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Dirty Comptetion

by Bellerine
21 replies
Hi all,

One of the sites I run sells a digital product. However, this digital product costs me money - it's not like an e-book where if I get a chargeback it's whatever, I actually lose money.

Several sites doing the same thing have come and gone. There is one, however, that stuck. He has used gray/black hat tactics to try to steal my traffic such as posting on my youtube video that this was his site but the link was old and listing his, saying we're a scam, trying to get my forum posts and yahoo answers deleted etc etc.

Turns out, he wasn't doing well and closed down. However, after personal events in his left him jobless, he came back at it relentlessly. He also regularly takes customer's money and sends nothing.

I have taken the high road for the past 10 months, but it's getting out of control. He even uses MY customer service number on receipts when he scams people - costing me valuable time explaining to the customer what has happened. Plus, giving sites of the nature a bad name in general.

My question: do I take legal action? Sink to his level and play dirty back? Continue on my merry way ignoring his dirty tricks?

He's actually a member of this forum ...

PS - Sorry for spelling "competition" incorrectly in the title. It won't let me fix it now.
#comptetion #dirty
  • Profile picture of the author Radium
    Have you actually tried contacting him? If someone was doing that to me I would definitely try to solve it personally and give them a warning. If you ever decide to take legal action against someone, which you should if they are causing a significant loss of income, it will only be a benefit if you have contacted them in the matter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      Yes, we conversed once.

      He contacted me asking how I was dealing with the loss issue and asking if I was interested in partnering up (after he'd done most of what was listed above.) I wasn't about to divulge my practices, but said I was open to some joining somehow; what did he have in mind? He never responded after that. Just wanted me to give him my secrets I guess.

      I suppose I could contact him and directly warn him that if his actions continue, I will pursue legal action. I was thinking of beginning with a simple cease and desist letter, which is the same thing with a bit more weight. Yes/no?
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      • Profile picture of the author Radium
        Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

        I suppose I could contact him and directly warn him that if his actions continue, I will pursue legal action. I was thinking of beginning with a simple cease and desist letter, which is the same thing with a bit more weight. Yes/no?
        I don't feel like I'm in the position to give any legal advice, but I'd say definitely go for it, if you are sure you're ready to go that far. You have all the rights to protect your business. Facing such a resistance means that you are doing something right?

        And gather up any possible evidence from the past and the present if he does not stop.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      Thanks for the advice, guys. I am lucky enough to have a corporate attorney as a cousin, that specializes in global and internet business.

      I have kept a record of customer statements, his posts and the like. We are also considering serving an affidavit to Yahoo answers and forums where he has defamed us to see if they'd release the information that way, before seeking a subpena.

      You're right about not sinking to his level. It wasn't ever a real possibility. It only gets a little tempting when he's so shady and I get angry. I did send him a personal email since I posted this, telling him that if it did not stop I would pursue legal action. We'll see if that is enough, but I doubt it. Would trying to ban him from these forums, as suggested, be doing so?

      Business is business and competition is healthy and fair. If he out-marketed me, out-serviced me, whatever, I'd just try to improve. That's not the case though, he's playing dirty.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

        I did send him a personal email since I posted this, telling him that if it did not stop I would pursue legal action. We'll see if that is enough, but I doubt it.

        If I were in this position and I decided to pursue legal actions, it would not stop with a cease-and-desist letter.

        I would not be satisfied with the party simply stopping his actions.

        I would demand and expect the opposing party to not only stop defaming me, but to also clean up the damage that had already been done. He still has access to his YouTube and Yahoo Answers accounts, and he should remove the damaging comments he has made to date.

        I would seek to have all defamatory information removed from the web before I would even consider to stop pursuing legal judgments against him. And, if I were pursuing legal action, I would try to inflict as much pain as possible on the other party.

        I am slow to anger, but once my hand is forced, I seek to crush my opponent.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I am slow to anger, but once my hand is forced, I seek to crush my opponent.
          That's pretty much where I am with it too. I put up with it for a long time, then he finally shut down. I do know who he is and I also know that he was arrested and on the news for ... well, I won't post that publicly. As such, he lost his job. That is why he's come back this past month with such a nasty vengeance.

          I don't know if I'm really out to crush him. As I said, competition is healthy and fair. That said, yes, we absolutely intend to force the removal of any and all defamatory content about us. I welcome him trying to out-do me without resorting to such tactics though.

          Here's another question - I have proof he scams customers. Do I warn people not to use his site or would that be too close to what he tries to do (though mine would be true and his is not)?
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

            I don't know if I'm really out to crush him. As I said, competition is healthy and fair. That said, yes, we absolutely intend to force the removal of any and all defamatory content about us. I welcome him trying to out-do me without resorting to such tactics though.

            Here's another question - I have proof he scams customers. Do I warn people not to use his site or would that be too close to what he tries to do (though mine would be true and his is not)?

            The deal is that I don't want to have to add a ton of attorney fees to my cost of doing business, so if someone forces me to bring in the legal eagles, I will seek a large judgment against the individual I am fighting.

            Competition is healthy and fair, but this fellow is not a competitor, because he is not trying to compete with you on a level playing field.

            When he scams people and offers your customer support email address with his payment system, he is putting you in the line of fire of lawsuits, FTC actions, and fraud charges. Any one of those items could lead to your assets being frozen and possible jail time. There is nothing in his actions that could be construed as fair competition. What he is doing is entirely illegal and felonious.

            He is attempting to crush YOU with his fraudulent activities. So, I would not be offering him any measure of mercy when you pursue legal recourse against him.

            Even if he is unemployed and he has no pot to piss in, I would seek large damages against him. With a legal judgment against him, your attorney could garnish his wages at his next job (and the one after that, and the one after that) to collect the dollars awarded to you.

            Save the proof you have of his scams for your attorney and your lawsuit against him for damaging your business.

            Don't stoop to his level and make accusations against him (by name) on the Internet, until you have a legal judgment against him settled in your favor.

            Even in court, his previous convictions may not be relevant to the case at hand, so you should be careful not to reveal that information publicly in an attempt to defend your business.
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            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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            • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
              Sage advice. His email returns have been so infuriating it tempts me to make bad decisions.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              The deal is that I don't want to have to add a ton of attorney fees to my cost of doing business, so if someone forces me to bring in the legal eagles, I will seek a large judgment against the individual I am fighting.

              Competition is healthy and fair, but this fellow is not a competitor, because he is not trying to compete with you on a level playing field.

              When he scams people and offers your customer support email address with his payment system, he is putting you in the line of fire of lawsuits, FTC actions, and fraud charges. Any one of those items could lead to your assets being frozen and possible jail time. There is nothing in his actions that could be construed as fair competition. What he is doing is entirely illegal and felonious.

              He is attempting to crush YOU with his fraudulent activities. So, I would not be offering him any measure of mercy when you pursue legal recourse against him.

              Even if he is unemployed and he has no pot to piss in, I would seek large damages against him. With a legal judgment against him, your attorney could garnish his wages at his next job (and the one after that, and the one after that) to collect the dollars awarded to you.

              Save the proof you have of his scams for your attorney and your lawsuit against him for damaging your business.

              Don't stoop to his level and make accusations against him (by name) on the Internet, until you have a legal judgment against him settled in your favor.

              Even in court, his previous convictions may not be relevant to the case at hand, so you should be careful not to reveal that information publicly in an attempt to defend your business.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
                In conclusion, he called my customer service number screaming at me. I simply reminded him that all calls to and from this number we're recorded and let him continue.

                He, in turn, accused me of posing as customers and making chargebacks. I let him yell at me a while and then told him some of the proof I had. He wanted to see it, but I told him that I could not oblige due to our Privacy Policy with our customers though he would likely see it via discovery in the court process.

                He tried bullying me some more by being loud and stating how much more experience he had and that he was so much better.

                The thing is, I'm lucky enough to have a cousin who graduated from Yale then NYU law who is a corporate attorney specializing in global and internet law. She has informed me we absolutely have grounds for not merely a cease and desist letter, bur a defamation case which includes him having to remove any inflammatory content and compensate us for business lost (the onus of business lost numbers are very loose in these cases.) as well as any costs incurred to outsource the tracking of content posted and legal fees.

                At the end of the conversation, I was proud I'd kept my professional hat on and essentially played dumb about his claims of being better. I am looking at it like I have given plenty of fair warning. The very next time there is a single similar occurrence, no warning email, no conversation, just us, him, court, proof and his butt up a river.

                I still feel like it's just a real shame. We'd both be better off spending all this energy concentrating on furthering our own endeavors than fighting each other. Ah well, time will tell.

                Thank you for the helpful responses.
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                • Profile picture of the author bengirwb
                  Ah, the hell with being nice guy and dragging things out.

                  I'd find out where he lives and bloody his nose.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
                    Hahaha, both my father and fiance had a similar response.

                    Originally Posted by bengirwb View Post

                    Ah, the hell with being nice guy and dragging things out.

                    I'd find out where he lives and bloody his nose.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

                  In conclusion, he called my customer service number screaming at me. I simply reminded him that all calls to and from this number we're recorded and let him continue.

                  Brilliant response.

                  And, it was good that you did not take the "argument bait".
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

    I suppose I could contact him and directly warn him that if his actions continue, I will pursue legal action. I was thinking of beginning with a simple cease and desist letter, which is the same thing with a bit more weight. Yes/no?
    This would be how I'd be looking at it, I think. (I think I probably wouldn't threaten legal action if unwilling actually to take any).

    Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

    Sink to his level and play dirty back?
    This I wouldn't even consider. I'd feel that in a situation in which I have the moral high ground, the one thing I don't want to do - whatever the future developments - is lose it. And I'd be very uncomfortable about doing that. A non-starter, I think.

    Good luck and good wishes.

    I may be completely wrong about this, but I think it's just possible that if this person is actually selling anything here, and you discuss it with the moderators and satisfy them fully of what you've said above, his membership here might end. (I don't suggest that that would necessarily achieve any of your objectives, though).
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  • Profile picture of the author rodsav
    I would like to share this article with you guys. Recently a Baton Rouge man was indicted by a federal grand jury for scamming wholesalers out of $166,000 in a scam dealing with chicken feet. The United States Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations conducted this investigation. Assistant United States Attorney J. Lane Ewing, Jr prosecuted the case. He was sentenced to 21 months in a Federal prison.
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    • Profile picture of the author hsbinmarket
      Originally Posted by rodsav View Post

      I would like to share this article with you guys. Recently a Baton Rouge man was indicted by a federal grand jury for scamming wholesalers out of $166,000 in a scam dealing with chicken feet. The United States Customs Enforcement's Homeland Security Investigations conducted this investigation. Assistant United States Attorney J. Lane Ewing, Jr prosecuted the case. He was sentenced to 21 months in a Federal prison.
      Good News!! Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
    If he's taken things as far as scamming your would-be customers and making it appear as it was you, simply getting him to stop isn't enough.

    Those are serious offenses and people like that shouldn't just move on without there being any consequences.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    Well, the courtesy e-mail got a strong response. 1,000 words plus on him telling me in one line he's so giant he doesn't concern himself with us, then in the next telling me how much he hates our layout and business structure. Calling me "sweetheart" a lot and what a guru he his and claiming to rank higher - which is just plain laughable.

    So much for courtesy. I guess it's on. Or as he says time to "play ruff".

    I much prefer to just do my business. It's a real shame nasty people are so prevalent. This is also when I get tempted to play dirty back, by the way. Arrests and mug shots are public record after all ..
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    I’m sorry because you have this problem. I just wanted to tell you that you are not the only one who has to deal with strange behavior online. I also had to deal with many unfair attacks, and while I was a newbie. The online world is very dangerous.

    I believe you will win this battle. You seem to be well-equipped and your enemy doesn’t seem to be so strong.







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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      Originally Posted by clever7 View Post

      I'm sorry because you have this problem. I just wanted to tell you that you are not the only one who has to deal with strange behavior online. I also had to deal with many unfair attacks, and while I was a newbie. The online world is very dangerous.

      I believe you will win this battle. You seem to be well-equipped and your enemy doesn't seem to be so strong.
      It's a real shame to have to go through. Silly people, tricks are for kids.
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      • Profile picture of the author hsbinmarket
        Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

        It's a real shame to have to go through. Silly people, tricks are for kids.
        Very nice to hear -"Silly people, tricks are for kids" !!
        Criminals are sick! A sick one cannot decide like an normal adult person.

        Feels so happy with your confidence level. Keep going.
        Best of luck!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author hsbinmarket
    Yes, you shoud take legal action. Otherwise this sort of crime increases day by day and you will face greater one in future. But before taking legal steps collect and confirm about the proof u can represent before the judge.
    Hope for the best.
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