[GURU BASHING] Who Else Wants To Bash This Guru?

by Bayo
41 replies
Who Else Wants To Bash This Guru?

Have you noticed the ongoing and upward trend, where people adopt an anti-guru stance in order to try and become believable?

I personally find it to be useless and here's why.

If you have something to offer to people that solves their problems and you know that IF they take the time to follow your instructions, which, in most cases, involves them actually DOING something to alleviate their problems, then there's no need in my mind, for you to appeal to people's ignorance and take the guru-bashing path.

When I see this in promotions, I personally (and remember, this is my perspective here), the credibility and perception of that seller automatically drops a notch or two, or three, because my brain goes..."here we go again!"

"So If I Shouldn't Bash The Guru
What Should I Do Smart Arse?"

Since you asked here are some suggestions for you to consider.

There have been and will always be 'bad' people. Hopefully, when you too impact people's lives to the level that good people who get to be labeled as 'gurus' get to, you won't want to have your reputation tarnished just because of that, I mean to be lumped in and brushed with the same label you might have been using to push your products, i.e. all gurus are bad.

What you should consider doing is this:

  1. FOCUS on the need of your customer
    .
  2. Identify some BIG CHALLENGES your ideal customer faces
    .
  3. Tell them WHAT TO EXPECT when they take action on what you share with them through the product or solution you're trying to get them to buy
    .
  4. Tell them how to PROCEED - Many people fail not because of a lack of information but a lack of personal accountability, not because they followed the advice of a guru
This is just a quick process you can take that won't require that you 'bash a guru' just to try and establish your credibility with people you want to buy from you.

So go ahead and take this approach and leave the 'bad' gurus alone. Sooner or later Karma will catch up with them...or maybe the FTC or both!

BAYO
#bash #bashing #bayo #guru #guru bashing #product copywriting #selling 101
  • Profile picture of the author jfrates
    Cool post Mr.b,thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Eutaw
    Great post Bayo! However, I was ready to beat up a guru! Have a great Day!
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    • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
      Two thoughts here:

      1. if guru-bashing = credibility, then what does credibility equal? Higher conversions because of heightened trust? If so, that's old-fashioned marketing. It is the same ballpark as a method that gets big (e.g. bum marketing) and then the copywriting kickback (e.g. "bum marketing is dead!")

      2. some people may be genuinely turned-off some of the bigger names in IM and thus find themselves caught up in the slipstream of iconoclastic marketing.

      I don't think it is anything to be concerned about. Those product creators who put out the genuine article and take very good care of their customers will see their reputation and wealth take care of themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bayo
        Originally Posted by ElGuapo View Post

        Two thoughts here:

        1. if guru-bashing = credibility, then what does credibility equal? Higher conversions because of heightened trust? If so, that's old-fashioned marketing. It is the same ballpark as a method that gets big (e.g. bum marketing) and then the copywriting kickback (e.g. "bum marketing is dead!")

        2. some people may be genuinely turned-off some of the bigger names in IM and thus find themselves caught up in the slipstream of iconoclastic marketing.

        I don't think it is anything to be concerned about. Those product creators who put out the genuine article and take very good care of their customers will see their reputation and wealth take care of themselves.
        Good post because you've hit the nail on the head with if guru = credibility. That's where, in the IM world as we're discussing it here, it does mean that.

        It isn't actually a concern per se but more of a strong suggestion that I decided to share after downloading something from the War Room that would've been a great piece if the author had refrained from spending so much time guru bashing.

        It is a trend not one to be encouraged as it serves no good purpose.

        P.S. I nearly forgot to add that the guru bashing I've seen is in more cases than not, am attempt to say without saying it directly, "You can trust me, because we're all being s*rewed by the same people."
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        • Profile picture of the author ElGuapo
          Originally Posted by Bayo View Post

          It isn't actually a concern per se but more of a strong suggestion that I decided to share after downloading something from the War Room that would've been a great piece if the author had refrained from spending so much time guru bashing.
          Sure, but what I'm trying to say is that the laws of competition mean that other people will respond strongly to such rhetoric. If they outnumber those that find it unappealing, then that's what we'll see in the majority of sales letters. I guess it works because a lot of people do feel like they have been screwed.

          I'm kinda with you though. I'm not interested in hype or underground v gurus. I'd buy pretty much any product that cleanly stated what was achieved, how it was achieved, and provided a cast-iron case study within the product. Sadly they are few and far between!
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  • Profile picture of the author betterwtveter
    You guys are right, it is your reputation that will make one of the biggest differences
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    As far as I can tell there's no more guru bashing now than before.
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Kendo
    Great post Bayo, call em' out! I'm about tired of it as well, I've even seen guru's doing guru bashing and it just makes me laugh. You've got it right, make good content for the needs of your customer, everything else will come.
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  • Profile picture of the author kurttasche
    I agree. There is too much "I'm Good, They're Bad" marketing out there. If someone has confidence in their product, there's no need to bash anyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author PvPGuy
      We at the People for the Ethical Treatment of Straw-men appreciate your strong opposition to those who create, then abuse these innocent creatures. For just $19/mo. You can help us find productive and safe environments for thousands of straw-men and women in corn fields all across the world.

      *cue sappy love song*

      As much as I hate straw men in arguments, they are amazingly effective when directing the herd mind. And you can't deny that all who have attained gooroo status didn't do so by actually doing what they teach. So there is a little bit of flesh and bone on that scarecrow that can be scourged
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    I tend to agree and disagree at the same time...

    I think it really depends on your target market. If your target market are novice marketers who have been led astray, suffer information overload etc. then ya they probably are mad at "the gurus" so it can actually benefit your sales material to pit yourself against these people.

    Then again, personally I would only buy more sophisticated products (seems like you take the same stance) so if you're looking to attract people who are already making money online or are savvy with recent trends in the IM industry then ya it might hurt your conversions to trash "the gurus" but really it all comes down to testing and understanding your target market.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Trying to big yourself up by putting another down will never work in any walk of life.

      It's covered quite extensively in Napoleon Hills, "How to Sell your Way Through Life" - a rarer book of his.

      Not that anyone needs a book to know this of couse!

      Daniel
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      • Profile picture of the author StevenJones
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        Trying to big yourself up by putting another down will never work in any walk of life.

        It's covered quite extensively in Napoleon Hills, "How to Sell your Way Through Life" - a rarer book of his.

        Not that anyone needs a book to know this of couse!

        Daniel
        So I take it OP's post will not work, as he is bringing me down.

        Anyway.. This stuff works. Bashing a GURU works. Why because most people that actually followed a GURU, over 99% fails. Whether it's due to the GURU or the person not being dedicated enough.. doesn't matter. It's about pushing the buttons the person that followed the GURU.. it's just another approach in the countless approaches one can have.

        It always comes down to a few things.. Identify pain, agitate pain, and provide solution.. So the IM niche it's pretty obvious to use this method, as a lot of us bought the next CRAPPY GURU product.. So you build rapport very fast, with the newer people and intermediate..

        If you are around a bit longer, know the ways of copy.. Well.. You might not be affected anymore. So we can go on and on about this.

        But is it worth it? My bank account is not complaining, that's for sure
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    But it's fun to bash 'gurus' -- because a lot of them talk crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zend
    I will never bash guru no matter how skillful I've become in the future. Guru has been a real help to me when I am a still a newbie, of course some people will consider they are a obnoxious figure but I think they are wrong. Gurus are also a newbie a long time ago, no matter how much you want a credibility, it is wrong to discredit someone for it. They also have done so many effort to build their own credibility.
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    I'm never quite sure who these gurus are that they refer to.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Bayo,

      When I see this in promotions, I personally (and remember, this is my perspective here), the credibility and perception of that seller automatically drops a notch or two, or three, because my brain goes..."here we go again!"
      You're not in their target market for those promotions. You'd probably see through the salesletter/product anyway.

      They're targeting those who feel they have recently been 'burned by gurus', then they specifically target the promotion/product to that kind of person. That market segments exists, so it might be more effective to tweak the message specifically for that segment, as they are doing - regardless of whether that message doesn't work specifically for you.

      Maybe the product that person is selling is ideal for that segment, so they want to filter you out and filter in those who are more suited to it.

      So I don't think it's necessarily a case of either 'do this' or 'do that', I think that it's more a case that people should be observing how marketers target specific segments of the market with their promotions, in order to make that promotion more effective and then considering whether this could be something which would increase ROI if it was implemented by the observer.

      They deliberately make the promotion provocative (to cause the reaction you had) so that those outside of their target segment immediately switch off, therefore they don't click the links and read the rest of the promotional material and completely lose faith in that marketer and unsubscribe, or (if they're observant) they don't end up getting to see and understand how others are doing their marketing/targeting effectively and therefore will continue to see their marketplace as one big group with identical needs/wants/beliefs and will continue to be less effective in the broader market.

      Same concept as long videos with no controls -

      If you feel insulted/bored by it, you go elsewhere. If you watch it all, you've just pre-qualified yourself to be on the sucker's list and receive the rest of the funnel, which you will because you choose to click the links which reveal it.

      Those who were never going to be turned on by the message in the first place are filtered out early on and it may be more effective to use this kind of filtering, although you may well come across those who rejected the concept complaining about it in forums and suggesting that those marketers are 'leaving money on the table.' Your money was never on the table for that product, so why not encourage you to eject yourself from the funnel early on? There may be benefits to this approach.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
        Have you noticed the ongoing and upward trend, where people adopt an anti-guru stance in order to try and become believable?
        Even "gurus" take the anti-guru stance

        Also why not bash them? it's the "gurus" that are giving I.M a bad name, and the "Gurus" that give good info, are always being praised so it's not all of them. Can't blame people for trying to distance themselves from "gurus"

        Alot of these "gurus" made millions from selling snake oil, so why not try to get as far away from them as possible. Do you think Google and the FTC hates IMer's because of small time warriors like you and me? It's "gurus" who sell "make $183,987,945 and 36 cents" push button software's on a massive scale, that gives all of the IM market a bad rep.

        As you know IM gets a bad rep, so I don't think "guru" bashing has anything to do with credibly, but more to do with people trying to distance themselves away from them.

        If someone in your circle of friends turns out to be a rapist, racist or what ever, you are going to put as much distance between you and him as possible, so people don't associate his actions or views with yours.

        Nowadays when people here IM, they instantly think scam, so you are forced to say "hey wait a minute, it's not like that at all"

        You know it's a problem when "gurus" are going the anti-guru route themselves.
        Signature
        " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
        But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

        ~ Jeff Bezos

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      • Profile picture of the author Bayo
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        ...You're not in their target market for those promotions. You'd probably see through the salesletter/product anyway.
        I agree with you, but a good number of people that I've had the opportunity to work with have fallen for this nonsense. I don't feel it's right which is why I decided to raise awareness and also, it's misleading people which is something that is unfair to people that place their hopes and dreams on others for guidance.

        I've met people that have bought into this and the main reason is that they believed they would finally be able;e to live life on their terms if they followed the advice i.e. to get away from living a life that's limited and dictated by the lack of money.

        For those sort of people it's more than disheartening, and there's no way that someone who guru-bashes as a way to appeal to the frustrated can justify the approach in my books.

        I understand where you're coming from and you're right as it's your perspective. However, I'm using this platform to raise awareness and openly state that it's not necessary.

        IM can be better than this.
        .
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    • Profile picture of the author Bayo
      Originally Posted by troy23 View Post

      I'm never quite sure who these gurus are that they refer to.
      Have a quick check of your inbox and you'll find more than enough examples I'm sure!
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  • I was wondering why people hate gurus so much and the only thing I came up with is they need to blame someone for their failure and who better then the gurus they paid.
    Signature
    soon people... Relax...
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    • Profile picture of the author bestpjs
      I never earned money from following gurus courses and not even following info product.

      I lost money time after time, while trying to following those courses.

      I earned money from mimic others and made my twist.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      I was wondering why people hate gurus so much and the only thing I came up with is they need to blame someone for their failure and who better then the gurus they paid.
      Lol, that is nonsense, it is one reason but far from the only reason

      I am only taking a guess here, but I'm guessing lies and deception has alot to do with it. How many fake screen shots or "live logins" have we seen to accounts that have nothing to do with the method they are selling? They do this for one reason only, because the method they are selling doesn't work.

      It's easier to "blame people not taking action" than it is to blame the actual product. These get rich products are not meant to work, they are meant to look pretty, and confuse, that is why you have courses with 20,30,40 videos of rehashed methods. Dress it up with fake logins to your past launch stats, and you got a top clickbank product

      There is a reason why IM gets a bad rep, and why the FTC is coming down hard on IM, and "gurus" have alot to do with it.
      Signature
      " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
      But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

      ~ Jeff Bezos

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    • Profile picture of the author Bayo
      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      I was wondering why people hate gurus so much and the only thing I came up with is they need to blame someone for their failure and who better then the gurus they paid.
      From the people I have had the opportunity to speak with I can confirm that a good number of people fail in part because of a number of things including:

      • Lack of focus
      • Lack of action
      • Lack of motivation
      • Too many options to choose from
      • Guru worship
      I agree with you that some people will look for a scapegoat to blame for their failure. And some people that offer services and products deserve to be called out for their fake claims. But we should note that we're not talking about sweeping generalizations here.

      We're talking about a specific type of person
      that does something very specific
      in order to sell their services or products.


      Some people will try, and for whatever reason, things may not work out for them as they expected. It doesn't automatically mean the person they purchased the system or solution from, guru or not, it doesn't mean they are fake.

      My issue is with people who use 'Argumentum-ad-Gurudom' to stair step their way into your mind.

      I think I just created a new phrase!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    Real, honest, legitimate 'gurus' that deliver value will stand the test of time and look even better after some due diligence. I don't mind at all when charlatans and phonies are called out and exposed.

    The day when people stop challenging claims, is the day the warrior forum will be overrun with spam phonies and be watered down into being useless.

    Every claim should be challenged.
    Signature

    In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    • Profile picture of the author Bayo
      Originally Posted by NewParadigm View Post

      ...Every claim should be challenged.
      I agree with the first part but disagree on the last bit quoted above.

      Hypothetically speaking, if If I were to offer something here in the forum that I know works and that I use in my business, if someone decides to throw a challenge I would simply ask them to pass on the offer because it's not my job to 'persuade' anyone to buy.

      After the seller provides the information they have with enough to appeal to those who it's a good fit for. Those on the outside who are unsure or seek 'proof' (that's why some people cook up fake screen shots) I personally would rather they don't buy because it will most likely result in disputes, bad reviews, refunds e.t.c,

      People invest in themselves and their business with me anywhere from $97 - $4997 and beyond. I've NEVER experienced the kind of issues I used to experience when I offered WSO's PLR and other types of Offline Consulting products for $47 here on the WF.

      In IM, you have to literally sell your soul in order to sell a $7 product and personally I would walk away from someone challenging me if I was to ever offer a $7 product. It's just not worth it.
      .
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  • Profile picture of the author markwilson4074
    I personally don't like this "guru" term, especially when the product is a mere hype.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bayo
      Originally Posted by markwilson4074 View Post

      I personally don't like this "guru" term, especially when the product is a mere hype.
      'Gurus' do exist and we know the phrase has earned mixed feelings in the IM world.

      I would never take anything away from people who have earned the right to be deemed as a guru i.e a great and to-be-trusted-teacher,' but the thing people I talk to have a beef with is how a high proportion of the people that call themselves gurus or refer to their 'buddies' as gurus are really not telling the whole story or the truth at all.

      That's the issue.

      Anyone of you guys that have felt moved enough to respond to this post could be a guru in your own right and in the eyes of certain people who trust you and what you believe in ... that does NOT automatically mean you're out to dupe people.

      So, just to keep the focus of the discussion on track, it's about those who try to sell themselves and their products, irrespective of whether they work or not), but try to sell based on alluding to the 'gurus' out there who they want to call out.

      You can certainly take that approach (not you personal, but anyone who so chooses to do so), my point is that it does you little to no good - an even then, when you do that, you align yourself with so many others who use that lame approach.

      ...and part of establishing your own credibility, authority and uniqueness is in being the best YOU that you can be

      Your product won't appeal to everyone and you don't need it to in order to do well in information marketing and product creation, but you will get better over time and build your own following.

      I actually think that's one of the key lessons behind everyone's comments here so far.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLCarroll
    Bayo,
    OK, if we can't bash gurus can we at least throw marshmallows at them and run away really fast before they turn around???



    (Yes, I'm easily entertained...Too much babysitting the grandbabies...Lol
    Signature
    The Revolution is in progress since Spring of 2007!
    "I only want to do it once, by myself, for free and never touch it again...EVER...then I'll retire."

    Watch this sig for updates!
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Bayo,

    Let me introduce you to a feature we have called 'Multi-Quote'.

    Simply click on the 'Multiquote' button below each post you would like to reply to and then click 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the thread. This will then enable you to reply to a bunch of people without having to do 8 separate consecutive posts. Some might mistake that as signature spamming.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bayo
    Thanks Will. I put it down to growing old(er)!

    Technology can be a beast for simple people like me.

    P.S. And I have no idea what 'signature spamming' is, but I have some thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    Around here the term guru sounds more like the devil does in evangelical churches.

    The devil (gurus) want you to fail
    The devil has taken advantage of you
    The devil has robbed you

    Fear mongering works.

    People want to believe that they have been roped off from the spoils of the gurus because it helps them avoid facing their own lack of effort.

    The problem is this crowd is not the customer you want.
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author pvijeh
    lets bash some gurus!
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  • Profile picture of the author TLCarroll
    pvijeh,
    Unfortunately, Bayo says we're not allowed. Apparently we have to be civilized and non-medieval.

    Dammit, now what am I supposed to do with all these marshmallows...and graham crackers...and Hershey bars?

    Um...Nevermind...

    S'Mores, anyone???????
    Signature
    The Revolution is in progress since Spring of 2007!
    "I only want to do it once, by myself, for free and never touch it again...EVER...then I'll retire."

    Watch this sig for updates!
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