ClickBank - the real facts

107 replies
Over the last few months there have been countless threads here at the
Warrior forum complaining of problems with the ClickBank system.

Unfortunately a good deal of what has been written has contained
inaccuracies, meaningless stats, guesswork and false statements.

Most regrettable of all are attacks on the integrity of ClickBank.

It's not surprising therefore that ClickBank's policy is not to
respond at the forum and get involved in such disputes.

So I thought it would help to answer some of the key issues raised.

(I'll be referring to ClickBank's visit last year to London to meet
with their clients which you can read about here
ClickBankSuccessForum.com :: View topic - ClickBank in London - 2008 )


1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.


2. ClickBank do not care about affiliates because they make the same
profit from any sale, affiliate or not.


The first statement made by ClickBank at the London meeting was
"We would not exist without our affiliates"

Affilates are now responsible for 75% of sales, a number that has
steadily risen over the past several years and means that affiliates
get more credit for sales now than at any time in ClickBank's history.

So in fact looking after their affiliates is of crucial importance.


3. The ClickBank system is outdated.

All the software has been completely rewritten from the ground up. The
hardware infrastructure as at last year was able to cater for 10 times
the growth.

There has been a whole catalog of new features and improvements added
to the system which you can read about in the Release Summaries
section of your account.


4. ClickBank has no competition so there is no incentive to improve their system.

No company can afford to stand still. Apart from the changes mentioned
above that have already been implemented ClickBank has hugely
ambitious plans for the future.


5. ClickBank tracking is faulty.


ClickBank uses cookie tracking to identify which affiliate gets credit
for a sale. Cookie tracking is perfectly reliable except for certain
situations outside of ClickBank's control due for example to
- browser security settings
- cookie blocking software
- antispyware

To cater for these exceptions ClickBank introduced a new technology
(supplemental hoplink tracking) in May 2007.


6. ClickBank ignore complaints about low sales and tracking issues and
pay no heed to their client concerns.


ClickBank monitors the forums closely and are fully aware of all the
issues.

The ClickBank system handles 24000 sales a day. That's one every 3.6
seconds. This vast number allows them to analyse in detail any
performance fluctuation and spot any unusual deviation.

Further when any new system feature is implemented it is run for an
hour or two, while checks are made, so that the changes can be quickly
reverted if necessary.


7. "I got someone to purchase and I did not get affiliate commission"


The true test is to check that the order form shows [affiliate=yourid]
which will ensure you get credit. If not the cookie has been lost or
blocked as per the reasons given in (5).


8. "My sales have slumped and it's due to problems at ClickBank"

First you need to recognise a proper slump.

If your sales have gone down from $100 a day to zero you need to
establish whether $100 came from 2 sales of $50 items or 20 sales of a
$5 item. i.e. the important figure is the number of sales.

If you only get 2 or 3 sales a day this figure is far too low to be of
any statistical significance.

If you were getting a substantial number of sales the next figure to
check is the volume of traffic to see whether this decreased by the
same proportion.

The actual statistic you should be looking at is the conversion rate
of visitors to sales.

If this has gone down there are a number of reasons
- financial climate
- seasonal factors
- competition from similar products

If you are an affiliate check for
- changes to the vendor site
- competition from other affiliates with better pre-sales tactics

Another possibility (hopefully rare) is that the vendor has tampered
with the order link at his site to steal affiliate commission.


9. ClickBank respond to problems with a standard template answer.

If you simply ask "why are my sales down" then you should expect a
standard answer.

You need to supply at the minimum details of the product(s) in
question, sales page or hoplink, history of traffic and conversion
figures.


Note: ClickBank assure us they are happy to investigate if you think
your affiliate ID is not being tracked through to the order form
(which would indicate a problem with cookies or potential vendor
wrongdoing). You need to provide hard evidence - the ideal would be
screenshots or screen capture videos.


Harvey


.
#clickbank #facts #real
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    And in the immortal words of Bonnie Tyler...."Let The Show Begin"

    This should be interesting.

    Hey Roger...where's the popcorn?
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  • Profile picture of the author waken
    I Love CB Harvey! And I always do. Because there's where I started and my first online check came from CB.

    BTW...need more details on below..
    What is that new technology? Not hoplink?

    Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post


    5. ClickBank tracking is faulty.


    ClickBank uses cookie tracking to identify which affiliate gets credit
    for a sale. Cookie tracking is perfectly reliable except for certain
    situations outside of ClickBank's control due for example to
    - browser security settings
    - cookie blocking software
    - antispyware

    To cater for these exceptions ClickBank introduced a new technology
    (supplemental hoplink tracking) in May 2007.


    Harvey
    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Harvey, all kidding aside now.

        I hope you know that I think you're one of the brightest bulbs on the planet
        when it comes to Clickbank. And even though I have been dealing with them
        for over 6 years now, I still defer to you.

        So no histrionics and no wild speculation.

        Here's a simple fact. Take it for what it means to you.

        A product that I did with another marketer just wasn't selling. At least I
        couldn't see that it it was because the account is under his name.

        So one day, just for the heck of it, I went to the site as if I were a customer
        buying from an affiliate. I used the affiliate hop link instead of the main
        URL.

        When I clicked on the buy now button and went to the bottom of the
        Clickbank payment page, I saw the following:

        affiliate=none

        Let me say right here and now that I have no anti spyware programs
        and have no browser settings that should block any Clickbank cookies.

        Also, I tested other hoplinks that same day just to make sure.

        They all worked expect for that one.

        I wish I had Camtasia'd the process so that I could show everybody.
        Unfortunately, that was the only day it didn't work. By the time I got
        around to contacting Clickbank, a few days later, the hop link was working
        again.

        I make no claims or accusations other than on the day in question, the
        hoplink for that product wasn't working.

        I am not going to guess or speculate as to how many other products might
        have had the same problem that day or any other day for that matter.

        But with my own eyes, I saw the Clickbank system not work, at least for
        a day.

        Take what you want from this.

        I assure you that what I just reported is 100% accurate.

        Again...there is no reason that hoplink should have not worked.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by waken View Post

          BTW...need more details on below..
          What is that new technology? Not hoplink?
          It is an additional method of checking - ClickBank do not
          reveal the technology involved.

          Harvey
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        • Profile picture of the author Lloyd Buchinski
          Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

          Wow, Harvey, I think this is the first serious post I've read of yours. When you do it, you certainly do it up right.

          Tina G

          PS. I'm with Steve and the popcorn is popping as I type.
          I'm used to seeing jokes or questions from his posts and was also impressed by the difference in this one. The questions btw were inspirational. I'm a bit hesitant to admit I don't know everything and his questions were one of a few pushes that were needed to get me out of that "I'm going to completely do it myself" mode.

          But I'll probably pass on the popcorn. Of course that's easy to say when I'm keeping a double brandy company.

          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          When I clicked on the buy now button and went to the bottom of the
          Clickbank payment page, I saw the following:

          affiliate=none

          (skipped portion)

          I make no claims or accusations other than on the day in question, the
          hoplink for that product wasn't working.
          I'm not at all trying to attack but it seemed that you just tried that once? If you did try it a second or more times that day you didn't mention it. And then that single time grew into the "day" it wasn't working? If it was just a single time of course that wouldn't be nice but it wouldn't be a substantial criticism. Describing it as not working that day makes it sound like a lot more than that time.

          Again I'm not even trying to attack or criticize. I noticed about grade 3 that one person who talked a lot contradicted himself about 3 days after his first statement, and I thought it must be hard to keep track of everything you say when you talk a lot. And it just seems that anyone who handles the language as much as you do would have a lot more to keep track of and to keep everything lined up.

          So I spent a lot of time reading forums when I first got on line, and threads criticizing CB were so common, and usually seemed to have such poor logic that it didn't take long to start skipping over them. And now that there is a positive thread about CB, I guess the internet has seen everything.

          best wishes, lloyd

          Edit: Steve, I reread your post more slowly and my impression now is that you probably did check it repeatedly, but feel free to sort me out either way.
          Signature

          Do something spectacular; be fulfilled. Then you can be your own hero. Prem Rawat

          The KimW WSO

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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Lloyd Buchinski View Post

            Edit: Steve, I reread your post more slowly and my impression now is that you probably did check it repeatedly, but feel free to sort me out either way.
            Yes Lloyd, I checked many times THAT day because I wanted to make sure
            I wasn't seeing things.

            However, after that day, I let it drop until I finally wrote my JV partner
            and told him that there was a problem with the link.

            After I wrote him, I then wrote Clickbank and THEN I checked it again,
            expecting the problem to still be a problem. I never thought it would
            magically clear up.

            My mistake was not making a video of the process the day I spotted it.

            I promise you, I will NEVER make that mistake again.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShayB
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        Tina G

        PS. I'm with Steve and the popcorn is popping as I type.

        Signature
        "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Soo... Harvey..

    What you're basically saying is:

    Clickbank is out to get us all????

    I knew we'd get to the bottom of it

    Peace

    Jay
    Signature

    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author OA
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    • Profile picture of the author Jagged
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      I've heard that if your [posts]aren't showing up under one account/username, you can open up another account and your [posts] will start showing up again.
      Insert "ClickBank Sales" where ever you see the word "Posts"

      Sound Familiar? lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Trader54
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      I've heard that if your posts aren't showing up under one account/username, you can open up another account and your posts will start showing up again.
      Would you go as far to say Harvey is skimming and adding those to his post total?
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

        Would you go as far to say Harvey is skimming and adding those to his post total?
        Yes. Yes I would.

        Also, sometimes when I log onto the forum it says [Welcome, Harvey.Segal] instead of [Welcome, R Hagel]. I am suspicious.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

          Also, sometimes when I log onto the forum, it says [Welcome, Harvey.Segal] instead of my [Welcome, R Hagel]. I am suspicious.
          Notice how all the letters of your name are included in mine. That could explain it.


          .
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        • Profile picture of the author inetwarrior
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  • Profile picture of the author grumpyb
    My thanks to Harvey,
    I had dismissed Click Bank from my forward planning as a direct result of reading negative reports here on Warrior.
    Your well presented post taking an unemotional proffessional and factual look at the issues has answered many questions that have been raised in this forum.
    I am gratefull for this kind of post as it is very valuable in my learning curve.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Another positive note for clickbank - I just noticed today that they've added a live help link to my account page.


    edit: - OK now it's gone. They must be doing some experimenting w/ that one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I hope you know that I think you're one of the brightest bulbs on the planet when it comes to Clickbank.
      WATT a compliment

      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      But with my own eyes, I saw the Clickbank system not work, at least for
      a day.
      Obviously I can't answer this. It's a pity you could not contact
      ClickBank on the day as it happened.

      Harvey
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

        WATT a compliment


        Obviously I can't answer this. It's a pity you could not contact
        ClickBank on the day as it happened.

        Harvey
        I will say this though Harvey, on the day I did contact Jen, she did everything
        she could to try to trouble shoot the problem with me.

        She asked me for the day in question and what IP address I went to the
        site from and the exact step by step procedure I used for going to the site
        and submitted everything to the programmers.

        They were unable to find anything out of the ordinary on that hoplink for
        that day from my IP.

        I assure you though, if it happens again, I will be making a video of the
        whole process and sending it to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    Note to self - be really nice to Harvey in the future or he might delete all of my posts!

    :rolleyes:

    Paranoid nonsense aside this is a really great post and I'm glad you posted it. With all the recent threads slamming Clickbanks integrity it had me concerned about using them as an affiliate processor for an upcoming product release. Your detailed post has eliminated any skepticism I may have had. And I'm not just saying that to protect my posts!

    Now if only you could clear up all the nasty rumors about PayPal that have been circulating here recently...


    Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    Harvey, good info....

    But, can you include a bullet point in this that would explain why opening a new account will "magically" make your sales appear again?

    This isn't just something that has happened to me,but to at least 10 other warriors as well. I'd be interested to know how yourself or clickbank might explain this weird happening.

    Jeremy
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    • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
      Now here's a good question because I've read many posts about people creating a new account, then their sales pick back up...

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Harvey, good info....

      But, can you include a bullet point in this that would explain why opening a new account will "magically" make your sales appear again?

      This isn't just something that has happened to me,but to at least 10 other warriors as well. I'd be interested to know how yourself or clickbank might explain this weird happening.

      Jeremy
      Signature


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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        OK, here is a SuperTip

        When you respond to post at a forum make sure that you quote the
        important parts of the post so that the author cannot backtrack and
        change it.

        Therefore I present to you the following so that it remains here
        forever and you can judge the intelligence of the author in this and
        all her other anti-ClickBank tirades

        Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

        This is certainly the most blatant promotion I've ever seen allowed in this part of the forum.

        Harvey


        .
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    • Profile picture of the author George Sepich
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Harvey, good info....

      But, can you include a bullet point in this that would explain why opening a new account will "magically" make your sales appear again?

      This isn't just something that has happened to me,but to at least 10 other warriors as well. I'd be interested to know how yourself or clickbank might explain this weird happening.

      Jeremy
      Jeremy's post is the most important one in this whole thread IMO, and a solid answer to his concerns from Harvey, or Clickbank or the Alien Beings in control of CB that test and track us more than the ones in John Taylors dreams would be a nice addition to this thread.

      George
      Signature

      Need Help? GeorgeSepich.com Digital Marketing Solutions From George Sepich.

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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        George,

        Originally Posted by George Sepich View Post

        Jeremy's post is the most important one in this whole thread IMO, and a solid answer to his concerns from Harvey, or Clickbank or the Alien Beings in control of CB that test and track us more than the ones in John Taylors dreams would be a nice addition to this thread.

        George
        Nobody will answer that concern or the question in general...At the end of the day for the most part people here know that it is true and that it does happen.

        I've tested it
        JayXtreme has tested it
        Steve Wagenheim has tested it
        about 5 people in the other thread tested it and posted results before the thread was deleted.

        If this is just one big coincidence I'll give myself a flushy

        I'm not saying that clickbank is doing anything "wrong" -- what I am saying though is that there is a problem with tracking and that I don't care who says that there isn't. I've seen it with my own eyes and gotten confirmation from other people as well that have no reason to exaggerate or make up their results.

        The tracking appears to be flawed.

        I can understand why someone from clickbank doesn't put out an email confirming this...hell, you would have every person who has ever sent one hop to clickbank claiming that they have been ripped off. So, it's understandable that they will not address the issue.

        I like ClickBank and I like how easy they make it to promote their products. Bottom line is, I hope that some how -- some way that some type of solution can be found and implemented as time progresses.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by George Sepich View Post

        Jeremy's post is the most important one in this whole thread IMO, and a solid answer to his concerns from Harvey, or Clickbank or the Alien Beings in control of CB that test and track us more than the ones in John Taylors dreams would be a nice addition to this thread.

        George
        Pearson Brown has answered this.

        Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post

        "This isn't just something that has happened to me,but to at least 10 other warriors as well."

        Jeremy, the problem is that your statistics don't mean very much. How many other Warriors have tried the technique and not had any sales? How many others have decided against using the technique and then had a sale anyway?

        It's not an unusual event for you to get a sale. The fact it happened after you changed an account could just be down to coincidence.
        You need solid evidence: for each account when it is opened,
        traffic patterns, conversion stats etc


        Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Harvey, there's no sense trying to confuse the issue with logic!
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Michael,

      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Harvey, there's no sense trying to confuse the issue with logic!
      Unless you have had some of the issues that some of us have had with the "tracking system" or lack thereof, you might not be a good judge of what "logic" is and isn't in this particular case.

      For anyone that has had NO issues and gets credited with each and everyone of their sales, I'm happy for you. Unfortunately, there is a fairly large number of Warriors and other Marketers in general that feel that they have gotten the shaft and not been credited with all of the money that might be due to them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        Michael,



        Unless you have had some of the issues that some of us have had with the "tracking system" or lack thereof, you might not be a good judge of what "logic" is and isn't in this particular case.

        For anyone that has had NO issues and gets credited with each and everyone of their sales, I'm happy for you. Unfortunately, there is a fairly large number of Warriors and other Marketers in general that feel that they have gotten the shaft and not been credited with all of the money that might be due to them.
        Sorry, Jeremy, that was my attempt at humor.

        It was a logical approach, but I didn't want to get into my past experiences in this thread.

        I appreciate hearing the company line on the matter, but I have had problems, too. It's just nice to hear the other side, whether I buy into it completely or not remains undecided.

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    "This isn't just something that has happened to me,but to at least 10 other warriors as well."

    Jeremy, the problem is that your statistics don't mean very much. How many other Warriors have tried the technique and not had any sales? How many others have decided against using the technique and then had a sale anyway?

    It's not an unusual event for you to get a sale. The fact it happened after you changed an account could just be down to coincidence.

    What is needed is a serious study of this. If we could get together 20 to 40 Warriors who all tried this at the same time, the results would carry much more weight.

    Pearson
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Pearson,

      Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post


      Jeremy, the problem is that your statistics don't mean very much. How many other Warriors have tried the technique and not had any sales? How many others have decided against using the technique and then had a sale anyway?

      Pearson
      If it happened once, I would agree that it could be coincidence...However, I now have more clickbank accounts than I can count.

      If I am making hundreds of dollars a day on an account and then it completely dries up for a 7 day period or longer and I switch accounts and get my old conversions back -- MULTIPLE TIMES. I would think that you would have to be extremely naive to think that this is coincidence.
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    "Now here's a good question because I've read many posts about people creating a new account, then their sales pick back up... "

    You've read "many posts" - but only written by a few people.

    The only way to test out this claim is to run a proper trial with a large number of Warriors.

    Pearson

    PS alexa is a HE not a SHE
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    • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
      Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post

      "Now here's a good question because I've read many posts about people creating a new account, then their sales pick back up... "

      You've read "many posts" - but only written by a few people.

      The only way to test out this claim is to run a proper trial with a large number of Warriors.

      Pearson

      PS alexa is a HE not a SHE

      I don't understand the "alexa" comment... but Jeremy said that he saw at least 10... even if I only saw 6... that's still "many"... even if only 3 people made the comment.

      GOD Bless,

      DeShon
      Signature


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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    Cookie tracking is perfectly reliable except for certain
    situations outside of ClickBank's control due for example to
    - browser security settings
    - cookie blocking software
    - antispyware
    Why did you use the word "perfectly" in that statement?

    Every other point you made is great... but this point alone is the hugest flaw in clickbank and always has.

    It accounts for more loss in affiliate commissions than any other element.

    To rely on cookie tracking alone is one of the biggest errors in affiliate tracking today.

    Any affiliate management solution relying on cookie tracking alone is inviting the issues you listed as well as affiliate theft and adware/cookie hijacking issues.

    Cookie tracking is not "perfectly reliable" in fact without combining it with IP and other forms of tracking it is "perfectly" unreliable.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      Why did you use the word "perfectly" in that statement?
      Josh

      I think it's valid to say "perfectly reliable with the exception of ...".
      in any situation.

      Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    For anyone that has made a comment about Harvey's post and promotion...

    The reason Harvey made his post is because outside of Clickbank I don't believe there is anyone more knowledgeable about Clickbank.

    Harvey has been studying and creating products about Clickbank since the beginning.
    It happens that he has products about Clickbank because he is so knowledgeable.

    I don't see anything but his expert opinion about the situation.

    His statements were not made to promote anything except a little common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheCren
    Clickbank doesn't "just" rely on cookie tracking. They claim to have other technology that tracks a user's purchase as well. Now it's impossible for this tracking to be perfect, but multiple systems is a step up from what other networks do (which is solely cookie-based).

    I can think of two ways to find out if a user has made a purchase via affiliate link:
    1) Obtain the user's IP address when they come to the site and associate that IP with the affiliate link in a Clickbank database. This way it's stored persistently, the user cannot delete it or prevent it from happening at all.
    2) Use session variables. The user again has no control over what CB would do with these, but when the browser session has ended so have the affiliate's chances at commission.

    Those are 2 ideas that I was able to come up with on the fly, however, Clickbank does not mention the "technology" they actually use in addition to cookie-based tracking. No form of tracking is ever going to be perfect. Not until the government starts putting chips in our arms and tracking literally everything. Ahhhh, a marketer's dream (and yet a nightmare at the same time).
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by TheCren View Post

      Clickbank doesn't "just" rely on cookie tracking. They claim to have other technology that tracks a user's purchase as well. Now it's impossible for this tracking to be perfect, but multiple systems is a step up from what other networks do (which is solely cookie-based).

      I can think of two ways to find out if a user has made a purchase via affiliate link:
      1) Obtain the user's IP address when they come to the site and associate that IP with the affiliate link in a Clickbank database. This way it's stored persistently, the user cannot delete it or prevent it from happening at all.
      2) Use session variables. The user again has no control over what CB would do with these, but when the browser session has ended so have the affiliate's chances at commission.

      Those are 2 ideas that I was able to come up with on the fly, however, Clickbank does not mention the "technology" they actually use in addition to cookie-based tracking. No form of tracking is ever going to be perfect. Not until the government starts putting chips in our arms and tracking literally everything. Ahhhh, a marketer's dream (and yet a nightmare at the same time).
      Actually, I've been putting my brain to work on this.

      There may be a better way to do this than cookies. And it may be doable with tech we already use, which is great.

      If there is anyone out there that understands TCP/IP technology and either perl or php scripting, and wants in on a potential process patent, PM me so I can bounce ideas off of you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Moser
    Didn't know CB had a policy against getting involved in forum threads. So that's why they never speak up. I just thought they were being shady. Makes sense now I guess. But they could of at least came forward with some kind of public statement letting all the affiliate who work hard for them know all is well. They're silence is hurting them in this case I believe. If it were my company that was under scrutiny like CB is right now I'd be doing some serious damage control.

    I just wish they were more transparent as a company.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

        Josh

        I think it's valid to say "perfectly reliable with the exception of ...".
        in any situation.

        Harvey
        I omitted to say that the exceptions are handled by
        the supplemental hoplink tracking technology mentioned
        in point 5.

        Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Lam
    I'm glad I bought a box of 20 popcorn bags. This is going to be a blast. Thanks, Harvey, for such a wonderful post.
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil S
    I will admit that there is definitely too much hysteria about Clickbank right now. The problem is when 25% of the claims are legitimate, it simply feeds the hysteria of others. Then nobody knows whether their product is not converting or if Clickbank is not tracking the sales.

    There IS something wrong with Clickbank. After testing the same products through Clickbank and other affiliate networks, conversions would be 4-5x HIGHER elsewhere. After 1000 hops (with same traffic, sales page, ect) I had 6 sales through Clickbank and 29 sales through another network for the same product.

    In total this was the difference between making $180 and $900.

    For a smaller fish that is a rather huge difference in money.

    This cannot be a simple sales fluctuation. I don't believe Clickbank has some secret agenda either. The simple fact is that either their tracking system or payment processor is faulty.

    And the fact that there is a problem simply inflates the fears of others, making everyone think they are a victim.
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    • Profile picture of the author ahefner33
      I would like to say this though. I don't defend or endorse Clickbank. But when you pay 5 of your online friends from all parts of the US to buy your product from your affiliate link, making sure that ALL barriers (popup blockers, adware blockers, virus scans etc....) are disabled, and you only get credited for two of them, how do you explain it? Again, I'm not here to argue and judge somebody elses statements but all egos aside, how do you justify this happening?

      AH
      Signature

      Adam Hefner

      http://foodgawker.com/ - Warning - Don't go to if you are hawngry

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  • Profile picture of the author AdamWB
    Harvey,

    Sounds like you are referring to one of the threads I started earlier - it got quite the attention.

    Anyhow - If you recalled my initial post - I stated that I was testing the tracking system for faults. I had a few of my friends purchase a clickbank product that I suspected to be cheating me, through my hoplink of course. (no refunds were issued, the test was done strictly at my own expense).

    The bottom line was that there were obvious sales not accounted for. I received the transaction #'s from my friends, sent them into clickbanks email system, and got a canned response 2 weeks later. Nothing was resolved. I was very professional with them, hence they had no reason to blow me off.

    I'm not sure how much more PROOF you can get than that.

    THEN as per the advice of a few respected warriors, I opened up another clickbank account. Within the hour my sales were back to normal. I don't consider myself a super clickbank guru, but my sales aren't as low as 2-3 per day either. I say this because you said in your initial post that 2-3 sales per day isn't enough to justify a faulty system. You've got to be incredibly dense to not realize that this wasn't a coincidence. Especially when MANY people are watching the EXACT SAME THING happen with their accounts.

    And like I said in my earlier thread - I have absolutely nothing to gain from fabricating this information. I'm sorry but my time is much more valuable than that. In fact I WISH I were wrong, my bank account can attest to that.

    The fact is, I'm not. I'm not part of a mass conspiracy on a special campaign to attack Clickbank.

    As far as who or what is at fault, its really anyone's guess. My personal belief is that they are not shaving sales, but they are having technical issues - and are choosing to ignore and/or deny the issues. I don't say this to be rude - but to believe or say otherwise is being downright ignorant.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post


    1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

    ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.
    I've seen this stated several times and it always strikes me as odd. I don't have a horse in the race but let me show you something, ok?

    Customer A purchases ebook for $47 using Affiliate X's hoplink.

    Affiliate Marketplace strips the hoplink and fails to credit and pay Affiliate X his $23.50

    Affiliate Marketplace pays product owner his $23.50 - fees.

    Now who can't see that affiliate marketplace is up $23.50?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Bruce,

      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      I've seen this stated several times and it always strikes me as odd. I don't have a horse in the race but let me show you something, ok?

      Customer A purchases ebook for $47 using Affiliate X's hoplink.

      Affiliate Marketplace strips the hoplink and fails to pay Affiliate X is $23.50

      Affiliate Marketplace pays product owner his $23.50 - fees.

      Now who can't see that affiliate marketplace is up $23.50?
      Nice try!!! But havn't you heard???? ClickBank is above mistakes

      Seriously, their tracking system is flawless -- as a matter of fact, often times they credit you for multiple sales with no hops at all.

      Everyone that is buying their product through their own links and not getting credit and opening new accounts to get their old conversion rates back on accounts that had completely dried up are making it all up.
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    • Profile picture of the author Trader54
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      I've seen this stated several times and it always strikes me as odd. I don't have a horse in the race but let me show you something, ok?

      Customer A purchases ebook for $47 using Affiliate X's hoplink.

      Affiliate Marketplace strips the hoplink and fails to credit and pay Affiliate X his $23.50

      Affiliate Marketplace pays product owner his $23.50 - fees.

      Now who can't see that affiliate marketplace is up $23.50?
      The product owner sees who the affiliate is or gets the full product price.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

        The product owner sees who the affiliate is or gets the full product price.
        I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate.

        Keep in mind, I'm not saying CB is doing this. I'm just saying, there is a big logical flaw in the argument saying that they don't stand to profit.
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        • Profile picture of the author Trader54
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate.

          .
          And what proof do you have that happens???

          Thats laughable.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            trader,

            Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

            And what proof do you have that happens???

            Thats laughable.
            He already said that he had no proof -- he also already stated that he didn't imply that clickbank was doing it. He only said that it is possible.
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            • Profile picture of the author Trader54
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              trader,



              He already said that he had no proof -- he also already stated that he didn't imply that clickbank was doing it. He only said that it is possible.
              Yes true but I think accusations like that undermine what you say.

              I believe that you feel there is a problem, but when someone like that
              makes unfounded claims it undermines what you say and makes the whole
              thing like frivolous just like in the previous thread when someone made some
              doctored clickbank stats. From your point of view those are the last type
              of posters I would want on my side.
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              • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
                Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

                Yes true but I think accusations like that undermine what you say.

                Again, he made no accusations. Learn to read.
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                • Profile picture of the author Trader54
                  Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post

                  Again, he made no accusations. Learn to read.
                  Read what he said .....

                  "I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate"
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                  • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
                    Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

                    Read what he said .....

                    "I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate"
                    I did. That's not an accusation. He's saying it's a possibility because harvey gave a ridiculous argument as to why clickbank gains nothing by doing it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
            Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

            And what proof do you have that happens???

            Thats laughable.
            Harvey gave flawed logic for why we should trust CB isn't doing that. He exposed it. He doesn't need proof because he's not claiming CB actually did that and the fact that you ask for it shows you don't really comprehend the point at all.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
          I know Steve talked about it in a few post up but here's the day that a whole shit load of people saw the [affiliate=none] problem.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...strip-fat.html

          This can go back and forth all day and has for a few weeks now. Problem is nothing is going to change, it is what it is. Clickbank knows about these threads, won't answer about it and thats it.

          I'm on the side that there is a problem but thats just my opinion. But to continue to have one of these threads every other day is not doing a damn bit of good. Some will say there isn't a problem and others will say there is. Would do everybody some good to just get back to work or start working on making and selling your own products.

          This thread sure isn't making any one any money that I know of.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Okay, here is my final word on this subject, for whatever my word is worth.

            Based on the evidence I have seen as well as evidence presented by
            marketers who I trust without hesitation, I firmly believe that there is a
            problem with Clickbank's tracking system.

            Whether or not it's internal or because of...

            browser settings
            anti spyware programs
            theft by outside programmers
            or whatever

            If the problem is external to Clickbank, it's still a problem and a flaw in
            their system and therefore they need to modify the system so that these
            things cannot screw with people's sales.

            This is what I believe and a room full of Clickbank cheerleaders could not
            get me to change my beliefs.

            Again, I am not saying that this is something that Clickbank is doing
            intentionally. I have no reason to suspect that they are trying to cheat
            affiliates and merchants because it just makes no business sense,
            especially if they're caught.

            But in my mind, the evidence is overwhelming that there are tracking
            issues...whatever the reason.

            It's their responsibility to fix it...period.

            If that means they have to hire the brightest minds on the planet to
            design a system that...

            can't be whacked by browsers
            can't be whacked by anti spyware programs
            can't be whacked by hoplink hijack programs
            or can't be whacked by the man on the moon or whatever

            then that is what they have to do.

            Or they can do whatever they're doing now and watch affiliates and
            merchants abandon their company.

            Me?

            I'm going to do what Bryan suggested and get back to some meaningful
            work because this whole issue has become monotonous and boring.
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            • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Based on the evidence I have seen as well as evidence presented by
              marketers who I trust without hesitation, I firmly believe that there is a
              problem with Clickbank's tracking system.

              Whether or not it's internal or because of...

              browser settings
              anti spyware programs
              theft by outside programmers
              or whatever

              If the problem is external to Clickbank, it's still a problem and a flaw in
              their system and therefore they need to modify the system so that these
              things cannot screw with people's sales.
              Well said.

              I don't care if someone f'ed up on purpose or not. That's for apologists to discuss.

              What I want are problems fixed.

              Fabian
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            • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


              If that means they have to hire the brightest minds on the planet to
              design a system that...

              can't be whacked by browsers
              can't be whacked by anti spyware programs
              can't be whacked by hoplink hijack programs
              or can't be whacked by the man on the moon or whatever

              then that is what they have to do.
              Then they should hire my partner and I.

              We designed what I believe to be one of the most accurate affiliate tracking systems on the market today.

              1. Our system tracks by cookie and IP
              2. Our system knows when someone tries to buy off their own affiliate link and looks back at the last legitimate referring affiliate and rewards them instead (stopping affiliate theft)
              3. Our system has some advanced affiliate/jv type functions that can guarantee 100% accuracy on jv partner affiliate commissions 100% of the time using incentives and what I call "forced coupons."

              And that is just a fraction of it.

              However, those are not genius concepts. And certainly no tracking system is impervious... for example if an affiliate thief knows a system uses IP and affiliate tracking they can use a proxy or go to another connection with a different IP. Yet those concepts are common sense considering the current browser security climate and other issues that all affiliate tracking developers must pay attention to in order to ensure a viable affiliate tracking system today and in the future.

              If clickbank's tracking system really is flawed (is has demonstrated severe flaws and weaknesses over the years) then the greater problem may be that they have so many affiliates using the system that they have legacy issues where they cannot just wipe the old flawed base system but rather keep on trying to patch it.

              If they have "rebuilt it from the ground up" then why are these issues still here?

              Its either mass hysteria or the symptoms of a legacy issue and systematic flaws in their tracking models and development approach.

              Honestly, I am skeptical about most of the complaints I see levied these days about clickbank because they are usually from very low volume affiliates who are only generating 0-3 sales a day and who have never had a large enough sample on a consistent basis to levy a statistically legitimate complaint.

              But there is one thing that cannot be debated... clickbank has one of the worst records historically when it comes to issues with their affiliate tracking. But most of that can be squarely ascribed to their previous reliance on a cookie based system and the fact that they were targeted specifically by security software solutions, affiliate thieves, and adware/affiliate link hijackers.

              For this reason I can understand why clickbank might have a proprietary back up method for tracking now in place (this supposedly came about after the spybot search and destroy issue) which they do not openly publicize. That may be smart. But it also leads to some skeptisizm.

              Still their evidentially slow response to tracking issues over the years does make me wonder if the root problem is their platform or possibly they just need more genius.
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

                1. Our system tracks by cookie and IP
                2. Our system knows when someone tries to buy off their own affiliate link and looks back at the last legitimate referring affiliate and rewards them instead (stopping affiliate theft)
                3. Our system has some advanced affiliate/jv type functions that can guarantee 100% accuracy on affiliate commissions 100% of the time.
                What no tracking by refering url?

                I'm surprised.

                Garrie
                Signature
                Screw You, NameCheap!
                $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

                SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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                • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
                  What no tracking by refering url?

                  I'm surprised.

                  Garrie
                  I did not want to drag out the list of all our tracking features...

                  You must have missed this:

                  And that is just a fraction of it.
                  I could fill a page with all we track ;-)
                  Signature
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                  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                    Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

                    I could fill a page with all we track ;-)
                    There really isn't a lot of reasons to lose commissions.

                    As far as an ou dated system for CB, they could leave the old system in place to track "whats out there" and then migrate everyone to a better system. Instead of hop.cb.whatever, they could just get another subdomain.

                    Then if they wanted to get really good, they could let people add a domain to their account so people don't need to worry about clickbank.net being blacklisted. Or even do like CJ.com

                    Lots of solutions they could do.
                    Signature
                    Screw You, NameCheap!
                    $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

                    SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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              • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                Harvey,
                Half the time I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic...
                My suggestion to make Mike's post a sticky was neither serious or sarcastic.

                Harvey


                .
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Well in that case -- It was aweful nice of you to start a "serious" thread that has drug on for pages only to post nonsense in your own thread

                  Stirring the shit in the pot and then playing games in the thread is much appreciated.

                  Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

                  My suggestion to make Mike's post a sticky was neither serious or sarcastic.

                  Harvey


                  .
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          • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            However, it is pissing me off a little bit that for whatever reason you and some other people here on this site refuse to at least admit to the fact that there is more than likely an issue.
            Jeremy

            Regarding the "new accounts" issue - I make no mention or defence of it
            in the nine points in my original post.

            The real problem is that in all other threads where this has been raised
            there's been a mass hysteria with people saying 'this proves ClickBank
            are scammers".


            I would welcome a proper discussion of this issue (and have some
            thoughts about it) and have a suggestion. Rather than pursue
            it in this thread start a new thread and request that posters are
            to avoid accusations but keep to the facts.

            Harvey



            .
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Harvey,

              Sorry if it seemed as though I was taking my frustration out on you..I just got caught up for a minute.

              Actually though, I am personally done not only discussing this, but participating in threads that have anything to do with it. Not because I don't think that it is something worth talking about, but because it is just pointless to waste time on it. There isn't anything that any of us in this forum can do about it...so, it is what it is.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                All I know is...

                I sure like getting my checks every 2 weeks like clockwork.

                Thanks Clickbank!

                If you think your commissions are being tampered with using Clickbank, try promoting some of the well known marketers products out there and see how you like it?

                Let's just say lots of them have... FUZZY MATH.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Just to set the record straight, around 2001-2003 time frame approximately, Clickbank did frequent this forum. As a matter of fact the CEO (or high level position) at the time, Stephen Rouse, came to answer questions personally at one point. I guess they got tired of getting involved in no win conversations.

    I don't see any of the major payment processors coming to get involved in the conversation either - even though there are a lot of threads about them.

    I don't understand how anyone could honestly say that a CB representative should come here to explain their position. Do you think they would get in a word without being called names, threatened, etc? As a matter of fact, most companies avoid all casual non attorney conversation with people once the threat of lawsuits come up - which it has here recently.

    I'm not on one side of the debate or the other but I am for fairness.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Aaron Moser
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      I don't understand how anyone could honestly say that a CB representative should come here to explain their position. Do you think they would get in a word without being called names, threatened, etc? As a matter of fact, most companies avoid all casual non attorney conversation with people once the threat of lawsuits come up - which it has here recently.

      I'm not on one side of the debate or the other but I am for fairness.

      Mark
      I don't expect them to come to the forum but at least admit they had a blip. Or at least when outages occur be transparent and post that service was interupted like Aweber does..

      BTW, I never knew CB visited this forum. That was a couple years before I joined. I see your point though... It's just that's I've seen Mike Filsaime in here defending PDC, I've seen the owner of Aweber in here but never CB. Now I know why.

      Thanks,
      Signature



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  • Profile picture of the author yves
    1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

    ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
    affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.

    Maybe they have a shavings account (in the style of Sean Connery)

    Sorry, had to be said
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by yves View Post

      1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

      ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
      affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.

      Maybe they have a shavings account (in the style of Sean Connery)

      Sorry, had to be said
      Yeah, but don't you think a merchant would notice this when comissions were going to an affiliate by the name of 'clickbank'?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
    OK,
    My bad if I am missing something crucial here...but these threads have really had me scratching my head a bit here lately...

    Can't this entire argument be solved very quickly, with some creativity on the part of the product owners...after all, they stand to be the real losers SHOULD ClickBank be shortchanging the affiliates...

    Here's how: Track your own hops/sales as a product owner

    Scenario:

    Step 1:
    Affiliate "BobbyG" writes an article on "How To Get Rid Of Love Handles" and puts his ClickBank affiliate ID in the Resource Box.

    Step 2: Customer "Tom" reads the article and clicks on BobbyG's link...but instead of ClickBank being the ONLY recorder of the hop, Product Owner "JayKool" also has software in place to see that "BobbyG" just sent him a hop. Product Owner "JayKool" wants to make sure "BobbyG" gets ALL his affiliate commissions because he wants to keep him HAPPY.

    Step 3: "Tom" takes the bite...and buys the ebook for $47. "JayKool's" software makes a note of the sale.

    Step 4: "JayKool" decides to congratulate his affiliate for making 1 sale already...so he emails him to let him know "job well done". (Or he waits to the end of the month to congratulate him on 39 sales...)

    Step 5: "BobbyG" responds with a "WHAT...I didn't get credit for any sales..."

    Step 6: "JayKool" now has ACTUAL DATA to prove something is fishy at some point in the tracking system.

    Note: This system MUST be based on IP tracking...to prevent "JayKool" from getting scammed as well...he needs to track Referrer + Customer IP + Download Page IP to make this work.

    Did I miss something here?
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I'm being a bit facetious, but...

    If there wasn't any problem, the first post in this thread wouldn't have to be made.
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Anyone who thinks that clickbank is a tightly run company needs to see an eye doctor.

    The customer service is laughable, both for affiliates and consumers. I'm an affiliate who generates well into the six figures yearly for clickbank, and I can tell you they aren't MY friend.

    Between the downright ghetto product approval system, the horrid multiple product system (why do so many affiliates have 5+ clickbank accounts? how is that a clever system?), the $46,000 check that bounced this February, the archaic tracking system, the fact that one affiliate spamming a product can get it removed from clickbank entirely, the speed at which it updates, the stupid gravity rating, etc etc.

    The ONLY reason I use clickbank is because everyone else does, and I'm still in the process of removing it from my business structure.

    You want to talk about a company that cares about its affiliates and users? Go talk to the guys at IPowerPay, they'll welcome you with a pat on the back. I could call my affiliate manager at 3 in the morning and tell him monsters are under my bed, and he'd fly out to make sure it was ok. Service with a smile, the way it SHOULD be done.
    Signature

    Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does.

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  • Profile picture of the author easybiztools
    Hi Guys,

    As usual, Harvey started the party while I was asleep ...

    I think the main thrust of Harvey's post is regarding ClickBank's integrity and their effort in upgrading/maintaining their system.

    Harvey never said their system is faultless - no system is. Not even the mighty Google.

    Regardless of which system one uses, there will problems, glitches, etc.

    Has anyone considered the fact that it could be the ISPs that is causing the problem?

    Let me give you some real examples. I work from Starbucks each day. I subscribe to hotspotvpn.com (a US based company) for secure internet access since I'm in a public wifi area.

    On most days, I have no problem connecting to the vpn service - one some days, I simply can't access the vpn - but I can access the internet from the public wifi.

    Whose fault? the VPN service provider says their servers are fine. The ISP here in Malaysia put me on hold for 1 week. Then they said there is no problem on their end.

    Yesterday, I could not access the ClickBank success forum from the VPN, but if I connect from the public wifi, there is no problem.

    Last night, I replied a customer (email at @rogers.com) but the email bounced saying 'no such user here' - BUT when I used gmail to answer her, it worked!


    So, what's my point?

    Your affiliate hoplinks goes through multiple ISPs, data-centers, filters, proxies (ISP use proxies as well for load-balancing), etc, etc before it finally reaches ClickBank.

    Any of them could have drop the cookies or whatever else due to server upgrades, software upgrades, reboots, momentary lost of database connection, etc, etc.

    Anyone of those could suffer a breakdown at anytime. So, why blame ClickBank for everything?

    Just my 2 cents.

    Adrian
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by easybiztools View Post

      Anyone of those could suffer a breakdown at anytime. So, why blame ClickBank for everything?

      Just my 2 cents.

      Adrian
      True, but why doesn't Clickbank get ANY of the blame? There is A problem. Maybe CB is to blame, maybe not - I am still undecided. I go back and forth, but I don't think CB is completely faultless in the matter.
      Signature

      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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      • Profile picture of the author easybiztools
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        True, but why doesn't Clickbank get ANY of the blame? There is A problem. Maybe CB is to blame, maybe not - I am still undecided. I go back and forth, but I don't think CB is completely faultless in the matter.
        Hi Michael,

        I never said ClickBank is faultless - I said no system is perfect :-)

        If your system processes 240,000 sales a day (3.6 sales per second), can you imagine how may 'hops' it is processing each second?

        There will be glitches from time to time. Harvey never said ClickBank is faultless either. His post was to address ridiculous claims that ClickBank is out to scam affiliates which is completely baseless. 75% of ClickBank's business comes from affiliates - so it is in their best interest to take good care of them.

        Cheers,
        Adrian
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  • Profile picture of the author mikefilsaime
    I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months.

    Harvey, great work. A class act company like Clickbank needs a 3rd
    party spokesperson to shed some light. You hit the nail on the head.

    I had the opportunity to have the VP of Clickbank come to my office.
    I had a private dinner with the President of Clickbank in NYC in November.

    I talk with their senior Brass monthly.

    I can say to you will all I know is right. Clickbank is a class act company that
    loves its vendors and its affiliate alike and will do everything they can to
    see the success of their vendors.

    That success ensures their success. Clickbank makes great revenues. They
    do not need to shave off anything to make a few more bucks and ruin the
    reputation of quality they have. That is silly!

    In the 9 or so years they have been around, they were never late on paying
    affiliates once. Not once.

    They have even taken my advice on technology and we value each others
    opinions. And I can assure you they have an abundant mentality.

    They do not sit still. They improve it seems every day.

    Are there issues?

    YES-

    Is it a CB problem?

    NO-

    It is an INDUSTRY problem. It is related to cookies. This is what almost
    all affiliate programs run on. And when the browser blocks a cookie for
    CB, it blocks it for PDC, 1shoppingcart, infusion, Amember, BFM you name it.

    Do you think at PDC we have never heard a complaint about a cookie not
    tracking a sale. Come on, we have a cut/paste reply as we get it daily.

    It is not a CB only problem. They are HUGE and a big part of people here
    in this forum so yes, with success comes exposure.

    But it is time to put your trust back in Clickbank guys. They do what they
    promise better than anyone in the game.

    They are on your side. I read the stories and I will not allow myself
    to get caught up in the conspiracy. Why? Becuase I know the accusations
    are simply not true.

    Show me ONE TIME and sales was kept by them and a person went
    to your help desk and asked for a refund. They refund about 10% of
    all sales. Maybe less. So that means that 1/10 chance of ""taking all the cash"
    could blow the lid when a customers goes to a vendor for a refund with a prrof
    of purchase receipt that is not in the vendors file.

    THAT NEVER HAPPENED. So with all these thousands of "Shaved" sales, show
    me ONE TIME where a vendor had a refund request with no sale in his account.

    If if they do not pay the affiliate and credit it to the vendor, how does that
    benefit them?

    Come on. Let's use our heads.

    They are a great company and have proved it for years.

    The technology is not their problem. It is their concern but not
    their problem. It is a problem with the industry and we all
    have to deal with it as affiliates. Cookies blocked by browser
    take money away from us.

    But as a vendor, it puts money in your pocket so we have to understand
    that i the end, it all equals out. And if we lose a bit here and there
    to technology, it is a calculated risk we all have to take as affiliate with ANY network.

    Thanks for taking the time to read my point of view.

    Thanks,

    Mike Filsaime
    Signature

    - Thanks
    Mike Filsaime

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    • Profile picture of the author Trader54
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post


      Thanks for taking the time to read my point of view.

      Thanks,

      Mike Filsaime
      Thanks!

      Nice to hear from someone on the inside so to speak.
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    • Profile picture of the author easybiztools
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post

      But as a vendor, it puts money in your pocket so we have to understand
      that i the end, it all equals out. And if we lose a bit here and there
      to technology, it is a calculated risk we all have to take as affiliate with ANY network.

      Mike Filsaime
      Well said Mike!

      cheers,
      Adrian
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Lam
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post

      I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months...
      This is why Mike is still one of my idols.
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    • Profile picture of the author AdamWB
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post

      I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months.
      So because some high up CB official told you they are honest, I guess it must be true.... ???

      I don't care if President Obama himself told me Clickbank didn't have major issues - it wouldn't mean anything to me after what I've seen - with my own eyes.

      All rudeness aside - If it really is a cookie tracking problem - then sure CB can shrug off a lot of the blame. Maybe it's my lack of technical knowledge on the issue but what do cookies have to do with not seeing sales in your account and having them magically re-appear after creating a new account?
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    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post

      The technology is not their problem. It is their concern but not
      their problem. It is a problem with the industry and we all
      have to deal with it as affiliates. Cookies blocked by browser
      take money away from us.
      Sorry but that is wrong...
      Want to know why?

      We know of people buying through their own links...and the affiliate info is at the bottom of the clickbank payment form. Once it is in that form...It's on their end...it is no longer a damn cookie issue...that is post data. It goes...unless they have an issue.

      EDIT: So in other words...if they can get the sale data from that point they can get the damn affiliate info too...
      Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Neil S
      Originally Posted by mikefilsaime View Post


      Show me ONE TIME and sales was kept by them and a person went
      to your help desk and asked for a refund. They refund about 10% of
      all sales. Maybe less. So that means that 1/10 chance of ""taking all the cash"
      could blow the lid when a customers goes to a vendor for a refund with a prrof
      of purchase receipt that is not in the vendors file.

      THAT NEVER HAPPENED. So with all these thousands of "Shaved" sales, show
      me ONE TIME where a vendor had a refund request with no sale in his account.

      If if they do not pay the affiliate and credit it to the vendor, how does that
      benefit them?
      Mike, I think you are really missing the argument here. The issue isn't "shaved sales". I don't take anyone seriously who accuses Clickbank of stealing commissions. And I am sure most Warriors who have issues with Clickbank would agree with that. The idea is ridiculous and simply doesn't make any sense.

      I don't even think the issue is tracking either. The issue I believe is their fraud prevention and payment processing. This really began in the fall of last year when it was reported that Clickbank had made changes to their system in an effort to curb fraudulent charges.

      For a company like Clickbank, I am sure fraud is a major issue. I just believe their fraud detection is a little over-agressive and seems to shut accounts down temporarily if foul play is suspected. This explains why when someone opens a NEW account they see immediate sales.

      My only hope is that they find a way to combat fraud while not missing out on legitimate sales.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Apparently, the first rule about Clickbank is that you do not post about Clickbank...funny how a bunch of posts went up missing in this thread.

        I think the problem with your post Harvey (this particular one) is that you preach as if you have all the facts, when it is the opinion of myself and of many Warriors that you do not.

        As far as your other threads, you have continually come in here as a cheerleader for Clickbank and belittled nearly anyone that has an opinion otherwise. If you don't work for Clickbank, then frankly I'm surprised, because you act like it.

        Yes, we all know that CB is great and you get your checks on time and unless someone creates a better provider/marketplace then we are stuck with Clickbank for the time being. That doesn't mean they are infallible though, and that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out inconsistencies.

        As a vendor, I have no way to contact my affiliates to make sure they are getting credit or aren't getting credit for sales. I do know that if someone buys my product, that an entry is sent to DLGuard and they are given a username and password. Since I can match name to order, I can tell that all of my orders are credited.

        Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't issues of CB being unable to accept payments, and I don't really know how to deal with the problem Jeremy has mentioned...beyond the scope of my knowledge or experience. What I do know is that there are a lot of people on this forum that have major issues when someone disagrees with them. I don't understand all the aggression in this place...some of which is very passive, but exists nonetheless.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

          Apparently, the first rule about Clickbank is that you do not post about Clickbank...funny how a bunch of posts went up missing in this thread.
          You need to ask the forum moderators why.

          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

          I think the problem with your post Harvey (this particular one) is that you preach as if you have all the facts, when it is the opinion of myself and of many Warriors that you do not.
          I did not preach. I made 9 points

          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

          As far as your other threads, you have continually come in here as a cheerleader for Clickbank and belittled nearly anyone that has an opinion otherwise. If you don't work for Clickbank, then frankly I'm surprised, because you act like it.
          The problem is that you have your facts completely wrong

          Did you not read my reply to Frank Bruno ?

          Here it is again

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Frank

          This is a good example of how people see things that are just not true.

          During all the countless anti-ClickBank threads (i.e those accusing
          ClickBank of scamming) I made it a policy NOT to get involved.

          All I did was make just two posts (which did not even mention ClickBank)
          in the hope that it might counter some of the main allegations.

          These were

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ses-stats.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...e-warrior.html

          Aside from that all the posts you ever see me make at the forum are
          responses to technical type questions about ClickBank's system.

          So to say that I am
          "so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization"
          or ask if I am
          "a self appointed CB mediator"
          is way off the mark.



          "I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

          I'm just curious what your position is with the company?"

          I don't work for them or want to work for them.
          I have no position within the company

          My connection with ClickBank is that I run a forum and have a site
          about ClickBank - which both carry the disclaimer "This site is not
          affiliated with Keynetics Inc./ClickBank in any way etc "

          ----------------------------------------------------------------
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          • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
            And also

            Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

            you have continually come in here as a cheerleader for Clickbank and belittled nearly anyone that has an opinion otherwise.
            Show me where I have "belittled nearly anyone that has an opinion otherwise".


            .
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          • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
            Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

            You need to ask the forum moderators why.


            I did not preach. I made 9 points


            The problem is that you have your facts completely wrong

            Did you not read my reply to Frank Bruno ?

            Here it is again

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Frank

            This is a good example of how people see things that are just not true.

            During all the countless anti-ClickBank threads (i.e those accusing
            ClickBank of scamming) I made it a policy NOT to get involved.

            All I did was make just two posts (which did not even mention ClickBank)
            in the hope that it might counter some of the main allegations.

            These were

            http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ses-stats.html

            http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...e-warrior.html

            Aside from that all the posts you ever see me make at the forum are
            responses to technical type questions about ClickBank's system.

            So to say that I am
            "so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization"
            or ask if I am
            "a self appointed CB mediator"
            is way off the mark.



            "I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

            I'm just curious what your position is with the company?"

            I don't work for them or want to work for them.
            I have no position within the company

            My connection with ClickBank is that I run a forum and have a site
            about ClickBank - which both carry the disclaimer "This site is not
            affiliated with Keynetics Inc./ClickBank in any way etc "

            ----------------------------------------------------------------
            Harvey,

            I'm not going to debate semantics with you. Preach, state, tell, argue, provide...whatever. You said "facts" and the situation is that some, if not many, people believe they are not facts.

            I did read your reply to Frank, but it did not change my mind. That being said, if you do not work for CB, then how do you have any facts at all?

            I don't really feel like arguing with you over this because I know you aren't going to change your mind and I don't plan on changing mine. People say you are a nice guy, and I believe them, but I've been watching a lot of your comments on this forum and many of them are condescending.
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            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

              but I've been watching a lot of your comments on this forum and many of them are condescending.
              Well I won't let that go and ask you to point them out.

              Harvey
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
              I've been watching a lot of your comments on this forum and many of them are condescending.
              I suppose that like beauty, condescention is in the eyes of the beholder.

              Harvey can be accused of many things: factual, patient and funny are three that spring to mind, but I can't honestly say that I've ever seen him be condescending to anyone.

              Of course, if you have been misreading his sometimes bizarre sense of humor then perhaps you could have read things differently to me.

              On a matter of fact (and not aimed solely at you Nathan), I don't believe that Harvey or anyone else has said or even suggested that there are no problems at all with ClickBank. I'm sure that anyone who has experience of tracking issues will know that no system can ever be 100% foolproof because the Internet just doesn't work that way.

              As to how those problems can be addressed, resolved or even properly identified is more than likely way too complex for me to understand.

              But I do know (from having met the board of ClickBank on several occasions) that they are working very very hard to make their system as good as it can be.

              The beef that Harvey (if I may put words into his mouth) and many others here have is not that questions about Clickbank are raised, but that they are so often couched in inflammatory, conspiracy-theory terms.

              I too would like to see Clickbank engage in discussion more often, but I can't really blame them for shying away from debates with people who shout 'scammer' at the earliest unfounded opportunity.

              Martin
              Signature
              Martin Avis publishes Kickstart Newsletter - Subscribe free at http://kickstartnewsletter.com
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        • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

          Apparently, the first rule about Clickbank is that you do not post about Clickbank...funny how a bunch of posts went up missing in this thread.
          If you care to do even a little research you'll see
          evidence to the contrary. In fact if that statement
          was true, this thread wouldn't exist.

          Posts don't go missing. They get deleted by other
          members who report them, they get deleted when
          people get banned and when a forum Admin decides
          that they are inappropriate.

          The following are example of what might be seen as
          inappropriate comments:

          As far as your other threads, you have continually come in here as a cheerleader for Clickbank and belittled nearly anyone that has an opinion otherwise. If you don't work for Clickbank, then frankly I'm surprised, because you act like it.
          I don't understand all the aggression in this place...some of which is very passive, but exists nonetheless.
          This thread is literally hanging by a thread on the edge
          of being deleted precisely because of personal attacks
          and insults.

          Harvey started a thread that was designed to help folks
          clear up some misconceptions. I really wonder why he
          bothers when so many people seem to be more concerned
          about shooting the messenger than trying to understand
          the message.

          John
          Signature
          John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas Wilkinson
    How do you ignore a user again?


    EDIT: Great post Mike, thanks a lot.

    Tom
    Signature
    When you hear someone telling you what YOU can't do, they are usually talking about what THEY can't do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Quentin
    Thanks for the great post Harvey.

    I cut my Internet Marketing Teeth with Clickbank and my only gripe was the checks but now they have introduced direct payment I am so pleased.

    Clickbank is a service and hey if you don't like it don't use it.

    As for me, any company that allows me to run my own affiliate program and also handles the payment of my affiliates which cuts out a huge administration problem will always get my business even if there are some hickups along the way.

    Quentin
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
    Harvey are you a self appointed CB mediator?

    I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

    Because I'm baffled and still have no clue why you are so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization.

    I'm being serious here am I missing something I'm just curious what your position is with the company?

    If you have no official ties with the company then you are just like the rest of us...

    Mushrooms. We are all kept in the dark and fed a bunch of sh@#t.

    Frank Bruno

    P.S- I do not believe they are intentionally stealing money. I belive its an internal technical issue which I have witnessed and experienced myself that screws with affiliate commisisons and it goes way beyond simple loss of cookie tracking. Its happening to many people.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
    And still no one has a valid answer for why opening a new account and switching out the ID's on all your links magically takes your sales from 1/800 to 1/50, within a few minutes and continues that way, then out of nowhere back to 1/800, until they switch to a newly opened account, and back to 1/50. For some people this has been going on for months.

    People who say no one has any valid evidence seem to be keeping their head in the sand. Many people have tracked, taken screen caps, got various people to do purchases, etc... and yet there are people saying that their evidence is not valid. Have some respect for the intelligence of these warriors. Many of these warriors do their due diligence before making outrageous claims, please give them that respect.

    CB has some explaining to do, or at the very least some PR to do. This isn't the only forum where this is being discussed, and there are plenty of other forums who give light to the valid proof they have found. I'm not talking about a week of sales, I'm talking about months of stats.

    Get your head out of the sand all you CB fanboys and give some of these other warriors the respect they deserve.

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author AdamWB
      Originally Posted by jamesc32 View Post

      And still no one has a valid answer for why opening a new account and switching out the ID's on all your links magically takes your sales from 1/800 to 1/50, within a few minutes and continues that way, then out of nowhere back to 1/800, until they switch to a newly opened account, and back to 1/50. For some people this has been going on for months.

      People who say no one has any valid evidence seem to be keeping their head in the sand. Many people have tracked, taken screen caps, got various people to do purchases, etc... and yet there are people saying that their evidence is not valid. Have some respect for the intelligence of these warriors. Many of these warriors do their due diligence before making outrageous claims, please give them that respect.

      CB has some explaining to do, or at the very least some PR to do. This isn't the only forum where this is being discussed, and there are plenty of other forums who give light to the valid proof they have found. I'm not talking about a week of sales, I'm talking about months of stats.

      Get your head out of the sand all you CB fanboys and give some of these other warriors the respect they deserve.

      James
      I don't know man. It really baffles me. Like I said earlier - I've seen irrefutable proof that Clickbank is doing some pretty funky things with my account - and some of it has nothing to do with this cookie tracking BS. It's so blatantly obvious that something is going on with Clickbank - cookie tracking or not.

      Then you get people like Harvey and Mike coming on here basically saying I'm wrong, I didn't experience what I saw, and that the earth is still flat. And they must know because they have connections with the higher powers of Clickbank. What's even worse is the people sitting on the fence about this take what they say as gospel. Sad.

      I really hate getting rude but I almost feel like I have a moral obligation to call out people like this.

      Jeremy - I hate to see you go, but I'm not even close to being done with this. I've still got some energy left in me =)
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Whats the point of this thread? Please, someone explain it to me because all I get from it is PR answers that could be rebuted by anyone w/ some knowledge about tracking & PCs.

    Actually, I could rebute 90% of the ones in this thread - for or against.

    ClickBank, or any company for that matter, will not openly admite to issues that haven't been proven yet. They will always do PR bits. (Speaking from 1st hand knowledge. I have a few friends that their jobs is pretty much client damage control.)

    With that said, I have along taken the stance that I haven't seen any proof.

    I know somethings that could call the issue but not as wide scale as people report.

    You people with problems, need to start tracking w/ 3rd party software and record things like: time of day, browser type and version, ISP, OS, referrals, etc.

    You should even be doing a test cookie. e.g. See if you can set and read one.

    Or you can keep assuming things are bad.

    Steven, did you happen to clear your browser cache that one time and are you using IE? I have noticed that on IE, at times, all cookies wont set or be read but if you clear the cache (not cookies) it will start working again.

    Mike, just one thing:
    And when the browser blocks a cookie for CB, it blocks it for PDC, 1shoppingcart, infusion, Amember, BFM you name it.
    That's not true and it depends on several factors. Things like 3rd party software installed and types of cookie being set (3rd party, 1st part, w/ a compact privacy party).

    For instance, SpyBot was blocking ClickBank but not for Amazon. SpyBot even started blocking ClickBank order links (wouldnt let you click them.) Dont know if it still does.


    Garrie
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    Screw You, NameCheap!
    $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

    SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?


      Originally Posted by AdamWB View Post

      So because some high up CB official told you they are honest, I guess it must be true.... ???
      I doubt if he could pull the wool over Mike's eyes.

      Mike is the owner of paydotcom - a rival company

      Harvey


      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Harvey,

        Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

        Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?

        I doubt if he could pull the wool over Mike's eyes.

        Mike is the owner of paydotcom - a rival company

        Harvey

        .
        Half the time I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic...

        Since you started the thread, why don't you stick to being serious so that your comments aren't misunderstood.

        Because surely what you wrote above was meant to be sarcastic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    Wow - some people have their whole body (not just their head) DEEP in the sand.

    Fabian
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    Bruce is exactly right...
    It was what I was just saying to Jeremy before I read the rest of the thread...

    1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

    ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
    affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.
    It is definitely possible for them to make more by taking the commission themselves.

    Whether they do that or not I don't know...
    Really don't care anymore...because CPA makes us more money anyway...

    Their tracking system is so 1999 it is pathetic though...
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      lol

      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

      Whether they do that or not I don't know...
      Really don't care anymore...because CPA makes us more money anyway...
      At least they pretty much admit they shave
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Well in that case -- It was aweful nice of you to start a "serious" thread that has drug on for pages only to post nonsense in your own thread

      Stirring the shit in the pot and then playing games in the thread is much appreciated.
      Jeremy

      Don't you think this is an over-reaction to one single line which said
      "Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?"

      Harvey



      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Harvey,

        Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

        Jeremy

        Don't you think this is an over-reaction to one single line which said
        "Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?"

        Harvey

        .
        Maybe it is....

        But, you have replied with that same type of answer a couple times not only in this thread, but in a couple of the other threads as well...

        I respect you as a marketer. Your forum was the first one I signed up for after I got my first clickbank ID

        However, it is pissing me off a little bit that for whatever reason you and some other people here on this site refuse to at least admit to the fact that there is more than likely an issue.

        Let me lay this out for you and I would like to know how you think this could be happening and as you are reading it know that there are more than a handful of other warriors that have had the same experience.

        - Clickbank account is getting $400+ in sales EVERY DAY for months on end

        - Clickbank account gets same exact traffic in number and from same source.

        - Clickbank account gets no sales for 7 days straight

        - New Clickbank account gets opened

        - New Clickbank account starts making $400+ a day in sales again

        - Repeat the above

        Now, Im sure that there are some people that are having no problems at all and I am absolutely thrilled for them. However, I enjoyed making a nice living from clickbank and promoting their products. I still do, but not with the same enthusiasm as I once did.

        I'm not asking anyone to totally agree with everything I say, but If I am having the issue above, other warriors have reported the same thing -- Wagenheim is buying shit through his own link and not getting credited...I'd like a reasonable answer as to what the hell is going on and not some "canned company man" FAQ.

        This issue has very likely cost me money and for that I am extremely irritated and annoyed -- But more so annoyed by the fact that there are a handful of CB cheerleaders that refuse to at least aknowledge the fact that there COULD be an issue.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by Frank Bruno View Post

          Harvey are you a self appointed CB mediator?

          I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

          Because I'm baffled and still have no clue why you are so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization.

          I'm being serious here am I missing something I'm just curious what your position is with the company?
          Frank

          This is a good example of how people see things that are just not true.

          During all the countless anti-ClickBank threads (i.e those accusing
          ClickBank of scamming) I made it a policy NOT to get involved.

          All I did was make just two posts (which did not even mention ClickBank)
          in the hope that it might counter some of the main allegations.

          These were

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ses-stats.html

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...e-warrior.html

          Aside from that all the posts you ever see me make at the forum are
          responses to technical type questions about ClickBank's system.

          So to say that I am
          "so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization"
          or ask if I am
          "a self appointed CB mediator"
          is way off the mark.



          "I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

          I'm just curious what your position is with the company?"

          I don't work for them or want to work for them.
          I have no position within the company

          My connection with ClickBank is that I run a forum and have a site
          about ClickBank - which both carry the disclaimer "This site is not
          affiliated with Keynetics Inc./ClickBank in any way etc "

          Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I would welcome a proper discussion of this issue (and have some
    thoughts about it) and have a suggestion. Rather than pursue
    it in this thread start a new thread and request that posters are
    to avoid accusations but keep to the facts.
    Then why not start that thread instead?

    I don't think anyone can discuss facts because no one has any. Not you, not "them," no one. Until someone starts doing their own tracking and recording the data thats needed, it's all open to interpretation.

    Out of the anti-people, I haven't seen anyone mention the software they are using on their sites to redirect people or if they are using direct links or any other data besides whats in the CB account. Which is funny because if I thought CB was having any issue, I wouldnt believe any of the stats. If CB shows "lots" of hops but no sales, then the inbound traffic stats could be wrong too.

    Out of the pro-cb people, I haven't seen anything besides "they wouldn't" or "i talk to them all the time" type of posts. Which of course, means nothing. People talked to the Enron folks too and thought they would do no wrong.

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author peaker
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by AdamWB View Post

      Then you get people like Harvey and Mike coming on here basically saying I'm wrong, I didn't experience what I saw, and that the earth is still flat.
      Adam,

      Yet again people misconstrue what I did or did not say.

      Read my answer to Jeremy:

      Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

      Regarding the "new accounts" issue - I make no mention or defence of it
      in the nine points in my original post.
      Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
    Originally Posted by ProductCreator View Post

    Oh dear, look at this thread now. I knew this was going to happen.

    This is a perfect example of what I was talking about...I made what I would consider rather mild comments, and everyone gets all up in arms over it.

    People disagree, that's life! My comments were not an insult to Harvey, rather a statement of perception that others have echoed as well.

    I get it, I'm not as popular here as some of the veterans and I'm probably susceptible to things on my own efforts, but we are all grown ups and professionals here and there really isn't any reason to mince words.

    My only problem with the thread was that the title stated facts. I could care less about the CB issues because as a vendor and affiliate, I don't really have any other choice.

    Again I will pose this question...if Harvey doesn't work for CB, then how does he have the facts or ability to clear up misconceptions? Jeremy, Steve, Don, and others already pointed out some flaws...they also have the numbers to back their statements up.

    I'm really not here to stir up any trouble, but why is everyone so defensive? Can't we have an adult discussion without people getting all excited?

    Oh and Harvey, I'd rather retract the statement than provide proof. Not because there isn't any, but because I don't want to start a flame war. I'd post examples, then you would fire back (so would others probably), then suddenly the thread becomes a me vs you thing and I don't have a beef with you and this thread must live on...
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
    Sensible post...you are spot on.

    The problem with a forum is that not every comment is taken the way it was intended, so naturally things get out of hand quickly. I'd hope that no one holds grudges about having a difference of opinion.

    Still, I'd hate to see it locked up...if nothing else call it the "Pro-CB vent" thread and let another one exist as an "anti-CB vent" thread lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Harvey started a thread that was designed to help folks
      clear up some misconceptions.
      Exactly John.
      Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

      On a matter of fact (and not aimed solely at you Nathan), I don't believe that Harvey or anyone else has said or even suggested that there are no problems at all with ClickBank.
      Correct - I have never said that.

      Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

      My only problem with the thread was that the title stated facts.
      Nathan, please look at my opening post.
      Items 1-7 are facts
      Items 8-9 are suggestions

      What is there that you consider not to be a fact ?

      Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

      Again I will pose this question...if Harvey doesn't work for CB, then how does he have the facts or ability to clear up misconceptions?
      All the facts 1-7 are publicly available.

      Harvey


      .
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