It's true.

The WSO market attracts a lot of ungreatful buyers and we as WSO creators have to take a little of the blame for that. If you keep lowering the price and raising the value expectation then this was always bound to happen. A market that is ungreatful and expect the world for nothing. Gladly though, they are the minority and there are still a LOT of greatful customers out there.

Focus on the good as the bad come and go very quickly.

Those complaining they haven't got a refund over the Christmas break need to get a grip on things as they clearly do not understand how a normal business operates and their expectations are unreasonable. Time those people had a reality check me thinks.

They can cure that problem easily by not offering refunds. Simple.

On My last wso a guy emailed me for a refund in the morning, by early afternoon he posted on the wso about me not responding to him etc.. I wasn't even online til that night.

Anyways, I have many examples and it's like you said.. Some wso customers are a joke.

I have contemplated about the no refund policy but all the books I've read on marketing and direct response marketing tell me to always have a strong refund policy so it stops me from not having one every time...

You get what you pay for, however, it sounds like people want the world without paying for it. I can see offering a refund on software that isn't compatible or doesn't work, such as buying a WordPress plugin for your non-WP site, or buggy software, but providing a refund on an ebook providing money making information is kind of crazy.

"it's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately" - Anyone who says this should not be refunded in my opinion. This sounds like somebody who is searching for ideas. If you're buying WSO's for ideas then that's probably not the most cost effective way to go about things. These people should be buying WSO's because they relate to what they are currently working on and need additional ideas/methods to further their success.

EDIT: WSO sellers have lives too and cannot work 24/7. Maybe sellers should include a disclaimer saying "please allow at least X amount of business days for refunds to be processed".

[DELETED]

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I totally agree with you. I run a lot of WSO's I have over 20 running now.
Not only is there too many serial refunders about, but I saw a HUGE
increase in refunds 2 weeks before Christmas. Not cool !

Customers online often treat you like a faceless nobody that "doesn't matter"
when you run WSO's that's for sure.
I have been on the fence about the "no refunds" policy for a while,
but I agree with the posts above. It's not recommended and usually
hurts your sales.

I am considering doing a "guaranteed install" for my PHP scripts,
so that way I am still offering a good guarantee that proves I care
about my customers and their success using my product....
but will no longer offer cash refunds because of the people that say
"I'm not going to use this" and want their money back and keep my scripts.

I also agree with the comments that the cheap product prices
attract bitchin' and complaining more than a higer price.
I have seen this first hand by selling a product of mine on sale.
The people that got it for next to nothing complained and expected
me to jump through a lot of hoops for them, where the people that
paid full price ( a LOT more ) didn't complain at all or expect anything
"extra" from what I offered in the WSO.

Over-all I like doing WSO's and have success with them,
and the good customers make it worth while. Fortunately
there are more good then bad, however I have seen a steady
increase in refunds. A sign of the times I suppose....
And that's why I'm considering a new refund policy for WSO's.

Bottom line, you're right. People need to stop expecting MORE MORE MORE,
for LESS LESS LESS.
But I also agree with the comments about
" we train the customers to act this way "
I think there is a lot of truth behind that. I'm just not sure what to do about it.

Any suggestions ??

There are buyer that like to make money online but don't want to invest. They buy and they ask refund. Not all people do that, only a few.

- Not all people appreciate knowledge --

It goes both ways. Some WSOs are pretty sorry.

"It's a good product but I won't use it so please refund me immediately"
Wtf.....people expect to be refunded because of that? If you refund a person for any of those reasons listed above, you're better than me. IMO, there shouldn't be an option to refund digital books. But that's just my opinion.

Don't worry. The people who are complaining about how they wasted $7 for an information product are the same people who are complaining about their spouse. Totally unthinkable.

If the WSO doesn't offer a refund, then there is no refund. Period. You (the buyer) has to accept the seller's rules before you commit to the purchase.

Regardless of whether there is a money back guarantee or not, I don't understand how you can ever ask for a refund (unless you didn't receive your product or got something entirely different than what you've paid for).

Don't ask for a refund, unless it's clearly stated in the WSO sales page that there IS a refund.

There were some great WSOs on here, but the problem is that you can't weed out the bad ones. You aren't allowed to complain about them..

This forum does bias the seller. That's why I stopped buying a couple years ago.

If you give bad feedback your post is deleted.

I only posted negative post a couple times in the many years here and they were deleted.

Most other companies give the buyer more protection.

Besides that there's a lot of good info here. I just stay away from sellers unless I know I can trust them.

BTW I only asked for a refund once out of the many that were bad. I was denied.

@Paul

Yeah, I've gotten to know how analytical you are when it comes to deleting comments. You won't ever delete a comment without having evidence of something.

The person making this vague statement may see his own incident as an overall reality. It's just not true.

I almost didn't post this because I don't want to be "that guy," but what the hell...

It's part of doing business in this niche and on this forum. We're all faced daily with demands on our precious time. I think you have to live by that old saw, "pick your battles." I choose not to make refund requests a time sucker.

To each his own, but they are pretty few and far between (assuming you don't use unethical sales tactics, in which case you get what you deserve). Consider it a cost of doing business in this arena and don't lose more than 10 seconds of your time to giving them their money back.

That's my 2 cents in the jar.

If you're going to be in business for yourself, you need to be available whenever a customer wants you available, not on your schedule.

Yes, it's pathetic that people are scum and want to get free products, especially for the price of a McDonalds meal but it's also pathetic that people continuously buy this stuff up... Including a "money back guarantee" on a $5, $7 or even $27 just ensures that your head will explode in a couple of days.

I've seen popular WSOs with "no refund" what so ever stated in their sales pitch.

As far as not responding in a timely manner.. hell... most people I meet on here do that when it's not a Holiday. I have a guy I haven't heard from in 2 months, one that takes days to get into Skype and respond every time we communicate, and so on... When you're in business for yourself, you need to be available when your clients and your customers want you available. If you can't make that promise or sacrifice, go get a 9-5 job with a sympathetic boss.

Also noticed a strange rise in refund requests starting right before Christmas (even one that had made a purchase in July!).

I really don't feel sorry for WSO sellers at all. I have an e-commerce business and returns are just a fact of life. When a person is unhappy with a product, they're often very demanding and unreasonable. That's just the way it is.

Since I've been a member on this forum, I have purchased two or three WSOs. When I bought them, I knew upfront that the great possibility was they were worthless. Unfortunately for me, they were. They were worthless primarily because they offered techniques that were either unethical or borderline illegal, that is, spamming or breaking terms of service of several major companies.

No, I didn't ask for a refund. I knew going in I would likely be disappointed.

These days, I rarely read any of the WSOS. Part of me, is intrigued by new members who tout WSOs, because many of them really have never had much success in Internet marketing. Yet, they make themselves instant experts and promise grand schemes packed with promises of big money. They stuff them on these hideous looking so-called squeeze pages, which are pure drudgery to read. In fact, it's hard to imagine how one could spend so much time and use so many words to say so very little.

What really amazes me about many of the WSOs I've seen, is the basic fact they offer no real business other than hustling the next guy into making a purchase. They never offer any real products or services, only promises and visions of grandeur that would never be offered for $7.

So, once again, I really don't feel sorry for someone who gets a nasty refunder on their latest WSO. It's just part of the game.

IMHO I think this is a multi-factorial problem.

1) Unreasonable customer expectations fuelled by overblown copy. Problem is that everyone who writes sales copy (myself included) knows that the hypey, overblown, emotionally driven, copy sells - simple as that!

So, do you cut the emotionally driven copy, and know that you'll sell much less, or do you include the hype copy and know that you'll sell more. With emotionally driven copy comes bigger expectations (e.g. the "5 click web business"????) and hence bigger disappointments, and as a result more extreme reactions from those disappointed customers! This is simple 101 psychology.

2) The anonymity of the internet makes it so much easier for certain customers to request refunds (and to even be really, really nasty while they do it). These people would probably not be so "in your face" if they had to ring you on the phone, or indeed come to your shop in person to request a refund.

They simply feel "safe" asking for an anonymous refund - especially on sites like Clickbank where they don't have to contact the vendor at all. Easy refunds mean more refunds. Why are we surprised by this?

One question. Have you ever tried to send something back to Amazon?

3) I agree that the WSO market and the Clickbank market have been trained to refund! I'm led to believe that Clickbank now has refund rates of up to 30% - 40% depending on the product! When you compare this to high street stores this is an appalling refund rate. It has little to do with the products, and so much more to do with the market.

4) As sellers we have made this rod for our own backs by continually devaluing our products. You know what I'm talking about! The "$5,750 value product for only $7" type of product, or the "$15,000 worth of bonuses for FREE!" Please, give me a break!!!! Does anyone actually believe this any more?

No one in their right minds in real business would even consider selling like this. That's because hard products have a "real" value i.e. they take a certain amount of cash to produce and distribute. Digital products are of course different.

5 ) We have commoditised our digital products and have embraced the "less is more" strategy - i.e. If we sell "X" at $97 then if we reduce the price to $7 then we will surely sell so much more! This is a flawed strategy. How many multi national businesses have gone out of business working on this pricing model?

I agree with those who say we should create more value and better quality, and then charge more rather than less. BUT there are lazy marketers out there who still believe they can sell nothing for something, and who still think it's OK to take a tired, old, stale, PLR ebook and charge $67 for it. Is it any wonder the market gets jaded?

I work in other markets selling digital products and have a zero refund rate. I also work in other markets where I don't offer a refund at all, and have never had any complaints in several years of doing business!

The vast majority of online buyers are not refund orientated BUT we have trained OUR market to be that way. We as internet marketers in the "make money / biz op" (call it what you will) market have customers that will pay ridiculous amounts of money for our products. That's what makes it such a lucrative market to be in!

The flip side is that we have to put up with those who call us on our refund guarantee. maybe this is the payoff for having a mass market of rabid buyers, who don't mind spending millions of dollars every year.

Glad to see this discussion, I hope it results in some serious thinking and maybe even some action!

I can see the points of folks here about hypeyness. One poster referred back to the OP stating that's not the problem here, it was the buyer's unreasonable expectations or basically just wanting to get the product for free because he can.

I think you're both right, and for different reasons. It's not just a matter of that particular sales page, product or copy. It's also a result of the SPACE that we're in.

We exist in a space where, no matter what your ad copy says, everywhere you look we have a STANDARD BEING SET. People's expectations are being set by what we "collectively" advertise.

So even though your products are based on realistic strategies, all around you are other carnival barkers shouting "We will do it all for you! Just pay $10 and we will make you a millionaire while you're at the bar or out fishing! You don't have to do anything!"

It's as if, were we to throw away our brains for a second, we're in a world where all you need to do is go put in a few shifts at McDonalds and BANG; you buy our product and you're set for life. Hell even at $97 a week or something equally outrageous, what's it matter? You're going to be getting checks and deposits of thousands every single day and all you have to do is collect the cash!

Obviously this is silly, but it's a reality. There's no reason to expect anything different when the precedent we set in this industry is that if we just find the right product, system or guru we can become millionaires in a few months for the cost of a night out on the town. And with each purchase that doesn't live up to it's hype, I think most people are going to go one of 3 ways. 1) Most common: Give up "This is just a network of scams and ripoff artists." 2) Next most common: Just get the money back and try something else. "Well, that wasn't the right thing for me or I couldn't figure it out, but hey look at this, this looks promising..." 3) least common: Be skeptical of everything you see, research the topics and don't spend any money on anything that sounds even slightly "Too good to be true".

I don't think there's an easy solution to any of this. Certainly not the advice of one poster "Just don't offer refunds then." Do that, and you'll lose even MORE money. (Funny how huge this space is and yet so many vendors and marketers have zero understanding of the credit card chargeback process. There are fees you know. Your buyer will get the money back. If you give it back willingly then you only lose what they paid you. Fight it and you'll lose their money and a bunch of your own as well.)

it can be annoying at times when someone emails you saying

"hey, i went through your product it's really good and solid but i really don't have time to use it at the moment so could i have a refund please"

lol, some people do actually say this

however that being said the serial refunders only amount to about 0.01% of people that buy your products

yes it can be annoying at times but the pro's of doing wso's far far far out way the con's

for getting say 300 buyers on your list you may get a few serial refunders and a few awkward customers but apart from that you are left with 290 good customers

i can live with that :-)

I never offer refunds on a WSO. If someone wants a guarantee
then they can buy at the normal price and then ask for the refund.

And only once in the many years I was asked for a refund on a WSO
and the excuse was "good, but I won't use it" as well. So this seems
to be a common "nice" way of asking for a refund.

But again in my 10 years of selling online I've NEVER had a complaint
about the quality of products I sell. In fact, I've had the opposite
complaint customers said I should be charging more. That's the
way I want it to be.

-Ray Edwards

I have been a buyer of WSOs for over a year now, and I have never once asked for a refund.

Why?

Because I figure it's all a part of my education. I managed to learn all about a ton of different methods and then choose the one that I wanted to focus on. Sure there were a few duds in there, but most of the products I purchased were pretty decent. I stopped purchasing recently because I was getting product after product that said exactly the same thing. Once that happens it is time to stop educating yourself through reading and start educating yourself through acting (if you aren't already).

Oddly enough, the two products that I have acted on were not WSOs. I paid 20 for one and 500 for the other. I've also gotten more actionable advice from the War Room. That was $37 well spent.

I hear ya man.

I've considered throwing my hat into the ring with a WSO...but am a bit reluctant for the reasons that you mentioned.

Actually, it's been a blessing in disguise because I just turn my WSOs into blog posts...which probably bring me more money in the long-run anyway.

I have yet to make my own WSOs, so this is coming from someone who has been on the consumer side of things. I've bought LOTS of WSOs. Some Great, some okay and some that suck. I've only asked for a refund 3 times out of over 100 WSO purchases. As a WSO consumer I have some advice for product developers from a customer's perspective...

I would recommend first and foremost, please state what your products do in clear English. The blind copy, hype and total exaggerations of many WSOs lead to buyer’s remorse. The expectations are high but most products fail to deliver on their claims.

Another problem I see a lot is how many sellers promise lifetime upgrades and support for their products. Then a month or 2 later they've abandoned the product entirely having moved on to other products and offering no upgrades and or support as promised, then they wonder why they get trashed in threads of future launches. It's called karma!

I know in the IM market truth in advertising is rare. Those who are serious about quality should be very upfront and forthright when describing their products. If there are OTOs then state it in the ad copy and how much they are as well as how they complement the original offering. There are way too many games played. It’s similar to going to a car dealer and finding out after the sale the engine and transmission are additional.

I also agree there are far too many products that are obviously rehashed garbage and that's why it's being sold at rock bottom pricing or it’s a very high level gloss over of a method(s) without much detail or information.

The bottom line is, product developers should start treating IM like any other business. State on your sales pages the actual offer and state it clearly. Leave the hype and BS out. If there are additional features and products that either compliment or enhance the original product then state it in the ad copy upfront.

Nothing pisses me off more than buying a product for $X.00 only to find out after the initial sale, that usually for a lot more than the original offer, if I want the product to do what was advertised or better then I have to shell out even more money. And products with more than one OTO are the worst and make me want a refund because I feel duped.

Next, I wouldn’t offer a refund if the buyer, after being informed of all the necessary information on the product so as to make an intelligent buying decision, must show proof they actually applied the strategy or used the product as described before given a refund.

Also charge accordingly for your product. I see far too many offers making all kinds of money claims being sold for $1 to $19. Come on people, we all know anything that sounds too good to be true usually is. Any product that is a true business solution is not going to sell that cheaply. It also drags the perceived value of other worthwhile products down.

The only exception to the above should be, if you are launching a product and need testers and or testimonials then fine, discount it as such but explain that as a condition in the sales letter. Also charging a fair price for a fair product or service is an incentive for the product creator to offer stellar support as well as upgrades and fixes in exchange for testing and testimonials.

Additionally I would recommend, making it worthwhile for the product creator to offer good support, and continued development of the product, especially on software, to charge a sufficient price. Only offer minor feature enhancements and fixes until there is a new full version release. Just like any other software company does. It’s unrealistic to expect a business to keep offering upgrades and support for free for life. Again, if it’s sounds too good to be true it usually is.

I think a lot of WSO buyers have unreal expectations of low prices, high quality products and free lifelong development and support of products, which is ridiculous for anything of reasonably good quality. This I blame on the less than honest product creators who are in it for the quick buck.

So to sum it up…

Be truthful in ad copy.
If there’s an OTO state it upfront and what it is, does and what it costs.
Produce quality products.
Charge a reasonable price.
Provide good support.
Don’t over promise and under deliver.

I would have to agree completely. Certain offers and products attract a certain type of buyer. I myself have had dealings with some very bad mannered customers after they asked for a refund without providing me with any information about the transaction so I could actually refund the correct person.

Also, here's a couple great Mark Cuban quotes.

I bought 4. Two of the four looked like they were slapped together in one night, with grammatical and spelling errors abounding.

One had more up-selling of the OTO in it than actual helpful content.

You go to the author's home page or blog and find it under construction, or bare-- having three posts and no comments, yet the author is lauded as a "famed expert in his field" by suppurating reviewers.

You really feel conned.

That's why people refund.

And btw, I didn't request any refunds. But I sure as hell won't make the WSO mistake again .

I bought so many things and almost never asked for a refund. It's really stupid for asking a refund on a product which is 7-10$. In most cases i asked for a refund if it's a total SCAM, otherwise i don't. Most products are not so good, but hey they are below 10$. If we stick for those "10$" we are f**ked!

Yes I have noticed some people are just window shoppers.

I have gotten this several times :

Hey thanks for calling me and installing the software for me and spending an hour and a half on the phone with me explaining everything and making sure I understand how your software works but I decided that I dont have time to do this right now so I want a refund, please send me a refund right now, oh and by the way I didnt include my transaction ID in this email because I want to make it as difficult as possible for you to refund me but if you dont do it right away Im going to file a paypal complain for not as described even though it does work exactly as described, but I just 'assumed' your script was a WordPress plug in even though you never even mentioned WordPress. So thanks!

Obviously I didnt get that email literately but I have gotten a few 'like' it. Most of my buyers are good people, but there are some out there who abuse the refund policy. Ill gladly give anyone a refund if the script does not work as expected. But when someone says 'It works great, I just changed my mind; it kind of urks me. Especially when I spend an hour on the phone with them helping them out.

People selling hopes and dreams to people wanting to win the lottery of life will find the odd angry person ready to pizzle your day off as they bang on the door of unhappiness and life is not fair. In many ways it would be expected so not sure why when it happens people get upset.

I buy WSO based on the following.

1. Genuine reviews...not fake ones.
2. Reputation of Seller.
3. Is the WSO going to help my business?
4. Support
5. Refund Policy

I buy a lot of WSO's and asked about 2- 3 times for a refund cuz it was

- a crap
- not as advertised at the sales page
- software didn't worked (that refund never arrived tough)

Now outside the WF. We sell our CB product to "normal" people around the planet, individuals and small biz customers.

One asked a refund because she couldn't copy and paste here password and username into the login box (after trying for 3 days, forgot to ask if she is blond)...

Another one wasn't able to install the Abobe Flash Player...

Third asked for refund at day 61 after purchase (sorry, I forgot to send you the refund request yesterday)....

and you know what, we refunded EVERYONE without even arguing.

It's just not worth your time to discuss with people which are on that level, believe me.

Be kind, give the refund and focus on selling.

G.

[DELETED]

Just imagine if ALL WSO sellers re-trained their buyers to accept no refunds as part of the process of getting a deal on something, i.e.; all sales are final.

Sure, you're going to get a few PayPal disputes and charge backs, but not nearly as many as you might think. You're also going to lose sales, but that's a good thing - the lost sales are almost always the tire kickers, the serial refunders, etc., that you don't want anyways.

I've run a no-refund model for years on both scripts/software and the occasional info product with no major loss as a result. Every time I re-test it, I get slammed with tire kickers or worse, who normally aren't regular customers anyways.

Keep in mind that having a stated no-refund policy doesn't mean that, as the seller, you can't make a decision to refund those who have legitimate issues. We do refund under specific circumstances, but our policy allows us to decide that - not an unreasonable customer.

Personally, I'd love to see the WSO forum move away from any interaction at all - like Paul's newspaper analogy, change it so you can't comment on the ads or give feedback publicly in the same media. Let the buyers and sellers deal with the issues off-forum like real business people and real customers.

If nothing else, it gives some overworked mods a much needed break

For sellers, I think you need to take the good with the bad. There's tremendous upside to selling on the forum, but it's a public forum and you never know who's going to come on your thread, who's going to buy, and how they're going to act. It's all part the game.

To some extent, I can empathize with the increasing amount of buyer frustration (not the irrational crazy people) the 'normal' people that all they want is what's advertised.

Since I promote software, plugins, etc. people generally know what they're buying. So it makes it easier to some extent.

The quality of info products seems to be on a steady decline and has been for the past 6-8 months.

I'm amazed that more sellers don't fight back and defend their product on the thread but honestly, most products now are designed specifically to sell on the forum. It's a fairy tail written down in order to make quick cash.

I didn't say ALL, but enough to make it look bad.

When you know what's really going on and 'how the sausage is made', it becomes painfully obvious.

Many people think if you run a WSO, you're going to make money. The reality is, most fail to sell 10-25+ copies.

There's Facebook groups dedicated to selling WSO's filled with 1,000+ people. When you go in there, the vast majority don't have the experience or skills to create an info product. But they're seeking to strike it rich in the WSO section... like scratching off a lottery ticket. And this is spurred on by other members, people offering coaching, and those that encourage them to stay positive and get that product out there. (even if that product is garbage)

In the 'old days' it was simple. You have a product, list it in the WSO section, it cost $20 to bump, your listing lasted on the first page for 24-36 hours. It was profitable from organic Warrior traffic.

Now, you need affiliates to drive traffic. If you don't currently have a list or can attract affiliates, your offer is essentially dead in the water because the marketplace is crowded (unless you're active out here, promote your sig, and drive traffic yourself).

To get the affiliates, sometimes the product suffers. One of the elements to attracting affiliates is a funnel with at least one OTO. Some sellers will 'thin out' the frontend just for the sake of offering an OTO. Add in some hype, a sales page that converts, 100% commissions on the frontend, chances are you'll have success.

But the buyer suffers when things like this happen. Frustrated people will not only lash out on that sellers thread, but carry an attitude into any other offer they see/buy.

Yes, there are people out there that buy and demand the world from you. But not everyone who refunds is a 'serial refunder'. There are sellers that have no business selling and irrational buyers that shouldn't be buying.

It is what it is when it comes to WSO's... it takes balls to sell on this forum.

I feel like I have to add my 2 cents here coz I have myself come across a WSO which "I wont use" and hence requested for a refund.

Now there are many reasons one wont "use" a WSO -
1. You are lazy
2. You dont have time
3. You wanna be a mean ass to the seller
4. You are dumb

My reason was that the WSO was black hat - something that could put my (and others who implement it) account/reputation/IP at a huge risk by breaking copyright laws across the globe. Hence I WONT use it. I didnt want to put that in the WSO thread coz being a WSO seller myself, I dont want to ruin someone's reputation . So I said it as politely as possible on his thread. I feel it's only fair to be nice to sellers while ensuring they keep up to their part of the deal. Win win for all !

The sale of digital goods on here is ungoverned and has no protection or sense of trade rules for the buyer or seller. The distribution of digital goods on the web is generally like this anyway. There's so much crap being sold that peoples demands on sellers are higher. You sell on a black market, you have no real reason to complain about black market buyers. Open a shop on the high street if you want protection from moaning buyers.

There is simply not enough organic traffic on the WSO section now and far too many trolls

I have found that by telling them in the refund policy that if after applied it doesn't work I will gladly refund them their money. I am no authority with only 150 sales, but not a single refund request. Seems simple enough.

And you should also agree that those buyers who ask for the refund, don't even bother to read the full WSO sales page and the description. Most of them just click it on 'Buy Now' and think, they will become millionaire after clicking that 'Buy now' button only! But when they actually get the WSO, they realize (although I have doubt on this!) it is not possible to become a millionaire just by clicking a button.

And that is very annoying!

You know you're successful and you're doing something right when you're pissing people off. Look up any of the top brand name IM gurus and look up reviews on them. People get angry as hell when they purchase things and it doesn't turn out to be an instant solution to all the world's problems.

Musicians/Actors get death threats all the time just because some people don't like their work.

People are insane. It doesn't matter what you do, not everyone's going to like you or like what you do. On the other side of what you said, a lot of people hire people from the "Looking To Hire" section of the forum specifically for the purpose of creating positive comments.

If people are really surprised that people in business for themselves are dirty and low down, you should really see how corporations work on the inside, it'll make your jaw drop how careless and dirty they get for the slightest reason or benefit.

While it's somewhat off topic, I would like to see categories in the WSO Section, save people wading through all the "SEO" experts.

Nothing absurd, no need to categorize to death but something like:

SEO Services.
Graphic Design
Coding Services
CPA /PPC / Media Buying .
Scripts / Wordpress Plugins
Coaching Programs and 1 on 1
Offline Promotions
Social Media Services

That kind of thing.

I think that would help folks see what they need more clearly.

I would still suggest a "view all" for those that enjoy wading through the mayhem.

Those seem at best vague guesses and this isn't DP.

My bet is those with decent products in their respective categories would favor not being thrown in with every other non relevant wso's. They would have a far greater chance of actually being noticed in the sea of crazy that is the current WSO section.

Not only that, the people looking in those sections would be people specifically looking for that kind of information, so more targeted, less window shoppers , more serious purchases.. perhaps, admittedly guess work but educated guess work at that.

There's a reason almost any selling platform e-commerce solution has categories and doesn't lump every single product type into one category alone.

Those who prefer window shopping the lot can use "view all. " mode.

There's no real downside and plenty if organisational upside.

I'm willing to wager folks would release decent wso content at sane prices if they were not all lumped in with low rent crud, they would actually stand a chance of people seeing the thing for all the effort they put in.

From my perspective I would rather have my WSO I'm a category of 10 products than 500 anyway, even if it potentially had less views. The negatives to my mind don't come close to outweighing the positives.

Its unfortunate, but refunds have become a part of the im niche.

I must be an anomaly on WF.

I have bought quite a number of WSOs in the last few years. Some excellent, some good, some a waste of time for me. I have never refunded a WSO because 9 out of 10 times I have learned something that made the $7 - $15 worthwhile. I don't seriously expect a $10 WSO to solve all my problems. What I do expect is that I will learn a new skill, a new piece of knowledge, that will fit in to the IM knowledge I am accumulating by hanging around here. If I don't learn anything valuable then I don't buy from that person again. Easy.

Each WSO has been a learning experience for me and I am happy with that and I salute WF for providing this service.

Some WSO-s are trash, and some WSO buyers are dishonest. Decent people need protection from both. Why not work out a special WF refund policy? Let's imagine a system where refunds are paid out only if a specific percentage of buyers demand it. Let's say... 20%.

If 20% of buyers ask their money back then WSO is clearly not worth much, and it's fair enough that they got refunded. But, if only a few people ask for a refund and all others are satisfied with the product, then we can be sure that it's quality is OK and no refund is justified.

I think one other big problem that WSO sellers currently have would be solved by implementing such a system. Black hat forums distribute pirated WSO-s. I'm absolutely sure they make part of refunds. If they cannot get it any more, new WSO-s stop appearing in their forums, and as a result WSO sellers can make more money.

This thread is all over the shop now but in regards the pricing issue.

I would say this.

I don't want to see some poor guy / gal who's poured their heart and soul into their first WSO get lumbered with a $500 fee to get it listed.

Over the years folks have got started in the WSO section, and gone on to make fantastic products , yet had not a dime to rub together to start with.

However..

If somebody is allowed to make a claim in a WSO which is akin to

"I make $5000.00 per month using this easy technique in just 2 hours a day" or similar.

Then those people should have ZERO issue stumping up 10% of this easy 2 hours a day revenue to list their amazing magical cash generating WSO.

If the product is that good, and it's so easy and their making $60k per annum doing it in just 2 hours a day, why would 10% of the supposed monthly earnings be a big deal?

I don't want to see all WSO's have huge barriers to entry, it doesn't make sense, many WSO's aren't promising huge revenue, they are offering services or concepts or aren't even directly revenue related.

But those promising the earth and stipulating huge revenue claims should have no problem putting their money where their mouth is.

It may also stop the all to common occurrence of seeing people with a WSO claiming how many thousands of bucks they make every day, then being seen for example, in the copy writing section asking if somebody could do the work for free/cheap because they don't any funds.

The WSO section would be a lot better off in charlatans had a barrier to entry on offers which promise the world, when clearly these people arn't making a dam penny and they just regurgitated an existing concept and wrapped it in their own re-written text and shiny new PDF.

These are the worst for sucking the newbies in.

Hey there -

Here's a serious question for you - can I have your baby?

Great post ;-)

Tim

It doesn't take much to realize that everybody is flocking online to make some money. Relying on traditional money making activities is very much a struggle in order to make ends meet. The internet has now become the place where people are seeking that golden solution to their financial troubles and commitments.

Most people today are awash with credit card debt, mortgage burdens and auto loans. In addition to this people have to contend with taking care of feeding, educating and taking care of their families health needs. Traditional employees are now embracing becoming online entrepreneurs in a quest to reach that level of financial security.

With hundreds of thousands of individuals rushing online today, opportunities are abound. Many new programs and businesses are starting up in order to get a slice of this pie. Programs from MLM, HYIPS, Cash Gifting to Betting programs are attempting to lure that massive surge of people online.

Unfortunately, many people are not getting their needs met and end up losing money.

On the other hand their are those few that would bitch if they were buried in a gold coffin and would not know a good thing if it slapped them in the face

I have bought numerous WSO,s from this forum and have found that the content of the venders here is much better for the price than most any other sales platform , "bar none".

I believe that most of the time you get what you pay for, and so ,When you come here to be educated be prepared to pay the price .

Most people know this but there will always be the few that are lazy and want everything handed to them for nothing with "NO WORK" .

I predict that the refund issue will continue to digress as our society becomes more socialist in "Free" giveaway programming .

I always try to remember that there are two different kinds of people in the world.

There are GIVERS and there are TAKERS ,Which are YOU ?

OK guy's, you convinced me, reviewing WSO's is impossible so let's forget this.

It's just sad to see a place go in a direction we certainly don't want. But I believe that you agree that a improvement would be a nice thing to have.

So how's about having a sellers rating system (maybe with stars) like a seller rating at Fiverr or similar?

Could be for each WSO or for the seller in generall for who run's several WSO's.

Buyers will get the possibility to rate the WSO they purchased and/or the seller anonymously on a scale from 1 - 5 (or something similar) which will be shown in the thread.

Guess products and support will improve with this.

That would also be difficult to be influenced by the WSO affiliates which post many times a great review just so his list will go to the WSO and see he purchased it.

Would that be possible to implement?

G.

Just to re-enforce the mentality of a lot of the people selling products in the WSO forum, I would like to quote this question someone just asked in the main discussion forum:

The sad thing is this is probably the mentality of the average WSO vendor nowadays. They don't care about creating quality products. A lot of them only care about making a quick buck with as little a work as possible. The blind leading the blind. It's up to us, together, to stomp these people out of our community.

Now granted this person might actually be looking for software to create a salespage or the like, but I guarantee you this mentality exists amongst some of the sellers. They would love a software program that spat out cheap and worthless WSO products they could sell.

Will,

Thanks man, I'll get right on it.

George Wright

[DELETED]

You are absolutely right!

and those people before they buy the wso , they will keep asking hundreds of questions to the seller and then; they decide to buy it after 10 minutes or less they will ask for refund!

That's why I have decided not refund my wsos as long as I am answering all the questions said by buyers before they buy it!


Thanks for the thread, it was really great topic to be discussed

Kindest Regards
Samah

Great thread by the way. The conduct of some buyers I've seen recently has been absolutely scandalous; just simple things like not using a support email that has been clearly given in the FAQ or sales letter and posting in the thread really isn't acceptable.

I like the look of some "take action" guarantees I've seen; so it might be a 30 day guarantee, but you can only request a refund after 14 days to prove you've taken action.

I always try to ask the sellers as many question that I can about the product just to avoid asking a refund,although some of them are ignoring messeges or saying somthing general like "it might work for you,see for yourself".
I hate asking for refunds,it takes time.

What about just setting a "minimum price" level for all WSO's ?
no more $7 products ! ? Make the minimum you can sell a WSO $25
That would get rid of any junk, and good offers would stand strong.

I've paid over $25 for GOOD ebooks and been more than happy with
my purchase. Perhaps this would be the best and most simple solution.
What do you think warriors ?

cheers


Jeff

What about having a minimum post count before you're allowed to launch a WSO ?
we have a minimum post count for sending PMs, why not make people get to
know the forum a bit, meet some people, and prove they care about communicating
with others before they're allowed to launch a WSO ?

That would not limit any one to a rating system or change in price structure.
It would just mean that people have to prove that they are a real person that
wants to communicate and learn about how this forum works a bit before they
can slap up any old crap offer.
Perhaps 100 posts ?

what do you think warriors ?


Jeff

Well the refund terms must be very clear. Otherwise it's not customer's fault if they want a refund in accordance to their way.

Thanks to this thread, I'm putting up my refund T&C.

Blacklist them immediately.

People are always looking for ways to get things 'for free'.

I even got PMs of someone saying he had a very big list and if he could get a review copy. LOL.

i use the blacklist feature on JvZoo, espically for prople who put paypal disuptes in.

If some askes for a refund via my support desk, they get one within 48hrs. I they are too dumb or lazy to use the support desk, then I don't want them as a customer.

[DELETED]

On some other forums I visit with sales sections similar to the WSO one people have to be a member for a certain amount of time (60-90 days), have a certain number of 'quality' posts and no warnings to post a classified ad / offer / service. This obviously deters a lot of people who are up to no good or out to scam.

So glad someone finally posted about this! I've read so many WSO threads and launched a few WSO's myself and some of these WSO buyers blow my mind!! I've seen some of the same crazy refund requests and comments on the WSO threads. Angry Warriors who have not even purchased the product yet asking about OTO's, if there is a 24x7 help desk, and getting rude and upset if the WSO seller doesn not respond within 5 minutes, etc.... FOR A $7 PURCHASE!! *ugh* I had never seen anything like it before Warrior Forum. It really is unbelievable to me. It's $7!! And then there are the refunders. Oh, the refunders. I've seen and even received messages like... "I've downloaded everything and decided that it wasn't for me, please refund". We have a WSO currently that is nearly 5GB is content and we have received refund requests just like that! So, you mean to tell me that you've managed to download ALL 5GB of the content (videos, PLR, ebooks, plugins, etc) to your hard drive and NOW you've decided that it may not be for you?!?!? Yeah. It gives me an ulcer. Sometimes, these buyers are worse than Clickbank buyers, which we all know is "Land of the Free". So many of these products/offers could easily sell for hundreds, if not thousands, elsewhere. :/

Warriors.... do all of us WSO sellers a favor - If you buy something, and it really is a good product and you received what you were promised (or even more), don't be scammer! Part with your $7 happily and apply the info and knowledge from the WSO to make some $$$, instead of thinking how you can get something for free.

OP - thanks so much for bringing up this subject, as I think it really is a sore spot for many WSO sellers and should be addressed. I don't think these buyers realize how their actions may easily taint the WSO market and Warrior Forum, as a whole.

Recently I have been covering a friends first WSO thread because his wife went into early labor and just delivered their first baby (she had previously miscarried so it was iffy to say the least)...

This WSO was a pretty decent software for what it was desigend to do and his customer service is great. I informed his customers that he would be out of the thread for a few days (and explained why) and most of his customers were quite understanding...except one...

This jerk had the nerve to ask for a refund because he had joined a beta group for a similar product shortly after purchasing the WSO and said he no longer needed the one he purchased. He never said it didnt work, never said he was unhappy with it...simply that he didnt need it since he was beta testing a competitors product (then went on to name the product in the thred...which I reported). Seriously now, how frikin cheap is that? That guy made my black list instantly! What a jerk!

The problem with not offering refunds (and trust me Ive thought of it) is that PP prefers you give the customer options (even if some customers take advantage of that fact)...

[DELETED]

I haven't had a refund problem yet, but I've only had one WSO so far with limited sales, ranging from $17 to Free as of now (lol). Just testing the waters really....

But I have a 30-day, no questions asked refund policy. I've studied too much Jay Abraham not to offer at least that.

I'm not complaining any more then anyone else here.
I'm just trying to help come up with a good idea.
I don't depend on window shoppers, or I would have given up
on WSO's a long time ago. I'm just putting in my 2 cents like everyone else.

Everyone here is very interested in getting their opinion out.
But I don't see any one here doing much except saying how other's ideas won't work.
True, some of them are flawed, and some are very flawed.
But we need to stop arguing who's idea is better and why, and just
try some good ideas out. If it works good, if it doesn't no harm done.

It's good that we're talking about it, except we're all just trying validate
our own opinions. I think we should just try some ideas out and see how it goes.

We have all agreed that a 100 post count restriction and a 3 ( or more even )
month account restriction would "maybe" help. Why not try it and see ?
As another person posted earier, other forums are doing exactly that, and
it works for them. No one here seemed to be opposed to the idea either.

We restrict PM's until you've had a 50 post count, this would be no different.
Add the 3+ month membership restriction and that should make "a dent"
which will matter.

I'm not saying it's a perfect idea without flaws, but it could work and has been
proven to work on other sites. So why not give it a whirl ?

Anyways, I'm just really interested in this subject because I do run WSO's myself
and I am glad that we are all talking about this. Like Paul said, it's nice to see
everyone keeping things happy on this thread and no one is getting "mean"
which is nice to see for a change.

Perhaps this thread will result in some changes that can affect us all in a positive way.

cheers
Jeff

hey Paul,
I don't complain, I just keep to myself. I was just trying to help.
I'm not casting any stones, I was saying it's nice we can all discuss this.
I just felt some people don't want to try ideas out. That's all.
Have a great day !

Jeff

To further my point and the original point of this entire thread... our experience has been: no issues with the classified offer in terms of chronic refunders, buyer-scammers, etc.. -VS- most of our WSO's almost always having at least a few of the ridiculous refund requests. Here's my point... if a buyer legitimately is not satisfied with the purchase, of course they should receive a refund. If a buyer downloads all content and bonuses and then says something like "Just not really for me", or "Just wasn't that overwhelmed" - that is ridiculous, IMO. I even had one last week request a refund because they were having difficulty downloading a free, UNADVERTISED bonus that I included. THAT is what I'm talking about. My fingers are crossed that these types of buyers are very much a small percentage and not trending.

Just treat it as an usual mild risk.

I have to agree with the OP. People really need to get a grip .

But just like Paul said " The concepts of balance and personal responsibility are completely foreign to these folk."

Some of them act like 8 year old kids. I had a guy who LEFT A POSITIVE REVIEW first and after a few days came to me and asked for a refund...

Why you ask? "I am too old to make a video my eyes hurt" lol.

I ignored the request. After a few HOURS, he came to the thread and trashed it with Negative comments lol.. (after leaving his positive review )

Guess what? I refunded him not because I wanted more sales (had sold over 850 already), just coz I DIDN't want to waste a wee bit more energy on that topic for someone who couldn't live without his $7.21.

End of the story. It happens because This is a Forum with exactly 585,527 members as of now. I recommend you do self hosted launches if you got the resources (you-know-what) and create a [Reviewers-Wanted] thread and take a screenshot of those reviews and put it in the sales page for Social Proof .

As long as you are on a forum... you will face this. Remember, you should control your biz and life n not your customers .

My 3 cents .

Not sure why fellow WSO sellers are crying over 2% refund rates lol...

A small fraction of people are just going to rip you off.

But having a guarantee dramatically boosts profits.

So it's worth having not only an unconditional guarantee, but a ballsy one.

The benefits far outweigh having to deal with a few scammers.

Whenever you get some crazy butthead scammer, just refund, blacklist, buh bye, move on.

Look. I'm done here. Sick of being insulted by someone who doesn't even understand basic direct marketing.

If you want to leave money on the table, go for it.

But I just wanted other members here to know that they shouldn't be listening to this misinformation.