Live Joint-Venture Problem: List owner and Product owner cant agree on Metrics

2 replies
Hi folks

Currently brokering a deal between an alternative health product owner with some excellent products, and a long veteran in copywriting/info-publishing with access to the high quality lists

List owner wants the metric of average revenue per 1000 mailed, but product guy doesn't want to give this figure as he doesn't agree with revenue per 1000 mailed as an accurate metric.

Here is the dialogue to explain the context ( I am the JV broker "PP" in this conversation, product guy is :LL" and list guy is "KK" ) Anyone who helps me solve this will get a nice reward

Hi PP- yes, that's correct. We generally expect a $.50 min
EPC for referrals and often $1-2+ on this product. Same for weight loss product. Thanks! LL

On the Back health product, what is the Rev per 1K mailed?
You state 3-8% conversion and $1 EPC - but neither of these
two figures can be compared with other promos as a yardstick.
Conversions - I covered why not early.

EPC - is earnings per click, but of course, you have to know the
click through rate to properly assess the number.
Revenue per 1K mailed is the only consistent yardstick good
for comparison between promos, and all my partners want this

The copy looks good, without a doubt.
Let me know and also, how many alt-health promoters have
already run the promo? Any big players in the US?
I am connected with most of them, so can make those connections. KK

Hi PP - earnings per mil (EPM) emailed is not a metric of any use unless you're
comparing internal offers (same list) to internal offers (again to same list). When
comparing different lists, someone will get a 5-8% open rate, others a 30%+, so
that number will be all over the map.
Some people can't even get half their emails to inbox, so I don't want to throw out
a number because it would be a pure guess... there are some lists that are very poor.

Sorry I can't be more help, but just don't want to set false expectations.

Talk soon, LL


Hi PP.....Well I'm sorry they feel that way.

Btw, it's revenue per 1,000 names mailed, and it is still the
best comparative figure.

It takes every other metric into account (open rate, CTR,
conversion rate, price of product and so on).
It's an average, of course, since every list is different.

But it ultimately represents what the partner with the
list expects he might earn on the deal VERSUS any other
deal he could take for that day on her/his marketing

That is the number my partners want to see.
It can, of course, be calculated from any existing data.

It's just the data provided so far does not provide enough
(quatity mailed, revenue earned).

If you can get this data, I can present the offer to partners. KK


Hi PP- sorry for the hassles, I can't give you that number as an average
doesn't exist (for anyone). If their list is poorly maintained or compiled, they
might not get a single open from 1000 mailed. I'm all about transparency, and
it wouldn't be honest or fair to try to give someone an estimate on anything
except clicks. They might be emailing from a blacklisted IP for all I know... could get 20% inboxed the rest to spam. Too many variables...

Let me know if I can help...LL

Hi LL, that's not a problem...Would you be open this idea....if we calculated your current figures over a certain number of campaigns? I realize that poor lists would lower the result, but if we averaged out over several of your campaigns (e.g. 5-10 ) I am sure we could get something honest and fair and pretty accurate, as it would only be an average revenue per 1000 number to give him a guidepost so his partners could move forward....I think it might be a case that the industries he deals with are used to doing things/interpreting things in a certain way, but Im sure it would be well worth it to bridge this deal, as Ive thoroughly checked this gentleman out and I have no doubt he has access to lists of 10million + of quality people.....If you are uncomfortable with sharing the numbers I am happy to sign a simple NDA agreement to protect your information or anything else you need..warm regards, PP

Hi PP - my emails get 20%+ open rates. With 10MM names, that is a compiled list, no question, so a 5-6% open rate would be a big success, a 1% open rate would be more common. Another way to look at is 3% of a total list click through so 30 clicks per thousands emails, but again that's with
a quality list that is well looked after. 10MM names is compiled, so you might get 1 click per 1,000 names (or less).

I'm more than happy to share my numbers, but they won't at all reflect his traffic... I've gotten
into weird situations in the past where people have crashed my servers and hurt my domain reputation
with spam traffic/bulk traffic/etc so I'm always a little leery of this kind of thing. The only metric that makes
any sense to look at is his historic open/click rates as a starting point otherwise you're comparing
apples to oranges. LL

Hi LL ...The 10MM names is not from one source, but different sources as he has 30 years exp in copywriting, with a wide variety of businesses, to give you an idea some include Big name 1, Big name 2, Big name 3 etc. Is there any other information you want me to get through him including his historic click/open rates to help this metric? PP

Hi PP - I'm sure the guy is a great copywriter, but me trying to predict his open rate is as hopeless as me trying to guess his bank balance. Could
be anything... quite literally. With a 10MM compiled list, no idea
what server that is mailing from, but if he got a 2% open rate,
that would probably be a huge success. These bulk mailers usually
get excited with a 3-6% open rate as it's untargetted broad reach.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but this isn't something anyone
would ever promise... LL
#agree #jointventure #list #live #metrics #owner #problem #product
  • Profile picture of the author petelta
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      I understand the product owner's position, but it's easily solved. He's already given an estimate of EPC (between $0.50 and $2) for his products, so all you need are three numbers based on that EPC (take, say, $1 as an average).

      So, for example, what would be the revenue for a 5% open rate, a 10% open rate and a 20% open rate.

      You can just work those figures out yourself and give them to the other party.
      TOP TIP: To browse the forum like a Pro, select "View Classic" from the drop-down menu under your user name.

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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I agree with product guy's concerns. Revenue per thousand emails is not a useful metric and is an invitation to legal disputes.

    Why you would even consider brokering a deal using that metric? Most likely, someone will be unhappy and look for relief from your pocketbook.

    There are too many variables, such as the email copy, relevance to the list, number of bad email addresses, etc.

    Rather, EPC accounts for conversions and what is earned once the list owner gets a click to the product guy's website.

    What matters is how many people on the list click the link and then decide to buy. How many emails are sent is irrelevant and the CTR is beyond the product guy's control.

    What a list owner thinks they will make is an internal decision based on evaluating the product, the EPC for the product, and their estimate of the responsiveness of their list.

    One solution would be, assuming the data is available, is to create a carefully defined disclosure of prior emailing results and let a list owner decide if they want to do the promotion. This puts the risk of analysis on the list owner since the product owner is not making any calculation and not representing any specific revenue per thousand emails.

    That seems like a win-win, as product guy avoids the legal exposure and list owner gets the desired data, whether it is useful or not.

    For example,

    I am aware of four prior mailings for this product during the last year where the mailing was sent to at least 100,000 people.

    For obvious reasons there are no promises that past results for different promotions to different lists will reflect future results for a different promotion to a different list. This data is provided for your evaluation and subject to our confidentiality agreement.

    Mailing 1:

    200,000 emails sent
    X clicks to product
    Y sales made
    Z revenue generated

    Mailing 2:

    350,000 emails sent
    X clicks to product
    Y sales made
    Z revenue generated

    Mailing 3:

    5,000,000 emails sent
    X clicks to product
    Y sales made
    Z revenue generated

    Mailing 4:

    100,000 emails sent
    X clicks to product
    Y sales made
    Z revenue generated

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