Grammar is over-rated

50 replies
Ok. Maybe it's not over-rated but a professor at Oxford said to "relax".

It's a short, interesting read.
Hay Festival 2013: Oxford professor asks for grammar pedants to relax - Telegraph

-Garrie
#grammar #overrated
  • Profile picture of the author angshuy2k
    Nice title
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  • Profile picture of the author jtchaschowy
    overrated*
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Most people saying grammar doesn't matter usually suck at it. Maybe the good professor is one of those. Or maybe with the average reading level in America at around the 6th grade, he's being a realist. But it does matter, especially if you're in the communications business which nearly all Internet marketers are.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Most people saying grammar doesn't matter usually suck at it. Maybe the good professor is one of those. Or maybe with the average reading level in America at around the 6th grade, he's being a realist. But it does matter, especially if you're in the communications business which nearly all Internet marketers are.
      Did you read the article?

      -g
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Did you read the article?

        -g
        Yeah, I read it. I know the guy is from Oxford if that's what you're getting at. I'd think a college professor would have better things to do, don't you?
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      • Profile picture of the author scrofford
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Did you read the article?

        -g
        I did, and I don't agree. Too many people have been spelling things however they want, and when it comes to writing professionally, I think it's very unprofessional and lazy.

        Using proper English while writing is very important. It's irritating reading something with major spelling mistakes in it. Just my opinion though.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        Most people saying grammar doesn't matter usually suck at it. Maybe the good professor is one of those. Or maybe with the average reading level in America at around the 6th grade, he's being a realist. But it does matter, especially if you're in the communications business which nearly all Internet marketers are.
        Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

        Did you read the article?

        -g

        Yes, and just because some professor said it doesn't mean that he is right.

        I am not really that pedantic about spelling and grammar, but when the professor suggested the following, his argument fell short...

        said it was not sacrilegious to suggest that “they’re”, “their”, “there” could be spelt in the same way
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Most people saying grammar doesn't matter usually suck at it. Maybe the good professor is one of those. Or maybe with the average reading level in America at around the 6th grade, he's being a realist. But it does matter, especially if you're in the communications business which nearly all Internet marketers are.
      Absolutely travlingu. I get disgusted when I see simple screw ups in grammar or spelling. I am not good at either, but when I see a mistake, I immediatly lose interest in the offer as I figure if they don't know how to write, they probably arn't much good at what ever they are trying to sell me.

      I recently found out the difference between 'will' and 'shall', i use shall often as it seems to sound more right, but I finally went to Google to find out the difference. Really simple, will means second or third person, shall means first person. As in I shall, or you will and they will. Now I know, and it is that easy to find out.
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by timpears View Post

        Absolutely travlingu. I get disgusted when I see simple screw ups in grammar or spelling.
        Did you notice the ones in your reply?
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by timpears View Post

          Absolutely travlingu. I get disgusted when I see simple screw ups in grammar or spelling.
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          Did you notice the ones in your reply?

          Confronting pedantry with pedantry. Jolly good show. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    Nice title. You got me to click. Grammar is NOT overrated. Why? Everything you do online either HELPS your brand or HURTS it. Bad grammar makes you look unprofessional. You are in a death struggle with your competition. Don't give them an inch by failing to mop up easy grammar mistakes.
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    I agree that simplifications are necessary, but until they will be accepted they are not a good idea.


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  • Profile picture of the author igg
    well it depends on the situation i'm pretty sure that english teachers would not agree with that assessment lol
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  • Profile picture of the author roblawrence
    How about penmanship? You don't see much of THAT anymore. Anyone know how to write in cursive still?
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    • Profile picture of the author craftziner
      Originally Posted by roblawrence View Post

      Anyone know how to write in cursive still?
      I still do... but since I got "wire plugged" into a computer I don't use a pen to write much now ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Devin X
    Banned
    Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

    Ok. Maybe it's not over-rated but a professor at Oxford said to "relax".

    It's a short, interesting read.
    While I agree that there are much more pressing matters to deal with, I cannot say that grammar is "overrated". In fact, I think that people are actually getting "dull" because they've seemed to forgotten how to translate their thoughts into coherent written language. I get really frustrated with the amount of threads here that are filled with incoherent, fragmented, and nonsensical words thrown together with no semblance of reason.

    So yeah, as long as people can understand each other, I'd say that there's no reason to go crazy over a few grammatical mistakes here and there. BUT, when people can't seem to formulate coherent thoughts down onto paper, that's a big problem that we need to address. Doest thou comprehend?
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  • Profile picture of the author clg21
    They might say grammar is over-rated since not everyone can speak proper English. There are a lot who does not have the luxury to go to school and learn languages and there are people who lack practice too. You can blame text messages about this however for me, it is still advisable to learn grammar.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    All I know is I spent a lot of money and time in college studying Journalism and when I launched my online career, I was told by my guru clients to throw that all away because it was too stuffy.

    I agree. However, some things I just can't do. I can't use one form of "their/they're/there" - that would drive me absolutely insane because when I see it on FB (especially from the younger generations), my eye twitches.

    I also love that funny saying about punctuation being important and the big difference between:

    Let's eat Grandpa!

    and

    Let's eat, Grandpa!

    That said, I'll dangle a freaking participle at the end of a sentence if I want to. And being the rebel that I am, I see nothing wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition if I want to.

    There are always going to be people who email you nitpicking about grammar and I get it. It's fingernails on the chalkboard for some people.

    But for others, perfect writing is too stuffy and just as irritating.

    Eventually it'll all become slang I feel like. Or worse - text talk. I saw a kid who submitted an essay in all text talk. lol (<--- oops).

    Tiff
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    • Profile picture of the author Elvis Michael
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      I agree. However, some things I just can't do. I can't use one form of "their/they're/there" - that would drive me absolutely insane because when I see it on FB (especially from the younger generations), my eye twitches.

      I also love that funny saying about punctuation being important and the big difference between:

      Let's eat Grandpa!

      and

      Let's eat, Grandpa!

      Eventually it'll all become slang I feel like. Or worse - text talk. I saw a kid who submitted an essay in all text talk. lol (<--- oops).

      Tiff
      Right on! I was just about to ask, "Who in their right mind would want to eat grandpa?"

      I'm not a grammar Nazi and I'm far from perfect -- in fact, I suck as much as the next guy. However, there are certain things that make my blood boil only because they've become so popular. Some words and phrases have somehow become...... acceptable.

      "I'm going to lay down."
      Yeah, this one pisses me off.

      So many people in the entertainment industry love to write/say that something is Copywritten as opposed to Copyrighted. I have even seen actors fall for this. Aren't actors reading from a script carefully written by professional writers????? That's what makes me scratch my head and explode with confusion.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    I did, and I don't agree. Too many people have been spelling things however they want, and when it comes to writing professionally, I think it's very unprofessional and lazy.

    Using proper English while writing is very important. It's irritating reading something with major spelling mistakes in it. Just my opinion though.
    I totally agree. I often feel like jumping in and correcting people in here but I refrain because I know there are people who would feel offended.

    People can make up their own mind whether they have enough care and pride in their business to ensure it's accurate.
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  • Profile picture of the author sam12six
    I don't know if it's overrated or not. I can say that I've never refused to buy something I wanted when the advertising had too few grammar/spelling mistakes but have held off pulling the trigger many times when I thought it looked to be written by a 10 year old.

    Given that, I'll err on the side of caution and try to avoid making too many mistakes in my own writing.
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  • Profile picture of the author ParkerArrow
    Content broker writer guidelines sometimes require strict adherence to stylistic rules (like Textbroker with their hybrid AP style). Even with clearly-delineated rules - writers can attest that editors interpret and misinterpret rules as a matter of course. They are inconsistent even with rules. Let alone editors assessing relevance and persuasiveness and other actual web content criteria for actual success on the web.

    Which sucks because a) an editor is going to edit and lecture writers (turning writers into editors and editors into gatekeepers, and b) writer access to title pools is essentially always in jeopardy.

    Content brokers can embrace the conventions of dead tree media at their own risk.

    I am far more concerned with SEO than oxford comma debates. If someone argues with a web writer about the Oxford comma - while paying SEO writer rates - then not only is their academic standard obsolete for the economy of the Web; but their twice-edited mashups, sorry, articles, are destined for the dustbin.

    Oh, you thought you got a journalist at $7 an hour. How quaint.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brady Partridge
    Isn't pedantry illegal in most states?
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Amazing comments in this thread, that's for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author dancome89
    Thanks for sharing.
    Nice title and comments in this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Fredbou
      I think it depends on the situation. If I'm building a Web site for a client, then I'm going to do the absolute best job I can, and that includes spelling, grammar, non-redundant apostrophes and correct usage of "their", there", "your", you're", etc.

      If it's on a forum, then I relax when reading the posts of others and don't cringe as I do when I see errors in adverts on TV, signs that have been written or composed by "professionals" or Web sites built by people charging for their services.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    It looks like pedantic is the word of the day. How donnish!
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author Sornie Samante
    Man! The subject just caught me up!
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  • Hi Garrie,

    I liked the article. Seems like Mr. Simon Horobin the Oxford English professor is on to something that is recognized by the IM community. The English language and its usage is changing, morphing, evolving right before our eyes. Everyday!

    Look at how many new terms have been invented over the past several years. Many of them are related in some way to the Internet. And it is not uncommon to see folks using words in all kind of mixed up ways, but they still manage to get their point across.

    I agree we should be more relaxed about our reactions to "different usage" within our own English language. If the point isn't clear because of incorrect word usage or misspelling the author will be the loser because the reader may abandon the piece.

    LLS
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Great writers break grammar rules all the time.

    Don't believe me?

    Try reading some of their work without getting
    sucked into the story and just edit for grammar.

    Great communication is great communication.

    Grammar and spelling are both overrated (or over-rated)
    and not especially important if you're effectively
    connecting with your reader.


    There is a point though, where if your spelling and grammar
    are bade enough, it becomes a severe distraction.

    That's bad.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author sam12six
    Andrew,

    I agree with what you're saying if you're talking a comma splice or the sort of thing Tiffany mentioned in her post. Using the wrong word (their instead of they're or loose instead of lose) isn't a grammar mistake - that's just using the wrong word.

    There's no way anyone could convince me that using the wrong word enhances your communication in any way.
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  • Profile picture of the author dsouravs
    Well this type of spell and grammar issues are not happening only to English language but to many or some other languages too.

    Today's fast life, use of internet lingo, sms lingo, huge pool of people not so good in studies but enough to talk normal english ( try to understand what I am trying to say here ) are some causes to this issue.

    As said in article, if some uses Thru instead of through then it means he/she is in hurry or lazy or using his sexy style. But one can understand that thru means through.

    So unless the meaning of a sentence changes totally, then in todays world people will be ignoring it.

    and as far IM is concerned, In my personal opinion, grammar becomes a 2nd important stuff if your service is good (like graphic design service), or if you're a content writer then trust becomes important with the help of real useful information and images.

    my 2C
    TY
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  • Profile picture of the author metaarticles
    Well from a sales guy's point of view. As long as we are able to get our point across in a clear, interesting and professional manner, grammar may not matter too much. However, in certain professions, bad grammar is perceived as being unprofessional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Social App Zone
    I have been pondering lately on how much Google takes grammar into account when ranking a page.
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  • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
    Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

    Ok. Maybe it's not over-rated but a professor at Oxford said to "relax".

    It's a short, interesting read.
    Hay Festival 2013: Oxford professor asks for grammar pedants to relax - Telegraph

    -Garrie
    Sounds like he is trying to apply the doctrine of relativism to grammar.

    I don't like it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
    The assumption being made is that Oxford Professors' opinions are worth much. In my experience - having known a few - that's a big stretch.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

      The assumption being made is that Oxford Professors' opinions are worth much. In my experience - having known a few - that's a big stretch.
      I don't think anyone made that assumption.
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  • Profile picture of the author hirechrisgunn
    Grammar is the math of language. I hated English and reading so much growing up unless we were studying grammar because interpretation is not science. Math is a science, and when you put language into a formation that exhibits mathematics, I am a very happy person.

    Grammar has been relaxed enough in our speaking skills. Let's stop there. The people who can speak and write intricately will be a lost skill...just like sewing.

    Say NO to destroying the math of language! :p
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    • Profile picture of the author ElaineBrown
      Banned
      Language is a tool that makes communication possible. It is made up of an arbitrary set of signs accepted by the language community. Incorrect spelling can hinder understanding and, subsequently, communication, too if a sign referring to something is used instead of another sign that means something else - there, their?
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  • Profile picture of the author Meta Morph
    it really only matters if you're writing code, people skim anyway
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  • You only have one chance to leave a good first-time impression, specially in business when you're asking your visitors to swing their credit card in your site... Riddling your website with grammar mess ups, or with poor design, or with long video buffering times, etc is a VERY bad advise, regardless of whether it comes from an Oxford professor or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author fin
      I don't think it needs to be perfect.

      Some articles I try to read send me to sleep. I think it's much more important to make sure your articles are engaging and help your readers.

      The only thing that matters is how much money you're making.

      Would a successful blogger make more money if they started writing like an English Lit professor? I seriously doubt it.
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  • Profile picture of the author HKSEO Jonbones
    Tell, me how irritating it's to read this; with incorrect punctuation: let alone bad grammar.

    Bad grammar makes you look like an idiot, regardless of your Guru status


    There's a reason he's at Oxford, and not Brown, Yale or Harvard, BTW
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  • Profile picture of the author ceenote100
    I can't take any marketers seriously if they have bad grammar. It's not too much work to proofread and spellcheck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve B
    Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

    Ok. Maybe it's not over-rated but a professor at Oxford said to "relax".
    -Garrie
    Garrie,

    The professor was directing his comments to "the grammar police and spelling pedants to be a bit more relaxed about changing standards of written English." (emphasis mine)

    These are people who love to put their knowledge on display for all to see. In my opinion, he's telling them to lighten up a bit and relax their enthusiasm for holding tight to the stiff rules of grammar.

    I don't think his comments were meant for the average web site owner.

    I personally believe good grammar is important; however, being genuine and opening up your personality to your clients/subscribers/prospects is just as important - maybe more so.

    Each of us has to find the right balance between correct grammar and communicating effectively "in our own voice" so that we don't come off as either too stuffy or too uneducated.

    I have a feeling that the type of business or web site you operate could have something to do with your projected persona and the grammar you use. If you're coaching folks on preparing a resume I think proper English is critical. If you're selling catfish stink bait maybe it's not so important.

    Good luck to you all,

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      Garrie,

      The professor was directing his comments to "the grammar police and spelling pedants to be a bit more relaxed about changing standards of written English." (emphasis mine)
      I know. The article starts with that.

      -g
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      He say it are, I says it ain't... :p

      As the eminent Mr. Twain/Clemens once said, the difference between a word and the right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.

      If you decide to break the rules of grammar in the interest of clear communication, that's one thing. If you break them out of ignorance or laziness, that's another thing entirely.

      BTW, I still know how to write cursive, but my hand is so bad that even I can't read what I wrote half the time. I've evolved a kind of half cursive, half printing shorthand for taking notes I can decipher later.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    ACTUALLY, it is UNDERrated!

    "Prof Horobin, said that it was a “comparatively recent phenomenon” that we all stuck to a standard form of spelling, pointing out that in Middle English there were 500 different recorded spellings of “through”, including: drowgh, trowffe, trghug, yhurght."

    OK....

    yhurght de jeias iey ave bin imaiset yat ou musc eiy um xpektid du ndirstnt kn du forstar dis? maske jeg skull tayler po dorlie dansck!


    NOW, how many words did YOU understand? Today, one person reversed everything, etc.... I and another had to struggle to determine what he was trying to say, and I doubt either of us cared!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author roblawrence
    The only thing helping grammar today is Scrabble and Words With Friends.
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