so don't try to figure the real one out) was along the lines of illeffingcutyu. Only more rude.

This place has a very small percentage of very sick critters in it. Pretty much standard for any community with hundreds of thousands of people...

Paul

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi,

Just my opinion -

Some of the refund requests are due to buyer's remorse because the product is either no good, or was mis-sold - but many people, even when they feel duped, don't want to go down the road of explaining that the real reason is one of the above (due to the seller feeling compelled to argue the case) so they make up a reason for the refund - hence some of the weird reasons for refund requests.

Secondly, a lot of sellers seem to be drawn to a certain type of copywriting that attracts dreamers - so that they can sell them the dream. For those people (I'm not aiming at anyone in particular here) it's not too clever to then complain afterwards that they are getting customers/refunders who are 'difficult' with unrealistic expectations - you wanted to attract the dreamers, right?

You get what you target. If you are attracting the wrong type of prospects, is it not better to adjust your marketing (or change marketing channel completely) than to come here and criticise your customers/prospects or the WSO marketplace, which in reality is in effect simply criticising your own marketing/targetting abilities?

OP -

People need to get a grip

I agree, but if they do get a grip, a hell of a lot of WSO sellers are going to have actually sell rather than letting the images of sports cars, mansions and yachts coupled with unrealistic earnings claims and blind copy do the selling for them.

A total misunderstanding of what their $7 friggen lousy bucks buys them. It seems to me some seem to think it gives them a share in the sellers soul.

If you examine some of the hyped-up copy, you'll see that the $7 friggen lousy product was sold as containing a lifetimes supply of souls, which may be why the buyer expected such.

Seriously - yes, the buyers must be crazy for believing that they will actually get so much for $7, but it's worth noting that the reason for expecting this much in the first place was often because that was what they were told in the salesletter.

It's not a chicken and egg situation - the salesletter came first.

............

While there's a fair bit of irony on both sides of the discussion here, I don't think any of it can compete with Zuckerberg's sister.

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Gerald Arno

Banned 11 years ago

You get the most satisfied customers if the language of your sales page and product are consistent, and you are not trying to be deceptive. Deception may work well to get the first sale, but it rarely works to get the repeat sale.

Clarity is essential. Your buyer won't even know whether your sales page was "truthful" until he is actually reading through your product. Deceptive marketing leads to a lot of issues and you reach the exact opposite of what you want.

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

Just my opinion -

Some of the refund requests are due to buyer's remorse because the product is either no good, or was mis-sold - but many people, even when they feel duped, don't want to go down the road of explaining that the real reason is one of the above (due to the seller feeling compelled to argue the case) so they make up a reason for the refund - hence some of the weird reasons for refund requests.

Secondly, a lot of sellers seem to be drawn to a certain type of copywriting that attracts dreamers - so that they can sell them the dream. For those people (I'm not aiming at anyone in particular here) it's not too clever to then complain afterwards that they are getting customers/refunders who are 'difficult' with unrealistic expectations - you wanted to attract the dreamers, right?

You get what you target. If you are attracting the wrong type of prospects, is it not better to adjust your marketing (or change marketing channel completely) than to come here and criticise your customers/prospects or the WSO marketplace, which in reality is in effect simply criticising your own marketing/targetting abilities?

OP - I agree, but if they do get a grip, a hell of a lot of WSO sellers are going to have actually sell rather than letting the images of sports cars, mansions and yachts coupled with unrealistic earnings claims and blind copy do the selling for them.

If you examine some of the hyped-up copy, you'll see that the $7 friggen lousy product was sold as containing a lifetimes supply of souls, which may be why the buyer expected such.

Seriously - yes, the buyers must be crazy for believing that they will actually get so much for $7, but it's worth noting that the reason for expecting this much in the first place was often because that was what they were told in the salesletter.

It's not a chicken and egg situation - the salesletter came first.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Secondly, a lot of sellers seem to be drawn to a certain type of copywriting that attracts dreamers - so that they can sell them the dream. For those people (I'm not aiming at anyone in particular here) it's not too clever to then complain afterwards that they are getting customers/refunders who are 'difficult' with unrealistic expectations - you wanted to attract the dreamers, right?

This is a very good point exrat.
I think this is part of the learning curve though.
Everyone does this when they start out, because it's what they see.
Monkey see, Monkey do. Especially vendors that are not good copy writers
and tend to follow "form letters" or templates for sales copy.

You have to also consider that most people starting out with internet marketing
jump right on the "make money online" niches which are hard to nail.

So they have the "dream" in their head already before finding the WF
and buying products. Most "dreamers" are actually freebie seekers
that have found some tiny bit if inspiration to "buy into IM"
and so they take a small risk first. Perhaps $7.

Then it feels like they "finally made a HUGE investment" in order to
"kick start" their "over night riches" , but in the vendor's eyes it's a $7 ebook
with some darn good info for anyone that is ready to take it for what it is.

So there's a bit of both there I think.

cheers

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W.P. Allen

11 years ago

Why not just start charging what the products are actually worth? So much time and effort goes into the creation of a product to then just turn around and sell it for 5 bucks.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by W.P. Allen

Why not just start charging what the products are actually worth? So much time and effort goes into the creation of a product to then just turn around and sell it for 5 bucks.

No clue, I don't get involved the WSO section, can't think of anything worse, but I presume based on others comments here that the reason is quantity shifted at low front end pricing. That and the entire WSO section has backed itself into a corner by offering the world for $5 and now can't generate serious sales numbers with higher pricing.

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W.P. Allen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

No clue, I don't get involved the WSO section, can't think of anything worse, but I presume based on others comments here that the reason is quantity shifted at low front end pricing. That and the entire WSO section has backed itself into a corner by offering the world for $5 and now can't generate serious sales numbers with higher pricing.

Why not some kind of quality control and set pricing structure?

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Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago

Originally Posted by W.P. Allen

Why not some kind of quality control and set pricing structure?

I believe this has been discussed at length many times.

The cost of QC'ing the sheer volume of WSO's and indeed constantly finding the correct expertise to QC a large variety of WSO methods is cost prohibitive, otherwise the WF would do so.

Their aim is to make the WF as useful a platform as possible for marketers but the line has to be drawn somewhere in terms of what they can do in regards issues like this.

I guess overall, caveat emptor, in cases where consumers are duped, you do have to ask why a consumer believes somebody who's making $150k per month "guaranteed" is giving away his entire method for $19.......
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Anomalous 11 years ago

I've requested a refund on one WSO I bought, out of about 20. It was a couple of jokers that slapped together a 10 page PDF and a video about their super secret untapped traffic source.

Turns out they were doing nothing more then saying, "Hey, you should try out Infolinks!" They then proceeded to demonstrate the massive traffic you could get with 2 cent clicks using a keyword like "facebook."

These are the sort of WSO sellers that should expect refund requests. Fraud is what fraud does!
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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

.

If you examine some of the hyped-up copy, you'll see that the $7 friggen lousy product was sold as containing a lifetimes supply of souls, which may be why the buyer expected such.

That wasn't the issue in this scenario, see OP.

Purchasers even stipulated product was good, they just wouldn't use it...

Putting that aside, the WSO section is one huge hypefest with few exceptions, it needs clearing up and then some but I guess the reality is that simply isn't feasable for many practical reasons.

Some de hyped verbiage probably might help in cases where it's applicable, although possibly not.

If you're the type who will nag a guy twice in a day for your desperate $7 despite the product being perfectly solid you have to wonder if they would do so irrelevant of the sales copy, especially when they state the product was good but they just wouldn't use it.

That doesn't sound like somebody who got caught up in the hype.

All your above points have merit and lets face it are MORE than well known , probably discussed 100000x in various posts, you'll find no disagreement that serious numbers of WSO sellers need to improve their marketing but that's not really what THIS specific scenario related to.

This is really about absurdly unreasonable demanding wastes of space -- to my mind anyway.

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Kezz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jeff,You want to see crazy? I just fielded a report about a guy who privately admitted to having a pirated copy of a WSO and publicly demanded help with the installation in the WSO thread itself. The idea being, of course, to pressure the seller to give help to someone who stole from him, under threat of losing sales to the thief's public complaints.

The username part of the dude's email address (not exact, so don't try to figure the real one out) was along the lines of illeffingcutyu. Only more rude.

This place has a very small percentage of very sick critters in it. Pretty much standard for any community with hundreds of thousands of people...

Paul

This is exactly why I have my support services available via a Membership system and never via the thread or PM. To access the system, people just have to send in their purchase details via a form and then they can access support as well as updates and other perks.

Because while it's pretty hard to stop people stealing your products, you can stop them stealing your time, your updates, the perks meant for real customers, and hence effectively stealing from your real customers by leaching from what they have paid to make possible.

Occasionally people get grumpy that they have to send in their purchase info before accessing support, but most people totally understand the reasons why.

And it's no coincidence that more than once people who have "issues" that don't sound like something that should occur, due to my knowledge of what I've created, never go through to verify their purchase when I refer them to support.

With this approach I make sure I protect not only myself, but first and foremost my real and legitimate customers.

People that steal from you are also in effect stealing from your true supporters, and I find this verification process is a good way to keep that effect down to an absolute minimum.

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kezz

This is exactly why I have my support services available via a Membership system and never via the thread or PM. To access the system, people just have to send in their purchase details via a form and then they can access support as well as updates and other perks.

Great info, thanks. I have wondered why, when asking the simplest questions, people are told to go to the support desk.

I think this needs to be stated up front more often, as the impression is (and I thought this too at one time) is that the seller is trying to avoid public controversy or exposure of how difficult their product is to use or how low it actually performs so keeping all the "help" in-house means less negative press out there. If people knew why you did this the way you did it, they'd appreciate it more.

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sovereignn

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The username part of the dude's email address (not exact, so don't try to figure the real one out) was along the lines of illeffingcutyu. Only more rude.
Paul

HAH what a stand up citizen wow...

People like that make me glad this forum is no longer free to join

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Young Financier

11 years ago

"It's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately"
Wtf.....people expect to be refunded because of that? If you refund a person for any of those reasons listed above, you're better than me. IMO, there shouldn't be an option to refund digital books. But that's just my opinion.

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Gerald Arno

Banned 11 years ago

Don't worry. The people who are complaining about how they wasted $7 for an information product are the same people who are complaining about their spouse. Totally unthinkable.

If the WSO doesn't offer a refund, then there is no refund. Period. You (the buyer) has to accept the seller's rules before you commit to the purchase.

Regardless of whether there is a money back guarantee or not, I don't understand how you can ever ask for a refund (unless you didn't receive your product or got something entirely different than what you've paid for).

Don't ask for a refund, unless it's clearly stated in the WSO sales page that there IS a refund.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by GeraldGigerl

If the WSO doesn't offer a refund, then there is no refund. Period. You (the buyer) has to accept the seller's rules before you commit to the purchase.

Regardless of whether there is a money back guarantee or not, I don't understand how you can ever ask for a refund (unless you didn't receive your product or got something entirely different than what you've paid for).

Don't ask for a refund, unless it's clearly stated in the WSO sales page that there IS a refund.

There's a lot of truth in what ExRat said and that's probably one of the reasons that I don't see much of a refund problem. Like I said, I don't publish a refund policy. That doesn't mean that I don't ever give a refund. Obviously, I won't say what criteria will get one, but not having a published one allows me to make that decision.

I sort of design my products with "dreamer repellant" built in. Pricing, lack of claims, lack of instant glowing testimonials from people who have barely had time to download and lack of a published refund policy all go into a strategy to attract buyers who are ready for a particular product rather than just looking for the big promises of lots of moola real fast without much work involved.

Obviously, a lot of people here make a lot more money catering to the dreamer market than I do and I'm really fine with that.

Secondly, a lot of sellers seem to be drawn to a certain type of copywriting that attracts dreamers - so that they can sell them the dream. For those people (I'm not aiming at anyone in particular here) it's not too clever to then complain afterwards that they are getting customers/refunders who are 'difficult' with unrealistic expectations - you wanted to attract the dreamers, right?

Originally Posted by Lambert Klein

There were some great WSOs on here, but the problem is that you can't weed out the bad ones. You aren't allowed to complain about them..

This forum does bias the seller. That's why I stopped buying a couple years ago.

If you give bad feedback your post is deleted.

I haven't noticed that myself. There are tons of WSOs that have negative feedback that isn't deleted. Depends on whether or not you bought the product and whether or not your remarks are fair and objective.

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Lambert Klein

11 years ago

There were some great WSOs on here, but the problem is that you can't weed out the bad ones. You aren't allowed to complain about them..

This forum does bias the seller. That's why I stopped buying a couple years ago.

If you give bad feedback your post is deleted.

I only posted negative post a couple times in the many years here and they were deleted.

Most other companies give the buyer more protection.

Besides that there's a lot of good info here. I just stay away from sellers unless I know I can trust them.

BTW I only asked for a refund once out of the many that were bad. I was denied.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Lambert,

If you give bad feedback your post is deleted.

That's total BS. Parrot-speak, and you're way too smart for that.

If you really believe that, do yourself a favor and examine the evidence. Go through the WSOs with 3 or more pages of comments and look to see how many negative reviews there are.

I'll wager there are hundreds of thousands of undeleted negative comments about various products, ranging from "not thrilled" to "total scam," interspersed among the nearly 50,000 offers in the WSO section.

Most other companies give the buyer more protection.

How much 'protection' does a newspaper offer to people who buy from their classified ads? Or TV stations, when someone buys from an infomercial?

We go to bat for customers of advertisers here more times in most weeks than a newspaper or TV station will in their entire existence.

Paul

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I'll wager there are hundreds of thousands of undeleted negative comments about various products, ranging from "not thrilled" to "total scam," interspersed among the nearly 50,000 offers in the WSO section.How much 'protection' does a newspaper offer to people who buy from their classified ads? Or TV stations, when someone buys from an infomercial?

We go to bat for customers of advertisers here more times in most weeks than a newspaper or TV station will in their entire existence.

Paul

100% accurate.

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Gerald Arno

Banned 11 years ago

@Paul

Yeah, I've gotten to know how analytical you are when it comes to deleting comments. You won't ever delete a comment without having evidence of something.

The person making this vague statement may see his own incident as an overall reality. It's just not true.

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Zeus66

11 years ago

I almost didn't post this because I don't want to be "that guy," but what the hell...

It's part of doing business in this niche and on this forum. We're all faced daily with demands on our precious time. I think you have to live by that old saw, "pick your battles." I choose not to make refund requests a time sucker.

To each his own, but they are pretty few and far between (assuming you don't use unethical sales tactics, in which case you get what you deserve). Consider it a cost of doing business in this arena and don't lose more than 10 seconds of your time to giving them their money back.

That's my 2 cents in the jar.

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agmccall 11 years ago

Just a quick question regarding refunds for WSO's

If I was to do a WSO could I set up a refund policy of 60 days but you are not eligible for the refund until you have used it for 30 days. This would give the honest buyer a sense of security while at the same time discouraging most of the serial refunders.

Al
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Corey Geer

11 years ago

If you're going to be in business for yourself, you need to be available whenever a customer wants you available, not on your schedule.

Yes, it's pathetic that people are scum and want to get free products, especially for the price of a McDonalds meal but it's also pathetic that people continuously buy this stuff up... Including a "money back guarantee" on a $5, $7 or even $27 just ensures that your head will explode in a couple of days.

I've seen popular WSOs with "no refund" what so ever stated in their sales pitch.

As far as not responding in a timely manner.. hell... most people I meet on here do that when it's not a Holiday. I have a guy I haven't heard from in 2 months, one that takes days to get into Skype and respond every time we communicate, and so on... When you're in business for yourself, you need to be available when your clients and your customers want you available. If you can't make that promise or sacrifice, go get a 9-5 job with a sympathetic boss.

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candoit2 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

If you're going to be in business for yourself, you need to be available whenever a customer wants you available, not on your schedule.

Maybe in your business model, not mine.
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kindsvater

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

If you're going to be in business for yourself, you need to be available whenever a customer wants you available, not on your schedule.

I disagree. It is my life, my time, my schedule. Period. I would never let a customer control my life.

Unless the product advertises that it comes with support offered certain periods of time, support is not guaranteed. I once had someone complain they didn't get support on Christmas. They went to the bottom of the support list and I told them they were lucky to still be on the list.

If you let customers run you ragged with unreasonable, time-consuming demands (and to later refund), you probably won't be in business for long.

.

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

I disagree. It is my life, my time, my schedule. Period. I would never let a customer control my life.

Unless the product advertises that it comes with support offered certain periods of time, support is not guaranteed. I once had someone complain they didn't get support on Christmas. They went to the bottom of the support list and I told them they were lucky to still be on the list.

If you let customers run you ragged with unreasonable, time-consuming demands (and to later refund), you probably won't be in business for long.

.

You're joking right?

Did I seriously just read two responses that basically said when you're in business for yourself you should be able to attend to customers on your own schedule?

Sounds like a pretty Golden plan.. that more than certainly explains why I commonly find people that take days or weeks to respond to e-mails. I myself like to import good business ethics and I keep my g-mail/Skype up whenever i'm on the computer. If an e-mail or message comes in, I usually respond to it right away and I've been thanked for it quite a few times because apparently I'm not the only one who runs into people who feel consistent and fast communication isn't a part of running a business.

Also, when you're in business for yourself.. the customers are running your life. If you didn't have them, you wouldn't have your business. So yes, you need to be available on their time and whenever they need you.

As far as putting someone on the bottom of the list because of a complaint, I would fire any employee who did that. That's just flat out ridiculous to even do that. It's not professional at all...

Yes, customers will be rude, clients will be rude, some will be picky, there will be some bad days from dealing with a lot of them, especially on the Holidays but that doesn't warrant poor customer service or to push them away from doing business with you.

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kindsvater

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Did I seriously just read two responses that basically said when you're in business for yourself you should be able to attend to customers on your own schedule?

...

Yes, customers will be rude, clients will be rude, some will be picky, there will be some bad days from dealing with a lot of them, especially on the Holidays but that doesn't warrant poor customer service or to push them away from doing business with you.

Yes, you read that right. I also fire customers, ban them from buying future products, remove them from email lists, etc. If you don't then you are not managing your business. Everyone should manage their business to weed out bad customers.

What you otherwise said is completely out of context. No one is talking about providing bad customer service, or weeks to respond to a request. The issue is "bad" customers seeking a response at inappropriate times or on an inappropriate schedule. If I am on the computer, such as right now, and a support request comes in, I'll likely leave the Warrior Forum and respond right away because there are priorities. But that is my schedule, on my terms.

As it happens, this morning a prospective legal client asked why I didn't have a phone number on a web site. I told him it was to prevent long, time-consuming calls from people looking for an attorney, but my office often cannot assist them. (There are a lot of people with a zillion problems in their life, who want to tell you their life story, who are always victims, and my law office and every other lawyer I know will turn them down because we do not need bad, time-consuming, unprofitable clients.) Instead, I use an online form to filter requests so I can better respond on my time. May I not get some clients as a result? Probably. Overall, it's worth it.

I also told him for clients I am happy to schedule calls at 6:00 am, 10:00 pm, or whenever. That is customer support. It is also on my time. If I want to spend the day at the beach, and be talking to customers at 8 pm, that is my business, and something I enjoy. I also enjoy talking to customers and helping them out. And I don't mind going the extra mile for emergencies. Why? They are my friends.

This makes me much more productive and profitable. It's called properly managing your time and business. If a customer, especially a WSO buyer of a $7 report, is going to complain because I didn't take time away from my family to be glued to the computer waiting for support requests on Christmas Day, I have no problem with them being a former customer. My friends are not self-centered complainers and would never think of whining because a Christmas Day email was not immediately responded to.

Of course, if you are providing critical services you had better have an immediate support system in place 24x7.

It also remains unstated, in your posts, just what exactly is the time you're supposed to be available for your customers? How do you know what time they will need support? With an online businesses and potentially worldwide customers, any of whom may want attention at any time, are you suggesting foregoing sleep, food, and your family just so you will always be available for your customers?

Of course not. Why? Because YOU have needs that come before your customers. If being available to handle WSO questions or support requests on Christmas is more important than enjoying the holiday, family and friends ... which is how this thread started, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

.

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George Wright

11 years ago

Corey,

Make that 3.

You simply are not my target customer. No problems and no hard feelings.

Customers do not run my time any more than I run theirs.

If I wanted someone else to run my time I would as you say "get a job."

You say it "sounds like a pretty golden plan." YES, You DO understand.

You say, speaking of customers, "You need them," Yes I need "them" but I don't need any "one" of them.

There are 7 billion people on earth. The fraction of 7 billion I need as customers for me to be content is so miniscule it's not even worth mentioning.

George Wright

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

You're joking right?

Did I seriously just read two responses that basically said when you're in business for yourself you should be able to attend to customers on your own schedule?

Sounds like a pretty Golden plan.. that more than certainly explains why I commonly find people that take days or weeks to respond to e-mails. I myself like to import good business ethics and I keep my g-mail/Skype up whenever i'm on the computer. If an e-mail or message comes in, I usually respond to it right away and I've been thanked for it quite a few times because apparently I'm not the only one who runs into people who feel consistent and fast communication isn't a part of running a business.

Also, when you're in business for yourself.. the customers are running your life. If you didn't have them, you wouldn't have your business. So yes, you need to be available on their time and whenever they need you.

As far as putting someone on the bottom of the list because of a complaint, I would fire any employee who did that. That's just flat out ridiculous to even do that. It's not professional at all...

Yes, customers will be rude, clients will be rude, some will be picky, there will be some bad days from dealing with a lot of them, especially on the Holidays but that doesn't warrant poor customer service or to push them away from doing business with you.

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jicbeatz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

Corey,

Make that 3.

You simply are not my target customer. No problems and no hard feelings.

Customers do not run my time any more than I run theirs.

If I wanted someone else to run my time I would as you say "get a job."

You say it "sounds like a pretty golden plan." YES, You DO understand.

You say, speaking of customers, "You need them," Yes I need "them" but I don't need any "one" of them.

There are 7 billion people on earth. The fraction of 7 billion I need as customers for me to be content is so miniscule it's not even worth mentioning.

George Wright

Nice answer mate. I am just the same, i had an offline business in Bulgaria and same things were there as online. That's why i have started to filter my customers and guess what, we all were satisfied

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Tina Golden

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

If you're going to be in business for yourself, you need to be available whenever a customer wants you available, not on your schedule.

... When you're in business for yourself, you need to be available when your clients and your customers want you available. If you can't make that promise or sacrifice, go get a 9-5 job with a sympathetic boss.

Like hell. Call your plumber up at 3 am and tell him you want him to come on YOUR schedule and not his. Or try that with your auto mechanic.

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mgreener

11 years ago

Also noticed a strange rise in refund requests starting right before Christmas (even one that had made a purchase in July!).

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by mgreener

Also noticed a strange rise in refund requests starting right before Christmas (even one that had made a purchase in July!).

Yup. Same here only I noticed it 2 weeks before christmas.
One person did a chargeback for software I sold him 5 months ago !
It was $147.00 which is no small chargeback. Worst part was
I spent HOURS with this guy on skype and email TELLING him
exactly what to do for his online business, which is way above
and beyond what my sales letter promised.

My sales letter was for the software and I made no promises or
even hints that I would personally come spend each day with him
live on skype until he was a successful internet marketer.
However, he ended up expecting me to "make him rich" and replace
his $250,000.000 a year income he "gave up" to start blindly internet marketing without any experience.

I gave this guy HUGE help and even got his first clickbank sale ever FOR him.
How does he repay me ? Doesn't do anything or contact me for 4 months,
then suddenly before Christmas a "chargeback" of $147.00 ripped out of
my paypal account to satisfy his credit card company complaint he filed.
Claiming he was "not satisfied" with my software and service.

His expectations were that high that he felt it's ok to just steal from
me at Christmas time because I'm a faceless person on the internet,
and he came from a $250,000.00 per year job.

I think a lot of the really hard-case refunders/non-payers that
want blood for nothing come from despiration.
I often find it's "loss of job" or "coming from a job that had big income
for little work" such as high level government jobs, and real estate.
These people are used to having a big income,
and their world they have created around themselves requires that high income.
So they get very desperate and pushy when it comes to getting into any
IM related work. They have a "make me rich now please" attitude, but
quickly drop the "please" part. They don't understand you have to work
your ass off to get ahead in this business, just like any land based/offline business.
They want the dream without the work.

That being said I do think stronger sales copy with less hype is required
to bring things back to a fair level of expectations out there.
I know that my personal copy writing skills suck. I'm a PHP developer,
not a sales-man. I just learned how to sell by force, because otherwise
I would not have any customers. lol. :p
I am going to start working on my copywrite skills for 2013.
That's my new year's resolution. I hope to be able to make more sales
with less expectations in the future.

But don't forget, some people are just a bit crazy and hate life.
So of course they're going to hate your WSO too !

cheers

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jicbeatz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

Yup. Same here only I noticed it 2 weeks before christmas.
One person did a chargeback for software I sold him 5 months ago !
It was $147.00 which is no small chargeback. Worst part was
I spent HOURS with this guy on skype and email TELLING him
exactly what to do for his online business, which is way above
and beyond what my sales letter promised.

WTF? 5 months ago and such a support? Well that guy maybe he will get rich with those 150$ or maybe he didn't have cash for christmas lol. However if he remember that your software will be in need to him for a second time, charge him this time 500$ bucks and he won't never ever want a refund again!

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lastreporter

11 years ago

I really don't feel sorry for WSO sellers at all. I have an e-commerce business and returns are just a fact of life. When a person is unhappy with a product, they're often very demanding and unreasonable. That's just the way it is.

Since I've been a member on this forum, I have purchased two or three WSOs. When I bought them, I knew upfront that the great possibility was they were worthless. Unfortunately for me, they were. They were worthless primarily because they offered techniques that were either unethical or borderline illegal, that is, spamming or breaking terms of service of several major companies.

No, I didn't ask for a refund. I knew going in I would likely be disappointed.

These days, I rarely read any of the WSOS. Part of me, is intrigued by new members who tout WSOs, because many of them really have never had much success in Internet marketing. Yet, they make themselves instant experts and promise grand schemes packed with promises of big money. They stuff them on these hideous looking so-called squeeze pages, which are pure drudgery to read. In fact, it's hard to imagine how one could spend so much time and use so many words to say so very little.

What really amazes me about many of the WSOs I've seen, is the basic fact they offer no real business other than hustling the next guy into making a purchase. They never offer any real products or services, only promises and visions of grandeur that would never be offered for $7.

So, once again, I really don't feel sorry for someone who gets a nasty refunder on their latest WSO. It's just part of the game.

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IanGreenwood

11 years ago

IMHO I think this is a multi-factorial problem.

1) Unreasonable customer expectations fuelled by overblown copy. Problem is that everyone who writes sales copy (myself included) knows that the hypey, overblown, emotionally driven, copy sells - simple as that!

So, do you cut the emotionally driven copy, and know that you'll sell much less, or do you include the hype copy and know that you'll sell more. With emotionally driven copy comes bigger expectations (e.g. the "5 click web business"????) and hence bigger disappointments, and as a result more extreme reactions from those disappointed customers! This is simple 101 psychology.

2) The anonymity of the internet makes it so much easier for certain customers to request refunds (and to even be really, really nasty while they do it). These people would probably not be so "in your face" if they had to ring you on the phone, or indeed come to your shop in person to request a refund.

They simply feel "safe" asking for an anonymous refund - especially on sites like Clickbank where they don't have to contact the vendor at all. Easy refunds mean more refunds. Why are we surprised by this?

One question. Have you ever tried to send something back to Amazon?

3) I agree that the WSO market and the Clickbank market have been trained to refund! I'm led to believe that Clickbank now has refund rates of up to 30% - 40% depending on the product! When you compare this to high street stores this is an appalling refund rate. It has little to do with the products, and so much more to do with the market.

4) As sellers we have made this rod for our own backs by continually devaluing our products. You know what I'm talking about! The "$5,750 value product for only $7" type of product, or the "$15,000 worth of bonuses for FREE!" Please, give me a break!!!! Does anyone actually believe this any more?

No one in their right minds in real business would even consider selling like this. That's because hard products have a "real" value i.e. they take a certain amount of cash to produce and distribute. Digital products are of course different.

5 ) We have commoditised our digital products and have embraced the "less is more" strategy - i.e. If we sell "X" at $97 then if we reduce the price to $7 then we will surely sell so much more! This is a flawed strategy. How many multi national businesses have gone out of business working on this pricing model?

I agree with those who say we should create more value and better quality, and then charge more rather than less. BUT there are lazy marketers out there who still believe they can sell nothing for something, and who still think it's OK to take a tired, old, stale, PLR ebook and charge $67 for it. Is it any wonder the market gets jaded?

I work in other markets selling digital products and have a zero refund rate. I also work in other markets where I don't offer a refund at all, and have never had any complaints in several years of doing business!

The vast majority of online buyers are not refund orientated BUT we have trained OUR market to be that way. We as internet marketers in the "make money / biz op" (call it what you will) market have customers that will pay ridiculous amounts of money for our products. That's what makes it such a lucrative market to be in!

The flip side is that we have to put up with those who call us on our refund guarantee. maybe this is the payoff for having a mass market of rabid buyers, who don't mind spending millions of dollars every year.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by IanGreenwood

IMHO I think this is a multi-factorial problem.

1) Unreasonable customer expectations fuelled by overblown copy. Problem is that everyone who writes sales copy (myself included) knows that the hypey, overblown, emotionally driven, copy sells - simple as that!

So, do you cut the emotionally driven copy, and know that you'll sell much less, or do you include the hype copy and know that you'll sell more. With emotionally driven copy comes bigger expectations (e.g. the "5 click web business"????) and hence bigger disappointments, and as a result more extreme reactions from those disappointed customers! This is simple 101 psychology.

2) The anonymity of the internet makes it so much easier for certain customers to request refunds (and to even be really, really nasty while they do it). These people would probably not be so "in your face" if they had to ring you on the phone, or indeed come to your shop in person to request a refund.

They simply feel "safe" asking for an anonymous refund - especially on sites like Clickbank where they don't have to contact the vendor at all. Easy refunds mean more refunds. Why are we surprised by this?

One question. Have you ever tried to send something back to Amazon?

3) I agree that the WSO market and the Clickbank market have been trained to refund! I'm led to believe that Clickbank now has refund rates of up to 30% - 40% depending on the product! When you compare this to high street stores this is an appalling refund rate. It has little to do with the products, and so much more to do with the market.

4) As sellers we have made this rod for our own backs by continually devaluing our products. You know what I'm talking about! The "$5,750 value product for only $7" type of product, or the "$15,000 worth of bonuses for FREE!" Please, give me a break!!!! Does anyone actually believe this any more?

No one in their right minds in real business would even consider selling like this. That's because hard products have a "real" value i.e. they take a certain amount of cash to produce and distribute. Digital products are of course different.

5 ) We have commoditised our digital products and have embraced the "less is more" strategy - i.e. If we sell "X" at $97 then if we reduce the price to $7 then we will surely sell so much more! This is a flawed strategy. How many multi national businesses have gone out of business working on this pricing model?

I agree with those who say we should create more value and better quality, and then charge more rather than less. BUT there are lazy marketers out there who still believe they can sell nothing for something, and who still think it's OK to take a tired, old, stale, PLR ebook and charge $67 for it. Is it any wonder the market gets jaded?

I work in other markets selling digital products and have a zero refund rate. I also work in other markets where I don't offer a refund at all, and have never had any complaints in several years of doing business!

The vast majority of online buyers are not refund orientated BUT we have trained OUR market to be that way. We as internet marketers in the "make money / biz op" (call it what you will) market have customers that will pay ridiculous amounts of money for our products. That's what makes it such a lucrative market to be in!

The flip side is that we have to put up with those who call us on our refund guarantee. maybe this is the payoff for having a mass market of rabid buyers, who don't mind spending millions of dollars every year.

excellent post. thanks !
I agree about clickbank. Trained to refund. I was going to stop
using them this year, but with the new "tier" system rolling out in January,
I might stick around and see how it turns out.

cheers

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JST3P

11 years ago

Glad to see this discussion, I hope it results in some serious thinking and maybe even some action!

I can see the points of folks here about hypeyness. One poster referred back to the OP stating that's not the problem here, it was the buyer's unreasonable expectations or basically just wanting to get the product for free because he can.

I think you're both right, and for different reasons. It's not just a matter of that particular sales page, product or copy. It's also a result of the SPACE that we're in.

We exist in a space where, no matter what your ad copy says, everywhere you look we have a STANDARD BEING SET. People's expectations are being set by what we "collectively" advertise.

So even though your products are based on realistic strategies, all around you are other carnival barkers shouting "We will do it all for you! Just pay $10 and we will make you a millionaire while you're at the bar or out fishing! You don't have to do anything!"

It's as if, were we to throw away our brains for a second, we're in a world where all you need to do is go put in a few shifts at McDonalds and BANG; you buy our product and you're set for life. Hell even at $97 a week or something equally outrageous, what's it matter? You're going to be getting checks and deposits of thousands every single day and all you have to do is collect the cash!

Obviously this is silly, but it's a reality. There's no reason to expect anything different when the precedent we set in this industry is that if we just find the right product, system or guru we can become millionaires in a few months for the cost of a night out on the town. And with each purchase that doesn't live up to it's hype, I think most people are going to go one of 3 ways. 1) Most common: Give up "This is just a network of scams and ripoff artists." 2) Next most common: Just get the money back and try something else. "Well, that wasn't the right thing for me or I couldn't figure it out, but hey look at this, this looks promising..." 3) least common: Be skeptical of everything you see, research the topics and don't spend any money on anything that sounds even slightly "Too good to be true".

I don't think there's an easy solution to any of this. Certainly not the advice of one poster "Just don't offer refunds then." Do that, and you'll lose even MORE money. (Funny how huge this space is and yet so many vendors and marketers have zero understanding of the credit card chargeback process. There are fees you know. Your buyer will get the money back. If you give it back willingly then you only lose what they paid you. Fight it and you'll lose their money and a bunch of your own as well.)

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JST3P

We exist in a space where, no matter what your ad copy says, everywhere you look we have a STANDARD BEING SET. People's expectations are being set by what we "collectively" advertise.

So even though your products are based on realistic strategies, all around you are other carnival barkers shouting "We will do it all for you! Just pay $10 and we will make you a millionaire while you're at the bar or out fishing! You don't have to do anything!"

Good points, well made.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

I don't think there's an easy solution to any of this. Certainly not the advice of one poster "Just don't offer refunds then." Do that, and you'll lose even MORE money. (Funny how huge this space is and yet so many vendors and marketers have zero understanding of the credit card chargeback process. There are fees you know. Your buyer will get the money back. If you give it back willingly then you only lose what they paid you. Fight it and you'll lose their money and a bunch of your own as well.)

I don't lose money by not offering refunds. I would lose money by offering refunds from all the freebie seekers who think it would be simple to just download websites and then request a refund.

It is not at all unusual for those who sell software and websites to NOT offer a refund, and as for chargebacks, you are aware that most people on WF use Paypal rather than credit cards, are you not?

As I mentioned, on the rare occasion that someone files a Paypal dispute (which is NOT the same thing as a chargeback), I escalate it to a claim and normally win the dispute by providing the proof that they ordered the digital product and downloaded the digital product.

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't lose money by not offering refunds. I would lose money by offering refunds from all the freebie seekers who think it would be simple to just download websites and then request a refund.

It is not at all unusual for those who sell software and websites to NOT offer a refund, and as for chargebacks, you are aware that most people on WF use Paypal rather than credit cards, are you not?

As I mentioned, on the rare occasion that someone files a Paypal dispute (which is NOT the same thing as a chargeback), I escalate it to a claim and normally win the dispute by providing the proof that they ordered the digital product and downloaded the digital product.

This isn't meant to me a slam, but you just proved my point with your lack of knowledge on the process. PayPal is not where the money comes from, it's a processor. The money comes from a funding source for most buyers, and with any savvy buyers, that funding source is a credit card as a backup in case filing a claim with PayPal doesn't get your money back, you can just CB with the card company. (And savvy IM buyers would have learned that lesson right away.)

Granted, with PayPal they will eat most of the chargeback cost and you will only lose the original payment and the $20 portion of the chargeback fee that they pass along to the seller, but that is still a refund and $20 loss.

Congrats if you're avoiding this, and I know it's possible, but using PayPal over processing with your own merchant account doesn't change the nature of the game here.

Edited to add:

"I escalate it to a claim and normally win the dispute by providing the proof that they ordered the digital product and downloaded the digital product."

This part is particularly revealing. You're not winning the claim by providing "proof" of a download, that's not possible to prove. You're winning because you escalated and disagreed on the basis that it's a digital download and therefore not covered. PayPal does not protect buyers (_OR SELLERS_) for intangible items. So when your buyer then files a chargeback or even an unathorized bank reversal, PayPal will not protect you or cover you, same as they didn't protect the buyer when they filed their dispute.

This is what I mean. You don't understand the chargeback process, nor the PayPal policies and process or even how you're winning the claims.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by JST3P

This isn't meant to me a slam, but you just proved my point with your lack of knowledge on the process. PayPal is not where the money comes from, it's a processor. The money comes from a funding source for most buyers, and with any savvy buyers, that funding source is a credit card as a backup in case filing a claim with PayPal doesn't get your money back, you can just CB with the card company. (And savvy IM buyers would have learned that lesson right away.)

Actually, the majority of people who purchase via Paypal for WSOs are using their Paypal balances as the funding source and not a credit card, so a credit card chargeback is not a possibility when a Paypal balance is used over a credit card. If no charge has appeared on a credit card, they can't very well ask their credit card company for a chargeback, now can they?

Originally Posted by JST3P

Edited to add:

"I escalate it to a claim and normally win the dispute by providing the proof that they ordered the digital product and downloaded the digital product."

This part is particularly revealing. You're not winning the claim by providing "proof" of a download, that's not possible to prove. You're winning because you escalated and disagreed on the basis that it's a digital download and therefore not covered. PayPal does not protect buyers (_OR SELLERS_) for intangible items. So when your buyer then files a chargeback or even an unathorized bank reversal, PayPal will not protect you or cover you, same as they didn't protect the buyer when they filed their dispute.

This is what I mean. You don't understand the chargeback process, nor the PayPal policies and process or even how you're winning the claims.

It most certainly is possible to prove digital deliveries. Ever hear of IP addresses being recorded and DLGuard records that IP address and reports how many times that IP address has downloaded that file. Paypal's policies are not as black and white as you pretend they are. I have won disputes on digital downloads as a customer based on the fact that the software didn't work and that sort of flies in the face of the assumption that there is no protection against buyers or sellers for intangible products, doesn't it?

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Actually, the majority of people who purchase via Paypal for WSOs are using their Paypal balances as the funding source and not a credit card, so a credit card chargeback is not a possibility when a Paypal balance is used over a credit card. If no charge has appeared on a credit card, they can't very well ask their credit card company for a chargeback, now can they?

You're correct about if it's a PayPal balance funded payment then there is no recourse to a credit card company, but the part about how most people buy with their PayPal balance is either something someone told you or you just made that part up. It's simply not true. If you believe it is, I'd like to see the evidence!

It most certainly is possible to prove digital deliveries. Ever hear of IP addresses being recorded and DLGuard records that IP address and reports how many times that IP address has downloaded that file.

No, but that doesn't prove anything nor does it change the fact that PayPal doesn't even LOOK at the "proof" you're providing, the buyer isn't protected. That's why you win.

Paypal's policies are not as black and white as you pretend they are. I have won disputes on digital downloads as a customer based on the fact that the software didn't work and that sort of flies in the face of the assumption that there is no protection against buyers or sellers for intangible products, doesn't it?

Or so it would seem. You're partly right about PayPal policies not being as B&W as they seem. PayPal places a lot of focus on their team mates being "empowered" to bend or break the rules when it's the right thing to do for the customer.

Long and short of it, I know the policies, the process and how it is implemented. You only know that you got your money back, or the claims filed against you were decided in your favor as far as you know. You DON'T know that the buyer may well have gotten their money back anyway, same as you did, from PayPal itself. Remember the fees I mentioned? They want to avoid those, and they want to keep people happy.

What most likely happened in your digital goods dispute is that PayPal paid you out from it's own pocket and your seller never lost a dime. And all those docs or screenshots you provided in your disputes over digital goods: they were never looked at, I can guarantee that. All you would need to do is escalate and disagree with the comment "Digital goods delivered electronically" and you win as long as the buyer's complaint isn't trying to claim it was a physical product. Doesn't mean they didn't get their money back anyway, with you none the wiser, when they called to complain about losing their case and threatening to call the card company.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by JST3P

You're correct about if it's a PayPal balance funded payment then there is no recourse to a credit card company, but the part about how most people buy with their PayPal balance is either something someone told you or you just made that part up. It's simply not true. If you believe it is, I'd like to see the evidence!

No, but that doesn't prove anything nor does it change the fact that PayPal doesn't even LOOK at the "proof" you're providing, the buyer isn't protected. That's why you win.

Or so it would seem. You're partly right about PayPal policies not being as B&W as they seem. PayPal places a lot of focus on their team mates being "empowered" to bend or break the rules when it's the right thing to do for the customer.

Long and short of it, I know the policies, the process and how it is implemented. You only know that you got your money back, or the claims filed against you were decided in your favor as far as you know. You DON'T know that the buyer may well have gotten their money back anyway, same as you did, from PayPal itself. Remember the fees I mentioned? They want to avoid those, and they want to keep people happy.

What most likely happened in your digital goods dispute is that PayPal paid you out from it's own pocket and your seller never lost a dime. And all those docs or screenshots you provided in your disputes over digital goods: they were never looked at, I can guarantee that. All you would need to do is escalate and disagree with the comment "Digital goods delivered electronically" and you win as long as the buyer's complaint isn't trying to claim it was a physical product. Doesn't mean they didn't get their money back anyway, with you none the wiser, when they called to complain about losing their case and threatening to call the card company.

Nice job of pure speculation and opinion.

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Actually, the majority of people who purchase via Paypal for WSOs are using their Paypal balances as the funding source and not a credit card, so a credit card chargeback is not a possibility when a Paypal balance is used over a credit card. If no charge has appeared on a credit card, they can't very well ask their credit card company for a chargeback, now can they?

It most certainly is possible to prove digital deliveries. Ever hear of IP addresses being recorded and DLGuard records that IP address and reports how many times that IP address has downloaded that file. Paypal's policies are not as black and white as you pretend they are. I have won disputes on digital downloads as a customer based on the fact that the software didn't work and that sort of flies in the face of the assumption that there is no protection against buyers or sellers for intangible products, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Nice job of pure speculation and opinion.

Pure is a strong word in this case, and none of what I said is purely opinion. If you think I'm making this up, call up PayPal (888-221-1161) and ask.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't lose money by not offering refunds.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I guess it depends what you classify as losing money though. In the true sense of the word no you will not be LOSING money you have already earnt. But by not offering a refund guarantee you will be LOSING a lot of purchases that people would have otherwise made if that refund policy were in place.

There's a good reason why refund guarantees are so popular. It's not just something in our niche, you will see it everywhere these days. It's because refund guarantees have been proven over and over again to bring in more sales. You will almost always make more money by offering a refund guarantee .

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I guess it depends what you classify as losing money though. In the true sense of the word no you will not be LOSING money you have already earnt. But by not offering a refund guarantee you will be LOSING a lot of purchases that people would have otherwise made if that refund policy were in place.

There's a good reason why refund guarantees are so popular. It's not just something in our niche, you will see it everywhere these days. It's because refund guarantees have been proven over and over again to bring in more sales. You will almost always make more money by offering a refund guarantee .

Well Will ... give me one good reason why I would sell websites, where the buyer sees and knows exactly what the product is, and then tell them that after purchasing the website, I'll give them a refund just because they want one. I don't sell MMO info products. There's no promises with my products. I sell websites, and I am not in the least bit interested in selling to the "dreamer" market. I want customers who want the convenience of having a website done for them and then they fully expect to have to do the promotion and maintenance themselves ... that they are completely responsible for the website's success or failure after they own it.

Other products in the recent past have been custom graphic design. I don't work for free, so I don't offer a refund after I've done the work.

I have always had so little problems with refunds that it's a non issue for me. I take care of my customers and build a relationship with them. The majority are very happy with the product or service.

For those who offer promises of results or income, maybe the refund policy works for them to increase sales. Like I said, I don't mind leaving "money on the table." I know this is an alien thought to most around here, but I've made a full time living as my own boss for over 12 years and have a fairly simple life and I'm happy with it that way. I do what I enjoy doing and have mostly happy customers.

EDIT: I know your business model is completely different than mine and the refund policy probably helps you to sell more than you would without it. I also know your products are worth it and you probably don't have a huge refund problem. I've bought a couple of them myself.

The point is that people seem to lump all WSOs in the same pot, even though many are quite different. There are people who sell info products, people who sell services, graphics, websites, software, etc. Refunds work more for the info products than for the rest in that list IMO. Making the refund process too simple in the case of websites and software is just asking for the serial refunders to take advantage of it.

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jicbeatz 11 years ago

Well said sbucciarel
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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well Will ... give me one good reason why I would sell websites, where the buyer sees and knows exactly what the product is, and then tell them that after purchasing the website, I'll give them a refund just because they want one. I don't sell MMO info products. There's no promises with my products. I sell websites, and I am not in the least bit interested in selling to the "dreamer" market. I want customers who want the convenience of having a website done for them and then they fully expect to have to do the promotion and maintenance themselves ... that they are completely responsible for the website's success or failure after they own it.

Other products in the recent past have been custom graphic design. I don't work for free, so I don't offer a refund after I've done the work.

I have always had so little problems with refunds that it's a non issue for me. I take care of my customers and build a relationship with them. The majority are very happy with the product or service.

For those who offer promises of results or income, maybe the refund policy works for them to increase sales. Like I said, I don't mind leaving "money on the table." I know this is an alien thought to most around here, but I've made a full time living as my own boss for over 12 years and have a fairly simple life and I'm happy with it that way. I do what I enjoy doing and have mostly happy customers.

EDIT: I know your business model is completely different than mine and the refund policy probably helps you to sell more than you would without it. I also know your products are worth it and you probably don't have a huge refund problem. I've bought a couple of them myself.

The point is that people seem to lump all WSOs in the same pot, even though many are quite different. There are people who sell info products, people who sell services, graphics, websites, software, etc. Refunds work more for the info products than for the rest in that list IMO. Making the refund process too simple in the case of websites and software is just asking for the serial refunders to take advantage of it.

Hey, I know there are certain situations that are different and you are right, we all need to do what is best for us and us only.

I'm just saying in the general scheme of things I think refund policies do help improve your sales and get you a lot more customers (most of them decent ones) than if you didn't have one at all. Even I am a big fan of money back guarantees nowadays, especially when buying things like clothes, etc online. Although I can see exactly what the product is before I purchase it, having that refund guarantee does give me added piece of mind knowing that for whatever reason I could return it if need be. I never do but I like having that added piece of mind. It just makes you more confident in your purchase.

For services though, refund policies (if used) do need to be a lot more specific, I agree. A lot of times a person isn't wanting you to guarantee results or earnings but they just want that added piece of mind that should something not do or be as it states on the salespage, they have some type of recourse for that. A lot of times they are decent people who have just had one or two bad experiences in the past and want that added protection, which I can totally understand -- especially when you see some of the offers being peddled these days!

From my own experience, and again this is my own experience only, I have found VERY few people take advantage of my refund policies. As others have stated if I can sense someone is trying to take advantage of it then I will block them from purchasing from me again. That's our right as a vendor.

That's why nowadays I only ever really offer the 'It Works as Advertised' type refund policies. I have found them to work best. They still give the buyer added piece of mind but it prevents people from 'taking you for a ride' (so to speak).

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I guess it depends what you classify as losing money though. In the true sense of the word no you will not be LOSING money you have already earnt. But by not offering a refund guarantee you will be LOSING a lot of purchases that people would have otherwise made if that refund policy were in place.

There's a good reason why refund guarantees are so popular. It's not just something in our niche, you will see it everywhere these days. It's because refund guarantees have been proven over and over again to bring in more sales. You will almost always make more money by offering a refund guarantee .

The whole refund policy is nothing but a fuzzy blanket for your customer to feel good about. It's a selling point based off of many buyers who have even less knowledge of their own rights and responsibilities than IM marketers do.

Offering the refund policy just gives buyers that extra assurance that you're not going to be a PITA about giving a refund. The smart ones know that whether or not you offer a refund (in the USA anyway) is irrelevant to their consumer right to a refund. Look at eBay for a great example. You can see a lot of sellers who put "All Sales Final" and "No Refunds, sold AS IS!" and various other hollow attempts to convince buyers that their decision to buy is a final point of no return.

Factually speaking, this isn't the case. No amount of verbiage you include in the listing is going to alter A) the US consumer protection laws that apply to all transactions on eBay.com or B) change the fact that 90% of people who file a Not As Described claim on eBay or (more likely) PayPal are going to be told to return it for a full refund, regardless of whatever off-putting "no refund" policy the seller tries to append.

The same ideas apply to digital products, with some notable differences I already mentioned. The only exceptions that truly exist are the people buying and selling on non-USA venues maintained in some other country where consumer protection laws are different or non-existent.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JST3P

The whole refund policy is nothing but a fuzzy blanket for your customer to feel good about. It's a selling point based off of many buyers who have even less knowledge of their own rights and responsibilities than IM marketers do.

Offering the refund policy just gives buyers that extra assurance that you're not going to be a PITA about giving a refund. The smart ones know that whether or not you offer a refund (in the USA anyway) is irrelevant to their consumer right to a refund. Look at eBay for a great example. You can see a lot of sellers who put "All Sales Final" and "No Refunds, sold AS IS!" and various other hollow attempts to convince buyers that their decision to buy is a final point of no return.

Factually speaking, this isn't the case. No amount of verbiage you include in the listing is going to alter A) the US consumer protection laws that apply to all transactions on eBay.com or B) change the fact that 90% of people who file a Not As Described claim on eBay or (more likely) PayPal are going to be told to return it for a full refund, regardless of whatever off-putting "no refund" policy the seller tries to append.

The same ideas apply to digital products, with some notable differences I already mentioned. The only exceptions that truly exist are the people buying and selling on non-USA venues maintained in some other country where consumer protection laws are different or non-existent.

It depends what your refund policy is. Some people offer a no questions asked refund policy which goes above and beyond the standard consumer protection laws. This means people who simply change their minds can ask for a refund. If you are talking about Consumer Protection Laws though yes, they are there to cover people who have received a product that is not fit for purpose or does not match what was advertised -- you're right for a refund is always there. But not everyone has to or will refund you if you simply change your mind.

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

you're right for a refund is always there. But not everyone has to or will refund you if you simply change your mind.

Correct, and even by PayPal's rather liberally applied Buyer Protection policies it's right there in black and white that buyers remorse is not covered. Simply changing your mind isn't a valid reason for a refund, even on PayPal.

However, who ever calls up PayPal and says "Yeah, it was a good product but I just changed my mind."??? It ALMOST NEVER HAPPENS. They call up or file their claim in their resolution center claiming that the software just doesn't work, is useless or is just some elementary lesson of basics that anyone can find on google. (And I imagine a good percentage of these claims are accurate, if much of what is on this very thread is to be believed!).

And sbucciarel; I'm not like gunning for you here. From what little I know (based purely off this thread) about your business model, it sounds like you are doing everything right; Offering real services/products with value to the buyer, not misleading them and being the real deal. Doing what you're doing is the real reason why you don't have a problem with refunds. I have no beef with you, but I'm also not shy about saying "Uh, close but no cigar. You're wrong and here's why." Your business practices seem sound, so you're likely never going to have an issue. It's only your understanding of the how and why you haven't had an issue that's flawed.

Also, it's fairly uncommon for a buyer of a website to file claims or chargebacks, and of those who do it's usually because the seller has already taken payment (or deposit) and isn't delivering or the site they delivered is far below the quality of site they claimed to have been able to build and integrate.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by JST3P

Also, it's fairly uncommon for a buyer of a website to file claims or chargebacks, and of those who do it's usually because the seller has already taken payment (or deposit) and isn't delivering or the site they delivered is far below the quality of site they claimed to have been able to build and integrate.

I'll concede that some of my opinions may be flawed, however, it is not at all uncommon on Flippa for people to buy a website and once they have the files and domain, to do a Paypal chargeback and get the money back. It happens far too often. In a large marketplace like Flippa, fraud is fairly rampant.

I had one customer attempt it, but fortunately, I had a website contract signed by the buyer and all screenshots of the communication and Paypal sided with me. Since then, I don't do Paypal transactions in the thousands for websites.

And on the lesser side (price wise), the Black Hat forums even go so far as to do a "group buy" of the website packages offered around here and then sell them themselves.

The refund rate at Clickbank is outrageous. It's a hotbed of serial refunders who only want to get the product for free and then go directly to Clickbank for an easy, no questions asked refund. The bulk of the Clickbank refunds are pure fraud unless you concede that most of the products on Clickbank are nothing but junk, and I haven't really seen that with my purchases.

Obviously, these people are just criminals and they would do this with or without a refund policy in place, so it's no real protection either way, but the refund policies on this forum, allow the black hatters to get these products for free in bulk and upload them to the BH sites or sell them themselves. There are "members" here just waiting for the launches, especially from popular people like Will and others who tend to have big launches. It's not just a little problem, IMO ... it's a big one, and again, one with not real easy or evident solutions.

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Broyde 11 years ago

People want the world in a $7 WSO because that is what the person selling the $7 WSO often says that they are going to give for the $7.
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paul nicholls

11 years ago

it can be annoying at times when someone emails you saying

"hey, i went through your product it's really good and solid but i really don't have time to use it at the moment so could i have a refund please"

lol, some people do actually say this

however that being said the serial refunders only amount to about 0.01% of people that buy your products

yes it can be annoying at times but the pro's of doing wso's far far far out way the con's

for getting say 300 buyers on your list you may get a few serial refunders and a few awkward customers but apart from that you are left with 290 good customers

i can live with that :-)

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Patrick Batty

11 years ago

Originally Posted by paul nicholls

it can be annoying at times when someone emails you saying

"hey, i went through your product it's really good and solid but i really don't have time to use it at the moment so could i have a refund please"

lol, some people do actually say this

however that being said the serial refunders only amount to about 0.01% of people that buy your products

yes it can be annoying at times but the pro's of doing wso's far far far out way the con's

for getting say 300 buyers on your list you may get a few serial refunders and a few awkward customers but apart from that you are left with 290 good customers

i can live with that :-)

haha.. Paul, I've had that exact email. I love your product, but I don;t have time. I always issue a refund immediately, regardless.. but no time is a pretty lame excuse IMHO

However, I will say, I've hardly ever had any refunds so, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem IMHO.

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Raydal

11 years ago

I never offer refunds on a WSO. If someone wants a guarantee
then they can buy at the normal price and then ask for the refund.

And only once in the many years I was asked for a refund on a WSO
and the excuse was "good, but I won't use it" as well. So this seems
to be a common "nice" way of asking for a refund.

But again in my 10 years of selling online I've NEVER had a complaint
about the quality of products I sell. In fact, I've had the opposite
complaint customers said I should be charging more. That's the
way I want it to be.

-Ray Edwards

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KevinDahlberg

11 years ago

I have been a buyer of WSOs for over a year now, and I have never once asked for a refund.

Why?

Because I figure it's all a part of my education. I managed to learn all about a ton of different methods and then choose the one that I wanted to focus on. Sure there were a few duds in there, but most of the products I purchased were pretty decent. I stopped purchasing recently because I was getting product after product that said exactly the same thing. Once that happens it is time to stop educating yourself through reading and start educating yourself through acting (if you aren't already).

Oddly enough, the two products that I have acted on were not WSOs. I paid 20 for one and 500 for the other. I've also gotten more actionable advice from the War Room. That was $37 well spent.

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marketingva

11 years ago

I have a simple solution for the constant threads (good or bad) posted about the Warrior Special Offers section of this forum:

If you don't like the products and the way they are sold in that section don't go there.
If you don't want to sell your product for cheap and endure the refund requests and complaints don't go there.
If you think that sales hype is a problem in that section don't go there.

If you do visit that section and see something you something against the rules hit the "report" button and let the moderators know. It's that simple.

Bonnie

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by marketingva

I have a simple solution for the constant threads (good or bad) posted about the Warrior Special Offers section of this forum:

If you don't like the products and the way they are sold in that section don't go there.
If you don't want to sell your product for cheap and endure the refund requests and complaints don't go there.
If you think that sales hype is a problem in that section don't go there.

If you do visit that section and see something you something against the rules hit the "report" button and let the moderators know. It's that simple.

Bonnie

I respectfully disagree, this problem is endemic to our industry, not one page, blog, forum or tactic. Simply not going there doesn't help the damage that these pie-in-the-sky fly-by-night types do to all the rest of us honest people. The simple solution would be "If you don't like having to swim in the same tank as the sharks and jellyfish, don't swim." Not really an option here.

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Ken Strong 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Parrot-speak

Polly want a refund -- AWK!

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I almost didn't post this because I don't want to be "that guy,"

It's OK, we're used to it.
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Backlinko

11 years ago

I hear ya man.

I've considered throwing my hat into the ring with a WSO...but am a bit reluctant for the reasons that you mentioned.

Actually, it's been a blessing in disguise because I just turn my WSOs into blog posts...which probably bring me more money in the long-run anyway.

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buffnstuff

11 years ago

I have yet to make my own WSOs, so this is coming from someone who has been on the consumer side of things. I've bought LOTS of WSOs. Some Great, some okay and some that suck. I've only asked for a refund 3 times out of over 100 WSO purchases. As a WSO consumer I have some advice for product developers from a customer's perspective...

I would recommend first and foremost, please state what your products do in clear English. The blind copy, hype and total exaggerations of many WSOs lead to buyer’s remorse. The expectations are high but most products fail to deliver on their claims.

Another problem I see a lot is how many sellers promise lifetime upgrades and support for their products. Then a month or 2 later they've abandoned the product entirely having moved on to other products and offering no upgrades and or support as promised, then they wonder why they get trashed in threads of future launches. It's called karma!

I know in the IM market truth in advertising is rare. Those who are serious about quality should be very upfront and forthright when describing their products. If there are OTOs then state it in the ad copy and how much they are as well as how they complement the original offering. There are way too many games played. It’s similar to going to a car dealer and finding out after the sale the engine and transmission are additional.

I also agree there are far too many products that are obviously rehashed garbage and that's why it's being sold at rock bottom pricing or it’s a very high level gloss over of a method(s) without much detail or information.

The bottom line is, product developers should start treating IM like any other business. State on your sales pages the actual offer and state it clearly. Leave the hype and BS out. If there are additional features and products that either compliment or enhance the original product then state it in the ad copy upfront.

Nothing pisses me off more than buying a product for $X.00 only to find out after the initial sale, that usually for a lot more than the original offer, if I want the product to do what was advertised or better then I have to shell out even more money. And products with more than one OTO are the worst and make me want a refund because I feel duped.

Next, I wouldn’t offer a refund if the buyer, after being informed of all the necessary information on the product so as to make an intelligent buying decision, must show proof they actually applied the strategy or used the product as described before given a refund.

Also charge accordingly for your product. I see far too many offers making all kinds of money claims being sold for $1 to $19. Come on people, we all know anything that sounds too good to be true usually is. Any product that is a true business solution is not going to sell that cheaply. It also drags the perceived value of other worthwhile products down.

The only exception to the above should be, if you are launching a product and need testers and or testimonials then fine, discount it as such but explain that as a condition in the sales letter. Also charging a fair price for a fair product or service is an incentive for the product creator to offer stellar support as well as upgrades and fixes in exchange for testing and testimonials.

Additionally I would recommend, making it worthwhile for the product creator to offer good support, and continued development of the product, especially on software, to charge a sufficient price. Only offer minor feature enhancements and fixes until there is a new full version release. Just like any other software company does. It’s unrealistic to expect a business to keep offering upgrades and support for free for life. Again, if it’s sounds too good to be true it usually is.

I think a lot of WSO buyers have unreal expectations of low prices, high quality products and free lifelong development and support of products, which is ridiculous for anything of reasonably good quality. This I blame on the less than honest product creators who are in it for the quick buck.

So to sum it up…

Be truthful in ad copy.
If there’s an OTO state it upfront and what it is, does and what it costs.
Produce quality products.
Charge a reasonable price.
Provide good support.
Don’t over promise and under deliver.

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JST3P

11 years ago

Originally Posted by buffnstuff

Be truthful in ad copy.
If there's an OTO state it upfront and what it is, does and what it costs.
Produce quality products.
Charge a reasonable price.
Provide good support.
Don't over promise and under deliver.

This, times 10.

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KriiV

11 years ago

I would have to agree completely. Certain offers and products attract a certain type of buyer. I myself have had dealings with some very bad mannered customers after they asked for a refund without providing me with any information about the transaction so I could actually refund the correct person.

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

Also, here's a couple great Mark Cuban quotes.

“It is called working your ass off. The difference is what you are willing to sacrifice. For every writer who wants balance in their life, there is a guy like me who gives up a lot to make their dreams come true. There is always going to be someone out there that knows they have to compensate for maybe having less talent with harder work and preparation.”

“Work like there is someone working twenty-four hours a day to take it all away from you, and play like it’s your last chance to play.”

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Did I seriously just read two responses that basically said when you're in business for yourself you should be able to attend to customers on your own schedule?

Yes, you did.

If you run a retail store, you are not going to go into the shop in the middle of the night, just because someone calls you at 3 AM wanting to replace a product. The other side is that you can't just abandon your customers if you promise any kind of service at all.

Like so many things, it all comes down to balance.

Paul
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GlenH 11 years ago

I do WSO's through Clickbank..

Sure, that opens me up to their '60 day' refund policy, but if I make sure my product is of high quality, then refunds don't end up being a big issue.

I also don't have to contend with the WSO Pro and PayPal's liking for terminating account as soon as they see a surge in deposits.
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doggerel

11 years ago

I bought 4. Two of the four looked like they were slapped together in one night, with grammatical and spelling errors abounding.

One had more up-selling of the OTO in it than actual helpful content.

You go to the author's home page or blog and find it under construction, or bare-- having three posts and no comments, yet the author is lauded as a "famed expert in his field" by suppurating reviewers.

You really feel conned.

That's why people refund.

And btw, I didn't request any refunds. But I sure as hell won't make the WSO mistake again .

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GlenH

11 years ago

Originally Posted by doggerel

I bought 4. Two of the four looked like they were slapped together in one night, with grammatical and spelling errors abounding.

One had more up-selling of the OTO in it than actual helpful content.

You go to the author's home page or blog and find it under construction, or bare-- having three posts and no comments, yet the author is lauded as a "famed expert in his field" by suppurating reviewers.

You really feel conned.

That's why people refund.

And btw, I didn't request any refunds. But I sure as hell won't make the WSO mistake again .

That's exactly why so many people back away from buying WSO's, because so many of the products are just pathetic.

That then makes it's so much harder for other members who have a valuable product to offer to be taken seriously.

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jicbeatz

11 years ago

I bought so many things and almost never asked for a refund. It's really stupid for asking a refund on a product which is 7-10$. In most cases i asked for a refund if it's a total SCAM, otherwise i don't. Most products are not so good, but hey they are below 10$. If we stick for those "10$" we are f**ked!

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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Yes I have noticed some people are just window shoppers.

I have gotten this several times :

Hey thanks for calling me and installing the software for me and spending an hour and a half on the phone with me explaining everything and making sure I understand how your software works but I decided that I dont have time to do this right now so I want a refund, please send me a refund right now, oh and by the way I didnt include my transaction ID in this email because I want to make it as difficult as possible for you to refund me but if you dont do it right away Im going to file a paypal complain for not as described even though it does work exactly as described, but I just 'assumed' your script was a WordPress plug in even though you never even mentioned WordPress. So thanks!

Obviously I didnt get that email literately but I have gotten a few 'like' it. Most of my buyers are good people, but there are some out there who abuse the refund policy. Ill gladly give anyone a refund if the script does not work as expected. But when someone says 'It works great, I just changed my mind; it kind of urks me. Especially when I spend an hour on the phone with them helping them out.

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jicbeatz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

Yes I have noticed some people are just window shoppers.

I have gotten this several times :

Hey thanks for calling me and installing the software for me and spending an hour and a half on the phone with me explaining everything and making sure I understand how your software works but I decided that I dont have time to do this right now so I want a refund, please send me a refund right now, oh and by the way I didnt include my transaction ID in this email because I want to make it as difficult as possible for you to refund me but if you dont do it right away Im going to file a paypal complain for not as described even though it does work exactly as described, but I just 'assumed' your script was a WordPress plug in even though you never even mentioned WordPress. So thanks!

Obviously I didnt get that email literately but I have gotten a few 'like' it. Most of my buyers are good people, but there are some out there who abuse the refund policy. Ill gladly give anyone a refund if the script does not work as expected. But when someone says 'It works great, I just changed my mind; it kind of urks me. Especially when I spend an hour on the phone with them helping them out.

Most of the people buy, then share it to blackhat forums and then ask for a refund especially the ebooks and courses. Same goes for the softwares, the buy, share them and other people try to null them and then they ask for a refund!

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tryinhere

11 years ago

People selling hopes and dreams to people wanting to win the lottery of life will find the odd angry person ready to pizzle your day off as they bang on the door of unhappiness and life is not fair. In many ways it would be expected so not sure why when it happens people get upset.

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SparkletMedia

Banned 11 years ago

I buy WSO based on the following.

1. Genuine reviews...not fake ones.
2. Reputation of Seller.
3. Is the WSO going to help my business?
4. Support
5. Refund Policy

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bwh1

11 years ago

I buy a lot of WSO's and asked about 2- 3 times for a refund cuz it was

- a crap
- not as advertised at the sales page
- software didn't worked (that refund never arrived tough)

Now outside the WF. We sell our CB product to "normal" people around the planet, individuals and small biz customers.

One asked a refund because she couldn't copy and paste here password and username into the login box (after trying for 3 days, forgot to ask if she is blond)...

Another one wasn't able to install the Abobe Flash Player...

Third asked for refund at day 61 after purchase (sorry, I forgot to send you the refund request yesterday)....

and you know what, we refunded EVERYONE without even arguing.

It's just not worth your time to discuss with people which are on that level, believe me.

Be kind, give the refund and focus on selling.

G.

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BIG Mike

Banned 11 years ago

Just imagine if ALL WSO sellers re-trained their buyers to accept no refunds as part of the process of getting a deal on something, i.e.; all sales are final.

Sure, you're going to get a few PayPal disputes and charge backs, but not nearly as many as you might think. You're also going to lose sales, but that's a good thing - the lost sales are almost always the tire kickers, the serial refunders, etc., that you don't want anyways.

I've run a no-refund model for years on both scripts/software and the occasional info product with no major loss as a result. Every time I re-test it, I get slammed with tire kickers or worse, who normally aren't regular customers anyways.

Keep in mind that having a stated no-refund policy doesn't mean that, as the seller, you can't make a decision to refund those who have legitimate issues. We do refund under specific circumstances, but our policy allows us to decide that - not an unreasonable customer.

Personally, I'd love to see the WSO forum move away from any interaction at all - like Paul's newspaper analogy, change it so you can't comment on the ads or give feedback publicly in the same media. Let the buyers and sellers deal with the issues off-forum like real business people and real customers.

If nothing else, it gives some overworked mods a much needed break

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Just imagine if ALL WSO sellers re-trained their buyers to accept no refunds as part of the process of getting a deal on something, i.e.; all sales are final.

Sure, you're going to get a few PayPal disputes and charge backs, but not nearly as many as you might think. You're also going to lose sales, but that's a good thing - the lost sales are almost always the tire kickers, the serial refunders, etc., that you don't want anyways.

I've run a no-refund model for years on both scripts/software and the occasional info product with no major loss as a result. Every time I re-test it, I get slammed with tire kickers or worse, who normally aren't regular customers anyways.

Keep in mind that having a stated no-refund policy doesn't mean that, as the seller, you can't make a decision to refund those who have legitimate issues. We do refund under specific circumstances, but our policy allows us to decide that - not an unreasonable customer.

Personally, I'd love to see the WSO forum move away from any interaction at all - like Paul's newspaper analogy, change it so you can't comment on the ads or give feedback publicly in the same media. Let the buyers and sellers deal with the issues off-forum like real business people and real customers.

If nothing else, it gives some overworked mods a much needed break

thanks Big Mike. You have just inspired me to have a no-refund policy
on my PHP scripts so I can concentrate on my good customers

I was afraid to try it, but after reading your post here,
and having plenty of experience myself with "tire kickers"......
I'm ready to give it a whirl.

cheers

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Mark Hess

11 years ago

For sellers, I think you need to take the good with the bad. There's tremendous upside to selling on the forum, but it's a public forum and you never know who's going to come on your thread, who's going to buy, and how they're going to act. It's all part the game.

To some extent, I can empathize with the increasing amount of buyer frustration (not the irrational crazy people) the 'normal' people that all they want is what's advertised.

Since I promote software, plugins, etc. people generally know what they're buying. So it makes it easier to some extent.

The quality of info products seems to be on a steady decline and has been for the past 6-8 months.

I'm amazed that more sellers don't fight back and defend their product on the thread but honestly, most products now are designed specifically to sell on the forum. It's a fairy tail written down in order to make quick cash.

I didn't say ALL, but enough to make it look bad.

When you know what's really going on and 'how the sausage is made', it becomes painfully obvious.

Many people think if you run a WSO, you're going to make money. The reality is, most fail to sell 10-25+ copies.

There's Facebook groups dedicated to selling WSO's filled with 1,000+ people. When you go in there, the vast majority don't have the experience or skills to create an info product. But they're seeking to strike it rich in the WSO section... like scratching off a lottery ticket. And this is spurred on by other members, people offering coaching, and those that encourage them to stay positive and get that product out there. (even if that product is garbage)

In the 'old days' it was simple. You have a product, list it in the WSO section, it cost $20 to bump, your listing lasted on the first page for 24-36 hours. It was profitable from organic Warrior traffic.

Now, you need affiliates to drive traffic. If you don't currently have a list or can attract affiliates, your offer is essentially dead in the water because the marketplace is crowded (unless you're active out here, promote your sig, and drive traffic yourself).

To get the affiliates, sometimes the product suffers. One of the elements to attracting affiliates is a funnel with at least one OTO. Some sellers will 'thin out' the frontend just for the sake of offering an OTO. Add in some hype, a sales page that converts, 100% commissions on the frontend, chances are you'll have success.

But the buyer suffers when things like this happen. Frustrated people will not only lash out on that sellers thread, but carry an attitude into any other offer they see/buy.

Yes, there are people out there that buy and demand the world from you. But not everyone who refunds is a 'serial refunder'. There are sellers that have no business selling and irrational buyers that shouldn't be buying.

It is what it is when it comes to WSO's... it takes balls to sell on this forum.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Hess

In the 'old days' it was simple. You have a product, list it in the WSO section, it cost $20 to bump, your listing lasted on the first page for 24-36 hours. It was profitable from organic Warrior traffic.

Now, you need affiliates to drive traffic. If you don't currently have a list or can attract affiliates, your offer is essentially dead in the water because the marketplace is crowded (unless you're active out here, promote your sig, and drive traffic yourself).

I totally Agree Mark. I was going to bring that up but in a different way.
I remember back in the day when it was $20 for a WSO bump.
It was doubled to $40 to try and clean up the WSO section from
"crap" offers. It didn't work. What happened is everyone that runs WSO's
ends up needing to double the hype in order to make a profit.

I remember having several WSO's that made me about $30 - $40 on
average every bump. That was fine when it was $20 for a bump,
because I made a small profit, and got those people on my list.
I could sell them my other products and almost always did.

Now with a WSO being $40 those small profit margins are gone.
No one can work for free, so vendors end up doubling the hype
and doing a harder sell just to break even or make that small
profit that used to be much easier. How much easier ?
I would say 50% easier back in the day when a WSO was half
the cost of what it is now.

I think this was a big factor in the decline of honesty in sales
copy and of course that creates a snow-ball effect. The buyer
ends up expecting more because of the hype, and the vendor
works twice as hard now to sell to an already angry audience.

I vote we go back to $20 per bump in the WSO section.
Less for the Warrior Forum ? I doubt it. With more successful
vendors, happier customers buying more often, and less hype
in the sales copy to break even I would say there would be
more offers running in no time.

Or perhaps go up in the initial listing price, and down on the bump ?
Like $80 to list a new WSO, but $20 to bump ?
That would weed out a LOT of crap REALLY fast.
No crap offer could stand a chance, but some one like
myself that is willing to invest in my business and already
pay $100 for WF banner ads would be fine with it.

It would create a marketplace where only really good products
can handle the $80 listing fee. With less competition that offer
now stands a better chance of making sales, and stays on page one
much longer. The $20 bumps would allow a good vendor to recoup
from the $80 listing fee over time. This would cut down on crap offers,
hyped sales copy, keep offers on page 1 longer, and create a marketplace
where the buyers are generally more happy.
Which means more sales and less refunds for vendors.

Just my 2 cents.

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Mark Hess

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

I vote we go back to $20 per bump in the WSO section.
Less for the Warrior Forum ? I doubt it. With more successful
vendors, happier customers buying more often, and less hype
in the sales copy to break even I would say there would be
more offers running in no time.

Just my 2 cents.

One thing you have to keep in mind was that there were A LOT less offers so yours would stay on the first page longer leading to more views... whether it's $20 or $40 doesn't matter. It's the shear volume of new products hitting the marketplace everyday that drives down your thread title which results in less views... so you need affiliates.

It's just a lot more competitive as people are lined up with picks and shovels in hand trying to strike it rich on here.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Hess

One thing you have to keep in mind was that there were A LOT less offers so yours would stay on the first page longer leading to more views... whether it's $20 or $40 doesn't matter. It's the shear volume of new products hitting the marketplace everyday that drives down your thread title which results in less views... so you need affiliates.

It's just a lot more competitive as people are lined up with picks and shovels in hand trying to strike it rich on here.

Hi Mark. I agree, that's why I sugested going up with the listing price.
$80 should scare away any crap offer types before they list.
Then a $20 bump would be a way for the vendor to recoup over time.

It would get rid of the crap offers, thin out the listings so more time
on page one, and it would also create a better environment for less
sales copy hype, which in turn would reduce the expectations of the
buyers. That would translate into happy vendors selling to happier
buyers with less hype sales copy and longer time on page one.

Just my 1.93 cents

( echange rate

)

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

Hi Mark. I agree, that's why I sugested going up with the listing price.
$80 should scare away any crap offer types before they list.
Then a $20 bump would be a way for the vendor to recoup over time.

It would get rid of the crap offers, thin out the listings so more time
on page one, and it would also create a better environment for less
sales copy hype, which in turn would reduce the expectations of the
buyers. That would translate into happy vendors selling to happier
buyers with less hype sales copy and longer time on page one.

Just my 1.93 cents

( echange rate

)

Personally, I would rather see a $200 or even higher listing fee. Anyone claiming to make $500/daily should have no problem paying that price.

However, if you did raise the price, you'd see a ton less WSOs which would be less profitable for the forum. Some of the people who sell those make their first sale by selling a make money WSO.

Plus, the listing price on mainly Free, $1, $5 and $7 can't be too high anyways. I don't quite get why you'd want to deal with the clientele involved with that price but... that's just me.

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Daniel Evans

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Personally, I would rather see a $200 or even higher listing fee. Anyone claiming to make $500/daily should have no problem paying that price.

All WSO's are not self contained money making systems.

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Evans

All WSO's are not self contained money making systems.

Most of them are pretty ridiculous.

One WSO had rave reviews, was $26 and had this neat little sales pitch.

In one of his videos, he was instructing users how to type in Google.com in your web browser and how to open your browser.... People found the damn WSO, put in their payment information and bought a product but don't know what an address bar is or how to open a browser. Seems legit to me.

Some WSO's I've bought out of pure curiosity to see what kind of junk was in them and I can confidently say, not a single one of them has not made me want to punch through the monitor.

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Daniel Evans

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Some WSO's I've bought out of pure curiosity to see what kind of junk was in them and I can confidently say, not a single one of them has not made me want to punch through the monitor.

(..and that's what you got).

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

$500 per day listing..minimum 10 day contract. That means you need $5K to list a wso. Now anyone GENUINELY earning, that's not gonna be a problem. Now, that is the Closest your ever going to come to a legitimate WSO. That is the clearest message you can send out to anyone that your WSO they are about to invest in is of substance and not just an empty box of shit.

Yeah, right. Only people with a bunch of cash lying around are honest and launch good products. All that would do is eliminate most people from the market in the WF.

Money has no soul dude, it doesn't care about you or your emotions...and nor do I

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

And also some sort of system, where you can switch off comments and stuff like that...just the listing, because you only need a couple of morons to turn against you and your rep is trashed...that is risky..proper risky.

Another good idea. Remove all accountability.

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

General omnibus reply...

* Some WSOs are great, some are average, some suck. Some are over-hyped and some are understated. Trying to paint them all with the same brush is pointless.

If you keep having the same experience over and over, maybe you need to look at your decision-making process and change how you buy.

* As far as the "show us you used it" refund policies, you want to be careful with those. We had a situation recently where the seller set that policy, but the product wasn't clear enough for people to actually be sure what they were supposed to do.

You can imagine the ensuing arguments.

The "will refund if the product doesn't work as advertised" was a fairly common one for a while. Sellers would reply to any claim with "It works as advertised. No refunds." Yes, even when the product did NOT work as advertised, or when multiple sensible customers with the necessary experience couldn't get it to work at all.

Then there are the ones who use the "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed" graphics on their order buttons, and hide qualifiers to that policy in odd places in the copy.

If you use a "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed" logo anywhere in your offer, that is your policy. Using that image and hiding qualifiers in the copy will be treated as an active effort at deception.

* The folks advocating higher pricing for ad spots seem not to grok the history or vision of the forum in general.

In my experience, the best value in that section isn't generally in the offers that get heavily promoted by "the usual" affiliates. It's in the software and graphics created by people who are more focused on their product than their marketing.

Those are often new folks in this end of the business. We have always tried to encourage people when they're getting started, and I don't see how it helps anyone to charge a graphic designer, or the guy who creates a cool new plugin, $5000 to offer their products here.

Raise the prices a lot and you'll find that the ones who will pay the fees are the ones doing the outrageous pitches and pushing multiple OTOs, with dozens of affiliates lined up to email for them.

Is that really the direction anyone thinks we ought to go?

* Random thought: Why would anyone buy something expecting junk and then get mad when they get junk? That seems silly.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Yep. There should be a section for Graphics designers, I'm not bashing you, I'm sure you produce good work.

It actually wouldn't affect me unless it also cost $5K to list in Complete Sites for Sale or Warriors for Hire because it's rare that I list one of my offers as a WSO, but I tend to agree with Paul that if it costs $5K to list in the WSO section, then the very people who have sales pages packed full of income promises, unsubstantiated claims and hype, and a ton of affiliates are going to be the only ones left standing.

These have always been the products that I personally avoid, but often look for an info product when I need to brush up on something like ... say copywriting or another skill that I'm weaker at. I've found some amazing info products that fit my criteria but I doubt that these would have been available at that kind of pricing structure.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

It's not removing accountability, it's called having a support desk.

There is difference between accountability and outright bashing the living crap out of someone just because their product didn't jump out of the box and do a funny dance.

If there was real products being sold there and not just tell all for $3.95, $7, $9.95 you might see a better kind of person hanging there.

Instead of all the tyre kicking magic pill searchers.

Bashing the living crap out of sellers is just flat out not allowed. The seller needs to be aware that if the "reviews" aren't fair and accurate and if they constitute a personal attack, that a mod will remove them if reported.

As for a support desk, I agree that if it's a support issue, it should go to the advertised support desk first and only come back to the thread if it is unresolved or unanswered.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

DM,

It's not removing accountability, it's called having a support desk.

Suzanne was talking about the feedback that's left by paying customers. If you remove that, you get rid of any and all brakes on over-hyping a product.

Ya know, it's kind of funny. We see people all the time claiming that we delete negative comments from customers (an easily disproved bit of nonsense), and then we see sellers complaining about "the trolls" who leave negative comments.

Paul

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Daniel Evans

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

I can tell you flat out, I would list a WSO if that was made to be rule.

I would list here ...I would.

Something like:

$500 per day listing..minimum 10 day contract.

That means you need $5K to list a wso. Now anyone GENUINELY earning, that's not gonna be a problem.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

I have about maybe 7-10 ideas for WSO's that would sell like crazy,

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

That let's buyers know, this guy must be earning.

Not pouncing, but I've noted your posts have alligned yourself to a sizable commitment...

Can we conclude then that once you manifest these ideas, you'd be in a willing position to pay as much as $50,000 (5K x 10) every 10 days to advertise your products and the information within each, which you'd employ yourself, would warrant you affording that?

I can't help but think that's an almighty onus you've placed upon yourself in a bid to force a change, however, the unlikeliness of that very change being implemented clearly stands as your safehold from having to demonstrate that supposed intention.

As a person who can so readily afford those said advertising costs (not to mention your net profit) you shouldn't let such potential be hindered whether that change is implemented or not.

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bwh1 11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

If it changed in there to a climate where I could get $100, yep..I'd pay it, cos I know I could sell 5 in a day.

Sorry, couldn't help myself but...

are you in this to break even?

All that what we discuss here could be managed by a STRICT REVIEW before a WSO get's approved.

I told this before but got slapped.

To maintain a certain quality level you have to invest a bit into controlling the products you are selling over your channel.

That is a odd job and lower your output, but that can be compensated by a higher WSO price - no problem. When there are 20 new WSOs posted right now, it will go maybe down to 5 - 8 a day.

The sellers will have to pay 4x the price of posting a WSO, and have to ask $19.95 in stead of $9.95.

So what? If those are good and worth the money no one will complain and the WF will get a trust level many other places are dreaming off.

Sometimes less is more.

G.
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

You can conclude what you like bro.

er...nope..that's not what I said.

$500 per day is what I said..do you consider that a lot of money to spend if your average product is $100, you'd have to sell 5.

Do you know what the cost is for Clickbanks homepage?..that's upwards of $1,500 per day last I heard from my buddy.

But you wouldn't get $100 in that section the way it is, because of all the crappy $7 offers attracting people who want the earth and not prepared to pay for it.

If it changed in there to a climate where I could get $100, yep..I'd pay it, cos I know I could sell 5 in a day.

The biggest problem with that is it would eliminate talented newcomers and even more experienced sellers who don't market to the dreamer market.

Not all buyers are dreamers. I'm not. I guarantee you that the majority of WSOs that I've bought wouldn't be possible under that price rate for the WSO forum and that would be a big loss. Unlike others, I'm completely happy with the big majority of what I purchase. Recent purchases that overdelivered on what they promised that I've bought are press release services, a video course on ecommerce, graphic packages, a social media service, and a bit riskier, SEO services. I buy content and themes for Wordpress all the time. I learned how to create mobile websites from two WSOs. I've bought a lot of great plugins and software and normally will buy them even if I don't have an immediate need for them.

I think that dreamers have to take 50% of the blame for their purchasing decisions. It's why I don't market to that segment. I don't respect that customer base and you need or should respect your customers. I don't understand people who are so easily taken in by hype and fake promises.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Going by at least 50% of the claims ( DISCLAIMER: not statistcal fact - DM's assumption) in that section $500 per day listing shouldn't be a problem as long as it is profitable for the vendor to do so.

$500 p/d 10 day contract is enough of a filter.

I agree that a price structure change would make a diffrence,
that's why I suggested it. However I agree with Paul on the
fact that many new marketers come here and deserve a chance
to get started. NO ONE starting out can afford a single $500 listing
fee or $5,000 to run their first WSO. That's just too much.

My suggestion was for $80 listing fee and $20 bumps after that.
This way it cleans up the offers available, increases time on
page one for your WSO when it's bumped, and as you said,
any REAL vendor making money can afford to spend more up front,
then recoup the profit margin with $20 bumps.

This would not stop people from running WSO's at all.
There would not be anything "less" except junk offers.
There would be MORE time on page one, BETTER offers,
Slightly less competition and that means less need for hype.
This would create an environment where there are generally
happy buyers and more of them.

I see a lot of posts saying " I won't buy WSO's anymore "
but if the quality improved with changes like this,
maybe you will in the future.

I think a price increase on the listing but a lower bump price would
fix this issue quicky. $80 is DOUBLE what it is now, and that's a huge
increase. Just like when it went from $20 to $40.
Any good vendor can handle $80 and that's also a fair price
for a new person to come in to the WSO section and get started
without it costing them 4 mortgage payments.

Some people are great product creators, and will offer great service,
but that doesn't mean they have $5,000 lying around.

I think it would be worth trying a higher listing fee with a lower bump
price. It would be the best of both worlds. double it to $80 for the
initial listing, then $20 for a bump. Some one said the forum would lose
money ? I don't think so. The listings would be double !
MANY WSO's are only posted once and never bumped because they
vendor didn't make enough to make it worth while and abandoned it.
If the listing fee is double ( $80 ) then the forum is DOUBLING it's income.

All those WSO's that don't cut it won't get bumped again if they lost
too much on the first run, and the product and service from the vendor
isn't enough to support the WSO on the long term. Anyone that
really backs their product, has good service, and a GOOD product,
will be able to sustain the loss of money from the first run.
The lower bump price will make up for it in the long term, but only
really good vendors with good products would bother doing it.

I would love to see an $80 WSO listing fee with $20 bumps after
that. I really think that would be the "best" route and would be
worth testing. How 'bout trying it out Warrior Forum ?

cheers

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kaposzta

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

^Yes mate. Spot on.

I can tell you flat out, I would list a WSO if that was made to be rule.

I would list here ...I would.

Something like:

$500 per day listing..minimum 10 day contract.

That means you need $5K to list a wso. Now anyone GENUINELY earning, that's not gonna be a problem.

Now, that is the Closest your ever going to come to a legitimate WSO.

That is the clearest message you can send out to anyone that your WSO they are about to invest in is of substance and not just an empty box of shit.

Since the lister has the presence of cash to even be there in the first place.

It's too easy to say "I make ,XXX per day" and spam a few faked out Testimonials and maybe some faked out screenies too.

If this forum raised the bar in that sort of way, I'd get more involved.

But as it stands, there are TONS and TONS of outright BS'ers right now.

The $7 wso crap.

And also some sort of system, where you can switch off comments and stuff like that...just the listing, because you only need a couple of morons to turn against you and your rep is trashed...that is risky..proper risky.

I think the quality of that section and this forum as a whole would change, because at the moment it is god-awful.

A pricing structure like that would be interesting.

If people started selling real products with a real pricing structure $100+ I would list there. I would.

I have about maybe 7-10 ideas for WSO's that would sell like crazy, I know they would, but I just cannot be assed with BS that falls out from here/there.

$0.02

I think this is a very interesting idea. There should be a "Premium WSOs" section for the expensive and quality stuff. If someone pays hundreds (or thousands) for the listing, their WSO must be awesome.

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GlenH

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kaposzta

I think this is a very interesting idea. There should be a "Premium WSOs" section for the expensive and quality stuff. If someone pays hundreds (or thousands) for the listing, their WSO must be awesome.

I think the idea of a 'Premium WSO's section is a solid one, but at say $200 for a listing.

It would at least give WF members some confidence about the quality of the products in that section.

However, Admin and the moderators would have to get a lot more involved because every product would have to somehow be vetted to determine it's suitability to be included as a 'Premium WSO'.

None of this would be easy for all sorts of reasons, but at least it starts a long overdue discussion on this.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

All that what we discuss here could be managed by a STRICT REVIEW before a WSO get's approved.

I told this before but got slapped.

If by "slapped" you mean that the reasons it won't happen were explained to you, I believe it. You need to consider what would be required to make it happen.

Philosophically, I am opposed to the notion that any single individual or panel is better equipped to make decisions for your business than you are.

The practical issues are many. The first and largest is setting the standard for "quality." There is no way you'd get any standard that wouldn't generate at least as much ranting and noise as we have on the subject now.

Then there's the question of expertise. To properly assess a product for sale, you have to be fairly knowledgeable in the field the product covers. And people with the required expertise are not going to spend time rating someone else's products for free. They're going to require being paid for every review, even if they don't approve the product.

Given how many of these products are multi-hour video sets, you're talking about people with significant expertise doing nothing but reviewing products, full-time. Where do you suggest we acquire a stable of such experts?

Then there's the whole "conflict of interest" question. You may safely wager every penny you can get your hands on that a significant percentage of the people whose products were refused would claim the reviewer was a competitor, or had some other personal agenda that made them biased and represented a conflict of interest.

And, of course, there's the fact that reviewing products this way would give people the impression that the forum endorsed whatever was being sold.

That is simply not going to happen.

There are more, but the expertise question alone is enough to make it an unfeasible suggestion.

Paul

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bwh1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If by "slapped" you mean that the reasons it won't happen were explained to you, I believe it. You need to consider what would be required to make it happen.

That is simply not going to happen.

There are more, but the expertise question alone is enough to make it an unfeasible suggestion.

Paul

Yep Paul, with slapped I meant that the issue was not taken into consideration basically using the arguments you gave here.

All very valid and fully understandable, just to be clear.

But I'm maybe a bit old school here and think that a site which has a section for selling products and makes money with it HAS a co-responsibility about the quality of the products sold.

Off course you can argue as to what extend but even Google-Youtube lost lawsuits lately in respect to harmful content published in their network. No chance to say some like - Youtube is a user driven content site and the videos are all responsibility of the users only - not anymore.

This is totally normal in the offline world with any form of hardware or goods, and services.

Imagine to have a tool supply shop and sell garbage tools from China which break after you use them 3 times.

Dare someone to have a grocery store and resell food which was delivered today but out of date.

Both have to check the quality of what they sell and control and review deliveries. Sometimes they have to open a package and test the product. I've done this when I had my offline business.

So ultimately if you have a WSO section specifically designed to SELL GOODS like a shop where you CHARGE people money to do so you are offering a business platform and are to some extend responsible for the quality of the goods sold in there. Different with the "Warriors for Hire" section by the way or of the WSO section would be a "Free To Post" area.

I'm not a lawyer, so this is not based on any legal facts, just simple business logic based on my experience.and what I can see is going on Online.

Clickbank changed their strategy and they start to review products before they go life, even of you already have a merchant account. They are a wholesaler of the products, so their position is a bit different then the WF, I agree, but is that CLEAR for a consumer?

Ultimately the question is - Does that make any difference from a customer point of view which pays for quality regardless the price?

I know that all you mentioned is a hard task, not easy at all. This will COST something which needs to be collected somewhere. But reviewers which are in IM for a few years have the possibility to judge a product based on their experience and a few rules you would have to establish (already in the WSO rules).

I personally never put lipstick on a pig, even of I got a free review copy. Just not my style and there are several Warriors out there which act this way.

And how many of us got great Articles denied at EA, no rights to ask "why".

I believe that someone could review about 100 products a month (4 a day for 25 days). If you can crossread you can go over a PDF very quick, and videos can be viewed in parts, only the most important points to get a good grip about the content.

If you pay 2k for such a reviewer it would cost everybody which submit a product $20 bucks to cover that - not a lot money in my point of view. That money is gone for whom submits for review, and only after he get's approval he would need to pay for the WSO itself.

Off course certain things can never be given like a warranty that a reviewed WSO guarantees any income or so, but that's really not the issue and people know this.

The approval should confirm stuff like that the content is
- UNIQUE and not based on PLR
- that the content delivers all what the sales copy promises
- that the content is not only half of a product where you need to buy the OTO to make it work as promised
- the sales copy related on real figures the seller made (if he claims) and not some hyped stuff based on theory
- some other basic rules which can give a buyer more security without to escalate the work involved and also not discriminating any products.

PS: I once purchased a WSO where the seller claimed to make x a month with the system, where I after the purchase found out that he based this on the fact that he did x a day, which he then multiplied by 30 to get the bigger figure? Be creative and make it bigger, easy as that.

It is most probably not possible to be fair and balanced to ALL who wanna post once in their life a WSO but hey...

YOU run the show here - your rules.

This is maybe fiction, don't know, but I believe that it is in your own interests to improve the consumer experiences in stead of lowering it. The increase of volume of WSO automatically leads to lower quality.

I know it's not the forums fault that products are bad, but in my opinion it's the forums co-responsibility if those get published and sold.

G.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bwh1

If you pay 2k for such a reviewer it would cost everybody which submit a product $20 bucks to cover that - not a lot money in my point of view. That money is gone for whom submits for review, and only after he get's approval he would need to pay for the WSO itself.

Here's the problem though. Even if WSO's were first reviewed and approved by someone experienced first, that is still only ONE person's opinion. What you consider to be quality and what I consider to be quality might be two very different things -- in fact in most cases it always will be.

If you are on the mailing lists of a number of WSO sellers you will find this is especially true. What one marketer finds quality is very different to another -- this is proven by some of the crap I see these marketers peddling on a daily basis. There are some products people promote that I would never even dream of promoting... but they are more than happy to put their name behind it because their idea of quality/value is obviously lower than mine. And these are even some of the more experienced marketers around here, the sorts of people you are saying should be reviewing these WSO's.

It is up to the buyer to do their own research first. As always, "caveat emptor". If a product is crap then ask for your money back. Those selling rubbish products don't last long around here anyway.

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bwh1

I believe that someone could review about 100 products a month (4 a day for 25 days). If you can crossread you can go over a PDF very quick, and videos can be viewed in parts, only the most important points to get a good grip about the content.

If you pay 2k for such a reviewer it would cost everybody which submit a product $20 bucks to cover that - not a lot money in my point of view. That money is gone for whom submits for review, and only after he get's approval he would need to pay for the WSO itself..

The whole reviewing concept will be useless unless there's a continual supply of reviewers who have demonstrated expertise in IM and are making a full-time income from it. These people would have spent a lot of time and energy to build up their businesses; how many of these qualified experts are going to commit to reviewing 100 WSOs every month? How much time do you think such an expert will be willing to devote to a single WSO for a measly $20, and do that 100 times over? These people have worked hard to make a good income, in most cases at least some of that in passive income. How much of their time at this point will they give for $20? Enough to do a thorough enough review that means something?

There are plenty of products sold in the other paid sections, like Classifieds, Websites for Sale, Hosting, etc. It doesn't make sense to review WSOs and ignore these other sections. Altogether, I'd guess there are at least 100 new paid threads submitted in these various sections each and every day. So right off the bat, you'd have to find 30 or 40 qualified experts. But that's based on the dubious assumption that they're all going to commit to 100 per month. If some or many of them commit to fewer reviews each month, then you need more like 70 to 100 qualified experts. And that's not counting the likely turnover as people resign from reviewing.

In addition, a good number of WSOs are for services, such as backlinking, SEO, and various writing services. How does anyone review that in advance?

I appreciate the time you put into your post and the suggestions contained in it, but I still find Paul's arguments against a reviewing system (as well as Roger/ExRat's post above) much more persuasive.

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George Wright 11 years ago

bwh1,

You are talking apples and oranges.

You can't lump the WSO forum with a retail store that sells goods. Well you "can" however you would be wrong.

The retail store accepts the money, delivers the product and agrees to back up what it sells.

The WSO forum does none of that. Allen does not collect the money for products, he does not deliver the product and he has publicly stated that he has no control over the products other than enforcing certain rules over which he has a measure of control.

Compare the WSO forum to a classified ad section in a newspaper and notice how much more effort this forum administration exerts to help us have a relativaly decent buying experience.

I buy a car (a lemon) from a classified ad in a news paper and I'd look like a fool if I took the publisher to court to recoup my loss.

I'd be told I had the responsibility to kick the tires, listen to the motor and have my mechanic take a look at it. Some judges would tell me to "Grow Up" and take responsibility for my own actions and not try to have others, such as the Classified Publisher hold my hand. (anybody know Judge Judy?)

IMHO

George Wright
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GlenH

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Corey Geer

Personally, I would rather see a $200 or even higher listing fee. Anyone claiming to make $500/daily should have no problem paying that price.

However, if you did raise the price, you'd see a ton less WSOs which would be less profitable for the forum. Some of the people who sell those make their first sale by selling a make money WSO.

Plus, the listing price on mainly Free, $1, $5 and $7 can't be too high anyways. I don't quite get why you'd want to deal with the clientele involved with that price but... that's just me.

From a long standing WF members point of view, I definitely think a significant increase in the WSO listing fee is long overdue (to $100 +).

Of course from the WF owners point of view, that would probably be unpalatable.

But with so many WSO's of questionable being released, there are plenty of members who now simply won't order a WSO, so then that affects every member who does have a legitimate, quality WSO to offer.

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Icanwrite

11 years ago

I feel like I have to add my 2 cents here coz I have myself come across a WSO which "I wont use" and hence requested for a refund.

Now there are many reasons one wont "use" a WSO -
1. You are lazy
2. You dont have time
3. You wanna be a mean ass to the seller
4. You are dumb

My reason was that the WSO was black hat - something that could put my (and others who implement it) account/reputation/IP at a huge risk by breaking copyright laws across the globe. Hence I WONT use it. I didnt want to put that in the WSO thread coz being a WSO seller myself, I dont want to ruin someone's reputation . So I said it as politely as possible on his thread. I feel it's only fair to be nice to sellers while ensuring they keep up to their part of the deal. Win win for all !

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dukestravels1972

11 years ago

The sale of digital goods on here is ungoverned and has no protection or sense of trade rules for the buyer or seller. The distribution of digital goods on the web is generally like this anyway. There's so much crap being sold that peoples demands on sellers are higher. You sell on a black market, you have no real reason to complain about black market buyers. Open a shop on the high street if you want protection from moaning buyers.

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simonjwarner

11 years ago

There is simply not enough organic traffic on the WSO section now and far too many trolls

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Bill Hugall

11 years ago

I have found that by telling them in the refund policy that if after applied it doesn't work I will gladly refund them their money. I am no authority with only 150 sales, but not a single refund request. Seems simple enough.

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seobuzz

11 years ago

And you should also agree that those buyers who ask for the refund, don't even bother to read the full WSO sales page and the description. Most of them just click it on 'Buy Now' and think, they will become millionaire after clicking that 'Buy now' button only! But when they actually get the WSO, they realize (although I have doubt on this!) it is not possible to become a millionaire just by clicking a button.

And that is very annoying!

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

And also some sort of system, where you can switch off comments and stuff like that...just the listing, because you only need a couple of morons to turn against you and your rep is trashed...that is risky..proper risky.

You know you're successful and you're doing something right when you're pissing people off. Look up any of the top brand name IM gurus and look up reviews on them. People get angry as hell when they purchase things and it doesn't turn out to be an instant solution to all the world's problems.

Musicians/Actors get death threats all the time just because some people don't like their work.

People are insane. It doesn't matter what you do, not everyone's going to like you or like what you do. On the other side of what you said, a lot of people hire people from the "Looking To Hire" section of the forum specifically for the purpose of creating positive comments.

If people are really surprised that people in business for themselves are dirty and low down, you should really see how corporations work on the inside, it'll make your jaw drop how careless and dirty they get for the slightest reason or benefit.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

While it's somewhat off topic, I would like to see categories in the WSO Section, save people wading through all the "SEO" experts.

Nothing absurd, no need to categorize to death but something like:

SEO Services.
Graphic Design
Coding Services
CPA /PPC / Media Buying .
Scripts / Wordpress Plugins
Coaching Programs and 1 on 1
Offline Promotions
Social Media Services

That kind of thing.

I think that would help folks see what they need more clearly.

I would still suggest a "view all" for those that enjoy wading through the mayhem.

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Corey Geer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

While it's somewhat off topic, I would like to see categories in the WSO Section, save people wading through all the "SEO" experts.

Nothing absurd, no need to categorize to death but something like:

SEO Services.
Graphic Design
Coding Services
CPA /PPC / Media Buying .
Scripts / Wordpress Plugins
Coaching Programs and 1 on 1
Offline Promotions
Social Media Services

That kind of thing.

I think that would help folks see what they need more clearly.

I would still suggest a "view all" for those that enjoy wading through the mayhem.

You mean true and professional SEO is going to cost me more than $67 a month? lol :rolleyes:

Categories is a bad idea. Isn't this what Digital Point did and then the traffic/earnings for these products sank slightly? I remember selling eBooks and they sold like hot cakes. However, as soon as they changed it around, the sales dropped by a very considerably sized number.

Also, you forgot the "Get Rich Quick" category.

Product marketers for categories that didn't get a lot of views would be discouraged from posting there. Having a forum where thousands of people at any given moment and sometimes over ten thousand people is the best ideal situation for product marketers and the forum administrator.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Those seem at best vague guesses and this isn't DP.

My bet is those with decent products in their respective categories would favor not being thrown in with every other non relevant wso's. They would have a far greater chance of actually being noticed in the sea of crazy that is the current WSO section.

Not only that, the people looking in those sections would be people specifically looking for that kind of information, so more targeted, less window shoppers , more serious purchases.. perhaps, admittedly guess work but educated guess work at that.

There's a reason almost any selling platform e-commerce solution has categories and doesn't lump every single product type into one category alone.

Those who prefer window shopping the lot can use "view all. " mode.

There's no real downside and plenty if organisational upside.

I'm willing to wager folks would release decent wso content at sane prices if they were not all lumped in with low rent crud, they would actually stand a chance of people seeing the thing for all the effort they put in.

From my perspective I would rather have my WSO I'm a category of 10 products than 500 anyway, even if it potentially had less views. The negatives to my mind don't come close to outweighing the positives.

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Mohsin Rasool

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Those seem at best vague guesses and this isn't DP.

My bet is those with decent products in their respective categories would favor not being thrown in with every other thrown in with non relevant wso's

Those looking for something specific would be able to find what they want

Those who prefer window shopping the lot can use view all.

There's no real downside and plenty if organisational upside.

Willing to wager folks would release decent wso content at sane prices if they were not all lumped in with low rent crud.

From my perspective I would rather have my WSO I'm a category of 10 products than 500 anyway, even if it potentially had less views.

Hi,

I do not like to have more categories of forums, as it starts feeling lonely in sub-forums

But i really like your idea, as this will really separate the stuff in relevant categories,
what about having Official TAGS for specific types..and any Warrior Can easily Sort WSO's
using those tags... and only ONE TAG allowed per WSO to define its category like it is in W4H section...

I see so many Warriors interested in graphics and software products, but as a seller of WP plugin which I worked for months to prefect, I see it is kinda a hard to get attention without all those money making claims in the thread title and wso copy.

Regards,
Mohsin

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Tyler S

11 years ago

Its unfortunate, but refunds have become a part of the im niche.

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Dailybread

11 years ago

I must be an anomaly on WF.

I have bought quite a number of WSOs in the last few years. Some excellent, some good, some a waste of time for me. I have never refunded a WSO because 9 out of 10 times I have learned something that made the $7 - $15 worthwhile. I don't seriously expect a $10 WSO to solve all my problems. What I do expect is that I will learn a new skill, a new piece of knowledge, that will fit in to the IM knowledge I am accumulating by hanging around here. If I don't learn anything valuable then I don't buy from that person again. Easy.

Each WSO has been a learning experience for me and I am happy with that and I salute WF for providing this service.

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George Wright

11 years ago

Excellent points Dailybread.

I've said the same thing many times myself whenever a WSO rant was started.

Now I just sit back and watch what happens, the dust settles and a good time is had by all.

Originally Posted by Dailybread

I must be an anomaly on WF.

I have bought quite a number of WSOs in the last few years. Some excellent, some good, some a waste of time for me. I have never refunded a WSO because 9 out of 10 times I have learned something that made the $7 - $15 worthwhile. I don't seriously expect a $10 WSO to solve all my problems. What I do expect is that I will learn a new skill, a new piece of knowledge, that will fit in to the IM knowledge I am accumulating by hanging around here. If I don't learn anything valuable then I don't buy from that person again. Easy.

Each WSO has been a learning experience for me and I am happy with that and I salute WF for providing this service.

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sunray

11 years ago

Some WSO-s are trash, and some WSO buyers are dishonest. Decent people need protection from both. Why not work out a special WF refund policy? Let's imagine a system where refunds are paid out only if a specific percentage of buyers demand it. Let's say... 20%.

If 20% of buyers ask their money back then WSO is clearly not worth much, and it's fair enough that they got refunded. But, if only a few people ask for a refund and all others are satisfied with the product, then we can be sure that it's quality is OK and no refund is justified.

I think one other big problem that WSO sellers currently have would be solved by implementing such a system. Black hat forums distribute pirated WSO-s. I'm absolutely sure they make part of refunds. If they cannot get it any more, new WSO-s stop appearing in their forums, and as a result WSO sellers can make more money.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

This thread is all over the shop now but in regards the pricing issue.

I would say this.

I don't want to see some poor guy / gal who's poured their heart and soul into their first WSO get lumbered with a $500 fee to get it listed.

Over the years folks have got started in the WSO section, and gone on to make fantastic products , yet had not a dime to rub together to start with.

However..

If somebody is allowed to make a claim in a WSO which is akin to

"I make $5000.00 per month using this easy technique in just 2 hours a day" or similar.

Then those people should have ZERO issue stumping up 10% of this easy 2 hours a day revenue to list their amazing magical cash generating WSO.

If the product is that good, and it's so easy and their making $60k per annum doing it in just 2 hours a day, why would 10% of the supposed monthly earnings be a big deal?

I don't want to see all WSO's have huge barriers to entry, it doesn't make sense, many WSO's aren't promising huge revenue, they are offering services or concepts or aren't even directly revenue related.

But those promising the earth and stipulating huge revenue claims should have no problem putting their money where their mouth is.

It may also stop the all to common occurrence of seeing people with a WSO claiming how many thousands of bucks they make every day, then being seen for example, in the copy writing section asking if somebody could do the work for free/cheap because they don't any funds.

The WSO section would be a lot better off in charlatans had a barrier to entry on offers which promise the world, when clearly these people arn't making a dam penny and they just regurgitated an existing concept and wrapped it in their own re-written text and shiny new PDF.

These are the worst for sucking the newbies in.

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi,

Here's a much simpler solution (in my opinion) than all of these conflicting and continual suggestions for changes to the WSO section.

Let the market forces do their work - because they always do anyway and any changes will only slightly affect market forces temporarily - they're unlikely to actually interfere with them in any meaningful way in the long term.

It's a marketplace and it's open for business, that's all that really matters, so get stuck in with your best shots and show the lame ducks how it's done.

No matter what the finer dynamics and rules are, if your stuff is absolutely revolutionary, unique and mind-blowingly awesome it will sell well enough at virtually any price and gain massive word of mouth traction, whatever the reviews and all of that other nonsense because more than likely it will be surrounded by over-hyped junk in a marketplace full of people completely desperate to throw good money at revolutionary, unique and mind-blowingly awesome products/ideas.

Do that right and you should be able to work the market to your advantage regardless of the rules and regs, which (in my opinion) is a much better idea than trying to tweak the rules to suit/please/accommodate everyone and every imaginable variable. Do the latter too much and you start picking up the bad habits of bureaucracies - those are for useless parasites, not innovative wealth creators.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

Let the market forces do their work -

That doesn't seem to have worked very well , if it had, these conversations wouldn't' come up so frequently. Sometimes things need assistance or at least direction. Just sort of hoping it will all pan out in the end doesn't seem adequate.

because they always do anyway and any changes will only slightly affect market forces temporarily - they're unlikely to actually interfere with them in any meaningful way in the long term.
.

Quite possible, then again we just don't know.

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi Midas3 Consulting,

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

That doesn't seem to have worked very well , if it had, these conversations wouldn't' come up so frequently. Sometimes things need assistance or at least direction. Just sort of hoping it will all pan out in the end doesn't seem adequate.

...so keep wasting your time suggesting changes that will most likely never be made and even if they were, will not generally make people more successful which is most peoples primary aim.

Or alternatively read my post again and observe the later parts which you didn't quote, which suggest being pro-active rather re-active, innovative rather than regulative.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Midas3 Consulting,
...so keep wasting your time suggesting changes that will most likely never be made and even if they were, will not generally make people more successful which is most peoples primary aim.

Hi ExRat...

You're entitled to your opinion of course but stating something is a waste of time, doesn't make it so.

Making suggestions that may or may not be adopted isn't a total waste of time, although you may be quite right, they may not be adopted it doesn't negate the entire point of the discussion, often variants on initial ideas can transpire from conversations like this that do make sense to the WF team, discussion point has to start somewhere.

It's a step up from expecting change without change..

The entire "Hire Warriors" section was based on a discussion just like this, there is precedent.

I don't agree that additional measures of some kind, won't assist in helping people be more successful. It should be noted some changes may help both buyers and sellers.

Or alternatively read my post again and observe the later parts which you didn't quote, which suggest being pro-active rather re-active, innovative rather than regulative.

There's no disagreement that the very best should rise to the top, it doesn't mean it should stand alone as the "solution" or it's the only issue to be looked at. There was no requirement to quote them or comment on them specifically.

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TimCastleman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Look, it's a good money spinner for a few, I get that, but the unreasonable flack SOME WSO sellers take is out of control.

I was a bit bored in between stuffing turkey down my gullet and thought I would pop into the WSO section for the first time in absolutely years.

I grabbed a handful , see what was doing the rounds nowadays, lots of rehashed stuff from years gone by but a few decent little gigs as well.

What struck me was what a dire lot SOME WSO buyers on this forum are.

Seeing people moaning that a WSO seller hadn't refunded them on Boxing day, jeez, can these people not have any break with their families?

Will your entire life dissolve without your $7 back!!!!

I read the WSO, it was basic but contained actionable information, it was white hat, it would require some work but it's based on solid foundations with a little twist the owner had developed for research using a combination of tools.

It was well put together, short but sweet to the point, no harm in that.

Yet he has to refund somebody on the basis that

"it's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately"

Man, not only that , some have nagged him twice, I think one of the moans even got posted on Christmas day.

Folks moan about WSO's and often rightly so but SOME WSO customers are a joke, moaning about having to wait 24 hours over a holiday for $7 or requesting refunds because they "won't use it", why is THAT the WSO sellers fault?

People need to get a grip, it's quite clear in the description what the WSO is about , if you don't want to do video marketing why buy a WSO on video marketing. Far to many serial refunders about.

Jeez, glad I don't sell WSO's must be infuriating at times.

Hey there -

Here's a serious question for you - can I have your baby?

Great post ;-)

Tim

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Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

Hey there -

Here's a serious question for you - can I have your baby?

Tim

I already found somebody in the Warriors to hire section Tim, we're very happy but thanks for the offer :-)
- Thanks
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bizwisard

11 years ago

It doesn't take much to realize that everybody is flocking online to make some money. Relying on traditional money making activities is very much a struggle in order to make ends meet. The internet has now become the place where people are seeking that golden solution to their financial troubles and commitments.

Most people today are awash with credit card debt, mortgage burdens and auto loans. In addition to this people have to contend with taking care of feeding, educating and taking care of their families health needs. Traditional employees are now embracing becoming online entrepreneurs in a quest to reach that level of financial security.

With hundreds of thousands of individuals rushing online today, opportunities are abound. Many new programs and businesses are starting up in order to get a slice of this pie. Programs from MLM, HYIPS, Cash Gifting to Betting programs are attempting to lure that massive surge of people online.

Unfortunately, many people are not getting their needs met and end up losing money.

On the other hand their are those few that would bitch if they were buried in a gold coffin and would not know a good thing if it slapped them in the face

I have bought numerous WSO,s from this forum and have found that the content of the venders here is much better for the price than most any other sales platform , "bar none".

I believe that most of the time you get what you pay for, and so ,When you come here to be educated be prepared to pay the price .

Most people know this but there will always be the few that are lazy and want everything handed to them for nothing with "NO WORK" .

I predict that the refund issue will continue to digress as our society becomes more socialist in "Free" giveaway programming .

I always try to remember that there are two different kinds of people in the world.

There are GIVERS and there are TAKERS ,Which are YOU ?

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bwh1

11 years ago

OK guy's, you convinced me, reviewing WSO's is impossible so let's forget this.

It's just sad to see a place go in a direction we certainly don't want. But I believe that you agree that a improvement would be a nice thing to have.

So how's about having a sellers rating system (maybe with stars) like a seller rating at Fiverr or similar?

Could be for each WSO or for the seller in generall for who run's several WSO's.

Buyers will get the possibility to rate the WSO they purchased and/or the seller anonymously on a scale from 1 - 5 (or something similar) which will be shown in the thread.

Guess products and support will improve with this.

That would also be difficult to be influenced by the WSO affiliates which post many times a great review just so his list will go to the WSO and see he purchased it.

Would that be possible to implement?

G.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bwh1

OK guy's, you convinced me, reviewing WSO's is impossible so let's forget this.

It's just sad to see a place go in a direction we certainly don't want. But I believe that you agree that a improvement would be a nice thing to have.

So how's about having a sellers rating system (maybe with stars) like a seller rating at Fiverr or similar?

Could be for each WSO or for the seller in generall for who run's several WSO's.

Buyers will get the possibility to rate the WSO they purchased and/or the seller anonymously on a scale from 1 - 5 (or something similar) which will be shown in the thread.

Guess products and support will improve with this.

That would also be difficult to be influenced by the WSO affiliates which post many times a great review just so his list will go to the WSO and see he purchased it.

Would that be possible to implement?

G.

We've also had debates over this type of idea before and it was also deemed fairly worthless. Any type of rating system could too easily be manipulated just like the people on eBay who buy hundreds of $1 recipes just to artificially inflate their positive feedback score.

People would pay others to buy and vote for their product just like people buy Facebook likes and Tweets. It's too easy manipulated and thus it wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything.

I honestly think the fairest way is to just leave things how they are now. Those who release shitty products get found out very quickly and they disappear. Those who put out good products stand strong and continue to put out good products.

Do I think things could be improved somehow, sure. But how? I don't think things are 100% perfect the way they are but I don't think we are actually doing too badly as a community. We as a community attracted a lot of the rubbish that comes to this forum but thankfully we as a community are also very quick to uncover those people when they do arrive here.

It seems to me the main people who complain about WSO's are those who buy a lot of them. Those people need to educate themselves on what they should and should not be buying and they need to take more responsibility for their buying actions. If someone is selling a product promising to make you a millionaire for $7, well, I can't really feel sorry for the people who buy it. There has to be some common sense involved in the process and that responsibility needs to fall on the customers taking the money out of their wallet.

The customers also need to keep in mind that if they continue to buy the WSO's with the wild and ridiculous income claims then they are only feeding the problem and encouraging more people to put out similar products. So the buyers are actually part of this problem as well and need to take some of the responsibility.

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bwh1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

People would pay others to buy and vote for their product just like people buy Facebook likes and Tweets. It's too easy manipulated and thus it wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything.

Is there really that much money to be made by a new seller with a mid quality to lousy product what would make it worth that he pays people to buy his WSO so they can rate it?

The lower the price for the WSO the less interest he must have. And the "real" buyers will also lower the quality score naturally as they would give it a 1- 2 maybe.

Guess you talk about those WSO's where you have a bunch of totally new members leaving glowing reviews about how great the product is.

That's when I usually hit the exit button.

Conclusion to all that is - The WSO section will be part of my new year resolutions.

Buy 10% from what I've purchased last year and only stuff I really need.

G.

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi bwh1,

Originally Posted by bwh1

Conclusion to all that is - The WSO section will be part of my new year resolutions.

Buy 10% from what I've purchased last year and only stuff I really need.

You've just highlighted one of the hidden benefits of things staying exactly as they are, which is what I was hinting at above.

Based on how you've worded that, one could assume that you were seeking changes that would ensure that you could continue to spend time and money on stuff that you don't really need.

If the forum were to make all of the changes suggested in this thread, all that they would be achieving would be to provide most people with a bunch of new reasons for not taking responsibility for their own success or failure.

In a years time, an almost identical thread to this one would appear where loads of people would be blaming a fixed or broken ratings system for causing them to be misled into buying more junk and consequently, they would require further changes so that they have a better chance of finding the product that is the goose that lays the golden egg for their business.

Here's the best free WSO anyone could desire (forgive the silly sounding analogy that follows) -

The product containing the goose that lays the golden egg does not exist, but the goose itself can exist. The WSO forum only contains products for sale, so the goose clearly isn't residing in there.

When the student is ready, the goose may appear.

Therefore, anyone seeking the goose should spend their time getting ready, in other words doing things that will encourage it to appear.

Some of the products sold as WSOs may contribute to the process of encouraging the goose to appear, but that is all.

Even if the goose doesn't appear, they may find that due to the things that they have been doing (outside of the WSO forum), they have turned themselves into the goose and they are laying golden eggs aplenty themselves.

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Roger Davis

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

The product containing the goose that lays the golden egg does not exist, but the goose itself can exist. The WSO forum only contains products for sale, so the goose clearly isn't residing in there.

When the student is ready, the goose may appear.

Therefore, anyone seeking the goose should spend their time getting ready, in other words doing things that will encourage it to appear.

Some of the products sold as WSOs may contribute to the process of encouraging the goose to appear, but that is all.

.

Reminds me somewhat of Eric Cantona's seagulls speech, but your analagy holds water, it's about right.

Thanks

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Would that be possible to implement?

You're starting to ask the right kinds of questions.

Possible? Yes, but with some significant technical challenges. Still, those aren't insurmountable.

Does it serve the desired purpose better than some other system? In this case, I don't think so. Here's why...

There is a natural progression to WSOs. The first page or two is usually taken up by comments from reviewers, early adopters, and questions from prospective customers. Assuming you set it up in a way that restricted rating access to paying customers (one of the technical challenges, given that we don't handle the transactions), those early customers would be the ones who set the first rating. And they tend to be the ones most likely to give enthusiastic ratings.

So, it often looks better at the start than the majority of people will end up judging it to be. But that is when the less experienced people are most likely to buy: When it has a high rating.

That rating would serve as a shortcut for many customers. They'd skip reading the actual reviews which could provide valuable context, and which evolve as people actually use the product and experience the related customer service.

It would also seem likely to create an unbalanced trend toward negative text reviews. People who really liked it might just give it 4 or 5 stars and say nothing. People with problems would be more likely to use the star system and to post negative comments. That's not certain, but it's how I would expect it to trend.

That gives rise to another problem: If there's any disparity between an anonymous rating and the text-based comments, you may be certain that folks who don't think any deeper than "Anyone who thinks differently than me must have an agenda" would scream that we were "fixing" the ratings.

Apparent, but logically sensible, discrepancies like I described above would give a lot of people reason to believe those mistaken claims.

Despite mountains of easily available evidence to the contrary, people still believe that we delete negative reviews of products. How much easier will it be to believe that we were rigging a rating system that could show two different (and accurately represented) attitudes at the same time?

Could this sort of system be easily gamed? Also yes.

As it stands now, people can post thoughtful and contextually meaningful reviews. Those are far more valuable than "1-star, 2-stars, 3-stars, 4."

It takes more work to read and consider the reviews. That is the only thing a star-based review system would obviate. And it's the worst possible outcome of such a change.

It may look to you like we're just dismissing your suggestions out of hand, but you need to realize that we've seen these same suggestions hundreds of times. We've thought about them in depth, and looked at aspects of them most people never have need to consider.

Could we be wrong? Sure. That's always possible. But the small potential upside isn't worth the near-certain, and very large, downside.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Could this sort of system be easily gamed? Also yes.

As it stands now, people can post thoughtful and contextually meaningful reviews. Those are far more valuable than "1-star, 2-stars, 3-stars, 4."

Paul

Throwing this in the pot, what if ratings were weighted and not in simple 1-star, 2-star mode.

So for example, somebody with 10,000 thanks applied a rating, this would have significantly higher effect on the overall WSO' rating than 10 ratings from accounts with 1 post each and 2 thanks. So perhaps they had an "approval rating" out of 100 and thumbs up from trusted WF members had a serious impact compared to those non trusted members.

Would need additional thought but as a baseline concept it would help.

You're reducing the gaming element of the equation fairly significantly.

Thanks
2 replies

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

So for example, somebody with 10,000 thanks applied a rating, this would have significantly higher effect on the overall WSO' rating than 10 ratings from accounts with 1 post each and 2 thanks. So perhaps they had an "approval rating" out of 100 and thumbs up from trusted WF members had a serious impact compared to those non trusted members.

Ummm.... No.

Why should my opinion of a product on SEO, about which I know very little, rate more highly than one from someone with 42 posts and 3 thank yous and 5 years experience with the subject?

It shouldn't.

Conflating post count with expertise is a bad thing, under any circumstances.

Not to mention that the people with high post or thank you counts would get bombarded with review offers...

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Ummm.... No.

Why should my opinion of a product on SEO, about which I know very little, rate more highly than one from someone with 42 posts and 3 thank yous and 5 years experience with the subject?

It shouldn't.

Paul

It's not the singular opinion of one man Paul, that's the benefit.

It's the agglomerated opinion of numerous trusted respected long term , high thanked members.

Right now we could say why does any text review from anybody rate more highly, it doesn't but we do already look at the user, check their status, thanks and posts. Do folks really count the review of a guy with 3 posts, not much if they have any sense.

It's only essentially adding another barrier of protection in the same mould.

Lets face it, there's no doubt existing reviews aren't exactly based on masters of the topic and while I'm not a fan of ratings full stop, it's superior to having them based on a 1 day old member with no trust or credence having the same value vote as somebody who's clearly proved to be a trusted member of the forum.

It would be to me at least, and it's far harder to game.

Not to mention that the people with high post or thank you counts would get bombarded with review offers...

Probably true, although that goes on now with the text reviews, would there be much difference really.

I'm surprised that people are allowed to post adverts for people to "review" their products.

To my mind that entirely pre determines the review they people who get the product for free give.

Thanks
1 reply

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BIG Mike

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

It's the agglomerated opinion of numerous trusted respected long term , high thanked members.

Who's to say which members are trusted and respected? Unless the person reading the review can do so in the context of understanding the thinking of the reviewer, it's still useless.

Simple example based on Paul saying he knew very little about SEO - let's compare his hypothetical review on an SEO type of WSO with mine (I've got considerable SEO expertise).

Let's say that both Paul and myself give objective, fair reviews - mine is a bit more negative perhaps, because I know more about the technical side of SEO and I include a couple of cautionary comments about the method proposed and the potential negative impact.

Paul's been a member longer than me and been thanked over 12K times. I've been thanked just shy of 5K times. By default, does Paul's more favorable review carry more weight? Of course it would...

The problem is always context - Paul probably reviews and comments on the quality of the product itself and the potential ideas behind it, while I'm commenting on the efficacy and long-term impact based on direct knowledge and experience.

What's going to happen is that members who just look at longevity and post/thanks count to gauge the reviewer's take on it will be screwed.

If you're going to allow comments, then you can't limit it to a select audience - everyone who bought should and does get a vote as things stand now. If you try to skew that aspect of it, then you may as well disable commenting altogether.

Whoever mentioned hiring a WSO reviewer - the biggest problem with the WF hiring one is that they are then endorsing the products and that opens up another huge can of worms.

[ 1 ] Thanks
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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Simple example based on Paul saying he knew very little about SEO - let's compare his hypothetical review on an SEO type of WSO with mine (I've got considerable SEO expertise).

Hi Mike, as I said, there's plenty of examples where specific indepth knowledge on a topic isn't relevant , and we already have the exact same issue in text reviews.

Also I think it would be fair to say , folks with 5000 thanks are more trusted than those with zero, nothings perfect, but it's a reasonable statement to make all things being equal.

Thanks
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Hi Mike, as I said, there's plenty of examples where specific indepth knowledge on a topic isn't relevant , and we already have the exact same issue in text reviews.

Also I think it would be fair to say , folks with 5000 thanks are more trusted than those with zero, nothings perfect, but it's a reasonable statement to make all things being equal.

Actually, the number of thanks a person has is mostly meaningless. It could mean that the person tells the best jokes (ask Joe Robinson

). The number of thanks also means that

Some people agree with your opinion (whether it's wrong or right)
You genuinely helped some people out
You're a hot looking chick

None of the above implies that you're an expert in anything, nor should it be used that way.

Thanks
1 reply

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Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

None of the above implies that you're an expert in anything, nor should it be used that way.

It doesn't no, nor was expertise in the field the driver of using the thanks metric but your point has merit either way.
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- Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Almost 200 posts in this thread, and it's still mostly rational and friendly.
  
  The Christmas spirit truly is a powerful thing.
  
  Paul
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
  Signature
  
  .
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  bwh1 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Almost 200 posts in this thread, and it's still mostly rational and friendly.
  
  The Christmas spirit truly is a powerful thing.
  
  Paul
  
  LOL, spot on.
  
  Just wanna say thank's for your in depth response to the issues (reviewers and rating). You guy's for sure have thought about that once or twice in the past ;-) and I'm far from thinking that you neglect my suggestions.
  
  I'm notorious naive and believe always in the good part of people but your explanations makes me rethink about how other sites rely on such systems to proof quality.
  
  In the past, WSO's usually have been discounted offers from already published products at CB etc. so you could even run a Google search prior to buy it to see some reviews about it.
  
  Today the WSO is the leading place for pre-launches and also "WSO Only" launches, where dime sales make you run to get a low price of a "maybe" great product before the price doubles.
  
  Environment has changed quiet a lot. I already changed my way of making my purchase decisions a bit and don't care anymore about dime sales, wanna see first some solid feedback from people I trust.
  
  I really enjoyed this thread so far, very interesting feedback from a lot of professional marketers.
  
  G.
  
  Thanks
  
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Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Ummm.... No.

Conflating post count with expertise is a bad thing, under any circumstances.

Paul

Note post count is only one factor and should be considered the least important , purely to seperate users with 1 post who registered suspiciously the day the WSO came out versus people who have been around . Thanks votes would be superior metric clearly.

Amazon et all use a system in a similar vein in the sense that reviewers are given a rating which helps consumers know if their rating is likely to be of value.

As I say, I don't think ratings full stop are the way forward but as there was discussion on it, this method of weighting a rating based on a users thanks count and not at least letting 1 post wonders have the same power to ruin a WSO rating or improve it would make more sense .
- Thanks
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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi Midas3 Consulting,

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Throwing this in the pot, what if ratings were weighted and not in simple 1-star, 2-star mode.

So for example, somebody with 10,000 thanks applied a rating, this would have significantly higher effect on the overall WSO' rating than 10 ratings from accounts with 1 post each and 2 thanks. So perhaps they had an "approval rating" out of 100 and thumbs up from trusted WF members had a serious impact compared to those non trusted members.

Would need additional thought but as a baseline concept it would help.

You're reducing the gaming element of the equation fairly significantly.

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

A rating system which combined various member metrics which consolidated their trust factor could be beneficial and perhaps more so even in the Services section etc as opposed to purely WSO.

We could apply/test this theory in real time on this page of the thread -

Abbreviated snapshot

'It's a bad idea'

Paul Myers P=14500 T=12405
BIG Mike P=10370 T=4980
sbucciarel P=13798 T=6120
ExRat P=9069 T=3503
tryinhere P=2397 T=604

'It's a good idea'

Midas3 Consulting P=2146 T=505

Originally Posted by tryinhere

There are already to many fake fiver reviews here and you would only open up another fiverr gig, for warrior review stars, like rats they are.

Hey! I resemble that remark.

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Roger Davis

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Midas3 Consulting,

We could apply/test this theory in real time on this page of the thread -

Abbreviated snapshot

'It's a bad idea'

Paul Myers P=14500 T=12405
BIG Mike P=10370 T=4980
sbucciarel P=13798 T=6120
ExRat P=9069 T=3503
tryinhere P=2397 T=604

'It's a good idea'

Midas3 Consulting P=2146 T=505

lol ... there you have it. Case closed :p

Thanks

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Midas3 Consulting,

We could apply/test this theory in real time on this page of the thread -

Abbreviated snapshot

'It's a bad idea'

Paul Myers P=14500 T=12405
BIG Mike P=10370 T=4980
sbucciarel P=13798 T=6120
ExRat P=9069 T=3503
tryinhere P=2397 T=604

'It's a good idea'

Midas3 Consulting P=2146 T=505

It's entirely out of context in relation to the WSO Section albeit amusing and I suspect rather more consumers than WSO sellers would find it helpful.

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

It's entirely out of context in relation to the WSO Section

That's true. In Roger's example, the numbers involved in the rating actually have some validity.

Paul
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- Midas3 Consulting 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  That's true. In Roger's example, the numbers involved in the rating actually have some validity.
  
  Paul
  
  It's still entirely out of context within the rationale for ratings even if valid in his example .. :-)
  
  I can safely assume allowing users to rate services in any context isn't an idea with legs.
  
  Thanks
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bwh1

OK guy's, you convinced me, reviewing WSO's is impossible so let's forget this.

It's just sad to see a place go in a direction we certainly don't want. But I believe that you agree that a improvement would be a nice thing to have.

So how's about having a sellers rating system (maybe with stars) like a seller rating at Fiverr or similar?
.....

Would that be possible to implement?

G.

Think it through. As someone who has advertised in the Warriors for Hire section numerous times, I have found that there are a bunch of ass monkeys there who instantly give your thread a 1 star rating when you launch a product that competes with theirs.

The problem was pervasive enough that it appears that Allen removed the rating feature from Warriors for Hire. All those systems can be gamed and will be gamed.

Your comparison to retail stores and WF ... well, Walmart sells China junk mostly. Most people know it and expect it and buy it anyway because it's cheap. They don't picket Walmart and whine to the media when their little thingy breaks. They just go back and buy more junk.

You want to blame the WF for lack of quality control and the sellers for marketing to a group of people who have a clear interest in what they're peddling, but not the buyer?

How about people stop being a sucker for a hyped up sales page and start using their heads before making purchasing decisions? Geeesh ... from the time that I was a little kid, my mothers' favorite saying (one of them) was if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

If people want to believe something bad enough, (and the dreamers do want to believe that you can make money fast with no skills in your pajamas), you won't convince them that it just isn't so. You see it here all the time. People start threads like "how can I make a lot of money real fast"? A lot of Warriors chime in .... you can't and go on to explain that if you want long term success, you need a plan and to put a lot of work in to make it happen. Well, they ignore that and shuffle off back to the WSO forum looking for that magic bullet that they know exists. They get burned not just one time, not two times, not even three times ... but over and over again and they still buy.

People who keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results defy all logic. Obviously, in a perfect world, sellers would just concentrate on producing really dynamite products and not resort to trickery, false claims, fake testimonials, fake screenshots, etc. ....but guess what? That's not going to happen. Period.

Given that there will always be a marketplace with some percentage of dodgy sellers, what is the solution?

Get a clue for one. If you get burned, figure out why that happened. If you have unrealistic expectations, I guarantee you that someone will tell you that they can meet or exceed them.

Duh ... If something hurts, stop doing it. Should be obvious, right? Why do you keep looking for magic bullets when you get burned over and over again?

Use your head. Can these people really deliver what they say in the sales letter? Common sense should tell you that a huge income claims or incredible results for a $7 "method" are highly unlikely. If it sounds too good to be true, it most likely isn't true.

Lastly ... if you the buyer, the dreamer did not buy, the market would disappear. It's the Law of Supply and Demand. Want the supply to dry up, eliminate the demand. Know that in order to build a sustainable, long term income online, you will have to work hard, learn new skills and make your own plan. The information is here and initially, it's free. There's more than enough help and information in this forum to get you started in the right direction.

Once you have that plan and are implementing it, you'll probably find that there are some excellent products being sold here that can enhance your business and make your job easier or give you the knowledge that you need to take it to the next level. That's what you should be looking for and buying.

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bwh1

OKSo how's about having a sellers rating system (maybe with stars) like a seller rating at Fiverr or similar?.

There are already to many fake fiver reviews here and you would only open up another fiverr gig, for warrior review stars, like rats they are.

Thanks
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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

There are already to many fake fiver reviews here and you would only open up another fiverr gig, for warrior review stars, like rats they are.

Again, there are ways to make that impossible if the system uses weighted votes based on member duration, thanks etc.

Nothings perfect but it wouldn't have to be the wild wild west if the system used a more stringent method of rating.

It's probably all a giant pain in the ass, but there are better ways than one person , one vote which would absolutely be a total disaster and abused.

Thanks
1 reply

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Again, there are ways to make that impossible if the system uses weighted votes based on member duration, thanks etc.

Nothings perfect but it wouldn't have to be the wild wild west if the system used a more stringent method of rating.

It's probably all a giant pain in the ass, but there are better ways than one person , one vote which would absolutely be a total disaster and abused.

From memory many moons ago here on the same argument, i threw in as you suggested where the thanks were used as weights / can not remember exactly now but the higher you were thanked from ( a person with more time and thanks the more weight it had, that in turn made your weight as a member of the community.

So being in a long or even short term with many thanks from people with little miles gave you a weak vote but somebody with time and many thanks from other long term experienced members gave a higher strength type thing, my head is off in another app just now but it could be done as you suggest.

Thanks
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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Do folks really count the review of a guy with 3 posts, not much if they have any sense.

That depends on the context.

If the system were restricted to people who had paid, why should the opinion of a person with one post count for any less than the opinion of someone with many posts? They both paid for the product, and their expertise has nothing to do with how long they've been members.

If you believe you can sell the idea to Allen, you're welcome to try. For myself, I will continue to resist anything that promotes the notion that post count or thank yous have any bearing on objective issues of knowledge or experience.

Those numbers may reasonably be viewed as indicators of involvement or investment in this community, but they have no relationship with one's skill in a given professional field.

It would be hard to overstate the strength of my feelings on this point.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That depends on the context.

If the system were restricted to people who had paid, why should the opinion of a person with one post count for any less than the opinion of someone with many posts? They both paid for the product, and their expertise has nothing to do with how long they've been members.

If you believe you can sell the idea to Allen, you're welcome to try. For myself, I will continue to resist anything that promotes the notion that post count or thank yous have any bearing on objective issues of knowledge or experience.

Those numbers may reasonably be viewed as indicators of involvement or investment in this community, but they have no relationship with one's skill in a given professional field.

It would be hard to overstate the strength of my feelings on this point.

Paul

There's no disconnect between my position and yours in regards the users knowledge or lack of knowledge in a WSO's particular field. I think it's clearly a given and beyond refute that one person with 10 thanks may know more than one person with 1000 thanks on that particular subject.

I don't think it's the overriding important factor primarily or at least as you say, depends on the context.

Lets take say SEO..

If they deliver the articles, links , etc they say they will and the service is timely and the communication solid and the monthly report accurate and so forth, then a rating people could trust from others to verify their service would be useful.

You do not need to be an expert in the field in many categories, such as design, graphics, coding services , article writing, etc to deliver a verdict on whether the provider delivered a great logo or great article on time etc. It's essentially a level playing field in many scenarios.

The issue of somebodies expertise wouldn't be as big a focus , if at all.

It would be far more useful if an at a glance rating was available that WF consumers could trust rather than a rating system which can easily be tilted in a negative or positive fashion by a host of 1 post wonders.

There's obviously scenarios , especially in the "get rich quick" category where for the reasons you specified it becomes far less useful.

A rating system which combined various member metrics which consolidated their trust factor could be beneficial and perhaps more so even in the Services section etc as opposed to purely WSO.

Ultimately you guys, mods etc, see the down and dirty behind the scenes here, I don't have the benefit of historical experience and hidden pros and cons which can severely change perspective on concepts like this. Any decision would needed to be fully supported and importantly wanted by guys who make the whole place tick or it only serves to annoy those people which is counter productive.

I'm not even convinced ratings are ideal in any format but if they were to be implemented I would far prefer they not be so open to abuse.

Posts here are purely ideas to improve the consumer experience, it's in good faith.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

There's obviously scenarios , especially in the "get rich quick" category where for the reasons you specified it becomes far less useful.

And those are the ones where it's seen as being needed. They're also the ones where actual experience in the topic matters, rather than post count.

Like I said... You can try and sell Allen on the notion, but I will resist it as long as I am a member here.

I understand the appeal of the idea. I really do. But I've seen too many instances of the underlying concept having serious negative impact on the good of the members.

It would be a Really, Really Bad Precedent. Monumentally bad.

There are slopes you don't want to even get near, much less start down. This is one of them.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

And those are the ones where it's seen as being needed. They're also the ones where actual experience in the topic matters, rather than post count.

Like I said... You can try and sell Allen on the notion, but I will resist it as long as I am a member here.

I understand the appeal of the idea. I really do. But I've seen too many instances of the underlying concept having serious negative impact on the good of the members.

It would be a Really, Really Bad Precedent. Monumentally bad.

There are slopes you don't want to even get near, much less start down. This is one of them.

Paul

I think I mentioned post count is by far the last relevent metric, it's only there to seperate 1 post wonders which could be fake.

I've no intention of banging my head on the proverbial, the discussion of ratings came up and this was a version of ratings which was superior to a simple star system, which is to easy to abuse.

But I've seen too many instances of the underlying concept having serious negative impact on the good of the members.

As I said, no doubt, folks who have to steer the ship, get a far better picture overall picture than those sat on the ship.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

From memory many moons ago here on the same argument, i threw in as you suggested where the thanks were used as weights / can not remember exactly now but the higher you were thanked from ( a person with more time and thanks the more weight it had, that in turn made your weight as a member of the community.

So being in a long or even short term with many thanks from people with little miles gave you a weak vote but somebody with time and many thanks from other long term experienced members gave a higher strength type thing, my head is off in another app just now but it could be done as you suggest.

Apologies , no plaguerism in effect, similar thought process clearly.

I think it has merit but it fits into the category exRat mentioned in post, really an element which won't unfortunately cure the root cause of the issue.

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Apologies , no plaguerism in effect, similar thought process clearly.

I think it has merit but it fits into the category exRat mentioned in post, really an element which won't unfortunately cure the root cause of the issue.

No apologies needed from memory I chimed in on somebody else back then as well, the idea has merit for sure, its good that it has re surfaced but I very much doubt it will grow any more legs than the last time it danced on the floor of popularity.

And it will be down the distant road of past memories that another thread will re open the same war wounds that has plagued warriors who fought past battles to the same avail all over again.

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Midas3 Consulting

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Think it through. As someone who has advertised in the Warriors for Hire section numerous times, I have found that there are a bunch of ass monkeys there who instantly give your thread a 1 star rating when you launch a product that competes with theirs.
.

Agreed, but there are ways around that kind of BS rating going on.

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WillR

11 years ago

Just to re-enforce the mentality of a lot of the people selling products in the WSO forum, I would like to quote this question someone just asked in the main discussion forum:

Originally Posted by albert12

I want to make a WSO but I don't know where to start. Is there some program for sale that can help me make them?

The sad thing is this is probably the mentality of the average WSO vendor nowadays. They don't care about creating quality products. A lot of them only care about making a quick buck with as little a work as possible. The blind leading the blind. It's up to us, together, to stomp these people out of our community.

Now granted this person might actually be looking for software to create a salespage or the like, but I guarantee you this mentality exists amongst some of the sellers. They would love a software program that spat out cheap and worthless WSO products they could sell.

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George Wright

11 years ago

Will,

They would love a software program that spat out cheap and worthless WSO products they could sell.

Thanks man, I'll get right on it.

George Wright

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WillR 11 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

Will,

Thanks man, I'll get right on it.

George Wright

Haha

Wanna go 50/50? I need those people on my list...
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samah

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting

Look, it's a good money spinner for a few, I get that, but the unreasonable flack SOME WSO sellers take is out of control.

I was a bit bored in between stuffing turkey down my gullet and thought I would pop into the WSO section for the first time in absolutely years.

I grabbed a handful , see what was doing the rounds nowadays, lots of rehashed stuff from years gone by but a few decent little gigs as well.

What struck me was what a dire lot SOME WSO buyers on this forum are.

Seeing people moaning that a WSO seller hadn't refunded them on Boxing day, jeez, can these people not have any break with their families?

Will your entire life dissolve without your $7 back!!!!

I read the WSO, it was basic but contained actionable information, it was white hat, it would require some work but it's based on solid foundations with a little twist the owner had developed for research using a combination of tools.

It was well put together, short but sweet to the point, no harm in that.

Yet he has to refund somebody on the basis that

"it's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately"

Man, not only that , some have nagged him twice, I think one of the moans even got posted on Christmas day.

Folks moan about WSO's and often rightly so but SOME WSO customers are a joke, moaning about having to wait 24 hours over a holiday for $7 or requesting refunds because they "won't use it", why is THAT the WSO sellers fault?

People need to get a grip, it's quite clear in the description what the WSO is about , if you don't want to do video marketing why buy a WSO on video marketing. Far to many serial refunders about.

Jeez, glad I don't sell WSO's must be infuriating at times.

You are absolutely right!

and those people before they buy the wso , they will keep asking hundreds of questions to the seller and then; they decide to buy it after 10 minutes or less they will ask for refund!

That's why I have decided not refund my wsos as long as I am answering all the questions said by buyers before they buy it!

Thanks for the thread, it was really great topic to be discussed

Kindest Regards
Samah

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raffman999

11 years ago

Great thread by the way. The conduct of some buyers I've seen recently has been absolutely scandalous; just simple things like not using a support email that has been clearly given in the FAQ or sales letter and posting in the thread really isn't acceptable.

I like the look of some "take action" guarantees I've seen; so it might be a 30 day guarantee, but you can only request a refund after 14 days to prove you've taken action.

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CrisisCore08

11 years ago

I always try to ask the sellers as many question that I can about the product just to avoid asking a refund,although some of them are ignoring messeges or saying somthing general like "it might work for you,see for yourself".
I hate asking for refunds,it takes time.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

What about just setting a "minimum price" level for all WSO's ?
no more $7 products ! ? Make the minimum you can sell a WSO $25
That would get rid of any junk, and good offers would stand strong.

I've paid over $25 for GOOD ebooks and been more than happy with
my purchase. Perhaps this would be the best and most simple solution.
What do you think warriors ?

cheers

Jeff

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Jeff,

What about just setting a "minimum price" level for all WSO's ?

There is no way I can see Allen going for any rule that tries to exert that kind of control over the marketing decisions of a seller.

Barring something I can't even imagine at the moment, that is a complete non-starter.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

What about just setting a "minimum price" level for all WSO's ?
no more $7 products ! ? Make the minimum you can sell a WSO $25
That would get rid of any junk, and good offers would stand strong.

I've paid over $25 for GOOD ebooks and been more than happy with
my purchase. Perhaps this would be the best and most simple solution.
What do you think warriors ?

cheers

Jeff

I remember when people said increasing the price to $40 would eliminate the junk. Obviously, it didn't. The price isn't the problem and an advertising platform shouldn't really be telling people how to price their products, IMO.

I've bought junk that costs way more than $7 and I've bought gems for $7 that makes me wonder why in the world they are selling that so cheap.

There's already an excellent feedback system in place via the comments. Do people read every last one of them? I do, but I rather suspect that many just react to their emotional triggers and hit that buy button right away because by gosh ... it says they're going to get rich in 48 hours and they want to get started on that. Due diligence be damned.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

What about having a minimum post count before you're allowed to launch a WSO ?
we have a minimum post count for sending PMs, why not make people get to
know the forum a bit, meet some people, and prove they care about communicating
with others before they're allowed to launch a WSO ?

That would not limit any one to a rating system or change in price structure.
It would just mean that people have to prove that they are a real person that
wants to communicate and learn about how this forum works a bit before they
can slap up any old crap offer.
Perhaps 100 posts ?

what do you think warriors ?

Jeff

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

What about having a minimum post count before you're allowed to launch a WSO ?
we have a minimum post count for sending PMs, why not make people get to
know the forum a bit, meet some people, and prove they care about communicating
with others before they're allowed to launch a WSO ?

That would not limit any one to a rating system or change in price structure.
It would just mean that people have to prove that they are a real person that
wants to communicate and learn about how this forum works a bit before they
can slap up any old crap offer.
Perhaps 100 posts ?

what do you think warriors ?

Jeff

That's actually the only idea I've seen floated about that I could support, although as in most systems, it would be gamed by the poster posting a bunch of crap real fast to meet the criteria.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's actually the only idea I've seen floated about that I could support, although as in most systems, it would be gamed by the poster posting a bunch of crap real fast to meet the criteria.

But that could be controlled by the mods a bit.
Also anyone with 0 posts, brand new account, and
0 thanks should have a "minimum character"
restriction on their posts. This way they have to type more.
If they type a bunch of crap they will get warned, then banned
for repeat infractions.

what you think ?

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Jeff,

I hereby declare today "Think like a creep" day.

Suppose you were the kind of schmuck who was trying to beat the system and get the requisite number of posts to get your latest scam approved. Further suppose there was a minimum character limit per post in your way. What would you do to get around that restriction?

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

But that could be controlled by the mods a bit.
Also anyone with 0 posts, brand new account, and
0 thanks should have a "minimum character"
restriction on their posts. This way they have to type more.
If they type a bunch of crap they will get warned, then banned
for repeat infractions.

what you think ?

Personally, I report people who have a whole bunch of one liners, particularly when the one liners are in threads that coincide with the topic of their signature (obvious sig exposure spam stuff), but it is time consuming and multiply that by hundreds or thousands of people attempting to meet the 100 mark with meaningless posts, and it gets real time consuming.

I do like the idea. I'm in favor of it, but would it solve the problem that people are complaining about? Not really. There are thousands of members who already meet the 100 post count that will continue to market this type of "get rich fast" stuff and other dodgy products because there is a market for them.

And never discount the power of that ... a market for them. The newcomer with the intention of making a fast buck with that type of product will just play by any rule imposed and get that 100 post count and launch their offer.

EDITED TO ADD: Maybe it would work better if you had to have 100 posts and be a member for 3 months.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Personally, I report people who have a whole bunch of one liners, particularly when the one liners are in threads that coincide with the topic of their signature (obvious sig exposure spam stuff), but it is time consuming and multiply that by hundreds or thousands of people attempting to meet the 100 mark with meaningless posts, and it gets real time consuming.

I do like the idea. I'm in favor of it, but would it solve the problem that people are complaining about? Not really. There are thousands of members who already meet the 100 post count that will continue to market this type of "get rich fast" stuff and other dodgy products because there is a market for them.

And never discount the power of that ... a market for them. The newcomer with the intention of making a fast buck with that type of product will just play by any rule imposed and get that 100 post count and launch their offer.

Well, all good ideas start with a seed. It can grow and take shape.
Don't forget if there was a decrease in the brand new people coming
in and slapping up offers the first day they join....
There would also be a decrease in competition.

This would improve the time each bump spends on page one for
the vendors selling WSO's and that of course will improve sales.
This means a vendor doesn't have to push so hard for the sale,
and that would make even the buyers more happy.

We all agreed that we can't restrict the price or the content already right ?
So perhaps thinning things out at the bottom by doing the minimum
post count idea, so there are less " over-night success seekers"
posting WSO's would be a darn good start. I think it would work.

And Paul....
I can't really think of something anyone could do to get around a
minimum character restriction except perhaps try to use some sort
of posting software, and the WF would catch them. Or they could
type a lot of crap, but then they will get reported by others and
booted for repeat infractions.

It does say at the top of the forum "You are a moderator ! "
So if we all do our part we could keep thing clean.
I think everyone does a pretty darn good job of it now,
so I doubt anything would change if we had a minimum character
restriction on new accounts with less then 100 posts.

Perhaps we could try it out and see how things go...
then add to the idea as it pans out.

what do you think ?

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Jeff,

You're not evil enough. They could...

Pad their replies.
Buy aged accounts.
Pay someone to post, using their VPN.
Build a collection of accounts.

Want to try and think up more? (Those aren't the only established techniques.) They can fake their way around most restrictions pretty easily if they're willing to make the effort, and the majority of members here would never notice.

I don't see any point in trying things the creeps have already proved they can work around.

Paul

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jeff,

You're not evil enough. They could...

Pad their replies.
Buy aged accounts.
Pay someone to post, using their VPN.
Build a collection of accounts.

Want to try and think up more? (Those aren't the only established techniques.) They can fake their way around most restrictions pretty easily if they're willing to make the effort, and the majority of members here would never notice.

I don't see any point in trying things the creeps have already proved they can work around.

Paul

I agree Paul, but all those ideas are pretty extreme. Creeps will always be there.
However, I would say 97% of people joining the WF in hopes to get in on
the gold rush, and slapping up some PLR offer they have....
are not creeps. They are normal people who hate their day job or don't have
one anymore and want to get in on the action they keep hearing so much
about. Those people are never going to do any of those things.
They will say " oh, ok... I guess this is how it's done " and fall in line.
If they don't want to they don't get to launch a WSO.

Even if you never stop the creeps, you'll still be thinning out the crowd of
people trying to come into the WF and make it big with a WSO over-night.
if we could cut out even 40% of those 97% of "people over-all" we would
be in really good shape. It would be worth a try perhaps.

Adding a 3 month membership minimum wouldn't be a bad idea either.
The two combined would really clean things up. Enough to make a difference
anyways. That's a good start, and would make the vendors, the buyers,
and the Warrior Forum happy. I think it would be worth a shot.
If it didn't work out the WF could always go back to the old way no problem.

what do you think ?

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

I agree Paul, but all those ideas are pretty extreme. Creeps will always be there.
However, I would say 97% of people joining the WF in hopes to get in on
the gold rush, and slapping up some PLR offer they have....
are not creeps. They are normal people who hate their day job or don't have
one anymore and want to get in on the action they keep hearing so much
about. Those people are never going to do any of those things.
They will say " oh, ok... I guess this is how it's done " and fall in line.
If they don't want to they don't get to launch a WSO.

Even if you never stop the creeps, you'll still be thinning out the crowd of
people trying to come into the WF and make it big with a WSO over-night.
if we could cut out even 40% of those 97% of "people over-all" we would
be in really good shape. It would be worth a try perhaps.

Adding a 3 month membership minimum wouldn't be a bad idea either.
The two combined would really clean things up. Enough to make a difference
anyways. That's a good start, and would make the vendors, the buyers,
and the Warrior Forum happy. I think it would be worth a shot.
If it didn't work out the WF could always go back to the old way no problem.

what do you think ?

As Paul said Jeff ... you aren't evil enough. lol.

I wouldn't call the majority of the members here that have lasted without a ban, evil, but there are hoards that are dying to jump on the make money fast bandwagon who have zero scruples when it comes to making money, and a great deal of determination to do so... so much determination that a mere 100 post count will not deter them.

As I edited my post to include the 3 month minimum membership, that may help some but it will not in any way stop the problem of over-hyped offers with false income claims and fake testimonials that people complain about. It'll slow some new people's plans down a bit but won't affect the thousands who routinely make money here offering those products at all.

Attempting to solve a problem by creating a new problem (as in 100 post count spam) is not the solution, even though I do like the idea of it.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

As Paul said Jeff ... you aren't evil enough. lol.

I wouldn't call the majority of the members here that have lasted without a ban, evil, but there are hoards that are dying to jump on the make money fast bandwagon who have zero scruples when it comes to making money, and a great deal of determination to do so... so much determination that a mere 100 post count will not deter them.

This is true, but fact is these evil people can come in and post a WSO
right now with no post count, and no minimum membership time.
That means we're making it that much easier for them by doing nothing.
You're absolutely right. People can and will try to get around it,
but a huge number won't. That means a decrease in the over-night
WSO success seekers. Sure some people are scammers,
but right now those people have no restrictions. If we made
it harder, MANY of them wouldn't bother taking it to the next level,
or even know how to do these evil things. A lot of the people are
not that evil, they just want to make some quick money. Who doesn't ?

Right now there is nothing to stop a scammer from posting a WSO
with a 0 post count and a brand new account. Why not give them
some speed bumps at least that works 100% for the honest folks ?

I think it would be worth trying to see what kind of effect it has.

cheers

Jeff

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

This is true, but fact is these evil people can come in and post a WSO
right now with no post count, and no minimum membership time.
That means we're making it that much easier for them by doing nothing.
You're absolutely right. People can and will try to get around it,
but a huge number won't. That means a decrease in the over-night
WSO success seekers. Sure some people are scammers,
but right now those people have no restrictions. If we made
it harder, MANY of them wouldn't bother taking it to the next level,
or even know how to do these evil things. A lot of the people are
not that evil, they just want to make some quick money. Who doesn't?

While you may slow down the newcomers, the fact is that there are thousands of members here, some long established and quite popular, who consistently make tons of money from these kinds of offers. Obviously, these new rules would not affect them at all.

So ... eliminate the 100 post count rule (to eliminate all the resulting spam) and just make it 3 month membership and you may deter those who are very impatient. Not all, but some.

It seems like it would be a rule that would have the least negative impact on the forum, but of course would not even begin to slow down the dodgy offers of long established members here.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

While you may slow down the newcomers, the fact is that there are thousands of members here, some long established and quite popular, who consistently make tons of money from these kinds of offers. Obviously, these new rules would not affect them at all.

So ... eliminate the 100 post count rule (to eliminate all the resulting spam) and just make it 3 month membership and you may deter those who are very impatient. Not all, but some.

It seems like it would be a rule that would have the least negative impact on the forum, but of course would not even begin to slow down the dodgy offers of long established members here.

This is all true, but a decrease in the newcomers would allow vendors to
get more time on page one for their offer. That's good.
It would slow down ( not stop ) the crappy offers. That's good.
It would not require much to add the 100 post count and 3 month membership restriction. That's good.
It would add a speed bump in the road for scammers. That's good.

I know people that have had an account for a lot more then 3 months
and still don't have 100 posts. Even mine is low, and that's because
I do most of my posts on my WSO's and I'm so busy with that I never
get over here to the discussion forum. Post counts in WSO section don't
count, and that would tie in perfectly with the 100 post count restriction,
because it would force people to come out here and get involved.
If they're to lazy to do that, they will quite long before launching a WSO

Right now we allow people to come in and treat the WSO section like an ATM machine first day.
Why not force them to get 100 posts first ? I don't think there would be spam.
We have mods for that, we are all mods and don't forget we already do this for PMs.
Doing the same thing for a new reason would not affect anything.

It all sounds better than doing nothing. Why not try it out ?
What do you think ?

Jeff

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tryinhere

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

but a huge number won't. That means a decrease in the over-night
WSO success seekers. Sure some people are scammers,

It won't stop didley squat, it only stops legit people posting earlier, scammers would just move past that.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

It won't stop didley squat, it only stops legit people posting earlier, scammers would just move past that.

Yes, totally true. But they will always get through, and they can
walk right in now with nothing to slow them down.
At least slowing down the majority we could enjoy the benefits
of having more time on page one for bumps, and "some" less
competition with crappy offers.

Lets face it, we can do nothing, or we can take a good idea and test it out.

We already restrict PM's with a post count minimum. This would be
no different. I think it would make a least a dent in the problem.

cheers

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Paul Damar 11 years ago

My friend sells WSO's here in the forum and he's mentioned a few time a bit how some WF are a becoming a bit spoiled.

They ask him tons of questions, 5-10 in one email. They get rude when he does not refund the moment they send in the request that very minute.

I guess you have to take the good with the ugly.

He has also said how nice, and respectful most warriors are here.
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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

Yes, totally true. But they will always get through, and they can
walk right in now with nothing to slow them down.
At least slowing down the majority we could enjoy the benefits
of having more time on page one for bumps, and "some" less
competition with crappy offers.

Lets face it, we can do nothing, or we can take a good idea and test it out.

We already restrict PM's with a post count minimum. This would be
no different. I think it would make a least a dent in the problem.

cheers

One thing you have to realize is that the WF is a small part of Internet Marketing and some of the "new people" that come here are very experienced marketers with high quality products. Not all of them are dodgy sellers with get rich quick schemes.

I think part of your complaint seems to be the sheer number of WSOs being launched and your offer not staying on the front page long enough. That's not a good enough reason to create rules that reduce the number of listings.

After all this discussion, I'm still voting for no change. I believe that people should take personal responsibility for their decisions and use common sense when purchasing and I doubt that will happen either.

I believe that the review system already in place works great if people use it. There's also the report button to report outright fraud.

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Vendor-Lock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

One thing you have to realize is that the WF is a small part of Internet Marketing and some of the "new people" that come here are very experienced marketers with high quality products. Not all of them are dodgy sellers with get rich quick schemes.

I think part of your complaint seems to be the sheer number of WSOs being launched and your offer not staying on the front page long enough. That's not a good enough reason to create rules that reduce the number of listings.

After all this discussion, I'm still voting for no change. I believe that people should take personal responsibility for their decisions and use common sense when purchasing and I doubt that will happen either.

I believe that the review system already in place works great if people use it. There's also the report button to report outright fraud.

I'm not complaining. I'm just stating the facts. Also I mentioned
those would be some benefits to the idea, not the main focus.

If someone is new, they should have to earn the right to run a WSO
despite their marketing skills or product quality. If they're new,
they should have to earn their spot. Just like people have to
get 50 posts before they can PM. This would be no different.

Would it solve everything ? No. But doing nothing isn't working,
and it works for PMs so I think it has proven to work and it would
be at least a dent in the problem.

Of course we can sit here and all spout our opinions forever,
or we could try something new and see if it at least helps.

cheers

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

If someone is new, they should have to earn the right to run a WSO despite their marketing skills or product quality. If they're new, they should have to earn their spot. Just like people have to
get 50 posts before they can PM. This would be no different.

Don't agree with this take on it at all. $40 plus $37 War Room membership fee earns your spot in the WSO forum. It's an advertising platform and many use it as such without dropping by to kiss our a$$es in the main discussion forum. That's up to them. Some do quite well that way and some not so much.

The only reason I would favor a wait period is for all the fly by night courses out there teaching people how to invade the WF with rehashed PLR to run as WSOs, and all that it would do is slow that down ... maybe. The WSO section would not noticeably change one iota.

I just opened up 30 WSOs on the front page starting with the first. Out of all of them, only one was launched by someone with 2 months membership time. All of the rest were launched by people who would meet the 3 month rule and most of them are from members dating back from 2004.

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NeXtReview

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

I'm not complaining. I'm just stating the facts. Also I mentioned
those would be some benefits to the idea, not the main focus.

If someone is new, they should have to earn the right to run a WSO
despite their marketing skills or product quality. If they're new,
they should have to earn their spot. Just like people have to
get 50 posts before they can PM. This would be no different.

Would it solve everything ? No. But doing nothing isn't working,
and it works for PMs so I think it has proven to work and it would
be at least a dent in the problem.

Of course we can sit here and all spout our opinions forever,
or we could try something new and see if it at least helps.

cheers

Jeff I feel compelled to call you out here on this thread.
It seems your thoughts here do not mirror your own actions.

Your assumptions say that just because someone has only x amount
of posts they are not good members yet. What about the ones who
have been here for years reading and buying wso's ?

The other part of my post here is to ask you why you are using other
members WSO threads to post and then PM us with your "Teaching Offer"?

Today you have been posting here and at the same time PM'ing me with what I
feel is a very tactless sales PM regarding my WSO.

Hopefully your actions and your message will one day be in sync.

Believe me I struggled whether to post here and also report your post on
my WSO. After some thought it was clear that not doing anything only
made me a victim of your slanted actions.

Please refrain from using your present method of chasing after "customers to teach"

I wish you nothing but success in YOUR ventures just couldn't leave this unsaid.

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BIG Mike Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Vendor-Lock

I think it would make a least a dent in the problem.

I've seen the WSO forum change over the years from a place where you could post your offer for free giving a nice discount to WF members to becoming the very active marketplace it is today. No matter how much the rules change, there's always been one constant element - buyers don't always think rationally or leave appropriate feedback.

The only way there's ever genuinely going to be a real dent in the problem is if the folks buying WSO's start exercising better judgement in what they purchase and learn to vote by collectively making fair and objective comments about their purchases.

Believe it or not, buyers and sellers both already have the tools to control these problems as a group and individually.

Until they do, I don't see where the "Problem" is in the first place.
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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Jeff,

but all those ideas are pretty extreme.

No, they are not. They are every day things here. Literally, every day.

We had a problem in the JV section. There were suddenly a lot of reports of people pulling a specific kind of scam. When I went digging, I figured out that it was one, or maybe two, individual(s) who were flooding the section with the crap. Now we require that posts be pre-approved before being visible in that area of the forum.

There are people out there teaching others how to game our system, specifically. If it were possible, I would cheerfully drop houses on these brilliant cretins in ways that would render them unable to ever use computers again. But it's not.

No amount of tinkering with the review system will change that. And it's not unique to this forum. It's ubiquitous to the Net as a whole. It's the price we pay for privacy.

You assume that most people are as honest as you are, and you're right. But the network is built in such a way that a single person can do damage to millions, if they're willing to push the technology just a tiny bit.

Common sense is the best defense. Sadly, we can't build that into the registration process.

Paul
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