$4,000 in two days...the death of cheap WSOs

109 replies
Okay there's a few things I've learned over the years I've been coming
to the warrior forum...

# 1: Any thread with the words "the death of" in the title MIGHT have
some good information.

But somewhere in there you're going to read something really stupid!


# 2: Many of the threads that talk about someone's actual experience
making money can be really cool. And you can almost guarantee in
most cases it won't work for you...lol.

But here goes.


Over 5 years ago I ran a WSO where I offered to do 3 sales letters.

The deal was I would write each sales letter in 24 hours and the
buyers would have to pay me the full $1,000 fee in advance.

At the time I was charging $2,500 to $10,000 for one sales letter so
this was quite a bargain.

In 2 days 4 people took me up on the offer and it took me around a week
to write those 4 sales letters.

(I know I said 3 sales letters but the guy had paid me and really wanted
a sales letter written and it was a nice product so I took 4 clients instead
of 3...so arrest me).

All the clients seemed happy with their sales letters and I made a nice amount
of money for a week's very hard work.


What I think is interesting is that there are so many people running such cheap
WSOs and many of the products are really marginal (or in some cases a total
pile of...wooops nearly broke the forum rules).

If I was to give one tip to aspiring marketers it's this:

Think of a way to deliver more value.

Then charge more.


When you give a lot more you can charge a lot more.

If you really know your best customers you can think through what
they really want and need and then go out of your way to deliver
it.

Online this is easy.

You have audio, video, reports etc etc etc that can all be delivered
as digital downloads for a few cents in bandwidth.


Give your customers real solutions that work and charge a premium
price and they'll be happy they paid it.

Forget about cheap prices. They really don't help anyone.

Most warrior forum members would be better off buying one product
a year and really applying it.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh
#cheap #daysthe #death #wsos
  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    We used to make larger sales than we do now before the economy crashed. We still get some big fish at times, but we have focused successfully on people starting small businesses who invest money over time as we build a relationship with them. What has been good about this strategy is the continuous cash flow. I have found going for the big sale can often result in a more volatile balance sheet. It's great when it works, but I have been happy with the stability of building long term relationships. That said, I am not in the same business as you.
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  • Profile picture of the author smadronia
    Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post


    Most warrior forum members would be better off buying one product
    a year and really applying it.
    Cavanagh
    You seem to forget that many marketers (myself included) have a bad case of Marketer's ADD, or Ooh, Shiny Thing Syndrome.

    People want results quickly, and without a lot of work. So they'll continue to jump on inexpensive WSO's until they find their thing, or they burn out.

    I agree that selling a high quality product is the key to getting a higher price tag, but I also think you're limited in how many you can sell. Take your example, you sold 4 sales letters. That's no small chunk of change. But you didn't sell 100 of them.

    And that's where I think the market has shifted. It's quantity. If you sell 100 of a $10 item, it's only $1000, but you have 100 people who are primed to possibly buy more things from you. So many marketers, it's better to have 100 people who might buy from you again, than 4 people who may contact you for a higher priced offer.

    I think a mix of the two would work well, if you have the ability to pull it off. Maybe that's why coaching is so popular, folks buy a $10 or $50 product, and then some of them choose the $400 coaching as well. Or, they buy your $10 plr pack, and then hire you for another $300 in ghostwriting.

    Your post really reminds me I need to go study copywriting.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by smadronia View Post

      I agree that selling a high quality product is the key to getting a higher price tag, but I also think you're limited in how many you can sell. Take your example, you sold 4 sales letters. That's no small chunk of change. But you didn't sell 100 of them.
      Andrew never mentioned whether any of those four ever came back and bought another sales letter at his regular rates, did he?
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        Originally Posted by smadronia View Post

        You seem to forget that many marketers (myself included) have a bad case of Marketer's ADD, or Ooh, Shiny Thing Syndrome.

        People want results quickly, and without a lot of work. So they'll continue to jump on inexpensive WSO's until they find their thing, or they burn out.
        This isn't Shiny Object Syndrome. It's people who are truly stupid enough to believe that money magically falls out of the computer if you buy the right 'easy button' product. Sheer greed and laziness or a lottery mentality - nothing to do with marketer's ADD.

        But you didn't sell 100 of them.
        This is a moot point. He told us in the original post he was only selling 3. He clearly wasn't looking for volume.

        Maybe that's why coaching is so popular, folks buy a $10 or $50 product, and then some of them choose the $400 coaching as well.
        Coaching is so popular because people have realized that they can make more money teaching than they can doing what they teach. There are some great coaches out there, but the vast majority of 'coaches' you find in the WSO section either don't know what they're talking about because they've never actually done it or they don't truly know how to be a coach.
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        • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
          Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

          Coaching is so popular because people have realized that they can make more money teaching than they can doing what they teach. There are some great coaches out there, but the vast majority of 'coaches' you find in the WSO section either don't know what they're talking about because they've never actually done it or they don't truly know how to be a coach.
          Tina,

          That is very true....

          The problem with the "Coaches" is they sell "the dream" not reality...

          People buy "Coaching" thinking that will get them into the "secret club" or some "secrets" to make them wealthy. It does neither...

          The very best Coach I had was Warren Peterson. Oddly enough, he is not an "IM Guru" claiming to have a limitless fortune...

          He is THE real deal... a Professional Business Coach.

          If anyone is looking for a Coach, I would highly recommend him. Just be prepared to roll up your sleeves and do some work...

          All The Best,

          Rich Beck BCIP, MCSD, MCIS
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Andrew never mentioned whether any of those four ever came back and bought another sales letter at his regular rates, did he?
        Hey John that's a really great question and the answer is no.

        But had they come back to me I wouldn't have been able to
        take them as clients anyway.

        Shortly after doing this WSO I was swamped with work then
        there was the whole Offline Gold thing after that.

        To be fair it wasn't my intention to get them as long term
        clients.

        I didn't have a strategy...at the time I was taking around a week
        to write a sales letter and just wanted to see if I could write a
        great sales letter in 24-48 hours.

        I found the quality wasn't much different so there's an argument to
        be made for writing faster.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
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        • That's the same reason I started selling real estate in 2007. To make high ticket sales.

          You give your prospect something for free first. Like in the case of real estate, the free market valuation is the free gift.

          Then once you infront of your prospect in the comfort of their own home, you build report in that free valuation and get to sell the property for the now client once they sign your sole & exclusive mandate. Which results in you making a high ticket sale/commission of let's say $11957 per sale depending on the area the piece of real estate is located.

          It's like giving them the opportunity to test driving a brand new BMW and watch them sign the papers to purchase it as soon as they get back to the showroom

          The demand for something will easily drive up the price point of a service or digital product.

          Everyone knows by now that the internet is online real estate. Even creating a good coaching program that solves a problem like copywriting could add another $1000+ to your bottom line per sale if you offering high quality content.

          So yes I agree with you Andrew
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by smadronia View Post

      I agree that selling a high quality product is the key to getting a higher price tag, but I also think you're limited in how many you can sell. Take your example, you sold 4 sales letters. That's no small chunk of change. But you didn't sell 100 of them.

      And that's where I think the market has shifted. It's quantity. If you sell 100 of a $10 item, it's only $1000, but you have 100 people who are primed to possibly buy more things from you. So many marketers, it's better to have 100 people who might buy from you again, than 4 people who may contact you for a higher priced offer.

      I think a mix of the two would work well, if you have the ability to pull it off. Maybe that's why coaching is so popular, folks buy a $10 or $50 product, and then some of them choose the $400 coaching as well. Or, they buy your $10 plr pack, and then hire you for another $300 in ghostwriting.

      Your post really reminds me I need to go study copywriting.

      "it's better to have 100 people who might buy from you again, than 4 people who may contact you for a higher priced offer."

      I'm pretty sure you're better off having 4 people who've bought from you
      at $1,000.

      Even if they buy from you again at $1,000 that's another $4,000.

      Ideally if you create a product and service funnel it's not an either/or
      question...you have 100 clients at $20 to $100 price point and 4 clients
      at $1,000.

      Then maybe one client at $5,000 to $10,000.


      Also getting $300 in ghostwriting fees really sucks.

      I've turned down $4,000-$5,000 ghostwriting offers because I was making
      way more than that for less effort writing sales letters.

      Most copywriters REALLY need to focus on delivering value and
      mastering some marketing fundamentals.

      The difference in income between the average level online article
      copywriter and the average direct response sales letter writer is
      massive and the reason is that one is bringing in a ton of value
      and the other is only delivering tiny amounts of value.

      You really want to be the person delivering massive value.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author smadronia
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        "it's better to have 100 people who might buy from you again, than 4 people who may contact you for a higher priced offer."

        I'm pretty sure you're better off having 4 people who've bought from you
        at $1,000.

        Even if they buy from you again at $1,000 that's another $4,000.

        Ideally if you create a product and service funnel it's not an either/or
        question...you have 100 clients at $20 to $100 price point and 4 clients
        at $1,000.

        The difference in income between the average level online article
        copywriter and the average direct response sales letter writer is
        massive and the reason is that one is bringing in a ton of value
        and the other is only delivering tiny amounts of value.

        You really want to be the person delivering massive value.
        I agree with you that I'd rather have 4 people purchase $1000 services from me, than 100 purchasing a $20 service. But, I don't know if most marketers would agree, largely because they may not feel they can provide a $1000 service. So, for those who aren't selecting a few clients, they larger list is better to them. Better being in the eye of the beholder.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    yea, takes just as much effort to sell a $1000 product as it does to sell a $27 product. but make sure you include $1000 of value in that product!
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  • Profile picture of the author AppsFromHome
    This is true not only on the Warrior Forum, but across the internet.

    You don't see as many $1,997 launches anymore from the big wig marketers - the landscape has changed.

    Is it for better or worse? That's up for debate.

    However, with such an information overload now it's difficult to find the time to sift through so many new courses and techniques.

    I chalk it up to research and development for my business and even if I can get one or two new ideas for my business, it's a success.
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    • Profile picture of the author LillySage
      Originally Posted by SDotSpells View Post

      This is true not only on the Warrior Forum, but across the internet.

      You don't see as many $1,997 launches anymore from the big wig marketers - the landscape has changed.

      Is it for better or worse? That's up for debate.

      However, with such an information overload now it's difficult to find the time to sift through so many new courses and techniques.

      I chalk it up to research and development for my business and even if I can get one or two new ideas for my business, it's a success.
      That's true...though as someone who's bought their fair share of those big name $1,997 courses...I've ALWAYS been disappointed. I've never received more value in one of them then I did from say, a $12 copy of Caples Tested Advertising Methods from Amazon.com or a free copy of Claude Hopkins Life in Advertising.... Not sure what point I'm trying to make! :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author nicholasb
    all of my most profitable wsos were the higher priced ones, I've sold $197 wsos, $97 wsos. I'm currently selling a $297 wso

    Lets put it this way, I've had wso of the day 3 times with lower priced offers, and still didn't make as much as I did with higher priced WSO's
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by nicholasb View Post

      all of my most profitable wsos were the higher priced ones, I've sold $197 wsos, $97 wsos. I'm currently selling a $297 wso

      Lets put it this way, I've had wso of the day 3 times with lower priced offers, and still didn't make as much as I did with higher priced WSO's
      What a lot of warrior forum members don't realize is that there's an
      "elite" group of warriors who are making VERY serious incomes and
      rarely post here.

      But they do come regularly and see what's going on looking for new
      ideas and to keep their finger on the pulse of internet marketing
      trends.

      I've noticed these guys buy my products over and over (all of them)
      and they will happily pay quite high prices for products and services
      they see have real value.

      There are some huge names in marketing who haunt these forums
      and some people who have monster businesses.

      If all you're going to cater to is cheap low end buyers you are
      going to be spinning your wheels making a pittance compared to
      what you could be making if you also had higher priced offers.


      Think of every information product you produce as a lead generator.

      You might have a free report, video or audio that generates leads for your...
      $47 ebook or audio that generates leads for your...
      $97 to $197 audio program with workbook which generates leads for your...
      $497 to $997 full program with consultation which generates leads for your...
      $1,497 to $2,497 seminar or workshop which generates leads for your...
      $2,997 to $5,997+ mentoring program.


      One other point.

      If you're charging more you're more likely to deliver more of your time to
      the people who buy from you (hopefully).

      Put another way if you sell a $5,000 service you're going to feel obliged
      to take the time to really help the person who bought from you.

      And you're going to have more time to invest with each client.


      It has been my experience that the people who are just scraping by
      are convinced that charging less and discounting is a great strategy.

      And the people who are making really great incomes are focused on
      providing a premium product or service and charging premium prices.

      This is true of most businesses.


      Many people say "well look at how successful Walmart and other discount
      stores are with all their volume."

      But are they really?

      To look at the success of a business in profit terms you need to examine
      return on investment.

      Walmart makes around 3.6% profit as a percentage of revenue.

      And they have hundreds of billions of dollars tied up in buildings and
      inventory to make a tiny fraction of that in profit.

      Given your resources as a small business owner if you try to follow this
      model you're going to make a pittance.

      It makes a whole lot more sense to build something that's unique,
      truly valuable to your clients and to charge a premium.

      This is the model most of the stable, highly profitable small businesses
      are following in one way or another.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author howtogurus
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post


        Think of every information product you produce as a lead generator.

        You might have a free report, video or audio that generates leads for your...
        $47 ebook or audio that generates leads for your...
        $97 to $197 audio program with workbook which generates leads for your...
        $497 to $997 full program with consultation which generates leads for your...
        $1,497 to $2,497 seminar or workshop which generates leads for your...
        $2,997 to $5,997+ mentoring program.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        Great comment Andrew. You always have to be thinking about how to use your current sales to generate more sales. Repeat customers are the best, and if you can upsell them all the better.
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      • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post



        And the people who are making really great incomes are focused on
        providing a premium product or service and charging premium prices.

        This is true of most businesses.

        Yes but aren't people more use to being sold lies, bullshit and garbage... dressed up as premium products or services?

        In a sad and twisted way... don't they trust lies and garbage more?

        Our media sells us garbage.
        Our politicians sell us garbage.
        Our fast food chains sell us garbage.
        Our big pharma industries sell us garbage.
        Our apples and targets sell us bs and garbage.

        Maybe this sounds terribly pessimistic, but it does make the most sense to me. I'm not saying that everyone should go around selling bs and garbage.

        I think the most important part is simply finding people who are willing to buy your stuff, whether its true premium quality, or true premium garbage.

        I know some incredible companies, providing incredible services, who are nearly going bankrupt. Then I know companies selling garbage, who are making a fortune. Companies like apple who have mastered techniques like "planned obsolescence". Just make sure our premium garbage breaks down in less a year, so people can buy more garbage from us. We'll give it a fancy box, and a hard and shiny casing, with the insides built out of conductive feathers.

        I bought 4 premium, name branded IPODS, 4 in 4 years. Then I bought a noname wannabe ipod, for 1/4 the price, that lasted twice as long.

        So in a way, I don't really trust premium brands (not just based on that 1 experience btw).
        I can't imagine that I'm the only one.

        I think Dan Kennedy is a genius. But I think his most substantial point, was in regards to premium positioning. The perception of quality, rather than the production of quality.

        Finally, I'm not sure that the greatest income producers are even focused on premium positioning. How does Target fit into that? Or Walmart?

        I think they are smart enough to understand, that people have more trust for garbage, so thats what they sell them the most of.

        As much cheap garbage as humanly possible.

        I think premium positioning is an intelligent way to market yourself. But as far as producing the most income, I definitely don't think you need to sell premium quality.

        The most successful businesses, seem to have the largest market reach. And to do that properly, you have to sell a minority of premium products/services, and a majority of sh#t.

        -Red
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

          Finally, I'm not sure that the greatest income producers are even focused on premium positioning. How does Target fit into that? Or Walmart?

          I mentioned this in a previous post.

          Many people think of discount stores like Target and
          Walmart as successful businesses but when you start
          looking at their return on investment you realize that
          they really suck.

          You get more return on money in a bank account.

          I don't think anyone in this forum has billions of dollars
          to invest and even if you did would you really want to
          get less than 5% return on it?


          Your post points out an underlying truth...if a huge
          percentage of the vendors are selling garbage in
          various forms and you sell a quality product or
          service you're going to be doing business for a
          long time.

          The rule of marketing still applies though.

          You need to have a marketing system to sell your
          quality products and services.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author brutecky
      Originally Posted by nicholasb View Post

      Lets put it this way, I've had wso of the day 3 times with lower priced offers, and still didn't make as much as I did with higher priced WSO's
      Thats because WSO of the day or JVZoo POTD are not necessarily a good thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Andrew...

    This is a thread of win. Great advice and oh so true.

    Of course this guarantees that it will fall off to page 458 in about 48 hours. lol.

    Best,

    Sal

    EDIT: The quicker people realize that they need a higher priced back end product to make the numbers work... the better they'll be.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnjaymiami
    This is very true.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Gates
    I agree. Personally, I NEVER compromise quality for price so I kind of "expect" my customers to do the same
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    Producing extra value is great, but people become "SPOILED" and end up expecting lots for next to nothing.

    Currently I have several live WSO's and all of them are under priced and deliver lots of value, compared to other WSO's. Desiging graphics is not fast nor easy, compared to say an ebook or some new technique explained in a video or webinar.

    At some point you have to draw the line. Stop giving the farm away, do your best work, deliver HONEST extra value at a reasonable price and that's it.

    I do not believe that it is a good thing for Internet Marketers to keep giving and giving and giving and giving and giving and those buying expecting to pay next to nothing. It builds a very, very, very bad buying habit and expectation from others. They end up being over spoiled.

    Our government (the USA) has this same mentality when it comes to our budget. Spend, spend, spend, spend, with no accountability at all, and then tax, tax, tax, expecting to make up the difference.

    The flaw in this type of mindset is that where does it STOP? If you keep giving or the case of (the US Govt) taking, you will eventually make it impossible to make a living or allow people to make a living.

    So, my whole point is STOP giving away toooo much, be honest, give extra value, but do not over spoil people, it will eventually bite you in the butt, and the whole internet marketing concept in the butt, especially the WSO section, which as many of you know, has been happening for quite sometime now.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Steve Wells View Post

      do your best work, deliver HONEST extra value at a reasonable price and that's it.
      Great point. Or put another way do exceptional work and charge a premium
      price based around the high value you deliver.

      If the only strategy the rest of the market has is discounting and
      you're the only vendor charging a premium price for a premium service
      you have no competition.

      There are a good number of people smart enough to look for a premium
      solution from someone they know will deliver value.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    There are a good number of people smart enough to look for a premium
    solution from someone they know will deliver value.
    Good Point. That's why I think its important to build not just value for you product but also trust. You want people to be able to put trust in your product so they value it more. Some of that is just giving them that little extra something to start that connection.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Chad Kimball View Post

      yea, takes just as much effort to sell a $1000 product as it does to sell a $27 product. but make sure you include $1000 of value in that product!
      Originally Posted by Chad Kimball View Post

      I think its important to build not just value for you product but also trust. You want people to be able to put trust in your product so they value it more. Some of that is just giving them that little extra something to start that connection.

      Both really important principles.

      The reverse side of this is that if you don't deliver then you've
      killed that relationship forever and with the effort and cost of
      acquiring a new customer being so high it's craziness not to
      put in some serious effort to deliver.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Times have and are changing.

    There is a massive dollar store mentality everywhere in society nowadays.

    With the way the economy is people feel a lot more comfortable in making many small purchases rather than few big purchases.

    It's just the way things are now and why sites such as fiverr, daily deal sites, and the WSO forum are so popular.

    You can try and fight it or just realize it for what it is and take advantage of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Times have and are changing.

      There is a massive dollar store mentality everywhere in society nowadays.

      With the way the economy is people feel a lot more comfortable in making many small purchases rather than few big purchases.
      There's some truth to this but it actually demonstrates why
      the point I'm making is so crucial.

      People have been losing money with this mentality for decades.

      It has nothing to do with the economy or society.

      They said the same thing during the great depression yet there
      were plenty of people who got rich selling high end products and
      services.

      In fact when times are tough it is usually the wealthy who have
      money to spend.

      You didn't get wealthy during the great depression selling apples
      or shoe shines on the corner for 2 cents to your fellow unemployed.

      But wealthy people had more money to spend than before the
      Great Depression began.


      If you really believe that everyone is looking for a discount deal
      then you may need to examine your own preconceptions because
      the reality is very different.

      There is always a subset of society who are looking for premium
      solutions and are willing to pay for them.

      The really cool statement "we are the 95%" by definition means
      there is a 5%.

      And the other half of that statement is that the 5% have 95%
      of the wealth.

      There's nothing wrong with catering to the low end of the market
      but if that's all you do then your return on investment and your
      return for effort will both be very low compared to your return if
      you also target the high end of the market.

      Are you trying to get your portion of 5% of the wealth in the
      world or are you smart enough to tap into the 95%?

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        There's some truth to this but it actually demonstrates why
        the point I'm making is so crucial.

        People have been losing money with this mentality for decades.

        It has nothing to do with the economy or society.

        They said the same thing during the great depression yet there
        were plenty of people who got rich selling high end products and
        services.

        In fact when times are tough it is usually the wealthy who have
        money to spend.

        You didn't get wealthy during the great depression selling apples
        or shoe shines on the corner for 2 cents to your fellow unemployed.

        But wealthy people had more money to spend than before the
        Great Depression began.


        If you really believe that everyone is looking for a discount deal
        then you may need to examine your own preconceptions because
        the reality is very different.

        There is always a subset of society who are looking for premium
        solutions and are willing to pay for them.

        The really cool statement "we are the 95%" by definition means
        there is a 5%.

        And the other half of that statement is that the 5% have 95%
        of the wealth.

        There's nothing wrong with catering to the low end of the market
        but if that's all you do then your return on investment and your
        return for effort will both be very low compared to your return if
        you also target the high end of the market.

        Are you trying to get your portion of 5% of the wealth in the
        world or are you smart enough to tap into the 95%?

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        Andrew,

        I never said this is what my business is based on, I said this is the mentality of society these days -- there is no questioning that. Statistics back up those thoughts that buying patterns have changed over the last few years.

        Yes, there will always be people with money and there will always be people with little money. There will always be those who cater to the high end of society and those who cater to the rest.

        I was simply making a point that buying patterns have changed and on the whole, majority of people nowadays are more comfortable making more frequent smaller purchases rather than big ones.

        Nothing is dead, don't worry.

        Sites like fiverr would be making a HUGE amount of money taking advantage of this dollar store buying pattern as would sites like the Warrior Forum, Warrior Plus, etc.

        So yes, there is plenty of money to be made by recognizing the pattern AND taking advantage of it.

        You can go after the high-end clients, sure, but that's not to say there isn't a ton of money in the low end of the market. There is PLENTY there.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Interesting points from Andrew and Will.

    The way I see it is whilst both have merit, dollar shoppers usually won't spend more. For example, $27 seems to be the price ceiling on WSO's and by it's nature it is a discount store.

    So yes, you need a front and back end as Andrew states.

    Bottom line is that we all trade time for money, so you may as well get the best return per minute.

    Sal.

    PS: Will if everyone was a bargain shopper, Kia and Great wall would be the top selling car in Aus. As people's incomes allow, they will go for higher value products.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      dollar shoppers usually won't spend more.
      Often they simply don't have the money to spend more even if
      they wanted to.

      While a person who has millions of dollars in assets or a really
      substantial income has no real top end in terms of the amount
      of money he might pay you for services that have real value.

      In other words you're never going to get your prices or fees
      to the point where he can't afford something you're offering.


      I had a copywriting client a few years ago who went from
      zero when I met him (NO income from his business) to over
      a million dollars in profit in under a year.

      He was charging clients $40,000 a year for consulting.

      And his consulting was worth many, many times that to his
      clients.

      Instead of that maybe he should have put together a series
      of WSO dime sales to see how much he could make in a year!

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author khooster1
    I agreed with the guys.

    There are no more 997US sales.
    Things are getting too cheap.

    However, the IM market grew substantially over the years.
    What we have is a huge market of hungry marketers.

    We have to create products/services that are of reasonable prices to give them started.
    No point dwelling over the situation. We just have to adapt it and live our Internet Dream.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by nicholasb View Post

      all of my most profitable wsos were the higher priced ones, I've sold $197 wsos, $97 wsos. I'm currently selling a $297 wso

      Lets put it this way, I've had wso of the day 3 times with lower priced offers, and still didn't make as much as I did with higher priced WSO's
      Originally Posted by khooster1 View Post

      I agreed with the guys.

      There are no more 997US sales.
      Things are getting too cheap.

      It seems that $197 and $297 wsos are selling just fine.

      I often need to ask myself "am I just assuming that my prospects
      won't happily pay much more for this product?"

      One very common thing I see is that people who are not making
      a whole lot of money (and I don't mean that in any derogatory way)
      is that they find it hard to believe anyone would pay a high price
      for a product or service because they wouldn't.

      Sometimes you can stand in your own way.

      There's usually a lot more money out there than you think.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Just remember what Willie Sutton said when asked why he kept robbing banks...

        "That's where they keep the money."
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Just remember what Willie Sutton said when asked why he kept robbing banks...

          "That's where they keep the money."
          The really funny thing is he claimed he never said that.

          Apparently a reporter made it up to bulk out a story he
          was writing (exact article length was a much bigger issue
          for writers back before digital publishing).


          He did say: "Go where the money is...and go there often"
          which may be even more appropriate for this thread.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Here's a great video from Dan Kennedy on the topic of price and
    people being more price sensitive in this economic climate...

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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    Nice post, OP. It does seem really easy to fall into the trap of charging too little for a valuable product or service.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Nice video from DK that everyone should watch IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    I TOTALLY agree Andrew!

    But I disagree about doing WSOs. I refuse to do them because of the bottom-of-the-barrel poverty mentality of most Warriors here. The WSO forum shows you just how low it can take you.

    Your advice is spot on and I'd recommend it to anyone marketing anything. Other than my book, my lowest-priced item is $197 -- and I won't go lower than that (unless it's for future books).

    There will always be a subset of the population looking for a bargain and further, those for whom price reigns above all else, even the quality of what they're buying. Broadly, I believe WSO shoppers fall into this category. So I refuse to sell to them. A one-time bargain is one thing. But WSO shoppers are accustomed to and expecting everything for $7 or $17. It's insane!

    (To add insult to injury, these shoppers like to complain -- loudly -- about how it's all a scam and they're not making any money. )

    I'm not a K-mart blue light special. I might do a WSO in the future, but for now, I flat out refuse.

    I've also bought a few (very few) WSOs years ago, but I got what I paid for. I eventually moved off the Warrior Forum entirely to find what I needed. I've paid thousands and thousands of dollars over the last few years for good information and coaching ($9.5K last year alone).

    Again, I got what I paid for.

    Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author Niko A Berezkin
    Could not agree more. A good solid product is worth 1,000 sub marginal. Plus I feel if you spend a pretty $$$ on a course, you are much much much more likely to follow through with all that you have learned, as opposed to just moving on to the next thing. Some great points there.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Nikita A Beriozkin View Post

      Could not agree more. A good solid product is worth 1,000 sub marginal. Plus I feel if you spend a pretty $$$ on a course, you are much much much more likely to follow through with all that you have learned, as opposed to just moving on to the next thing. Some great points there.

      Yes it's a psychological fact.

      Several studies have shown the more you pay for a product the higher
      your opinion of its value and the more likely you are to use it.


      Here's another way of looking at this.

      There are a TON of people on this forum who would love to make themselves
      a good living doing internet marketing in some way.

      The reality is the average person is not going to make the money they want and
      need with a WSO.

      If you're giving them a full solution (and I'm not just talking about coaching...I
      mean a full commitment to helping them get to where they want to go)...the
      price level you can charge at is very high.

      And your service would be worth it (obviously).


      The predominant thinking seems to be "people don't have a lot of money so
      I'll charge $10" instead of "if I help these people to make thousands of dollars
      a month they can afford to pay me some really good money and they'll be
      happy to do it."

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        The predominant thinking seems to be "people don't have a lot of money so
        I'll charge $10" instead of "if I help these people to make thousands of dollars
        a month they can afford to pay me some really good money and they'll be
        happy to do it."

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        It's a bit of a generalization.

        There are also those people who realize people do not have a ton of money to spend in this economy and do want to genuinely help people succeed and so they do offer complete solutions and training but they don't charge a heap of money for it.

        It's not always about the money... for some it is. For others they get more satisfaction helping others succeed and focus less on charing people high prices.

        I did also notice all the products in your signature are either free or less than $30.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    In complete agreement!

    It's all about delivering value and then having your customers take action on the product.

    In your case you were offering a service so they were obviously going to use the copy you wrote them haha but I completely agree with the fact that warriors would be better off buying very few wso's and taking action on what they do learn.

    It's the classic 4:1 principle. 4 hours of doing to 1 hour of learning
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  • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
    This just reminded me of Frank Kern's recent series of emails claiming he is getting out of IM for awhile (going to focus on one-on-one coaching, he said) and giving his Mass Control at half price, which is still a huge sum at $997. lol.

    If 1 small payment buyer is worth 10 times what a freebie buyer is worth, I have no doubt 1 big payment buyer is worth 100 times or more.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    One thing overlooked here is the life time value of your customer. Andrew is correct that at either price level, you still need a good marketing system in place. Low price products are ok, but only if you can continue to sell these existing customers an ongoing product to make the metrics work.

    There is no disputing that you can make money at both levels, but we cannot ignore leverage in all this as well as your cost per lead.

    Now I totally understand if people have never heard of metrics, lifetime value and cost per lead on here because they are 3 very rare phrases spoken about on the forum.

    With WSO's your advertising is only $40 unless you bump. But you still have to add the value of your time as well any other costs to calculate your break even point. So in a sense if it sells its nuts off, you get a great ROI. But if it fails, you have less chance of breaking even on your venture.

    Nightengale makes valid observations. So does Dan Kennedy... and frankly if I had to choose whom I listen to for advice in this matter... Dan wins hands down.

    Sorry but people can be naive and / or ignorant. It's been proven time and again that people have price limits which are usually set at the $10, $50 or $100 etc.

    In my many years selling real estate, this was often the case where someone would bid at $300k and walk away, and the person who bid $301k bought the house.

    So I don't even see the logic of charging $7 for a wso. Why not charge $9.97? People don't realize how much money they leave on the table. Not sure if it's laziness or they simply don't believe in their product enough.

    But I do digress.

    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Now I totally understand if people have never heard of metrics, lifetime value and cost per lead on here because they are 3 very rare phrases spoken about on the forum.
      That's a little scary since this is a MARKETING forum and those are
      very basic, core marketing principles.

      You're right though.

      Most members here are focusing on the latest Facebook trick or how
      to overcome the Panda update.

      There's little to no overall marketing strategy going on.



      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      I don't even see the logic of charging $7 for a wso. Why not charge $9.97? People don't realize how much money they leave on the table. Not sure if it's laziness or they simply don't believe in their product enough.
      Or they're not going out of their way to deliver enough value
      to justify the higher price.

      Ultimately what you can charge successfully does come down to
      the value of your product or service to your customer and successfully
      establishing that value with them.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        That's a little scary since this is a MARKETING forum and those are
        very basic, core marketing principles.

        You're right though.

        Most members here are focusing on the latest Facebook trick or how
        to overcome the Panda update.

        There's little to no overall marketing strategy going on.





        Or they're not going out of their way to deliver enough value
        to justify the higher price.

        Ultimately what you can charge successfully does come down to
        the value of your product or service to your customer and successfully
        establishing that value with them.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        I think there are 2 types of sellers...

        You have those that don't care and just see the dollar signs. Their goal is to create quick products that they can churn. They could also be non-experts who simply cannot offer products or services that get real results.

        Mixed in you have those who twist the numbers to suit their sales copy, like I made $300 in 15 minutes for example. They had 1 hit and base their entire cred and product around it... never a mention of expenses and failures.

        Then if it sells well, they create another product claiming that they can teach you to make thousands selling wso's.

        Then you have the experts who sell based on their track record. These are the ones who can charge high prices because they can back themselves in to get results for their customers.

        People who have the experience, understand the true value of what they offer their clients - simple.

        The rest have to please themselves at the bottom end... with those who take the time and effort to create better products sit in the $47 to $97 price range.

        As for buyers? well people who buy cheap products hoping they will make them rich are nothing more than online gamblers.

        ... in my humble opinion only.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Now I totally understand if people have never heard of metrics, lifetime value and cost per lead on here because they are 3 very rare phrases spoken about on the forum.
      That's because they are so fundamental to marketing that anyone who does not know them just has not done any work in educating themselves.

      These are marketing 101. Foundation information. The most basic marketing level you can get.

      They ARE spoken about here, I know because I've mentioned them 100's of times myself, but those things are so basic that if someone has not learned enough about marketing to know those terms then they're nothing more than a newbie and definitely can't call themselves a marketer.

      People are supposed to help themselves, if they come here saying they're a marketer and haven't given themselves some basic grounding then that's their own fault.

      There's no excuse for anyone not to understand basic marketing principles - the information is there at a quick search on Google.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        That's because they are so fundamental to marketing that anyone who does not know them just has not done any work in educating themselves.

        These are marketing 101. Foundation information. The most basic marketing level you can get.

        They ARE spoken about here, I know because I've mentioned them 100's of times myself, but those things are so basic that if someone has not learned enough about marketing to know those terms then they're nothing more than a newbie and definitely can't call themselves a marketer.

        People are supposed to help themselves, if they come here saying they're a marketer and haven't given themselves some basic grounding then that's their own fault.

        There's no excuse for anyone not to understand basic marketing principles - the information is there at a quick search on Google.
        To be honest with you, this is not a strong point of mine.

        This is coming from someone that used to work in marketing before I started online.

        All I try to do is get more coming in then is going out.

        I focus on creating quality products as much as I can then finding out where my market is online and getting as many customers as I can.

        I then focus on how to offer more value to existing customers.

        As long as my conversions are good and I have customers that is pretty much my main concerns.

        I WISH I had spent more time on the marketing terminology but it is just all figures, percentages and numbers to me.

        As long as you are making profits and not losses you are good in my book.

        Honestly I nearly drove my accountant mad when I went LTD and he was explaining dividends to me and how a good will loan to the company works.

        My advice to anyone starting out:

        "Just focus on finding a need/problem - find a solution - offer that solution to as many people with the problem as you can."

        Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    Nice video Andrew. I especially like the horrible and random opening haha.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      I thought the harness racing at the end was entertaining.

      I'm not sure how that got in there.

      Dan Kennedy is a funny guy.

      There's on seminar where he introduces Jim Polish as a
      "deeply troubled young man."

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author malcsimm
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        Forget about cheap prices. They really don't help anyone. Andrew Cavanagh
        The hot money is on "high ticket" these days, sure enough; and I can see the point. If you really can deliver excellent quality and get people results – the important point – then enough people will pay one, two, $3000 – even monthly – if you really get the result. And I'm not talking one-to-one coaching here – that's far too time-consuming.

        Getting results for people with group coaching seems to be where it's at. And enough people are making it work – and giving value. (And I'm not talking about the hit-and-run merchants like "The Syndicate", et cetera. I'm talking about real value.

        The thing with high ticket, if you do it right, is that people paying a LOT of money generally will have a zero or negligible refund rate.

        These people will also tend to be action takers – so you're not left trying to get blood out of a stone.

        And also they tend not to be the whingy, moaney: "Is that all I get for my 17 bucks?" crowd - they are more realistic.

        So, for many reasons, the moneyed crowd is the one to go after. And they are always there even in an economic downturn.

        I'll have my high ticket coaching in place as soon as my website content and email funnel are up to snuff, to back it up. Can't wait!

        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        This isn't Shiny Object Syndrome. It's people who are truly stupid enough to believe that money magically falls out of the computer if you buy the right 'easy button' product. Sheer greed and laziness or a lottery mentality - nothing to do with marketer's ADD.
        Wow! That's a bit of a tirade, Tina!

        I suppose we've all been in that stupid space. But it doesn't help people to be told that's what they are doing.

        The "get rich quick" crowd has always been there since the invention of money, and probably before. But we can't help having hot buttons. Primarily, I blame the ethics of the sleazy marketers who take advantage of these poor saps – who we all used to be too.

        And these are not just the usual suspects - "make money with 3 clicks", etc etc but also marketers of all sorts of other ancillary products who push those hot buttons to sell products that are next to useless for their non-sophisticated buyers.

        Sure, some people are lazy. But others are hard-working but just a bit gullible. I get a buzz out of trying to spread awareness of this fact to as many people as possible.

        I guess that 99% of Internet marketers will never make decent monthly money. But I'm sure that the minority of those are lazy; just unlucky and taken advantage of.

        Malc
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by malcsimm View Post

          The thing with high ticket, if you do it right, is that people paying a LOT of money generally will have a zero or negligible refund rate.

          These people will also tend to be action takers - so you're not left trying to get blood out of a stone.

          And also they tend not to be the whingy, moaney: "Is that all I get for my 17 bucks?" crowd - they are more realistic.

          So, for many reasons, the moneyed crowd is the one to go after. And they are always there even in an economic downturn.


          Very true.

          It's very frustrating working with people who don't take action
          (which unfortunately is the majority of people in the "make
          money" niche).

          When you work with people who do take rapid action and
          put everything they have into it it's a real pleasure.

          People like that inevitably get results one way or the other.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Here's another video on how you can charge more...for less...



    You have to listen 2/3rds of the way through this video to get the
    message.

    More specifically laser focusing your marketing on the things you do
    and the things in your product that are truly 5 star exceptional and
    not talking about the things that are not exceptional.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

    # 1: Any thread with the words "the death of" in the title MIGHT have
    some good information.

    But somewhere in there you're going to read something really stupid!
    Was that a self-fulfilling prophecy due to the title of your thread ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

    Okay there's a few things I've learned over the years I've been coming
    to the warrior forum...

    # 1: Any thread with the words "the death of" in the title MIGHT have
    some good information.

    But somewhere in there you're going to read something really stupid!


    # 2: Many of the threads that talk about someone's actual experience
    making money can be really cool. And you can almost guarantee in
    most cases it won't work for you...lol.

    But here goes.


    Over 5 years ago I ran a WSO where I offered to do 3 sales letters.

    The deal was I would write each sales letter in 24 hours and the
    buyers would have to pay me the full $1,000 fee in advance.

    At the time I was charging $2,500 to $10,000 for one sales letter so
    this was quite a bargain.

    In 2 days 4 people took me up on the offer and it took me around a week
    to write those 4 sales letters.

    (I know I said 3 sales letters but the guy had paid me and really wanted
    a sales letter written and it was a nice product so I took 4 clients instead
    of 3...so arrest me).

    All the clients seemed happy with their sales letters and I made a nice amount
    of money for a week's very hard work.


    What I think is interesting is that there are so many people running such cheap
    WSOs and many of the products are really marginal (or in some cases a total
    pile of...wooops nearly broke the forum rules).

    If I was to give one tip to aspiring marketers it's this:

    Think of a way to deliver more value.

    Then charge more.


    When you give a lot more you can charge a lot more.

    If you really know your best customers you can think through what
    they really want and need and then go out of your way to deliver
    it.

    Online this is easy.

    You have audio, video, reports etc etc etc that can all be delivered
    as digital downloads for a few cents in bandwidth.


    Give your customers real solutions that work and charge a premium
    price and they'll be happy they paid it.

    Forget about cheap prices. They really don't help anyone.

    Most warrior forum members would be better off buying one product
    a year and really applying it.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
    Awesome post Andrew,

    It really is that simple.

    This is pretty much in the book Paul Mckenna "How to get rich" book as well and an interesting point that was bought up was this:

    "Imagine you are waiting for a job interview for a position you are over qualified for and you know you are going to get the job.

    The job is for $50,000 a year and it is your dream job.

    You are really confident.

    But then...

    As you approach the door there is a note on the door saying the job pays $500,000 a year.

    Do you still feel as confident?"

    Some people are uncomfortable earning more or charging more - I know it sounds weird but it is true.
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    • Profile picture of the author kolbywhite28
      Originally Posted by Chri5123 View Post

      But then...

      As you approach the door there is a note on the door saying the job pays $500,000 a year.
      I would have immediately walked away from the interview. They are trying to scam me or something.
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Originally Posted by kolbywhite28 View Post

        I would have immediately walked away from the interview. They are trying to scam me or something.
        That's an interesting reaction.

        Could be some truth in it but it could also point to a lack
        of self belief (in other words..."how could my work
        possibly be worth $500,000 a year to a company?)

        If you already knew you were overqualified for the job that
        suggests you'd already done some background research on
        the company.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Chri5123 View Post

      But then...

      As you approach the door there is a note on the door saying the job pays $500,000 a year.

      Do you still feel as confident?"

      Some people are uncomfortable earning more or charging more - I know it sounds weird but it is true.
      That is so true.

      I think this is a big problem for many people getting into this business who have not had a career or job earning a high salary before - they don't value themselves and they don't understand why anyone else would.

      I have had some small business clients who want my services argue with paying £50 where I have had others jump at paying £500.

      For some it's down to budget, but when you have low-grade competition charging other people £50 and telling them they're getting what you charge £500 for (because they don't know the difference and can't imagine what they would do to charge £500) it doesn't help anyone.

      So in the end it comes down to the relationships you build and how you position your value - rather than anyone elses value.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        That is so true.

        I think this is a big problem for many people getting into this business who have not had a career or job earning a high salary before - they don't value themselves and they don't understand why anyone else would.

        I have had some small business clients who want my services argue with paying £50 where I have had others jump at paying £500.

        For some it's down to budget, but when you have low-grade competition charging other people £50 and telling them they're getting what you charge £500 for (because they don't know the difference and can't imagine what they would do to charge £500) it doesn't help anyone.

        So in the end it comes down to the relationships you build and how you position your value - rather than anyone elses value.
        Spot on ^

        I think it also has something to do with how much people are comfortable with charging, like you say Andy, what they FEEL they are worth.

        For instance if you build a minisite for someone that makes them six figures a year and only charge $30 for it, was it not worth more?

        Of if you write an article for $10 and it makes someone $5000 through marketing - was it not worth more?

        Of course the argument is:

        "If I raise my prices how can I compete with the marketplace?"

        You could actually turn that round and make it a USP (ok, I do know a few marketing terms ) that you charge more:

        "Why do you charge more?"

        "You WILL find services like this cheaper, BUT before you run off and use them we urge you to read through again - our price gives you peace of mind, instead of having hundreds of clients we focus on giving you a premium service and could even charge more...in short - REAL results are worth paying for!"
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by Chri5123 View Post

          Of course the argument is:

          "If I raise my prices how can I compete with the marketplace?"

          You could actually turn that round and make it a USP (ok, I do know a few marketing terms ) that you charge more:

          "Why do you charge more?"

          "You WILL find services like this cheaper, BUT before you run off and use them we urge you to read through again - our price gives you peace of mind, instead of having hundreds of clients we focus on giving you a premium service and could even charge more...in short - REAL results are worth paying for!"

          There are 2 sides to this:

          # Establishing value with your prospects.

          The more specifically you can establish the potential dollar value
          of whatever product or service you're selling the closer you can
          get to charging what it's worth.

          You can do this to a certain extent before a prospect ever speaks
          to you with good educational sales material.


          # Delivering value.

          Probably even more important is to make sure what you sell
          delivers real value to your clients.

          Happy clients will buy from you again and again.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    great posts -- that's what it's all about, establishing and delivering value, over and over again, to people who you've authentically, honestly earned the trust of. no shortcuts to success. hard work in service of helping others reach their goals, always where it's at.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Andrew,

    In 2008, a little (ok, not so little) thread you plopped into the Warrior Forum ignited an entire MOVEMENT in the market... what everyone now calls "Offline Marketing".

    The idea wasn't even original (zero offense intended) - it was just damn solid, practical marketing advice from someone with the experience to tell it like it is.

    Here's to hoping that this thread can create a similar mind-shift in terms of premium pricing and VALUE for folks.

    The idea can be grokked by anyone, in a blink:

    Know who your customer really IS (and who they are not)...

    Create and deliver greater value than their alternative choices in the market.

    Communicate that greater value more clearly, and more consistently than their alternatives can or will.

    You WIN.

    Great thread!

    Best,

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Know who your customer really IS (and who they are not)...

      Create and deliver greater value than their alternative choices in the market.

      Communicate that greater value more clearly, and more consistently than their alternatives can or will.

      You WIN.

      Hopefully so will your clients.

      Andrew
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      In 2008, a little (ok, not so little) thread you plopped into the Warrior Forum ignited an entire MOVEMENT in the market... what everyone now calls "Offline Marketing".

      The idea wasn't even original (zero offense intended) - it was just damn solid, practical marketing advice from someone with the experience to tell it like it is.

      Very few ideas are original and at the time I had no idea that
      the whole thing would become so huge (some people think I'm
      that brilliant but the truth is that I'm really not).

      I was just doing what I always try to do...share useful information.


      In hindsight it is a great example of taking an idea from one industry
      and applying it to another to create enormous value.

      In that case it was taking the basic marketing methods of web design
      companies (they sell to local businesses) and applying it to internet
      marketers (who usually try to make sales online through online traffic
      in various ways).

      An internet marketer selling their services directly to local businesses
      is a no brainer in hindsight but when I made the post almost no one
      was doing it.

      When people started making serious money literally the same day as
      the post I think that made it pretty obvious the strategy was a
      good one for everyone involved (what many people forget is that
      businesses are better off hiring an internet marketer than they are
      a web designer).


      It's nice to think there'll now be a huge rash of really high quality WSOs
      delivering massive value but I don't see that happening.

      Hopefully a few people will run with the idea though.

      That would be a good start.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    Good point Brian. Knowing your customer is very important especially when settling on a price and getting them exactly what they need so they will want to return or refer to you in the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author fallingdown101
    selling value is always important....thank you for the dan kennedy videos...
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Far too many sell themselves short. Some have an issue with selling. Others don't have the belief.

    I ran a $397 per month book authoring mentoring program afew years back (I was a JV partner) and the biggest obstacle was that customers did not believe their story and or product was worthy.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      I ran a $397 per month book authoring mentoring program afew years back (I was a JV partner) and the biggest obstacle was that customers did not believe their story and or product was worthy.

      That's very true.

      I have a friend who has several decades experience driving an
      excavator and running an excavation company.

      He was retired from that work but wanted to make some money.

      I asked him a few questions about driving an excavator and he
      explained to me there were all kinds of tricks to keeping
      breakages and the cost of maintenance to a minimum.

      Even one breakage could cost several thousand dollars plus
      the time lost when you could be doing jobs that pay several
      thousand dollars a day.

      I suggested we make an audio where he could talk about all
      his money saving and time saving tips and tricks.

      We could sell it by direct mail to all the excavations companies
      in the country (you can find them easily in the yellow pages)
      and as a back end he could offer to consult with anyone
      willing to pay a consultation fee to him.

      I still see this as a slam dunk idea.

      An excavator driver or company owner is going to buy CDs
      that potentially save him thousands of dollars every month.

      The only question is how much. At $100 it's an easy sell.

      I'm pretty sure you could up to several hundred dollars
      fairly easily.

      But my friend just didn't believe it would work.

      The problem wasn't the idea...it would almost certainly
      make money.

      The problem was he had such a lack of belief he wouldn't
      even try it.

      Crazy how lack of belief can stand in your way.


      I know my mindset began to change rapidly when I started
      meeting and talking to people who were making six figure
      incomes and then seven figure incomes in various industries.

      They EXPECT to make a lot of money.

      Most broke people expect to struggle and stay broke which is sad
      and unnecessary.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author Lurk
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        That's very true.

        I have a friend who has several decades experience driving an
        excavator and running an excavation company.

        He was retired from that work but wanted to make some money.

        I asked him a few questions about driving an excavator and he
        explained to me there were all kinds of tricks to keeping
        breakages and the cost of maintenance to a minimum.

        Even one breakage could cost several thousand dollars plus
        the time lost when you could be doing jobs that pay several
        thousand dollars a day.

        I suggested we make an audio where he could talk about all
        his money saving and time saving tips and tricks.

        We could sell it by direct mail to all the excavations companies
        in the country (you can find them easily in the yellow pages)
        and as a back end he could offer to consult with anyone
        willing to pay a consultation fee to him.

        I still see this as a slam dunk idea.

        An excavator driver or company owner is going to buy CDs
        that potentially save him thousands of dollars every month.

        The only question is how much. At $100 it's an easy sell.

        I'm pretty sure you could up to several hundred dollars
        fairly easily.

        But my friend just didn't believe it would work.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        Great idea, but, I have an amateurish question. When doing an interview with someone who has more knowledge than you do,(especially outside your field), how do you determine if they are indeed an expert? Whats the screening process?
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        DONT USE TIME CARELESSLY FOR IT CANNOT BE RETRIEVED. -LURK

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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by Lurk View Post

          Great idea, but, I have an amateurish question. When doing an interview with someone who has more knowledge than you do,(especially outside your field), how do you determine if they are indeed an expert? Whats the screening process?

          Ask a few other people in the industry about him and his advice.

          You'll be amazed at how much information you get in a short
          space of time doing that.

          Also remember that produce an information product of value you
          need information that has value to the people you're selling it to.

          An expert doesn't need to be the leading expert in the entire
          world to give information of value.

          He just needs to know more on a topic than the average person
          in the niche.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author footbag_man
    Works in theory Andrew....... BUT

    For a person launching their first WSO how are they meant to sell $47+ products..

    They need to start selling good quality $7 WSO's to build a good list of buyers that are amazed by what they are selling them and then move up in the price tags ..
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by footbag_man View Post

      Works in theory Andrew....... BUT

      For a person launching their first WSO how are they meant to sell $47+ products..

      They need to start selling good quality $7 WSO's to build a good list of buyers that are amazed by what they are selling them and then move up in the price tags ..
      No they don't.
      Signature

      nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by footbag_man View Post

      Works in theory Andrew....... BUT

      For a person launching their first WSO how are they meant to sell $47+ products..

      They need to start selling good quality $7 WSO's to build a good list of buyers that are amazed by what they are selling them and then move up in the price tags ..
      As Andy said...no they don't.

      People buy based on the potential value they see in a product or
      service.

      All they need to do is create a product that has HUGE value to
      their prospects and create a sales letter that explains that huge
      value.

      Whether they've run a WSO before or not is not really important
      in doing either of those things.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by footbag_man View Post

      Works in theory Andrew....... BUT

      For a person launching their first WSO how are they meant to sell $47+ products..

      They need to start selling good quality $7 WSO's to build a good list of buyers that are amazed by what they are selling them and then move up in the price tags ..
      A WSO should be just another lead generation tool. Build the list of buyers and then offer them higher priced products.

      Yes, Andrew's theory does work my friend.

      Read my sig!

      Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Chad Kimball
    I agree Sal and love the tag.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Unfortunately, there are too many that see WSO's as THE business and that's it.
    Signature
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    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Andrew,

    Have you ever considered going into partnership with David Cavanagh?

    AC/DC Marketing Inc. High Voltage Marketing That Puts Your Business Back In Black...

    Just a thought.

    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Interesting you should ask.

      First David and I are not related (although I wouldn't be
      surprised if you went back far enough and found some
      distant relative in both our family trees).

      David and I have been in contact on and off since way back in
      2008 but up to this point haven't done any business together
      although the intention is always there.

      One thing I love about David is that the vast majority of the
      people he trains end up with real skills and start making real
      money.

      He's a no BS guy...that's for sure.

      I'm sure we'll end up doing something together some time.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    First met him at a Mal Emery gig a while back, then later at Filaime's 7 figures in New York. He was looking after 1shopping cart back then.
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author longblog
    What a great thread full of heavy hitters! I'm certainly subscribing to this one and coming back often.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Cavanagh
    Hey Gents,

    I lurk around here every now and then :-)

    Bring it on Andrew!

    David

    PS... Thanks for the kind words too!
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post

      Hey Gents,

      I lurk around here every now and then :-)

      Bring it on Andrew!

      David

      PS... Thanks for the kind words too!
      HA! Wasn't hard to flush you out was it?


      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Deepak Media
    Sometimes the bigger problem I see here is that people devalue their own products by pricing it damn cheap. So they are over delivering but the price makes people think that it is crap. And when people think it is crap then it is.
    Signature
    Digital Marketing Author | Speaker | Consultant

    Read my Blog: DigitalDeepak.com

    @ Bangalore, India.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Deepak Media View Post

      Sometimes the bigger problem I see here is that people devalue their own products by pricing it damn cheap. So they are over delivering but the price makes people think that it is crap. And when people think it is crap then it is.
      That's an interesting observation.

      There have been quite a few psychological studies showing that the
      more someone pays for something the more value they put on it.

      Put another way before you pay someone $1,000 you're going to
      think through very seriously what they're offering is worth to you
      and how you intend to benefit from it.

      That means after your purchase you're far more likely to make the
      most of what you bought.

      At $7 you might not even read the whole thing if the first few chapters
      don't appeal to you.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Coach Comeback
    Eye opening thread! Was having this same dilemma in my head. I know my stuff is worth soooo much more ... but it seems the standard on launching a wso here is $7 right?

    That is what people expect now. And people launch here because of the traffic. It is semi-already built in.

    So, what is your success with launching a $97 or even $997 info product wso?

    Would anyone even buy it?

    Or is it better to put the sale page on your on site and try to drive your own traffic?
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Coach Comeback View Post

      Eye opening thread! Was having this same dilemma in my head. I know my stuff is worth soooo much more ... but it seems the standard on launching a wso here is $7 right?

      That is what people expect now. And people launch here because of the traffic. It is semi-already built in.

      So, what is your success with launching a $97 or even $997 info product wso?

      Would anyone even buy it?

      Or is it better to put the sale page on your on site and try to drive your own traffic?

      Don't get stuck in either/or questions.

      You can do everything you've listed above and see what works for you.

      Remember that you don't have to have one product at one price.

      Smart marketers have multiple products at multiple price points.

      Sales funnels are important.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Banned
    so how much you make in total from wso's then?

    Movie only costs $10?

    Stephen King book only $6...
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Banned
    it's not 100% line in the sand

    if you can sell 100 X $100

    or

    5,000 at $7

    which one?

    Eye opening thread! Was having this same dilemma in my head. I know my stuff is worth soooo much more ... but it seems the standard on launching a wso here is $7 right?
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    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      Originally Posted by trader909 View Post

      it's not 100% line in the sand

      if you can sell 100 X $100

      or

      5,000 at $7

      which one?
      If you can sell 100 X $100 and there are 7 billion people on the planet you can probably sell another 4900 of the $100 product too.
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

        If you can sell 100 X $100 and there are 7 billion people on the planet you can probably sell another 4900 of the $100 product too.
        You're forgetting about the cost of selling a lot of products.

        If you have 1,000 $10 customers you're going to have a lot
        more support issues than 10 $1,000 customers.

        Also with the 10 $1,000 customers it's worth your time to really
        look after them and it doesn't require a lot of staff to do it.



        This is not an either/or proposition anyway.

        The obvious strategy is to have a product funnel with
        products at lower and higher prices.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by trader909 View Post

    but then you get people that value B*S* high ticket to make it look good.
    The type of people who are going to peddle out crap at high
    prices will engage in many other dodgy practices too.

    There is nothing I could possibly do that would persuade them
    to do anything but try to rip people off.

    Over time their reputation in a niche or an industry will start
    killing their business and they'll have to go elsewhere to rip
    people off in another niche.



    This thread is for people who want to deliver genuine value
    to clients.

    If that's you, you need to seriously consider the fact that
    higher priced products and services get much higher
    implementation and committment from the people who buy
    them.

    Also the fact that when you're charging more you have
    more incentive to genuinely help and follow up with the
    people who are paying you.

    If you want to charge a lot you should deliver a pile of
    real value.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Banned
    ok as we are chewing the fat...then you could sell 250,000 at $7 then.....

    You missed my point i feel.

    If you can sell 100 X $100 and there are 7 billion people on the planet you can probably sell another 4900 of the $100 product too.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Banned
    if you sell a $10 report....there is no customer support....that's the point of it.

    you sell a $1,000 product.....you better hold their hand till the end of time (or at least until they can't charge back)

    I
    f you have 1,000 $10 customers you're going to have a lot
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by trader909 View Post

      if you sell a $10 report....there is no customer support....that's the point of it.

      you sell a $1,000 product.....you better hold their hand till the end of time (or at least until they can't charge back)

      I
      When you sell products and services in the higher price range
      you quickly discover that a high percentage of the people who
      buy from you require LESS support than someone who is only
      paying $10.

      Generally speaking cheaper customers are more problematic
      because you haven't made them pay enough to value your time
      and expertise.

      Also in practical terms if you have a boatload of customers you
      do need support.

      If you don't have it you are going to have some serious business
      problems (and your reputation will really suffer for it).



      It's all academic anyway.

      If you read my other posts you'd quickly realizing that I advocate
      having MULTIPLE price points and a sophisticated product and
      service funnel.

      Only selling one product at $10 is for dummies.

      But it also makes sense if your main product or service is $1,000+
      to have some kind of lead in products and services.


      Generally speaking though, the more your customers pay the higher
      value customer you're going to get and the easier they'll be to deal
      with.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    Banned
    who determines the true value of anything?

    Some complete corporate crap goes or $10,000's?

    Some very good report go for $10.

    is a painting really worth $10M+? is it b****'s but people pay it. That's life.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by trader909 View Post

      who determines the true value of anything?
      The customer does when he hands over the money for it.

      And the process that's gone on in his head to get to that
      point...establishing value in his mind...is a really crucial one.

      When you understand that building the value of your products
      and services in the mind of your customer is a key to helping
      THEM then you will grasp why it's important to charge more.

      Charging more makes it compulsory for your customers to
      establish the potential value of what you're selling in their
      minds.

      And going through that process helps dramatically increase
      the chance they'll implement what they get effectively.


      You know you can now get many very high priced courses
      without paying in dodgy ways.

      But you don't often hear about someone who has got a course
      that way and made a fortune from it.

      The process of establishing value and committing by paying
      is not there.

      If it comes too easily you don't value it.

      Look at all the people in the western world who don't really
      appreciate being able to eat every day, live free of a whole
      variety of diseases and sleep with a roof over their heads.

      Compared to over half the population of the world who
      don't have those things.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author clicktoflip
    currently,I am trying to evaluate the income someone will make if he covers all the important points in this thread and and converting it into an book? :-)
    isnt dat a smart money making model?
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by clicktoflip View Post

      currently,I am trying to evaluate the income someone will make if he covers all the important points in this thread and and converting it into an book? :-)
      isnt dat a smart money making model?
      Not by itself it isn't.

      If you got some information marketers on board who
      are experts at setting up back end product and service
      funnels and created a funnel of your own with products
      and services at different price points that would make
      more sense.

      Also remember that the content of each post is copyright
      protected property of the individual authors so you'd have
      to be very careful about not using the content as its
      presented here.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    In my view focus is key. I like your comment about apply one product a year and I think this is a really good strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author clicktoflip
    ^^^^
    dear Andrew,
    I m not all good in marketing..
    I was about to ask someone what is the abbreviation for `Wso`
    ..
    but I must say u r a successfully IMO,not because u revealed ur 5 yrs of experience but ending ur title with `death of`..
    hahhaaa...
    but I must do be live that marketing is nothing but a man who makes money by selling others products or his..by creating his blog..website by promoting it up to a extent he can...the only aim is to make money by softer means like adding extra value to a product or black hat means which I mean its disloyalty to its customes...
    the other which I do is a smart way...
    I don't do anything..just outsourcing the right product to right customers ....providing the true value to the customers irrespective of its price....I think if I do this right way then i do not need to know anything except the latest marketing trends.
    do correct me if I am wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by clicktoflip View Post

      but I must do be live that marketing is nothing but a man who makes money by selling others products or his..by creating his blog..website by promoting it up to a extent he can...the only aim is to make money by softer means like adding extra value to a product or black hat means which I mean its disloyalty to its customes...
      Good marketing is about finding a market that has real needs
      and desires and meeting those needs in a way that appeals
      to their desires.

      In other words you give them what they really need by appealing
      to what they really want.

      Good marketers put a lot of attention on making sure they deliver
      real value in their products and services because they know the
      real profits are in back end sales...people buying from them again
      and hopefully buying higher priced products and services.

      I'm not quite sure what you were trying to describe in your
      description but it has nothing to do with the marketing I'm familiar
      with.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
    Every service provider should read this thread and reflect deeply upon it. Those that get and implement the message and have some talent/skill, have a better shot at being successful (and still self-employed) 10 years down the road, IMO. I also enjoyed the 'don't undersell your self-worth' aspects of this thread, as with the excavator operator friend.

    This concept actually guided which direction I went in the IM service provider industry - I wanted to start with $XXX products/service and graduate to $XXXX products/service quickly, and went in a direction where individual services/goods routinely go for that kind of money. In addition, if I bust my ass enough and am good enough, there are plenty of $XX,XXX sales to be had in the upper levels, where those folks will actually seek me out, not the other way around.

    And although fiverr, odesk, WF, etc., have plenty of people looking for $10-$50 videos, I don't play around in those price ranges, 'cause me and the doggies need to eat.

    And I want to still be in business a decade from now ...

    This is one of those threads that is packed with excellent info and 'coaching', but because it is not in the WSO section with a $7 price tag, most people will not appreciate the valuable advice you just put out there for free.
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    One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

    - Seldom Seen Smith
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post

      This is one of those threads that is packed with excellent info and 'coaching', but because it is not in the WSO section with a $7 price tag, most people will not appreciate the valuable advice you just put out there for free.
      Wow. I'm amazed I didn't think of that.

      I should have charged $1,000+ for this advice then
      there would have been people who took it seriously
      and acted on it.

      Actually I have charged a whole lot more than $1,000
      for this kind of advice and the people who paid the most
      and followed it did very well.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author emelef
    Spot on Andrew - but there is something to be said with opening with a lower offer <$97 and then having a higher OTO or upsell within your funnel. Value should always be 10X the price...

    But you are right about the buyer resistance - it's as high at $27 as it is at $197.... Okay, maybe $10 is a bit lower but how many $10 products do you need to sell to make a profit!! Efficiency of Sales Funnel is key. Great post, Thanks!
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