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Stop Beating Your Head Against A Stone Wall

by Steven Wagenheim
120 replies
Ezine Articles is NOT dead.

Your niche is dead.

Either dead or has so much competition that you're beating your head against a
stone wall.

Case in point.

The IM niche for me, as far as EZA goes, is dead.

Here is a small sample of articles I wrote and their views from last month (March)

Internet Marketing Tips - Friday, Friday - 5 views
Home Business Tips - You Can't Please Everybody - 4 views
Internet Marketing Tips - Do You Throw Them Under The Bus - 3 views

And they're all like that. Every single last one of them. Pitiful.

Here are just two of my Magic the Gathering articles from last month.

Gatecrash Deck Ideas - 5 Color Madness - 114 views
Gatecrash Deck Ideas - Biovisionary "I Win" Deck - 52 views

Hell, all I need to do is keep writing articles for Magic the Gathering deck
ideas (something every kid wants) and I can probably surpass the total number
of views and clicks that I have from over 2700 IM articles with maybe 100
Magic the Gathering articles.

My MtG list is growing faster than my IM niche and I think I have all of 10
articles out there, if that. Don't know, don't care.

I'm beating my head against a stone wall. I can't compete with the Mike
Filsaime's and Frank Kern's of this world and I'm a freaking moron for trying.

I could EASILY make a more than decent living online if I just concentrated
on areas that are profitable and not dominated by names so big that I'm
trying to fight Goliath with a pea shooter. I mean even David had a sling shot.

Stop beating your head against a stone wall. If you're doing something,
whatever it is, and it's not giving you the results you want, STOP DOING IT!

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting
different results.

I'm done writing this IM crap and expecting hundreds of views and opt ins.
Those days are over for me as far as article directories go. I'm now going to
concentrate my efforts on niches that I know will produce results.

You can do the same or you can keep beating your head against that stone
wall.

Your head is going to give out long before the wall does.

** EDIT ** One last thing. My older EZA articles are doing well, probably
because they are established. But all my new ones (the last 2 years) are
all doing horribly. Google gives ZERO weight to new EZA content. Only
your old stuff is going to do anything UNLESS, as I said, it's in an area
that doesn't have a lot of competition.
#beating #head #stone #stop #wall
  • Profile picture of the author betterwtveter
    True to that, I still write articles, and the views do come in as long as the content is relevant to your audience
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Google gives ZERO weight to new EZA content.
    Yes; this is definitely right.

    But - depending on how you're using EZA - that can actually be a good thing.

    I don't want any potential customers who look in Google reading the article in Ezine Articles; I want them all reading the copy originally published and indexed on my own site (for all the reasons explained in this thread).

    I want the publishers in my niche to be the only people who ever find the Ezine Articles copy, because they're the only people for whom it's there: ezine publishers, newsletter compilers, webmasters of any good sites or blogs in my niche, etc., all the people who have content needs, for whatever reason, and go to Ezine Articles specifically because it's an article directory, i.e. they're looking for freely available content to re-publish (so I can get some of their already-existing, already-targeted traffic to visit my site and opt in, without anyone needing to use a search engine).

    Publishers "search" inside Ezine Articles.

    General readers/potential customers might search in Google (or another search engine), and I need them to find the article on my site, not in Ezine Articles, of course - if they found it in EZA, I'd lose a lot of them before they ever got to my site - nobody's click-through rate from EZA is 100%, and that means one's losing people one could have kept instead. :p

    Don't forget that Ezine Articles makes its living out of all the people who find my article there and don't get as far as my site (but click on EZA's AdSense instead, and help EZA out with their monetization). All those people are good news for EZA and bad news for me.

    So it suits me well, as an article marketer, if my articles in EZA have small viewing figures, representing only people who searched inside EZA (which is, of course, where publishers "know to look for available content" and therefore where they nearly all search).

    This is where Google has done me a big serious of favors with all their Panda Updates, a major shot in the arm for article marketers, by making it so much less likely that my potential customers will ever "accidentally" find that EZA copy. This helps me a lot.

    The one thing I'm clearly not going to do, in any niche at all, for all the reasons explained throughout this little thread, is to submit (to any article directory!) an article that hasn't originally been published and indexed on my own site. Truly, that's been a thankless and meritless activity, for a couple of years or more, and these days it's even directly counterproductive. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author dkla27
    Yes maybe you can't compete in IM through Article Marketing. But Article Marketing is only 1 of over 100 ways to get exposure.

    Seems to me you are facing a dilemma:

    1) You like the IM niche
    2) You enjoy writing articles

    Now that they can't work in combination you are willing to sacrifice #1
    My opinion is that it could be more profitable if you sacrificed #2. Stay in the IM niche but get traffic using other methods
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by dkla27 View Post

      My opinion is that it could be more profitable if you sacrificed #2. Stay in the IM niche but get traffic using other methods
      I think exactly the opposite.

      Article marketing is an outstanding way to get the traffic. But not by wanting/expecting traffic to come to your site from an article directory. That isn't how article directories work (and it isn't "article marketing": it's only "article directory marketing"). That isn't how they were ever intended to work, either! http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5068872
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      • Profile picture of the author dkla27
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I think exactly the opposite.

        Article marketing is an outstanding way to get the traffic. But not by wanting/expecting traffic to come to your site from an article directory. That isn't how article directories work (and it isn't "article marketing": it's only "article directory marketing"). That isn't how they were ever intended to work, either! http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5068872
        I totally agree with you that traffic to your site is not to be expected directly from the article directory. I never said anything like that. You do however expect to get traffic to your site as a result of your posting to the article directory. After all that is why you post isn't?
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    • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
      Originally Posted by dkla27 View Post

      Yes maybe you can't compete in IM through Article Marketing. But Article Marketing is only 1 of over 100 ways to get exposure.

      Seems to me you are facing a dilemma:

      1) You like the IM niche
      2) You enjoy writing articles

      Now that they can't work in combination you are willing to sacrifice #1
      My opinion is that it could be more profitable if you sacrificed #2. Stay in the IM niche but get traffic using other methods

      The OP has been in the IM niche for years and is most likely aware of "other" traffic methods. His point is that it is more profitable and easier to find a smaller niche or sub-niche that has less competition.

      Those other traffic methods are also beat to death in the IM niche, so where's the advantage?

      A lot of people select the IM niche to focus on because they don't know how to research other niches. However, the OP is showing that if you take the time to seek out small niches that have rabid followers your chances of success are multiplied.
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Dude, does an article called 'Internet Marketing Tips' sound interesting - even to you?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      Dude, does an article called 'Internet Marketing Tips' sound interesting - even to you?
      Does "Gatecrash Deck Ideas" sound interesting?

      My most outrageous IM article titles don't do much better. maybe I'll get 20 views at best. The niche is dead at EZA. My old articles, established before 2010, sure. They do great. I still get hundreds of views a month because they're established. But new stuff? Forget it. Doesn't matter what I write. They no longer have any weight.

      Magic the Gathering is different because it's relatively an untapped niche in comparison to IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    Stop beating your head against the wall - stop relying on article marketing all together.

    Article marketing is the bootstrapping approach. Once you're an established business, it's time to stop bootstrapping and invest in your business. Learn how to use paid advertising profitably. Learn how to put together high converting offers and get affiliates promoting your products. Invest in quality content and SEO for your own site instead of publishing articles one by one on other sites that you have to write yourself.

    There are only so many articles you can write in a day. Therefore your income is always going to be limited. Leverage is where the money is at. If you're sitting back waiting for others to publish your articles, you aren't really controlling leverage, you're hoping for it to happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Stop beating your head against the wall - stop relying on article marketing all together.
      Yep, it's just like safelist marketing.
      You've missed the boat by about 10 years.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      There are only so many articles you can write in a day.
      This is true - but I've always found that one article per weekday gives me more than enough content for a full-time and very productive article marketing business. I have 8 entirely different niches, and they each get 3 new articles per month. That's plenty.

      Article marketing isn't about how many articles you have: it's about who reads them (where you get them published).

      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Leverage is where the money is at.
      I agree completely.

      The more widely they're published, the more income I get from them.

      One article, published in the right place (not an article directory!) can bring hundreds of opt-ins. And each one can be published in many, many different places: that's exactly the power of leverage.

      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      If you're sitting back waiting for others to publish your articles, you aren't really controlling leverage, you're hoping for it to happen.
      That's why you build up a list of article syndication partners, so that that happens regularly, and reliably, with each new article you produce.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Stop beating your head against the wall - stop relying on article marketing all together.

      Article marketing is the bootstrapping approach. Once you're an established business, it's time to stop bootstrapping and invest in your business. Learn how to use paid advertising profitably. Learn how to put together high converting offers and get affiliates promoting your products. Invest in quality content and SEO for your own site instead of publishing articles one by one on other sites that you have to write yourself.

      There are only so many articles you can write in a day. Therefore your income is always going to be limited. Leverage is where the money is at. If you're sitting back waiting for others to publish your articles, you aren't really controlling leverage, you're hoping for it to happen.
      As always, Ron's right!
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  • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
    Totally agree with Ron. For God's sake, just buy advertising. If you can't turn a $1 CPC into profit, then your problem isn't traffic, it's your sales funnel.

    Russ
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Ron is right except in fringe cases. MtG is wide open and a good blog with some cutting edge articles can make an impact.

      But my personal problem goes a lot deeper than that.

      Sales funnel? I don't even have one anymore. Why? Because there are only so many "how to make money" books you can write and I refuse to just rehash the same crap over and over. So I stopped writing them. Therefore, I have nothing "new" to sell in this niche. And I won't ever again. Old stuff? Most folks have it. The shelf life of them is pretty much at the end of the road.

      I've tried JVs with other marketers (offering to write all the content for whatever idea they had) but they all failed miserably. Some never even took off. Must be my breath. I get most people don't like me, but hell, if you're going to make ME an offer (I didn't approach them) at least have the decency to follow through or don't waste my time.

      So I'm done with the IM niche. I'm going to focus on customers who aren't looking to make a million dollars overnight in their sleep.

      Yes, it's going to take a lot of time to start all over, which essentially is what I'm doing with the Magic the Gathering niche, but eventually it will pay off if I put as much time and effort into IT as I did into IM in the early years when I was making a damn good income. Oh that's another thing. Never think it won't end, because it can. I found that out the hard way because I put my eggs into a basket that ended up getting blown to bits because of Panda and other Google related stuff.

      In short, I want people to learn from my mistakes. And believe me, I've made tons of them the last 2 years. But unlike a lot of people who just go to OT and beg for money, I'm going to pull myself out of this hole myself without anybody's help. Because in the long run, the only person you can count on is you. Not EZA, not Google, not anybody. Just you.

      If you learn that lesson, you'll be a lot better off.

      And no, I'm not bitter and I'm not angry. I made this mess myself and I'll clean it up myself.

      But none of that has anything to do with the purpose of this thread. This isn't a "look how Steve Wagenheim ****ed up his life" thread. This is simply to show you that IF you write content (and yes, of course you put it on your site first) there are some niches where you are fighting a losing battle if you think EZA is going to be of any use to you, whereas, in the case of MtG, EZA has helped me a ton.

      Accept it, don't accept it, doesn't really matter to me. But if you're going to go this route (not everybody has money to spend on ads) then make sure you're not writing articles for 3 or 4 views a month. If you are, you're wasting your time.

      I'll be fine. I started with nothing and on the verge of losing my home 10 years ago and made a name for myself. I can do it again.

      Even if it's selling ad space to vendors who have Magic cards to sell at a discount to a captive audience.

      That's my plan and that's what I'm going to make work.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        I've known Steven, at least on this forum, for years. He most definitely knows a bunch of ways to generate traffic - including enough obsolete ways to recognize one when he sees one.

        I still drop most of my articles on EZA as a final resting place, after everyone else in my network has had a shot at them. And they do find new homes from time to time as publishers find them.

        As a publisher, I also have a short list of EZA writers whose output I watch because they put out the kind of article I like to use. Making other publishers' short lists is what I'm really hoping for.

        As far as paid advertising goes, I'm all for it if you can make the numbers. If you're just starting out, or you don't have the cash flow to support the learning curve, stick with the so-called 'free' methods. I say 'so-called' because every method has a cost, even if it doesn't show on a bank or credit card statement.

        Going back to Steve's original point, though, I agree with him. Every day, you see people here saying they are in the "IM/MMO niche" or the "health/fitness/weight loss niche", or some other uber-competitive major market. Much better to find a smaller piece of a niche, and own it.

        Steve is into Magic the Gathering, which I believe is a role-playing game based on decks of cards with various meanings. He's going after the niche he knows and has passion for. NOT the "gaming niche", which could be anything from tiddlywinks to tradtional card games to the 1,001 different types of video games.

        The only reason to keep beating your head against the wall is because it feels so good when you stop...
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  • Profile picture of the author MKCookins
    Thank you for this advice -and I am sure this will help many newcomers when they are picking their own niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    I agree with Ron about article marketing. It served a purpose early on, but I just found time is better spent finding opportunities that might require a little more upfront work but tend to be consistent/predictable money makers. Maybe my niche is different, but I don't see how EZA (at this point) would even help you identify good places to put your content directly (on a blog or wherever). Anyone that would take content from EZA and put it on a blog doesn't probably have a blog worth reading.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      I agree with Ron about article marketing. It served a purpose early on, but I just found time is better spent finding opportunities that might require a little more upfront work but tend to be consistent/predictable money makers. Maybe my niche is different, but I don't see how EZA (at this point) would even help you identify good places to put your content directly (on a blog or wherever). Anyone that would take content from EZA and put it on a blog doesn't probably have a blog worth reading.
      Ryan, maybe your niche is different. Or maybe just your expectations/objectives.

      EZA won't directly help you identify good places to put your content. It can help you identify places that have picked it up. From there, you can use your own best judgment about the site's worth to you. In some niches, you have to sift through a lot of muck to find the gold dust, much less the nuggets.

      As for your last sentence, you're offering an opinion based on nothing.

      There's a difference between someone using studied amounts of well-chosen content from competent writers, and the kind of hacked-together SEO blogs grabbing articles blindly based on keywords.

      If you operate in niches like forex, weight loss, dating, MMO/IM, etc., which tend to attract more than their fair share of clueless newbies and lazy marketers chasing the 'autopilot income' dream, it might look like anyone who would use EZA content isn't worth reading.

      I take articles from there from time to time, but almost exclusively from a handful of writers I know put out quality content and link to quality sites.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post


        As for your last sentence, you're offering an opinion based on nothing.

        There's a difference between someone using studied amounts of well-chosen content from competent writers, and the kind of hacked-together SEO blogs grabbing articles blindly based on keywords.

        If you operate in niches like forex, weight loss, dating, MMO/IM, etc., which tend to attract more than their fair share of clueless newbies and lazy marketers chasing the 'autopilot income' dream, it might look like anyone who would use EZA content isn't worth reading.

        I take articles from there from time to time, but almost exclusively from a handful of writers I know put out quality content and link to quality sites.
        Well, my opinion is based on something. The high quality blogs I read in specific niches don't just pickup content from EZA. It's mostly unique content with the occasional guest post from a trusted source.

        I guess I don't understand why a blog would use an article out of EZA. If I'm a blog owner and identified a good writer out of EZA, why wouldn't I just contact them and ask them to write unique content for my blog?

        Somebody putting duplicate EZA articles on a site to me just seems lazy. I know that most article writers on here maintain that it's perfectly fine to have duplicate content on your site, but I think it's a silly practice by a blog owner (and Google has said as much).
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      Anyone that would take content from EZA and put it on a blog doesn't probably have a blog worth reading.
      Mouthy chick that I am, please excuse my being a little less tactful, here, than either John McCabe or Bill Platt, above, but in my opinion (a) this is perhaps the most ill-informed and misguided sentence I've seen in the forum so far this year (and that's really saying something), and (b) like many of the other totally ill-informed and misguided statements made here, it's actually readily disprovable by anyone interested enough to check it out for themselves: all you have to do, to see it for what it is, is to find some of the best articles on EZA and use Google to check out the blogs which have syndicated the content - you'll quickly see whether or not they're "worth reading".

      It reminds me of the people (often with spinning and mass submission links in their signature files), who - in discussions here a couple of years ago - occasionally used to confabulate the "theory" that people with high quality blogs "never publish any previously published content"; and it's equally readily disprovable, and just as silly as that "view", too.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        It's nice to see that with all the time I've stayed away from this stuff that some
        things don't change. There are those who know what they're talking about (Bill,
        John, Ron, Alexa, et al) and those who don't have a clue. No names mentioned
        on that front. And when those forces clash, we get out the popcorn and watch
        the fireworks.

        And this is one of the tamer threads.

        Blogs not worth spit that have EZA articles on them? Really? Wow, I think
        that's the first time I've ever heard anything that stupid on a forum since
        somebody started a rumor once that Raymond Burr went to a restaurant and
        said "no gravy" on his potatoes.

        Yeah, this place is always good for a chuckle, even when you're dead broke
        and self destructing like a North Korean nuke.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
          If Google really does believe that having one article on more than one site is a bad idea, then why do they index hundreds of copies of a news story across hundreds of news agency websites?
          Well I can find a lot of sites that rank and are doing things that are against Google's TOS. Unless you're the Huffington Post or someone of that size, I'm not why you'd think that your site is so valuable that Google can deem it unnecessary.

          I don't rely on Google as much as I used to, but I'd take the extra steps and contact the great writer to get unique content on my site instead of recycling stuff out of EZA. Just me though.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

            Just me though.
            Indeed. A shame, then, that you so mistakenly chose, in your post above, to specify "anyone".
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          • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
            Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

            I don't rely on Google as much as I used to, but I'd take the extra steps and contact the great writer to get unique content on my site instead of recycling stuff out of EZA. Just me though.
            Are you ready to pay him $100 or sometimes even more in specialized niches for each unique article? Because I have a hunch you think unique content should be for free or very cheap. Great articles are very expensive, and EZA is a good way of getting them for free, albeit it sometimes feels like searching for the needle in a haystack.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Mouthy chick that I am, please excuse my being a little less tactful, here, than either John McCabe or Bill Platt, above, but in my opinion (a) this is perhaps the most ill-informed and misguided sentence I've seen in the forum so far this year (and that's really saying something), and (b) like many of the other totally ill-informed and misguided statements made here, it's actually readily disprovable by anyone interested enough to check it out for themselves: all you have to do, to see it for what it is, is to find some of the best articles on EZA and use Google to check out the blogs which have syndicated the content - you'll quickly see whether or not they're "worth reading".
        Well let me rephrase. None of the blogs THAT I READ ever have recycled EZA content.

        This is the straw man argument that has been perpetuated on the forum for a long time. People got hit by penalties? Oh, my sites weren't hit. People don't pickup syndicated content? Oh, my articles get picked up by high quality blogs. Of course, I'm not asking people to show their examples of these sites but I don't really see many examples of high quality sites pulling content out of EZA.

        Hey, if people want to duplicate content that is on EZA, then be my guest. You might be able to get away with it, but it doesn't pass my sniff test. Why would I want content that is available elsewhere on the web? I'm not reporting news (like many examples of syndicated articles).

        But if you want to do it, then go ahead. I'm sure we'll never hear about any penalties if they are laid down.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          Well let me rephrase.
          Well, that's certainly welcome.

          Because, as you see, without the "strategic re-phrasing", all you get is a succession of people making our livings and building our businesses this way telling you how deeply misguided and factually incorrect you are.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          None of the blogs THAT I READ ever have recycled EZA content.
          How do you know? Do you check whether every article you read has ever been published in Ezine Articles? I don't believe you.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          People don't pickup syndicated content? Oh, my articles get picked up by high quality blogs. Of course, I'm not asking people to show their examples of these sites
          You can find them yourself quickly and easily enough.

          As explained to you above (and by no means for the first time), what you're mistakenly alleging is actually readily disprovable by anyone interested enough to check it out for themselves: all you have to do, to see it for what it is, is to find some of the best articles on EZA and use Google to check out the blogs which have syndicated the content.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          I don't really see many examples of high quality sites pulling content out of EZA.
          People see only what they want to see, Ryan. People selling mass article-directory submission services don't "see" their customers being penalized by the Penguin update. Google announces that they are, and they post here in the SEO folder saying "I've been penalized by the Penguin update and Google told me it was because of my mass, automated article submissions", but the people selling the craplinking services don't see that. People see only what they want to see. And your visual fields are apparently considerably more limited in their scope and range than those of most people here.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          Hey, if people want to duplicate content that is on EZA, then be my guest.
          Thousands do.

          As you can quickly verify for yourself by checking at EZA, if you want to. Oh, wait ... yes, that's right: we already established that you don't want to, didn't we?

          Actually, they "syndicate" it - not "duplicate" it: let's watch our wording a little, shall we? "Duplicate" content refers to multiple copies of text-files within one domain.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          You might be able to get away with it
          Nobody's "getting away with" anything. You're just talking utter nonsense, yet again.

          It's an established, proven, successful business model, being used by large and increasing numbers of Warriors. That's also what Ezine Articles exists for (though I admit it's a pretty minute part of my business).

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          it doesn't pass my sniff test.
          That's your problem.

          Meanwhile, your statement above, that anyone that would take content from EZA and put it on a blog doesn't have a blog worth reading remains probably the most misguided and ill-informed statement I've seen here this year.

          Not only is it totally wrong, but it's also easily disprovable, as so many longstanding and successful article marketers here are trying to explain to you.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          Why would I want content that is available elsewhere on the web?
          Why does every leading news and sports website on the web want content that is available elsewhere on the web? Why is text on Reuters and Associated Press syndicated daily by tens of thousands of websites? It makes no difference whether your sites comprise news and sport, or not - the answer is the same: those sites want to share that content with their own readers/visitors/subscribers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Well, that's certainly welcome.

            Because, as you see, without the "strategic re-phrasing", all you get is a succession of people making our livings and building our businesses this way telling you how deeply misguided and factually incorrect you are.



            How do you know? Do you check whether every article you read has ever been published in Ezine Articles? I don't believe you.



            You can find them yourself quickly and easily enough.

            As explained to you above (and by no means for the first time), what you're mistakenly alleging is actually readily disprovable by anyone interested enough to check it out for themselves: all you have to do, to see it for what it is, is to find some of the best articles on EZA and use Google to check out the blogs which have syndicated the content.



            People see only what they want to see, Ryan. People selling mass article-directory submission services don't "see" their customers being penalized by the Penguin update. Google announces that they are, and they post here in the SEO folder saying "I've been penalized by the Penguin update and Google told me it was because of my mass, automated article submissions", but the people selling the craplinking services don't see that. People see only what they want to see. And your visual fields are apparently considerably more limited in their scope and range than those of most people here.



            Thousands do.

            As you can quickly verify for yourself by checking at EZA, if you want to. Oh, wait ... yes, that's right: we already established that you don't want to, didn't we?

            Actually, they "syndicate" it - not "duplicate" it: let's watch our wording a little, shall we? "Duplicate" content refers to multiple copies of text-files within one domain.



            Nobody's "getting away with" anything. You're just talking utter nonsense, yet again.

            It's an established, proven, successful business model, being used by large and increasing numbers of Warriors. That's also what Ezine Articles exists for (though I admit it's a pretty minute part of my business).



            That's your problem.

            Meanwhile, your statement above, that anyone that would take content from EZA and put it on a blog doesn't have a blog worth reading remains the most misguided and ill-informed statement I've seen here this year

            Not only is it totally wrong, but it's also easily disprovable, as so many longstanding and successful article marketers here are trying to explain to you.



            Why does every leading news and sports website on the web want content that is available elsewhere on the web? Why is text on Reuters and Associated Press syndicated daily by tens of thousands of websites? It makes no difference whether your sites comprise news and sport, or not - the answer is the same: those sites want to share that content with their own readers/visitors/subscribers.
            Alexa, how on earth did you get so smart? You make me feel like a low grade
            moron.

            You just keep on truckin girl. No grass growin under YOUR shoes.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Far from it. I'd venture to suggest that on the subject of marketing by writing articles, almost every well-established member of this forum who's done so has learned from you, directly or indirectly, at some point, Steven.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Let me just throw one more log on this campfire...

              Ryan, you keep talking about blogs. By what you've said, I'm guessing that the blogs you read are mainly personality or branding driven, with the blogger seeking to position himself as a niche authority. Within that narrow slice, you might be close.

              In the wider world, publishers are more interested in building and maintaining an audience than building a personal brand. Pick up a magazine. Was all of the content written by the editor/publisher, every month? More and more magazines are picking up content from other sources. Same for real newsletters. (As opposed to the pitch-o-rama crud many so-called marketers send out.)

              Unless you do the kind of search Alexa mentioned, the only way you'd know that "guest post" you just read was from EZA is if the publisher picked up the version EZA provides with their link. You are not required to add this. Many people simply use the article and resource box.

              For that matter, unless you do a search, how do you know that the article you just read isn't syndicated in more than one place? The whole idea of syndication is putting your content in front of readers you might not have reached otherwise.

              Last, for now anyway, using content from EZA and contacting writers to provide content are not mutually exclusive. Several of us have written extensively about building personal syndicates. I can assure you that it's quite possible to do the same thing in reverse...
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              • Profile picture of the author fin
                I wouldn't click on your headlines if I read them.

                This is a guess, but if I did land on your blog and read the articles I probably wouldn't come back to read more.

                The reason is because I could read those types of articles on practically any internet marketing blog.

                Maybe look at the way you position yourself and try to be a little more innovative.

                I do agree it might be more profitable in the MTG niche and wish you good luck.
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          People don't pickup syndicated content? Oh, my articles get picked up by high quality blogs. Of course, I'm not asking people to show their examples of these sites but I don't really see many examples of high quality sites pulling content...

          You weren't asking, but here is an example of an article being syndicated:

          * On a high quality blog; and
          * Mentioned, linked and reprinted on lots of other lower-quality sites...

          You can deny that this happens all you want, but there is ample evidence to contradict your view.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            You weren't asking, but here is an example of an article being syndicated:

            * On a high quality blog; and
            * Mentioned, linked and reprinted on lots of other lower-quality sites...

            You can deny that this happens all you want, but there is ample evidence to contradict your view.
            I guess we just have different definitions of a high quality site. Not meant to be mean spirited, but that's just not the type of site I think of when people are talking about high quality.

            Again, from where I'm sitting, it is not a good use of my time personally compared to other opportunities in my markets. But that doesn't mean someone else shouldn't do it. But the practice of putting duplicate articles on another site AND your site seems short-sided.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

              I guess we just have different definitions of a high quality site. Not meant to be mean spirited, but that's just not the type of site I think of when people are talking about high quality.

              That site has 600,000+ subscribers on its mailing list. Is that not real authority?

              p.s. I hear that Allen Says has that many members just in this forum, which according to Alexa is the 200th most popular site on the web.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                That site has 600,000+ subscribers on its mailing list. Is that not real authority?

                p.s. I hear that Allen Says has that many members just in this forum, which according to Alexa is the 200th most popular site on the web.
                I don't know, maybe if you're on the front-page or something. But look how many articles they post in a day? Even on the front page, you're probably getting overlooked. And just looking at the rest of the articles in the "Article Marketing" category, it doesn't look like high quality content to me.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

                  it doesn't look like high quality content to me.

                  LOL

                  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on what comprises quality content.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Some niches on EZA are still goldmines. I have one in mind that i know to be true, but they now have a few restrictions about writing about what i'm talking about.
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  • Profile picture of the author inudu
    It's all about ROI.

    Usually it's Email Marketing -> PPC -> Banner Ads -> Article Marketing -> CPV -> Blog Commenting -> Social Media -> Forum Marketing

    This is what I've experienced in the past. Article marketing is still a great way to drive traffic but you need to promote your content to industry leaders.

    That is how your content takes off and gets views, leads and sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Article marketing works when you can get your articles in front of large audiences of targeted prospects, who might be interested in purchasing what you are selling.

    This is why it is important to get published on authority websites instead of article directories. The article directories are simply a means to an end, getting your article to the publishers, who might have an authority website with existing traffic.

    I have made loads of money with article marketing, and I still do it even today.

    But, Ron and Russ both make good points.

    Article marketing is great for bringing traffic to our sites, when we are reaching our target audience with our articles. But, article marketing traffic tends to ride the roller coaster... What I mean by that is some days you will see a large flood of traffic, and other days it will just trickle into your site...

    I still do the article marketing, because with the investment of a couple hours and a few bucks, I can generally line up a one-day flood of traffic and a steady flow of traffic over years...

    But to ensure that I can get more traffic every day, I supplement my article marketing with paid traffic.

    The one way that paid traffic always trumps free traffic is that I can pay money to someone today, and they will immediately send me as much traffic as I can continue to pay to receive.

    Article marketing is like the water hose with air in the lines -- spitting and sputtering traffic. Paid traffic, on the other hand, is like a fire hose that has the capability to drown your website in traffic, at anytime you are willing to put down the cash.


    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    Somebody putting duplicate EZA articles on a site to me just seems lazy. I know that most article writers on here maintain that it's perfectly fine to have duplicate content on your site, but I think it's a silly practice by a blog owner (and Google has said as much).

    If Google really does believe that having one article on more than one site is a bad idea, then why do they index hundreds of copies of a news story across hundreds of news agency websites?

    Maybe you have misunderstood what Google has said, OR maybe Google was deliberately misleading you, because you are an internet marketer who is trying to manipulate Google for free traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author koreancowboy
    Follow your passion and your heart, focus on the Magic: The Gathering niche.

    Not only is this coming from a fellow writer/online marketer, but a fellow gamer as well. I've been playing AD&D for over 20 years, since Oriental Adventures. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author WeavingThoughts
    There are people making a killing with IM products. They usually don't rely on unpaid traffic though I wish I was one of them, and you probably are
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      Because, as you see, without the "strategic re-phrasing", all you get is a succession of people making our livings and building our businesses this way telling you how deeply misguided and factually incorrect you are.
      Seems like most of your writing is posting on the WF defending your type of writing. 20k posts since 2008.

      I'm not going to waste my time going through your points and refuting them, I don't really care that much.

      But your personal definition of "duplicate content" and "syndicated content" was kind of humorous to me. Not sure where you came up with that, but Google doesn't share your definition.

      Duplicate content - Webmaster Tools Help
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

        But your personal definition of "duplicate content" and "syndicated content" was kind of humorous to me. Not sure where you came up with that, but Google doesn't share your definition.

        Duplicate content - Webmaster Tools Help

        LOL

        At your link, Google says the following:

        Duplicate content

        Duplicate content generally refers to substantive blocks of content within or across domains that either completely match other content or are appreciably similar. Mostly, this is not deceptive in origin. Examples of non-malicious duplicate content could include:

        * Discussion forums that can generate both regular and stripped-down pages targeted at mobile devices
        * Store items shown or linked via multiple distinct URLs
        * Printer-only versions of web pages

        If your site contains multiple pages with largely identical content, there are a number of ways you can indicate your preferred URL to Google. (This is called "canonicalization".) More information about canonicalization.
        Syndicate carefully: If you syndicate your content on other sites, Google will always show the version we think is most appropriate for users in each given search, which may or may not be the version you'd prefer. However, it is helpful to ensure that each site on which your content is syndicated includes a link back to your original article. You can also ask those who use your syndicated material to use the noindex meta tag to prevent search engines from indexing their version of the content.

        They suggest we "syndicate carefully", not that we should not do it at all.

        My focus is actually on reaching audiences and getting traffic from my articles, as opposed to playing search engine games. Because I am focused primarily on user experience, Google can kiss my ass if they don't like the way I do it.

        Even still, Google still gives me a lot of love, to the tune of a 340,000 clicks last year on just 2 of my two-dozen websites:



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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL

          At your link, Google says the following:

          They suggest we "syndicate carefully", not that we should not do it at all.
          Well I know that it said that, that wasn't really the point. The point in posting that was to point out that while Alexa might have her own definition of "Duplicate" vs. "Syndicated" content, it doesn't match up with Google's.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    I can't knock anyone who is earning a living Online. More power to you. It sure beats punching the clock each morning in the rat race.

    I also agree with Steven's opening post about the better opportunity for article writers being outside of the IM niche. Valid and helpful post - no argument there.

    Since we're talking about opportunities though - those reading this thread have a choice...

    You can play in the pool where even the best at what they do earn low six-figures on average. Or you can play in the pool where the opportunity is much greater.

    You can be the article publisher, build your list, and earn money promoting other people's products. Or you can be the product owner who has the 6-figure article publishers promoting their products. One is using leverage, the other is still a worker-bee.

    Luckily I chose to play in the pool where the opportunity is bigger. And I wasn't the absolute best who did it, but I paid my dues and my little piece of the pie made me a millionaire. Now 6-figures no longer excites me because I earn that in passive income just from the investment properties I own.

    I know I probably sound like a complete snob saying that, but that's not my intention. I'm just sharing the truth as I see it and hopefully it will enlighten someone.

    Peace out
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Hey Steven,

    Is MTG a game with strategies, like poker and other card games?

    If so, it would seem like an ideal topic for video.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Hey Steven,

      Is MTG a game with strategies, like poker and other card games?

      If so, it would seem like an ideal topic for video.
      Kurt, MtG is an incredibly complex game and has a rabid following. There are
      lots of videos in this niche but honestly, I think the best ones are the
      instructional and deck building and card evaluation ones. The actual game play
      videos are very hard to follow, IMO, and I tend to stay away from them, though
      there are those who love them.

      I could probably create MtG instructional videos with no problem, but honestly,
      I hate the way I look on film. I'm no actor. I'm a writer. I could probably
      write a good script for somebody else to follow, but for me to act it out,
      well, watch some of my old videos (if you can still find them since YouTube
      deleted my main account) and you'll see that as far as delivery goes, I'm
      pretty bad. I'm not a great speaker, which is why I've never done seminars,
      though I have been asked to speak at several.

      Some folks are just bad at some things. I've learned to recognize my
      strengths and weaknesses and try to stay away from the latter.

      But yes, MtG is an amazing niche with a rabid following where video can be
      quite big. I just don't feel qualified to be in front of the camera to do them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Oh, the irony - LOL

        One guy who does know how to make money online and jumps away from the MMO niche.
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        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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      • Profile picture of the author Folusho Orokunle
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Kurt, MtG is an incredibly complex game and has a rabid following. There are
        lots of videos in this niche but honestly, I think the best ones are the
        instructional and deck building and card evaluation ones. The actual game play
        videos are very hard to follow, IMO, and I tend to stay away from them, though
        there are those who love them.

        I could probably create MtG instructional videos with no problem, but honestly,
        I hate the way I look on film. I'm no actor. I'm a writer. I could probably
        write a good script for somebody else to follow, but for me to act it out,
        well, watch some of my old videos (if you can still find them since YouTube
        deleted my main account) and you'll see that as far as delivery goes, I'm
        pretty bad. I'm not a great speaker, which is why I've never done seminars,
        though I have been asked to speak at several.

        Some folks are just bad at some things. I've learned to recognize my
        strengths and weaknesses and try to stay away from the latter.

        But yes, MtG is an amazing niche with a rabid following where video can be
        quite big. I just don't feel qualified to be in front of the camera to do them.
        Steven, my humble opinion is that you're selling yourself short. You could probably make a million buck in that market with your experience, passion, and writing ability.

        You don't have to be on camera for video. Do screen capture videos!

        Look at the top 5 products in that markets, and make one better.

        Throw it up on clickbank and voila!!

        Obviously there's more to it than that. You need a killer sale letter/better yet video, but you can make that too! Without being on camera.

        Oh and I made my first 450k in the IM market with articles and ppc ads. When they stopped working I asked myself what do I really want in this market?

        The answer was high paying web design and consulting clients.

        So without spending a DIME on advertising I made 450k the next year with only 2 JV partners. So it didn't matter if everyone didn't like me or I didn't write an article, or I didn't create a ppc ad, or create software etc...

        It's quite possible to write ONE ARTICLE and make the same thing from that one article as people would make posting 1000 articles on EZA or even their OWN website.

        Think about positioning and be creative. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but had to get that off my virtual chest.

        Now let's go make some money!!
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  • Profile picture of the author abbe77
    Now a days, Authority is becoming more demanding than blogging or articles. And what does this AUTHORITY mean?... It means rather than blogging by your own , find the experts who have authority in that niche and offer them to write for you either Free or Paid.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Joyce
    So after reading this thread, I sort of have a glass half-full / half-empty feeling.

    There seems to be quite divergent views on driving traffic in the IM niche but there aren't many specifics at the tactical level.

    What do you believe to be the best approach(es) for increasing Authority level and/or increasing traffic to your IM service niche?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by David Joyce View Post

      What do you believe to be the best approach(es) for increasing Authority level and/or increasing traffic to your IM service niche?

      All of the above?

      When it comes to authority, that is a matter of how much trust your visitors are willing to give you.

      On the traffic side, it is always best to get traffic from anywhere you can get it, but if you want to scale up and generate traffic on demand, paid traffic is best.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
    Steven,

    You've been here since 06 and you have over 16,000 posts here. Yet your still playing in the kiddy sandbox that is article marketing.

    Why?

    I completely agree with what Ron said earlier. I hate to say this and I don't mean anything personal with what I'm about to say, but...

    You are a classic example of someone who isn't adapting to the world around you. Article marketing was a big thing back in the early days, but it's not a real business. It's simply a tool and people are still clinging to it, hoping it will return to its former glory. It won't.

    In this business you either adapt to the changes or you die.

    You've been here for a long time and I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge outside of article marketing. Don't you think it's time to move on and invest your time into something more rewarding?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

      Steven,

      You've been here since 06 and you have over 16,000 posts here. Yet your still playing in the kiddy sandbox that is article marketing.

      Why?

      I completely agree with what Ron said earlier. I hate to say this and I don't mean anything personal with what I'm about to say, but...

      You are a classic example of someone who isn't adapting to the world around you. Article marketing was a big thing back in the early days, but it's not a real business. It's simply a tool and people are still clinging to it, hoping it will return to its former glory. It won't.

      In this business you either adapt to the changes or you die.

      You've been here for a long time and I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge outside of article marketing. Don't you think it's time to move on and invest your time into something more rewarding?
      At one time I probably would have gotten very defensive after a post like
      this but the truth is, you're absolutely right.

      Article marketing was sailing along wonderfully. I was getting views and clicks
      like crazy and building a list of thousands. My old and new articles were all
      doing very well.

      Then Panda hit and suddenly my articles were doing nothing. Semi retiring
      during that time for 2 years (I figured the traffic would continue as always)
      didn't help. When I finally realized that my business model was dead, it was
      too late to do anything about it short of spending money on advertising,
      money I just didn't have.

      Add to that the fact that I really don't have anything to sell anymore (I've
      stopped creating "how to make money" products) and there's no point in
      throwing money at PPC or ad buys or whatever to sell nothing.

      I've moved into Kindle publishing and have 3 books published, 2 trivia books
      and 1 novel. Sales are a joke. So I'm putting that aside for now.

      My list, that I pruned a year ago by asking people to re-opt in if they really
      wanted my content, is at a few hundred now. I'll get maybe 1 or 2 new opt
      ins a day from the content I have out there (close to 3,000 articles). I used
      to get 10 to 15 a day.

      It is what it is. I screwed up. I can't just do a full reverse and say "Okay, I'm
      going to do this now". I have no business model anymore and thus need to
      sit down from scratch and come up with one. That probably means getting
      out of the "make money" niche and selling real solutions to real problems,
      like natural hemorrhoid treatments, something I myself have done.

      Truth is, I have plenty of ideas. I know how to create a business model. I've
      actually created quite a few successful people online. In fact, a few of the
      folks here learned from me. But I'm 55 years old and simply don't feel like
      staring all over again on something that may not even become successful
      UNLESS, and this is the deal breaker, it's something that I really enjoy doing
      and would probably do for no money.

      To that end, I'm a writer and like to write fiction of all kinds. I've written, in
      my many years of writing:
      • 6 years worth of scrips for a college soap opera
      • 24 episodes for a possible TV sitcom that I can pitch
      • A fantasy novel
      • Over 1,000 songs. Many you can find on YouTube

      That's the main stuff. That's where my real love is. Up until now, none of it
      has been profitable. I've had one song published in 35 years of writing.

      IM was a desperate stop gap for me that kept me from ending up on the
      street. I was good at it because (1) I was always a good writer and hard
      worker and (2) it was just easier back then. Now, things are a lot harder
      going the free route, such as content UNLESS you tackle a niche that isn't
      saturated to hell. IM is impossible. My blog has over 1,000 articles on it and
      you couldn't find it doing a Google search for the relevant terms if you
      searched for 100 pages.

      It is what it is. Without the help that I used to get from EZA, my business is
      essentially DOA.

      So tell me, just what is it that I'm supposed to do that's going to magically
      make me even just a modest $1,000 a month without having to spend money
      on PPC and/or ad buys or some other form or paid promotion? Because right
      now, money on ads is something I don't have.

      If you have an alternate viable solution that I can do, I'm all ears.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    I'm beating my head against a stone wall. I can't compete with the Mike
    Filsaime's and Frank Kern's of this world and I'm a freaking moron for trying.

    I could EASILY make a more than decent living online if I just concentrated
    on areas that are profitable and not dominated by names so big that I'm
    trying to fight Goliath with a pea shooter. I mean even David had a sling shot.
    This is a point well made and not just in regards to article directories.

    You can forever be a small fish in a big pond or you get involved in niches where there aren't hundreds of multi million dollar marketers as competition and be the shark.
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  • Profile picture of the author tjaysen70
    EZA is certainly not dead just kinda tired. Video is where it's at these days. The typical user online wants to find info fast and wants to see a how to video instead of an article. And google will rank your video too if it gets likes and alot of comments.
    So beating your head against the wall for the IM niche maybe one thing, but also your methods for generating traffic in this day and age have changed.
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  • Profile picture of the author sme
    Are people still bothering with EZA

    ezinearticles.com - SEMrush's main report for domain
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by sme View Post

      Are people still bothering with EZA

      ezinearticles.com - SEMrush's main report for domain
      Wow, I had no idea EZA traffic had dropped that much. That is scary.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Wow, I had no idea EZA traffic had dropped that much. That is scary.
        For those trying to use it for its own traffic, then it's scary, yes. That's stone dead.

        If you're using it only for its passive syndication potential, then that's another matter altogether, of course. Albeit that that potential varies from niche to niche, of course ... which was where we came into this fine thread in the first place!
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          For those trying to use it for its own traffic, then it's scary, yes. That's stone dead.

          If you're using it only for its passive syndication potential, then that's another matter altogether, of course. Albeit that that potential varies from niche to niche, of course ... which was where we came into this fine thread in the first place!
          Unfortunately, I'm not being syndicated as much as I used to. Of course I don't
          write as much as I used to either.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Unfortunately, I'm not being syndicated as much as I used to. Of course I don't
            write as much as I used to either.
            Steve, nobody writes as much as you used to...
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    "But I'm 55 years old and simply don't feel like
    staring all over again on something that may not even become successful"

    Sorry to say it but it sounds like you've already given up.
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      "But I'm 55 years old and simply don't feel like
      staring all over again on something that may not even become successful"

      Sorry to say it but it sounds like you've already given up.
      Maybe I have Andy. But I'm certainly not going to do something just for a
      paycheck. I can go to a Burger King for that. If I'm going to do something, it's
      going to be something that I really enjoy. And most things that I really enjoy
      are either ridiculously competitive (know what it's like trying to get a song
      published and recorded and actually sell?) or aren't easily monetized as in
      there just isn't that much of a market.

      But at this stage of my life, just to do something because it might make me
      some money, even if I don't really like doing it? Forget it. It's not happening.

      But thanks for the constructive comment. It's much appreciated.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Maybe I have Andy. But I'm certainly not going to do something just for a
        paycheck. I can go to a Burger King for that. If I'm going to do something, it's
        going to be something that I really enjoy. And most things that I really enjoy
        are either ridiculously competitive (know what it's like trying to get a song
        published and recorded and actually sell?) or aren't easily monetized as in
        there just isn't that much of a market.

        But at this stage of my life, just to do something because it might make me
        some money, even if I don't really like doing it? Forget it. It's not happening.

        But thanks for the constructive comment. It's much appreciated.
        Why are you going on and on about not doing it just for the money?

        No-one said you have to.

        Your mindset sounds really messed up right now and you're focused on what you won't do - rather than what you will do.

        If you don't want to take feedback - why post on the forum? surely not just to hear the sound of your keyboard tapping?
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        nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But at this stage of my life, just to do something because it might make me
        some money, even if I don't really like doing it? Forget it. It's not happening.
        I hear one's last years are those which one is remembered for ...
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        • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
          Boy, what a sobering, cautionary tale this thread is on several levels.

          Should be required reading for anyone who wants to get into the MMO niche.

          Steven, thanks for sharing your story.
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

            Boy, what a sobering, cautionary tale this thread is on several levels.

            Should be required reading for anyone who wants to get into the MMO niche.

            Steven, thanks for sharing your story.
            It's the same story that plays over and over just with different people and different aspects of IM.

            It was exactly the same when the Adsense craze ended.

            People always warn not to put your eggs in one basket and build a solid business but when people start making money all sense goes and they forget it can end so quickly.
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            nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Maybe I have Andy. But I'm certainly not going to do something just for a
        paycheck. I can go to a Burger King for that. If I'm going to do something, it's
        going to be something that I really enjoy. And most things that I really enjoy
        are either ridiculously competitive (know what it's like trying to get a song
        published and recorded and actually sell?) or aren't easily monetized as in
        there just isn't that much of a market.

        But at this stage of my life, just to do something because it might make me
        some money, even if I don't really like doing it? Forget it. It's not happening.

        But thanks for the constructive comment. It's much appreciated.
        By 'thanks for the constructive comment. It's much appreciated' I suspect what you really mean is I don't appreciate your comment and I'm not going to listen

        If you're not willing to do something you don't enjoy then do something you DO enjoy or shut up about it. There's no point in moaning, you know your options and you can either do them or not do them. We don't care either way.

        Either learn some new IM skills or go flip burgers. Whatever you prefer. I don't really know what you expect anyone to say when you make posts like this.


        If you have an alternate viable solution that I can do, I'm all ears.
        There are solutions all around you. You need to open your eyes and see what people are doing for traffic in 2013 instead of focusing on the good old days.

        If article directories don't work for traffic for you anymore then use other traffic sources, it's not rocket science is it.

        Just off the top of my head there's video marketing, PPC, email marketing, guest blog posting (seems right up your street), banner ads, forum posting with link in sigs, blog commenting, solo ads, Q&A sites, Reddit etc etc etc.

        You don't want to learn them though, right?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    I think the irony is more that Steven posted early in the thread that there are “those who don't have a clue. No names mentioned on that front.” And then later admitting, more or less, that he doesn’t have a clue on how to operate in the current environment and that his method of article marketing does not work.

    But I agree with the salesbooster. When I first started online, I listened to an interview between Dan Kennedy and Corey Rudl. Dan Kennedy said that a business owners enemy was the number 1. 1 main customer, 1 main supplier, 1 main traffic source, 1 main employee, etc. I’ve seen this play out ALL THE TIME in my time online. Even from people that believe they are diversified. Article Marketers/Syndicators probably viewed themselves as Google proof until all the sites that they syndicate to get hit by Google. Collateral damage anyone? So much for being Google proof.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      Article Marketers/Syndicators probably viewed themselves as Google proof until all the sites that they syndicate to get hit by Google.
      Why would they care about that?

      Article syndication has nothing to do with Google at all. Article marketing isn't based on SEO. It's a traffic-generation method in its own right which transcends SEO.

      But, for the record, you're totally wrong even about that: article syndicators have been doing particularly well since the Google updates of the last year or two, because the backlinks gained this way as a small, incidental side-benefit of article marketing are all - by definition - on relevant sites. Those are the type of relevant backlinks that the Panda and Penguin updates have actually comparatively helped by effectively penalizing the others and getting the sites belonging to so many SEO-orientated marketers out of our way.

      Have you noticed that since the first of the Panda updates, the forum's been full of threads in which article marketers are repeatedly explaining the extent to which the Google updates are helping us? It's the people trying to use article directories for the "benefit" of their own backlinks (nothing to do with article marketing at all!) who were the losers, naturally enough.

      Sheeeeeeeeeeesh, how wrong can you get it?!

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5035794
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Why would they care about that?

        Article syndication has nothing to do with Google at all. Article marketing isn't based on SEO. It's a traffic-generation method in its own right which transcends SEO.

        But, for the record, you're totally wrong even about that: article syndicators have been doing particularly well since the Google updates of the last year or two, because the backlinks gained this way as a small, incidental side-benefit of article marketing are all - by definition - on relevant sites. Those are the type of backlinks that the Panda and Penguin updates have actually helped.

        Have you noticed that since the first of the Panda updates, the forum's been full of threads in which article marketers are repeatedly explaining the extent to which the Google updates are helping us? It's the people trying to use article directories for the "benefit" of their own backlinks (nothing to do with article marketing at all) who were the losers, naturally enough.

        You really, really don't even begin to have the first idea of what you're talking about here, at all, do you?!

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5035794
        "Transcends SEO". That's just great. Tell me how your method "transcends SEO" if they site you are placing your content on rely on SEO?

        I really liked the above quote, but this one is a close 2nd "article syndicators have been doing particularly well since the Google updates of the last year or two"

        I can't help but think of politicians words when I read something like that. "The American public agrees with me" or "Economists on both sides of the aisle agree". In other words, there is no way you can know how well "article syndicators" are doing. Just like there is no way that anyone on this forum can know well how YOU are doing with the methods you talk about(or me for that matter).

        Like I have mentioned in previous posts, I don't really have a strong opinion about this topic. Just like if someone was telling me they make money with Facebook I wouldn't care. I'm just bringing this method back down to earth. It doesn't transcend anything.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          Tell me how your method "transcends SEO" if they site you are placing your content on rely on SEO?
          <sigh>

          Many of them don't.

          Ezines don't, for a start: they're sent out by email, aren't they?

          Do you think part of the purpose of putting articles in "Ezine Articles" might be to get them into ezines?

          And many of the authority sites who syndicate content are pretty much unaffected by these minor Google fripperies anyway.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          I don't really have a strong opinion about this topic.
          Please excuse the observation that that's just as well, given your level of understanding of what the topic involves.

          I suspect, myself, that you're confusing "article marketing" with "article directory marketing", like a couple of others in this thread.

          You and I actually agree about "article directory marketing" - it's a complete waste of time, obviously - it was only ever based on a fundamental misunderstanding about how article directories work. But even so, I still can't really discuss it with you sensibly, because no matter how many explanations and/or links you're given, you neither understand nor even acknowledge the difference between the two.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            <sigh>

            Many of them don't.

            Ezines don't, for a start: they're sent out by email, aren't they?
            Yeah, I'm sure Ezines are only gaining popularity at this point :rolleyes:

            "And many of the authority sites who syndicate content are pretty much unaffected by these minor Google fripperies anyway."
            "Nothing to see here. Of course we are not affected by Google fripperies." Come on now, you're just teasing right? Given the vast amount of high quality sites you might syndicate through, you know the traffic pattern of them and whether they were hit by Google updates?

            By the way, I do recognize your definition of the differences between the 2 methods, so please don't think I'm talking about Article Directories like EZA.

            Like I've said previously, I'm not really knocking a traffic source if it works for you. I'm knocking the fact that you don't recognize the fact that you are more vulnerable than you think. You don't rely on SEO, but sites placing your article do.. You don't rely on Email deliver-ability, but the sites placing your article do. On and on and on.

            Reminds me when I worked in banking and used to hear reasons why a business was not reliant on ONE thing or couldn't be destroyed by another. One story about a guy who owned a hardware store who wouldn't be affected by the local Walmart because they weren't selling the same things and they were on the other side of town. Well they impacted the town enough to become a destination and change the traffic pattern in town (away from his store). Not to mention that it doesn't take much to rock the boat.

            Walmart/Sam's club essentially bankrupted Christian bookstores by simply carrying the top 10 most popular Christian books. Sometimes it doesn't take much
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

              By the way, I do recognize your definition of the differences between the 2 methods, so please I'm talking about Article Directories like EZA.
              You say that as if you imagine it somehow distinguishes between the two (and obviously you do think that, though it's nonsense) but the reality is that EZA can be used for either of the two methods. :rolleyes:

              Much of this thread is about the futile attempt to use it as a way to get potential customer traffic from EZA to your own site. Not something that article marketers, these days, would want to do anyway for all the reasons explained in this post.

              Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

              Like I've said previously, I'm not really knocking a traffic source if it works for you.
              It doesn't "work for anyone", used that way. The point you're missing, Ryan, is that it isn't intended to be a traffic source at all.

              That isn't how article directories work. It doesn't work as a traffic source. It isn't supposed to. It was never supposed to (though it could, perhaps, fulfil that function a little, some years ago, for people who knew no better and didn't think about all the traffic they were losing by using it that way).

              That isn't article marketing. It's an attempt at article directory marketing.

              Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

              You don't rely on SEO, but sites placing your article do.
              Sorry, but I'm not willing to keep telling you indefinitely that that's just plain wrong. But it is.

              It's been explained here by me and countless others in many different threads, some of which have been linked to above, none of which you've read.

              You simply don't understand how article marketing works at all. That's fine. That's not a problem for anyone. Until you start telling people who are making our livings from it that it doesn't work (and thinking at the time of something else that isn't actually article marketing anyway, as it turns out!!) and that we're dependent on SEO. Then it's a problem.

              And I now have an inbox full of messages from people urging me "not to bother trying to explain it to this misguided guy any more, because whatever you say, the words 'Sorry, I misunderstood' are obviously not in his vocabulary anyway." So that's enough from me, for now.

              Be my guest - have the last word: knock yourself out (please).
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              • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                You say that as if you imagine it somehow distinguishes between the two (and obviously you do think that, though it's nonsense) but the reality is that EZA can be used for either of the two methods. :rolleyes:

                Much of this thread is about the futile attempt to use it as a way to get potential customer traffic from EZA to your own site. Not something that article marketers, these days, would want to do anyway for all the reasons explained in this post.



                It doesn't "work for anyone", used that way. The point you're missing, Ryan, is that it isn't intended to be a traffic source at all.

                That isn't how article directories work. It doesn't work as a traffic source. It isn't supposed to. It was never supposed to (though it could, perhaps, fulfil that function a little, some years ago, for people who knew no better and didn't think about all the traffic they were losing by using it that way).

                That isn't article marketing. It's an attempt at article directory marketing.



                Sorry, but I'm not willing to keep telling you indefinitely that that's just plain wrong. But it is.

                It's been explained here by me and countless others in many different threads, some of which have been linked to above, none of which you've read.

                You simply don't understand how article marketing works at all. That's fine. That's not a problem for anyone. Until you start telling people who are making our livings from it that it doesn't work (and thinking of something else that isn't actually article marketing at the time anyway, as it turns out) and that we're dependent on SEO. Then it's a problem.

                And I now have an inbox full of messages from people urging me "not to bother trying to explain it to this misguided guy any more, because whatever you say, the words 'Sorry, I misunderstood' are obviously not in his vocabulary anyway." So that's enough from me, for now.

                Be my guest - have the last word: knock yourself out (please).

                Your posts kind of crack me up. Because I think it seems like you try to add an aura of mystery to what you're doing. It "transcends SEO" and it's not of traffic source. Oh, you just don't understand.

                The post that you pointed to references other posts that you have made where you specifically say the articles are found on other sites through the search engines. But yet, you don't rely on SEO at all. The point that you're missing is that you are relying on SEO, it's just not directly tied to you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

              You don't rely on SEO, but sites placing your article do.. You don't rely on Email deliver-ability, but the sites placing your article do. On and on and on.
              And how would you know this? Since Alexa syndicates her own content, she would know where they get their traffic from. You wouldn't.

              SEO isn't the only traffic source. Most sites diversify their traffic and as a result have a wide variety of sources to rely on.

              Like I've said previously, I'm not really knocking a traffic source if it works for you. I'm knocking the fact that you don't recognize the fact that you are more vulnerable than you think.
              Don't really believe you here. You've been attacking article syndication as if it were a passing fad. Newsflash: article syndication is older than the Internet by centuries. It's been working for that long, and will continue to do so for a very long time to come.

              If you prefer to rely on SEO, that's fine by me. But I don't really understand where you go off acting like all the traffic on the interwebs depends on Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
    It's worth mentioning that almost none of the sites I personally visit each day are places I got to by search engine.

    Now, this is probably obvious enough for the sites I visit everyday, but it's also true for sites I don't regularly visit. Those sites, by and large, are linked to by friends, or linked to from blogs and forums that are curating content. My actual search engine use is pretty small.

    I don't know how representative this is of overall internet use, but it is typical of the people that interact with regularly.

    Which is to say there is quite a lot of traffic flowing that is, you know, not directly affected by SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I have just over 1000 articles on EZA.

    I can say we do not even get half the traffic, but we still see results.

    I guess its simple to note, we should just write off article marketing altogether, however it still works, and we are going to keep using it.

    Google now loves longer more original content, and you have to romance google to

    1) Rank better

    2) make your stuff go viral anyway.

    So again getting traffic, optins and sales via article marketing still works, ok not as well at is always has, but it still works and is only the tip of the iceburg and 1 of the 1000 ways / techniques you should be using to generate traffic to your site.
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  • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    • 6 years worth of scrips for a college soap opera
    • 24 episodes for a possible TV sitcom that I can pitch
    • A fantasy novel
    • Over 1,000 songs. Many you can find on YouTube
    Got to agree with The Sales Booster.

    Not only are you not adapting, it seems like you're intentionally trying to fail with ideas like that.

    Music/college soap operas/sitcoms... you obviously wasted too much time doing things you love rather than things you need, that would give you MORE TIME to DO the THINGS you actually LOVE.

    Life is weird like that. So is common sense.

    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    That's the main stuff. That's where my real love is. Up until now, none of it has been profitable. I've had one song published in 35 years of writing.
    Great. My real love is making music.

    But I'd rather put a gun in my mouth than try selling 1 song to anyone. So I do it as a hobby. Once again, its much easier to settle with something I LIKE, that is PROFITABLE, so I have MORE TIME to do the things I LOVE, without always worrying about going broke.

    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    So tell me, just what is it that I'm supposed to do that's going to magically
    make me even just a modest $1,000 a month without having to spend money
    on PPC and/or ad buys or some other form or paid promotion? Because right
    now, money on ads is something I don't have.

    If you have an alternate viable solution that I can do, I'm all ears.
    I'm shocked that your 55 years old.

    I really am.

    My mother must have told me when I was 16, "sometimes you have to do things you hate, in order to survive in this world".

    Welcome to the real world. We all want to be firemen and ballerinas when we're young then we get older & something called reality slaps us in the face.

    So rather than find something we love to do, we find something we're good at, that can actually make us money.

    You say you love writing. But you are 55 and complaining about money.

    That tells me you should have figured out by age 35, that writing should have been kept as a hobby rather than a career. Doesn't mean you have to stop doing it, but if noone is buying your books... or your sitcoms... or college soap operas... then you are forced to make an "adult decision".

    I have tons of passions in life, things I love to do that I could never make a dime from. Then I have things I only somewhat like to do, that I'm really good at, but can actually make money doing. So, if I REALLY WANTED to do the things I love most, I would do the things I love least, just to make the money, so I have TIME to do the things I love most.

    I think thats the 3rd time I've said this.

    As far as what you can do?

    I can think of a thousand different profitable ideas. All good ideas that can easily make you $1,000/month. I mean christ, what I do now, to make $1,000, thats like 10 -15 hours of work a month. If I only needed that much every month to survive, I'd have about 28 days a month to sit back and do whatever the hell I'd like. Those things I "love".

    I would love to start naming ideas. But since you're not willing to ditch things that are probably the least profitable things a human being can doing, and since you just NEED to only do the things you love, I feel like I'm wasting my time by even trying.

    Whats most unfortunate, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    -Red
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

      Got to agree with The Sales Booster.

      Not only are you not adapting, it seems like you're intentionally trying to fail with ideas like that.

      Music/college soap operas/sitcoms... you obviously wasted too much time doing things you love rather than things you need, that would give you MORE TIME to DO the THINGS you actually LOVE.

      Life is weird like that. So is common sense.



      Great. My real love is making music.

      But I'd rather put a gun in my mouth than try selling 1 song to anyone. So I do it as a hobby. Once again, its much easier to settle with something I LIKE, that is PROFITABLE, so I have MORE TIME to do the things I LOVE, without always worrying about going broke.



      I'm shocked that yourt 55 years old.

      I really am.

      My mother must have told me when I was 16, "sometimes you have to do things you hate, in order to survive in this world".

      Welcome to the real world. We all want to be firemen and ballerinas when we're young then we get older & something called reality slaps us in the face.

      So rather than find something we love, we find something we're good at, something that is PROFITABLE.

      You say you love writing. But you are 55 and complaining about money.

      That tells me you should have figured out by age 35, that writing should have been kept as a hobby rather than a career. Doesn't mean you have to stop doing it, but if noone is buying your books... you are forced to make an "adult decision".

      I have tons of passions in life, things I love to do that I could never make a dime from. Then I have things I only somewhat like to do, that I'm really good at, but can actually make money doing. So, if I REALLY WANTED to do the things I love most, I would do the things I love least, just to make the money, so I have TIME to do the things I love most.

      I think thats the 3rd time I've said this.

      As far as what you can do?

      I can think of a thousand different profitable ideas. All good ideas that can easily make you $1,000/month. I mean christ, what I do now, to make $1,000, thats like 10 -15 hours of work a month. If I only needed that much every month to survive, I'd have about 28-29 days a month to sit back and do whatever the hell I'd like. Those things you "love".

      I would love to start naming ideas. But since you're not willing to ditch things that are probably the least profitable things a human being can doing, and since you just NEED to only do the things you love, I feel like I'm wasting my time even trying.

      -Red
      I see this place hasn't changed in 7 years.

      First of all, I didn't start this thread to dump my problems on everybody. I did
      it to make it clear that traditional article marketing that worked 3 years ago
      doesn't work anymore. Nothing more, nothing less.

      As far as my "growing up" I paid off a mortgage, all my credit cards and my
      daughter's entire college tuition including grad school without having to take
      out a loan. Why my wife did the Fannie Mae thing is beyond me because we
      didn't need to.

      And I did it all from my business and without anybody's help.

      I've worked my "jobs" and have done things that I didn't want to do. I'm done
      working those jobs and doing things that I don't want to do. I don't need
      much to supplement my wife's income from teaching. Like I said, $1,000 a
      month is all I'm short. If I can't somehow make $1,000 a month doing
      something I enjoy then I have a serious problem.

      I've acknowledged that all my problems, as minor as they are, relatively
      speaking, are my own doing and my own fault. I'm not looking for sympathy
      or any kind of help. That wasn't the intention of this thread. This whole
      stupid segue started when somebody made a comment about why I was
      doing article marketing anyway and didn't move on to other things.

      I didn't because it was working and I don't mess with what's working. I
      then went into semi retirement (things were still going well) and then Panda
      hit and my articles were hit. Suddenly, they stopped working. It's that simple.
      My business model was built on a house of cards and it fell apart. Oh well, it
      happens. That's life. Since that time, I've been trying other things such as
      Kindle Publishing. I'll find something that will catch on. But I refuse to do
      something just to make money. There are plenty of things I could do just to
      make money. I choose not to. And I'm not complaining about it. Show me
      where in this thread where I did complain about anything in regard to my
      life situation. As I said, I'll work my way out of this. I did it 10 years ago when
      I was on the verge of being homeless and I can do it again.

      But I will not do it doing something that I don't enjoy doing.

      How hard is that to understand?
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      • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
        Banned
        Steve, I understand your frustration. And I don't want you to feel that your contribution is unappreciated. I can remember when I first joined this forum years ago, the posts you made were highly insightful and very helpful. I actually regret not taking action on your advice way back when, because if I had, I would have saved hundreds of dollars on WSOs.

        I'm actually delighted to see that you're posting again, if only for a little while. This forum needs your good, solid advice, and I'm glad to see that you're sharing your experiences.

        I mainly clicked on this thread because I saw your name, and I was surprised to see you post something after being quiet for so long. Remember when YOU had the highest post count on this forum? Alexa's got you beat there.

        Anyway, I hope you can get back on your feet soon. I don't think EZA is totally dead for you. I bet you could take your under performing IM articles and syndicate them out to other outlets.

        Either way, I wish the best for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But I will not do it doing something that I don't enjoy doing.

        How hard is that to understand?
        Thats understandable.

        I see why you made this thread. But I'm more focused on the fact that you need $1,000 month to supplement your wifes income.

        And I also see that you're from NJ, the most densley populated state in the US.

        So you are literally surrounded in opportunity.

        My question is. If you could find something that was fairly low maintenance, and didn't take a lot of time to do... would you lower your standards in terms of how much you need to like it? To do it?

        Because I will throw out an idea right now. I live in NJ too.

        I own a business. And I am friends with almost a dozen local business owners in central NJ.

        My suggestion would be, and if you don't want to do it, just say so - start a lead generation site for businesses in this area (NJ). You can own the sites, do all the marketing, I will sell all the work, and cut you a 10% commission on all the jobs. Or I will outright buy the leads from you.

        But I believe with the amount of knowledge you have, and you're writing/marketing ability, you would be better at this than I am.

        I'll throw this out just as an example.

        You get 10 calls, we sell 6 on avg, avg cost per job is around $6,500, you get cut an $650 check. So if you generate only 5 calls in 1 month (which takes no time at all) you make almost $2,000. You can track the leads all the way up untill the point of sale (I have a special way of doing this) so you know for a fact you're getting paid for every job thats sold.

        As little as I know about lead generation, this has been a very profitable model for me. You wouldn't have to worry 1 bit about sales. Thats where most my leverage is anyway (moreso than marketing).

        Just throwing it out there as an idea. And if you have any inclination towards a model like this, feel free to pm me.

        -Red
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

          Thats understandable.

          I see why you made this thread. But I'm more focused on the fact that you need $1,000 month to supplement your wifes income.

          And I also see that you're from NJ, the most densley populated state in the US.

          So you are literally surrounded in opportunity.

          My question is. If you could find something that was fairly low maintenance, and didn't take a lot of time to do... would you lower your standards in terms of how much you need to like it? To do it?

          Because I will throw out an idea right now. I live in NJ too.

          I own a business. And I am friends with almost a dozen local business owners in central NJ.

          My suggestion would be, and if you don't want to do it, just say so - start a lead generation site for businesses in this area (NJ). You can own the sites, do all the marketing, I will sell all the work, and cut you a 10% commission on all the jobs. Or I will outright buy the leads from you.

          But I believe with the amount of knowledge you have, and you're writing/marketing ability, you would be better at this than I am.

          I'll throw this out just as an example.

          You get 10 calls, we sell 6 on avg, avg cost per job is around $6,500, you get cut an $650 check. So if you generate only 5 calls in 1 month (which takes no time at all) you make almost $2,000. You can track the leads all the way up untill the point of sale (I have a special way of doing this) so you know for a fact you're getting paid for every job thats sold.

          As little as I know about lead generation, this has been a very profitable model for me. You wouldn't have to worry 1 bit about sales. Like I said I can handle all of that.

          Just throwing it out there as an idea. And if you have any inclination towards a model like this, feel free to pm me.

          -Red
          I think you're talking about what they refer to as offline marketing but maybe
          I'm not completely understanding you.

          Offline marketing, in a nutshell, is you contact businesses and explain the
          benefits of having an online presence and how that can get them more
          customers. There used to be a great way to do this by buying keyword
          specific domains like dentistsinscotchplainsnj.com but Google caught on to
          this method (these specific domains used to rank very high) and now they
          get whacked and don't show up at all.

          What you did was show the site to the business and rent them ad space on
          the page, which they'd be a fool to pass up because the site was ranked
          number 1 or 2 for that keyword phrase. You charged maybe $100 per month.

          You bought 20 domains like this for various businesses and rented them all
          out. That's an easy 2 grand a month for doing almost nothing. To get the
          site up the rankings you simply made sure it was keyword relevant. There is
          a certain way to do this without it looking like a spam site.

          Problem is, it doesn't work anymore because the method got saturated and
          Google saw what was going on and took a torch to it, like they do with
          everything that they even think is not relevant.

          Now I don't know if what you're suggesting is along those lines. When you
          say generate leads for businesses, I'm assuming they have to have a web
          site and I'd set up an autoresponder for them. I guess you could essentially
          use the same method, tapping into local keywords, but you have to eventually
          show results or they cancel their monthly payments and you're constantly
          recycling new clients.

          Am I close? Like I said, I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're suggesting.

          However, I have stayed away from offline marketing because I don't want to
          get in my car and meet people, I don't want to live on the telephone and I
          don't want what is essentially a job because that's what it is. You only make
          money when you get new clients, which means you have to constantly look
          for businesses. If I want to work a job, I can go back to Dezine Healthcare
          (I was a support tech there) and make $50,000 a year. I'm done with that
          nonsense. I like my life just the way it is.

          I want to create a product (one I want to create, not have to create) put
          it up online, market it and sell it. That's what I want to do if I can't do one of
          my first loves (writing in the various disciplines)

          And at this stage of my life, I can afford to be picky.

          When they day comes that I can't afford to be picky, then I'll think about
          going back to work.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            You bought 20 domains like this for various businesses and rented them all
            out. That's an easy 2 grand a month for doing almost nothing. To get the
            site up the rankings you simply made sure it was keyword relevant. There is
            a certain way to do this without it looking like a spam site.

            Problem is, it doesn't work anymore because the method got saturated and
            Google saw what was going on and took a torch to it, like they do with
            everything that they even think is not relevant.

            You seem to have fallen off the "it doesn't work anymore" train and hit your head. :p

            There are a lot of things I hear don't work anymore that seem to work just fine, and this is another example of that.
            Signature
            Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              You seem to have fallen off the "it doesn't work anymore" train and hit your head. :p

              There are a lot of things I hear don't work anymore that seem to work just fine, and this is another example of that.
              Except it doesn't Bill. If I bought a domain dentistsinscotchplainsnj.com and
              went through the procedure to get it up to the top of the SERPs so I could
              rent it out to a client, it won't make it up there. It used to work like a charm.
              Now, it's just like MFA sites. It's a dead process.

              You don't have to take my word for it. Give it a try yourself and see if you have
              any luck with it.

              Now, I'm not saying you can't rent sites to offline businesses. Of course you
              can. But you have to go about it a whole different way and it's a hell of a lot
              more work than it used to be and it's more work than I'm willing to put into it.

              So let me qualify my "it doesn't work" statement.

              It doesn't work the way it used to and the way it works now isn't something
              that is appealing to me at this stage of my life.

              Better?
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                So let me qualify my "it doesn't work" statement.

                It doesn't work the way it used to and the way it works now isn't something
                that is appealing to me at this stage of my life.

                Better?

                Nothing works the way it used to work, but it still works.

                Maybe you have to work a little harder and be a little more competitive than you did before, but many of these things still work.

                I have sites in several niches that rank well in Google and generate traffic without me having to work for that traffic, and those sites have held their top rankings for years. I have other sites that I have to work a little harder to get my traffic. And with other sites, I only have squeeze pages on the sites and I buy advertising and traffic to promote my offers.

                I can understand that maybe you don't want to do local lead gen sites, and I can understand that maybe you don't want to do article marketing the way you did it before, but those things still produce results for the persons who choose to pursue them seriously.

                I admit that I don't do as much article marketing as I did even five years ago, but I still do it.

                I also don't do other things that I used to do five years ago. For example, I stopped building massive link wheels a few years ago.

                And it is fine that we are changing our ways. We all reach a point where we want to move beyond what we have done before.

                I decided a few years ago to move away from services and towards product creation. I also decided to move away from free traffic generation, then move to paid traffic sources and jv's.

                I have been reformed. The old ways still produce the kinds of results they always did for me, but I have decided to buy more of my traffic so I can turn it on at will. I'd much rather spend my money for traffic now than to spend my time to get traffic. Thank goodness for ghost writers.

                It seems that you are saying that if something doesn't work the way it did five years ago, then you will not entertain doing those things again. And if that is right, you're only going to shoot yourself in the foot.

                The longer I do this business, the more I realize that I need to keep learning. You have always struck me as being too smart of a person to play the "deaf, dumb and blind kid." I hope for your sake that I was right about you.

                I will leave you alone now.
                Signature
                Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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          • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I think you're talking about what they refer to as offline marketing but maybe
            I'm not completely understanding you.

            Offline marketing, in a nutshell, is you contact businesses and explain the
            benefits of having an online presence and how that can get them more
            customers. There used to be a great way to do this by buying keyword
            specific domains like dentistsinscotchplainsnj.com but Google caught on to
            this method (these specific domains used to rank very high) and now they
            get whacked and don't show up at all.

            What you did was show the site to the business and rent them ad space on
            the page, which they'd be a fool to pass up because the site was ranked
            number 1 or 2 for that keyword phrase. You charged maybe $100 per month.

            You bought 20 domains like this for various businesses and rented them all
            out. That's an easy 2 grand a month for doing almost nothing. To get the
            site up the rankings you simply made sure it was keyword relevant. There is
            a certain way to do this without it looking like a spam site.

            Problem is, it doesn't work anymore because the method got saturated and
            Google saw what was going on and took a torch to it, like they do with
            everything that they even think is not relevant.

            Now I don't know if what you're suggesting is along those lines. When you
            say generate leads for businesses, I'm assuming they have to have a web
            site and I'd set up an autoresponder for them. I guess you could essentially
            use the same method, tapping into local keywords, but you have to eventually
            show results or they cancel their monthly payments and you're constantly
            recycling new clients.

            Am I close? Like I said, I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're suggesting.

            However, I have stayed away from offline marketing because I don't want to
            get in my car and meet people, I don't want to live on the telephone and I
            don't want what is essentially a job because that's what it is. You only make
            money when you get new clients, which means you have to constantly look
            for businesses. If I want to work a job, I can go back to Dezine Healthcare
            (I was a support tech there) and make $50,000 a year. I'm done with that
            nonsense. I like my life just the way it is.

            I want to create a product (one I want to create, not have to create) put
            it up online, market it and sell it. That's what I want to do if I can't do one of
            my first loves (writing in the various disciplines)

            And at this stage of my life, I can afford to be picky.

            When they day comes that I can't afford to be picky, then I'll think about
            going back to work.
            Thats not the model I use but yes, it is a model that a lot of marketers are using. Which is the reason I won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

            I wasn't talking about subscriptions, renting ads, or even selling leads.

            Its a very specific, commission based model. There is no guessing the value of a lead based on some percieved face value (which ruins both the quality and value of the lead ). The value of the lead is determined after the point of sale, which I would personally give you the ability to track (& I'm not refering soley to call tracking).

            However, there is too much detail to explain and I already know what most your objections would be. I was not actually suggesting that you get in your car or talk to anyone but me.

            Results are "easy" to produce because they are profitable. Most marketers on here don't have the balls to demand 25% of what a lead is actually worth to the business owner. Thats why they target cheap traffic, make cheap websites, and don't produce results. Its also why most business owners hate paying for leads or renting sites. The model in itself is faulty from both sides. Its a cycle that always ends up rotting from the core.

            Unless your name is "servicemagic" (now "homeadvisor") and you have the balls to sell shitty leads to 6 different companies.

            Anyway, don't worry about it. I wasn't about to sell you a system nor did I want to frame it like I was offering you a job (which is basically what it was). Especially now that I realize it would be entirely too much bs trying to convince you that you can make great money doing this. You are entitled to do what you like, and whether you can afford that or not is no longer my concern.

            Good luck either way.

            -Red
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Steve, i dont have to tell you that this place is loaded with good solid people that can and will give you lots of good advice.

    That being said, there is a bit of a culture of desperation and paper chasing around here. Thus people are often looking for whatever works...they will take anything...just tell me how to make a dollar.

    Thats not exactly where you find yourself. You are in a different position than many here, because you know you can make money online...you have done that. I dare say you are quietly confident you can figure out how to make some extra money doing it your way....and not by doing things that you hate doing.

    That being said, i probably dont have to tell you that its pretty damn smart to get some advice from some folks who are actively in the game these days.

    like you, i have semi retired a few times. I keep coming back for the thrill of the chase...not the money at all. but each time i come back things are always a little different. not drastically...and email marketing has never died on me, but things are always in a state of flux in regards to what works with online marketing.

    anyway, you got this, you just got to put your thinking cap back on.
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    Just a Little War Room Gift.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      Steve, i dont have to tell you that this place is loaded with good solid people that can and will give you lots of good advice.

      That being said, there is a bit of a culture of desperation and paper chasing around here. Thus people are often looking for whatever works...they will take anything...just tell me how to make a dollar.

      Thats not exactly where you find yourself. You are in a different position than many here, because you know you can make money online...you have done that. I dare say you are quietly confident you can figure out how to make some extra money doing it your way....and not by doing things that you hate doing.

      That being said, i probably dont have to tell you that its pretty damn smart to get some advice from some folks who are actively in the game these days.

      like you, i have semi retired a few times. I keep coming back for the thrill of the chase...not the money at all. but each time i come back things are always a little different. not drastically...and email marketing has never died on me, but things are always in a state of flux in regards to what works with online marketing.

      anyway, you got this, you just got to put your thinking cap back on.
      Yes, there have been many changes and I have to do some studying. No
      question there. I'll do it. It's not like I'm going to be out on the street. I just
      need to cut back on some things, which I've done. In fact, I live very cheaply
      these days and I'm fine with it. I'm selling some items on Ebay, one right now
      that's going to pull about 2 grand.

      I'll be fine. If I was really worried, I'd head over to OT and beg my friends for
      help and they'd help me in a heartbeat. In fact, just seeing this thread a
      couple of members have offered their help. But let me make this clear, I earn
      my way. If I do anything with anybody, I pull my weight. I've had many
      successful JV's over the years. Just ask John Rhodes if he's still around.

      I'm not worried and for the life of me, I can't figure out where all the negativity
      in this thread is coming from because I certainly didn't come here crying the
      blues like so many members here have done over the years.

      But like I said, this place hasn't changed. If there's negativity to be found in
      something, you'll find it in Main Discussion. It's the main reason I've essentially
      stayed away from this place for 2 years. But I felt that what I had learned
      was important enough to share. Some niches are still viable at EZA. The
      directory is not totally dead IF you pick certain niches. My success in the
      MtG niche proves that. Once I build up my list large enough to rent solo
      ad space to vendors who sell cards, I'll be fine.

      Yeah, this place hasn't changed one bit.
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  • Profile picture of the author Heathj
    I gotta say, I really like Alexa

    And this is a good thread for newbies. Newbies that come here and other IM forums and sites think that to make money, you have to do so in the IM niche. Many of the top gurus, Stone Evans, Russ Brunson, empowering network and many others coach newbies to jump into the IM niche and make money.

    And....Some of those newbies do actually make money, but I think the majority of them do not. I think the majority of them just end up making the gurus richer. And, I am not disparaging these guys, they make lots of money marketing to newbies, thats their business.

    But, I am of the strong opinion that people new to making money on the internet should in fact stay away from the highly competitive niches that Steve mentioned in his post. Why would you, as a new person, want to compete in that arena? There are hundreds of thousands of other niches that a new person can jump into and compete almost immediately.

    Besides.....to me, it feels a bit unethical if you as a newb try and sell in the IM niche when you have yet to be successful in it. It's that "fake it til you make it" mentality that I cant stand.

    Did I mention how much I like Alexa? :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    To the OP, you say you don't know where the negativity came from...well it started with you.

    "This doesn't work"
    "That doesn't work"
    "I'm not willing to do this"
    "I don't want to do that"
    "I'm not interested in anything but this"
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RockingLastsForever View Post

      To the OP, you say you don't know where the negativity came from...well it started with you.

      "This doesn't work"
      "That doesn't work"
      "I'm not willing to do this"
      "I don't want to do that"
      "I'm not interested in anything but this"
      Except I didn't come here looking for advice or opinions. This thread wasn't
      about my business woes. It was about simply relaying what I learned about
      current day directory article marketing and niches.

      This forum (God, you gotta love 'em) turned it into something else.

      And they always do that. They've been doing that since the day I got here
      and they'll do it long after I'm dead and buried. Why? Because people in
      general just love starting shit storms.

      You think I haven't been through these stupid threads before that start off
      as one thing and end up as another? I don't have 16,000 PLUS posts for
      nothing.

      So please, all of you. Go preach to somebody who gives a damn. Because that
      wasn't the intention of this thread. I don't need or want business advice. I
      didn't come here crying "Woes me, I'm broke, please tell me what to do."
      Somebody decided to drag that crap into the conversation.

      This isn't about me and my business. It's a warning to people who think
      they're going to write articles, submit them to directories and get any kind
      of results UNLESS they are VERY picky about their niches.

      That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. So everybody else can take their
      sanctimonious "Steve you're a stubborn old fool and that's why you're failing"
      crap someplace else.

      Clear enough?
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Except I didn't come here looking for advice or opinions. This thread wasn't
        about my business woes.

        people in general just love starting shit storms.

        So please, all of you. Go preach to somebody who gives a damn.

        I don't need or want business advice. I didn't come here crying "Woes me, I'm broke, please tell me what to do."

        Somebody decided to drag that crap into the conversation.

        So everybody else can take their
        sanctimonious "Steve you're a stubborn old fool and that's why you're failing"
        crap someplace else.

        Clear enough?
        Haha.

        You don't change do you.

        Even while you're saying it's not about you you're still making it about you.

        I seem to remember your posts in this thread saying something like ----

        "So tell me, just what is it that I'm supposed to do - because right
        now, money on ads is something I don't have.

        If you have an alternate viable solution that I can do, I'm all ears. "


        And now you're telling us to "go preach to someone else".

        You want to start a thread and then control how people have to respond to it?

        You ALWAYS make it all about you - especially when you are saying it's not about you.

        How can you start a thread preaching to others what they should do and then spend most of the post saying how your own business has failed and not expect people to pick up on that?

        The irony of this is - people here actually care about you and would like to help you, but you only want that to come exactly how you want it.

        Even you should know that when someone needs help - usually their mindset first needs adjusting so that they can take the help in the most effective way.

        If you didn't want it to be about you - you should have left your tale of woe out of the post.

        It's natural for people to want to help when someone is in trouble, so as soon as you say stuff like that it causes people's natural responses to kick in.

        For some people they want to help, but also want to know that you will understand, appreciate and implement that help - so to question your mindset is the first step to seeing where you're at and what type of help will best serve you.
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Haha.

          You don't change do you.

          Even while you're saying it's not about you you're still making it about you.

          I seem to remember your posts in this thread saying something like ----

          "So tell me, just what is it that I'm supposed to do - because right
          now, money on ads is something I don't have.

          If you have an alternate viable solution that I can do, I'm all ears. "


          And now you're telling us to "go preach to someone else".

          You want to start a thread and then control how people have to respond to it?

          You ALWAYS make it all about you - especially when you are saying it's not about you.

          How can you start a thread preaching to others what they should do and then spend most of the post saying how your own business has failed and not expect people to pick up on that?

          The irony of this is - people here actually care about you and would like to help you, but you only want that to come exactly how you want it.

          Even you should know that when someone needs help - usually their mindset first needs adjusting so that they can take the help in the most effective way.

          If you didn't want it to be about you - you should have left your tale of woe out of the post.

          It's natural for people to want to help when someone is in trouble, so as soon as you say stuff like that it causes people's natural responses to kick in.

          For some people they want to help, but also want to know that you will understand, appreciate and implement that help - so to question your mindset is the first step to seeing where you're at and what type of help will best serve you.
          Yes, I understand that. I shouldn't have let that one poster suck me into this
          side of the conversation, but I did. Shame on me. But if your read my first 2
          posts, it wasn't about me or my business. I truly came here with the intention
          of telling people not to waste their time writing articles for directories in
          niches that are saturated to hell. It doesn't work. The results are a shell of
          what they were before.

          As for my own situation, maybe I'm too damn proud to ask for help. I've
          always been independent and have always pulled myself out of whatever hell
          I was in. I did it 10 years ago and I know I can do it again. But I need to do
          it on MY terms. And if that makes me a stubborn old fool, then I'm a stubborn
          old fool. I don't care. It's MY life. I have to be happy with what I'm doing with
          it and I can't just do something because I know it's going to make me money.

          Believe me, there are plenty of models out there that I could methodically go
          about doing that could make me a modest income but I'd be bored out of my
          skull. Maybe when the day comes that I'm facing homelessness again I'll cave
          in and do just anything. But for now, I can afford to be picky with what I want
          to do with my business.

          Hell, I could right here, right in front of this whole forum, write a half dozen
          viable business plans that if ANYBODY followed to the letter would give them
          a more than viable chance to make a modest income.

          Why don't I do them? Because they would bore the hell out of me. I'd rather
          put a gun to my head.

          You have to understand something Andy. There comes a point in your life
          where money, just for the sake of having it, isn't enough. It's why I'm so glad
          I quit my $50,000 a year support tech job. I couldn't see myself sitting on the
          phone for the rest of my life saying "Okay, first you turn on your computer."

          Life is too damn short.

          When something comes along that I find interesting AND profitable, I'll do it.

          But I won't do something just for the sake of making money.

          Right now I'm working on a project with somebody that might be a long shot.
          It's unique and it's going to be a lot of fun to do. If it takes off, it could very
          well turn into the next big thing. But I understand that there is probably more
          risk in this project than potential reward. But the key is, it is something I am
          going to LOVE doing.

          THAT is more important to me than all the money in the world. I've had money.
          It didn't buy me happiness. It paid off my mortgage and sent my daughter to
          college. But during those years, my health was in serious decline. I was in so
          much pain I wanted to die. Nobody here really knows what those years were
          like for me. But in 2010, just before my business tanked, I got my health back
          because of something I found on the Internet of all places. I have now been
          pain free for exactly 2 years and 7 months tomorrow. That's right, I celebrate
          my anniversary because I finally have my life back. I'm not giving that up for
          all the tea in China.

          So I apologize if anything I said made it sound like this was at all about me. I'
          realize that you're trying to help. I'm fine. I'll survive. I've done it before and
          I can do it again.

          But I have to do it on MY terms.

          And if MY terms don't work, then it's MY problem.

          Right?
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            So I apologize if anything I said made it sound like this was at all about me. I'
            realize that you're trying to help. I'm fine. I'll survive. I've done it before and
            I can do it again.

            But I have to do it on MY terms.

            And if MY terms don't work, then it's MY problem.

            Right?
            No worries.

            You're right of course and I think many people can relate to much of what you said. I know I can.

            I'm the same in many ways.

            Keep on truckin - you're an intelligent guy and you have a lot of knowledge and experience so I'm sure you'll come up with something.

            If you do need help - you know you can ask for it.
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              No worries.

              You're right of course and I think many people can relate to much of what you said. I know I can.

              I'm the same in many ways.

              Keep on truckin - you're an intelligent guy and you have a lot of knowledge and experience so I'm sure you'll come up with something.

              If you do need help - you know you can ask for it.
              Of course I know I could come here and ask for help. That's why I haven't.
              Don't you think I know, when push comes to shove, how much this forum
              has done to help so many people.

              Call it my stupid pride but I don't want to be one of them.

              In my whole life, I've never asked anybody for help. Not even my parents.
              I have been independent since the day I can remember. Hell, I moved out of
              my house and didn't even have a job yet. But I sure as hell found one fast.
              And it was a good one, with AT&T no less. Hell, if I had stayed there instead
              of not being content with being a consultant (an overpaid one at that) I
              might have become an executive with the company.

              And I'd probably be MISERABLE today.

              Everything that has happened in my life has happened for a reason. This
              latest setback is no different. Maybe I finally get to do what I want to do
              and not just because it "makes money." It seems that's all I've ever done
              my whole life is do stuff because it makes money.

              When I'm dead, none of that money is coming with me.

              For once. Just for once, I want to do something fun.

              Thank you again for your concern. We've known each other a long time. And
              no, I haven't changed. I'm still a stubborn son of bitch who ultimately does
              what he wants regardless of all the evidence around me that I'm either
              wasting my time at best or insane at worst.

              That's why most people either love me or hate me. There's not a lot of in
              between with me.

              And I wouldn't have it any other way.
              Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    I don’t think people can help but offer Steven advice because what he is saying sounds kind of silly (no offense). If you need (or would like) $1,000/month, then why don’t you just take the easiest road possible to get there? By doing it the easiest way possible, you free up time to just enjoy the stuff you’re passionate about…free of tying them into some money making opportunity.

    I guess I view business different. I choose things I enjoy doing, but I want the most efficient/profitable business possible. That freedom allows me time to DO the things I’m passionate about instead of writing about them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      I don't think people can help but offer Steven advice because what he is saying sounds kind of silly (no offense). If you need (or would like) $1,000/month, then why don't you just take the easiest road possible to get there? By doing it the easiest way possible, you free up time to just enjoy the stuff you're passionate about...free of tying them into some money making opportunity.

      I guess I view business different. I choose things I enjoy doing, but I want the most efficient/profitable business possible. That freedom allows me time to DO the things I'm passionate about instead of writing about them.
      That's where you and I are different. For me, I don't want to spend one second
      doing something I don't want to do unless I absolutely have to.

      And thank God I live in a free society where I am allowed that luxury.
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        That's where you and I are different. For me, I don't want to spend one second
        doing something I don't want to do unless I absolutely have to.

        And thank God I live in a free society where I am allowed that luxury.
        I can smell the fear of change coming through your posts.

        You don't live in a free society. You live in America. If you lived in a 'free society' you wouldn't need $1,000 a month to fill in an 'income gap.' Everything would be free.

        But it's not. Nobody gets to sit around 'doing what they love' all day.

        Life is about work. You have motivated me to go do a lot more of it with this thread Have a great day :p
        Signature
        Free Special Report on Mindset - Level Up with Positive Thinking
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by fin View Post

          Steve,

          Have you thought about freelance writing?

          You could easily make $1000 per month doing something you love, albeit for someone else, and you'd still have plenty of time to work on your own things if you only want to make 1K.
          Freelance writing is still a job. You have to write what people want you to
          write. Sure, I can pick and choose my jobs, but I doubt I'll get many that
          interest me. Certainly not enough to make even close to $1K a month.

          Having said that, I belong to Elance and I do check it. Found one thing I was
          interested in and may apply. It's $500 to write a short mystery novel set in
          Hollywood. If they like it, they commission me to do more. I'm considering it.

          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          I can smell the fear of change coming through your posts.

          You don't live in a free society. You live in America. If you lived in a 'free society' you wouldn't need $1,000 a month to fill in an 'income gap.' Everything would be free.

          But it's not. Nobody gets to sit around 'doing what they love' all day.

          Life is about work. You have motivated me to go do a lot more of it with this thread Have a great day :p
          You don't know a damn thing about me. Fear? I am afraid of nothing, not
          even death itself. I've been through more pain in my life than you can
          possibly even imagine. So please don't tell me what you smell. The only thing
          you smell is your own self thought of image of me.
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Freelance writing is still a job. You have to write what people want you to
            write. Sure, I can pick and choose my jobs, but I doubt I'll get many that
            interest me. Certainly not enough to make even close to $1K a month.

            Having said that, I belong to Elance and I do check it. Found one thing I was
            interested in and may apply. It's $500 to write a short mystery novel set in
            Hollywood. If they like it, they commission me to do more. I'm considering it.



            You don't know a damn thing about me. Fear? I am afraid of nothing, not
            even death itself. I've been through more pain in my life than you can
            possibly even imagine. So please don't tell me what you smell. The only thing
            you smell is your own self thought of image of me.
            Okay Rambo...
            Signature
            Free Special Report on Mindset - Level Up with Positive Thinking
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Freelance writing is still a job. You have to write what people want you to
              write. Sure, I can pick and choose my jobs, but I doubt I'll get many that
              interest me. Certainly not enough to make even close to $1K a month.

              Having said that, I belong to Elance and I do check it. Found one thing I was
              interested in and may apply. It's $500 to write a short mystery novel set in
              Hollywood. If they like it, they commission me to do more. I'm considering it.

              You don't know a damn thing about me. Fear? I am afraid of nothing, not
              even death itself.               I've been through more pain in my life than you can
              possibly even imagine. So please don't tell me what you smell. The only thing
              you smell is your own self thought of image of me.
              Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

              Okay Rambo...

              I bet if you went to his house and stuck a gun in his face, he would crap his pants. :p
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      I don't think people can help but offer Steven advice because what he is saying sounds kind of silly (no offense). If you need (or would like) $1,000/month, then why don't you just take the easiest road possible to get there? By doing it the easiest way possible, you free up time to just enjoy the stuff you're passionate about...free of tying them into some money making opportunity.

      I guess I view business different. I choose things I enjoy doing, but I want the most efficient/profitable business possible. That freedom allows me time to DO the things I'm passionate about instead of writing about them.
      Yes that sounds like a decent plan.

      But I do get where Steve is coming from. I've been in some of the most amazing places in the world making great money and still felt like I'm not fulfilled and dropped many IM activities which made me money because ultimately I didn't want to fill my life up with stuff that made money if I was still lacking fundamental fulfillment.

      Money is just a token to be traded for something - in itself the main reason to have it is because people will interfere with you if you don't give them some (government etc.), so you definitely need to have some focus on making money at least to the point where it removes your need to make more.

      However, it's easy to think that money is a goal in itself and if you make making money your main goal then you're missing the point.

      None of us know how long we have on this planet and life is a journey not a destination. So it's important that you don't get tied into a life of making money and thinking "I can relax and be happy when I retire" - you may not get that day.

      So, while from an outsiders perspective it's easy to criticise Steven for his lack of focus on money - he is clear about his priorities and I have to say that regardless of his current financial situation I respect those priorities.

      The balance he's seeking is a realistic goal, but most people take the first shortcut they find when they start making money and forget it was supposed to be a means to an end.

      Imagine if a TV station liked his music and thought his opinions about things were entertaining and wanted to pay him to host a tv program where he had bands and musicians on, played his own stuff and got to talk about whatever he wanted to that was in the news that week - he could be completely happy and making great money.

      It's not that you HAVE to give up on making your passions your priority - it's just not always easy to create a great revenue stream around your passions and many people who try end up turning a passion into a job they don't like, so it definitely needs careful consideration.

      But anything is possible. Especially in this age of internet technology and social media.

      He may be crazy for looking for his perfect solution but you gotta give him credit for having the balls to shoot for the stars and make himself accountable for his results.
      Signature

      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        None of us know how long we have on this planet and life is a journey not a destination. So it's important that you don't get tied into a life of making money and thinking "I can relax and be happy when I retire" - you may not get that day.

        Case in point.

        My dad spent his entire adult life working towards retirement, when he could spend the rest of his days doing the one thing he enjoyed most full-time -- bass fishing.

        He retired at 62, and then six-months later, found himself fighting for his life.

        He died one year later, when he was 6-months past his 63rd birthday.

        After spending an entire life looking forward to endless days on the lake in his bass boat, he got to spend roughly 6-months on the lake, then he could not go out again before his death one year later.

        None of us know what the future holds in store for us... And putting off until tomorrow what you could enjoy doing today doesn't always work out as planned.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author GlenH
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Case in point.

          My dad spent his entire adult life working towards retirement, when he could spend the rest of his days doing the one thing he enjoyed most full-time -- bass fishing.

          He retired at 62, and then six-months later, found himself fighting for his life.

          He died one year later, when he was 6-months past his 63rd birthday.

          After spending an entire life looking forward to endless days on the lake in his bass boat, he got to spend roughly 6-months on the lake, then he could not go out again before his death one year later.

          None of us know what the future holds in store for us... And putting off until tomorrow what you could enjoy doing today doesn't always work out as planned.
          How true those words are
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Case in point.

          My dad spent his entire adult life working towards retirement, when he could spend the rest of his days doing the one thing he enjoyed most full-time -- bass fishing.

          He retired at 62, and then six-months later, found himself fighting for his life.

          He died one year later, when he was 6-months past his 63rd birthday.

          After spending an entire life looking forward to endless days on the lake in his bass boat, he got to spend roughly 6-months on the lake, then he could not go out again before his death one year later.

          None of us know what the future holds in store for us... And putting off until tomorrow what you could enjoy doing today doesn't always work out as planned.
          I understand this thought process, but I guess I don't understand the all or nothing mentality.

          I guess I just view certain things as sacrifices for the greater good. My wife made me go to some get-together with work friends last night. I didn't WANT to go, but I had a good time when i was there and it was important to her.

          I might not really want to stay up late working on websites, but it's not THAT much of a hassle to me. And it allows me to provide for kids college, retirement, to go on vacations, etc.

          Now if doing what I was doing was causing me to be so stressed I couldn't sleep or eat, then I'd reconsider.

          But I guess because you don't like some aspects (maybe some of the work), but you do enjoy the upside ($1,000/month). I would chalk that up as a NET win for everybody.

          I don't know...I can see some old dude saying he doesn't want to cut his grass because he's old and he has money to pay someone. I don't understand someone not wanting to do something they don't want to do, while at the same time saying they would like to earn money.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

            I understand this thought process, but I guess I don't understand the all or nothing mentality.

            I guess I just view certain things as sacrifices for the greater good. My wife made me go to some get-together with work friends last night. I didn't WANT to go, but I had a good time when i was there and it was important to her.

            I might not really want to stay up late working on websites, but it's not THAT much of a hassle to me. And it allows me to provide for kids college, retirement, to go on vacations, etc.

            Now if doing what I was doing was causing me to be so stressed I couldn't sleep or eat, then I'd reconsider.

            But I guess because you don't like some aspects (maybe some of the work), but you do enjoy the upside ($1,000/month). I would chalk that up as a NET win for everybody.

            I don't know...I can see some old dude saying he doesn't want to cut his grass because he's old and he has money to pay someone. I don't understand someone not wanting to do something they don't want to do, while at the same time saying they would like to earn money.
            Because I've already done all that. I've worked the 14 hour days. I made crap
            tons of money. More than I knew what to do with. During that time, I was
            sick, in pain, and miserable. Now, this is the happiest I've been in over 2 and
            a half years.

            But like I said, some people just won't get it.
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            • Profile picture of the author fin
              Steve,

              Have you thought about freelance writing?

              You could easily make $1000 per month doing something you love, albeit for someone else, and you'd still have plenty of time to work on your own things if you only want to make 1K.
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        • Profile picture of the author Christophe Young
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Case in point.

          My dad spent his entire adult life working towards retirement, when he could spend the rest of his days doing the one thing he enjoyed most full-time -- bass fishing.

          He retired at 62, and then six-months later, found himself fighting for his life.

          He died one year later, when he was 6-months past his 63rd birthday.

          After spending an entire life looking forward to endless days on the lake in his bass boat, he got to spend roughly 6-months on the lake, then he could not go out again before his death one year later.

          None of us know what the future holds in store for us... And putting off until tomorrow what you could enjoy doing today doesn't always work out as planned.
          This really hit home.

          It really is important to enjoy life and not wait for the prize that may not come in the end.

          My father worked at two banks during his whole life and was very successful. He eventually worked his way up to President and CEO of a successful bank in Sacramento.

          At the young age of 62, he decided to retire and spend more time with my Mother who has Parkinson's. He also LOVED golfing and was all set to golf everyday at the course next to where he lived and ride around in his fancy new golf cart.

          We went to his amazing retirement party where everyone, including friends, family and co-workers were all in attendance. It was a great time.

          Then four months later, all of us attended his funeral at the same location.

          Life is short, do what you LOVE now. Money doesn't always buy happiness!
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      • Profile picture of the author fin
        Don't let your ego prevent you from having success, kids.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Yes that sounds like a decent plan.

        But I do get where Steve is coming from. I've been in some of the most amazing places in the world making great money and still felt like I'm not fulfilled and dropped many IM activities which made me money because ultimately I didn't want to fill my life up with stuff that made money if I was still lacking fundamental fulfillment.

        Money is just a token to be traded for something - in itself the main reason to have it is because people will interfere with you if you don't give them some (government etc.), so you definitely need to have some focus on making money at least to the point where it removes your need to make more.

        However, it's easy to think that money is a goal in itself and if you make making money your main goal then you're missing the point.

        None of us know how long we have on this planet and life is a journey not a destination. So it's important that you don't get tied into a life of making money and thinking "I can relax and be happy when I retire" - you may not get that day.

        So, while from an outsiders perspective it's easy to criticise Steven for his lack of focus on money - he is clear about his priorities and I have to say that regardless of his current financial situation I respect those priorities.

        The balance he's seeking is a realistic goal, but most people take the first shortcut they find when they start making money and forget it was supposed to be a means to an end.

        Imagine if a TV station liked his music and thought his opinions about things were entertaining and wanted to pay him to host a tv program where he had bands and musicians on, played his own stuff and got to talk about whatever he wanted to that was in the news that week - he could be completely happy and making great money.

        It's not that you HAVE to give up on making your passions your priority - it's just not always easy to create a great revenue stream around your passions and many people who try end up turning a passion into a job they don't like, so it definitely needs careful consideration.

        But anything is possible. Especially in this age of internet technology and social media.

        He may be crazy for looking for his perfect solution but you gotta give him credit for having the balls to shoot for the stars and make himself accountable for his results.
        Bless you Andy. You get it. Thank you. You get it.

        Maybe everybody else will too. If not, oh well.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

        Yeah, I'm sure Ezines are only gaining popularity at this point :rolleyes:
        The term "ezine" has been polluted in many markets. Especially the ones most popular with the 'desperate buyer' IMers. Sign up for an ezine or newsletter in these markets, and the odds are stacked heavily in favor of thinly disguised salesletters, and not-so-thinly disguised pitch storms.

        Between marketers who don't really know anything about marketing and article writers who know nothing about writing, 'ezines' are heading where 'free ebook by email' ended up. You used to be able to make a reasonable offer, and people with an interest would check it out. Now you seem to need all kinds of gimmicks, like videos with no controls and delayed CTA, or endless popups, or...

        Once you get outside of that rat race, building an audience for an ezine is still doable.


        Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

        Like I've said previously, I'm not really knocking a traffic source if it works for you. I'm knocking the fact that you don't recognize the fact that you are more vulnerable than you think. You don't rely on SEO, but sites placing your article do.. You don't rely on Email deliver-ability, but the sites placing your article do. On and on and on.
        As often as we've butted heads on this topic, I do agree with you on this one, at least part way.

        Yes, some of the sites that use my stuff rely on SEO. And many of the others don't do anything to keep search traffic out.

        And anyone who relies on mailing to a list has to be concerned with deliverability issues, at least on a macro level.

        But I think you're missing part of the point. Those of us using this particular model are mainly not trying to place articles for SEO reasons. We're trying to reach human eyeballs. And for the most part, the sites we syndicate to are not picking up our content (at least mine) because of its keyword density or some other technical factor. Presenting content that gets liked, shared, linked, commented on, etc. does enhance the SEO of a site. That's different than simply "building backlinks"...
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          The term "ezine" has been polluted in many markets. Especially the ones most popular with the 'desperate buyer' IMers. Sign up for an ezine or newsletter in these markets, and the odds are stacked heavily in favor of thinly disguised salesletters, and not-so-thinly disguised pitch storms.

          Between marketers who don't really know anything about marketing and article writers who know nothing about writing, 'ezines' are heading where 'free ebook by email' ended up. You used to be able to make a reasonable offer, and people with an interest would check it out. Now you seem to need all kinds of gimmicks, like videos with no controls and delayed CTA, or endless popups, or...

          Once you get outside of that rat race, building an audience for an ezine is still doable.




          As often as we've butted heads on this topic, I do agree with you on this one, at least part way.

          Yes, some of the sites that use my stuff rely on SEO. And many of the others don't do anything to keep search traffic out.

          And anyone who relies on mailing to a list has to be concerned with deliverability issues, at least on a macro level.

          But I think you're missing part of the point. Those of us using this particular model are mainly not trying to place articles for SEO reasons. We're trying to reach human eyeballs. And for the most part, the sites we syndicate to are not picking up our content (at least mine) because of its keyword density or some other technical factor. Presenting content that gets liked, shared, linked, commented on, etc. does enhance the SEO of a site. That's different than simply "building backlinks"...
          I know that the articles you're talking about are not written to rank or build backlinks. But Alexa's comments are just very humorous to me. The fact that someone could think they are completely insulated even though they aren't "doing seo" or sending the email out.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

            I know that the articles you're talking about are not written to rank or build backlinks. But Alexa's comments are just very humorous to me. The fact that someone could think they are completely insulated even though they aren't "doing seo" or sending the email out.
            I think what a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that content in general
            makes the Internet what it is.

            Go to Google and look up just about anything at all. What do you find in the
            search results? Either articles or videos or both in some cases. Go to AP or UPI
            and you'll see news articles that appear at no less than 20 - 30 sites. Syndication
            is almost a necessity in order to promote healthy competition.

            Imagine if just ONE site was allowed to print an article about a certain
            subject and/or any other site that printed the same article was excluded
            from the SERPs. The Internet, as we know it, would cease to exist. If you
            weren't the first one to get in on a particular niche or story or whatever, you
            were without any way of monetizing your content. You might as well just
            give up.

            But that's not the way it works. I can go look up any current event right now
            and can easily find 20 sites printing the exact same news story. You don't
            have to take my word for it. Go do a search on various subjects and look at
            all the supposed "duplicate content" that is on the first page of Google.

            Where people who write articles make their mistakes (and I am just as guilty
            of this as anyone else) is relying on 3rd party sites to publish your content
            and bring visitors to YOUR site. That used to work fine. Now, not so much,
            especially if you're relying on article directories.

            Today, you need to write amazing articles on your subject so that other
            "real" authority sites (not directories) want to publish them. And they will IF they're good enough.

            These marketers who write 250 word pieces of crap will get nowhere today.
            Nobody will republish them (at least nobody who is worth their weight in
            spam) and no article directory will have enough weight to push them up the
            SERPs. The only exceptions are in the niches with very little competition. And
            how many of them are there that are even worth going after unless they are
            brand new and you're speculating that they'll take off.

            One speculation method that a lot of marketers use (I don't) is setting up
            sites for celebrities who they believe will pass away soon. Yes, absolutely
            ghoulish but that's what they do. And then, after the celebrity passes,
            especially if they're a big celebrity, their site suddenly takes off like crazy.
            Sites like JohnDoeMemorial.com.

            The problem with this business model is you have to invest in a ton of
            domains and only a few of them ever pay off.

            Point is, if you want to get into a niche that has immediate income potential,
            that niche is more likely than not going to be competitive. And to compete in
            those niches, you can't write crappy 250 word articles and submit them to
            directories. You need to have your own site, post your articles there first
            (and good articles) and then go about getting syndication deals, in some
            cases even going directly to a web site and making a proposal. If you're
            going to go the content route, it's not as easy as it was 5 years ago. But it
            is still doable. And syndicated content is definitely the way to go.

            Just make sure you have something worth reading or you're just wasting
            your time.
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Freelancing is definitely a job, but you can also find one that lets you be creative.

    Sometimes you only get given a niche and you can write about anything that takes your fancy.

    There are jobs that require you to write something very specific, but these are usually other internet marketers.

    It might be worth a look around for something that brings in a little money until your MtG website becomes successful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Susan A
    Thank you for saying that! My article on ezines is definitely dead, so I stop doing ezines article writing just like everyone else. But right now, at this point, after digging a hole, I stumble upon a perfectly good niche. So I think I will visit ezines again and try to write at least five articles and see how it going.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      In the highest connotation of the term "article marketing", this business model is extremely powerful. Because of the inherent nature of syndication, it can become even more effective in the more competitive niches. But lame content sprinkled with keywords are not "articles", nor can blasting such garbage to directories be considered "marketing".

      The failure of "article marketing" is not in the model itself, but rather in the lack of real articles and real marketing. As many successful article marketers have experienced, the process of "article marketing" is really much more than just submitting content to article directories. In essence, it involves writing marketable articles as well as marketing articles to publications targeting your market.

      And for maximum article performance, there really are minimum standards that must be met, including reader and publisher expectations in literacy, grammar, relevance, engaging style, etc. These metrics are integral factors for improving overall article performance. In writing for syndication, take into consideration not only what publishers require, but also expectations of the readership audience.

      In my experience, long articles drive more targeted traffic - both in quantity and quality. Although all publishers have minimum standards and article length requirements, there does seem to be a subtle perception that longer articles are more substantive, which tends to confer a sort of "assumptive authority". In competitive niches, writing style and article length can be the razor's edge for engaging the reader enough to respond favorably to a call to action.

      This model of article marketing through active syndication - writing to directly engage targeted readers using the leverage of strategic alliances through syndicated partners, is extremely powerful. Assuming the article has other positive engaging factors relevant to the reader, and coupled with the leverage achieved through syndication, it can drive massive and highly targeted traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author jchengery
    Hello Steven,

    Thank you for the sage advice - you always have great information to share.

    I agree that certain niches are dead in terms of promoting them on EzineArticles and other article directories. Things are so saturated in certain niches that trying to get people to notice your relatively few articles is harder than finding a needle in a haystack or your nose in a heavy fog.

    I agree that writing articles is still quite effective, just as blog posts are. But, on article directory sites like EzineArticles, you have to pick and choose your niches carefully, ones that certainly aren't saturated.

    I agree too that, life is too short to keep banging your head against the wall - I mean, I don't think anyone likes to keep banging their head against the wall and giving themselves a headache. :-) Yet, that's what many people do when they take on specific niches (ex. IM), especially with methods that just don't work anymore.

    You either have to change the niche you're in, change the marketing method you're using, or even both. That's why testing and tracking are so important; if you aren't doing that in your marketing and making adjustments, you won't succeed online.

    As I said in another post recently, IM = Life - you have to make adaptations in life based on your particular circumstances; the same holds true in IM (i.e. online/niche marketing) - if you don't adapt, you'll go splat. ("Splat" may not be the most ideal word, but it fits, and it rhymes too! :-)

    Again, thanks for the advice, Steven - great advice, as always!

    Take care,

    Joe Chengery
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  • Profile picture of the author dbrwn
    It is definitely true that you need to locate a niche that is more profitable for you. If you find tht the niche that you're in isn't producing like you think that it should then it is time that you move onto another niche that is more profitable for you.

    There's room on the net for everybody,m even in the IM niche. It isn't too saturated because there are always new people coming onto the net for the first time and they need information just like you did when you first started out.

    What you need to do is to find a niche that you're completely satisfied with, work that niche and find out all you can about it and create products for that niche and sell them. Some niches are better than others when it comes to making money online with them. This is why research is so crutial.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      Steven, I know that articles are posted on multiple sites, but it doesn't mean that many people are reading them. Even if a site is "quality" (in terms of overall traffic), it's not like everyone gets an equal share of the pie. If the example given is this thread is indicative of what these sites are like, I'm betting that there isn't much traffic to come from that.

      There are a bunch of people that I can point to that probably do extremely well from syndicating their own articles....take Tom Venuto who is the author of the popular fitness ebook. Worked in gyms his whole life, personal trainer, natural bodybuilder, effective communicator, successful ebook and community, and NY times bestseller. THAT guy has the street cred in one niche where I don't doubt for a second that his content partners are high quality. Ditto with guys like Dan Thies in the SEO world.

      I guess I have a hard time believing that these "jack of all trades" types who have no specific specialty and write under pen names (cue Mark Twain reference) are getting this same type of content partners as a bonafide expert.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
    Man, think of where you could be if all those articles were pages in books that you sold as products instead.
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