GRRR - Clients who think they know it all!!

by kswr123

Posted: 15 years ago 37 replies

INTERNET MARKETING

This is a rant specifically about design, BUT, I do not think it belongs in the design section, as it applies to offline marketing, consulting, and almost any other form of 'freelanceing' or 'consulting'...

NB- No personal damage is meant by this thread. I am simply highlighting an issue for consulters and freelancers... Sorry if damage is caused...

I have a client who paid for a twitter BG. Not naming any names here. He asks me to come up with a sample.

So, I make him a sample based on his specs. And, not blowing my own trumpet, it was pretty damn good.

So, he replies. He asks me to change the colours to horribly contrasting and ugly colours. Asks me to put a pixelated BG on it, a wierd font, and generally everything which I would associate with the words 'tacky design, $5 designer, bocthed job, and digital point'.

BUT, he paid for a design, so I make it to his specs, having wiped the tears from my bleeding eyes. This design did NOT look good....

I gave it to him, and told him that IMHO the first design was a beauty compared to this.

And then he responds a few hours later.

He wants worse colours, and an even worse BG image...

Hmm... Does this guy have eyes?

I do it. Send it to him. The process repeats itself. 8 times. I have sent him 9 concepts. 8 Of which he ASKED to be ugly...

My question is, for consulters and freelancers...

Is it our duty to provide a good design, or to please the client, even if that means giving a butt-ugly design???

Mubarak

#clients #grrr

dannyhw Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709725].message }}
- Darth Executor 15 years ago
  
  I'd just do what the customer wants. Sometimes they want ugly/tacky for a reason and since I don't know what's going on in their head (or, tbh, care) it's none of my business. No, the designer doesn't always know better. No, not everybody wants the best looking design.
  
  Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710158].message }}
Killer Joe 15 years ago

Mubarak,

You can't please everybody. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to fire your customer.

It's not worth putting a bunch of bad product out that can stain your reputation just to make one person happy.

You have a business, he has unusual wants. These two aren't a good mix.

Unless your contract has a performance clause that can bite you for not performing, give him a refund and cherish the lesson.

KJ
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709733].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Perhaps you guys are right. But, for future reference, clients are likely to have their own vision. And 80% of the time in my field, their vision and mine are different. Now, 99% of the time, they like my idea more... So this guy comes along and I see it as a challenge...

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709743].message }}
firegold21 15 years ago

I'd say there's a point at which you need to cut your (emotional) losses and run. Our job as copywriters, designers, developers, etc., is to please the customer. That said, if pleasing the customer is hurting our professional pride too much, it's perfectly appropriate to tell the customer you're not the one they need for this project, then work out a fair to both parties prorating of the compensation (if needed).

I've run into this general problem before myself, and I know how hard it can be. You've got what's a good design, and then the customer says "Add this." And there's no logical place to add it without making the existing design look horrible. In my case, while I was trying to figure out how and where to add what the customer wanted, they added the stuff themselves, just pasting it in without trying to make it match or fit in with what was already there.

Very frustrating.

I just got out of that bad arrangement, so am feeling relieved I don't have to deal with all the stress of dealing with the client, but at the same time, I'm disappointed that I'm currently project-less. Well, except for working on my own niche (hypnosis), that is ... but that doesn't pay until it's successful.

Joshua
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709750].message }}
Tyrus Antas 15 years ago

I used to have those issues as a computer programmer as well. The solution is simple: stop doing consulting work and focus on creating your own products or services that don't require much costumer contact.

Clients are for the most part ignorant. Give them what they want while explaining the consequences of their preferences. You can't loose that way.

Tyrus
- Thanks
- 1 reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709769].message }}
- Rachel Rofe 15 years ago
  
  The thing with design is that it's really subjective.
  
  And a Twitter page is pretty personal.
  
  I'd be inclined to give the guy my opinion, and let him know he makes the ultimate choice...
  
  But I definitely wouldn't go back and forth 8 or 9 times. I'd make sure the dude respected my time and was clear from the get-go.
  
  He'd tell me what I wanted, I'd give my opinion, he'd reiterate his opinion, I'd create it, and be done!
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  - Rachel
  
  Check out all of my products right here.
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709857].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Yep. I told him his way is not as good pretty bluntly. But, freelancers need the money!

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709834].message }}
Adaptive 15 years ago

Just sign your art as Alan Smithee. Alan Smithee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards,
Allen
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709842].message }}
terrapin719 15 years ago

I've only had one such client fortunately, and after about the 3rd round of back and forth I replied that I just didn't think our business relationship was going to work, we didn't seem to be effectively communicating. I included a list of recommendations and refunded his deposit. It was much less painful to return the deposit than to keep going.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709870].message }}

kswr123

15 years ago

Yeah, perhaps. But I offered unlimited revisions...

And I would really not like bad public relations publicity...

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Minisite Design

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709875].message }}

Karen Blundell

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem

Yeah, perhaps. But I offered unlimited revisions...

And I would really not like bad public relations publicity...

unlimited revisions? You are really undervaluing yourself. Your time is money, and like others have said, it is perfectly fine to drop clients who are unreasonable.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

---------------

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710167].message }}

Darth Executor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

unlimited revisions? You are really undervaluing yourself. Your time is money, and like others have said, it is perfectly fine to drop clients who are unreasonable.

Not if he said so beforehand. Though if it's that time-consuming he should revise it for the future.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710214].message }}

CathrynL 15 years ago

I've worked at several advertising agencies and understand both sides of wanting to produce a quality design that you're proud to present and stick your name to as well as knowing how important it is to keep the client happy - repeat business and good word of mouth are valuable--as we all know.

If I felt strongly about a design I was presenting, I would often 'argue' (gently, of course) with the client until I 'got my way'. Using strong points of contradiction and/or proven supportive information to explain to the client why my design would be more effective, I would change their mind about 98% of the time. If they still insisted upon changes that I strongly disagreed with, the alternative was to try to compromise. You can often incorporate what it is they're wanting to accomplish, while still keeping the format of the design to some extent where everyone is happy.

On another note - you can see that unlimited revisions can break you. There are some of those clients that you just can't seem to please and others that will take advantage of that 'offer'. Don't forget, your time is money! You have to draw the line somewhere.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[709953].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Yes. Perhaps 5 revisions is enough....

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710067].message }}
MarkWrites 15 years ago

You may have to suck it up and see this project through to its unfortunate end. If in the end you are unsatisfied with the final product, you are totally within the limits of acceptable behavior to request that your name not be associated with the project from the customer's end.

It's a fine line that freelance professionals have to walk. Many clients have a vision in their head of what they want, but lack the skills to create, so they commission others to do that for them. Other clients are not only looking for the nuts and bolts of the creation process, but also want insight into the experience and expertise that the freelancer possesses. Incorporating a client's vision into what are the best standards and methods available is the tightrope that must be walked.

Personally if I am building a house, I may know what features and general layout I would like, but I'm going to rely on the architect and contractor to make it happen in the best way possible.
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710078].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

hmm... bet a house and a design/website/SEO page are different IMHO.

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710098].message }}
Allurre 15 years ago

lol, im curious to see the finalized piece.

Btw, when it comes to freelancing, you just got to go with the customers.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710124].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Please, Allure. Do NOT make me show the design here! I will NEVER EVER get another client on the WF!!
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710157].message }}

kswr123

15 years ago

hmm... there is SOME amount of truth in that.

But I have a duty to provide the best and most professional advice possible...

I do not think that I can do that if he wants a pig-ugly design...

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Minisite Design

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710164].message }}

Darth Executor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem

hmm... there is SOME amount of truth in that.

But I have a duty to provide the best and most professional advice possible...

I do not think that I can do that if he wants a pig-ugly design...

I know a lot of people like to do good work. So do I (that's why I redesigned a major project's web site 3 times and I still don't have anything in it online and making me money because of it). But ultimately, we're getting paid to do something for that person, not for ourselves. If they need crap, I'd just give them crap.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710220].message }}

Adaptive 15 years ago

Mubarek, you need to add some steps to manage the client's expectations.

First, you should define an amount of time you'll need to make three initial rough drafts. Each has a different look. You present all three at the same time.

The client will pick their favorite design, and give you all their comments.

Then you will define the amount of time you need to make a revised version, based on the one they picked, including their comments.

Then they get one more round of comments, in case you missed anything.

Then after a defined amount of time, you give them then final version.

If you made a typo or other factual mistake, you'll correct if for free for 30 days if their payment is current. But you won't make any other changes.

Up front, you need to explain that this is the way you work and what your fee includes. If the client wants additional revisions, each one is another 20% beyond your basic fee.

In this way, you can fulfill your duty to provide your best professional advice... to as many people as you can who are willing to pay you for it, and use it... not to those who waste your time so you can't serve more people!

Bob Bly teaches copywriting, but he has a lot of great material about this mindset that I think should work with graphics as well.

Regards,
Allen
- [ 1 ] Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710175].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Great info there Allen. Perhaps I am undervaluing myself. But i offered a WSO, and did not want to mislead warriors as one example...

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710200].message }}
MemberWing 15 years ago

Maybe my simple approach will help:
1. For clients I break down big job in a few smaller ones, payable separately.
2. I take 25% of agreed upon non-refundable payment upfront before commencing the smaller job. This helps to keep client's attitude is check and avoid BS. He knows my patience could be short and he'll lose downpayment in a blink.
3. Only after small job is paid in full - I proceed to the next one.

Once I had very controlling, demanding and dominating client but above arrangement kept him on a short leash. He wasn't happy and liked to argue a lot, I just ignored most of crap and did my part. He didn't pay me for first installment in time (6 hrs later than promised) and I informed him that next installment will not be delivered to his deadlines because he didn't pay in time and I had to squeeze another client in front of him.
He surely was foaming and fuming but at the end he got excellent quality working custom code delivered on my conditions and later even contacted me again for more work.

It's important to set very strict yet simple rules and use stick and carrot on a client for his own benefit. Otherwise everyone suffers.

Rule #1: If client refuses to pay initial deposit - 95% of time you'll have problems getting paid from him.

Gleb
- Thanks
Signature

| Law of Attraction Coaching | Secure Fast Hosting | Law of Attraction |
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710254].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Perhaps Gleb, but I did not take downpayment. I took the WHOLE payment first...

Mubarak
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710302].message }}
Taylor French 15 years ago

The thing is, unlimited revisions only applies to people who pay you. If you refund him, you are no longer obligated to offer any more revisions. Refund him and move on. Your time is worth far more than this, and this client seems like they will never be satisfied. Don't let this person waste your time and cause you to lose any more money.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710320].message }}
Gabe77 15 years ago

While it's true that you're at the mercy of your customer, I think you also have a right to suggest what you think is appropriate in regards to design. The "bad" design is certain to be part of your portfolio and future clients would look you up and see the design you did for this client. Now, how would you explain that? It would also affect your future client's perception about work.

If you can fire your client, I think this is the best way to avoid conflicts such as this.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710380].message }}
Anomaly1974 15 years ago

Personally I provide them with what they ask for (With my writing in my case) make them guarantee not to associate my name with it and point them towards places that they can get cheaper work done that is more suitable to their needs. I do not do re-writes, keyword spam or other questionable writing as it certainly does not help my portfolio. However, as a professional, I make it a point to give people not only what they need, but what they want as well. Once this tendency has been revealed though, I will not put them on my list of steady customers.
- Thanks
Signature

â€œThey did not know it was impossible so they did itâ€
-Samuel Clemens" (As Mark Twain)
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710658].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Well, at least some people know thier 'place'!
- Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712108].message }}
- Fred_Acker 15 years ago
  
  Hi Mubarak,
  
  You don't have to ever show your work if you don't like it.
  
  Just let the client have his/her way and don't put your sig on it.
  
  However...
  
  His twitters may be more like him and actually want a design like his.
  
  So be prepared to barf now and then.
  
  Fred
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Right Now. What a wonderful time to start!
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712117].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

argh! More of them???
- Thanks
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712137].message }}
SteveJohnson 15 years ago

There's a difference between playing the role of 'technician' and building a piece how the client wants, and the role of 'designer' where you utilize your professional talent and knowledge to achieve an outcome for your client.

This guy wanted you to be a technician - you could do it, and he couldn't. Do it how he wants, leave your name off, don't put it in your portfolio, deny its every existence, collect your money, and move on.

If he had come to you wanting you to design a bg that would solve a problem - get more followers, send ppl to his site, etc. -- THEN you would have had more room to tell him "I'm the professional - everything that's here is here for a reason, and everything is placed in a specific spot for a reason. If you get your hands in it, you won't get the results you want."
- Thanks
Signature

The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712146].message }}
artwebster 15 years ago

Mubarak,

Next time you accept a job, work out what your customer REALLY wants before giving him what you think he wants. Having given him what he wants you will probably not have this sort of hassle. If you do, it is because you have not approached the client in a businesslike manner and made it clear that there are parameters within which you work.

All too often I see people who create so many problems for themselves because they forget who is the client and who is the expert. You never took control of this client so he is actually of the opinion that you are HIS client. You must disabuse him of this idea.
- Thanks
Signature

You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
Build it, make money, then build some more
Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712155].message }}
kswr123 15 years ago

Perhaps, but I was approached on the basis that I could create a good design. I created it, and siad 'This will work'. He said he wanted changes...
- Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature
Minisite Design
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712182].message }}
- artwebster 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mubarak Waseem
  
  Perhaps, but I was approached on the basis that I could create a good design. I created it, and siad 'This will work'. He said he wanted changes...
  
  BUT you had no idea what his idea of 'good design' was. This is the major problem, you were asked to do something and you did not ask "what do you want me to do?"
  
  It might sound silly but if you wanted a new radio for your car, would simply tell your local supplier to 'fit a radio'?
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
  Build it, make money, then build some more
  Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[714020].message }}
Kate Carpenter 15 years ago

I think incidents like yours probably happen more often than we would like to believe. There is a difference between a difficult customer and, what I might call, a 'disabled' customer--particularly in the visual arts arena.

I think I read, years ago, that the majority of the population does not (or cannot) think in visual terms. In other words, it's very possible that your customer sees your work, wonders how it would look with different colors, but can't see it in his mind with the different colors, but must actually see the product with the colors.

It's very frustrating working with these impaired individuals. But they are frustrated, too. You can (and in this case have) gone over the extra mile. Have you asked him WHY he wants the changes? Or why he was unsatisfied (I don't think he was actually unhappy) with your original work, and follow-up work?

I think it's a case of your customer thinking, "I'll know it when I see it." Which leaves you jumping through hoops.

I agree that if you do not like the final product and do not wish to have your reputation associated with it, you shouldn't have any credits,etc, referring it to you. You may want to sign over all rights (or whatever) to him and have him sign off that the concept/design was his doing, or something along those lines.

I sympathize with you.
- Thanks
Signature
WSO-Fresh-new PLR article packages for Travel/Cruise Niche Or Dog/Pet Niche Buy 1 pak OR Both!
WSO Virgin PLR Articles in the Diet/Weight Loss & Exercise/Fitness HOT Niches
http://www.PainterDefenseFund.com Save our Arabian Race horses!
http://www.tips4onlinedating.com Write a successful Profile
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[715116].message }}

GRRR - Clients who think they know it all!!

Trending Topics

best high quality crypto traffic.

Some interesting stats about brand comms

Fixing a massive traffic drop after rebranding

Meta AI now has Google Search results

What's the Best IM-Related Skill to Learn Today That Can Help in the Future?