PayPal and Income screenshots, are they real?

93 replies
Since being back on The WF after a fairly long hiatus, I have noticed so many people selling based on screenshots from PP, etc.

While I would hope people aren't making these up or altering them, I am not that Nieve to think it isn't happening.

However, the question I have is with the new law that came down, particularly in the U.S. where merchant companies such as PayPal, Authorize.net are now required to report your earnings of over 20K to the government, why aren't people just posting their 1099 K at least in the U.S. to show the money they are claiming to make?

Yes, you can still photoshop this but it would be harder and it would be a federal offense (forging a government document is automatic jail time) and much more risky.

This form shows the true picture of the income you actually receive so why aren't people showing us this instead of some photoshop shots.
#income #paypal #real #screenshots
  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    I have a lot of different income streams so showing my tax return would not help the situation an to be honest I don't want people to know exactly what I make......

    Danny
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      I have a lot of different income streams so showing my tax return would not help the situation an to be honest I don't want people to know exactly what I make......

      Danny
      I am not talking about a tax return, I am talking about a specific document showing income from a specific payment processor such as PP and it breaks it down by month right on the document.

      A tax return includes all of your income, this document only includes payments from that particular processor.

      So, if you claim to have made 55K on a launch in say December of 2012 and you used PP for that launch, this document would show that you in fact did make that much and if you forged it and get caught you will go to jail. It is a lot different than showing an image and carefully chosen screenshots, you aren't forging an actual legal document
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        By the way, I hope nobody is doing this, I have just been seeing so much of this lately that I am curious why if people are willing to show these screenshots they aren't showing it on an actual legal document.

        Inquiring minds just want to know
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        • This just isn't worth concerning yourself with. Better to focus your attention on not getting sucked into the sales psychology they use, and stay objective about their pitch. Don't let their frame take control.

          A good book if you want to understand more about framing, in order to also not succumb to it quite as much, is Pitch Anything.

          And as already mentioned, Photoshop is the least of it, only someone who is really not very technically competent, would even use Photoshop to manipulate an earnings screenshot. If they are really clever, it's possible to create a script that would actually modify the browser screen in realtime as they logged into Paypal. So even seeing someone live log into an account, doesn't guarantee that the numbers are real. Just don't base your decisions on what someone else has made with something. Base them on how whatever product/service they are offering, might help you in what you are doing or want to do. Then you don't have to concern yourself with their numbers.

          JVC
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          • Profile picture of the author brseminars
            Originally Posted by Jonathan van Clute View Post

            This just isn't worth concerning yourself with. Better to focus your attention on not getting sucked into the sales psychology they use, and stay objective about their pitch. Don't let their frame take control.

            A good book if you want to understand more about framing, in order to also not succumb to it quite as much, is Pitch Anything.
            I agree, but I am interested in this topic and curious what others think about it.

            Yes, photoshop was just used as an example and not the only example of being misleading in sales copy, there are many other variations.
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  • About 4 years ago, I was approached by someone who wanted to create a product based on my success and story (I do have an interesting one - and it was with a company I worked for a long time ago)

    I was taken into a room and they wanted my 'paypal screenshots'

    But - they wanted to take the source code and change the numbers to show that they were just a little higher!

    They were already high, so I didn't see the purpose of making them just a little higher - but it never sat right with me.

    Needless to say, I didn't sign my name to that product or gave any permission to develop a product with my name or story.

    Instead, a couple of years later I just improved upon my successes and made my OWN product.

    I've been around long enough to know that if you're not honest with your claims and upfront with the 'effort required' to achieve those results, no amount of money made will be worth the hole you dug yourself in.

    So - it's not just PHOTOSHOP you have to worry about... They go to the SOURCE code and manipulate that to change the numbers.

    Sad, really.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

      Since being back on The WF after a fairly long hiatus, I have noticed so many people selling based on screenshots from PP, etc.

      While I would hope people aren't making these up or altering them, I am not that Nieve to think it isn't happening.
      The reason so many post the stupid things is because all the idiots come out and demand 'proof'. You would think that most people would be smart enough to realize that it's not any kind of proof, since they can be faked so easily, but apparently there are a lot of naive or stupid people around.

      ... why aren't people just posting their 1099 K at least in the U.S. to show the money they are claiming to make?
      How is that any better proof? I could make a million dollars and show you a 1099 to back it up - but that doesn't tell you HOW I actually made the money. I could have only made $10 with the method I'm teaching and you wouldn't know the difference from an overall amount like that.

      Yes, you can still photoshop this but it would be harder and it would be a federal offense (forging a government document is automatic jail time) and much more risky.
      Forging a government document may be illegal but forging an image of such a document is not. Big difference.

      It would be better for the sellers to stop making outrageous income claims and for buyers to stop demanding proof and start using the brain cells they were born with.
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post


        How is that any better proof? I could make a million dollars and show you a 1099 to back it up - but that doesn't tell you HOW I actually made the money. I could have only made $10 with the method I'm teaching and you wouldn't know the difference from an overall amount like that.

        Forging a government document may be illegal but forging an image of such a document is not. Big difference.

        It would be better for the sellers to stop making outrageous income claims and for buyers to stop demanding proof and start using the brain cells they were born with.
        I totally agree with you. I do think it is better proof actually though, because we are talking about a specific payment processor and a legal document.

        If someone says, hey I made 55K on this launch in February and they show this document instead of a screenshot and it isn't true, that is punishable by jail.

        My guess is most of those making the claims can't show us a 1099K or another legal document from a payment processor proving income from "any source", much less specifically the launch/product or whatever it is they are promoting

        Additionally, I see claims all the time saying they have been making thousands online for several years, well, prove it, there are legal documents to show as proof.

        I agree that income claims are way overused now and it is very hard to figure out what is real and not out there, which is why I asked the question.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    The sad part is that there are some real people and companies who do show screenshots of their PayPal earnings (It is real and they do earn that much) and then you have some scam artist who comes along and copies it just to make a few bucks here and there.

    I have seen this many times over the past 3 years online because I used to promote regular affiliate programs in the work at home niche which used real screenshots.

    Those who seemed suspicious, I would not even deal with them.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      The sad part is that there are some real people and companies who do show screenshots of their PayPal earnings (It is real and they do earn that much) and then you have some scam artist who comes along and copies it just to make a few bucks here and there.

      I have seen this many times over the past 3 years online because I used to promote regular affiliate programs in the work at home niche which used real screenshots.
      Huge Point!!
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        I was a part of one of Dan Kennedy's private mastermind groups years ago. I remember one of the requirements to get into this program is you had to show actual, legal proof that you made x amount if dollars in your business. There were some other stipulations to account for newcomers to the business, etc. as well.

        He didn't care if the income came from 1 product, 10 products or a thousand products, what he cared about was each of us was learning from someone with a "pattern" of success with either a one time product or over time with our business in general.
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  • Profile picture of the author mysterrio
    There are many reasons why people do not show their federal income tax paperwork. Also, yes the screen shots can be doctored and some are. However, there are still some honest marketers who show you real numbers.

    It does not matter what Marketer A makes or shows you because if you take another path, your outcome will be unique to you. So, buy from people you get a good feeling for and do not rely so much on the marketing materials.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by mysterrio View Post

      There are many reasons why people do not show their federal income tax paperwork. Also, yes the screen shots can be doctored and some are. However, there are still some honest marketers who show you real numbers.

      It does not matter what Marketer A makes or shows you because if you take another path, your outcome will be unique to you. So, buy from people you get a good feeling for and do not rely so much on the marketing materials.
      If it doesn't matter than why include it as a part of the sales process, I think that is why I am asking?

      Proof has been and always will be one of the most powerful forms of copy whether it be income proof, testimonials (which bring up a whole other discussion) and other items to back up your claims.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

        If it doesn't matter than why include it as a part of the sales process, I think that is why I am asking?

        Proof has been and always will be one of the most powerful forms of copy whether it be income proof, testimonials (which bring up a whole other discussion) and other items to back up your claims.
        It's included to sway those who lack critical thinking skills.

        Nevermind that screen captures and videos can be easily faked, even if they were real that doesn't mean a person buying the product can duplicate the results. While you can gain knowledge from a product, lacking the same skills, contacts, and experience as the marketer means you may very well likely NOT do as well.

        Nevermind that showing an income for a 2-week period doesn't really show anything because the marketer could have spent $5,000 to buy traffic to so he could get a good reporting period. It's possible to show a big income and to have lost money because the "proof" only shows income, not expenditures.

        A smart person scrolls right past the income screen shots and other "props" and tries to figure out exactly what is for sale, and then makes a determination as to whether or not the product will help him reach his goals.

        Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

        Very true, however it is nice to know the person you are dealing with has had success with what he/she is asking you to try.
        Yeah, that would be nice -- but income claims/screen captures don't provide that.
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        • Profile picture of the author brseminars
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          It's possible to show a big income and to have lost money because the "proof" only shows income, not expenditures.
          Yes, and that is a very good point, but I don't even see that happening.

          At least proving that you are making say 200K per year at least shows you have the ability to make 200K per year, regardless of expenses, which by the way could also be shown on a legal document, but that is a different subject

          The biggest thing usually missing with the online income claims is the amount paid out to affiliates. If you made 100K on a launch and paid out 100% then you made zero but in most cases people are claiming they made the 100K

          Again, this can all be shown on a legal document.

          Let's take a company like JV Zoo for example or any others, and please correct me if I am wrong.

          I do a launch with JV Zoo and I make 100K in sales but I payout 70% of that to affiliates, so in essence I make 30K.

          JV Zoo I believe is required to send me a 1099K or other documents depending on the country showing I made 30K right?

          So, if I am posting what I actually made and I am going to only post legal documents as proof, is it going to be 30K or 100K?

          And as mentioned already this doesn't include additional expenses.

          I personally would like to actually make money and I think everyone else would as well

          The key factor here, is JV Zoo can't fake your 1099K and neither can you without risking everything, including your freedom.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

            Again, this can all be shown on a legal document.
            Which can be faked just as easily.

            Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

            The key factor here, is JV Zoo can't fake your 1099K and neither can you without risking everything, including your freedom.
            You said you've been on a hiatus, so let me get you up to speed. You can go to jail for making false income claims in your sale copy, period. It doesn't have to be a government document you fake. The FTC has passed new regulations, aimed at online marketing, that can cost scammers huge fines and/or prison time.

            If a scammer is willing to risk his freedom by scamming people, which has always been against the law, I wouldn't expect him to be concerned by which kind of document he fakes. He'll do what he thinks will get him the most money, as long as it's easy.
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            • Profile picture of the author brseminars
              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              Which can be faked just as easily.


              You said you've been on a hiatus, so let me get you up to speed. You can go to jail for making false income claims in your sale copy, period. It doesn't have to be a government document you fake. The FTC has passed new regulations, aimed at online marketing, that can cost scammers huge fines and/or prison time.

              If a scammer is willing to risk his freedom by scamming people, which has always been against the law, I wouldn't expect him to be concerned by which kind of document he fakes. He'll do what he thinks will get him the most money, as long as it's easy.
              I've been on hiatus from the Warrior Forum and this topic came to my mind while scrolling through all the WSO over the past few months, I have been running an online business non-stop since 1997.

              Yes, you are right, they can be faked. However, faking a government document is much, much, much, much easier for the FTC and other governing bodies to find and prove as they have a record of them!! They very rarely prosecute anyone based on images/videos/screenshots because it costs too much money to investigate unless there are major and multiple complaints leading to the exact same screenshot.

              To illustrate the point....

              How many screenshots have you seen as an income claim online?

              Now, how many 1099K's have you seen as an income claim online?
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              • Profile picture of the author brseminars
                It's really not the downright, sleezy scammers I am really that particularly interested in, scammers will always be scammers and they are fairly easy to identify.

                It is the ones who are for the most part doing it innocently because that is what they see others doing.

                If the top guru's decided to make their product launches based on real, legal, documented proof and coached and taught others to do the same, how would that change things?
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

                I've been on hiatus from the Warrior Forum and this topic came to my mind while scrolling through all the WSO over the past few months, I have been running an online business non-stop since 1997.

                Yes, you are right, they can be faked. However, faking a government document is much, much, much, much easier for the FTC and other governing bodies to find and prove as they have a record of them!! They very rarely prosecute anyone based on images/videos/screenshots because it costs too much money to investigate unless there are major and multiple complaints leading to the exact same screenshot.

                To illustrate the point....

                How many screenshots have you seen as an income claim online?

                Now, how many 1099K's have you seen as an income claim online?
                Fair point, but I would argue that it's not the deterent factor that keeps them from faking a 1099k, because I'd wager most never thought to do it. Faking a screen shot is easy, and screen shots are common so they are believeable to a certain segment of people, that's why you see it everywhere and not the other.

                By the way, what I would consider better proof are claims verified and certified by an independent 3rd party with available contact information for confirmation.
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                • Profile picture of the author tagalog
                  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                  By the way, what I would consider better proof are claims verified and certified by an independent 3rd party with available contact information for confirmation.
                  Surely setting up some third party veirfication organisation could be done by someone with the know how? The scammers would s*** themselves if only sales pages with the verified accounts were purchased from.

                  But - before someone says it - even that could be faked.

                  Many people shout about how many millionaires the Internet has made, but few shout loudly about how many scammers have been made milionnairs through the Internet.

                  Again I say, Buyer Beware.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                    Originally Posted by David DeAndre View Post

                    I doubt it.

                    Some people say it's possible to fake a live video walk through of a Clickbank, PayPal, Google Analytics, real bank account etc. I say that's 100% BS. Is it possible? Yes. Could someone realistically do it? No way.

                    -snip-

                    If you did the whole thing from start to finish without pausing, you would need some seriously expensive blackhat software to duplicate the site you're using and all its functions.

                    Either that or some kind of graphic artist / video guy / programmer who could change every single number frame by frame.

                    I just don't believe that anyone could or would realistically do that. The cost, effort and expense would be phenomenal.
                    David, no offense intended, but I'm assuming you don't know much about making videos. You can do a walkthrough of any site you want, then open the video in a video editor and superimpose a faked graphic of earnings over the real earnings. There's no need to pause the video, zoom in, or anything else. The viewers would never know the difference. I'm not very experienced at making videos but even I could do that - it's basic stuff with good software.

                    No blackhat software is needed because you don't have to duplicate the site, you can actually use the real site. No graphics artist is needed. You don't have to change every frame, you only set a start and end frame for the superimposed graphics. If you have the video editing software it would cost you absolutlely nothing to do it, and take about 10 mnutes extra time.

                    And before anyone ask how to do it or what software to use, don't bother, I won't tell you. If I made income claims I wouldn't say this much because those who don't know me would suspect I do that, but I don't make income claims so I don't have to worry about that.

                    Originally Posted by tagalog View Post

                    Surely setting up some third party veirfication organisation could be done by someone with the know how? The scammers would s*** themselves if only sales pages with the verified accounts were purchased from.

                    But - before someone says it - even that could be faked.

                    Many people shout about how many millionaires the Internet has made, but few shout loudly about how many scammers have been made milionnairs through the Internet.

                    Again I say, Buyer Beware.
                    Anything can be faked because corruption exists. However, what I was referring to when I mentioned third party verification was having an existing authority verify the claim. A respected judge, law enforcement officer, notary public or someone similar. If you found someone who was willing to field phone calls to verify their findings, that would be an added layer of proof.

                    As I said before though, proof of income doesn't really mean a lot anyway. Just because Joe Marketer can make X amount of dollars using his method doesn't mean anyone else can duplicate it. Joe has unique experiences, thought processes, decision making processes, reasoning skills, and other factors that contribute to his success that others may not have.

                    A "system or method" is just a system or method, the success or failure of using that method always comes down to individual understanding, effort, persistence, adaptability, and mindset.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      The fallacy is that even if the screen shots are real, there is absolutely no proof that you will earn the same money (or any money) with the methods being sold.
      Very true, however it is nice to know the person you are dealing with has had success with what he/she is asking you to try.

      In my spare time, which is not much, I teach young kids hitting lessons to better their baseball skills. I have way, way more kids wanting lessons than I could possibly ever get too.

      Why? Because I was an All-American baseball player and still hold records at the school I went to in college.

      Do I expect most or even anyone of these kids to duplicate that success? While I hope they do, I know probably none of them will.
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        LOL, no, I am not.......good one!!
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      • Profile picture of the author David DeAndre
        Personally, I don't think there's any one single way to convince sceptics that your income proof is real, even if it is. Some people will ALWAYS come up with a "reason" as to why your proof is fake, even if it isn't.

        That said ...

        What 99.9% of people would find almost impossible to argue with is a huge mix of very-very-very-hard-to-fake proof elements:

        -A complete video walk through of your Clickbank / PayPal account, showing EXACTLY where your income is coming from (which products/merchants etc);

        -A video walk through of your income statements, tax returns, 1099 K etc to back up the previous video, and if you're a big earner, a walk through of your CPA audits;

        -A live video walk through of your actual bank account, so people can see that the deposits are actually coming from Clickbank, PayPal, or whoever your merchant processor is;

        -A "day in the life" / "lifestyle documentary" video where you show people how you live your life: your home, your cars, where you eat, the kind of people you hang out with, the kind of stuff you do, etc;

        -A "vacation" documentary video where you film a vacation you take;

        -A video walk through of some of your biggest traffic campaigns, so people can see some of your biggest media and PPC buys, how profitable they were;

        -A video walk through of your Google Analytics account, so people can see the real time stats on your site: time on site, conversion rate, bounce rate, number of visitors, number of new visitors, number of repeat visitors etc;

        -I would also get some of the well known industry players to vouch for me, people who are the real deal, whatever the niche is.

        Again, some people will always be sceptical, but if you include most or all of the above, I think most people would have a very tough time arguing with you. I'm planning on using all the above proof elements in my launch.
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        • Profile picture of the author brseminars
          Originally Posted by David DeAndre View Post

          Personally, I don't think there's any one single way to convince sceptics that your income proof is real, even if it is. Some people will ALWAYS come up with a "reason" as to why your proof is fake, even if it isn't.

          That said ...

          What 99.9% of people would find almost impossible to argue with is a huge mix of very-very-very-hard-to-fake proof elements:

          -A complete video walk through of your Clickbank / PayPal account, showing EXACTLY where your income is coming from (which products/merchants etc);

          -A video walk through of your income statements, tax returns, 1099 K etc to back up the previous video, and if you're a big earner, a walk through of your CPA audits;

          -A live video walk through of your actual bank account, so people can see that the deposits are actually coming from Clickbank, PayPal, or whoever your merchant processor is;

          -A "day in the life" / "lifestyle documentary" video where you show people how you live your life: your home, your cars, where you eat, the kind of people you hang out with, the kind of stuff you do, etc;

          -A "vacation" documentary video where you film a vacation you take;

          -A video walk through of some of your biggest traffic campaigns, so people can see some of your biggest media and PPC buys, how profitable they were;

          -A video walk through of your Google Analytics account, so people can see the real time stats on your site: time on site, conversion rate, bounce rate, number of visitors, number of new visitors, number of repeat visitors etc;

          -I would also get some of the well known industry players to vouch for me, people who are the real deal, whatever the niche is.

          Again, some people will always be sceptical, but if you include most or all of the above, I think most people would have a very tough time arguing with you. I'm planning on using all the above proof elements in my launch.

          Awesome post!
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Kyle
    Hi BRS,

    Another big trap (assuming the screenshots are real) is that the earnings are from SELLING their system to Internet Marketers rather than actually USING it.

    More common than you might think.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gengis
    I never look at those screen shots. I read a bit and if their product catches my attention I keep reading but like I said I ignore the screenshots.

    I don't use them either. If people aren't compelled to buy with my copy it's my fault.
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    • Profile picture of the author robestrong
      Here's how I view the likelyhood of success if you powered through any one WSO.

      1. No proof, no reviews. 30% chance.
      2. No proof, reviews. 40% chance.
      3. Proof, reviews. 55% chance.
      4. Proof, claims of earnings (from buyers). 75% chance.
      5. Proof, 5 or more claims of earnings (from buyers). 95% chance.
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    • Profile picture of the author moreno
      i don't believe any of the paypal or othres account are real , never.
      Unfortunatly i see a lot of fake claim all day long.
      WSO become hard to believe , just wait a few days after the launch and you start to see a lot of controversial post , compare to the beginning where all the promoters ( affiliate) they line up to praise the product .
      It's a pity or it's a shame but anyway it's a jungle nowadayson the IM arena , cannot believe anyone no more ....that's the result , at least for me.:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Gilbert
    They are very very easily faked. That's why I always strive to use video proof and will never ever promote something with screenshots. It's just cheesy these days.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Stephen Gilbert View Post

      They are very very easily faked. That's why I always strive to use video proof and will never ever promote something with screenshots. It's just cheesy these days.
      And that is great, so the same applies, this isn't really about screenshots, it is about legitimate proof.

      So, with paypal, you can log into your account for example and instead of using all the searches, etc. go right to the Legal/Tax documents and show your results based on those.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagalog
    Personally, when I see screen shots of earnings, a red flag goes up and I skip past them.

    I am more interested in the seller's reputation and backup. As there is usually a refund guarantee, it is sometimes worth taking a risk.

    Scammers are growing like fungus on the Web and it is so difficult to believe anyone these days, unless you have had personal experience with the seller. For example, I trust Alex Safie and he never shows proof of earnings. He is just an honest guy.

    It is simply a case of 'Buyer Beware'.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by tagalog View Post


      I am more interested in the seller's reputation and backup.
      Yes and this brings up another point. I know a lot of people with great reputations on many forums and in many masterminds, etc. that can talk a big game but aren't making squat.

      I know someone who for years has been one of the most well respected members of a real estate related forum, yet had never actually made any significant amount of money and for the most part was giving advice/opinions on things that he read about, heard about, etc. but never actually did.

      When he would post ideas tons and tons of people would try them then come back with very dismal results or worse come back and say that they awesome ideas man, keep them up, without ever actually trying them, just because they wanted to be cool and associate with this guy on the forum and the cycle of bad information just kept spreading and spreading.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Lowenthal
    I think the strongest point to focus on with this subject is that fact that there some things that is real and some things that are obviously aren't.

    Go with your own instinct and do some due diligence. I don't just mean typing in buyer keywords like [business idea] review. We all know a strong affiliate selling avenue is targeting you when you want to know how well an idea worked. Then affiliate you all the way to bank.

    Find out what the program is and learn what makes something like that work. If all they can offer is "I made millions doing absolutely nothing while doing nothing and nothing ever had to be done!" Really?

    When you see an opportunity that is feasible it will be onbvously feasible but real business requires work. Sometimes money too. The trick is finding the money before the work.

    Happy New Year everyone!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    @David DeAndre

    Most of the "video proof" you cite could be faked with just a little planning. A couple things would take some planning and time, but could also be faked.

    Remember, video can be edited right down to the individual frames, making anything possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author David DeAndre
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      @David DeAndre

      Most of the "video proof" you cite could be faked with just a little planning. A couple things would take some planning and time, but could also be faked.

      Remember, video can be edited right down to the individual frames, making anything possible.
      I doubt it.

      Some people say it's possible to fake a live video walk through of a Clickbank, PayPal, Google Analytics, real bank account etc. I say that's 100% BS. Is it possible? Yes. Could someone realistically do it? No way.

      I have seen people who pause their videos halfway through, then un-pause them on the page they want people to see ... that's an obvious scam. But I have never, ever seen or heard of a live, from-start-to-finish video walk through that has been altered, and I'd challenge you to show me an example to prove otherwise.

      If you did the whole thing from start to finish without pausing, you would need some seriously expensive blackhat software to duplicate the site you're using and all its functions.

      Either that or some kind of graphic artist / video guy / programmer who could change every single number frame by frame.

      I just don't believe that anyone could or would realistically do that. The cost, effort and expense would be phenomenal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Falzone
    I wouldn't risk getting jailed only for showing people incomes I hadn't make.

    Firstly I would be such a liar and I won't be correct in front of myself and as well with my clients.

    Secondly.... why would I have to risk my freedom only for kidding people who are willing to learn things without getting screwed?

    Instead I think it's better showing screenshot with a bit lower digits, but that are REAL ones that you are making for real, so that if someone takes me at court I'll be able to show that I am not such a liar but an honest one.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Zack93 View Post


      Instead I think it's better showing screenshot with a bit lower digits, but that are REAL ones that you are making for real, so that if someone takes me at court I'll be able to show that I am not such a liar but an honest one.
      Very nice post!
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        And it's not just about downright faking, it's also about misleading
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  • Profile picture of the author brseminars
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Does a guy making $200,000 communicate better than a guy making $20,000?

    I see no proof of that.

    Besides, if he made the 200k bilking newbies out of their cash, he shouldn't be taken seriously anyway.

    How to Make Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars Lying to the Gullible


    Any fool can do that.

    Many do.
    Not necessarily, but it is not about how much, it is selling based on accuracy and completeness and full disclosure.

    If you make 20K and you decide to use that as a part of your sales process, prove it completely, otherwise don't use it at all.

    Same if you make 200K or 2 million.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Falzone
      Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

      Not necessarily, but it is not about how much, it is selling based on accuracy and completeness and full disclosure.

      If you make 20K and you decide to use that as a part of your sales process, prove it completely, otherwise don't use it at all.

      Same if you make 200K or 2 million.
      By being honest, for example I haven't done 2 million dollars yet, but of course if the price to get such a digit were scamming people by creating a stupid and useless product that teaches them NOTHING, I just prefer DO NOT taking their hardly earned money the bad way, and working hard on another one that makes happy my client, since clients worth more than money and long term business is the key
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

      Not necessarily, but it is not about how much, it is selling based on accuracy and completeness and full disclosure.

      If you make 20K and you decide to use that as a part of your sales process, prove it completely, otherwise don't use it at all.

      Same if you make 200K or 2 million.
      I'm with you there. I applaud the FTC for their efforts in weeding out claims without proof.
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  • Profile picture of the author brseminars
    I also know someone, a personal friend of mine who i heard publicly state they were making 60K per year promoting a certain product/company.

    I didn't say anything in public to embarrass him but when we were alone I asked him if he was really making that much with this particular company and he insisted he was. And because this is a subject of interest to me, I prodded him even further and asked him to show me.

    He became upset, but agreed.

    He showed me his actual account with this company and sure enough, he had a big month for this income stream of his, he did around $6,700.

    I asked him how he came up with 60K per year and he said well, the compounded yearly income would be around 60K, actually more by the end of the year.

    And that it was, if, a big if, he could keep up the same pace, which he did not.

    Why not just say I made $6,700 in July promoting this product and leave it at that? 100% accurate, 100% provable, not misleading in any way.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Paul Gram View Post

      I wouldn't (and don't) trust anyone's screenshots or income claims...ever.
      Kind of hard to argue with a 1099K along with a track record that you can easily find by doing a few Google searches though, wouldn't you say? or not?
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      • Profile picture of the author brseminars
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Any reasonably competent con man with a basic knowledge of SEO could accomplish that in 2 months.
        Ok, fair enough, but that is a pretty far reach and have you actually seen this done?

        Someone faking a 1099K legal government document and spending months to accomplish this via SEO? I'm sure it can and has been done, but I haven't seen it.

        I have never even seen a product launch here or in other places that I know of using a real, legal document such as a 1099K regardless of it was fake or not to make an income claim for the launch. I have, however, seen tons and tons of screenshots, snippets, etc. all used many, many times, which is why I am researching this topic a bit.
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        • Profile picture of the author brseminars
          I know the answer to this is don't make income claims and I fully understand that, but I have been around quite a while and it seems income claims have become the overwhelming norm and in large part, the basis for a good percentage of launches whether on a large or small scale.
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        • Profile picture of the author brseminars
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          It's not at all unusual for product launches to be planned months in advance. If it hasn't been used, you can bet it soon will be.

          I can see the next WSO. How to be a Respected Guru in 60 Days.
          So you believe people will use "fake" 1099K and Legal Government documents to prove income claims for product launches? You really believe that?

          First, they will be caught immediately and prosecuted immediately as anyone can forwarded it to the governing authority and all they have to do is run it through the database, this is their job. This is a whole different ball game than faking some screenshots which is much harder to gather proof and evidence for a governing authority.

          Now, if they are using real documents, I think that is great!!!! And I applaud anyone who does!
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          • Profile picture of the author brseminars
            Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

            So you believe people will use "fake" 1099K and Legal Government documents to prove income claims for product launches? You really believe that?
            I know people will of course and have in the past probably done this, but I am speaking in terms of the norm, like here at Warriors for example as a WSO or product launch.
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          • Profile picture of the author brseminars
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            No, they wouldn't. You think the government is much more efficient than it is. Enough complaints have to be made to warrant an investigation. A federal prosecutor has to see some kind of merit in the case. A grand jury has to be convened. The perpetrator has to be found. That's just for starters.

            Even getting the FTC to shut down a site is difficult. How long do you think it would take for the FTC to get the IRS to verify a 1099?

            After the FTC shuts down a site, another from the same people will pop up.

            Crooks don't care about regulations. If they did, they wouldn't be crooks.
            Yes, they would and no a grand jury does not have to be convened unless they are being accused of making false income claims. However, what we are talking about here is falsifying a government document, which is a different crime altogether and has nothing to do with the income claim, if any.
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            • Profile picture of the author brseminars
              And the penalty is even steeper if it is someone else's document you are falsifying. In addition, it is even against the law, a federal offense, to even use a document that resembles a federal document.

              We aren't talking proving an income claim here, we are talking about falsifying legal documents.

              The interesting thing here is it could be a great weapon to help cut down on the underlying issue we are talking about here, which is in fact, proving any income claim made.
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            • Profile picture of the author brseminars
              Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

              What, falsifying a federal document is not a federal crime? Try to get the FBI interested in a fake 1099 on a WSO. Good luck.

              If the FBI saw a WSO offer posted tomorrow, and we are just using WSO as an example with a 1099K claiming to have made say 400K.

              And they ran that document through their database and saw that that document had been falsified in any way, do you think they would be interested in that?

              There is a reason you don't see many if any people using actual government documents such as 1099K's to show their income.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      I mean at a very minimum if you did a product launch in March 2012 you should be able to show at least your 1099K for March 2012 and a video logging in showing the sales. That would make an income claim pretty legitimate to me on a high profile launch.

      If you can only show total sales and not actual income, you may be a good networker, you may have a bunch of friends who will promote for you, you may be popular, but you still didn't make any money or at least the money you claimed.

      If you have multiple income streams as mentioned above as a way around this in that payment processor then the 1099K will show a higher amount than the amount you are claiming and adds even more legitimacy to you and your launch.

      That is, if you are going to use income claims at all.

      Imagine if this were required on any launch that makes an income claim, would that change anything?
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  • Profile picture of the author Corey Geer
    What? I thought I replied to this thread but the post is now missing...

    Fine, i'll leave out the tutorial on how they're faking earnings...

    But no, to answer your question, the majority of screenshots are fake.
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by Corey Geer View Post

      What? I thought I replied to this thread but the post is now missing...

      Fine, i'll leave out the tutorial on how they're faking earnings...

      But no, to answer your question, the majority of screenshots are fake.
      Corey, would love to see the tutorial.

      Also, have you seen any actual 1099K's or legal government documents faked as a part of a launch or sales process that you know of?

      I know it is easy to fake screenshots/videos and even easier to use these to mislead, but I am curious if you have seen it done on any 1099K or legal government document.
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      • Profile picture of the author Corey Geer
        Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

        Corey, would love to see the tutorial.

        Also, have you seen any actual 1099K's or legal government documents faked as a part of a launch or sales process that you know of?

        I know it is easy to fake screenshots/videos and even easier to use these to mislead, but I am curious if you have seen it done on any 1099K or legal government document.
        I haven't seen people upload or show off their legal documentation.

        I'll just tell you that it's not done with Photoshop. It got deleted the first time for some reason so I won't post the tutorial again, even though it's common knowledge.
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      • Profile picture of the author TerranceCharles
        It's a cut-throat business and I've seen it all, you can count that a lot of it is real, but take into consideration that we are in the business of selling and perceived value, so for some - whatever it takes to sell you'll see it happen - especially with product launches.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by brseminars View Post


    Yes, you can still photoshop this but it would be harder and it would be a federal offense (forging a government document is automatic jail time) and much more risky.
    Forging a government document is automatic jail time? Since when?
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Forging a government document is automatic jail time? Since when?
      Yes, I definitely mis-stated that, you of course have the right to due process.

      This really wasn't meant to be a legal discussion at all, I was just curious why if everyone is making income claims using all these screenshots, etc. why not make them using the real documents? That is the question I can't seem to find.
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

        Yes, I definitely mis-stated that, you of course have the right to due process.

        This really wasn't meant to be a legal discussion at all, I was just curious why if everyone is making income claims using all these screenshots, etc. why not make them using the real documents? That is the question I can't seem to find.
        Dude, there are much more important things in business than worrying about BS earnings screenshots. It shouldn't take up more than a few seconds of your consideration. Forget it and get on with business.
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        • Profile picture of the author brseminars
          Dude, I am doing research for an article and am genuinely interested in this subject and others have asked me the same question many times so I am trying to get the correct information.

          I can assure you I am neither "worried" about it nor do I have a problem getting on with business which is exactly what I am doing.

          It is a very legitimate question here:

          Why do people use screenshots/vidoes, etc. to prove income claims when they can just as easily use the "real" document which provides more accountability that it is the truth, especially within the last two years when the government at least here in the U.S. now requires our merchant processors to send in the actual income to them?

          That is a legitimate question and one that I think warrants discussion and I do know many people are in fact interested in this.
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          • Profile picture of the author brseminars
            If you do 200K for example through PayPal for example, as of 2011, PayPal now must report that income to the government. That is your legitimate income, no BS, no screenshots, that is what you made. Why not use that when making income claims?
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          • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
            Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

            Dude, I am doing research for an article and am genuinely interested in this subject and others have asked me the same question many times so I am trying to get the correct information.

            I can assure you I am neither "worried" about it nor do I have a problem getting on with business which is exactly what I am doing.

            It is a very legitimate question here:

            Why do people use screenshots/vidoes, etc. to prove income claims when they can just as easily use the "real" document which provides more accountability that it is the truth, especially within the last two years when the government at least here in the U.S. now requires our merchant processors to send in the actual income to them?

            That is a legitimate question and one that I think warrants discussion and I do know many people are in fact interested in this.
            Okay, knock yourself out. Maybe you should have done a search on the topic. There must be a couple hundred threads on this silly crap.
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            • Profile picture of the author brseminars
              Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

              Okay, knock yourself out. Maybe you should have done a search on the topic. There must be a couple hundred threads on this silly crap.
              Whatever man, move on if it is silly to you.

              I have done searches on it, many of them. I am very interested in what those here think of this and based on my research a lot of people are very interested in this.

              And I haven't really been able to find anything here about this specific topic, especially with the merchant processor law changes that happened in 2011
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              • Profile picture of the author brseminars
                By the way, anyone interested in this topic, here is the actual question that was posted here which in reality has nothing to do with 'if" it is possible or 'if" people alter screenshots, etc. we all know it's possible when making income claims:

                The question is:

                With the new law that came down, particularly in the U.S. where merchant companies such as PayPal, Authorize.net are now required to report your earnings of over 20K to the government, why aren't people just posting their 1099 K at least in the U.S. to show the money they are claiming to make?
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                • Profile picture of the author brseminars
                  To very simply illustrate the point, why can't people do this for a start, this is just a very quick screen capture video I created showing what PayPal does to comply with the new law that came down in 2010 and went into effect Jan. 2011.

                  Check it out and let me know your thoughts on why more people aren't using the actual legal documents to prove income claims?

                  Here is the video, sorry I don't do screencasts very often:

                  2013-01-01_1802
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                • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
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                  • Profile picture of the author brseminars
                    Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

                    That would be ok to illustrate your overall combined income with a particular payment processor, but how would that relate to a single product launch.

                    In my opinion, it's best to not show any income proof, sure you may lose some sales but you also won't be accused of faking screenshots.

                    If your copy is exceptional by explaining the benefits and hammer the triggers, you don't need proof of income.
                    Yes, I agree, no income claims may be best, but I am willing to bet almost every copywriter in the world would choose being able to back up anything with actual dollars rather than just copy, given the option and everything else being equal.

                    In terms of individual sales, it is already broken down by month so all you have to do is show the dates while in the account for which you did the launch or made the money you are using in an income claim followed by the actual 1099K document. There is also another link there that breaks down the individual sales on the 1099K.

                    There are some other ways, I just pulled this up off the top of my head.

                    With this information readily available the question is why aren't more people using it?
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                    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
                      Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

                      That would be ok to illustrate your overall combined income with a particular payment processor, but how would that relate to a single product launch.
                      Combined income if it is more than the launch actually may be more powerful than not using combined income when used in conjunction with the actual individual sales.

                      So, you did a launch in say March and made 15K for example.

                      You show your 1099K docs if it was in the previous year or the ongoing 1099K reconciliation report if it is in the current year.

                      and the combine income shows: $19,300

                      That's perfectly ok, just shows you made money on something other than the launch which actually lends your more credibility, I would think.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                      Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

                      With this information readily available the question is why aren't more people using it?
                      I would say because getting a 1099 from PayPal is so recent that people just hadn't thought of it. Many may be like me - I wasn't aware of this monthly 1099 breakdown until you mentioned it and I went and searched through my PayPal reports.

                      Now that I've seen that, I understand where you're coming from although I'm not really sure they'd be any more convincing. They're just as liable to be faked as any other 'proof' shown online - even videos can be edited.

                      I know you keep saying it's illegal to fake a government document, but I don't believe that applies to an image of a document and I don't think it's considered a government document at all since the government does not give it to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    I noticed it the other way. Most people don't buy into lame income shots anymore. Sure you can put some in there, but there is no need. Far less refunds when you don't make those claims and simply sell a system not ridiculous screen shots. Why would anyone need 100k in their Paypal acct
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    • Profile picture of the author brseminars
      Originally Posted by bilkat19 View Post

      I noticed it the other way. Most people don't buy into lame income shots anymore. Sure you can put some in there, but there is no need. Far less refunds when you don't make those claims and simply sell a system not ridiculous screen shots. Why would anyone need 100k in their Paypal acct
      Yes, Bill, I agree.

      Question....If given all the same factors, everything is exactly the same in the copy but one makes a claim that the author made say 15K using the system

      and the other had no income claims, which do you think would have a higher response rate?
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  • Profile picture of the author Maui Joe
    who needs photoshop when there's firebug
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  • Profile picture of the author Shane N
    Hey there,

    I actually put a screenshot of my 1099k to show my earnings in one of my coaching threads last year. Of course, it was real.

    And you know what? It didn't change my conversions at all.

    So I took it down.

    Whether it was faked or not (it most certainly was NOT), it still didn't affect my conversion rate, so I figured, before someone steals it and starts using it as their own earnings claims, I might as well remove it. And that's what I did.

    It was a neat experiment I guess but it didn't prove to be as fruitful as I had thought.

    Best,
    Shane
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
      Originally Posted by Shane Natan View Post

      Hey there,

      I actually put a screenshot of my 1099k to show my earnings in one of my coaching threads last year. Of course, it was real.

      And you know what? It didn't change my conversions at all.

      So I took it down.

      Whether it was faked or not (it most certainly was NOT), it still didn't affect my conversion rate, so I figured, before someone steals it and starts using it as their own earnings claims, I might as well remove it. And that's what I did.

      It was a neat experiment I guess but it didn't prove to be as fruitful as I had thought.

      Best,
      Shane
      Yep, sometimes it can have a negative effect. Last year I posted a screenshot of a million dollar bank account in a sales video and it didn't convert well. People have to envision themselves succeeding with your product. If they can't see themselves doing what you did, it doesn't matter how much you made.
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  • Profile picture of the author tagalog
    Personally, seeing so-called proof of earnings leaves me cold. I know it can be easily faked but even if I know the vendor to be honest, I skip through the screen shots.

    Why?, because having a little common sense, I know that no matter what I do, I will never be able to do it as well as the so-called expert who designed a program for himself, not for me. I also know that if these guys are earning fortunes, they would have no need to flog their software/courses.

    I smile when I read, "...I want to give something back for being blessed ......." If a guru wants to give something back, give it free. That's real charity!

    And please, don't get back at me saying something free is not appreciated. I would be more than happy to have every money-making secret that works given to me free - wouldn't you?

    To all Gurus - please feel free to PM me with the download links, but only for the software/programs/courses that actually work:-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by tagalog View Post

      Why?, because having a little common sense, I know that no matter what I do, I will never be able to do it as well as the so-called expert who designed a program for himself, not for me. I also know that if these guys are earning fortunes, they would have no need to flog their software/courses.

      I smile when I read, "...I want to give something back for being blessed ......." If a guru wants to give something back, give it free. That's real charity!

      And please, don't get back at me saying something free is not appreciated. I would be more than happy to have every money-making secret that works given to me free - wouldn't you?

      To all Gurus - please feel free to PM me with the download links, but only for the software/programs/courses that actually work:-)
      This is going to sound harsh, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.

      First, just because they sell a product containing a method or system, doesn't mean that they aren't still making money with that system. What is wrong with making even more money by teaching others how to do it, as well? Any good system will be duplicatable and shouldn't interfere with the originator continuing to use it.

      The only time this wouldn't be the case is with people selling 'loophole' products. That is a stupid move since as soon as word gets out on a loophole, they usually get closed down.

      Second point you make is that it's not charity if it's not free. When someone says they want to give something back, what rule is there that says they must do so without charging? I find the only people who ever say this are those who aren't making enough money themselves.

      That attitude is the same one that makes some people bash rich people - it's called sour grapes.

      And third, you say you'd value something just as much if given it free of charge. That might be true for you (although it's doubtful), but it's been proven over and over again that it is simply not true for the majority.

      How many free reports or products have you downloaded and then never read or acted on? For the majority of people, it's a lot. Heck, most people have PAID products sitting on their hard drive that they've never even opened.

      Proof of this last principle of human nature surrounds you. How many people on this forum are not making any money or not enough to actually mean anything? Why?

      There is enough information on this forum for just about any online business model, that anyone who wished to do so, could build an online business and make money. I'm talking free information, not WSOs.

      The only problem is that people are sitting around, waiting for a push-button solution so they don't actually have to think or do anything for themselves. Push the button; cash falls out of the PC.

      Not one forum member has any excuses when it comes to knowing what to do. It's all laid out for you - years and years worth of tips, tricks and methods. You have to look for it and put it together, but it's there.

      Attitude is a big part of success. I guarantee your attitude is holding you back from achieving the level of success that you could attain.
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  • Profile picture of the author napoleonfirst
    It is very easy for anyone to use Photoshop to create a screen shot of Paypal earnings. My suggestion is that if you are going to buy a site require a video in real time of the earnings. I think there is a software out there that allows you to see share screens or something like that.

    Buyers of site need to do their due diligence before buying a site and use the tools and flippa proides along with reading the posts on Flippa about purchasing sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    PayPal and Income screenshots, are they real?
    Unless it's a screenshot of your own paypal, what does it matter? Just because someone else is knocking it down using a specific method doesn't guarantee it's going to work for you. Decide on the program - not the results of others.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author rockong
    if you're looking to buy a website based on paypal earnings, I would ask them to hop on a live video session. Can't lie about that

    If it is because you're considering buying a product, well then, I would be very careful ahaha
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  • I remember awhile back there was a popular WSO that had a fake click bank earnings image.
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  • Profile picture of the author TEC
    Originally Posted by brseminars View Post

    Since being back on The WF after a fairly long hiatus, I have noticed so many people selling based on screenshots from PP, etc.

    While I would hope people aren't making these up or altering them, I am not that Nieve to think it isn't happening.

    However, the question I have is with the new law that came down, particularly in the U.S. where merchant companies such as PayPal, Authorize.net are now required to report your earnings of over 20K to the government, why aren't people just posting their 1099 K at least in the U.S. to show the money they are claiming to make?

    Yes, you can still photoshop this but it would be harder and it would be a federal offense (forging a government document is automatic jail time) and much more risky.

    This form shows the true picture of the income you actually receive so why aren't people showing us this instead of some photoshop shots.
    It's very easy to edit any ClickBank or Paypal numbers. I just saw a video of how it's done. It's so easy, but makes me sick because I know that A LOT of Internet Marketers use this method.

    When ever I see a sales page that shows ClickBank or paypal earnings, I just move on
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  • Profile picture of the author manicmethods
    I actually think that some people take screenshots from their Paypal accounts of previous launches so they have a successful launch, take a screenshot and then make up some BS method and because they have Paypal screenshots, that sells well so they have MORE screenshots and so on... Big cycle of BS screenshots.

    The screenshots MIGHT be real BUT the screenshots, I doubt, are from the system being sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author benzwm02
    Showing your tax returns proves nothing about where exactly the money came from.
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    obama should have hired the income screenshot enhancers to do his birth certificate and draft registration!
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    In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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