Product Creators: Do you worry about pirates/black hat sites?

11 years ago

Meh. Besides the normal precautions, there isn't much you can do so no sense worrying about it.

Most fears of piracy are unfounded anyways... for example, I came across a Clickbank product a couple of days ago with a gravity over 50 that had been selling for over 2 years with an unsecured "Thank you/download" page, and out of curiosity, checked to see if anyone had shared the link or the ebook anywhere... nope.

There are all kinds of products like this that make six or seven figures and never get pirated. Others do, but the amount of money you may lose is usually a drop in the bucket compared to what you do make.

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OldLodgeSkins

11 years ago

If there's nothing you can do about it, then don't waste your time worrying about it... That's how I take it.
One thing you may want to do though is to include a modification password in your PDFs and deny cotnet copy (I know I can do both when exporting from OpenOffice) so it makes it harder to modify your product by removing your name, references, and referral links - if any. That way at least if your product gets shared you'll still get the credit.

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Jason Kanigan

11 years ago

The people who steal access would never buy your product anyway.

Concentrate on pleasing those who do buy.

Best move is to a secured membership platform with download limits. That should stop the large majority of thieving. Beyond that, anyone can always steal your content somehow...but those 2% or 5% aren't worth worrying about.

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Cool Hand Luke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan

The people who steal access would never buy your product anyway.

This is absolutely False, and I have no idea why people on this forum keep echoing it...:confused:

There are A LOT of people who would pay for something, yet will take it for free if they can get it. That's what the entire piracy industry is based on.

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sal64

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

This is absolutely False, and I have no idea why people on this forum keep echoing it...:confused:

There are A LOT of people who would pay for something, yet will take it for free if they can get it. That's what the entire piracy industry is based on.

ermmm... read the comment again... the poster says BUY not PAY. Big difference in the two.

Sal

FWIW, unless to have invented something from scratch, no product is truly original. If you have something unique, then trademark or patent it.

Otherwise, almost all products are based on existing concepts.

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Cool Hand Luke 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

ermmm... read the comment again... the poster says BUY not PAY. Big difference in the two.

Buy/Pay mean exactly the same thing in this instance... what are you even talking about?
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wolfmmiii

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

This is absolutely False, and I have no idea why people on this forum keep echoing it...:confused:

There are A LOT of people who would pay for something, yet will take it for free if they can get it. That's what the entire piracy industry is based on.

I don't often agree with Luke but he's right. Typically, I'll check the "other" forums every so often and fire off DMCAs when necessary. Believe it or not, most of those sites WILL act on a DMCA.

I even went so far as to track a guy down who lived in my state and prepared to file suit in small claims. We eventually settled before it got that far.

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SunilTanna

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

This is absolutely False, and I have no idea why people on this forum keep echoing it...:confused:

There are A LOT of people who would pay for something, yet will take it for free if they can get it. That's what the entire piracy industry is based on.

In the PC software world, that is people who sell software programs, there are a ton of people who have found:

1. Adding/Improving protection increases sales, sometimes dramatically.

2. Removing protection (because geeks hate srm and consider it uncool) crashes sales.

Of course there are a few highly publicised counter examples where removing drm generates lots of geek pr and more sales, but I believe in most cases a level of protection helps not hinders.

The difficult thing of course is to strike a balance - to protect without making painful for legitimate customers.

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Farish

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

In the PC software world, that is people who sell software programs, there are a ton of people who have found:

1. Adding/Improving protection increases sales, sometimes dramatically.

Where do you get this from? If a product is truly wanted it will show up no matter how strong the protection is.

One of the best examples I can give is World of Warcraft which requires a constant online connection to play and you must hook into their servers with your battle.net account to start the game.

Well you can easily find an emulated server or emulate their service and play on a pirate game yourself.

2. Removing protection (because geeks hate srm and consider it uncool) crashes sales.

The music industry has remove DRM from their songs because they realized it was not working and by investing millions of dollars in new schemes they were simply wasting money. People who will pay for content, are already paying for it.

Of course there are a few highly publicised counter examples where removing drm generates lots of geek pr and more sales, but I believe in most cases a level of protection helps not hinders.

The difficult thing of course is to strike a balance - to protect without making painful for legitimate customers.

Sony infamous rootkit has led many people's computers crashing. This was their DRM for their music cds.

Also in order for it to work properly it had to open security holes in Windows computers that allowed computer trojans to exploit it.

It worked so poorly that they had to deal with multiple state class action lawsuits.

This led to the situation being attacked by several news sources and help weaken Sony's reputation to many consumers.

So it is not just about Geek PR as you put it.

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GlenH

11 years ago

Because I sell software...my products never get 'stolen'.

I have too many in-built security functions, so none of my software can be illegally used, or given away.

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art72

11 years ago

Originally Posted by GlenH

Because I sell software...my products never get 'stolen'.

I have too many in-built security functions, so none of my software can be illegally used, or given away.

While I appreciate the fact that 'your' products never get stolen, it might not be because of your security precautions.

In today's world if they want it, they'll find away around your security measures.

Not that I promote or condone such behavior, all one has to do is look at Adobe's new CS6 Master Collection (*roughly $2,500 in software) and there's already hacks and piracy videos strewn all over YouTube!!!

Thus, 'your software' may not be getting pirated, but major developer's like Microsoft, Adobe, and the like, are prime examples that no matter how much security they enforce... pirates plunder the booty buddy.

As an internet marketer releasing a product, book, or software, I sincerely doubt I'd place too much concern on thievery. After all, I'd bet the aforementioned companies make boatloads of money, and account for the losses before putting a price tag on their goods.

Sadly, I believe; we the 'honest' consumers pay extra for the thieves who obtain their copies for free. Such is especially so with insurance companies, whereby a good driver with zero accidents living in a high volume traffic area, (like Florida) - pay out the nose for the idiots who can't freaking drive.

I suggest you focus more on the quality of the product, and taking care of those who do purchase it, as opposed to sweating the small stuff.

PS - GlenH, there's really no need to Thank me btw, I'd hate to see your thanks meter deter...

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GlenH

11 years ago

While anyone can take a piece of software, visually analyze the functions of what it does, and possibly make another app. like it, there is simply no way any pirate can infiltrate the source code for the software and duplicate that.

I've been doing this 7 years, and I've never come across a 'clone' of any of my software products.

For me, the simple fact is...no one has ever gained access to any of my software products and been able to use them illegally in the 7 years I've been doing this.

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yesacpow

11 years ago

That maybe true, but it all depends on the popularity of your sofware. If your software doesn't appeal to a mass audience (I am not saying that your doesn't) then there wont be a lot of demand for it an thus no one will crack it.

Think about this, Microsoft is a billion dollar company but yet still people are able to crack their software. Why do you think they can't do it for the little guys like us?

It's just a matter of demand and how much people want the software that you are offering.

Originally Posted by GlenH

While anyone can take a piece of software, visually analyze the functions of what it does, and possibly make another app. like it, there is simply no way any pirate can infiltrate the source code for the software and duplicate that.

I've been doing this 7 years, and I've never come across a 'clone' of any of my software products.

For me, the simple fact is...no one has ever gained access to any of my software products and been able to use them illegally in the 7 years I've been doing this.

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SunilTanna

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Farish

Where do you get this from? If a product is truly wanted it will show up no matter how strong the protection is.

One of the best examples I can give is World of Warcraft which requires a constant online connection to play and you must hook into their servers with your battle.net account to start the game.

Well you can easily find an emulated server or emulate their service and play on a pirate game yourself.

The music industry has remove DRM from their songs because they realised it was not working and by investing millions of dollars in new schemes they were simply wasting money. People who will pay for content, are already paying for it.

Sony infamous rootkit has led many people's computers crashing. This was their DRM for their music cds.

Also in order for it to work properly it had to open security holes in Windows computers that allowed computer trojans to exploit it.

It worked so poorly that they had to deal with multiple state class action lawsuits.

This led to the situation being attacked by several news sources and help weaken Sony's reputation to many consumers.

So it is not just about Geek PR as you put it.

First of all sony's debacle is not instructive as an example. They created software that exposed their customers to risk, and therefore damaged customers and their business. The fact they made this mistake in their drm software is incidental - they could have made the same mistake selling a game, or a network utility, or an operating system, or anything else (and there other companies in these types of fields who have made such mistakes). We don't condemn all games, because there was once a particular game which messed up people's pcs. And we can't condemn all drm because of one bas example.

The music industry is also not instructive, because by the time they released music online, the same music was already available free online (albeit in pirate forum) in mp3 on napster, bit torrent, etc. Adding drm is obviously not going to work in such cases. If let you pirates give away free versions of your product fo several years, then 3 or 4 years later try to start selling a drm version, it's a no brained tha you are going to face a nearly impossible struggle.

The reality on this forum is that if somebody here creates a product it is an exclusive product that they control the distribution of.

Potential users fall into 3 groups.

1. Hardcore pirates who would neve pay.

2. Hardcore customers who would always pay.

3. A middle group who might pay or pirate depending on whether it is easy to pirate, and whether the amount saved by pirating represents a good return on their investment of time and hassle.

The idea of drm and protection more generally is to get as many as possible of that middle group to pay.

And some level protection does works.

When you search in google for "software product name crack" (or "pirate") etc., even something as simple as making the top result go to a page at the vendors site (making it slightly harder to find a pirate version) can improve sales.

Likewise, software vendors who release a new version such that old pirate keygens don't work, even if they do so silently with no new actual new features, nearly always increase their sales. It's not hard to figure out what is going on - the middle group downloads the software trial and tries a crack/keygens, but when they find the crack no longer works, some decide to buy.

If you go to any misv or shareware development forum, you will experiences like this from vendors who actually test rather thsm listen to theories. You can search the archives of joelonsoftware hot find many threads of this nature.

And finally this is my own personal xperience selling software online and offlinebfor more than 20 years.

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Jason Kanigan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

This is absolutely False, and I have no idea why people on this forum keep echoing it...:confused:

There are A LOT of people who would pay for something, yet will take it for free if they can get it. That's what the entire piracy industry is based on.

What I said was no different from anything just about everyone else replied with afterwards.

Lock your site down as best as you are able (and can afford). Then don't worry about the 5%.

Anything can be stolen. Someone can screen capture my videos. Someone can unlock your software. Worrying about it after you've done everything you can right now, trying to stop people you cannot, is pointless. Please your purchasing customers and you'll do fine.

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Ben Gordon

11 years ago

I just create secure membership sites and download links. If people share their login information on blackhat forums then their account gets locked because of download restrictions and I can easily find them because they share it with the world. If somebody gets a hold of my content and puts it up for download then I just send DMCA notices regularly to the hosts. I hired a VA to find where these files are located and to send DMCA notices to all these hosts -- he's done a great job.

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Rob Whisonant

11 years ago

I don't worry about it at all. In fact I actually make more money sometimes when a product does get pirated.

Make sure every product you release contains a way for you to make money, not including the initial sale.

Here is just one way to do it.

Can you recommend a physical product or a membership from within your product? Add affiliate links to these.

Now think outside the box and come up with other ways to profit from pirated versions of your product. Tons of ways.

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Jonas Glad

11 years ago

Just ignore it, it's going to happen. There is no point of trying to make an effort to prevent it really, just focus on your paying customers.

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rmolina88

11 years ago

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I do plan on putting my affiliate links in the product since I'm also recommending affiliate products in it which are required to make it work.

The more exposure, the merrier, right?

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Oliver Williams

11 years ago

Either way it is still good branding for you long term.

Often you can pick up future leads, sales and subs this way especially if your products are good.

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MartinPlatt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by rmolina88

I'm finally in the process of making my own product and do any other product creators worry about pirates/black hat sites? I know it's inevitable to have others steal your product, but I'd like to know the best way to deal with it when the time comes.

What kind of protection methods would you recommend?

Or should I take the rockstar approach and be glad that my product will be spread out more for free?

What's your take on this, Warriors?

Thanks!

Not worth worrying about in my opinion. I have a background in software development, and I wouldn't generally bother much with that either.

Do what is reasonable to make it harder to rip off. If you're bothered just make it a pain in the ass, by continually adding value, and only those with registered addresses get the updates. The e-mail could be taken from when the product is purchased.

I think it was Bill Gates who said that he's rather have the pirates ripping off his software than someone else's. I think that that's a better approach - you will get a brand following even if you don't make as much money, but ultimately will find ways to add value that cannot easily be ripped off. I'm talking upsell into coaching, membership sites, that sort of thing.

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centurion81

11 years ago

I think a product being ripped off is inevitable.

But here's what I think:

Most people who download pirated items probably weren't going to "buy" it anyway. These people are willing to accept the risk of viruses, malware, etc.

But there is a separate, larger segment of society who are not willing to take that risk nor download illegal items; they are therefore happy to pay.

Of course we take proper precautions i.e memberships site, S3 time out plugin, etc.

But I think in most cases it's a losing battle -- if someone wants to rip it off they will.

Andrew

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Coby

11 years ago

Here's what I do...

Expect the product to get shared...

Sooooo....

Monetize it fully - make sure you have affiliate links to resources like Aweber, HostGator, etc... Make sure you have optin forms on your download page and links inside the product as well...

Don't work against them - work with them and let them spread your message and affiliate links around the net for you ;-)

Cheers,
Coby

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andyjbenson

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Coby

Here's what I do...

Expect the product to get shared...

Sooooo....

Monetize it fully - make sure you have affiliate links to resources like Aweber, HostGator, etc... Make sure you have optin forms on your download page and links inside the product as well...

Don't work against them - work with them and let them spread your message and affiliate links around the net for you ;-)

Cheers,
Coby

I agree with Coby. It's gonna happen buddy no matter what, so make the most of the exposure by adding all your affiliate links in for maximum effect!

Personally I wouldn't want anyone like that on my list of customers so I wouldn't worry about lost sales.

If it's a high quality membership site with bucket loads of content you're trying to protect but you dont want to get involved with all the hassle of keeping it secure then you might want to take a look at kajabi.com

Hope that helps a little!

Andy

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Sushiman1111

11 years ago

I made at least four sales within the first year of having my own product out where I know for a fact the customer checked for free downloads before buying my product. I didn't make a whole lot of sales my first year, so this was about 1%.

While it may be true that some products will not generate any sales from people who would rather not pay for them, if you're in a niche with desperate buyers those people WILL pay if there is no free alternative available.

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idoitbigtime

11 years ago

I know What you Mean
I Found out Great things to promote that Paid 100% comissions
Its Much Better & Easier then Promote my Own Products

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yesacpow 11 years ago

This can be good to some extent but I do belive that creating your own products will allow you to build a list of BUYERS than you can ultimately market to over and over again.

The fact is, regardless of what we do, pirates will always find a way to share our products for free. So they are NOT our target audience.

..And that's why it's good to have niches outside of the IM niche where majority of the customers have no idea about blakhat forums and the sort.

Originally Posted by idoitbigtime

I know What you Mean
I Found out Great things to promote that Paid 100% comissions
Its Much Better & Easier then Promote my Own Products
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Rob Whisonant

11 years ago

I have been programming since about 1972. Wow I'm showing my age. My programming experience goes all the way back to punch card and ticker tape days. Dang! I have been programming for over 40 years! WOW!

Now that I feel really old... Back to why I am posting.

Any downloadable software regardless of the programming language or security used can be can you say private labeled without the copyright owners permission. You don't need access to the source code to do that.

Call home routines can be nulled or pointed to a different server.

Copyrights and software product names can be changed by using a simple hex editor.

Software that accesses a remote database can be hacked to access a stolen database on a different server.

Even software that places nano code all over the place to check for theft can be nulled. It just takes longer. You just need a ____________ program and a packet sniffer. Left a blank there deliberately. Don't want to make this a how to hack software thread.

So feel really lucky if your software has not been stolen and shared as someone elses software. Now if there is not a big market for your software, you don't have to worry. A hacker is not going to take time to hack a program that has a small audience. Most IM software does fit the bill of having a small audience luckily.

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Soren

11 years ago

As soon as you post your WSO, if it's looking good, you can be sure someone will post a request in the blackhat forums, a thief will buy your product, refund it and share it with others of the same kind.

Try to make a whole unique package, instead of just selling a stand-alone digital product. Wrap yourself, your support and coaching inside that package and make it the best in the world, because THAT, they cannot get else where, since you're the expert and you created the product.

Forget about blackhatters. Just concentrate on all your happy customers, and success is bound to come your way.

What I just don't get is why Google still shows them in their listings. It should be fairly easy for them to identify and deindex these sites.

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Stuart Walker

11 years ago

I don't worry about it. Hardly a day goes by without me seeing that I'm getting traffic from some blackhat forum downloading my info products. I'm not fussed.

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topgold

11 years ago

You shouldn't worry at all, especially if your product is making $0.

Worrying about this takes up time - time which you could have used to create more products which could make you more money. Better to just make another product.

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Amirol

11 years ago

You can't do anything about it.

Don't worry it too much.

However, you may apply extra security for your download access and / or product name.

For example, you can generate a unique product name for each person that buying your product.

Therefore, if one of them spread / share your product, you may detect "the bad person" and ban that person from buying your future product.

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sal64

11 years ago

if you are worried about being ripped off in the digital age then you are asking the wrong question.

sal

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kencalhn

11 years ago

I spend a lot of time vigorously sending DMCAs, C&Ds, VERO takedowns, paypal de-registering pirate sites, and have successfully kept most of my content offline for years. And my sales have been very strong. Don't stick your head in the sand like an ostrich. I'm longterm a very successful IMer from the 90s online fulltime, I spend a lot of time stamping out piracy, to protect my business. I'm also to my knowledge one of the most prolific/high-producing guys in my niche, dozens of dvds, over 60 sites, regular webinars with hundreds in attendance, etc.

Guess what industry didn't spend a lot of time on anti-piracy? The adult industry. Look at where they're at now. btw adult is a leading indicator for all online content, in all niches, from everything like video distribution to membership sites to the rest of it. Now they've got to migrate to live webcams/unleveraged time, to stay afloat.

Keep on saying "don't worry be happy" and watch your sales go to heck as your stuff is pirated in BH forums and filesharing sites. Go ahead and lazily turn a blind eye, and wonder why your sales founder. Or protect your stuff and maintain and grow strong sales. Hint: as in IM, the correct answer is never the popular or easy one.

It's a lot of work like heck for long hours to produce and protect world-class content.

And good news, your ISP Will be monitoring you:
http://www.myfoxny.com/story/2134718...egal-downloads

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Product Creators: Do you worry about pirates/black hat sites?

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