Don't get caught in this paypal/affiliate scam

85 replies
I want to type you out a little story about a mistake I made back in November. this has to be one of the best scams I have ever seen in my life, and I wanted to warn anybody that accepts affiliates to use your head before approving them. I know this will invite comments, and i'm not sure which direction this thread will go, but i'm only making this thread to warn others to use their heads in a similar situation...

About November 1st I started selling a product on a affiliate platform attached to paypal. I started getting requests, and at first i did due diligence and started asking questions, etc. Approved some, denied some, etc. the sales started happening a few days later, and everything looked ok. More affiliates started applying, so I stopped being so careful and approved a number more. Everything looks good right? WRONG.

About a week later I got my first chargeback. I called paypal right away, told them I didn't know what it was about, and refunded it. Didn't seem like anything crazy, wrote the affiliate to ask them about it, didn't hear back. Banned them.

fast forward a few weeks, sales are pouring in daily. Everything looks good. Suddenly, a few more chargebacks started sneaking in. I called paypal every time, and discovered that the chargebacks were all from affiliate accounts sending me traffic. At this point, i had about 5 chargebacks in on 3 different affiliates, and sales were still happening. So, i disabled those affiliates, refunded the payments, and moved on.

few more days later, now more chargebacks coming in. I went in and disabled the payment buttons and refunded every single transaction from affiliates. we're talking 2500 bucks worth. even then, there were 5 affiliates sending me these sales and so i didn't want to take any further risk, so i ended it. I paid those affiliates more than 1000 dollars of my money, and when i refunded the transactions, those people still had half my money. I called paypal and explained it ALL in great details. I was told "we're looking into it" 'we take fraud seriously" and etc. Never heard anything else, so called them back again. At one point, they ACTUALLY TOLD me while looking through my history that they couldn't confirm those affiliate payments were made on my behalf, to those fraudulent accounts. EVEN THOUGH in my history, you see payment to me, then to the affiliate platform, then exactly 50% to the same fraud paypal account holders, over and over and over again.


Paypal has now started working with me on the situation, and I admire them handling this with me. Will i get my money back? doubtful. Will they be fully versed in the scam at the end of this? i hope so. Hopefully paypal will take this sort of thing seriously, as undoubtedly I am not the FIRST or LAST to have set myself up like this.

Here's the moral of the story..i'll put it in nice big letters

If you work with an affiliate platform, whoever it is, that has adaptive payment solutions that work with paypal, you better make sure you don't approve affiliates you don't recognize, or you may fall victim to the same results. I'll say it again: DO NOT approve your affiliates on instant payments until you know and or have a history with them.

This was a very stupid decision on my part and it has cost me. From what I am finding out, paypal is not going to be returning my money to me. So, this has been a very nice lesson learned.


DON'T fall for the same scam. Use your head with your affiliate requests guys


I hope this helps somebody out.

have a great day,
Matt

Kudos to paypal: they have communicated with me, and I found the history when I downloaded it. They have since started disputes on every single transaction. I don't believe i will recover the money from dead accounts, however it does bring me some comfort that they are taking the situation seriously, and giving me their attention on it.

#caught #paypal #scam
  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    Pre-approval is the key. Anyone know if there's a master 'whitelist' of affiliate details so people don't get scammed like this?
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    best thing you can do is if it's an instant, automatic, type of button, to only use the "delayed" feature. this will scare them off. once they know they're not getting paid right away, they will run. The well known power players on the forum are not who I'm talking about here. it's the unknown with no history.
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  • Profile picture of the author Devin X
    Banned
    I'm not liking PayPal as of late... seems like a lot of payment processors are becoming unscrupulous.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    It's a bad situation.

    DISCLAIMER:
    I am ultimately to blame for this. Had I ONLY delayed payments to these affiliates, none of this would have taken place.

    Lesson learned.
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  • Profile picture of the author deji yusuf
    awww sorry bro scammers at it again!
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Yes. Not all affiliates are bad, just some
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    I've been weary of that adaptive payment system, the pitches for it are always positive, but they never realy talk about the explioting that can go on with their access to your paypal.


    was this a 3rd party affiliate program or your own? I wonder if their adaptive system allows them to delete the paypal transactions in your account? the wording on access privileges I've seen on one affiliate hosting program seems to be wide open for abuse.


    Someone talked about a whitelist. That might stop a few people, but with proxies and fake paypal identities common in the scam world, I don't see a whitelist helping much. Hopefully I'm wrong.

    These type of people are probably preying on every person who is offering affiliate sales on that adaptive platform. In hopes to find person like OP, who wasn't aware of this.

    That was a quick few thousand dollars for them, they're on to the next victim .
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    It is my understanding that payments can be delayed with both Warrior Plus and JV Zoo, correct?

    This, plus screening affiliates helps it seems. Any other tips that anyone knows to avoid this sort of thing would be greatly appreciated. Anyone?
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      It is my understanding that payments can be delayed with both Warrior Plus and JV Zoo, correct?

      This, plus screening affiliates helps it seems. Any other tips that anyone knows to avoid this sort of thing would be greatly appreciated. Anyone?
      delayed payments , if you approve someone you don't know personally.
      not approving those you don't know at all.

      This seems to be the solution. it's all fine and dandy when a bunch of sales come in. it just gets testy when the unauthorized chargebacks follow
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    maybe only allow serious affiliates. those who are operating as a business, verify tax-id, etc...


    paypal verified account looks pretty and secure, but is easily duped, and offers no real security in these types of transactions
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Sorry that happened to you. I had that happen before too, but caught on right away. I lost less than $100. Just put everyone you don't know on delayed payments until they prove themselves. A click of a button and the problem is solved. No need to fear the system, just use it smartly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      I'm really sorry this turned into such a costly lesson to you. One thing I don't quite understand is why you thought PayPal would return any money to you? This doesn't sound like it would come under the scope of their services to start with.
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      • Profile picture of the author mattjay
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        I'm really sorry this turned into such a costly lesson to you. One thing I don't quite understand is why you thought PayPal would return any money to you? This doesn't sound like it would come under the scope of their services to start with.
        Let's see how this all boils down. paypal has started to address the situation and we'll see how it ends up.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sorry that happened to you. I had that happen before too, but caught on right away. I lost less than $100. Just put everyone you don't know on delayed payments until they prove themselves. A click of a button and the problem is solved. No need to fear the system, just use it smartly.
      I am sorry this happened to you as well. Yeah, not the brightest guy in the world for a few reasons:
      -approved affiliates I really didn't know at all and
      -didn't catch on until 2500 in sales came in.

      I'm seriously looking for a solution besides paypal now. Maybe merchant account, another processor, etc. don't know. It's a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author feedthegoats
    Thanks for sharing the lesson on affiliate approval. I've had a few headaches about eBay buyers and PayPal in the past, but for the most part they've been fine. And really, there doesn't seem to be any other real option, is there?
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  • Profile picture of the author jivens
    Banned
    I remember when people used to be able to approve almost every affiliate that applied. It's a huge mess now. I talk to the affiliates thoroughly before I even try think about approving them. However, their are scammers and always will be scammers.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Yeah .... same thing happened to me. I wrote about it awhile ago. Paypal did refund me one commission paid from an scam affiilate who did have a balance in their Paypal account, but for the most part, the scam affiliate empties out the Paypal account very quickly before the chargebacks start rolling in. I'm no longer allowing affiliates at all. I stopped using those platforms. The affiliate sales didn't add up to the money lost due to the scam artists.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Yeah .... same thing happened to me. I wrote about it awhile ago. Paypal did refund me one commission paid from an scam affiilate who did have a balance in their Paypal account, but for the most part, the scam affiliate empties out the Paypal account very quickly before the chargebacks start rolling in. I'm no longer allowing affiliates at all. I stopped using those platforms. The affiliate sales didn't add up to the money lost due to the scam artists.
      Sorry it happened to you as well. It appears that I will not be getting my money back, but hey, I could try. I saw that thread and it was very helpful, thank you.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    I just got Pmd asking me who the processor/platform was. Fact is, They helped me out a lot in the situation, but i'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus here, or mention names. The fault in this instance lies with me, and me alone.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

      I just got Pmd asking me who the processor/platform was. Fact is, They helped me out a lot in the situation, but i'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus here, or mention names. The fault in this instance lies with me, and me alone.
      It has happened on all of the Instant Payment affiliate platforms in this forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Yup. I can see that. I gotta say it's a brilliant scam. Ultimately it's your own fault. You can catch it eventually; just dependent on how quickly people chargeback.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    Sorry to hear it happened to you, too... however, it has been discussed extensively on this forum for more than a year this type of scam. And yes, it can happen with any affiliate platform used around here (JVzoo, W+, Digiresults etc.) - when you approve affiliates with instant pay.

    If all this stuff is new for somebody that has been in this market for several years - that's when I am surprised!
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

      Sorry to hear it happened to you, too... however, it has been discussed extensively on this forum for more than a year this type of scam. And yes, it can happen with any affiliate platform used around here (JVzoo, W+, Digiresults etc.) - when you approve affiliates with instant pay.

      If all this stuff is new for somebody that has been in this market for several years - that's when I am surprised!
      There are plenty of warnings on the forum that I found, AFTER the fact lol. Like I said, I thought everything was done right on my end, in the beginning with questions, checks, etc. If I would have seen the warnings, I probably would've been a little smarter hindsight is always 20/20 though...
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

      Sorry to hear it happened to you, too... however, it has been discussed extensively on this forum for more than a year this type of scam. And yes, it can happen with any affiliate platform used around here (JVzoo, W+, Digiresults etc.) - when you approve affiliates with instant pay.

      If all this stuff is new for somebody that has been in this market for several years - that's when I am surprised!
      Well, it's a pretty well thought out and sophisticated little scam. I never thought of it at all until it happened to me and until I posted about it, I never read anything about it. Now I've read quite a lot about it.

      Then there's the newbs too, who wouldn't give this a thought until it's too late, so it's good for people to post their experience with this.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    So it looks like you're saying that when you refunded transactions the part of the sale that went to the affiliate wasn't pulled out of those affiliates' paypal accounts to give the full refund? I assume because their paypal accounts were empty.

    Because that's what I'm hearing. Does that mean the system automatically pulled the rest of the refund from your account, then?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

      So it looks like you're saying that when you refunded transactions the part of the sale that went to the affiliate wasn't pulled out of those affiliates' paypal accounts to give the full refund? I assume because their paypal accounts were empty.

      Because that's what I'm hearing. Does that mean the system automatically pulled the rest of the refund from your account, then?

      Yes.

      The scam is that the affiliate gets paid immediately, then closes his/her paypal account a week later.

      When the chargebacks start coming in, there are only 2 of 3 players left on the field, and those two pay the money back to the refunder.

      If you don't know the affiliate, don't approve them OR put them on delayed payment - to be paid after the refund window.

      I know you can delay payment with nanacast and jvzoo, but I am unsure if other processors have that delayed payment option available.
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    so it worked like this. Sale was paid to me in full, affiliate system got their portion, affiliate got their 50% paid to them. then, when i went in and started refunding, I got the affiliate SYSTEM payment refunded to me, but NOT the 50 % payment made automatically to the affiliate. Apparently they get to keep there's in the little scam
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    • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
      I've run into this scam too, about a couple of years ago. Noticed an interesting pattern in the names of the affiliates and the Paypal accounts they used.

      What really drove me nuts is that the chargebacks started coming in just short of 2 months after the purchase. It was freaky.

      Thankfully, the numbers were a lot lower. It was only about a handful of transactions, but still...

      I think I'll stick with people I know in the future. Or with BEING the affiliate rather than having affiliates...
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by wordwizard View Post

        I've run into this scam too, about a couple of years ago. Noticed an interesting pattern in the names of the affiliates and the Paypal accounts they used.

        What really drove me nuts is that the chargebacks started coming in just short of 2 months after the purchase. It was freaky.

        Thankfully, the numbers were a lot lower. It was only about a handful of transactions, but still...

        I think I'll stick with people I know in the future. Or with BEING the affiliate rather than having affiliates...

        So what was the pattern that you saw?

        I've seen patterns before with affiliate applications and it's usually easy to spot what looks like a sketchy affiliate.
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      • Profile picture of the author mattjay
        Originally Posted by wordwizard View Post

        I've run into this scam too, about a couple of years ago. Noticed an interesting pattern in the names of the affiliates and the Paypal accounts they used.

        What really drove me nuts is that the chargebacks started coming in just short of 2 months after the purchase. It was freaky.

        Thankfully, the numbers were a lot lower. It was only about a handful of transactions, but still...

        I think I'll stick with people I know in the future. Or with BEING the affiliate rather than having affiliates...
        what i noticed in the pattern is some of them were similar names. same nationality. some weren't. In total it was 7 affiliates that got me. what i also noticed is their names were different in the affiliate processor and paypal.

        too bad i noticed too late
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    So if I understand you right, then the refund ended up being only a partial refund in that scenario?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

      So if I understand you right, then the refund ended up being only a partial refund in that scenario?

      The buyer got the full refund.

      The seller ate the affiliate payments too.

      In most of those systems, the payment goes to the seller, then money is forwarded to the processor and then to the affiliate.

      One person, the seller, is responsible for all refunds. And when the refund is processed, those who benefited from the transaction get their payments reversed too.

      But when the affiliate account no longer exists within the system, there will be no recompense coming from the affiliate.
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        The buyer got the full refund.

        The seller ate the affiliate payments too.

        In most of those systems, the payment goes to the seller, then money is forwarded to the processor and then to the affiliate.

        One person, the seller, is responsible for all refunds. And when the refund is processed, those who benefited from the transaction get their payments reversed too.

        But when the affiliate account no longer exists within the system, there will be no recompense coming from the affiliate.

        Yep, I use adaptive payment affiliate platforms of course so I know how the original payment works and I've used it to refund before as well and since I only approve affiliates I know or have full trust in it hasn't been a problem for me.

        If I have a question about an affiliate, I don't even do delayed, I just don't approve.

        I've just never had this problem so am trying to clarify that basically if some affiliate screwed me like this, I would then be paying the rest of the refund out of my own account, leaving me in the hole. Was hard to follow the original OP for me, ha ha. Anyway sounds like that's what happened.

        Basically mattjay paid money out of his own pocket to compensate affiliates for scamming him!
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

          Basically mattjay paid money out of his own pocket to compensate affiliates for scamming him!
          Yep ... that's exactly the way it goes, and you get charged another $25 in chargeback fees per chargeback.
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          • Profile picture of the author mattjay
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Yep ... that's exactly the way it goes, and you get charged another $25 in chargeback fees per chargeback.
            EXACTLY. that's why the best thing i did is to refund every transaction before the chagebacks hit. As a result, I recovered a few chargebacks that were decided in my favor.

            As a result of contacting paypal, I now have 44 different disputes started by them, and they have promised a full investigation and reply in short order. I gotta say, I'm impressed. If this causes them to rethink looking deeply into this scam, then I am happy whether i get my money back or not, which I doubt i will.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    J, just to clarify:
    the payment gets made to me, sold by an affiliate. i get 39.95. then automatically the processor gets their amount taken from me, and automatically the affiliate gets paid 19.98 or 50% from me. so i get paid, then pay those two. When i processed the refund, the processor payment came back to me, the buyer whos credit card got stolen apparently got their money back, but i did not get the payment made to the affiliate back. That's what i'm talking about here. in this scam, you don't get paid back automatically when you refund. they get to keep their money
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

      J, just to clarify:
      the payment gets made to me, sold by an affiliate. i get 39.95. then automatically the processor gets their amount taken from me, and automatically the affiliate gets paid 19.98 or 50% from me. so i get paid, then pay those two. When i processed the refund, the processor payment came back to me, the buyer whos credit card got stolen apparently got their money back, but i did not get the payment made to the affiliate back. That's what i'm talking about here. in this scam, you don't get paid back automatically when you refund. they get to keep their money

      Right, so basically you just end up $20 in the hole. Sucks!
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Right. Sucks but avoidable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    It wouldn't surprise me if what happened here was credit card fraud from your affiliate.

    can you tell how many different credit cards were used in those transactions?




    fraudster-publisher: buys product through his own affiliate link. fake paypal, fake address, proxies, fake whatever-else

    product creator on paypal/ 3rd party flexpay immediately gets paid, and the commission is distributed immediately to fraudster.

    fraudster does this for a short time, withdraws cash from paypal. then requests refunds to end the transactions, and flees that paypal account


    probably thinking in their mind they have't hurt the product owner because no money was actually stolen directly from him or her.

    just a big hassle to see that money come in only to go out just as fast.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyler S
    Paypal usually deals with these types of issues well. I am very disappointed in them. However, this does happen all the time, with the same people just making alternate accounts.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Very true. At this point kudos to paypal: they have started claims and investigations on all the paymnts. Good for them still don't think I'm getting 1k back out of empty accounts though
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    • Profile picture of the author 622im
      Thanks for the post. As I'm working on my own product at the moment, this thread has been very insightful.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    NO problem. My total goal is to keep this from happening to anybody else. That's it
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  • Profile picture of the author sidfromla
    Thanks for sharing ! Could of very well helped me to not make the same mistake.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    update:
    paypal continues to help. I"m blown away with their response to this. May get my money, may not. But they are surely taking the lead in this situation now. Well done, paypal.
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  • Profile picture of the author edhuu
    Good to hear that man.. hopefully they will give your money back and be aware of this kind of scam in the future.. thx for sharing anyway
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by edhuu View Post

      Good to hear that man.. hopefully they will give your money back and be aware of this kind of scam in the future.. thx for sharing anyway
      i honestly don't want anybody else to have to go through it. Just to be safe with affilaites getting my money back would be a great side effect
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    are you talking about getting money back from the fraudulent transaction, or was there additional money that came out of your pocket on top of these transactions?

    ex:" scammer pays $47 for product, waits a couple days, then scammer refunds the product and the $47 gets refunded with the share being distributed between you and the affiliate just as it did on the purchase.


    So, aside from those transactions in this scheme, was there additional money that you are being hit with having to pay in that event?

    because, my guess is that the scammer is stealing the money on the float frauding paypal. not necessarily yourself, you just happened to be an access point.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    here it is in a nutshell. I can't say exactly what happened, because I'm not paypal. I just know what I saw.

    affiliate signs up and is approved. Affiliate starts producing sales of my product:
    i get $40
    processor gets their fee automatically
    affiliate gets 20 bucks automatically.

    Then, a chargeback happens. If i settle the charge back and refund the payment,
    card user gets $40. Chargeback fee I absorb, of $25 ( i think.)
    processor returns their money to me.
    Affilaite does NOT get their payment returned to me. For what reason? i'm unsure. so in the end, I'm out a total of of 40 dollars for the product, $25 for the chargeback fee, and $20 paid to the affiliate. Make sense?
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    • Profile picture of the author cynthiaSEL
      Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

      here it is in a nutshell. I can't say exactly what happened, because I'm not paypal. I just know what I saw.

      affiliate signs up and is approved. Affiliate starts producing sales of my product:
      i get $40
      processor gets their fee automatically
      affiliate gets 20 bucks automatically.

      Then, a chargeback happens. If i settle the charge back and refund the payment,
      card user gets $40. Chargeback fee I absorb, of $25 ( i think.)
      processor returns their money to me.
      Affilaite does NOT get their payment returned to me. For what reason? i'm unsure. so in the end, I'm out a total of of 40 dollars for the product, $25 for the chargeback fee, and $20 paid to the affiliate. Make sense?


      Ouch!

      First, my condolences. So sorry you got hurt.

      Second, a few suggestions for simplifying.

      Sometimes a simpler, easier, step toward our own product line can be to start with smaller fees so that there's less incentive to chase us.

      Also, when we start with smaller product fees, we can figure out who are good affiliates (and customers). We can begin to track on a spreadsheet of people and organizations not to do business with.

      Because when we build a practice as solo professionals we need to find simple and easy ways to reduce our interactions with folks who don't fit in order to survive.
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    • Profile picture of the author entry
      What affiliate platform were you using ?

      and I dont follow where the sales were comming from (Besides affiliates) - I mean the customers.

      Why would many purchase, and request a refund? or was it some bot ?
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      I Have to say a Massive...THANK YOU to every Warrior who has helped me, and thanks to every warrior who helps me in the future...
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      • Profile picture of the author mattjay
        Originally Posted by entry View Post

        What affiliate platform were you using ?

        and I dont follow where the sales were comming from (Besides affiliates) - I mean the customers.

        Why would many purchase, and request a refund? or was it some bot ?
        as i stated previously, out of respect and the help I received, I am not going to name the platform. However, any platform that uses adaptive payments can leave you subject to this scam, if you don't use it properly and take precautions.

        As I said, the most likely explanation is that the affilaites who were sending the sales were using stolen credit card information. that surely seems to be the case. THEN, the card holder notices unusual activity on their account and charges back.

        Hope that makes sense. Thanks for your thoughts
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        • Profile picture of the author entry
          Cheers for sharing this,

          You are a brave gem.
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          I Have to say a Massive...THANK YOU to every Warrior who has helped me, and thanks to every warrior who helps me in the future...
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    My opinion is that you have to see that as not your money. I could be off, but: If you try to use counterfeit money, and it is noticed. the money is trash, you do not get reimbursed for that at all. Even if you are 100% unaware, you wont go to jail (probably). But, you are out that money.


    I see how paypal should be responsible to reimburse you for the chargeback fees from the fraudulent transactions, but I do not see them paying anything more.


    If you did, it would be a nice bonus though.

    Im just guessing that from your end, all of those transactions will be as if they never existed when its settled.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    we'll see how it all plays out. the real winner here is the fraudulent affilaite. Whatever they did, they did it very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author moreno
    Hi great post , i learn a lot .
    I never realize that it could be so dramatic......We really need to be careful , even with paypal cahrgeback.
    thanks for the infos
    Frank Moreno
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    yup. frightening stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    excellent thoughts, and they are appreciated.

    In hindsight, of course, I'll say it again :

    DON'T APPROVE AFFILIATES YOU DON'T KNOW ON INSTANT PAYMENTS, no matter how good they sound

    Thank you for posting your advice. Well said.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    Such a weird scenario but thanks for the heads up!

    I'm trying to figure out which affiliate applications to trust because of the commissions I'm offering I keep getting different applications from people I don't know...

    Thanks for the advice man, I'll have to be more careful now.

    Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    best advice i can give you:
    make sure if you approve requests you don't know, DELAYED PAYMENTS. That's the only answer, besides flat out reject them.

    That will keep this from happening with adaptive payment solutions

    thanks for your input,
    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

      best advice i can give you:
      make sure if you approve requests you don't know, DELAYED PAYMENTS. That's the only answer, besides flat out reject them.

      That will keep this from happening with adaptive payment solutions

      thanks for your input,
      Matt

      What I do is flat out reject them.

      No use messing around with delayed payments. May miss out on some potentially good sellers but if I can't find enough information about them or don't trust them, I don't want them promoting my product, anyway. Just easier for me.
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      • Profile picture of the author mattjay
        Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

        What I do is flat out reject them.

        No use messing around with delayed payments. May miss out on some potentially good sellers but if I can't find enough information about them or don't trust them, I don't want them promoting my product, anyway. Just easier for me.
        that's the best bet
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Did you report this to the cops (or whoever looks after online crime) in your area? I'm sure PayPal will be following proper procedures but it's also your responsibility to report crimes. It might seem insignificant now but at the end of the day it maybe crucial.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    This is something I brought up with paypal at the very beginning of all this. If they need me to provide information to my local police, I have no issue doing so. Since this is sort of an online crime whereby people are most likely using stolen credit card info, and the fact that I paid back every dollar i was given in a matter of weeks, it's unlikely my local police or sheriff's department can do much good. Paypal has made it clear to me that they are taking the fraud very, very seriously. Any steps they need me to take, I have made it clear I will follow. They have all the proof in the world necessary as do I, to not be liable for the charges. The best thing I could have done is refund every transaction before the chargebacks started coming and stay in contact with paypal daily. I recommend the same thing to anybody that has this issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    Hi - thanks for sharing this experience, it's too bad it happened. That's exactly the type of thing I was asking about in an earlier thread I'd started about "affiliate scams" in which I expressed concern about you pay them for sales and they chargeback phony orders, which seems a typical hazard:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...d-post-em.html

    That's reason #1 I haven't ever had a big affiliate network. Here's what I'll be doing this year: I will only accept affiliates from the USA, Canada, UK and Australia, and am considering requiring they send in a $1 paypal payment to confirm their identity, plus only allowing in affiliates from sites I recognize, and confirm w/whois iptools geolocation IP checks etc.

    I mean sheesh I would never blindly accept affiliates from questionable 3rd world countries who are total strangers... that sounds extremely hazardous and unwise, in my cautious opinion. I've signed up with shareasale, since they handle 1099s, don't know if anyone has experience with them? Working with a network that does some screening first, and even then doing secondary screening, seems like a smart idea.

    Personally I will never accept total strangers as affiliates, why on earth would people do that? I need to know who I'm doing business with, or having sell my stuff; that's something I never "got" when it came to IM, is that whole letting a bunch of strangers potentially rip you off like that, or send out non-FTC compliant spam emails, or set up stupid copycat longtail keyword "review" blog sites, or other bs that causes big problems.

    I still prefer old-school 90's affiliate jv approach, where you work with maybe 5-15 people you know, set up individual hard-coded landing pages customized for each one, during a launch. Avoids that "first cookie" bs tatooing which means only guys with huge lists get credited for significant sales, too.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    from paypal regarding the law enforcement issue:
    I'll be completely honest - you could report it to the FBI via http://IC3.gov , but since the amount is small (in their eyes), (more)



    1m they would likely just send a "thank you for your submission" and file it away If our teams think we can nail down the ID, we (more)






    1m do reach out to our law enforcement partners and take appropriate action

    As far as we said before with affliaites, concerning these adaptive solutions, the safest thing to do is just not accept them. Now granted, you may be giving up 10 million in sales from that magic, unkown affilaite. But you will also save your self WITHOUT A DOBUT from the trouble I got into.

    thanks for posting your thoughts.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Ah well, not trying to do anything negative but hurt the chances of it happening again. This is a mighty complex little scam, I hope nobody else falls for it.
    Thanks for your kind words.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    it is a pisser. I hope that paypal can track it all down, i know they have extensive resources. You would figure if they discover how extensive this scam is, they will take steps to put a stop to it. As for me, I'm just glad it's getting some attention and hope that somebody reads this thread carefully and avoids the same issues. Its pretty simple actually. If you wait till the chargebacks come in, it's too late.
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  • Profile picture of the author TrafficBot
    Affiliates are not the problem. The problem is people that are out there always trying to get something for nothing. You can have the best product on the planet but you will inevitably get those refunds and chargebacks. Its the cost of doing business on the internet. This has been a prevalent problem with clickbank for years but clickbank holds funds for and uses reserves in case of refunds and chargebacks. Paypal has a poor refund and chargeback system, period.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by TrafficBot View Post

      Affiliates are not the problem. The problem is people that are out there always trying to get something for nothing. You can have the best product on the planet but you will inevitably get those refunds and chargebacks. Its the cost of doing business on the internet. This has been a prevalent problem with clickbank for years but clickbank holds funds for and uses reserves in case of refunds and chargebacks. Paypal has a poor refund and chargeback system, period.
      in this particular case and scam structure, the problem is two fold. Approving affilaites, and most assuredly the fraudulent affilaites themselves. IF these guys weren't approved to sell my product, this whole thing wouldn't have happened, granted. However, they were the ones using bad info to make these purchases, not the unwitting credit card holders. I don't blame them one bit for charging back.
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  • Profile picture of the author esuresh
    You sharing this, has helped a lot of us not to fall for such a scam. Thanks a lot. I hope you will get your money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Thanks for your thoughts. That's the idea, try to prevent it from happening again.
    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    UPDATE paypal has been more than helpful to me in this difficult situation. If you need anything from paypal, you can always tweet @askpaypal, which is how i got a hold of them in this situation. thank you paypal, for your help
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    • Profile picture of the author 24hours
      Sorry for your trouble matt, but thanks foir posting this. I'm new to most of this stuff so threads like this are a great help.
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      • Profile picture of the author mattjay
        Originally Posted by 24hours View Post

        Sorry for your trouble matt, but thanks foir posting this. I'm new to most of this stuff so threads like this are a great help.
        hey 24, thanks. yeah I posted this story to try and keep it from happening to more people.
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  • Profile picture of the author art72
    Sorry for your losses.

    Good looking out man. I actually was excited to find out there were affiliate programs with instant payouts and was thinking when my products (ebooks, etc) were ready it would be a good way to recruit affiliates.

    Hearing this is a definite eye opener. While I'm not happy hearing so many people have found out the hard way, I'm grateful you have shed light to what can be a dark cituation. Doing so just saved some of us the hassle.

    Thanks Matt!!!

    All the Best,

    Art
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    Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!
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    • Profile picture of the author mattjay
      Originally Posted by art72 View Post

      Sorry for your losses.

      Good looking out man. I actually was excited to find out there were affiliate programs with instant payouts and was thinking when my products (ebooks, etc) were ready it would be a good way to recruit affiliates.

      Hearing this is a definite eye opener. While I'm not happy hearing so many people have found out the hard way, I'm grateful you have shed light to what can be a dark cituation. Doing so just saved some of us the hassle.

      Thanks Matt!!!

      All the Best,

      Art
      that is the idea. the bottom line is don't approve any affiliates you don't know on auto payments with the networks that provide an adaptive solution. If you do that, you will never have the same problem I did.
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      • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
        Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

        that is the idea. the bottom line is don't approve any affiliates you don't know on auto payments with the networks that provide an adaptive solution. If you do that, you will never have the same problem I did.
        Unless you know personally know the affiliate, I wouldn't generally suggest doing it at all. There's a reason all the major companies having waiting periods where commissions are pending.

        I had someone use the name Frank Kern to signup for my affiliate program, put his website as their main URL, and even emailed me letting me know they were him. They asked for commissions to be able to be released immediately and referred to how popular they were in the online industry. What they didn't know was that I can clearly see they signed up from an IP in Russia and entered a Chinese address on the registration form.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicolasmd2112
    I'm curious as to what affiliate platform you are using.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    It really doesn't matter, any major affiliate network has an adaptive payment solution. If you instant approve the wrong affiliate, you can be taken for a ride. So just don't instant approve any affiliates you don't know.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    lol good for you, Chase! Looks like you stopped them in their tracks

    I never had anybody use a famous affiliate's credentials on any of my products, but I can see how that would add to the scam. Thanks for sharing!

    matt
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    • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
      Originally Posted by mattjay View Post

      lol good for you, Chase! Looks like you stopped them in their tracks

      I never had anybody use a famous affiliate's credentials on any of my products, but I can see how that would add to the scam. Thanks for sharing!

      matt
      With that type of stuff I actually email their ISP to let them know about it and I believe they are required to report it to their local authorities for identify theft. Unfortunately, most of them are outside the US and in countries that don't take stuff like that seriously.

      I will admit that it can hurt sometimes by making affiliates wait to get paid because it will deter some of them from even signing up. But at the end of the day, I'd rather have less affiliates and know I'm safe when it comes to disputes.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    Indeed. Its true you may turn off some people, but oh well.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattjay
    I wanted to update everybody that paypal has provided me with the refunds that i requested from this situation. I suppose all is well that ends well. However, it took some doing. I ended up tweeting paypal and that's how we got in touch. The phone calls i kept making for a while there really didn't get me anywhere. So that's a thought...if you have some problems with paypal, try tweeting worked for me.
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