Have Finally Run Into Something I Can't Handle

119 replies
I desperately need the help of you brilliant warriors. I have a situation with
a customer that I just don't know how to handle. As a matter of fact, I am
at the end of my rope with this.

I won't give you the whole long story but here is the gist of it.

The customer wants to use one of my sales letters to sell a product of mine
that, first of all, he has no rights to sell. It does not have an affiliate program,
does not come with any PLR or MRR rights and is for personal use only.

I explained this to him in an email I sent last night. I also researched his
sales history and pointed him to a product of mine he got that DOES come
with MRR rights that he can sell. It has the sales page already done. All he
has to do is slap on his PayPal button.

I thought this would be the end of it.

Today, I get an email back saying he just wants to use this other sales
letter to promote something else.

I tried explaining to him that this is fraud. You can't promote one product
with a sales letter from another product without changing it drastically.

I don't seem to be able to reach this customer and make him understand.

I honestly don't know what else to do.

Have you ever run into something like this? If so, how did you handle it?
Did you just say, "This is the way it is" and drop it?

I don't want to lose this person as a customer as he has been a very good
one for a long time and a very nice guy besides, but he seems intent on
using this sales letter, though it can do him no good without being able
to sell the product it promotes, and doesn't seem to want to sell the
product that he CAN sell that already comes with MRR rights. I mean, then
why did he buy it in the first place then?

I am lost for answers here.

Please help. I honestly don't know how to handle this anymore.

Thanks.
#finally #handle #run
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Hi, Steve,

    I'm not a customer of yours so I know it isn't me BUT, a while ago it could have been.

    One of the problems that my illness manifested was an absolute degree of irrationality - I could have been standing in the rain and wondering why people had umbrellas up! I had to keep a record of every thing I did (and it did not seem strange that I carried a large note book with me to record the fact the I opened the fridge and got some water and then closed the fridge, for example).

    I know there were many things that I did and conversations that I had which were stupid at the time but I was not able to stop myself (a bit like a drunk knowing he shouldn't apologise to the wall for bumping into it, but doing it any way) - maybe your customer is having a similar problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      Hi, Steve,

      I'm not a customer of yours so I know it isn't me BUT, a while ago it could have been.

      One of the problems that my illness manifested was an absolute degree of irrationality - I could have been standing in the rain and wondering why people had umbrellas up! I had to keep a record of every thing I did (and it did not seem strange that I carried a large note book with me to record the fact the I opened the fridge and got some water and then closed the fridge, for example).

      I know there were many things that I did and conversations that I had which were stupid at the time but I was not able to stop myself (a bit like a drunk knowing he shouldn't apologise to the wall for bumping into it, but doing it any way) - maybe your customer is having a similar problem.

      Art, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but he is an elderly
      gentleman in his 80s. My dad is 80 something and he's as sharp as a tack.

      But I guess everybody is different.

      Still, nothing in our past communications has given me any reason to
      believe that age is a factor here.

      But let's assume that is the case and he's not understanding.

      Then what do I do? It's almost like there's nothing I can do.
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      • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Art, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but he is an elderly
        gentleman in his 80s. My dad is 80 something and he's as sharp as a tack.

        But I guess everybody is different.

        Still, nothing in our past communications has given me any reason to
        believe that age is a factor here.

        But let's assume that is the case and he's not understanding.

        Then what do I do? It's almost like there's nothing I can do.
        Just let him use it. If he gets into trouble for fraud he'll just have to learn the hard way. Most likely though, nothing will happen. He won't make any money, and his attempt will fall into obscurity. Not the best of outcomes but no point in antagonizing him and no point in explaining it to him over and over if he just doesn't get it.
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      • Profile picture of the author artwebster
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Art, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but he is an elderly
        gentleman in his 80s. My dad is 80 something and he's as sharp as a tack.

        But I guess everybody is different.

        Still, nothing in our past communications has given me any reason to
        believe that age is a factor here.

        But let's assume that is the case and he's not understanding.

        Then what do I do? It's almost like there's nothing I can do.
        Exactly.

        At 80 years of age it is quite possible that he has been struck down (as I was) by something as simple as a small stroke, the effects of which could disappear as quickly as they arrived.

        Sorry I could not reply sooner.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Jill, I seriously doubt this gentleman can use Skype. In the time I've known
          him, I have gotten the impression (again, this is a long relationship) that he
          is seriously technically challenged as he seems to need the most simple
          things explained, which I have no problem doing. I have spent more time
          with this customer than with any other customer in my 6.5 years of
          doing this. I have gone above and beyond with every issue. And still, I
          can't seem to get him to the point where he has an actual site up and
          running and collecting payments.
          Steven,

          There's your answer. He is a lost cause and a Time Vampire.

          Often Time Vampires can be the nicest and most polite people but their inability to 'get it' gives you two options

          1. Persevere until you go crazy

          2. Bring the matter to a close

          It's your choice, but remember you have more responsibility to your family than a customer and if you go crazy your nearest and dearest will suffer.

          Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author TeamGlobal
    Hi Steve,

    First, I'd have to say that it's thoughful of him to ask rather than go behind your back and use the salesletter. It seems as he's been a long-term customer that you've built a good relationship with him.

    Explain to him how valuable the salesletter is to you and how important it is to your product and that allowing someone else to duplicate your salesletter can dilute the effectiveness of your offering.

    You could also offer to sell the rights to use your exclusive salesletter. Make the price high enough to illustrate to him just how valuable it is to you.

    All The Best,


    Tony
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  • Profile picture of the author Igor Kheifets
    I can only advise one thing.

    Let it go, do not take it personaly.

    Everything people do is because of them, not because
    of you. If his projection of his reality is like that, then
    there isn't much you can change, besides letting him handle this on
    his own.

    That what I would do If I were you...

    ~Igor
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed View Post

      I can only advise one thing.

      Let it go, do not take it personaly.

      Everything people do is because of them, not because
      of you. If his projection of his reality is like that, then
      there isn't much you can change, besides letting him handle this on
      his own.

      That what I would do If I were you...

      ~Igor
      The problem with that is if he DOES use the sales letter and promotes a
      product he has no rights to promote, I will then have to take action,
      something I don't want to have to do with this gentleman. We've known
      each other a long time and he's a very good customer. I've even offered
      to help him set up his sales pages for whatever he DOES want to promote.

      But for some reason he seems to be fixated on this one sales letter even
      though he has a product of mine that he can easily sell and has the rights
      to sell.

      I am just dumbfounded by the whole situation.
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      • Profile picture of the author waken
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The problem with that is if he DOES use the sales letter and promotes a product he has no rights to promote, I will then have to take action,
        A product that he has no right to promote? Is that yours Steve?

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I've even offered to help him set up his sales pages for whatever he DOES want to promote.
        I was thinking of this a moment ago and never thought he would refuse even this! :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author JamesX
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The problem with that is if he DOES use the sales letter and promotes a
        product he has no rights to promote, I will then have to take action,
        something I don't want to have to do with this gentleman. We've known
        each other a long time and he's a very good customer. I've even offered
        to help him set up his sales pages for whatever he DOES want to promote.

        But for some reason he seems to be fixated on this one sales letter even
        though he has a product of mine that he can easily sell and has the rights
        to sell.

        I am just dumbfounded by the whole situation.
        A habitual entrepreneur can reframe any situation to suit his needs.

        Let the man sell your product, it sounds like he is resigned to doing it anyway.
        With or without your permission.

        Under the order of affiliate sales this situation will provide a better outcome than acting bitterly. Make him reference you in his sales and provide back-links.

        It's not perfect for yourself but surely better than wasting your energy and finances pursuing this matter in a win/lose fashion (lawsuits, debating etc)
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  • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
    Oh man, I respect elderly but some elder people are just as stubborn. Anyway, I hope you won't get legal action to sue this old man who is in his 80s, even though he might be in the wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    Aloha Steven

    It is a tough situation, however as Tony pointed out your customer did ask as opposed to just using your sales letter. So it would seem that he is interested in doing the right thing.

    With that in mind you could point out to him that using your sales letter for one of his products is essentially plagiarism, and if he insists on using it you will sadly have no choice but to take legal action. However, as he is a loyal (and honest) customer you would be happy to offer your consulting services to either draft him a sales letter or proof read one that he has created himself.

    I suspect that a writer of your caliber would charge a pretty large sum to create a sales letter, so your price quote may be enough to scare him away from that idea. But it would also illustrate hat the letter he is considering copying has a lot of value and therefore he would be wise to cease and desist from copying it. It may also make him gain an appreciation for the sales material you provided with his MRR product.

    Best of luck with this

    Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Steve:

    My thinking on this is what this person may actually be looking for is to use it like a 'swipe file' professional copyrighters keep on hand.

    They don't use it word for word, they just take the general gist of it and tweak it to whatever they want to use it for.

    Let him use it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Steve:

      My thinking on this is what this person may actually be looking for is to use it like a 'swipe file' professional copyrighters keep on hand.

      They don't use it word for word, they just take the general gist of it and tweak it to whatever they want to use it for.

      Let him use it.
      The problem is, he thinks he can just use this letter word for word to
      promote anything at all. I tried to explain that it wouldn't make any sense.

      But maybe he's not explaining himself clearly and you're right, he just
      wants to use this as a swipe file.

      If that's the case (I guess I'll have to write back and ask) I have no
      problem with it. I of course wonder if he knows what a swipe file is.

      Problem is, his communication skills tend to be vague at times. I don't
      always understand what he's saying or asking and have to, many times,
      ask him to explain better.

      Oh well, I guess this is what they call "earning your money."



      ** EDIT **

      Okay, here is what I replied back. I hope this works.

      Okay, it's quite possible that I'm not understanding what you're asking me.

      __________________________________________________ _____________

      Are you asking if you can use some of the contents of this sales letter as a
      swipe file to modify to promote something else? If that's the case, yes, you
      can do that. Please understand though, whatever you promote (it can't be ***)
      you're going to have to make some major changes to this letter in order for
      the sales message to make any sense at all as this letter is VERY specific to ***.

      I still think you'd be better off promoting the MRR package that you purchased.
      It has everything already made for you. All you have to do is place your PayPal
      button on the sales page and upload everything to your server, which I have
      offered to do for you if you need my help to do it.

      Let me know.

      Sincerely,

      Steven Wagenheim
      __________________________________________________ _________________
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        I'd say get him on the phone. You'll be able to ask better questions based on the demeanor of his responses. And he may be more willing to open up and share the real motivation for his actions if he hears your voice and realizes he's talking to a real person. Make yourself tangible so to speak.

        EDIT: Guess John beat me to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author n7 Studios
    I'm not sure if this will help, but could you consider a different approach and suggest to him that writing his own sales letter would result in a better response in terms of sales (e.g. better rankings in Google with unique content etc)? Clearly you know your stuff, and he might be grateful to receive some advice like that, which may well put him on the right path (i.e. away from your path!)

    That still doesn't solve the issue of him trying to sell something he shouldn't be, but it might spur him on to look elsewhere for a product or create his own?

    Just a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    I desperately need the help
    Desperate?

    One the basis of the exchange of a couple of emails?

    I explained this to him in an email I sent last night.
    Today, I get an email back saying he just wants to use this other sales
    letter to promote something else.

    "What we have here is a failure to communicate"


    Come on Steven, you're trying to make a crisis out of
    a small drama.

    Pick up the phone, talk to the guy. You might actually
    get to the crux of the matter.


    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Desperate?

      One the basis of the exchange of a couple of emails?





      "What we have here is a failure to communicate"


      Come on Steven, you're trying to make a crisis out of
      a small drama.

      Pick up the phone, talk to the guy. You might actually
      get to the crux of the matter.


      John

      John, the guy's in Australia, I don't have his phone
      number and this hasn't just been a couple of emails.

      This has actually been going on, in one form or
      another for some time. As I said in my OP, I didn't
      want to get into the whole long story, but this
      person has been trying to get a sales page up on his
      server for months now. I have offered to do everything
      for him. He already has an MRR product that he can
      sell. All he has to do is put a PayPal button on it.

      But he seems fixated on wanting to use this OTHER
      sales letter to first promote the product that it was
      written for, that he has NO rights to promote, and
      now for just any old product, which makes no sense.

      I have offered several times to place the button on
      his sales page and upload it for him.

      What more can I do than that?
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      • Profile picture of the author gyar29
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        I have offered several times to place the button on
        his sales page and upload it for him.

        What more can I do than that?
        Steve,

        Nothing more is necessary. You can only do that which you can do.

        If you think that there is more you can do, then do it.

        Unfortunately, you may never be able to dissuade your customer from doing what he wants to do.

        He asked your permission to use the sales letter. Twice if I'm reading this thread correctly.

        This fact leads one to believe that he is aware that receiving your permission is, at a minimum, the ethical thing to do. So perhaps just telling him NO may end the issue. If not then protecting your business and property is your main responsibility.

        I don't envy you this dilemma. Hope it works out to the benefit of you and your customer.

        Good Luck,
        Gene
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        John, the guy's in Australia, I don't have his phone
        number and this hasn't just been a couple of emails.
        Do you have skype installed? You can use the free version where is is based on user names and not actual phone numbers - but you can call and talk live through the computer. All you need is to have your microphone set up.

        Ask him if he can get skype on his computer so you can talk live with him.

        I am happy to help you test quickly on your own computer if you want.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by avenuegirl View Post

          Do you have skype installed? You can use the free version where is is based on user names and not actual phone numbers - but you can call and talk live through the computer. All you need is to have your microphone set up.

          Ask him if he can get skype on his computer so you can talk live with him.

          I am happy to help you test quickly on your own computer if you want.
          Jill, I seriously doubt this gentleman can use Skype. In the time I've known
          him, I have gotten the impression (again, this is a long relationship) that he
          is seriously technically challenged as he seems to need the most simple
          things explained, which I have no problem doing. I have spent more time
          with this customer than with any other customer in my 6.5 years of
          doing this. I have gone above and beyond with every issue. And still, I
          can't seem to get him to the point where he has an actual site up and
          running and collecting payments.

          It has almost gotten to the point of being totally exacerbating, if that's
          the right word.

          As I said, I don't know what else to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        This has actually been going on, in one form or
        another for some time. As I said in my OP, I didn't
        want to get into the whole long story, but this
        person has been trying to get a sales page up on his
        server for months now
        .
        Well, quite frankly Steven, if he hasn't been
        able to do anything within months, it's highly
        unlikely that it'll happen at all!


        Unless, and untill, the guy actually infringes
        your copyright, there isn't a problem. As I
        said earlier, you seem to be making a crisis
        out of a minor drama.


        John
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Steve -

          The first letter was to the point - just resend it to him again any time he approaches the subject. And refuse to discuss it further with him.

          Sometimes you can't accommodate even a good customer - but just need to reiterate "NO" until he gives up.

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          Well, quite frankly Steven, if he hasn't been
          able to do anything within months, it's highly
          unlikely that it'll happen at all!


          Unless, and untill, the guy actually infringes
          your copyright, there isn't a problem. As I
          said earlier, you seem to be making a crisis
          out of a minor drama.


          John
          John, the crisis is not the sales letter. It's keeping a good
          customer happy under a difficult situation. I try very hard
          never to alienate my customers when they ask me for things
          where the answer is no. And usually, when I say no, that's
          the end of it and they understand.

          This is why I am so stumped.

          Does this person actually not understand no or are they
          just being stubborn? I don't want to get into the person's
          mental state (I've alluded to it by giving his age) but I
          fear that the problem is, he just doesn't get it.

          So the only thing I can think of doing at this point, if I
          really had to come up with something on my own, is to
          send him an email cutting ties with him and refunding him
          for every purchase he made from me.

          I don't want it to come to that, but I am running out of
          ideas...thus, why I came here in the first place.

          If you think what I just suggested (cutting ties and
          the refund) is the way to go, let me know and that's
          what I'll do if the situation hasn't been rectified after
          the last email I just sent.
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        • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          Well, quite frankly Steven, if he hasn't been
          able to do anything within months, it's highly
          unlikely that it'll happen at all!


          Unless, and untill, the guy actually infringes
          your copyright, there isn't a problem. As I
          said earlier, you seem to be making a crisis
          out of a minor drama.


          John
          Yeah, I do not really see the big deal here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Treby
        Steven I live in Aussie,from the UK some 40yrs ago-There is sometimes a better technique with Aussies you just go and break there legs-ONLY JOKING! Get him on Skype and chat -everything comes down to communication and putting your side over without anger and frustration-if all fails then you just say"be prepared for a knock on your door-the stone motel is not a good look at your age" Then explain what you can do for him-enough of my arm chair philosophy-good luck
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    John beat me to the punch -- get on the phone with this guy. In just a few minutes you can clear up what might take days to figure out via email. And if he is confused (in the sense that Art referred to above), you'll find that out as well by chatting with him.

    cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author TheAngelGuy
    Steve,

    The best phrase I've ever heard to summarize how to successfuly deal with people of any nature is, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

    And you seem to have said it really well in your intial post.

    If YOU were MY customer and I were having this situation with YOU, here's what I'd email to you, using some of your own words from the post.

    "Hi, Steve,

    Thanks a lot for your interest in my sales copy and the product. Did you know that it's really easy to create both a product of your own and good sales copy where you don't have to worry about copyright or legal issues or having your own visitors wonder why yours looks exactly like the one on my own page? Here's a few links to some quck and easy product creation and sales copy...

    (Give a link or two to "sales copy and products in five minutes" sales pages.)

    The reason I am telling you this is because both my product and sales letter do not come with any reprint or sales rights. Though I'm happy to give you guidance and direction on how to find the resources to create whatever you need on your own, this product comes with no rights to sell or resell. It does not have an affiliate program, does not come with any PLR or MRR rights and is for personal use only.

    Do you have any questions I can answer for you on where to find information that will help you quickly realize your own copywriting and product creation goals?"

    Or something like that.

    The format is basically something like this -

    "I'm glad you liked it.

    Here's guidance more applicable to your goals.

    The product that you bought from me is not trasferrable.

    By the way, did I mention some guidance more applicable to your goals?"

    Some of this might work for you in this situation. If not, just try to state your case in a friendly by firm way and then misdirect his attention immediately to another product or system or even mindset that would be most helpful.

    And if he does come back with questions, then you've gotten your goal - he's no longer interested in doing that, and it's up to you how much you want to give him in further direction. I wouldn't waste more than one email on it, but I would include like 5 links to some "profitable products" that he might find useful.

    Hope this gives you some ideas,

    - Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Jayllie
    Hi Steve

    New as I am to this so I am not really sure how everything works etc so excuse me if I am way off the mark. Why dont you offer to write him up a different sales letter for another product. I see you say that he wants to promote the product he has no rights to promote, have you tried to explain to him that as a businessman if he was to go ahead and do this then you would have no choice but to take legal action and that is something you do not want to have to do. Try explaining to him that as you have built up a relationship with him you are advising him of this to save himself from not only making this mistake with you but say he is doing this to someone else who is not as understanding as you, he could land himself in a lot of bother?
    xx
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Oh, and one other thing. I'm sorry if anybody doesn't understand my
      frustration level with this.

      Usually, when I tell somebody that they can't do something, that's the end
      of it.

      I don't get another email asking me to do the same thing that I just said
      no to.

      I realize that a lot of people ignore me, but I'd like to think that hearing "no"
      means no and actually registers.

      I mean we're not talking complicated English here.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Collins
    Hi Steven -

    Sounds frustrating to say the least. But with him being in the age group you say he is in, not accepting the previous help you offered, not accepted other reasonable suggestions and his fixation on this one page makes me wonder. You also mention he can't get a sales page up on his sever for months. How is he going to use any of it.

    As sad as it may be I feel this gentleman may be experiencing the early stages of one of the forms of dementia.
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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    Yeah, I must admit I was going to suggest something similar, i.e get his actual phone number so you can call him by phone and explain. If he still goes ahead, I'm afraid in Business you can't be too soft and will probably have to take it further, 80 or not.

    Here's another thought, show him another sales letter template which he could use instead, one which is free to use and in your opinion will be more suited to his niche or something?

    Phil
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Steven -

      I understand your frustration - but could be in trying to be pleasant and polite to this good customer you are not getting the message across. You posted above that you just emailed this

      Are you asking if you can use some of the contents of this sales letter as a
      swipe file to modify to promote something else? If that's the case, yes, you
      can do that. Please understand though, whatever you promote (it can't be ***)
      you're going to have to make some major changes to this letter in order for
      the sales message to make any sense at all as this letter is VERY specific to ***.

      I still think you'd be better off promoting the MRR package that you purchased.
      It has everything already made for you. All you have to do is place your PayPal
      button on the sales page and upload everything to your server, which I have
      offered to do for you if you need my help to do it.
      What is NOT included in this communication? A straight, unapologetic sentence that says

      "NO - you may NOT use my salesletter. It is specific to my business and is copyrighted material. That product is not available for resell and the letter may not be used by anyone other than myself."

      Offering partial solutions and helpful suggestions doesn't address the issue frustrating you. Why not just say "No, you may not under any circumstances use MY sales letter".

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Steven -

        I understand your frustration - but could be in trying to be pleasant and polite to this good customer you are not getting the message across. You posted above that you just emailed this



        What is NOT included in this communication? A straight, unapologetic sentence that says

        "NO - you may NOT use my salesletter. It is specific to my business and is copyrighted material. That product is not available for resell and the letter may not be used by anyone other than myself."

        Offering partial solutions and helpful suggestions doesn't address the issue frustrating you. Why not just say "No, you may not under any circumstances use MY sales letter".

        kay

        Kay, I did that in the very first email I sent.

        Here it is.

        -------------------------------------------------------
        That package is for personal use only and CAN'T be resold.

        No, you may not use this sales letter or sell the product
        that it promotes.

        Sincerely,

        Steven Wagenheim
        --------------------------------------------------------


        I can't make it any more clear than that and I thought that would
        be the end of it, but it wasn't.

        That is why I am so frustrated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    Steven

    How much time have you spent dealing with this guy?

    How much time have you spent composing this thread and your replies?

    Nobody needs to tell you what to do. You're a big boy now, you can make your own decisions. Deal with the matter, sort it out and move on. Stop deliberating, tying yourself up in knots and getting other folk involved. Do what you have to do and get on with something else.

    (I might just copy that last paragraph and paste it into future replies to you - would that be harsh Steven?)

    Despite how you might be feeling and the energy and emotion you've invested in this situation, it doesn't appear to be that big a deal Steven. Come on now, step up and be done with it.

    Peter
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

      Steven

      How much time have you spent dealing with this guy?

      How much time have you spent composing this thread and your replies?

      Nobody needs to tell you what to do. You're a big boy now, you can make your own decisions. Deal with the matter, sort it out and move on. Stop deliberating, tying yourself up in knots and getting other folk involved. Do what you have to do and get on with something else.

      (I might just copy that last paragraph and paste it into future replies to you - would that be harsh Steven?)

      Despite how you might be feeling and the energy and emotion you've invested in this situation, it doesn't appear to be that big a deal Steven. Come on now, step up and be done with it.

      Peter

      Peter, thank you SO much for your support.

      I hope when YOU need help with a problem that you find somebody who
      is more supportive than you've been to me.

      Sheesh.
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
        Steven

        I'm being more supportive than you realise and I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my tact.

        Teach a man to fish....

        Peter
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

          Steven

          I'm being more supportive than you realise and I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my tact.

          Teach a man to fish....

          Peter
          Peter, I know how to fish. When I tell somebody "no" I expect them to take
          "no" as the answer and not come back to me with the same question again
          just worded a little differently. This is the first time this has ever happened
          and quite honestly, I don't want to have to keep writing to the guy 10 more
          times saying "no."

          So I was coming to the forum to ask for some advice. Maybe somebody
          had dealt with something similar to this and had a really clever way to
          handle it.

          Sorry, if I'm just not up to straining my brain right now to try to think of
          something. I needed help and asked for help. If you have nothing of help
          to offer, fine, but don't give me a lecture.

          People wonder why I hardly come around anymore.

          And for the record, I liked AngelGuy's (Paul's) response. If the last email
          I sent doesn't solve this, I will try that approach.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Maybe the answer is to provide him with a replacement. Offer to write him his own sales letter, for a small fee of course. That way he can still use the sale letter of someone he obviously looks up to in the matter, you get paid, and still keep your letter. everybody wins.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Steven, first I want to share a thought with you--for what it's worth. I've checked out your blog you have in your sig file and clicked on links therein to some of your products you promote there. I consider your copy for these products to be superb. Even if people don't end up buying your products, WF friends would do well to read some of your copy and learn from how you do it.

    Your copy is tight and it's not all hype and bullsh*t (which is refreshing). I feel like you are telling a story rather than hyping your products. That may sound easy; It is not at all!

    I say this because rather than getting too upset with this guy (and I would too), I would also take it as a compliment that he too recognizes that you are an adept copyrighter and wants to leverage your sales letter for his own purposes. When you're good at something buddy, people recognize that fact and try to work it to their advantage. Again, I would take that as a compliment.

    As for the solution, I cannot offer one. But I am laughing as I write this because you are a terrific copyrighter and you are now faced with the unique challenge of using your skills to convince someone to NOT use your product rather than TO USE IT. That, my friend, may prove to be the real test of your abilities--I do not envy you for having to try to do that. Good luck! --Mike
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    Check it out here.

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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    We're behind you Steven, good luck with it.
    Signature



    It's still not working for you??? Need direction?...
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Callen
    Hey Steve, I would try emailing him a couple more times to see if he'll eventually agree to not use the sales letter in the way he is planning on. If, after a few more emails, he still doesn't understand, I would contact Bob Silber and have him draft a letter to the man and mail certified mail on your behalf. You can pm me if you want his contact info. Unfortunately, sometimes things have to be elevated to that level... even though we'd all rather it not.

    Good luck.

    Brad
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    Perhaps an email that says:

    I don't know how I can say this any more clearly.

    That package is for personal use only and CAN'T be resold.

    No, you may not use this sales letter or sell the product
    that it promotes.

    Sincerely,

    Steven Wagenheim
    Then keep re-sending it when he asks the same question.

    Whilst it is admirable that you want to help your customers there comes a point when you just can't do it for them.
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    I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out

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  • Profile picture of the author yves
    Hi,

    It sounds like this guy is starting to make his own rules and it could obviously end badly. If you have already said no and he won't take that then I think cutting ties might be appropriate at this juncture. Maybe he has been a good customer in the past but that seems to have changed now and you have been as fair as you possibly could. However, not to be harsh but if he really doesn't understand what you are saying I would doubt if he would be up to setting this up anyway. It's a shame because you say he is a decent guy and he is elderly but then where does it end?

    I have never been in this situation but the logical thing seems to be either let him carry on then face the consequences (but nothing may come of it anyway) or cut ties like you say, whichever will cause the least stress for all.

    Regards
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Steven you seem to think he is unable to use Skype because he is technically challenged and you make a point of his age, but you don't understand what his problem might be.

    You can't understand why he doesn't want to sell something with MRR, maybe he hasn't grasped what MRR really is.

    You send an email which asks if he want to use the letter as a swipe file, do you really think that someone who is 80 (you made a point about his age) and technically minded will actually understand what you are talking about.

    I would say part of the problem is a lack of comprehension. Not, necessarily the customer understanding, but the actual explanation of what you think covers the situation. Use any jargon with a newbie, regardless of age, and you will confuse them. Add age into that, and you will add to the confusion.

    I read this thread, and tried to understand it, assuming I knew nothing, and I was confused, and I'm not 80.

    Let me give you some examples. I was dealing with someone who had been told that a ftp was a major tool and they would use it all the time. Totally correct, but they didn't get told what they would use it for. They had assumed, that was a tool that would do everything, and wondered why it wouldn't compress files. Were they stupid, or was the assumption made that people would know what it did cause the confusion.

    I helped someone upload their website, and gave them instructions, but I left out 1 step. I had assumed they would know this. They emailed me to ask why the whole of their "My Documents" was now on their website. I had assumed they would have known to find the relevant files and uploaded just those. Wrong, I was to blame for making an assumption.

    In this case you are making an assumption that because the person bought a MRR he must want to sell it. What if he bought it because he wanted to learn? I have bought product which I didn't buy to sell, but to see what they were saying in them.

    What you have is a person who doesn't want to use the sales page for your MRR product but one from a product with personal rights. Have you asked him why he wants to promote that product? Have you asked him why he would like to sell it even though it comes with no right?

    You might be surprised that he thinks it is something that a lot of people would also want, and can't understand why you are being pig-headed and not letting it to be sold.

    So far a lot of assumptions have been made, and they are from what you think might be the problems. The answers given have again be given to the customer based on your assumptions rather than working with him.

    How many times does he have to say he doesn't want to sell the MRR. Could he be trying to be polite and say he doesn't like the MRR and wouldn't want to sell it, but he does like the personal right one?

    Send him an email, and try this time to communicate with him at the level he is at. Don't talk jargon, don't make assumptions about the MRR, forget the MRR, ask him exactly why he wants to use that sales page, what product does he want to promote, ask if you can help him to make the sales page to do the job even if it will cost your time and money. Ask if you can call him, and talk to see what the problem is.

    But most of all, stop making assumptions.
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    • Profile picture of the author yves
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      teven you seem to think he is unable to use Skype because he is technically challenged and you make a point of his age, but you don't understand what his problem might be.

      You can't understand why he doesn't want to sell something with MRR, maybe he hasn't grasped what MRR really is.

      You send an email which asks if he want to use the letter as a swipe file, do you really think that someone who is 80 (you made a point about his age) and technically minded will actually understand what you are talking about.

      I would say part of the problem is a lack of comprehension. Not, necessarily the customer understanding, but the actual explanation of what you think covers the situation. Use any jargon with a newbie, regardless of age, and you will confuse them. Add age into that, and you will add to the confusion.

      I read this thread, and tried to understand it, assuming I knew nothing, and I was confused, and I'm not 80.

      Let me give you some examples. I was dealing with someone who had been told that a ftp was a major tool and they would use it all the time. Totally correct, but they didn't get told what they would use it for. They had assumed, that was a tool that would do everything, and wondered why it wouldn't compress files. Were they stupid, or was the assumption made that people would know what it did cause the confusion.

      I helped someone upload their website, and gave them instructions, but I left out 1 step. I had assumed they would know this. They emailed me to ask why the whole of their "My Documents" was now on their website. I had assumed they would have known to find the relevant files and uploaded just those. Wrong, I was to blame for making an assumption.

      In this case you are making an assumption that because the person bought a MRR he must want to sell it. What if he bought it because he wanted to learn? I have bought product which I didn't buy to sell, but to see what they were saying in them.

      What you have is a person who doesn't want to use the sales page for your MRR product but one from a product with personal rights. Have you asked him why he wants to promote that product? Have you asked him why he would like to sell it even though it comes with no right?

      You might be surprised that he thinks it is something that a lot of people would also want, and can't understand why you are being pig-headed and not letting it to be sold.

      So far a lot of assumptions have been made, and they are from what you think might be the problems. The answers given have again be given to the customer based on your assumptions rather than working with him.

      How many times does he have to say he doesn't want to sell the MRR. Could he be trying to be polite and say he doesn't like the MRR and wouldn't want to sell it, but he does like the personal right one?

      Send him an email, and try this time to communicate with him at the level he is at. Don't talk jargon, don't make assumptions about the MRR, forget the MRR, ask him exactly why he wants to use that sales page, what product does he want to promote, ask if you can help him to make the sales page to do the job even if it will cost your time and money. Ask if you can call him, and talk to see what the problem is.

      But most of all, stop making assumptions.

      Thats a good point he may genuinely not understand what you mean. This is realy a tricky one.

      Hope it all gets sorted out for the best.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Steven you seem to think he is unable to use Skype because he is technically challenged and you make a point of his age, but you don't understand what his problem might be.

      You can't understand why he doesn't want to sell something with MRR, maybe he hasn't grasped what MRR really is.

      You send an email which asks if he want to use the letter as a swipe file, do you really think that someone who is 80 (you made a point about his age) and technically minded will actually understand what you are talking about.

      I would say part of the problem is a lack of comprehension. Not, necessarily the customer understanding, but the actual explanation of what you think covers the situation. Use any jargon with a newbie, regardless of age, and you will confuse them. Add age into that, and you will add to the confusion.

      I read this thread, and tried to understand it, assuming I knew nothing, and I was confused, and I'm not 80.

      Let me give you some examples. I was dealing with someone who had been told that a ftp was a major tool and they would use it all the time. Totally correct, but they didn't get told what they would use it for. They had assumed, that was a tool that would do everything, and wondered why it wouldn't compress files. Were they stupid, or was the assumption made that people would know what it did cause the confusion.

      I helped someone upload their website, and gave them instructions, but I left out 1 step. I had assumed they would know this. They emailed me to ask why the whole of their "My Documents" was now on their website. I had assumed they would have known to find the relevant files and uploaded just those. Wrong, I was to blame for making an assumption.

      In this case you are making an assumption that because the person bought a MRR he must want to sell it. What is he bought it because he wanted to learn? I have bought product which I didn't buy to sell, but to see what they were saying in them.

      What you have is a person who doesn't want to use the sales page for your MRR product but one from a product with personal rights. Have you asked him why he wants to promote that product? Have you asked him why he would like to sell it even though it comes with no right?

      You might be surprised that he thinks it is something that a lot of people would also want, and can't understand why you are being pig-headed and not letting it to be sold.

      So far a lot of assumptions have been made, and they are from what you think might be the problems. The answers given have again be given to the customer based on your assumptions rather than working with him.

      How many times does he have to say he doesn't want to sell the MRR. Could he be trying to be polite and say he doesn't like the MRR and wouldn't want to sell it, but he does like the personal right one?

      Send him an email, and try this time to communicate with him at the level he is at. Don't talk jargon, don't make assumptions about the MRR, forget the MRR, ask him exactly why he wants to use that sales page, what product does he want to promote, ask if you can help him to make the sales page to do the job even if it will cost your time and money. Ask if you can call him, and talk to see what the problem is.

      But most of all, stop making assumptions.

      You know, this actually makes a lot of sense. I have obviously been
      too close to this problem (last in a long string of similar problems) and
      need to go back to square 1 and ask him just what it is he wants to do
      and find some way to make that happen, even if I have to do it for him.

      I have no problem doing that. As I said, he is a good customer and a
      very nice guy, but I honestly don't think he understands a lot of what I
      am telling him. Finding the right "level of communication" is probably not
      going to be easy, but I am willing to go at this from ground zero again if
      I have to.

      Just out of curiosity, nobody has said so yet, but doesn't anybody else
      run into customers like these?
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        Just out of curiosity, nobody has said so yet, but doesn't anybody else
        run into customers like these?
        I don't think the customer is the problem.

        John
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        John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          I don't think the customer is the problem.

          John
          Wow...I don't even know how to respond to that.

          Thanks John. Knowing nothing of our relationship and how I have gone way
          out of my way for this person a number of times, that's just plain cold.

          No words.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Wow...I don't even know how to respond to that.

            Thanks John. Knowing nothing of our relationship and how I have gone way
            out of my way for this person a number of times, that's just plain cold.

            No words.
            "Think like a wise man but communicate in the language of the people" ~~William Butler Yeats
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

              "Think like a wise man but communicate in the language of the people" ~~William Butler Yeats
              I thought everybody understands the word "no".

              You know, I've been ripped to shreds here for a lot of things that I have
              said and done at this forum, deservedly so, but this thread has really left
              a bad taste in my mouth.

              To say I am very disappointed would be a major understatement.
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              • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I thought everybody understands the word "no".
                Not if you don't explain it in the correct context.

                John
                P.S. I see no evidence of you being "ripped to shreds". I do
                see a reluctance on your part to accept advice and attack
                people whose intentions are to try to help you.
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                John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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      • Profile picture of the author pavondunbar
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Just out of curiosity, nobody has said so yet, but doesn't anybody else
        run into customers like these?
        Hi Mr. Wagenheim...

        Sorry that you are going through this problem with your customer.

        Remember when I built a website offering a product and I asked you if I could use your products as a bonus because your products directly correlated with my main product and it had MRR rights and you said yes?

        I am still using it to this very day and people like the bonuses...

        But here's my point...

        If a customer doesn't value the relationship he has with you enough to respect your product and its terms, maybe it's time to cut ties...

        If you would have said "NO, Pavon, you can't use my products because the terms are "personal use" only, I would have happily obliged like I said before...

        Because I respect your products...

        And, you can't make everyone happy...no matter how hard you try...

        In my opinion, you're a good man on here Steven, very intelligent, and one of the few people I hold a great deal of respect, so I know you'll sort through this just fine...

        I have a customer like that now with a site I'm designing...she keeps asking me to change the layout after she tells me what she wants on the site and I'm doing her every command...

        I send her a "test layout"...she loves it...then she changes her mind a few days later...and the process starts all over again....

        I've had to "go back to the drawing board" 7 times with this customer...and she's wondering why it's taking sooo long for me to get her site done...

        I'm on the last string...I may just have to cut ties with her and issue a 50% refund...

        Sometimes you just have to do that...cut ties...

        It's just business because sooner or later the customer will think he is in control of your product or service...

        When, in reality, you are...

        Hope this helps you out and have a great week...

        Pavon
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    No, because when I have worked with the 2 examples I made an effort to communicate with them where they are.

    As a writer it should be easy to communicate with them, to remove the technical jargon because you understand it, stop assuming they do.

    Part of being a good writers it comprehension and communitcation. Being able to read and understand exactly what they are asking, and not assuming it must be something because they bought another product.

    Communication, where you can teach someone who has no background.

    And if I had someone who I had worked with for months, kept asking the same question (whatever that question is) I would be wondering what was wrong with me, that I don't understand what they want, and then being able to communicate the answer clearly. I would also have worked out a solution with them by now.

    I spoke to someone today. They had a problem, and were looking for solutions. They hadn't bought from me, and the solution wasn't something I sold. But, I said that I could work on it, and come up with something that would solve their problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      No, because when I have worked with the 2 examples I made an effort to communicate with them where they are.

      As a writer it should be easy to communicate with them, to remove the technical jargon because you understand it, stop assuming they do.

      Part of being a good writers it comprehension and communitcation. Being able to read and understand exactly what they are asking, and not assuming it must be something because they bought another product.

      Communication, where you can teach someone who has no background.

      And if I had someone who I had worked with for months, kept asking the same question (whatever that question is) I would be wondering what was wrong with me, that I don't understand what they want, and then being able to communicate the answer clearly. I would also have worked out a solution with them by now.

      I spoke to someone today. They had a problem, and were looking for solutions. They hadn't bought from me, and the solution wasn't something I sold. But, I said that I could work on it, and come up with something that would solve their problem.

      Bev, here is the email I just sent to him this second.

      Hi <name>:

      Let's start this whole thing from square one.

      We have known each other a very long time and I really DO want to help you. So this is what I need you to do.

      Tell me, in one paragraph, what it is you're essentially trying to do.

      Sell a product?
      Put up a sales page?
      Put up a blog?

      Be as specific as possible. I will then do whatever I can to make that happen even if I have to write out something custom for you to use.

      Okay, let's take it from here and then after I get your reply I will give you my suggestions. You can then choose the one that you feel is best for you.

      Sincerely,

      Steven Wagenheim

      I'm sorry if some of you feel that I have handled this customer poorly in
      my lack of communication skills or that shame on me, I should have known
      how to handle this better.

      But I promise that this is the last time I come here asking for help.
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      • Profile picture of the author Randy Bheites
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But I promise that this is the last time I come here asking for help.
        :rolleyes:
        Signature
        have a great day

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  • Profile picture of the author Randy Bheites
    It sounds as though this fellow can't get anything done anyway.

    Since you've already repeatedly told him in plain english "no", I would simply go into robot mode now and just repeat the same response each time he asks.

    If he can't even put up his own page, the chances of him actually being able to misuse your letter are slim. Let him hunt around for the "any" key all day long, stop stressing about it. If in some parallel universe you catch him actually using the letter, send him the standard C&D.

    How much money is this guy making you? You've probably already eaten up your profit just fussing over this minor customer service matter.
    Signature
    have a great day

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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Here is another problem which I haven't addressed.

    You say he can't put up a payment button, and you are concerned he might/maybe/could or whatever the term you used was use your sales page, and what would you do if that happens.

    Again this is an assumption that he will be able to do what you have said he is unable to do with another product. So, are you in panic mode before anything happens?

    I read the email you sent, why did you force him to reply in one paragraph? What if he has to write a whole report to explain what is going on in his mind?

    Steven, I'm going to say it and I know you will hate it, "Quit the drama queen"

    The problem is you didn't get the response you wanted. You didn't like it that the problem might be you and not the customer. Sorry, but if this went on for more then 2 days I would always assume it is my fault. That I was saying things the customer didn't understand. I would be trying to see how to communicate better.

    The bottom line whether we like it or not, our communication with our list or customers is our responsibility. Even if we outsource it, we should read to make sure it make sense for anyone coming in at the beginning.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Here is another problem which I haven't addressed.

      You say he can't put up a payment button, and you are concerned he might/maybe/could or whatever the term you used was use your sales page, and what would you do if that happens.

      Again this is an assumption that he will be able to do what you have said he is unable to do with another product. So, are you in panic mode before anything happens?

      I read the email you sent, why did you force him to reply in one paragraph? What is he has to write a whole report to explain what is going on in his mind?

      Steven, I'm going to say it and I know you will hate it, "Quit the drama queen"

      The problem is you didn't get the response you wanted. You didn't like it that the problem might be you and not the customer. Sorry, but if this went on for more then 2 days I would always assume it is my fault. That I was saying things the customer didn't understand. I would be trying to see how to communicate better.

      The bottom line whether we like it or not, our communication with our list or customers is our responsibility. Even if we outsource it, we should read to make sure it make sense for anyone coming in at the beginning.

      Bev, fine. I'll accept full blame for this problem.

      Doesn't fix the problem though, and if I knew how to do that, I wouldn't
      have come here to begin with.

      And the reason I requested one paragraph is because this person tends to
      ramble on forever about nothing and at the end of the email, I have no
      idea what he's talking about. So I have to write him back anyway asking
      him to please simplify.

      Like I said, we have a long history and obviously I am not adept at
      communicating at a level that he understands. I am doing the best that
      I can. I don't have this problem with any other customer, but okay I'll
      still take full blame.

      The only mistake I made was that I should have just tried to fix this on
      my own and not bring it up here. For that I also take full responsibility.

      Thank you all for your help. I have all the answers I need.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    And the reason I requested one paragraph is because this person tends to
    ramble on forever about nothing and at the end of the email, I have no
    idea what he's talking about. So I have to write him back anyway asking
    him to please simplify.
    Sometimes these issues can offer a type of
    mirror to help us to see what needs to change
    within ourselves.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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    • Profile picture of the author GrantFreeman
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Sometimes these issues can offer a type of
      mirror to help us to see what needs to change
      within ourselves.

      John
      One of the best solutions (of many) to this problem I've seen.

      Steven, you said no in the beginning, that should have been the end of it. I think what's come of this, is somewhere down the line, as you communicated more, HE thought you changed a "no" to a "maybe".

      People here have your best interest weather you realize it or not. It's pretty hard to see positive things in a cloud of frustration.

      I wish I had an answer, but I just can't help you.

      Grant
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    I thought I gave a solution.

    Find out why he wants to use the sales page

    Find out why he wants to promote one product and not the other.

    Find out what he wants, what is in it for him

    He rambles, but so do many people, it is our place to cut through the rubbish and find exactly what they want.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Bev's right.

      Or you could just fire him. You said you don't want to lose him as a customer, but really, who cares. The way it sounds, one customer should hardly affect your bottom line. If you have a headache, take an aspirin.
      Signature
      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
      ~ Zig Ziglar
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    • Profile picture of the author Zacman
      I have to agree with John and a few others.

      Mountain/Molehill comes to mind.

      Has anyone else used the tactic of a controversial/unique forum thread just to get attention and sig clicks?

      I remember once at a ning forum I was leaving I made a goodbye to all my friends post with links to my op that was keeping me too busy to continue at that forum and the detractors came unglued!

      They made my thread the most popular thread ever at the particular forum. LOL

      I must have signed up a dozen people to my program from that one thread alone, and the beauty of it was it was my detractors who kept the post alive and gave me a chance to respond to them attracting the opposing views to check me out further.

      It really was a thing of beauty, just came to mind reading this thread.


      Cheers,
      Zac
      P.S. No offense Steven, just what came to mind. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Steven are you saying as a parent, you never had your daughter doing something you had said no to, or keep on asking for when you had said no?

    We do it all the times as humans, if we hear no, and we want it, we keep on and on hoping to wear down the person.

    The answer is no, now what's the question
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Steven are you saying as a parent, you never had your daughter doing something you had said no to, or keep on asking for when you had said no?

      We do it all the times as humans, if we hear no, and we want it, we keep on and on hoping to wear down the person.

      The answer is no, now what's the question
      My daughter has always understood the word no from the time she was old
      enough to understand. It's how she was raised.

      Having said that, I understand that some people will NOT take no for an
      answer. I'm just not sure this is the case. I honestly believe this person
      doesn't understand a lot, if any of this stuff. If he had, he wouldn't have
      purchased a boat load of products over 2 years and done nothing with
      any of them.

      I have offered to do everything, including uploading what he needs to his
      server.

      I can't even get an answer on my offers. He just goes into another subject
      and brings up something else altogether. If you could see our history of
      correspondence, I am almost positive that you'll believe that he doesn't
      remember anything from one email to the other. At this age, this is more
      than possible, which is why I fear that there is no way to come to a
      reasonable solution with this problem. I don't want to cut ties with him
      though because we have, in a sense, become more than just business. I
      really want to help him. I just don't know how anymore.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        If you could see our history of
        correspondence, I am almost positive that you'll believe that he doesn't
        remember anything from one email to the other.
        I find that difficult to believe.

        And another thing, I find that difficult to believe.


        Harvey


        .
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  • We have people copying our salesletters illegally all the time -- since high-performing salescopy is something our company is known for, people figure they can cut and paste the message and get the same results.

    Unfortunately, they don't see the same results we do because they can't offer what we offer -- our products, our service, our support, and our team. Sure, you can promote our products as an affiliate (and we love that!), but at the end of the day, our affiliates are sending people to us, not trying to compete with us.

    It's like putting up a personals ad with someone else's photo. Sure, you might get some great responses, but when the time comes to make the date, they're going to figure out pretty quickly that they don't have the right person.

    It sounds like it's time to write a cease and desist, and let him know that you don't want to wrangle with the issue further -- it's just a plain no, with no further explanation or support. A customer who ignores your wishes, acts illegally and presents consistent issues isn't worth the time you spend after a few emails or a call.

    If he goes ahead and does it anyway, legal action probably won't be worth your time and effort, however -- his copy won't perform like yours because once people click through, they're going to realize that they've been misled.

    Then he'll not only have the wrong message, but he'll also have a host of customer service issues.

    Let him make the mistake if he's determined to make it. It won't undermine your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author yves
    This forum is really one of a kind.

    All types of emotions come into play. Each thread is a little drama all by itself and you learn a lot more than internet marketing thats for sure. I had my own little debacle this morning.

    Sorry to go off the subject but just thought I'd put that in for good measure.

    But really Steven , I hope you get your situation worked out and will ask more questions in the future .
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  • Profile picture of the author stevecl
    Steve,

    you earn over 6 figures marketing online, i'm sure this customer will not put a huge dent in your earnings if he stops buying from you. Tell Him its a No and thats your final answer. If he doesn't like it too bad.

    Don't waste anymore time on this - you have a business to run.



    Steve
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    I started with nothing and still have most of it left!

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  • Profile picture of the author Guitarnut
    Steven,

    My father is in this age group and I deal daily with this type of thing. He has a touch of dementia that seems to come and go. I also worked for 10 years with adults with developmental disabilities so I completely understand the frustration of not being able to communicate. Here's what I learned.

    You must first assess the situation inside and out, taking unknown factors into account. Decide what your best solution to the problem is for the both of you, implement it and move on without looking back. You can drive yourself crazy second guessing and looking backwards trying to figure out what happened.

    It does sound to me like the mental status of your customer is questionable and you simply can't deal with that in a logical manner. it's like wanting to white wash the fence with black paint. it just won't work.

    Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Here's how I would fix the problem:

    Give him the rights to sell it...

    In the bigger picture Steve, and I'm talking to you about this issue, not about the rest of the drama in this thread... is it really that big of a deal?.

    Why not just give him the rights?...

    He didn't go out and use it, he came to you personally (albeit via e-mail) and made a request, as a man... seems fair to me.

    I'd do it..

    Peace

    Jay

    p.s. Have you read any Anthony Robbins' material, Steve?... you might find it useful on your personal journey.. just a thought. I recommend Awaken The Giant Within
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    Bare Murkage.........

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      Here's how I would fix the problem:

      Give him the rights to sell it...

      In the bigger picture Steve, and I'm talking to you about this issue, not about the rest of the drama in this thread... is it really that big of a deal?.

      Why not just give him the rights?...

      I'd do it..

      Peace

      Jay

      p.s. Have you read any Anthony Robbins' material, Steve?... you might find it useful on your personal journey.. just a thought. I recommend Awaken The Giant Within

      Jay, in this particular case I can't give him the rights to sell it because
      it would violate certain provisions of scarcity that I built into the product.
      Only so many are being sold and once they are sold, that's it. So if I give
      him rights to sell it, I am screwing my other customers.

      It's not about any money I would lose. I could care less, which is why I
      offer so many PLR and MRR products for people. It's about not screwing
      those who have already purchased this and are expecting it to be taken
      off the market once X number of units are sold.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Jay, in this particular case I can't give him the rights to sell it because
        it would violate certain provisions of scarcity that I built into the product.
        Only so many are being sold and once they are sold, that's it. So if I give
        him rights to sell it, I am screwing my other customers.

        It's not about any money I would lose. I could care less, which is why I
        offer so many PLR and MRR products for people. It's about not screwing
        those who have already purchased this and are expecting it to be taken
        off the market once X number of units are sold.
        Have you sold all the products or is it still for sale? Set it up on RAP or $7 script and limit the number being sold.

        He is giving you free money, in that he might make you sales that you wouldn't make yourself.

        Say you are selling 100 of the product, and you have sold 60, and you allow him to be an affiliate for you, and he sells 5 copies. He's happy, you're happy, your customers are happy, and you still haven't broken anything promise, unless you said that nobody but you would ever sell this product.

        Is that so difficult to do?

        You might be surprised, that the gentleman doesn't have a problem with his memory, but he is being stubborn knowing that he has a market he could sell those copies to.

        What you might have here is 2 stubborn people who refuse to budge, but the 80 year old has far more experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author mountainurse
    OK, really, even if he does use your salesletter, even YOUR NAME...how many sales do you think this 80yr old man is going to make? I have run Adword compaigns, blogs etc...trying to do the "right thing" in promoting affilliate offers, OTO's etc. I'm a newbie who researches the poop outa everything to get the "all elusive TRAFFIC"! I've made a whopping 3 (three) sales!!! Whoa! that paid for 2 months of aweber,adwords,hosting.....now, there's something to get all twitterpated about! So really Steve, how many sales do you think this guy is going to make among the GAZILLIONS of offers out there on the Web? maybe consider it flattering; I dunno
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  • Profile picture of the author greenovni
    Steve

    Sometimes it is better to cut off a customer (even a long term one) if that customer becomes a drain to the business.

    While harsh and even "unethical" to some, your main concern is your business.

    Also, if you are so sure that your customer will not be able to upload anything to a server, why not send him a "revised" copy of the sales letter and tell him that it is the "NEW, UPDATED & SHINY" version of the same sales letter.

    Like sales letter 2.0 made specially for him.

    I have dealt with a lot of elderly people here in Florida and sometimes the best course of action if to "agree" with everything they say even if I already knew that the job would be done completely different.

    In other words, a "white lie" to calm my elderly customer down since they are set on their ways while delivering top notch service.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat


      Hi Bev,

      You're going to hate me for this, but this is class -

      Part of being a good writers it comprehension and communitcation
      I guess the others weren't brave enough to take the P, but they must have thought about it

      Yes, I'm being a wambot.



      Hi Steven,

      Even though I'm taking the P out of Bev, I'm feeling kind towards you and your situation today, therefore my advice is - don't ever let others make you feel bad about the fact that you care too much about the little things - but try not to give them the opportunity too often, if you can.

      But also, when something gets a bit too much remember that laughter is the best medicine - and be sure to have a chuckle at your own human-ness and how odd we all are. We really are quite amusing, when you think about it.

      Bottoms up to human-ness, and all of it's oddities. Cheers...

      PS You are not alone in not being able to handle the average 80 year old. They're a proper handful....

      PPS
      I thought everybody understands the word "no".
      We do, but everyone should also know that 'no' really means 'yes'...
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Steven,

        The fastest way to frustrate yourself to death is to try and do the impossible based on good intentions.

        If this gentleman really is suffering from some form of dementia, whether mild or otherwise, nothing you do will matter. Even if your email gets to him in a lucid moment, the fixation will likely return when he's not himself.

        It doesn't matter if anyone else has had similar situations, because it's you who has to make the decision and act on this one.

        If it's something else, the clarification approach may help. If it's some form of senility, you may not have any viable options but to just keep politely saying, "No."

        Until you've had to deal with a relative or friend who's suffered from such conditions, the extent to which they change the person can be difficult to believe. Arguing with people, or getting artificially insulted, because they're pointing out uncomfortable truths is not a productive way to find a solution. Nor is the extraneous drama.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Steven -

          Paul made some good points. Also true is that with mild dementia, a person may not accept his faculties are failing. I also have that old fashioned streak that tells me someone of that age deserves respectful treatment even when they're a bit of a bother.

          My suggestion earlier was

          The first letter was to the point - just resend it to him again any time he approaches the subject. And refuse to discuss it further with him.
          ...simply because at age 80 this gentleman may not remember he asked before.

          You might find that even if you agreed for him to use the letter - he might still keep asking. I have to admire someone of that age making the effort to try to work online. For that reason, I would send a polite no as many times as I had to - actually, I'd probably say "yes" because I doubt the letter would ever be used.

          A little kindness never hurts - and always comes back to you.

          kay
          Signature
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          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author DonDavis
    I'm just amazed that you "finally" ran into something that you couldn't handle.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    lol

    You already told him NO.

    So, if he does put it up, contact his hosting company and have it taken down.

    I wouldn't waste all this time going back and forth with him. I can understand trying to keep the relationship with a customer. But, at this point, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot you can do to get your point across.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Just say no.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

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  • Profile picture of the author nvs74191
    Steve

    I have an idea!

    Explain to the customer that usage of the sales letter unless he has bought it is a fraud.

    Offer the sell the sales letter for $5000 to him, explaining that the charge is for your copywriting skills.

    Legally, you have made an offer, and if he has not taken you up on your offer, he is deemed to have rejected your offer. So it naturally follows that he does not have the right to use the sales letter.

    If he does take you up on your offer, congratulations, you are $5000 richer.
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    Swaminathan

    I am a Jack Duncan Fan!

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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Here are a couple of things that have been going around in my tiny brain.

    There are a number of contradictions here and that is only adding to the confusion, or maybe it is only me.

    You said to Art
    Still, nothing in our past communications has given me any reason to believe that age is a factor here.
    To Floyd
    Problem is, his communication skills tend to be vague at times. I don't always understand what he's saying or asking and have to, many times,
    ask him to explain better.
    There are other things which were said about his age and mental health or what might be a mental health problem.

    If age and his mental health is a problem then nothing you will say with make any difference. What I don't understand is how this came into the equation and your thinking when you first said it wasn't a problem.

    Skype even if he can't use it you can call his landline in Australia for cents using your Skype.

    You said
    The problem with that is if he DOES use the sales letter and promotes a product he has no rights to promote, I will then have to take action,
    Again it is an assumption and highly unlikely that he will do anything. Why not just wait and see what happens.

    You have said time and time again you have tried to help him, and nobody is disputing that. You said he hasn't done anything yet, why do you think he is going to do something now.

    You have said he is technically challenged, why will he suddenly have all the pieces of the jigsaw to complete the work?

    Why are you concerned to keep him as a customer?

    Yes, you have a history, but let's look at the facts here.

    He is a good customer - which I take to mean he buys a number of products so he spends money.

    He is time consuming - he is unable to put into practice anything he has bought and unable to sell anything because he doesn't understand how to put a paypal button on a sales page.

    Keeping him as a customer does 1 thing, sell to him products you know he will never use or sell because he hasn't mastered the basics yet. So, you want to keep selling to someone you know can't benefit from the products, because they haven't understood or done anything with the previous purchases.

    Now you think how that looks
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  • Profile picture of the author Pete Lauder
    All the time you have wasted discussing this issue on the forum would have been better spent writing a sales letter, along with an affiliate link to one of your products, and who knows?

    You may even have made some money out of it.

    Pete Lauder
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  • Profile picture of the author nichepros
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Update

      I was just going to let this die but I finally heard back from the customer
      after the last email I sent. I am not going to reprint the whole email he sent
      me but I am going to reprint parts of it that I feel are important. If you don't
      feel like reading this, the bottom line is, the issue has been resolved.

      Here are some key parts from the email.

      Thanks for the clarification...it has at last sunk in.
      I have deleted the letter from the computer.
      I admit I overstepped the line when I discussed alterations to your ***

      but that really wasn't intended. I was only interested in a Webpage.
      Having now read ***, if I had read it first, this embarrassing exchange
      of messages would not have happened.
      For months now you've belted me around the ears,which
      I have richly deserved, and at long last I have seen the light
      You mentioned fraud. In all my business life I have never committed
      a fraud or misrepresented anything. I have held many licences for
      for Finance and Real Estate and for over forty years have been. and
      still am, a Justice of the Peace. I am still active apart from occasional
      lapse of memory.
      As you are no doubt aware 2008 was quite a nightmare for me.
      Apart from hospitalisations and equipment problems.finance was
      also a problem
      He also went on to say that he will take my suggestions and promote the
      MRR product he purchased. I am going to help him set everything up. I
      know it's going to be a lot of work and time on my part but I don't care.
      I truly want to help this man. I think you can see why from he bits and
      pieces I have reprinted here.

      For those who think this is about future income from him, it is not.

      What I failed to mention, because I didn't think it was important, is that I
      have removed him from my mailing lists so that he won't receive anymore
      offers from me. I have also told him point blank not to buy anything
      else from me and to use what he has. He has more than enough to build
      a successful business. Thus the reason for this line from his email.

      For months now you've belted me around the ears,which
      I have richly deserved, and at long last I have seen the light
      I don't think this is a lost cause. I think I can get him going and actually
      help him.

      As for this thread, it got me to write that last email and thus, in a strange
      way, has actually helped me solve my problem, so thank you to all who
      have contributed to it and helped me sort this out.

      Had I truly believed I could have done this myself, I would have never
      started this thread, but as you can see, this has been going on for a long
      time and I was at my wits end. I just didn't know what to do anymore.

      He has admitted to memory lapses and that explains a lot.

      This isn't going to be easy, but I'm determined to turn this person into
      a home business success.

      Call me crazy, whatever.

      Sometimes it's not about the money.
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  • Profile picture of the author tschlotter
    Steve,

    I think it's wonderful that you took the time to work out the problem with the elderly customer. My Dad is 77 and, like yours, is sharp as a tack thank goodness. Some of my parents friends and customers of ours at the local newspaper haven't been quite so lucky though and you have to be patient with them. That old adage 'respect your elders' is really something to live by I think (my teenagers don't act like they agree however!).

    Have a good one,

    Tina

    p.s. Hope he doesn't read this thread though - he might be a little insulted!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    Steve,

    "To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." -Elbert Hubbard

    Add to that list, "do not post on forums."



    -K
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Steven,

    I have walked away for very LARGE restoration projects that I knew would make me thousands of dollars when I completed the job.

    Why did I have to walk away and loose a customer? Because the person wanted to do business with me on their terms and not my terms. I control the situation, the client does not, that's how I do business.

    Sometimes it is better for your business to loose a client then to have the headaches of dealing with situations and problems a client can bring into your business.

    If you can not give him rights for the reasons you stated, and you are unwilling to work with him by modifying the sales letter (assumption on my part) then perhaps you need to let him go as a client by informing him that if he infringes on your rights you will have to protect your interest's in order to maintain the promises you've made to those who paid for the rights to use the sales letter.


    PS: I R noob cuase I scrolled to fast and did not see you had made a resolution. LOL Anyways perhaps my reply will help others and possibly you in the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author greenovni
    Happy that the customer finally 'saw the light'. I too think that respecting our elders is the way to go.

    I really hope that you can turn him into a success, that will make for the best testimonial ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author DonDavis
    Get out the guitar man, this calls for another You Tube video!

    May I request Magic Man by Heart because YOU sir, ARE the original magic man.

    I knew you could put this one to bed.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Thanks for the clarification...it has at last sunk in.
    I have deleted the letter from the computer.

    I admit I overstepped the line when I discussed alterations to your ***
    but that really wasn't intended. I was only interested in a Webpage.

    Having now read ***, if I had read it first, this embarrassing exchange
    of messages would not have happened.

    For months now you've belted me around the ears,which
    I have richly deserved, and at long last I have seen the light

    You mentioned fraud. In all my business life I have never committed
    a fraud or misrepresented anything. I have held many licences for
    for Finance and Real Estate and for over forty years have been. and
    still am, a Justice of the Peace. I am still active apart from occasional
    lapse of memory.
    As you are no doubt aware 2008 was quite a nightmare for me.
    Apart from hospitalisations and equipment problems.finance was
    also a problem

    This is something that has been bothering me...

    Does he know you've aired this out on the Warrior Forum?

    And, did you ask permission to use so many excerpts from his assumed-to-be-PRIVATE e-mails he sent you?

    If it were me as the customer, and I got wind of this, and then saw how many judgments were being made about me, the fact that it had to be brought to public attention, and the use of something I considered confidential - you can bet I would be absolutely livid.

    Something just doesn't seem right about the way the whole thing was handled. Don't get me wrong, Steven, I know you were looking to solve a problem and help a customer, but read back over the whole thread objectively and see if you know where I'm coming from.

    In short, what he wrote to you isn't any of our business. It may support your point, but there are ways we, as good writers, can get the same point across in other ways.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      This is something that has been bothering me...

      Does he know you've aired this out on the Warrior Forum?

      And, did you ask permission to use so many excerpts from his assumed-to-be-PRIVATE e-mails he sent you?

      If it were me as the customer, and I got wind of this, and then saw how many judgments were being made about me, the fact that it had to be brought to public attention, and the use of something I considered confidential - you can bet I would be absolutely livid.

      Something just doesn't seem right about the way the whole thing was handled. Don't get me wrong, Steven, I know you were looking to solve a problem and help a customer, but read back over the whole thread objectively and see if you know where I'm coming from.

      In short, what he wrote to you isn't any of our business. It may support your point, but there are ways we, as good writers, can get the same point across in other ways.

      All the best,
      Michael

      Michael, I actually do see your point, but I have mentioned no names
      and nobody here would ever in a million years know who this person is.

      If he finds out about this thread and becomes upset with me because I
      tried to find any way I could to help him, then I will take my lumps.

      But since I have not violated Warrior Forum rule # 1 (no names were
      mentioned) I see nowhere where I have done anything wrong.

      If you want to feel differently, fine. I honestly don't care.

      The customer is finally getting the message, getting the help he needs
      and may actually start making some money.

      That to me, is the only thing that matters, again, since no names were
      mentioned.

      If you want to make a federal case out of this thread, by all means, enjoy
      yourself.

      I have more important things to do. I just finished making a video for him
      to show him how to create a PayPal button for his sales page and am
      ready to do whatever I have to do to get him up and running.

      The rest...it's just not important.
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      This is something that has been bothering me...

      Does he know you've aired this out on the Warrior Forum?

      And, did you ask permission to use so many excerpts from his assumed-to-be-PRIVATE e-mails he sent you?

      If it were me as the customer, and I got wind of this, and then saw how many judgments were being made about me, the fact that it had to be brought to public attention, and the use of something I considered confidential - you can bet I would be absolutely livid.

      Something just doesn't seem right about the way the whole thing was handled. Don't get me wrong, Steven, I know you were looking to solve a problem and help a customer, but read back over the whole thread objectively and see if you know where I'm coming from.

      In short, what he wrote to you isn't any of our business. It may support your point, but there are ways we, as good writers, can get the same point across in other ways.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Mike:

      Names were never mentioned....so it should never be a problem.

      For all you know, he may have multiple customers asking this....would explain his hair loss over this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Geez!

    I'm not making a federal case out of anything. It was just something that rubbed me the wrong way.

    I'm glad he's getting help.

    Also, I hope I wasn't implying anything about Rule #1; I wasn't.

    My point isn't based on whether anyone here knows who it is, or not. It addresses a bigger point, too. Yours is not the first post to quote someone's messages. At what point does it cross the line? Does it betray something confidential?

    I was just pointing out something that was rubbing me the wrong way, and I think you know I have nothing against you. Just sharing some thoughts I had.

    Sorry if you thought I was over-reacting.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steven,

      Knock it off.

      Rule #1 clearly doesn't apply here, and you know that as well as anyone. Bringing that into it is just a sloppy way to poromote the "I'm a victim" stance again. And no-one is close to making a "federal case" out of this thread.

      I wasn't going to mention this, but your response to Michael seems to make it fair game:

      If the primary reason for this thread was to get help in finding a way to graciously handle this gentleman's confusion, why does it (as it so often does with these threads) end with you going into detail about how far above and beyond the call you're going to go to help him?

      "Call me crazy, whatever. Sometimes it's not about the money."

      Some of the comments that were leveled at you in this thread were inappropriate and rude, to say the least. But that doesn't seem to have been the cause of this response. It's the same old pattern: If you're questioned, you become hostile and accusatory, and adopt the stance of the martyr. The helpful innocent, who is victimized for their efforts on behalf of others.

      That crap got old a long time ago, Steven.

      Side note to JT: If you're going to criticize, be specific. That generic stuff just makes you look like you're being a jerk.

      There. Now that I've pissed off both sides, I'm going to get back to something productive.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Steven,

        Knock it off.

        Rule #1 clearly doesn't apply here, and you know that as well as anyone. Bringing that into it is just a sloppy way to poromote the "I'm a victim" stance again. And no-one is close to making a "federal case" out of this thread.

        I wasn't going to mention this, but your response to Michael seems to make it fair game:

        If the primary reason for this thread was to get help in finding a way to graciously handle this gentleman's confusion, why does it (as it so often does with these threads) end with you going into detail about how far above and beyond the call you're going to go to help him?

        "Call me crazy, whatever. Sometimes it's not about the money."

        Some of the comments that were leveled at you in this thread were inappropriate and rude, to say the least. But that doesn't seem to have been the cause of this response. It's the same old pattern: If you're questioned, you become hostile and accusatory, and adopt the stance of the martyr. The helpful innocent, who is victimized for their efforts on behalf of others.

        That crap got old a long time ago, Steven.

        Side note to JT: If you're going to criticize, be specific. That generic stuff just makes you look like you're being a jerk.

        There. Now that I've pissed off both sides, I'm going to get back to something productive.


        Paul

        My response was a culmination of those very comments you mentioned as
        being rude. Unfortunately, Micheal was the one I blew up at. If you read
        my one post, I specifically said that this whole thread left a very bad
        taste in my mouth and it would be the last time I come here looking for
        help. I am very disappointed at the reaction to this thread. If that makes
        me a drama queen, fine. But Michael didn't deserve my outburst. He
        actually has a good point and one I didn't think of. As a result, I wrote
        to the customer and told him that I came here looking for help in regard
        to the issues I've been having with him and asked him for his forgiveness.

        I realize that I tend to make a mess of things. But in this case, all I was
        trying to do was find a way to reach a customer, make him understand
        certain things, and at the same time, help him actually make some money.

        If you understood our relationship, you'd understand why this is so
        important to me, otherwise I would have just written him a "do not do
        this email" and that would have been the end of it.

        Michael, sorry I took out my frustrations on you.

        Problem is resolved and I don't think there is anything more to be
        discussed as far as this issue goes.

        At least I don't have anything else to add.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Steven,
          I specifically said that this whole thread left a very bad taste in my mouth and it would be the last time I come here looking for help.
          And that is... how many times you've said this?

          Yes, you are a drama queen. No, your response hasn't much at all to do with the main point of my post, which is your tendency to use these threads to show off your saintly nature and customer-centric focus.

          I didn't question your desire to help this guy out. I questioned why you felt the need to turn a legitimate interest in serving a valued customer into a long string of subtle (and not-so-subtle) self-promotion.

          The advertising forums are thataway ------>


          Paul

          PS: You get to decide when you start a discussion. You don't get to dictate when it ends.
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          • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Steven,And that is... how many times you've said this?

            Yes, you are a drama queen. No, your response hasn't much at all to do with the main point of my post, which is your tendency to use these threads to show off your saintly nature and customer-centric focus.

            I didn't question your desire to help this guy out. I questioned why you felt the need to turn a legitimate interest in serving a valued customer into a long string of subtle (and not-so-subtle) self-promotion.

            The advertising forums are thataway ------>


            Paul

            PS: You get to decide when you start a discussion. You don't get to dictate when it ends.

            It is funny, I have not been here in a while and was wondering what Steven was up to. I then found this thread and felt as if I had been in a time machine going back several months ago. It seems somethings never change ... drama gets old quick.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerryTelford
    Hi Steven

    Since he is a lifetime customer, I would offer to sell him the rights to use your sales letter for one specific product and see if you can get him on the phone to discuss it. I find that talking directly to people gets things cleared up a lot faster than email. Sometimes they're thinking of something that may benefit both of you.

    Enjoy your day!
    Terry
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Steven,

    Apology accepted.

    I think anyone who has been here for a while has had posts go south in unexpected ways.

    It's happened to me. I once made the mistake of offering to get AWeber through a Warrior's affiliate link in exchange for help if I needed it. I thought it was fair, but somehow I came across as needing to much help and being too demanding.

    No big deal.

    Did it irritate me? Of course. I basically stormed off in a huff saying I would never make a similar offer. But if the opportunity comes up, I will gladly make such an offer.

    Like I said, it happens to all of us, and if you need help again, there will be Warriors to help. In fact, there was plenty of help offered in this thread, even though it went a bit south.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


      In fact, there was plenty of help offered in this thread, even though it went a bit south.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Yes, there were some excellent suggestions made in this thread and
      ultimately they brought this months old problem to a head.

      Anyway, thank you for accepting my apology.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
    Damn, Steve's practically a living bullet magnet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    lol

    While I feel that Steven might have made more out of this issue than he should of...

    It cracks me up to no end the number of people that take these opportunities to shit on him. It's obvious that Steven isn't some peoples "favorite person" which is fine. Why not just stay out of the thread and not post anything?

    He asked for a solution to a problem and instead of getting that, he got a bunch of " Why are you taking this so seriously" "Steve your an idiot" type of responses.

    Geeze, relax people.

    Jeremy
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      lol

      While I feel that Steven might have made more out of this issue than he should of...

      It cracks me up to no end the number of people that take these opportunities to shit on him. It's obvious that Steven isn't some peoples "favorite person" which is fine. Why not just stay out of the thread and not post anything?

      He asked for a solution to a problem and instead of getting that, he got a bunch of " Why are you taking this so seriously" "Steve your an idiot" type of responses.

      Geeze, relax people.

      Jeremy

      That is why I don't post here anymore. Everyone is so mean here. Especially that Paul guy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alton Hargrave
        To quote a recent Red Lobster (?) commercial..."The bird says no." LOL

        Sometimes, you just have to say "No". If you don't, you are destined a miserable life. Because, there are some people who don't mind asking for inappropriate things. When I am in a good mood, I say "No, and here is why..."

        But, if I feel that they ought to already know why, I say "No. You reckon its gonna rain today?"
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Thomas,
        Everyone is so mean here. Especially that Paul guy.
        Kind of you to notice. I went out to play pool tonight, and thought of you every time I broke a rack...


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Thomas,Kind of you to notice. I went out to play pool tonight, and thought of you every time I broke a rack...


          Paul
          You hurt my e-feelings.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Thomas,
            You hurt my e-feelings.
            To hell with your "e-feelings." I flattened a perfectly good tip, and I think I cracked the 1-ball at my second favorite local watering hole!


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Thomas,To hell with your "e-feelings." I flattened a perfectly good tip, and I think I cracked the 1-ball at my second favorite local watering hole!


              Paul
              You haven't seen anything yet. When my wife visualizes my head, while playing pool, she knocks out walls.

              What can I say. People love me.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Thomas,
                People love me.
                That's true. But only because when they look at you, they see themselves. In your scalp...


                Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
                Yo Waggs....chill out bro.

                Truth is....the dude you describe.... is like 127 years old....he's the world's oldest living marketer...so use that to your advantage rather then stressing over it....cuz it aint that big a deal.

                In fact...you'se should write up a press release about this whole thing and turbo blast it into gold....cuz the press would eat it up.

                Your customer has one foot on the grave...and the other foot.... on a slippery banana peel... coated with Wesson Oil.

                He's 167 years old...but he's still out there in the trenches.....sellin' online! That's a friggin' movie of the week, Waggs!

                Let him do whatever he needs to do...cuz most likely he's gonna "shoot snake eys" and die long before he ever figures out how to put up a squeeze page et al.

                The old man deserves have one last moment in the sun.....because most likely he is AWOL from a rest home....and is looking for one last sale before fading off into the great sales tent in the sky.

                Help him out Waggs.....let him sell your product for the hell of it.....cuz it's not like he's gonna be around long enough to do much damage.

                And just think...if he pulls off some sales...you'se can milk that testimonial for years to come...."how the world's oldest living human sold your shit.....fast and easy cuz it works etc."


                Peace

                xxx Vegas Vince
                Legend.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

                  And just think...if he pulls off some sales...you'se can milk that testimonial for years to come...."how the world's oldest living human sold your shit.....fast and easy cuz it works etc."
                  Paul Myers is selling Wags stuff?

                  Who is the oldest between John Taylor and Paul?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Thomas,
                    Who is the oldest between John Taylor and Paul?
                    John Taylor ... and Kevin Riley.

                    Had to be said.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                    Thomas,

                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    Paul Myers is selling Wags stuff?

                    Who is the oldest between John Taylor and Paul?
                    I'm older, he's wiser. He's wiser, I'm older.. it's something like that!

                    But you're definitely balder than us all.

                    John
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                    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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                    • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
                      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

                      Thomas,



                      I'm older, he's wiser. He's wiser, I'm older.. it's something like that!

                      But you're definitely balder than us all.

                      John


                      Sad to report...but my source just called to let me know that Wagg's 192 year old customer just kicked the bucket while sucking a bowl of grits through a very thin straw....while trying to rewrite Wagg's sales page.

                      He never made it past the first paragraph.

                      Sadly, the poor old ******* never had a chance to make one final sale.

                      And I blame Steve Waggs for this man's death.

                      So yeah...Taylor regains the top spot as world's oldest living friggin' human.


                      xxx Vegas Vince
                      Legend.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

                        Sad to report...but my source just called to let me know that Wagg's 192 year old customer just kicked the bucket while sucking a bowl of grits through a very thin straw....while trying to rewrite Wagg's sales page.

                        He never made it past the first paragraph.

                        Sadly, the poor old ******* never had a chance to make one final sale.

                        And I blame Steve Waggs for this man's death.

                        So yeah...Taylor regains the top spot as world's oldest living friggin' human.


                        xxx Vegas Vince
                        Legend.
                        John will remain on top for a long time Vince. That whiskey (whisky) is like embalming fluid to him. It just preserves...
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Ermm it's ovvvvver. Why is anyone (including me :rolleyes even responding?? It's oveeeeeeeeer. Let it diiiiiiiieeeeee. A few ppl think it's fun to pick apart every single letter Steven types out and find something wrong with it. Even if there is something wrong, looks like there would be more fun hobbies out there. Like swimming, that's fun.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Paul Myers is the nicest and well thought out of the "meanies". At least he's fair and pisses off both sides LOL And he says it like it is, doesn't spout off for the sake of spouting off. Humble advice: if you don't like Steven, add him to your ignore list. Then all that time you spend picking apart every single letter, syllable and word he says-which is a lot-can be put to better use.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    What is funny here, is that those who think there are a bunch of meanies out to get Steven, if they really took the time to read, they would find those same meanies actually gave Steven good advice. Look at how things changed, and was it the meanies who changed it.

    Another case of give me advice but only if it is in line with what I want.

    Sorry, if people want limited advice, then explain that they want only certain advice and not solid answers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Bev,

      [quote=Bev Clement;740638]What is funny here, is that those who think there are a bunch of meanies out to get Steven, if they really took the time to read, they would find those same meanies actually gave Steven good advice. quote]

      I don't think anyone is a "meanie". I just think that Steven asked for a solution to a problem, not a psychology session

      My comment wasn't meant to start a debate about whether the infromation was good or not, because most of it was. However, at one point, you can obviously tell that he is feeling attacket, yet instead of leaving the thread alone, people continue to pile on.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        I don't think anyone is a "meanie". I just think that Steven asked for a solution to a problem, not a psychology session

        My comment wasn't meant to start a debate about whether the infromation was good or not, because most of it was. However, at one point, you can obviously tell that he is feeling attacket, yet instead of leaving the thread alone, people continue to pile on.
        Jeremy, when someone constantly has problems it is mainly due to themselves. We all have control over what or how we post. I have made myself look bad many times arguing with people on this forum. I should have just stopped and walked away instead of continuing the arguments.

        Steven attracts this type of behavior. Just look at the title of this thread. It really smells of drama and that is exactly what he gets.

        Personally, I would take a look at what Paul stated above. Too me that was the truth.

        Edited: You are a meanie also.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Thomas,

          I hear what your saying baldy

          My only question is, if everyone knows that it is "drama" or whatever it is...why does everyone continue to participate
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            Thomas,

            I hear what your saying baldy

            My only question is, if everyone knows that it is "drama" or whatever it is...why does everyone continue to participate
            I have been trying to stay out of these types of threads myself. Simply because it doesn't get me anywhere.

            I like to think of it as a car crash where people can't help but look which then creates more car crashes.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Jeremy,
        I don't think anyone is a "meanie".
        I resent that!
        I just think that Steven asked for a solution to a problem, not a psychology session.
        That part was handled in private. My public involvement was for a simple reason: The crap that happened toward the end of last year is not going to happen again.

        Period.

        And that includes having Mr Taylor play the part of BigMike in the ongoing saga.

        There is much bigger crap coming up, and I'd rather not waste my time or anyone else's dealing with this petty bulls__t.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Jeremy because people want to help.

    Steven might not like the answers, or the way they are put, but he is getting good advice. Not only that, but if people reading they will also find good advice given. The problems normally happens because of the reaction to the advice.

    Yes we know we are entering a drama, but think for a moment, someone else might have a problem with a client wanting to sell something which is limited, and comes with personal rights. The solutions could help them.

    People could be trying to sell a product which someone bought and then they did nothing with it, asking the right question would help them to see what the problem could be.

    Even though Steven had a specific customer who was causing a problem, and the waters got muddy, there were areas which would help a lot of people, and that is why people give advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    Off course not many of you outside of the UK will realise that JT had a successful pop career back in the early 80's using the name Fred Wedlock - he was old even then.

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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Peter,

      That's not not him. It's his great grandson, John Taylor Junior III .

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Peter,

        That's not not him. It's his great grandson, John Taylor Junior III .

        Martin
        I think the Highlander movie was created based on John.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

      Off course not many of you outside of the UK will realise that JT had a successful pop career back in the early 80's using the name Fred Wedlock
      Come on Peter, that can't be right. everyone knows
      what a bar steward I am. And that usually begins
      with events that occur outside of wedlock!

      John
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