Enough with the "building a relationship" stuff

by wesd22
143 replies
What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

Of course not.

I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
#building a relationship #stuff
  • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
    Banned
    Not that I have a list or use one, but I do know that building a relationship with people on your list is VERY important. In fact THE most important thing if you plan on making repeat offers to them.

    There's a world of difference between just selling products, and selling products or services to a list.

    Then again, what do I or anyone else on WF that you've just trashed with your pathetic statement, know. You've a lot to learn.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Most of the examples you've given are of inanimate
      products (except the restaurant).

      The need for "building a relationship" exists on a scale
      from 'no need at all' to a 'high need' depending upon the
      specific situation and context.

      It's not a black/white, either/or thing.

      Relationship building is increasingly important in products
      and services that center around personalities - especially
      in the guru and information marketing industries.

      Relationship can be a great way of differentiating yourself
      from the competition who can more or less offer the same
      product or service and content.

      Sure, you can make sales without building the relationship
      but you'll make more sales for longer if you build stronger
      relationships with your subscribers than your competitors
      do.

      All other things being equal, people buy from people they
      know, like and trust.


      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
    Perhaps, it is you that isn't the type of person someone wants to have a relationship with?

    I got gas at the corner gas station this morning and when I went inside to pay, the guy behind the counter already had a French Vanilla cappuccino ready for me.

    When I walked into Tubby's last week, the owner called me by name and asked if I wanted the usual.

    When I checked out at the grocery store Saturday, the cashier asked me how my grandchildren were doing.

    When I went to the bank on Friday, the teller greeted me with, "Hi Terra! I love your new pink purse!"

    That sounds like relationships to me, no?

    You might say it is because I go to the same places all the time and you would be correct. Why do I go to the same places all of the time rather than different gas stations, sub shops, grocery stores and banks? Because they have gone out of their way to develop a relationship with me.

    Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    A big part of the difference is that online people don't
    get to deal with you face to face, so the trust factor
    is much more important. They are entering their credit
    card info into a web form and often nervously hoping
    that they get what they think they are buying.

    In the brick-and-mortar world, companies have spend
    hundreds of millions building brands... and using that
    to define both the quality of the products and what you
    can expect from the company.

    Branding IS relationship building!

    Willie
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    • Profile picture of the author wesd22
      Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post


      Branding IS relationship building!
      No it's not. Nice try though.
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      • Profile picture of the author wesd22
        I think most of you slept through statistics classes. You should try analyzing the current business environment through a critical lens. You'll see that the "relationship building" fluff is just head in the clouds nonsense that is vague enough to mean something to everyone yet have no real meaning.

        I'm typing this on Chrome btw- a browser that didn't "build a relationship" with me. Instead some faceless company built the browser and I found it fast, so I'm using it.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

          I think most of you slept through statistics classes. You should try analyzing the current business environment through a critical lens. You'll see that the "relationship building" fluff is just head in the clouds nonsense that is vague enough to mean something to everyone yet have no real meaning.

          I'm typing this on Chrome btw- a browser that didn't "build a relationship" with me. Instead some faceless company built the browser and I found it fast, so I'm using it.

          Well, that explains everything now.

          Ask any seasoned employee, including self employed, or employer and they will tell you years of hands on experience beats fresh out of school book smarts any day of the week, every time.

          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author aidacopy
          what niche are you in?

          the people who buy the products you pitch may buy based on appeal the first time around. but whether they'll continue buying products from you depends very much on the relationship you build with them.

          one of the rudimentary sales lessons is that it's much easier to keep the customer you have than to find a new one. why do you think that is? a part of it is your offer, however a larger part of it is the relationship and trust that develops.
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        • Profile picture of the author RKeele
          Wow! I cant believe that you don't think building relationships is important. I really don't know what to say to that except that you obviously don't want repeat sales, or even a first sale from some buyers due to lack of trust.

          Building relationships and trust is key to being successful to any busy regardless of whether it is online or not.

          As far as your example of "Pepsi", well they have been around a long time and have spent years and millions on advertising building their reputation and brand. When you walked into the grocery store there were tons of generic brands out there that taste like or similar to Pepsi for a much lower price. Yet you purchased and drank Pepsi. You obviously didn't realize that when you purchased that Pepsi it was because of all the marketing they had done to build their brand and reputation, so you trusted them and that is ultimately why you chose them over their competition. Building trust and relationships effects people on the subconscious level, and influences even the smallest decisions that you take for granted.

          Just my 2 cents.
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        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
          Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

          I think most of you slept through statistics classes. You should try analyzing the current business environment through a critical lens. You'll see that the "relationship building" fluff is just head in the clouds nonsense that is vague enough to mean something to everyone yet have no real meaning.

          I'm typing this on Chrome btw- a browser that didn't "build a relationship" with me. Instead some faceless company built the browser and I found it fast, so I'm using it.
          How did Google build Chrome so well?
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          • Profile picture of the author jorgesil
            I suppose you might see a difference between "order takers" and sales people. Anybody can set up a shop and throw up stuff on the counter at a good price that people will buy.

            Takes a salesperson to talk to a person, find out what they want, ease their concerns, help them choose a product, and be there for them when they've got any questions after the fact.

            I used to buy these protein drinks from a local health food shop. Inanimate object. I didn't build a relationship with it. I bought it only on price.

            Except one day, I bought it, went outside to sit on the bench to drink it, and the lid didn't "pop" when I opened it.

            I walked back inside, told the store owner (who had built a relationship with me) that it didn't "pop."

            He didn't question me or ask me if I "did it wrong" or anything. He just apologized, and got me another one.

            Had he given me any grief, I likely would never have shopped their again. But since he did, every time I needed a health food related item, I went out of my way to buy it from him.

            Even Splenda.
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  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    It's even more important online since the #1 reason why people don't buy is lack of TRUST. Building a relationship with your subscribers builds trust. Once they trust you, you can recommend many different products to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    Building a relationship is indispensable if you want to have repeat customers.








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  • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
    Your ignorance is staggering.

    Mr Crawford was 100% right. A lot of money is invested in brands, so we develop a relationship with their look, feel, ideals and slogans - possibly even moreso than internet products.

    Your argument is that price and presentation are the only indicative factors in a purchase.

    The art of sales is the art of rapport.

    Look at the way car salesman operate - no relationships there right? Like Terra, I return to all the businesses that treat me as a person, small social gestures such as saying hello, asking if I want the 'usual' etc.

    I sometimes make impulse purchases, purely for the reason I 'like' the seller, not because I needed the actual product.

    Get educated in this arena, if you are looking to make some money in the IM field.
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  • Profile picture of the author rmolina88
    I dunno, I like my customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
    Ok, I take back some of the venom from my post, for this absolute gem you posted on the 'Where can I find a Kindle Writer?' thread:


    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    Drop a dollar on the sidewalk and wait 5 seconds.

    LMFAO, WF not usually the place to go for acid wit like that
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    • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
      Banned
      People, you're wasting your time posting. The OP is obviously a Grade A dork, and it doesn't matter how well-worded your argument is for him being wrong, he'll still ignite his five remaining brain cells and come back insisting he's right.

      Some people you can teach sense into. Some people you can talk sense into. Some people you can slap sense into. Then there's the OP . . . who's probably busy right now looking up the word "dork".
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

        What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

        Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

        Of course not.
        Oh yeah they did!


        I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.
        I use spenda - when truvia is not around.

        I trust those brands. I have a relationship with them. My relationship? I use them and I trust that I'm removing calories from my daily intake.


        I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.
        So you're a foodie too? You don't think they are serving you what you want in order to build a relationship?

        I feed my man all kinds of food I know he likes. It builds our relationship.


        The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

        The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

        Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.
        Hmmmm, so you are saying putting importance on good product and marketing in general does not build some kind of relationship?

        Hold on a sec - define for me your idea of a relationship. Maybe that will open some doors.

        In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
        Product might appeal - but without feedback/surveys your product can go right down the toilet.

        Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

        No it's not. Nice try though.
        I'll tell you what - you tell me you make more than Willie makes and I'll take it all back.
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        "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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        • Profile picture of the author wesd22
          You guys are victims of three things:

          1. Using a liberal version of "relationship"

          2. Using "relationship" in your marketing vocabulary to begin with - it's such an all-encompassing word that means practically nothing.

          3. Confusing "relationship" with" relationship-building." I'm saying the "relationship building" stuff is fluff. Aside from a few industries, it has no significant statistical impact on businesses' success.
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        • Profile picture of the author wesd22
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post


            They didn't build some relationship with me through emails and social media, etc.

            They made a product. They made sure it was available to a gazillion restaurants. I tried it. I liked it. Boom. End of story.
            And let's say you suddenly saw a bunch of people putting down splenda. Saying it was too expensive, saying it made them sick, and saying - oh, good lord, something like "Truvia is a bazillion times better."

            What do you think the Splenda company will do?

            You don't think there has been some relationship building going on somewhere in the mix?

            What about Equal? That stuff is pretty good too.

            Did you know Splenda offers coupons?

            Did you know they kick out FREE RECIPES to use their product?

            Did you know there is a splenda/sugar mix on the market?

            I do believe there is a brown sugar version as well.

            So again, please define what you think relationship building is all about.
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            • Profile picture of the author rossm
              Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

              And let's say you suddenly saw a bunch of people putting down splenda. Saying it was too expensive, saying it made them sick, and saying - oh, good lord, something like "Truvia is a bazillion times better."

              What do you think the Splenda company will do?

              You don't think there has been some relationship building going on somewhere in the mix?

              What about Equal? That stuff is pretty good too.

              Did you know Splenda offers coupons?

              Did you know they kick out FREE RECIPES to use their product?

              Did you know there is a splenda/sugar mix on the market?

              I do believe there is a brown sugar version as well.

              So again, please define what you think relationship building is all about.
              Brown sugar....lol, the Rolling Stones made a song about this...thats what this guy is on!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author rossm
    Dude, people who use the web to buy stuff are not just "numbers", they are real people with emotions just like you.

    The golden rule is, if you didnt know it......."sell yourself first".

    I just get the feeling you cant be bothered
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    • Profile picture of the author wesd22
      Originally Posted by rossm View Post

      Dude, people who use the web to buy stuff are not just "numbers", they are real people with emotions just like you.

      The golden rule is, if you didnt know it......."sell yourself first".

      I just get the feeling you cant be bothered
      You're building strawmen and knocking them down. Try re-reading my original post.
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      • Profile picture of the author rossm
        Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

        You're building strawmen and knocking them down. Try re-reading my original post.
        OK well you know better that me. Regardless, in any buying transaction of any type, there always a subconscious emotional feeling to the good. No-one buys from someone they dont like.....
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  • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
    Succesful Troll is succesful.
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  • Profile picture of the author tkerth
    I think it really depends what kind of business you run. I know plenty of small business in my town that get all of their business from the relationships they have with the community. Obviously large corporations that have products like splenda don't have to build a relationship with you because they already own a large portion of the market but think about how a company that would want to compete with splenda would have to do. I think they would probably have to start by creating relationships with future customers and getting them interested in their product.
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  • Profile picture of the author TegaD
    The point everyone is trying to get acroos is that you do not have the resources to do what splenda have done, the next best thing is build a base of followers that value your recomendations and are willing to suspend their disbelief or distrust because you have invested the time to help them achieve something no matter how big or small, and actually buy a product simply because YOU recomended it.

    I'd be interested to know what model you follow and how much repeat busines you get from your list if you believe that relationship building is B.S.?
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  • Profile picture of the author Gambino
    The OP clearly does not understand the basic principles involved with building and maintaining a list/relationship. Or branding a business. Or how the two can be combined. Nor has he/she shown a desire to understand it. So everyone posting here is just wasting their time.

    My best guess is that the OP 'tried' to build some type of relationship/list with his customers, forced a bunch of crap products down their throat, which they didn't buy, got mad, and posted this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

      The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.
      Apart from the one built by their having spent tens/hundreds of millions over the decades on branding and advertising, you mean?

      Originally Posted by PayLaterPlace View Post

      My best guess is that the OP 'tried' to build some type of relationship/list with his customers, forced a bunch of crap products down their throat, which they didn't buy, got mad, and posted this thread.
      Yes, something like this. Well analyzed/theorized, here.
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      • Profile picture of the author wesd22
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Apart from the one built by their having spent tens/hundreds of millions over the decades on branding and advertising, you mean?
        That's not relationship building. That is getting people to know about their product so that when the consumers are at the store they are more likely to buy

        I mean, do I really have to spell that out for you?

        Many people in this forum need to open their eyes and realize that people buy products to satisfy a need or want, not because you tried to build some relationship with them.

        I just booked a hotel room today. Guess what? No relationship building going on. It has great amenities, a great price, and great reviews. The CEO didn't personally email building a relationship.

        It's clear there are two things going on:

        1. What you want to believe, i.e., the useless Tony Robbins/make-money-online fluff crap that spews the feel-good "you can do it!" relationship nonsense

        and

        2. Reality; i.e., why people really buy
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          So Wes...what exactly are you selling?

          I'd like to know because you've branded yourself as stone cold and I'd prefer to purchase it from one of your warmer competitors even if it costs more and takes hours to find.

          Now that would definitely make me feel all warm and fuzzy!

          Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author scrofford
          Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

          That's not relationship building. That is getting people to know about their product so that when the consumers are at the store they are more likely to buy

          I mean, do I really have to spell that out for you?

          Many people in this forum need to open their eyes and realize that people buy products to satisfy a need or want, not because you tried to build some relationship with them.

          I just booked a hotel room today. Guess what? No relationship building going on. It has great amenities, a great price, and great reviews. The CEO didn't personally email building a relationship.

          It's clear there are two things going on:

          1. What you want to believe, i.e., the useless Tony Robbins/make-money-online fluff crap that spews the feel-good "you can do it!" relationship nonsense

          and

          2. Reality; i.e., why people really buy
          The only thing is that I WON'T purchase from someone that I've had a bad experience with before. I don't care if the product is awesome, helps me, or takes care of a need or want.

          The point of the matter is that people that sell products build relationships in order to not only sell their products, but to make sure the customer COMES BACK AGAIN.

          Sure you can sell a product or service once to somebody, BUT if you want to continue making money from that person, you better have a good reputation with them. It's not just about how good the product is, or if it fills a want or need.

          For instance, you said that you made a hotel reservation. Well I choose my hotels based on the service and convienence I've received in the past. If I had a bad experience with a certain hotel, I don't care if the price is better, or if they offer HBO and Showtime and free movies, and the others don't, or a 7 course meal for breakfast. I won't book with them.

          Relationship building in business is more than just how you're looking at it. It's building a good reputation with people so that they will continue to do business with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author rossm
      Originally Posted by PayLaterPlace View Post

      The OP clearly does not understand the basic principles involved with building and maintaining a list/relationship. Or branding a business. Or how the two can be combined. Nor has he/she shown a desire to understand it. So everyone posting here is just wasting their time.

      My best guess is that the OP 'tried' to build some type of relationship/list with his customers, forced a bunch of crap products down their throat, which they didn't buy, got mad, and posted this thread.
      That seems to be the case, however, everyone makes mistakes, especially in this game, lets hope he learns something and maybe one day cracks it
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  • Maybe what wesd22 might be trying to highlight is the somewhat "fake" side of the relationship building strategies used in marketing by companies, and more specifically in email marketing.

    The fact is that if you are on a marketers list, then most likely the marketer may not even know that you exist unless you reply to one of their emails and you end up having a conversation. It is also very likely that the marketer really does not care deeply about you, nor do they really want to build a personal relationship with you and get to know you in dept. (What they do want to know is what type of items you are in the market for). Therefore what a marketer really wants, is to build a relationship with your wallet. That sounds shallow, but it is what it is. Online and offline.

    Thus if you are a marketer, and I am on your list, you will surely be working hard (for weeks or months if that's what it takes) on making me feel comfortable enough with you in order for me to pull out my credit card and buy whatever you're selling. Why else did you build your list, and why else did you ask me to opt in right?

    And so maybe this is the kind of "building a relationship stuff" that the OP is referring to, and is tired of.

    If you do a search on the warrior forum for questions such as: "how many friendly free advice emails should I send them before I try to sell them my crap?",

    (I'm paraphrasing here)

    you will then see answers such as, "well you need to build a relationship with them first and get them to trust you by giving them some free tips etc....
    then once they think you are their friend, then sell them your crap!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Doug Wakefield
      I am going to use a poster in this very thread to prove an example. One of us has a lot of valuable information on the topic of article marketing. She pops in on various threads handing out the information to anyone willing to listen. By doing so she has earned a reputation on the forum based upon her relationship to us as a community. She doesn't have to say a word to any of us, yet she willingly shares about anything (that isn't a question about what niches she is in anyways :p) on the topic.

      She has built that relationship to the point that many of us would quickly plunk down money to have all that information in one handy little guide. Many of us practically beg for it. Simply due to her willingness to share.

      If she had, instead, come here and spouted "buy my crap" she wouldn't have the reputation she has today.

      And a list can be all about the "buy my crap" emails. While I haven't done much with it in previous months, anyone on my PLR list can attest to the fact that I only email when I have something to sell. I may occasionally share information about other sales going on, or share a post or article I found helpful, but overall most of my mails are simply "I got new crap to sell." But, if you sign up for my list, you were wanting to hear that already.

      There are times that I post to talk about my life and ask for response. I love baseball, and my emails deliver that without a doubt to my subscribers. While I may be a Cardinal's fan, I've had back and forth emails from customers who loved other teams.

      Most of my relationships have been built on the times that I ask questions to my list. I ask them for ideas on topics, how to package things, and what they like. I have a few good friends thanks to that list.

      My key has been to not hide the overall purpose of my list while letting them know that there is an actual person behind the email.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Ray
    Relationship building could mean a lot of different things to different people.
    The term "relationship" could mean anything! Its Not necessary a good thing.

    Criminals who want to steal from you often have to "build a relationship" with you
    first so you trust them. Then, they steal your money. Can you really call this relationship building?

    As it was mentioned, Pepsi is consistently delivering the same product so you can trust them, but
    drinking Pepsi might be very bad for your health and maybe the owners of Pepsi know this,
    they just don't care about you! They want to take your money. (BTW: I have no idea if this is really the case with Pepsi, I am just using Pepsi to make a point. Pepsi might be the best thing for your health, I really don't know)

    The situation is the same with the IM person who wants to build a "relationship" with their list so they can later sell them something that is : 1. Not really good for them 2. They are Not sure if it is good for them 3. They couldn't care less if its good for them or not.

    Here is the reality: we have to build or sell a product that we KNOW will be good for the people who buy it. A product we feel good about. A product that we would happily give to any of our family members to use. A product we use ourselves and love. Then, we try to market that product to anyone who is interested.

    This way REAL relationships will develop between you and your costumers! Otherwise its all a deliberate intent to deceive the people on your list for your own personal gain!




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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    Relationship building isn't about making the first sale, it's about the lifetime customer value. There are two glaring flaws with your conclusion here. First, both the restaurant and hotel you reference did build a relationship with you - you just don't seem to understand what that means. The menu and room amenities are only part of the equation that determines whether you'll ever return there. Would you go back if the staff you interacted with had a bad attitude? Probably not. How the staff interacts with the customer is relationship building, and it's important. The "product" is the food and the room, but the "experience" is how you were treated. That human touch is just as important of a factor as to whether or not you'll go back.

    As for the products, no product "sells itself". All of the ones you've named have retail contracts and mass budgets, which creates awareness and can let you circumvent the relationship process. Yet for some reason all of those companies have Facebook pages... why do you think that is? They aren't selling their products on Facebook. It's a consumer engagement strategy. So even they, with all of their marketing budgets and retail distribution, still choose to build relationships with their customers.

    You have a lot to learn, but you're in the right place to start learning it.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimboJim
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    LOL

    As a lawyer, I find this statement hilarious. He's a lawyer, not God. His word or interpretation is not the law.
    According to this quote, he's a lawyer.

    You know, lawyers are known for being blood sucking, but the one I stayed with BUILT A RELATIONSHIP with me. I found him because he was the best, and stayed with him because he built a relationship with me.
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    That's not relationship building. That is getting people to know about their product so that when the consumers are at the store they are more likely to buy

    I mean, do I really have to spell that out for you?

    Many people in this forum need to open their eyes and realize that people buy products to satisfy a need or want, not because you tried to build some relationship with them.

    I just booked a hotel room today. Guess what? No relationship building going on. It has great amenities, a great price, and great reviews. The CEO didn't personally email building a relationship.

    It's clear there are two things going on:

    1. What you want to believe, i.e., the useless Tony Robbins/make-money-online fluff crap that spews the feel-good "you can do it!" relationship nonsense

    and

    2. Reality; i.e., why people really buy


    A relationship is an emotional or other connection between people.
    (Dictionary.com)

    The formation or an emotional connection is the result of a certain relationship between the consumer and the seller.

    You believe that the buyers care only about the products they buy, but they also care about the way they are treated, and about many other details.

    If you want to have a business you must have repeat customers who trust you, and who prefer your products or services for some reason.

    You should stop insisting on your opinion and pay attention to what intelligent and successful internet marketers are showing you.

    You are not the first one who is making a mistake and who is being corrected in a thread.

    You have to understand why everyone cares so much about building a relationship with their customers if you want to have a profitable business.

    I hope that this thread will open your eyes.







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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Stacy
    At the start of a Business, relationship, giveaways, offers are very very important. Once you in the market, you do not need to build any new relationship. Also, relationship is not needed for every business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Wow. Lots of unnecessary hostility in this thread.

      Some products and some offers don't require any sort of "relationship" to sell. Not, at least, in the "warm and fuzzy" sense. The examples the OP chose have established the most critical part of any relationship, though: Trust.

      When you buy a Pepsi, you know what you're getting. Logitech makes solid keyboards that hold up well over time. (I haven't bought any other brand in at least 8 years.) As for the restaurant... if the service is bad enough, you'll go elsewhere, no matter how good the food may be.

      No sane person will suggest that you can develop a meaningful personal relationship with every one of the tens or hundreds of thousands of people on any given list or other channel. That would be like thinking all 700 of your Facebook friends are going to drop everything on a Saturday to help you move.

      If you become familiar to them, treat your readers/visitors/prospects with respect, and deliver what you promise, people will consider doing business with you. Then it's a matter of offering them benefits that fit their desires.

      That familiarity and trust is what most people mean when they talk about relationship building within a market. It doesn't necessarily have to be "warm and fuzzy."

      I happen to like the social part of it, and getting to know my subscribers, but that's a personal preference.

      There are people out there making millions on PPC and CPA offers who never communicate with their customers at all. They have ZERO relationship with them.

      There are people running campaigns to get subscribers to email lists and running a "churn and burn" strategy. Sell until they unsubscribe. And for some, that works well. If they deliver what they promise the person when they signed up, it's a perfectly ethical system. Some folks will find it annoying, but that is, like many things, personal preference. Some people don't want the extras. Tell 'em what you've got and make 'em an offer.

      And some people develop real, if necessarily ephemeral, relationships with their subscribers or visitors, by being themselves and creating the basis for a potential bond. Those folks still ain't gonna help you move next weekend, but that's not the kind of relationship either side expects or even wants. That's way too demanding for all involved.

      This stuff all boils down to your own style.

      It's not all that black and white, and it depends - a lot - on your marketing methods and your own personality.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Wow. Lots of unnecessary hostility in this thread.
        I disagree. When a person begins a thread by insulting marketers who practice building relationships with their lists by stating that "people who are too lazy to think", that person isn't inviting people to have a discussion, he's insulting them.

        The entire tone of his post was arrogant and did not really invite anyone to have a proper discussion. But despite that, people chimed in and gave their opinions. Sure some were hostile, and rightfully so, but some were not.

        Some products and some offers don't require any sort of "relationship" to sell. Not, at least, in the "warm and fuzzy" sense. The examples the OP chose have established the most critical part of any relationship, though: Trust.

        When you buy a Pepsi, you know what you're getting. Logitech makes solid keyboards that hold up well over time. (I haven't bought any other brand in at least 8 years.) As for the restaurant... if the service is bad enough, you'll go elsewhere, no matter how good the food may be.

        No sane person will suggest that you can develop a meaningful personal relationship with every one of the tens or hundreds of thousands of people on any given list or other channel. That would be like thinking all 700 of your Facebook friends are going to drop everything on a Saturday to help you move.

        If you become familiar to them, treat your readers/visitors/prospects with respect, and deliver what you promise, people will consider doing business with you. Then it's a matter of offering them benefits that fit their desires.

        That familiarity and trust is what most people mean when they talk about relationship building within a market. It doesn't necessarily have to be "warm and fuzzy."

        I happen to like the social part of it, and getting to know my subscribers, but that's a personal preference.

        There are people out there making millions on PPC and CPA offers who never communicate with their customers at all. They have ZERO relationship with them.

        There are people running campaigns to get subscribers to email lists and running a "churn and burn" strategy. Sell until they unsubscribe. And for some, that works well. If they deliver what they promise the person when they signed up, it's a perfectly ethical system. Some folks will find it annoying, but that is, like many things, personal preference. Some people don't want the extras. Tell 'em what you've got and make 'em an offer.

        And some people develop real, if necessarily ephemeral, relationships with their subscribers or visitors, by being themselves and creating the basis for a potential bond. Those folks still ain't gonna help you move next weekend, but that's not the kind of relationship either side expects or even wants. That's way too demanding for all involved.

        This stuff all boils down to your own style.

        It's not all that black and white, and it depends - a lot - on your marketing methods and your own personality.


        Paul
        Bingo! With my dating newsletter my conversions went through the roof when I focused on building a relationship with both my readers and my customers. Having written that, there are people in that niche that choose the "churn and burn" method, and some of them are making money that way.

        Though after literally testing millions of e-mails, the relationship-building had the highest conversions. More importantly, though, I can sleep at night.

        Now, when I send paid traffic directly to offers, there is zero relationship-building there. So it depends on your style, your monetization model, and what the market will bear.

        RoD
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        - Jim Rohn
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          I disagree. When a person begins a thread by insulting marketers who practice building relationships with their lists by stating that "people who are too lazy to think", that person isn't inviting people to have a discussion, he's insulting them.

          The entire tone of his post was arrogant and did not really invite anyone to have a proper discussion. But despite that, people chimed in and gave their opinions. Sure some were hostile, and rightfully so, but some were not.



          RoD
          Quite true. More times than not, hostility breeds hostility. Or if you'd prefer an idiom ~ You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

          Any way you put it, this thread proves it.

          Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    This guy is a moron trying to get a buzz going on this thread. We all know he is full of s#@t. Best to ignore the thread and let it die.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tim,

      We don't know his intent. The point he brings up is worth discussing, no matter what his motivations. And those could be perfectly legitimate, especially if he's seen how many people try to do the "relationship" thing beyond its practical limits.


      Paul
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  • Well I know for a fact if you build a relationship with the right people then your life can change over night. We as human was meant to have relationship with others people. Does that mean you can't be successful online with out building a relationship? No of course you can. Making money is all about solving problems. Me personally, I want to build relationship with others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I've generally thought the kind of "relationship" building that takes place in email marketing is that of the list owner becoming a trusted authority, mentor, or leader.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author deebee23
    I agree with this guy 100 percent some offers are not worth building a relationship over.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taniwha
    Believe it or not, you inadvertently have a strong relationship with Splenda & Pepsi.
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  • Profile picture of the author willmfftt
    Every marketing approach requires some degree of relationship building. How many Pepsi commercials have you seen on TV or heard on the radio telling/showing you how good their product is. They show their commercials so many times that by the time you run into the product in stores you know exactly what it is and you know its good. In that way they have built trust and essentially built a relationship with you.

    You just here about building a relationship so much more in IM because most of the products being sold or advertised are digital, and you need to build more trust to sell something that someone can't hold in their hands.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheCLPro
    I give more business to business owners and service providers who have developed a relationship with me, plain and simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author kinyash
    Building relationships is the backbone of marketing. Everything else follows. Why give freebies for a list, why do products give free samples? Because you first form a relationship then everything else will follow.
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    • Profile picture of the author MatthewWoodward
      Originally Posted by kinyash View Post

      Building relationships is the backbone of marketing. Everything else follows. Why give freebies for a list, why do products give free samples? Because you first form a relationship then everything else will follow.
      Exactly!

      Although I disagree about having to give something free in order for them to commit to listening to what you have to say.

      The power of the relationship should not be underestimated - I have built a loyal fanbase that come back to my site to buy through my affiliate links time and time again.

      All because I put the relationship above anything else.

      If you get that right, the rest follows suit-

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Embracing the N.u.d.e. Model - The New Art and...Embracing the N.u.d.e. Model - The New Art and...
    Scott Degraffenfield is a mathematician turned business consultant. His model involves focusing on the relationship with the customer and adapting operations to the customer in a very systematic and mathematically measurable way. His goal is to strive for a 1 to 1 referral ratio, ie. 1 referral from every existing customer. The numbers are statistically significant to the positive. Staggering actually. This is across many industries and B to B as well as B to C.

    In some cases he has turned businesses around and has helped clients get more business than they can handle.

    Peppers and Rogers have a similar model with measurable results as well.

    Is Your Company Ready for One-to-One Marketing? - Harvard Business Review

    http://www.managingchange.com/onetoone/overview.htm

    A few years ago I read about a large company, Bath and Body I believe, that measured the value of each customer on it's email lists at around $17 USD. Meaning that each they emailed a deal, they would get about $17 average from each customer. At that time they had around 50,000 on their email lists.

    Artificial relationships - no. Genuine business/marketing relationships with customers or clients - yes.

    Dan
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Embracing the N.u.d.e. Model
      I love embracing nude models, but my wife gets on to me for it every time.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

        I love embracing nude models, but my wife gets on to me for it every time.
        Save that for the bat cave.
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    • Profile picture of the author cody123
      Without a relationship with your readers/subscribers, you have no business.

      People will buy from those they trust. They will buy from those whose work they know will provide them with massive value.

      Will you return to that restaurant because of the great meal you had on your last visit? Absolutely.

      Will you buy Pepsi or Splenda again? Definitely.

      You may not know the people behind the value, but you know what to expect next time you buy. You trust and you will return.

      That's the value of a relationship. whether in person or online.
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    • Profile picture of the author walterv
      I will not agree with you because relationship plays a great role in our life. Without relationship, life would be meaningless. And I believe that powerful people are those people who can maintain positive relationship. I can attest how relationship is very indispensable in business. SO, let's not take it for granted.
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  • Profile picture of the author livo
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    I believe that building a relationship with you list is better in the long run but there are many top Internet Marketers that do not build relationships and do rather well.

    Every day i get email after email off these guys even after i have unsubscribed from their list.So in this instance they are not building a relationship they are just p*****g
    me off.

    So i agree with you in some ways.
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    • Profile picture of the author agmccall
      Sometimes I think we might confuse building a "reputation" for ourselves with building a "relationship" with others.

      Just a thought

      al
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      ~Jack Handey~

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      • Profile picture of the author Dorian Anthony
        I agree Al. You've brought up something very important.
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        • Profile picture of the author EliteAffiliate
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

            That's not relationship building. That is getting people to know about their product so that when the consumers are at the store they are more likely to buy

            I mean, do I really have to spell that out for you?
            Ah.

            In my single days I use to go into the bar and after seeing someone of interest, I would approach them and let them get to know me that by chance they might want to go out. I'd also try to learn a bit about them too.

            In some cases this led to a long relationship.

            I agree with Paul in that there is a way to market and just skip the whole relationship thing all together (ie toss up a link in the right place at the right time.) But somewhere in the equation someone will need to be doing the relationship thing for a company to have any long term success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dorian Anthony
    You don't build a relationship unless you talk to that person over the phone or Skype. I don't go to Facebook mastermind groups to chat with other people. I go to get problems solved.

    I agree with wesd22. Most business transactions don't involve a relationship.

    When someone says relationship marketing they're talking about buying from someone you can see. I like it if the person selling me something has a photo and video testimonials, but ultimately it's all about the product and if it's going to work for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author OrangeBull
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    I have to agree with a previous poster, maybe you don't have relationships that are involved in products or services you buy, but some of us do.

    I like Ford cars. Why? Because my late father was a Ford man.

    I prefer Mountain Dew to other soft drinks. Why? Because my best friend Lenny introduced me to it after a night that brought me my first hangover as a teen.

    I don't even have to tell my barber how I like my hair cut. In fact I enjoy how my cousin jokes I'm the only person who gets a hair cut that leaves a pile of hair and looks like they still need a hair cut. Oh, yeah, my cousin is my barber.

    When I belly up to the bar my favorite bartender asks if it's a Blue Light, Captain and Coke, Beam on the Rocks, or straight cola night? Why? Because they know what I drink and what kind of mood I'm in based on what I want to drink. Unless it's dinner time, then they ask, want a menu, or do you know what you want. They also know tons of other things about me, and one of my favorite bartenders knows me well enough that they can honestly say I helped them build their house. Why? Because we are friends.

    I use Hostgator for my webhosting, and I went out of my way to make sure that a podcaster whose show I enjoy got a commission when I signed up for that webhosting. Why? Because I like their content and I have enjoyed the email conversations we have had about a topic of common interest. Hmmm, again I think a relationship was involved.

    I found my favorite sandwich place, not because of advertising, not because it was on my way somewhere and I just popped in, not because a sign made me think, hey I should try that place, but because my friend said, hey, that place over there has THE BEST sandwiches, you hungry? Yup, again, a relationship sold me.

    I will be watching a TV show later tonight that very few people watch, that is on an obscure cable channel, and that almost NO ONE is aware of, why? Because my best friend from college is one of the series regulars on the show. Hmmm, relationships strike again.

    I SPENT MORE money on a piece of comparable electronic equipment from a DIFFERENT manufacturer earlier this year because a friend said that IT WAS WORTH SPENDING $300 more to get a good one than buy a bad one from an inferior manufacturer. Hmmm, relationships, funny how they influence purchases right????
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  • Profile picture of the author nerdy88
    You already have a relationship with the product you are mentioning that's why you can name them. You know that you can trust Pepsi, that's why you aren't spending money on a fizzy drink called Yabler or something. The brand is the relationship, it is the recognition!
    You may find that you can make more money if you are more engaged with your veiwers because a relationship is important, it keeps them oming back and spending more that's why you have a favorite restaurant, bar or steakhouse!
    Everyone needs a little extra sweetness
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinChapman
    It's all about trust in my opinion, if someone feels like they know you/your brand they are more likely to buy. Hence why you by Pepsi over any old brand of Cola, because you know and trust the brand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Les Blythe
    Well, I have to say that my whole business model is based on relationship building AKA actually taking the time to talk to and help people who need it. I didn't really formulate it as a business model but over the last couple of years it has developed that way and that's just fine.

    If you are anything like me you make a mental note of the IM'rs who are obviously just in it for themselves and have no real interest in delivering real value. Think some of the super Gurus and you'll see where I'm coming from. I've personally spent over $20,000 on my online education and yes I do make my living online now.

    BUT I've made a lot of good friends along the way and that has been a huge bonus.

    Relationship building - yes, every time
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  • Thing is: we all get too many emails every day, and we're very selective with the emails we read and the ones we ignore.

    The only way to get your subscribers' attention (so they read your emails) is to engage them, to create a bond so they're looking forward your emails, and that by definition requires some relationship-building.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

      Quite true. More times than not, hostility breeds hostility. Or if you'd prefer an idiom ~ You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

      Any way you put it, this thread proves it.

      Terra
      And you catch even more flies with bullshit, as the OP proved.

      However, even bullshit is good for something.

      The OP talked about not having a relationship with the Splenda people or the Pepsi people. Probably true, at least plausible.

      The classic mistake, though, is that the OP assumed that to market Splenda or Pepsi successfully required building a relationship with the end user - guys like him who buy their Pepsi one can or bottle at a time.

      I guarantee that in order for the OP to be able to unemotionally buy that Pepsi, there was a successful building of a relationship. Just not with him.

      Odds are, if he bought that Pepsi from a convience store or other small retailer, he'd find a solid relationship between the store owner and the delivery driver for that route. Delivery drivers that make money learn to build relationships with the owners on their routes and to work at forming new ones to expand the route.

      Once that relationship is in place, the route driver is in position to profit from the purchases of both loyal customers and the one-off, just-passing-through customers. Without any relationship with the OP.

      The OP speaks some truth, although he could use a lesson in tact. He's just using that truth to support the wrong conclusion...
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        And you catch even more flies with bullshit, as the OP proved.

        However, even bullshit is good for something.
        Like nesting material for flies to lay maggots in? For overpowering the sweet spring aroma of honeysuckle and lavender on a gloriously warm day? I think something about the OP stinketh. :p

        Seriously though, he does have some valid points from his prospective. However, he seems oblivious to the fact that he would not even have any knowledge of all those products he mentioned, if it weren't for the chain of relationships involved in each of them becoming a recognized brand or establishment available for him to unknowingly have a relationship with.

        Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    The OP is being naive.

    Relationship building, from the marketing/advertising perspective, is about appealing to your needs, wants and desires.

    A brand takes the biggest benefits that the product or service can provide and communicates it in a snappy, simple name/tag - designed to immediately emotionally connect with you.

    Walmart - "Save money. Live better." Bam! They've immedaitely initiated a relationship with their target demo. And their customers are participating in that relationship - whether they're aware of it or not; whether they like it... or not.

    You did the same thing when you purchased that Logitech keyboard. You recognized the brand name, felt drawn in by the trust their reputation creates and purchased, albeit soley for utilitarian needs, but went with them for subconscious reasons you're simply failing to acknowledge.

    Same with Splenda.

    You're participating in these relationships because their brand name, reputation and placement (or availability, like in the restaurant) connects with your needs - no matter how fundamental they are.

    Yes...

    Businesses/brands can take their relationships into a more intimate space - like with email marketing.

    But when ANY company's brand, online or off, connects with your needs, wants and/or desires on some level, you've just entered the conversation they started, for you...

    ...and that my friend is how relationships begin.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Rod,
      I disagree. When a person begins a thread by [snip of reasonable summary]
      I didn't say it wasn't provoked, or possibly even warranted. Just that it wasn't necessary. I'm not shy about snark (or even rudeness) when it's productive, but I don't see that happening here.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Rod,I didn't say it wasn't provoked, or possibly even warranted. Just that it wasn't necessary. I'm not shy about snark (or even rudeness) when it's productive, but I don't see that happening here.


        Paul
        Paul, I understand that, but I am still going to disagree. When a person starts a thread off by insulting a certain type of marketer it is definitely warranted (and necessary sometimes).

        RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author ashloren
    As someone already made reference to the mention of statistics class and the use of phrases such as "strawmen" leads me to believe we have some sort of philosophy major on our hands here.

    No offense dude, but unless you have something to share that can offer us a real life example of how this is true FOR YOUR BUSINESS, then how meaningful is this thread...? I mean beyond the fact that you are detached from your own beverages and the hotels that you stay at...we get that at this point.

    Prove the truth behind what you are saying with some hard, objective data from your business and maybe some people here will take you seriously. But maybe not, as I don't believe you are right.

    Just because Tony Robbins spews warm fuzzy shit doesn't mean everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about when they put emphasis on relationships. If you have some beef with Mr. Robbins, why not take it up with him? I'm sure he cares even more than anyone here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    Its different online bro! you should know that already.

    You can still make some money with no relationship if you hate it so much you know.
    However I will make MORE money than you with decent a list of people who, know,like and trust me. Same with Amazon, eBay, Facebook---->> Brands= Relationships=Trust= More $$

    P.S. You can't compare your "Online eBook/YouTube stuff" to multimillion dollar corporations. These corporations have established their brands,you have even mentioned their brands yourself and that's because you are familiar with them. You grew up watching your mama buying you Pepsi how is that for an endorsement?
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Anton
      Do you think 95% of the general stores that went out of business from Walmart never built a "relationship" with their customers? (strong Adult language)
      Louis CK on Consumers and Capitalism (part 1/3) - YouTube

      You are only relevant/important if you are of value to someone, and as soon as your not, you're obsolete.

      "
      ...Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you..."
      Machiavelli, The Prince

      No one should be offended that these are business transactions. Don't confuse social proof, and group animal instinct for a relationship. It's certainly a reputation as
      agmccall stated. It would take more social capital and committment to go against what others have already proven to be good and effective, i.e. taking the road less travelled (the generic soda brand for instance). This doesn't mean you have to be unfriendly, anti social, or rude to clients, but it does mean it's a mutual relationship of added value based on transactions.

      "Insert hot woman here" growing up didn't have a relationship with me, yet I sure watched all her movies. As soon as she got older, and I did as well, I stopped caring about her movies. My reasoning for our "relationship" had run its course.

      Thanksfully Machiavelli was right, people are fickle otherwise there would never be new business opportunities since everyone would already be entrenched. Create the best product/service you can and let the people decide if they want it. No amount of smiling, juggling, or "bro" talk is going to save your company, and if it is, it's not a real business and you need to relook at the value you are offering. Women looking for sugar daddies rely on a smile for their business; while it certainly helps to go the extra mile and I appreciate all my clients, no one is paying me for my sexy bald head , just results.
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  • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
    Wow! You certainly did a lot today.

    I just booked a hotel room today. Guess what? No relationship building going on.
    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.
    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me.
    I'm typing this on Chrome btw- a browser that didn't "build a relationship" with me.
    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.
    I guess it must be a sugar high from that Pepsi you had last night.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.
    There are different types of marketing in which relationship building is one aspect of, so don't try to persuade those of us who use this type of marketing.

    Tweek it, modify it, change it up but don't re-invent it.
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  • Profile picture of the author briankno
    I have to disagree with the OP. I think you do have a relationship with all those products, and those products brand in a way so you choose their product over another. Whether its the quality, functionality, or features they are creating something for you. Also you may buy something without a relationship but don't think that you will keep buying unless the product maker shows credibility and knowledge. Interesting topic!
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  • Profile picture of the author rleejr
    This is an interesting topic. I see your point, and I think it all boils down to how you define "relationship."

    You don't necessarily love Splenda, coffee, or the restaurant where you ate. It just happened to be the nearest place or the only soda you can get at the moment. Thus, you are saying that you do not have a relationship with them.

    I'd like to ask though. Had there been coke and pepsi, which would you choose? If the waiter at the restaurant was extremely annoying, would you still eat there? If your ice tea is mixed with sugar, would you drink it, or would you make another one with Splenda? I think you know where I am getting at.

    Building a relationship is important because it is easier to keep old customers than find new ones.

    Now let me get a can of Pepsi cause I just so love it.
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  • Profile picture of the author movemaker
    I disagree with you 1000%.

    When it comes to Online Marketing you have to build some form of trust for a person to shell out money. PERIOD!

    If your not building trust and adding value your business experience will be very bumpy.

    What you are saying does play into effect but not apart from building trust and adding value. But if you build a business solely off of that then you will have a ton of refunds for sure!
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    this thread is epic fail on many levels.

    it's ALL About your relationship and trust with your customers.

    If you're selling commodities, like cans of soda, or crappy ebooks nobody wants, then no. If you're serious about building a business, however it's ALL about your relationship with your list.

    I have over 2,000 people registered for my weekly Saturday webinars (and do very high sales) because I've built a relationship with them. I'm a top-rated award winning producer in my niche because I have a relationship with my list. I listen, I care, I respond, I build, I train... it's all about the relationship.

    Hey Jeff or Frank or Eben or Brendan one of you guys feel free to chime in...
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.
    If you don't like what's on the forum, there's a Log Out button at the top right
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Rod,
      Paul, I understand that, but I am still going to disagree. When a person starts a thread off by insulting a certain type of marketer it is definitely warranted (and necessary sometimes).
      For the sake of argument, let's assume you and the others who think the guy is a troll are right. Which response is more productive:

      1: Taking offense to a generic statement and getting hostile, or

      2: Responding to the actual content of the post and clarifying the issue for the other folks who are reading?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        1: Taking offense to a generic statement and getting hostile
        Tried but no effect.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        2: Responding to the actual content of the post and clarifying the issue for the other folks who are reading?
        Tried but no effect.


        3: Make mental note to remove OP from Warrior Christmas card list.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          HD,
          Tried but no effect.
          Unsurprising.
          Tried but no effect.
          Are you sure? You don't think anyone else reading this will have a better understanding of the question than they did before they opened the thread?


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Ning Lo
    Good point but your missing something..

    In the offline world companies spend millions to build a brand.. And branding = relationship

    I like to go to the same restaurants, stores, clubs most of the times. The reason is that i have a good relationship with the employees there..

    Cheers,

    Gary
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    Sorry, but it's a really silly post.

    How many of you go back to the same doctor over and over again?

    Do you get your haircut at the same barber each time?

    How many of you go to the same dentist?

    How many of you have been using the same mechanic for years and years?

    Why? Relationships.

    They are just a very small number of examples that prove your theory wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author robo916
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Sorry, but it's a really silly post.

      How many of you go back to the same doctor over and over again?

      Do you get your haircut at the same barber each time?

      How many of you go to the same dentist?

      How many of you have been using the same mechanic for years and years?

      Why? Relationships.

      They are just a very small number of examples that prove your theory wrong.
      Exactly. This guy is trolling or something I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long. A relationship in business is built for one reason: "TRUST". You gain trust through a relationship. That is why you relationship build....it's simple. Once you gain that trust....all you have to do is maintain it.

      That is of course if you plan on staying in business for a long time. That is why a repeat customer is much MUCH easier to keep than a new customer is to get. RELATIONSHIP and TRUST. Come on guys... this isn't even a debate.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.

    "I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I."

    Actually there is. The sweetness in Splenda releases pleasure hormones in your brain.


    "I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located."

    First of all if they did the opposite of building a relationship...treated you like
    crap as soon as you walked through the door...it's unlikely you'd go back.

    So while you might not see it as relationship building being pleasant and polite
    to people is the first step.

    Also how often do you go to this restaurant?

    A smart restaurant would capture your contact details and send you a thank you note, a gift meal on your birthday, a voucher for free coffee or dessert with time limits all designed to make you a loyal customer because you feel like you're appreciated there.

    And to get you to come in more often which can worth a substantial amount in
    extra profits for a business.

    On top of that they could also make it very easy for you to recommend friends
    to the restaurant (for example a free dessert or coffee voucher you can give
    to your friends).

    So by building a relationship giving you various gifts and showing you appreciation
    they're also directly building their business in multiple ways.


    "The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship."

    Again pleasure centres in your brain. Also someone should mention that your
    diet may not be so great lol.



    "The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship."

    But where did you buy it from? Why do you go to that particular store?

    At the very least you don't have people swearing at you and insulting
    you when you walk into the store. Basic politeness is relationship building.


    "People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them."

    Actually a HUGE part of the decision is who is making them the offer and
    whether they trust them.

    That's why getting a marketer with a list who has taken the time to build some
    real trust with his subscribers to offer you product to that list is so powerful.

    I can tell you as a copywriter involved in split testing different lists that the
    guys who are going out of their way to really look after their lists with quality
    content and relationship building are getting many times the response rates
    of those who don't build relationships with their subscribers.

    People buy from the people they trust and they're very wary of offers from
    people they don't know (no relationship) or people they don't trust (bad
    relationship).


    You certainly can make money without building relationships but in most
    cases there's more money to be made by putting in the effort to think
    through how building relationships of trust with your subscribers, prospects
    and clients can help you to build a better business with more sales,
    higher priced sales, more referrals etc etc.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author mialove
    You have a lot of great responses here.

    Let me give you a personal example.
    Me and my hubby likes to go abroad time to time. We looking for a nice hotel/apartment , read the reviews, look at the pictures and choose the one we like the most.
    Now, where is the catch ?
    There is a lot of sites that offer the same apartments. (they get a %, if you use there link).
    I sign up on a few of those sites list, and guess who i choose i the and?
    The one that gave the most value to there subscribes, the one who build the relation ship, answer all my questions and gave me great information.
    And now, when i need to find an apartment, i am not even checking the other sites, i just use the site i trust and used in the past.
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  • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
    You've got to understand that the majority of the advice given in this forum is just a bunch of regurgitated information that many have accepted as fact because it's been said so many times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.

    One of the best advice ever on Warrior Forum...

    If you are good at what you do, people will come to you rather than you go to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think
    ... and if they believe this load of crap, they will fall into the category you described. None of the brands that you described attempt to sell you their products via an email list, which is a whole lot different than the type of offline vendors you are talking about. Those companies spend millions on building a recognizable and trusted brand (trust, I believe falls into the category of relationship building). And if your local gas station or favorite restaurant is worth it's salt, they do build relationships. They recognize their regular customers, go out of their way to acknowledge them when they visit, often remember their names, their children's names, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

      So all these people here don't care what their product is, all they want is a "good" relationship which they can use to brainwash/fool people and persuade "people" to buy their products. So the ultimate aim of building that "relationship" here is to get into their wallet, and not into their hearts, which to me is "unethical" to do. I will never build a relationship with someone just to sell my product to them heh.
      Building relationships online with prospects or existing customers is not the same as building relationships offline with real people. You aren't looking for an online girl or boyfriend are you? You don't hope to meet your BFF here, do you? It's not likely that a marketer is trying to "get into your heart". They are trying to build trust and hopefully sell you some products as a result. If that is unethical to you, you are definitely in the wrong forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrick
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Building relationships online with prospects or existing customers is not the same as building relationships offline with real people. You aren't looking for an online girl or boyfriend are you? You don't hope to meet your BFF here, do you? It's not likely that a marketer is trying to "get into your heart". They are trying to build trust and hopefully sell you some products as a result. If that is unethical to you, you are definitely in the wrong forum.
        lol. "getting into heart" doesn't always mean bf/gf. I love my family, friends and clients also !

        They are trying to build trust and hopefully sell you some products as a result. If that is unethical to you, you are definitely in the wrong forum.
        here it is...the ultimate aim is not to win friends but to win their wallet....

        If I am in the wrong or right forum, doesn't matter. I am here only to help people, this is what I do in my free time.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

          lol. "getting into heart" doesn't always mean bf/gf. I love my family, friends and clients also !

          here it is...the ultimate aim is not to win friends but to win their wallet....

          If I am in the wrong or right forum, doesn't matter. I am here only to help people, this is what I do in my free time.
          Yep, you're right. This isn't a "friend contest." It's a marketing forum for people who have online and offline businesses or for people who want to learn to have offline or online businesses and some people who just want to make some money somehow.

          I have made a number of friends here, both customers and other marketers, but that wasn't my goal for signing up and reading and participating here. My goal was to learn more about Internet marketing.

          According to your philosophy, selling anything is unethical, because ALL selling is an attempt to get into someone's wallet in exchange for goods or services.

          If you're just here for the friends, hope you find them. I'm here to make money and making a few friends has been a nice benefit while pursuing my business goals.

          Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

          I am here only to help people, this is what I do in my free time.
          If that were absolutely true, you would not have an advertisement for your services in your signature.
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          • Profile picture of the author munaworks
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Yep, you're right. This isn't a "friend contest." It's a marketing forum for people who have online and offline businesses or for people who want to learn to have offline or online businesses and some people who just want to make some money somehow.

            I have made a number of friends here, both customers and other marketers, but that wasn't my goal for signing up and reading and participating here. My goal was to learn more about Internet marketing.

            According to your philosophy, selling anything is unethical, because ALL selling is an attempt to get into someone's wallet in exchange for goods or services.

            If you're just here for the friends, hope you find them. I'm here to make money and making a few friends has been a nice benefit while pursuing my business goals.
            I think he is referring to the apparent imbalance of quality many Internet Marketers, particularly in the MMO niche, provide to their lists in exchange for money.
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          • Profile picture of the author Patrick
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            If that were absolutely true, you would not have an advertisement for your services in your signature.
            Ok I am not going to argue with you all day about life and philosophy.

            About my signature, It doesn't state anywhere that I am looking for work. It does not have flashy "self boasting" text about myself that I am an "expert" or "click here to get push money" and those kind of stuff ..also you can read my previous posts also...Even if I don't have that site up, I don't care.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve B
    The products you've mentioned are mostly physical consumable items and huge companies like Pepsi spend millions on their advertising and branding every month.

    They have been developing a relationship with you every time you see or hear one of their ads and/or buy one of their products.

    You don't have millions to spend on branding your company or name in your Internet business. But you do have the opportunity to reach out to prospects, one by one, with an email or a newsletter, or a freebie of value which can build trust in what you are offering.

    You're in a relationship with all the service and product owners you spend money on . . . we all are . . . but often we don't recognize the fact that we are spending money on them as a result of their reaching out to us first and sometimes often.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeMack
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.

    You are comparing apples to oranges. There are various types of purchases. Everything from buying a pack of gum to buying a home. It is incredibly naive to group them all together. Some buying decisions require little emotion. Others, such as purchasing a home, are much more involved emotionally.

    I can tell from your post that you have never been a salesman. You should. Lots of great lessons to be learned there.

    JoeMack
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Thomas
    You really don't represent 100% of the marketing.
    You don't form a relationship with Pepsi or a restaurant.
    You DO form habits. What are relationships if not habits, after the initial period?
    You get effective response, depend on it being there. If you're used to Pepsi, tomorrow your shop fails to have it, has Coke waiting there, that's enough to "break a relationship".
    It's about being present there, all the time, nothing active.

    You may pet your dog once a day, but it's there all day long, JUST FOR THAT!

    That's the gist of it - be there when your client needs you, doesn't have to be personal.
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  • Profile picture of the author munaworks
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    Spot on!

    It's just a shame that a lot of members on the WF are so rooted in their beliefs (almost religiously) they are unable to see past marketing fluff that they have been sold by the "Gurus" before them.

    It is pretty plain to see that the OP has a very excellent point here.

    As much as there is an element of personal connection that in many cases will help in converting leads to buyers in low-trust markets and niches, such as the Make-Money-Online niche.

    The truth is that the vast majority of sensible adults who make decisions on products to buy, from reasonable to high trust markets such as Groceries, Apparels, Electronics, Video Games or even Home Insurance do so mainly on the merits/qualities of the product and the REPUTATION of the seller.

    It is the observation of an individual's or company's reputation that many refer to (somewhat incorrectly) as a relationship.

    To term one's trust in a product having certain desirable characteristics and serving a particular purpose in the way you envision, as a relationship rather than a reputation is really a poor understanding of language and nothing more sinister.

    Not to make this an essay, but when you blast emails to your mailing lists in an effort to build trust, you are in fact building a relationship by virtue of sustained communication. This is especially strong if there is a two-way conversation taking place. However it is unlikely that your list are buying from you due to this relationship. What I suppose is really happening from a psychological standpoint is that you are establishing a reputation as a provider of valuable information that makes a positive difference in their lives.

    This is also where the question of ethics rears it head. If this reputation is being established falsely, by means of providing information that on the face of it seems to be beneficial but is actually a well constructed smoke screen, which is actually totally impractical and deceitful then you are of course being unethical.

    To end this lengthy reply. The OP has a solid point, try not to believe the marketing fluff that gets thrown around as gospel truth and learn to question the norm. In doing so you can only improve your understanding.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    A business establishes and improves it's reputation, products and/or services based upon it's interaction with it's market. Interaction is really the same as relationship.

    No interaction = no business.

    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author munaworks
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      A business establishes and improves it's reputation, products and/or services based upon it's interaction with it's market. Interaction is really the same as relationship.

      No interaction = no business.

      Dan
      Interaction is REALLY not the same as relationship.

      It may be to you, but interaction and relationship do not even share the same meaning. You don't need to build a relationship in order to have a number of interactions with something or someone.

      We must move away from this everything is a relationship thing, because if we continue it we will soon have no use for the word relationship.

      Remember that everything on the planet (and galaxy) is in someway related either indirectly or directly, so this does not mean too much.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Patrick,
      So all these people here don't care what their product is, all they want is a "good" relationship which they can use to brainwash/fool people and persuade "people" to buy their products. So the ultimate aim of building that "relationship" here is to get into their wallet, and not into their hearts, which to me is "unethical" to do. I will never build a relationship with someone just to sell my product to them heh.
      Depends on what kind of relationship you're talking about.

      If I go into a restaurant and get good service the first time, it is usually a matter of two relationships. The one the server has with their employer, which they hope to continue in order to keep getting paid, and the one they are trying to establish with me, in order to get a better tip and a more pleasant customer.

      Both are money-focused, at least to some extent, and both are entirely appropriate and ethical.

      There are customary expectations in any relationship. Some of those involve financial considerations. As long as you don't abuse the relationship in a deceptive way, and you're clear on what's involved from the beginning, it's no more an ethical issue than when a waitress asked me yesterday if I wanted dessert.

      I was there to buy food. She offered me more food. The fact that she and I have had long conversations when the restaurant wasn't busy doesn't play into it. That's a separate, social, aspect of the interaction.

      Making blanket statements like the one quoted above isn't a helpful addition to the conversation. To say that people don't care about their customers or the quality of their products just because they interact with their customers with commercial intent is just silly.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrick
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Making blanket statements like the one quoted above isn't a helpful addition to the conversation. To say that people don't care about their customers or the quality of their products just because they interact with their customers with commercial intent is just silly.
        I don't get why in this forum if you don't agree with what "most" people say or if you have a different way of doing business, then people start the name calling and using words like silly and stuff. :rolleyes:

        Also, the waiter who got food for you, got it coz it was HER job. If she was not employed there, she won't care even whether you will get the coffee or not. The tip that you give is from your side, you PAY it when you are completely satisfied with their service and the food. And also if you don't pay her, she won't care.

        And that's how business is (atleast to me) if you make the customers happy, they will keep you in mind always.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Easy Patrick.

          Paul did not call you a name. He didn't call you silly. Take a look at this again and read it carefully.

          To say that people don't care about their customers or the quality of their products just because they interact with their customers with commercial intent is just silly.
          He said that what you said was silly. There is a big difference just like telling a child their action was bad as opposed to calling them bad.

          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author robo916
            I'm sorry, I thought we were all here to make money? If anyone thinks it's unethical to provide a service or some other value to a customer with the intention of profiting from it, then you might as well close down every business in the world because the last time I checked, they are all trying to make money from their customers.

            Relationship building is just a means to accomplish this. You provide a service, information or whatever....and you profit from it. You get what you want, your customer gets what they want. It's a "win-win"

            If you want to instead be the mother teresa of Internet Marketing and are just "here to help people with no intention of making money from them"...I don't know what to tell you.....maybe start a charity or a non-profit or something... :confused:
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            • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
              Originally Posted by robo916 View Post

              I'm sorry, I thought we were all here to make money? If anyone thinks it's unethical to provide a service or some other value to a customer with the intention of profiting from it, then you might as well close down every business in the world because the last time I checked, they are all trying to make money from their customers.

              Relationship building is just a means to accomplish this. You provide a service, information or whatever....and you profit from it. You get what you want, your customer gets what they want. It's a "win-win"

              If you want to instead be the mother teresa of Internet Marketing and are just "here to help people with no intention of making money from them"...I don't know what to tell you.....maybe start a charity or a non-profit or something... :confused:
              That's right.....
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            • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
              Originally Posted by robo916 View Post

              If you want to instead be the mother teresa of Internet Marketing and are just "here to help people with no intention of making money from them"...I don't know what to tell you.....maybe start a charity or a non-profit or something... :confused:
              robo916,

              Very true...

              It reminds of a recent interaction with a WF member......

              He was angry because I was "trying to sell something."

              He went on to write...

              "The purpose of WF is to help people."
              :rolleyes:

              I literally fell off my chair... I was laughing so hard...

              I wrote back... I tried to be nice....

              I wrote, "I don't know what forum you are on, my friend... But, 99.999% of the people on WF are looking to sell something."

              I hated to be the one to break the news... It was like telling a child there is no Santa Claus...

              All The Best,

              Rich Beck BCIP, MCSD, MCIS
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

                As for the term "relationship" as it is used in this forum, I have yet to wrap my mind around it.
                Probably because som many people use it to mean different things. M Thompson, in the second part of his post quoted below, comes very close to what I mean when I use the expression.

                Too many people hear "build a relationship", "talk like you would to your best friend" and "build up the know, like and trust", and assume that each member of a list has to consider youu their bestest buddy.

                Originally Posted by Mystery Man View Post

                Also, for all those who are absolutely staking their name on the fact that the 'relationship' is everything, can you explain, as someone else has already asked, why all those old independent, local stores are going out of business against the mega stores, if 'relationship' is so important to the consumer?

                The majority of consumers care about PRICE and CONVENIENCE only... "What's in it for me?" attitude... As soon as the mega stores came to town, the local stores were toast... Didn't seem to matter how great their relationships were with customers...
                Maybe so, but when you get down to the short rows and price/convenience aren't great enough to influence an outcome, having a prior relationship - even if it's just a history of providing pointers to worthwhile products and skipping the crap - can make the difference.

                Of course, if you screw it up, you also "build a relationship" but not in a good way. There are more than a few marketers/businesses, both online and off, which have soured me on ever doing business with them regardless of the price/convenience.

                Originally Posted by M Thompson View Post

                I've lost count of the times I've read

                "build a relationship with your subscribers in the first 5-7 emails and get them to know Like and trust you...."

                Hogwash!

                I've known people for years who I still don't particularly like or trust. It's arrogance to think that you can get people to know like and trust you via a short email sequence.
                You aren't going to build a connection with everybody who joins your list in that first 5-7 emails. If your targeting, setup and initial offer are right, you will connect with some of your new subscribers in that first 5-7 emails.

                If it weren't for "instant connections", half the wedding chapels in Las Vegas would have to close their doors. :p

                Originally Posted by M Thompson View Post

                You can't build trust you have to earn it and you do that by consistently delivering on your promises to your subscribers.

                Let your subscribers and customers get to know you and after a while they may like you... they then might get to trust you.
                This I agree with. However, that first 5-7 emails can have a big influence on list members' expectations. Set those expectations, then meet them consistently. If I have to settle for two out of three, I'll take know and trust every time.
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          • Profile picture of the author Patrick
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            Easy Patrick.
            heh. Am easy as a windmill Miss TerraK. Who is anybody here to judge what a person says. Something which can be funny to me might not be funny to you. Something which might be good to be might not be good to be.

            If I agree with you, means I am good ? If not, then what I say is silly ? heh.

            Another name calling post is right above lol
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

              heh. Am as easy as a windmill Miss TerraK. Who is anybody here to judge what a person says. Something which can be funny to me might not be funny to you. Something which might be good to be might not be good to be.

              If I agree with you, means I am good ? If not, then what I say is silly ? heh.
              Naw, if you disagree with me, it just means we have different opinions and I won't say that what you said was silly unless of course, I think it is.

              If you agree with me, it doesn't mean you are good, it just means we are on the same page.

              Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author Patrick
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                If you agree with me, it doesn't mean you are good, it just means we are on the same page.
                lol of course good as in not "better".

                And even if you call me silly, I will put you in my favorite's list and still be ready to help whenever you want ( we had this conversation the other day in some thread here )
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

                  lol of course good as in not "better".

                  And even if you call me silly, I will put you in my favorite's list and still be ready to help whenever you want ( we had this conversation the other day in some thread here )
                  Wait! I won't call you silly, just what you said if I indeed think it is silly.

                  And yes, I still remember your kind offer and still think you are a sweetheart for offering although I am still set. But again, thank you!

                  Terra
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Patrick,
                    I don't get why in this forum if you don't agree with what "most" people say or if you have a different way of doing business, then people start the name calling and using words like silly and stuff.
                    Did you actually read the preceding posts? If so, you'll see where that's not accurate, at least as far as my comments are concerned.

                    The statement you made is overly broad, demonstrably inaccurate, and uses language that appears designed to insult anyone who doesn't specifically agree with your position. I consider that sort of statement to be silly.

                    Contrast that with your word choices:

                    all these people here don't care what their product is
                    relationship which they can use to brainwash/fool people
                    which to me is "unethical"


                    Which would you say would generally be considered stronger and more inflammatory language?


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                    • Profile picture of the author Patrick
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Which would you say would generally be considered stronger and more inflammatory language?
                      Paul, just so that no one gets offended, I have deleted that post, but my intention was not to offend anyone at all. What would I get out of it ? Nothing. Deleted my signature also (someone pointed out its "advertising" even though there was nothing just two words related to what I do)
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Patrick,

                        The question isn't whether anyone is personally offended by generic comments. It's which positions are valid under what circumstances, and which are based on flawed assumptions.

                        As far as your signature, I didn't see anything in your posts that could even remotely be construed as promotional, and you clearly weren't posting for sig exposure. There was no problem with it being there.


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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Patrick,

                          The question isn't whether anyone is personally offended by generic comments. It's which positions are valid under what circumstances, and which are based on flawed assumptions.

                          As far as your signature, I didn't see anything in your posts that could even remotely be construed as promotional, and you clearly weren't posting for sig exposure. There was no problem with it being there.


                          Paul
                          He's making reference to my post in response to his nobody cares about their products we're all just here to brainwash people to get into their wallets post.

                          Not really casting aspersions on his signature, except that having one does imply that you are attempting to make money. The site is links to is a commercial site. His services aren't free.

                          ... and yet somehow, we're here to pick the pockets of poor unsuspecting, brainwashed fools rather than working hard to provide people with quality products and services. Rather inflammatory words for someone who just wants to "get in your heart". :rolleyes:


                          Quote:
                          I am here only to help people, this is what I do in my free time.
                          And I said:
                          If that were absolutely true, you would not have an advertisement for your services in your signature.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Patrick
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            Not really casting aspersions on his signature, except that having one does imply that you are attempting to make money. The site is links to is a commercial site. His services aren't free.
                            Hopefully these links or threads will enlighten you that my intention of creating a "simple"signature was not related to making money....These are of just the last one week. Ask them if I ever talked about money or anything.

                            http://www.warriorforum.com/website-...ction-url.html
                            http://www.warriorforum.com/website-...-php-help.html
                            http://www.warriorforum.com/website-...wordpress.html

                            I did those things not coz I am some fallen angel on earth, but coz those tasks were easy to me and maybe if they had asked someone else to help, they would have fooled them and prolly make a few 3 digit $$$ over a simple thing.. If you ever need WP help, let me know.....:rolleyes:
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Patrick View Post

                              These are of just the last one week. Ask them if I ever talked about money or anything.

                              I did those things not coz I am some fallen angel on earth, but coz those tasks were easy to me and maybe if they had asked someone else to help, they would have fooled them and prolly make a few 3 digit $$$ over a simple thing.. If you ever need WP help, let me know.....:rolleyes:
                              Good that you didn't talk about money or your signature because that would have been self promotional and most likely deleted by a mod.

                              You are not alone by any stretch of the imagination in posting helpful posts in this forum and in doing thing for others without financial compensation. There are people here who have been giving value to this forum for years without setting out a tin can for spare change in return for their advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    I used to think the same way as the OP.

    It's not as black and white as he or she is making it out to be though.

    Some products do not require it, others do. There are always more then one way to do things too.

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  • Profile picture of the author MusicMinCoach
    Let me preface my comments here by saying I'm one of the new guys and still learning. Two things I get from reading the thread so far are:

    1. Hostility breeds hostility.

    There is a lot of it in this thread because of the hostile nature of the OP to insult the whole forum for one, and then individual responders. Productive discussions happen when everyone involved can manage to state their points and opinions; controversial ones, without unnecessary antagonism or attacks.

    2. I think there are two differences in the way the word "relationship" is being defined here. The terms warm and fuzzy are terms I think of when I think of people I know personally and have feelings for. Friends, family, etc.

    I think the relationship building marketers refer to speaks more to familiarity and trust. When I go to a restaurant I go there because I trust them. I know what I'm going to get, and I know the food wlll be good. The restaurant didn't make friends with me or e-mail me regularly with great recipes, etc. But they got me to the point of the first purchase by building familiarity somehow. Could have been ads on tv, word-of-mouth, whatever.

    But once I made the first purchase and liked it, the "relationship moved from familiarity that made me purchase to trust that made me go back. That's the relationship as I see it.

    Comparing that kind of purchase/relationship with the whole list-building thing, I had an interesting example just yesterday. It was my birthday so I had a big one day birthday sale. I have a pretty decent following on my fan page, and they're active and engaged.

    I also have a list that is just approaching 900. In both places I post regular blogs twice a week. On the fan page I post once or twice a day. The list hears from me twice a week on blog day. Yet when I launched this sale, almost all of the sales I made came from the people on my list. Hardly any from the fan page, and I thought I had a pretty good "relationship" with them. Only about 850 or so people on my list saw the sale but a couple thousand saw it on facebook. But the difference is that every single person on my list got there got a free 5 day video vocal training course when they joined. Most people on the fan page haven't had this familiarity and trust with what I do, so the list responded to the tune of a couple hundred bucks in a few hours, while the fan page people "liked" the post and kept going.

    So the kind of "relationship building" I think people mean when they talk about it's importance in marketing is trust and familiarity. None of us are going out and buying a soda from a brand new source every time. We buy from the brands we know and trust, and that to me is a form of relationship that the brand has built with me in some way, even if it wasn't by e-mailing me content on a regular basis. But I don't get that confused with the kind of relationship I have with a personal friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author karlmay1980
    I feel you're missing something here...

    You say everything you mentioned never built some sort of relationship with you and you still bought the products?

    Do you think they got them into the market place and in front of you without building any form of relationship with distributors and retailers?

    Do you really say you have no relationship with these retailers either and that they dont do their best to serve you with the best quality products, services and value every time you shop there but you still use their store?

    Do you think promotions, advertisements and word of mouth about these products have never influenced your decision to use them?

    This is all part of the relationship building of which businesses are built on.

    If I walk into my usual supermarket and there is a nice big stand advertising a new line of coffee with 75% off, do you not think this is them using their influence over me, as I know they sell items of a certain standard so it must be good, just so they can build a relationship between me and that brand so I will go back for more?

    It will be full price next time but they know if I like it more than the usual I will keep coming back, and I then have more choice to choose from.

    Do you think the producer of the Coffee wont of been bending over backwards to get it into these stores probably working at a huge loss on the original order?

    I may be wrong, your world may be unique but this is how it works in my world and my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author onlineworker11
    I believe in relationship marketing,its important to let the prospect get to know you and vice versa. If they like you,they are more eager to listen to what you have to say or what you are promoting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post


    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.
    Sounds like you just need a great big hug.


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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    With our semantics and language, the word "expectation" might be substituted and provide some clarity.

    When you expect something, and it happens, it creates a pattern in the mind.

    Also, when society expects you to follow the law, it's pretty tough to act outside those boundaries.

    When a marketer instills an expectation of them in your mind, and they meet it time and time again, it creates a pattern and a brand.

    As for the term "relationship" as it is used in this forum, I have yet to wrap my mind around it.
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  • Profile picture of the author cjalvarez91
    I think even offline on regular business it is important to build a relationship with your desire customer, even I can get picky with the gas station I go to, if the employee is friendly or gives good support. Is a big different when you go to a X gas station with a cashier who has a bulldog face to a friendly cashier who asks you how you are doing and tells you to have a nice day.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mystery Man
      The guy's original post was intentionally provocative.

      But I think there is a lot of truth in what he was saying.

      This 'relationship' stuff has just been repeated over and over again, so much so that it doesn't even mean anything any more.

      Also, for all those who are absolutely staking their name on the fact that the 'relationship' is everything, can you explain, as someone else has already asked, why all those old independent, local stores are going out of business against the mega stores, if 'relationship' is so important to the consumer?

      The majority of consumers care about PRICE and CONVENIENCE only... "What's in it for me?" attitude... As soon as the mega stores came to town, the local stores were toast... Didn't seem to matter how great their relationships were with customers...
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      • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
        I thought this thread had died a natural death but it's back....

        The word relationship is thrown around in these types of discussions with little thought about what it means.

        What is a relationship with your subscribers? anyone want to quantify it?

        I've lost count of the times I've read

        "build a relationship with your subscribers in the first 5-7 emails and get them to know Like and trust you...."

        Hogwash!

        I've known people for years who I still don't particularly like or trust. It's arrogance to think that you can get people to know like and trust you via a short email sequence.

        You can't build trust you have to earn it and you do that by consistently delivering on your promises to your subscribers.

        Let your subscribers and customers get to know you and after a while they may like you... they then might get to trust you.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimmyvanilla
    In my main business model (affiliate email marketing) I'm successful because of the trust my subscribers place in me.

    If they didn't trust me...

    If I let them down...

    They would stop opening my emails...

    They would unsubscribe...

    And I would earn less commissions.

    I don't know my subscribers personally, but I go to great lengths to make sure they know me and know they can trust me.

    Some of my subscribers know exactly what they want and when I put it in front of them they jump on it.

    I accept that it's not entirely because of 'me' being involved in the transaction.

    But a lot of the people I write to everyday don't really know what they want.

    They come to me 'dazed and confused' and subscribe because I promise I can help them.

    They then invest a little trust in me...

    They test me out to see if I'm the real deal...

    As I deliver on my promises, they trust me a little more...

    The relationship of trust I develop with my list means that when I recommend a product they are likely to accept my recommendation.

    They try the product...

    It delivers what I promise...

    They trust me a little more...

    The better the relationship of trust, the more they buy from my recommendations...

    And they sometimes add their own testimonial to my trustworthiness.

    I can't see how taking the relationship out of this equation is going to bring me the same results as I currently achieve.

    I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Victor Edson
    Just because Splenda didn't build a relationship with YOU, doesn't mean they didn't build a relationship with a distributor.

    How'd you find out about that Logitech keyboard? I'm sure it isn't some knock off brand you've never heard of is it? Are you unaware of the branding of Pepsi you've been brainwashed with your entire life?

    Just because you aren't aware of things, doesn't mean they don't exist.

    If you're not focused on your customers and you don't give a crap about them, I could only assume you're a baby boomer, no?
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    • Profile picture of the author johnny604
      Originally Posted by Victor Edson View Post

      Just because Splenda didn't build a relationship with YOU, doesn't mean they didn't build a relationship with a distributor.

      How'd you find out about that Logitech keyboard? I'm sure it isn't some knock off brand you've never heard of is it? Are you unaware of the branding of Pepsi you've been brainwashed with your entire life?

      Just because you aren't aware of things, doesn't mean they don't exist.

      If you're not focused on your customers and you don't give a crap about them, I could only assume you're a baby boomer, no?
      Great point. Relationship building is a huge part of the supply chain, and getting the product in front of your face. Even if you, the end user, doesn't see it.

      And the branding, or "pre-framing" done by the manufacturer IS RELATIONSHIP BUILDING. it hugely influences your decision without you noticing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Newbieee
    Originally Posted by wesd22 View Post

    What a load of fluff for people who are too lazy to think.

    Think about the items you buy. Did the seller build a warm, fuzzy relationship with you?

    Of course not.

    I used Splenda in my iced tea today. No relationship between Splenda and I.

    I went to a restaurant for lunch. They didn't build a relationship with me. They just serve damn good food and are conveniently located.

    The Pepsi I drank last night? Nope no relationship.

    The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on that I bought recently? No relationship.

    Too many platitudes and inane nonsense in this forum, instead of opening your eyes and seeing how the world really works.

    In my niche, I don't "build relationships." People base their decision on whether to buy or not the products I pitch based on whether the product appeals to them.
    While reading your post, i immediately have only 1 thing in mind.

    And i think willie beat me to it since ive not been reading the forums recently.

    The difference is you are comparing online stuff with brick and mortar.

    Yes terrak made a good point too. Building a relationship works offline too, but online i think you need to do it more, because they dont get the benefit of knowing you personally, so its hard to trust something or someone while buying something.

    But when you go to your local grocery store or your gas station, they "can" afford not to build a relationship with you if they dont want to, why?
    Because 1. those items you mentioned are mostly daily necessity and you have to get it anyways. 2. trust isnt really the problem because they are a brick and mortar shop, they cant just close and disappear overnight. (i know some can but compared to online its harder)

    Thats why your comparison is like apple to orange as my teacher would say.

    Of cos a local store would need to build a good relation with you because there are other competitors as well, other brands, other company selling same brands etc etc..
    But at least if you are not happy u can find them and go back to them.

    Whereas online is a diff matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    What kind of "relationship" do you have with the vending machine that sells candy to you. Well, sometimes it steals my money. Yet I still buy from it because I am hungry and hope that it will work this time - please yes. Fact is, you do not need a relationship or even a nice price. Vensing machine food is often stale and over price. Like you find out what people want and you give it to em.

    Kindle is a good example of how I can sell with no relationship- zero.
    Also, look at Ebay - those are not my friends that are buying from em.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      What kind of "relationship" do you have with the vending machine that sells candy to you.
      A different relationship from the one I have with the other 99 vending machines who are all also trying to sell me the same candy at the same time.

      Do you see why this "analogy" doesn't even begin to work?
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      • Profile picture of the author Brandon Bell
        If you're selling a product or service, building a relationship with your customers is everything.

        If you sell a good product or service, your customers will tell everyone they know about it.

        If you sell a bad product or service, your customers will tell everyone they know about it.

        Word of mouth can make or break a brand. You must remember that mindshare precedes marketshare.

        You're motivated to buy Splenda, Pepsi and Logitech because others have said good things about them.

        You see these brands as trustworthy because of the relationships they have established with others.

        This is why testimonials are placed throughout sales letters.

        The relationships that you build serve as a testimonial to your brand.

        If a product or service has a strong brand, building a relationship with the salesman will seem unnecessary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Also, look at Ebay - those are not my friends that are buying from em.
      You're comparing apples to roman blinds.

      People in this forum use relationship for all kinds of thing, but my suspicion is that they mainly use it to sell informational products which have no intrinsic selling power. Everyone can slap a selling page saying they have a good product, but few will buy without the recommendation of someone they trust. And here's where the relationship factor comes in: it gives these people reassurance the product is good and that they can buy it. Relationship is also used to make them buy through one link, rather than the other.

      Like most marketing techniques, this one doesn't apply to all business models. If that was true, then it would mean Amazon are dummies because they don't use long sales letters, exit pop-ups, etc. (Hint: they don't use it because they don't need it - everyone knows Amazon, but few people know the man behind an info product, so he has to "convince" people through his long sales letter that his product is good.)
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  • Profile picture of the author znightmare
    Building relationships is important in a business just starting out or a smaller scale business. Your examples are of products from highly established companies that have been around for a while and have already gained the trust of the population.
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    I agree with you.
    In the early days I had lists and built relationships, but then stopped all this and it has not affected my sales since.
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