Then or Than? Is it the same for you?

11 years ago

No, I believe it's incorrect in any English speaking country. I see it as just another example of failing teaching methods. I once had a long discussion with an 8th grade English teacher from San Jose, California.

She told me she has been taught not to mark spelling and grammatical errors in her students' work because, by doing so, she would "dishearten and discourage" then.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

I see it so much that I'm wondering if in some countries it's a legitimate use of the word.

I really don't think so, Andy. I always look at this one as more a "typo" than a grammatical error, because it somehow seems too badly mistaken to be just a grammatical error? I see what you mean, though.

They're both commonly typed words, and the "a" and "e" are close enough together on the keyboard for it to be one of those mistakes caused by "fingers knowing their own way", perhaps?

These things interest me.

There seem to be various different categories/classifications of these errors, in different languages.

One which always amuses me a little is when people say "would of", meaning "would have".

That one also comes across as a "grammatical error", and I suppose it is, in a sense, but I'm pretty sure it's really caused their having misunderstood others saying something like "would've", and simply not knowing of which words it's an elision?

Originally Posted by AnniePot

I once had a long discussion with an 8th grade English teacher from San Jose, California.

She told me she has been taught not to mark spelling and grammatical errors in her students' work because, by doing so, she would "dishearten and discourage" then.

It's the same here, Anne!

I know a surgeon at the hospital here, whose young daughter goes to quite a posh little private primary/preparatory school, where (at "parents' evening") the English teacher confided in him that they're strongly discouraged from correcting spelling and grammar, in the children's homework, because it "inhibits their creativity".

It's absolutely appalling. Parents are paying all those school fees, and their children don't know the difference between "their", "there" and "they're", unless they teach them at home.

I know my parents would have had a fit, and removed me from the school!

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Christopher Fox

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I really don't think so, Andy. I always look at this one as more a "typo" than a grammatical error, because it somehow seems too badly mistaken to be just a grammatical error? I see what you mean, though.

They're both commonly typed words, and the "a" and "e" are close enough together on the keyboard for it to be one of those mistakes caused by "fingers knowing their own way", perhaps?

Unfortunately, I'm afraid it is less of a typo than you might suspect. Grammar is a bit of an afterthought in the US public education system. I spent most of my time having grammar beat into me by Catholic nuns, but rebelled the last couple years of high school and went to a public school that was recognized as being one of the better schools, academically, across the nation. At that 'noted' public school, I took an elective as a senior. An advanced course. In that class, seniors in high school in an advanced course were being introduced, for the first time, to elements of grammar that I had mastered in the fifth grade.

That was shocking to me. Seniors in high school taking an advanced English/Grammar class being exposed to things for the first time that I had learned in grade school. When I was 10/11 years old.

Take your average high school graduate here and ask them to diagram a sentence and you'll most likely receive a blank stare. Not because they are having problems figuring out the gerunds and dangling past participles, but they don't even know what it means to diagram a sentence, even a simple sentence like, "Christopher typed this post".

Lot 'o typos to explain the misuse of than/then, to be sure, but I'm afraid a big part of the than/then misuse is a simple lack of knowledge of the difference.

Affect and effect are two more that I see misused frequently.

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Sandra Martinez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

It's the same here, Anne!

I know a surgeon at the hospital here, whose young daughter goes to quite a posh little private primary/preparatory school, where (at "parents' evening") the English teacher confided in him that they're strongly discouraged from correcting spelling and grammar, in the children's homework, because it "inhibits their creativity".

It's absolutely appalling. Parents are paying all those school fees, and their children don't know the difference between "their", "there" and "they're", unless they teach them at home.

I know my parents would have had a fit, and removed me from the school!

Those orders come down from the United Nations, believe or not... and they are spreading all over the place, even third world countries... how grand! :rolleyes:

We have a lil bit of a pragmatic view about stupid rules in my country, as they are so many... when the teacher told us about this one, we just tacitly agreed to do the corrections at home.

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Mkcoy

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by AnniePot

I once had a long discussion with an 8th grade English teacher from San Jose, California.

She told me she has been taught not to mark spelling and grammatical errors in her students' work because, by doing so, she would "dishearten and discourage" then.

Someone needs to give that person a slap and tell them to shut up.

Dishearten and discourage them from what? Becoming good spellers?

Ridiculous!

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IMWarlock

11 years ago

Like mentioned it is grammatical error in any kind of English language. I'm not native English speaker but I find those grammatical errors to be very annoying because a lot of native English speakers tend to do those mistakes. In particular, a lot of people cannot distinguish "then" and "than", "their" and "they're", "your" and "you're". It is especially annoying when reputable marketers do these mistakes and then defend themselves by saying it looks more natural and more friendly to prospects.... seriously?

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mariyajames

11 years ago

Hi Please make it correct that whenever you compare two things, on that time you must use "than"

for eg:- my prices are cheaper than company x

When I will reach there, then you can go.

I think these two examples are sufficient to make a difference between than and then.

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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Wow - ok, that's actually a surprise to me. I was sure that because it's so common that I must have just been ignorant of the fact that it's correct grammar somewhere else.

IMWarlock - yes those are examples of a similar thing which I've also noticed. I find them annoying but was convinced that it must be my comprehension that's the problem rather than that so many people just use completely the wrong word when typing these things.

Like Alexa said - it make the sentence complete gibberish sometimes and changes the meaning completely, so why would people do it?

I had not considered that they just don't know any better because it's not like any schools teach spelling like this, but with the comments so far about school marking - I'm a little shocked to hear that to be honest.

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Jeff Falzone

11 years ago

Believe in me guys, I thought it too! I have seen people writing than where it has to have then, that I thought, am I wrong?!?!?

Instead its conclusion is that there are as many people badly taught, that now most of them don't take care about this difference but it looks like who is OK with grammar might be wrong lol

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seriousjake

11 years ago

What really grinds my nerves these days is the sudden explosion of people using 'of' instead of 'have'.

Eg: "Dude, we should of gone cow-tipping last night."

WHO STARTED THIS.

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KirkMcD

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seriousjake

What really grinds my nerves these days is the sudden explosion of people using 'of' instead of 'have'.

Eg: "Dude, we should of gone cow-tipping last night."

It seems like people are spelling "should've/ would've" based on the way it sounds and not the way it is spelled.

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Mike T 11 years ago

I find that the words 'complementary' and 'complimentary' are used incorrectly more often than they are used correctly, and not just online. A couple of years ago I went into B and Q (the biggest DIY chain in the UK), a huge banner informed customers that they could get complimentary border tiles. I was in the market for tiles for my bathroom. Needless to say at the checkout I was charged for the border tiles which I wanted along with a significant (several hundred pounds worth) number of larger tiles. When I pointed out the sign saying the border tiles were free not one of the staff, including the store manager, understood the misuse of the word 'complimentary'. I did not go through with the purchase, the banner remained up for weeks, and I noticed the same wording in other branches.

With regard to the points made above about the correction of spelling and grammar in UK schools : I am a teacher (of science, not English) in an English state school. I know this is a generalisation, but management, or the 'leadership team' as many like to call themselves nowadays, frequently impose ridiculous rules on teaching staff, and incredibly these can include not correcting spelling or grammar. The latest missive we had from above forbade us from using red ink to mark, as it stood out from the pupils' own work and could damage their self esteem! travlinguy, you are not far off the mark! To be quite honest, as an experienced teacher and a self-confident individual I ignore such rubbish and get no comeback, but I know that many staff do get pulled up about it.

Last term on our so-called 'training' days, we had a couple of sessions on teaching literacy from a 'consultant' who is being paid several thousand pounds for, in total, about four days of work. The first two of the inevitable powerpoint slides contained grammatical errors, and in a session that was about the use of apostrophes there was a slide and associated handout with blatant misuse of apostrophes (not deliberate) on it. You couldn't make it up!

Personally I do find spelling and grammatical errors annoying, obvious typing mistakes less so, but I do believe that all marketers (and others) should review their work, or perhaps even better, get a friend to review their work, before and soon after it is uploaded to the web. This would help give sites a more professional look.
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Andyhenry

11 years ago

I'm glad it's not just me then

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Mkcoy

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

I'm glad it's not just me then

It's not just you them.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mkcoy

Someone needs to give that person a slap and tell them to shut up.

I instinctively agree, but I think perhaps part of the problem here is that "education policy" is sometimes driven by "ideological" considerations, and the teachers (some of whom know better, really) are just doing their best at coping, within a ludicrously misguided system.

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Mkcoy

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I instinctively agree, but I think perhaps part of the problem here is that "education policy" is sometimes driven by "ideological" considerations, and the teachers (some of whom know better, really) are just doing their best at coping, within a ludicrously misguided system.

Thank you. A sensible explanation. Now all I need is their address.... :rolleyes:

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Mkcoy

Banned 11 years ago

My worst word pet peeve is how people misspell the word there or their and use their instead of there.

Such as, "They are theres"

NO! Don't do it! It makes you look like you failed to learn at school.

It's - They are theirs.

There is a difference to there (as in; over there) and theirs (as in; it is theirs).

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Chips Fletcher

11 years ago

I agree that teachers are being told not to mark down spelling - especially in the UK. I think it is horrendous. My kids have been told that because they use the PC so much, they can always correct with a spell-checker.
Whatever happened to decent teaching of our language?

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Andyhenry 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Chips Fletcher

My kids have been told that because they use the PC so much, they can always correct with a spell-checker.

But I thought the point of education was to teach them the correct way to spell?

The fact that you can get a computer to correct it if it's wrong is one thing - but not knowing that it is wrong - is a different thing completely.

I'm starting to wish I hadn't asked this now. This is very worrying. There are enough problems with the content kids get taught just because of political and financial bias in the content without getting the bread and butter job of spelling and syntax wrong too.
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funkynassau

11 years ago

To the OP, using then in that situation is wrong! Than is the correct word.

When I was a kid in school grammar and spelling were really emphasized and now it doesn't seem to be the case. My kids are young adults and they can spell correctly, but so many seem to have no idea of spelling and grammar. It makes me wonder what today's teachers are teaching them.

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Alex Barboza

11 years ago

To AnniePot and Alexa: I'm a teacher of English As A Second Language and I was also told at university that we shouldn't correct those errors in student's work. I disagree with that strongly. There are ways to correct without discouraging.

And I also find the use of then instead of than a little bit disgusting. How come a native English speaker makes such mistakes more often than me?

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AnniePot 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Barboza

And I also find the use of then instead of than a little bit disgusting. How come a native English speaker makes such mistakes more often than me?

My husband and I have remarked on quite a few occasions how, when interviewed on the tv, people for whom English is a second language, speak with far better sentence composition, flow and clarity than native English speakers.

Clearly they receive better teaching.
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onSubie

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Barboza

To AnniePot and Alexa: I'm a teacher of English As A Second Language and I was also told at university that we shouldn't correct those errors in student's work. I disagree with that strongly. There are ways to correct without discouraging.

And I also find the use of then instead of than a little bit disgusting. How come a native English speaker makes such mistakes more often than me?

A Canadian teacher in Edmonton was suspended and then fired for giving a "0" for work not handed in.

School policy was not to mark assignments that were not handed in. The idea is there are sociological problems that contributed to incomplete work and students shouldn't be punished.

He was dismissed for a history of insubordination.

Edmonton teacher fired over his no-zero stance on grading

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Mkcoy

Banned 11 years ago

What please someone answer my question!

What is it discouraging them against when you mark their spelling mistakes?

WHY EXACTLY shouldn't you correct (highlight) those errors?

Please someone answer me this question.

Surely that is the whole point in going to uni in the first place isn't it? To learn when you have done something right or wrong.

How you meant to know what's wrong if no one tells you?

It's INSANE!

I'm going to start a revolution here to sort out this political BS!

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Khemosabi

11 years ago

I too have a question, although it will sound like a gripe. :rolleyes:

Along the line's of Andyhenry's post, is it proper to spell a lot as alot? I always thought it was two words. I have been curious about this for some time, because it is a peeve of mine.

And...wait, there's more!.... Shoudn't it be "I'll bet" as opposed to "I bet"?

Thanks for your help in clearing this up for me!

~ Theresa

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IMWarlock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemosabi

I too have a question, although it will sound like a gripe. :rolleyes:

Along the line's of Andyhenry's post, is it proper to spell a lot as alot? I always thought it was two words. I have been curious about this for some time, because it is a peeve of mine.

And...wait, there's more!.... Shoudn't it be "I'll bet" as opposed to "I bet"?

Thanks for your help in clearing this up for me!

~ Theresa

The correct way is "a lot" as word "alot" does not even exist I think.

As for "I bet" and "I'll bet" are both correct ( if I'm not mistaken )

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Bewley

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemosabi

I too have a question, although it will sound like a gripe. :rolleyes:

Along the line's of Andyhenry's post, is it proper to spell a lot as alot? I always thought it was two words. I have been curious about this for some time, because it is a peeve of mine.

The correct usage is 'a lot'. 'alot' is not a word. 'Allot' is a valid word - to apportion, distribute etc.

Originally Posted by Khemosabi

And...wait, there's more!.... Shoudn't it be "I'll bet" as opposed to "I bet"?

'I'll' is the contraction of 'I will' or 'I shall'. 'I bet' is just bad grammar.

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Andyhenry 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Khemosabi

And...wait, there's more!.... Shoudn't it be "I'll bet" as opposed to "I bet"?

I think those are 2 different statements. One is a statement of future intention (as in "I would be prepared to bet" because I'll is the same as "I will" but without the other person consenting you don't have a bet) but "I bet" is a statement and doesn't require that anyone actually agreed to take the bet.

Perhaps?

If someone has already laid down the details of a bet then that would obviously affect whether they were accepting or offering a bet.
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DonnyBoy

11 years ago

For me its kinda slang language that mostly Americans use to speak.... But because this is a Forum where you are doing business so one have to write proper English over here and need to write according to the Grammar so that one look professional

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Khemosabi

11 years ago

Thanks to all who replied!

Ha! I just looked up "alright" in the dictionary. I was taught that it was two words, "all right". The dictionary reads that it is "a disputed spelling of all right".

And, thank you Andyhenry, for you're clearing up the "I bet" thingy! I should have added the "I'd bet" part too!

~ Theresa

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Gene Pimentel

11 years ago

We should create a new word "thean" to replace both others, and the reader can choose which applies to the context. Heh.

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Marhelper

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Is there a language where that is correct?

or

Is their a language where that is correct?

(See that all the time too)

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travlinguy

11 years ago

Politically Correct Rule # 47:

Correcting grammatical errors is an assault on an individual's self esteem and should be avoided at all costs. Even if the end result leaves the subject standing in the unemployment line with nothing in his thought bubble.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by AnniePot

My husband and I have remarked on quite a few occasions how, when interviewed on the tv, people for whom English is a second language, speak with far better sentence composition, flow and clarity than native English speakers.

Clearly they receive better teaching.

Annie, this works the other way as well. In speaking with people in other countries, they tell me that they can always tell who learned the language as a 'milk language' and who acquired it later. Those who acquired it later tended to be much more grammatically correct.

While we're on the subject, why the confusion over 'loser' (not a winner) and 'looser' (not as tight)?

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IMWarlock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

While we're on the subject, why the confusion over 'loser' (not a winner) and 'looser' (not as tight)?

because loser pronounced stronger so people just assume it's double o. Like in "google"

And on the subject I see these words also confused: "we're" and "were" as well as "were" and "where".
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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Who gives a grammatical sh** in the grand scheme of things.

I don't.

But you still felt the need to join in the thread and rage at one of the people who does give a crap.

Sure there are bigger problems in the world - we DO know that.

Your attitude is the only problem with your perspective. You seem to think that if you have a different perspective than someone else here you have to rage at them and tell them why you don't give a crap about their perspective, rather than just keep it to yourself.

Surely you don't think that because we're having a discussion about how language is used that we don't care about other issues which are more important?

There's a place for everything - and this forum is not a charity forum, or a global peace forum - it's a marketing forum, and whether you like it or not - using bad grammar and having spelling mistakes can have a negative effect on your results/income as a marketer - so in this context it DOES matter.

If you don't give a crap - please feel free to ignore this thread and go talk about something you do care about in a relevant forum.

I should know better than to open your posts, there was a reason I put you on my ignore list, but I keep forgetting and thinking you might be posting something useful/positive. Despite your apparent wish to do 'good' you seem to bring the negative stuff here.

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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Thanks.

Up to that point I actually thought you were alright.

Your Ava has written "Beware Straight Talker..."

Hello?...

Sorry - was that supposed to be a positive comment?

Maybe it was too much for me to hope that you might want to prove me wrong and come back with something positive.

I guess I'm just an old-fashioned optimist at heart.

By the wording of your sig area I guess you have things clouding your perspective right now so maybe it's too much to expect from you that you step up to a more positive place right now.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

As usual, most of the people wombatting are screwing up their grammar and adding to the mistake pool.

Some of y'all should be embarrassed to have even posted your "corrections."

Get a life, folks. Seriously.

Paul

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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As usual, most of the people wombatting are screwing up their grammar and adding to the mistake pool.

Some of y'all should be embarrassed to have even posted your "corrections."

Get a life, folks. Seriously.

Paul

Funny that - I was thinking about that while typing "I bet I'm getting something wrong in an ironic way"

I figured there would be someone who loves this stuff enough to pick me up when it happened

I guess by your last statement you would rather we didn't have these types of conversations? I'm ok with that - I just didn't realise it was a problem, but you have my apologies for it and I'll avoid such things in the future.

A

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Andy,

Nope. By all means, continue. There is no rule against starting threads to alert people to potentially serious credibility crushers.

I just find it amusing to see the wombats rushing in where angels fear to tread...

Paul

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Steve B

11 years ago

Paul,
What's a wombat? Obviously, you're not speaking of the marsupials from Australia in this context. I'm curious to know your use of that term.

Steve

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Steve,

See The Wombat Report.

Paul

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Steve B

11 years ago

Thank you Paul.

A wonderful read and oh so timely!

I'm going to make sure in 2013 I don't dangle my participles.

Steve

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Steve,

I'm going to make sure in 2013 I don't dangle my participles.

At least not in public. That's illegal in several states...

Paul

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Steve B

11 years ago

You know, we all have a little wombat and zombie in us in some aspect of our lives. It may not be grammar, spelling, or IM practices but surely we all stress and fidget over something that grabs us by the throat and won't let go.

Too much weight, too many drinks, too much criticism, too little patience, too quick to judge, too often unforgiving, not enough exercise, and on and on and on . . .

Wouldn't this planet be a much happier place if each of us would get rid of just one of our zombie or wombat tendencies in 2013?

Steve

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Steve,

If we let go of the attachment we have to the picture of ourselves we each carry around in our heads...

BAM!

Ego gone. Ends of problems...

Paul

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Steve B 11 years ago

Paul,

I love this quote: "The passion of self-aggrandizement is persistent but plastic; it will never disappear from a vigorous mind, but may become morally higher by attaching itself to a larger conception of what constitutes the self."

Charles Cooley, Human Nature and the Social Order

Steve
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Sandra Martinez 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Steve,

If we let go of the attachment we have to the picture of ourselves we each carry around in our heads...

BAM!

Ego gone. Ends of problems...

Paul

Can I hear an Amen?
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Daniel Evans

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Steve,

If we let go of the attachment we have to the picture of ourselves we each carry around in our heads...

BAM!

Ego gone. Ends of problems...

Paul

So we need to be dead, insane, have misfiring neural clusters or be on heavy dose of psychedelics...

If I absolutely must, I'll take the last....

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Sandra Martinez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Evans

So we need to be dead, insane, have misfiring neural clusters or be on heavy dose of psychedelics...

If I absolutely must, I'll take the last....

Paul does not need my defense, or anyone´s else... but I agree with him, so here I go:

it is not about what you said at all, and you already know it. Now if you want to use it as an excuse to get into psychedelics, assuming that beard is not fake and you are old enough... Go for it!

It is about not forgetting the big picture.

To be the best we can be - and this includes communication, IS important.

To get caught in the small print to the point of losing what the other is trying to say, is just sad.

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Daniel Evans

11 years ago

^ That is too much ego. My post was mere jest.

Maybe the beard is a product of psychedelics?

[edited to insert smiley in case that joke was missed too!]

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Sandra Martinez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Evans

^ That is too much ego. My post was mere jest.

Maybe the beard is a product of psychedelics?

[edited to insert smiley in case that joke was missed too!]

Ohhhhh I was the one caught in the small print!

I soo deserve it!!!

LOL

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travlinguy

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

And here's me worrying about kids in Africa with no food or water in the boiling sun with flies all over there, ther, their heads.

Who gives a grammatical sh** in the grand scheme of things.

I don't.

That is low dude..low.

I bet I could still make you look like a start-up on any given day and I can't spell for Toffee, at least according to my old school teacher Mrs Pook who who wrote in my school report about how obnoxious I was and that I would amount to nothing (I've still got that!!)

...so yeah, love you too Mrs Pook, if your reading this your name was Mrs Pork and btw we could spot you coming from miles away from behind the Tech Block

...yep you was right, that's where we used to be. hahah!

There are some seriously CLEVER and I mean SMART dudes hanging around shops who could do great things.

It's my goal to start up an academy for underprivileged kids. In August last year I bought my plot of land so there, try that for size travlinguy.

I can't stand that sort of small minded crap like what you just said, makes me think unrepeatable phrases.

Anyway..

Since we're wear wer'e getting into the politically correct terminology debate hears. here. here's what I find odd...

When someone says.

"Your a complete stranger..."

Now, seriously, how many variations's of a {mode:} "complete" {/end mode} stranger are there?

I either know someone or I don't. Simple as. "Hi dude, your a 25% stranger"...errr wtf??!

Another often *******ized word is "Neither" and "Either" which of those two chicken and egg phrases is correct and/or incorrect?

The english language can be *******ized how ever way you want, I could *******ize it in all manner of ways...at the end of the day it's all the same hamburger and I really don't give that much of a hoot.

See in that last sentence for example "How ever" and "However"...which is the correct term?...

Case in point, it's all the same Hamburger....Unless your a prude. So if your a perude..you know.. blank____________ oop's I spelt prude wrong there..bring out the grammer Nazi's...oops did I actually just spell Grammar wrong too....!!!!!

How dare you drunkenmonkey!!!To sum up all that..if all you've got to worry about is whether or not the "then" or "than" is correct or not, life's pretty good right?...jeeezzz.

Light travels faster than sound that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

...well technically that's not "Correct" either/neither (which one) since a Forum is pretty mute.

Anyways..

/back to the real world.

*****bangs head on table****

I suppose I would have had similar comments years ago, when I was a drunken monkey. There are a couple of points to be made here. One is, I think people should always be at their best. The problem with that is society now encourages mediocrity. And it shows. Western Europe along with the US and Canada used to graduate the majority of scientists, engineers, physicians and other leaders. We are now nowhere near the top in anything that really matters. The average high school grad in the US reads at a 6th grade level. Ugh.

It's all well and good to point out how certain things don't matter. I'd actually agree with some of that. But it's the overall trend that's important and that trend points to an ever-increasing population of idiots. The sad part is the movement is sanctioned by the very people who should be taking the opposite stance.

I've read some of your posts in the past and it's obvious you've got something on the ball. It's too bad you spend so much of your energy carrying around that 800-pound chip on your shoulder. Been there, done that. Trust me, that energy would be far better spent doing something positive.

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Khemosabi

11 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

But it's the overall trend that's important and that trend points to an ever-increasing population of idiots. The sad part is the movement is sanctioned by the very people who should be taking the opposite stance.

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP.. BRAVO!!!

A standing ovation!

~ Theresa

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Mohsin Rasool

11 years ago

Hi Andy,

Thanks for asking this question. LOL I used to think same, that maybe in USA it does not matter.. As we were taught UK based English.. and using THEN instead of THAN would have made my teacher MAD at me

Thanks,
Mohsin

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laurencewins

11 years ago

I had a major proofreading job to do this year. I had to proofread ALL of the school reports for a school from prep to year 12. It was 1500 pages long and in a hard copy version so it took me a LONG time to do it all. The sad thing is that the teachers made so many dumb mistakes. The sadder thing is that they are the TEACHERS. I feel sorry for the kids if the teachers can't even spell.

As a proofreader I almost cry at some of the spelling I see in shop windows and in other places. I see people write defiantly when it should be definitely. I could list a ton of errors but I think many have already been covered here.

I am blind in 1 eye and I still do better than 95% of people I come across. Almost every ebook I have ever purchased has had a ton of errors in it. Yet when I email the author, the reply is just another demonstration of their apathy.

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Steve B 11 years ago

Than is a conjunction. It is used to connect two words or phrases that are being compared with one another.

Your site gets more traffic than mine.
My paycheck is bigger than yours.
Version one is better than version two.

Supposedly, than has no synonyms, no words that mean the same thing.

Then is used as an adverb. It specifies when an action is taken compared to a different action.

I set up my web site then I added a shopping cart.
I ate dinner then I went to the movie.
Go shopping then get your hair cut.

Now then, using the right word is easier than you think!

Steve
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clintmyers

11 years ago

This is why it is a good idea to read what you write and have someone else proof it as well.

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FreeMeal

11 years ago

Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language -...

This video usually ends up on threads like this at some point, so I may as well throw it in the mix now.

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Jean Morgan 11 years ago

My personal bete noir is homophones.

Words which sound the same yet are of a different spelling and totally different meaning.

I saw something written today which set my teeth on edge, "Am I aloud to do this?"

Also, please do not dare to write this new word prolly that I keep seeing and have deciphered from the context that it is meant to be probably. Idle speech = idle spelling.
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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FreeMeal

Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language - YouTube

This video usually ends up on threads like this at some point, so I may as well throw it in the mix now.

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with that. You can't just throw it in and step back.

I could take from it that you think I'm being a pedant by posting this thread and that my perception that people using the wrong words is only a problem for me.

or

I could take from it that you included it because of the all-important end part where Stephen says that context is everything and that because we see it from people claiming to be professional writers and such that they have indeed got it wrong because in such contexts it is blatantly going to have the opposite effect to the one they desire.

And I guess the reason I even mentioned it lies across both sides of that.

Yes - I think it's a sign of lazy writing and/or ignorance - and I accept that for some people who write like that it's not a problem in many situations. When they write like that in texts and emails to their friends it's probably irrelevant.

I was just curious as to whether it had become acceptable or even was taught in some countries because I couldn't imagine that so many people could make the same mistake and so it must be intentional spelling.

For most of it - I don't actually give 2 hoots about it, but if (as in many cases) I buy an info-product and the 'author' is using all the wrong words in this way then I lose respect for them and it taints my perception of their expertise/professionalism. In an IM forum I think that context makes it worth having a chat about.

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kaellyn

11 years ago

There is a large group of people who spell based on how they talk. There is a large group of people who pronounce "than" and "then" the same way. When those two groups overlap, you have mistakes. Same thing with "would of/could of/should of" and various other errors.

When it comes to words that truly don't have a difference in pronunciation (their/there), all hope is lost.

As for teaching...I just traded in a 16-year career teaching English for a work-at-home-mom gig. When I was teaching, I had classes for 50 minutes at a time. I did teach grammar and spelling. I also taught writing. I also taught vocabulary. I also taught basic reading skills. I also taught reading comprehension. I also taught literary interpretation. I also taught manners. I also taught conflict resolution. I also taught critical thinking. I occasionally branched into history, science, math, or other languages if they were relevant.

And that wasn't even on a busy day.

I can't speak for other countries, but the US has moved to an unhealthy reliance on standardized testing. You have to cover the topics that will be tested in the amount of time you have before the test is given. That means you have to pick and choose what you think will give your students the most value for the time spent. You also have to move on quickly before all students get the concept. Some topics got thrown under the bus - or just skimmed over - because there simply wasn't time.

I won't even give you my rant about students who don't understand the concept of learning to retain the knowledge or parents who don't want to take time out of their busy lives to make sure their kids are learning. All I'll say is that thankfully, not all students and not all parents are like that.

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robestrong 11 years ago

Here's my take.

If you're just talking, as long as everyone can understand everyone else, it shouldn't really matter. You can get all stickler about it (I can often be a bit of a grammar nazi), but it's pointless and futile.

If you're creating a product it should be spotless. Otherwise I will quietly hate your guts. A few people try to go for the "I don't care, it doesn't matter" aspect in a product with horrific grammar and spelling and odd phrasing... and in those cases I normally ask for a refund claiming (legitimate and overwhelming) confusion.

Finally, in terms of just talking/posting that's not legible, that I also have a bit of a problem with. On Facebook and various forums it was getting so bad at one point that I made my own web browser specifically to correct their spelling (and some of their grammar) so I could make out what the heck they were going on about.

Just my $0.02.
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Mohsin Rasool

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kaellyn

You also have to move on quickly before all students get the concept. Some topics got thrown under the bus - or just skimmed over - because there simply wasn't time.

I won't even give you my rant about students who don't understand the concept of learning to retain the knowledge or parents who don't want to take time out of their busy lives to make sure their kids are learning. All I'll say is that thankfully, not all students and not all parents are like that.

I think Khan Academy (A Not for Profit Global FREE Education Provider) have solution to this,
listen to Sal Khan here

Salman Khan talk at TED 2011 (from ted.com) -...

He says, we do not give 2hours to each kid to try and learn bicycle and move on..
we give them bicycle, and let them play, fall, and get up and learn and let them take
as much as time they required for that student to master that skill... I love to see the direction 21st century Education is going...
Khan Academy

Thanks,
Mohsin

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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mohsin Rasool

I think Khan Academy (A Not for Profit Global FREE Education Provider) have solution to this,
listen to Sal Khan here
Salman Khan talk at TED 2011 (from ted.com) - YouTube

He says, we do not give 2hours to each kid to try and learn bicycle and move on..
we give them bicycle, and let them play, fall, and get up and learn and let them take
as much as time they required for that student to master that skill... I love to see the direction 21st century Education is going...
Khan Academy

Thanks,
Mohsin

Nice.

I hope there are enough people who care about their (and their kids) education to take advantage of the fact that there are people around trying to help them overcome the short-comings of the normal education systems.

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FreeMeal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with that. You can't just throw it in and step back.

I could take from it that you think I'm being a pedant by posting this thread and that my perception that people using the wrong words is only a problem for me.

or

I could take from it that you included it because of the all-important end part where Stephen says that context is everything and that because we see it from people claiming to be professional writers and such that they have indeed got it wrong because in such contexts it is blatantly going to have the opposite effect to the one they desire.

And I guess the reason I even mentioned it lies across both sides of that.

Yes - I think it's a sign of lazy writing and/or ignorance - and I accept that for some people who write like that it's not a problem in many situations. When they write like that in texts and emails to their friends it's probably irrelevant.

I was just curious as to whether it had become acceptable or even was taught in some countries because I couldn't imagine that so many people could make the same mistake and so it must be intentional spelling.

For most of it - I don't actually give 2 hoots about it, but if (as in many cases) I buy an info-product and the 'author' is using all the wrong words in this way then I lose respect for them and it taints my perception of their expertise/professionalism. In an IM forum I think that context makes it worth having a chat about.

It was nothing personal Andy. Sorry if it came across that way. Just playing devil's advocate to the discussion as a whole, not to you personally. The video doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion either.

As someone mentioned above, it seems the words then and than were once one and the same, which shows language is always evolving. I suppose the language we use today would probably be unrecognisable to those a few generations ago.

Text speak will probably start to find its way into acceptable language sooner or later, if it hasn't all ready.

On a side note, in the novel Blindness Jose Saramago doesn't use any full stops or commas. I also read somewhere that Irvine Welsh doesn't bother using commas at all.

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Soulstreak

11 years ago

I know exactly what you mean. Another thing I have noticed is people from countries that do not speak English as a native language trying to get a spot doing article writing or becoming some sort of writer.

The ad will be like, "Looking for the best English writers etc" and foreigners will sit there and type:

"Yes I am good writer and I have inboxing you concerned the writer availability position in which I would write English."

/facepalm

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gnye207

11 years ago

No I believe it is wrong. The proper use of the word relates to; then is related to time,
than is related comparison. Bill is taller than I am. However, I also believe that those not knowing the difference spell out then a lot when they type.

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Martin Avis 11 years ago

Good question Andy.

My reaction to it is not as charitable as yours: I simply assume that the writer is ignorant.

Martin
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Jason Kanigan

11 years ago

The scary thing about children not having their misspellings corrected is that they will come into the workforce not knowing how to communicate.

If they cannot communicate they are far less likely to become managers, or be able to get ideas off the ground.

What is the payoff to our leaders in keeping their workforce ignorant?

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Frank Donovan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Is there a language where that is correct?

Not currently, but in Old English the word then was used for both then and than (source: New Oxford Dictionary of English). They've obviously since evolved to take on their separate meanings.

It's important to get it right - I bristle at errors as much as anyone - but it's also worth bearing in mind that our language is constantly changing, and those changes are likely to speed up with the advances in global communication. English Usage text books considered definitive only a few decades ago contain several examples of correct grammar that most modern readers would find archaic.

Frank

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Don Schenk

11 years ago

We learn our basic grammar when we are toddler learning to speak. If our parents made grammatical mistakes, the language we learned will contain those same mistakes.

Hopefully these mistakes are corrected by our teachers (and we pay attention to those corrections) once we enter school.

That said, for the most part, my parents used proper grammar when they spoke. Therefore I learned the same way of speaking, but spelling has always been a problem for me.

There must be a hole in my brain that prevents the correct spelling of words to stick. I see the letters transposed, and I do the same thing with numbers. I can look at words, or numbers, several times, and continue to transpose them.

Word processing software containing spell-check has been a godsend for me. Little by little my spelling has improved simply because the word processing software immediately flags my misspellings.

I usually need to copy and paste my WF posts into MS Word to check my spelling before I hit the "Post Quick Reply" button. When I did so with this post, there was only one word misspelled.

Lack of spelling ability has nothing to do with intelligence. Think of it the way you might think of the ability to play a musical instrument. Some people have the talent and ability to learn to play well, while some people don't.

Some spelling and grammatical mistakes seem to be more common than others. Many of these have been covered in this thread. For the most part, those are mistakes my teachers corrected for me when I was a child. Thus I learned proper use.

Butt Eye Stil Kant Spel Mai Weigh Out Ov A Whet Papir Bahg.

English contains words from many other languages, thus the "rules" come to it from a varied assortment of language rules. I can only begin to imagine how difficult it must be to learn English as a second language when one begins to do so later in life.

:-Don

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Kal Sallam

11 years ago

It's an American slang.

Like for instance: "are" instead of "our" and "then" instead of "than"
Some people write like they speak.

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Doppelbock

11 years ago

If it looks wrong, it probably is wrong.

Just make sure yours isn't.

Golden rule

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Dennis Gaskill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by AnniePot

I once had a long discussion with an 8th grade English teacher from San Jose, California.

She told me she has been taught not to mark spelling and grammatical errors in her students' work because, by doing so, she would "dishearten and discourage" then.

Originally Posted by Alex Barboza

To AnniePot and Alexa: I'm a teacher of English As A Second Language and I was also told at university that we shouldn't correct those errors in student's work.

Originally Posted by onSubie

A Canadian teacher in Edmonton was suspended and then fired for giving a "0" for work not handed in.

School policy was not to mark assignments that were not handed in.

The kind of thinking behind those examples contributes to the entitlement mentality so many have these days.

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Andyhenry

11 years ago

Thanks everyone for your responses - I'm glad I asked the question but not sure I like the implication of some of the answers.

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Daniel Evans 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Thanks everyone for your responses - I'm glad I asked the question but not sure I like the implication of some of the answers.

You're more then welcome.
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Jerry Chavez

11 years ago

I usually use THAN when I do comparison because grammar wise its the right thing to do...

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Boy, do I end up messing then and than up. The more I think about it, the more I mess it up. Luckily, it hasn't hurt me making sales.

One of my goals this year is to learn a new language so I can mess that up as well. haha

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PatrickBrianONeill

11 years ago

When I see that egregious grammatical error, and others, in sales copy, on sales pages, blogs and web sites, I instantly disregard that individual as having any integrity, relevance or substance that I need to be a part of.

But the most used and grammatically incorrect error in everyday life, and by supposedly "good" writers, is "there's" where "there are" is correct.

Wrong - There's a lot of people on the WF.
Right - There are a lot of people on the WF.

We all know if we write, spell, speak and communicate properly or not. Just get someone to help if you need it.

Hire an editor or proofreader for the love of Pete! You are mauling your reputation needlessly.

Patrick

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magicsubmittertutorials

11 years ago

A lot of the time its a case of "typing fingers having a brain of their own".

An example is the UK location "Western super maRe".

When I first started typing that word I always wrote weston super maTe, because maTE is a word I use 100 times more frequently than maRe.

It took me a lot of editing and some serious frustration to make sure I trained my fingers to know the difference between the two.

We and my is own that sometimes gets mixed up, not by being grammatically incorrect but simply by the such frequent use of both.

In real conversation I hate it when people say "where is me phone" but in typing I let it slide a little more, as I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

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WikiWarrior

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Hi Warriors,

I see a LOT of posts where people use the word 'then' where I am expecting to see 'than'.

In the UK that is just wrong and looks like a grammatical error. I see it so much that I'm wondering if in some countries it's a legitimate use of the word.

Andy

You're quite write of course Andy. It's such a simple error and yet so many people make it and other, similar mistakes. The only way to beat this problem is through the education system. Tackling it on a case by case basis would be a waist of time and I fear one would end up loosing their mind in the process.

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Sandra Martinez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WikiWarrior

You're quite write of course Andy. It's such a simple error and yet so many people make it and other, similar mistakes. The only way to beat this problem is through the education system. Tackling it on a case by case basis would be a waist of time and I fear one would end up loosing their mind in the process.

Oh... those are awesome.

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Then or Than? Is it the same for you?

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