Nothing Dumber Than A No Refund Policy (I hate thieves too)

83 replies
Dear Warriors,

Yesterday, Willie Crawford started a thread, asking people their thoughts about refunds. I'll share my story since it's 1:27 am and I can't sleep until I get it off my chest.

I've had this topic on my mind for about a week now.

Why? Because when you start selling products online, and you have a liberal refund policy, guess what? You're going to get refunds!

(Shocking, right?)

Now, the funny thing is...

Your refund policy might be "No questions asked", but as far as your refunder is concerned, they're often going to offer you... all the explanation in the world!!!

(These are the type of things you CAN'T learn by reading a book.)

See, I just got a refund yesterday...

And this was the reason:

"I'm disappointed! I missed something you said in your video, and I don't want to rewind it and listen to it again. Therefore, I'd like a refund."

Think about that!

This person is literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The sad part is that this is the excuse they used to get their refund. Because literally, they could have just said...

"Hey, can I have a refund?"

And that would be that!

Honored!

Because that's my policy!


But instead I get this garbage for a response. You'll get these types of explanations too. It's not solicited. It just comes. Here's the "secret"...

You just can't let it get to you.

(Which is what these whole "refund debate" is about. People take it oh so personally!)

As for me?

I just laughed and laughed.

You can't get mad about these things or your exhibiting poverty consciousness folks. For example, there is a VERY "prominent" member of this forum...

Who explicitly DOES NOT offer a refund policy. And she was talking about it publicly, when someone said to her...

"Yeah, but, think about all the money you're leaving on the table!"

Her reply?

"I'm not leaving money on the table. People either get it or they don't. And when they buy, I keep all the money. Therefore, I'm smart."

Or something like that.

And this person is supposedly a "smart" marketer...

But she doesn't realize that have a no refund policy dramatically reduces your sales conversion rate? How smart can she be, right?

This is just one of those things you NEVER learn until you start selling products of your own. You can sell affiliate products all day, and never see a single support ticket...

But when you sell products of your own...

It's a whole new ball game.

I don't care how "GOOD" your product is, if you offer a refund policy, you're going to get refunds! Often within minutes!

The simple fact is that most of these people have made up their minds before they buy. No skin off my back.

The value your customers get out of putting your stuff to use, or not, isn't your job. There's no use in trying to pretend it is.

And anyone who won't "rewind the tape" (This is the internet folks, all you have to do is click a few seconds back on the timeline) isn't going to make it anyway.

You can't help those people.

But you can make more money by offering a guarantee. People respect guarantees. Even the ones who buy and refund 10 minutes later.

Look. If they need the money, and they want your product, they need the money. And they can buy your product.

Let them have it. Don't be such a tightwad. It'll allow more money to flow to you. And personally, I think this new trend of not offering refunds...

Is going to bite a whole bunch of people where the sun don't shine when the regulator agencies catch up with them. At least if they're doing any volume at all!

They don't mess around.

As Gary Halbert would say...
[indent]"Won't this increase your refunds? Yep, it will. It will probably triple them.

But this technique will also triple your sales!"

If you can't do math, that's fine. I get it. Math isn't that exciting. But money math is. And if you understand the extreme advantage of the economics on the above statement...

Then you also know it's blindingly stupid not to offer refunds.

That's my two cents.

Cheers,

Marc

PS. Disagree with me? Have at it.

PPS. I'll probably link all my "stupid reason why" refunders to this thread from now on. Here's my advice: Just ask for the damn thing. We don't care. Don't tell us some fake sob story!
#dumber #hate #policy #refund #thieves
  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    Thankfully, those refunders are in the minority. Watch out for the dudes that refund then share your stuff on BH sites. Too many WSOs get ripped almost as quickly as they launch. But as someone told me in my thread on webinars, you really can't care about those people because people looking for ripped copies aren't your customers in the first place. Simply put, chances are high they wouldn't buy even if they can't download the ripped WSO for free. It's a tough pill to swallow for sure but it is the reality. Thankfully, the VAST MAJORITY are legit and don't refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Refunds happen, as much as we don't like it.

    I just wish there weren't as many threads like this one making such a big song and dance about it. Because all that does is encourage more dumbarses to do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marc Rodill
    Exactly. Someone just said this to me today, with the same tone. "Oh, it doesn't matter much. It'll probably just end up on BH sites."

    What does THAT have to do with anything?

    Those people are definitely not your customer. You don't even want them to be. They'll just be pawning your stuff off to other time sucking customer support nightmares.

    The best solution is to ignore them. And maybe outsource having the links taken down. But as far as we're personally concerned, you shouldn't lose one wink of sleep over it.

    It's not even be an "issue" that influences business decisions.

    Marc
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Do you make more sales by having a strong refund policy in place? In most cases, yes.

    Does that mean you should just refund everyone, even those with poor excuses like the example you gave above? Hell no.

    If a customer told me they could not be bothered to rewind a video and listen to a word then that is their own problem. That is not an issue with your product, that is an action they are choosing not to take themselves. So it has nothing to do with you or your product. They would have zero chance winning a Paypal dispute against me with that email proof I could show Paypal... and yes, I would most definitely fight that one.

    I think one of the bigger issues in this industry is people being far too laxed with refund policies. Look at what happened to Clickbank. They are well known for their laxed no questions asked refund policy and so most products on their network have absurdly high refund rates for our industry. Why? They brought it upon themselves.

    Do we want the same to happen with all products? No. But if you are just giving in to every single lame refund request you get then you are adding to the problem and it will only get worse.

    I no longer have a no questions asked policy because it was getting abused. Now I only ever give a refund if the product does not work as it was advertised to. It's the fairest refund policy going around. If a product does exactly what it promised to then why on earth should someone ever expect their money back? Any other request will be denied and I will happily dispute them in Paypal and I win in 99% of those cases.

    Have I noticed a big drop in my refund rate by having a more serious and stern approach to refunders? You bet ya. People now know they won't be getting a refund from me for silly reasons and so they don't bother.
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    • Profile picture of the author theultimate1
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Do you make more sales by having a strong refund policy in place? In most cases, yes.

      Does that mean you should just refund everyone, even those with poor excuses like the example you gave above? Hell no.

      If a customer told me they could not be bothered to rewind a video and listen to a word then that is their own problem. That is not an issue with your product, that is an action they are choosing not to take themselves. So it has nothing to do with you or your product. They would have zero chance winning a Paypal dispute against me with that email proof I could show Paypal... and yes, I would most definitely fight that one.

      I think one of the bigger issues in this industry is people being far too laxed with refund policies. Look at what happened to Clickbank. They are well known for their laxed no questions asked refund policy and so most products on their network have absurdly high refund rates for our industry. Why? They brought it upon themselves.

      Do we want the same to happen with all products? No. But if you are just giving in to every single lame refund request you get then you are adding to the problem and it will only get worse.

      I no longer have a no questions asked policy because it was getting abused. Now I only ever give a refund if the product does not work as it was advertised to. It's the fairest refund policy going around. If a product does exactly what it promised to then why on earth should someone ever expect their money back? Any other request will be denied and I will happily dispute them in Paypal and I win in 99% of those cases.

      Have I noticed a big drop in my refund rate by having a more serious and stern approach to refunders? You bet ya. People now know they won't be getting a refund from me for silly reasons and so they don't bother.
      I'd go with this too, Will... if I ever sold my own product online, that is!

      I have a query though - How do you differentiate between a legit refund request and a non-legit one? Some insights on this would help a lot of us a great deal. Thanks in advance, Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Marc Rodill
    I disagree, Will. It's not worth my mental energy to play refund jujitsu with people. The amount of money I could "save" by being "tight" with my policy is better spent on other higher priority tasks in business, like getting new customers who aren't brain dead.

    I'm more than happy to let people have their refunds and move on with my life. No skin off my back. The frustration and aggravation I save myself by not having to worry about "winning" PayPal disputes is enormous in value and cannot be measured. I don't consider that giving in. There's nothing to fight.

    I consider that an investment in my time.

    In business you encounter the lazy, the slothful, and the inept. Same thing you would encounter waiting in line at the grocery store. So what? Next.

    Plus I don't think having a lax refund policy brings absurdly high refund rates on anyone. I think it's probably a combination of the sales pitch expectations not matching up with the value the product actually delivers when you cross behind door number two.

    Surprise! Most Clickbank products suck.

    And it possibly has something to do with super over-hyped affiliate promotions that promise beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world will be eating out of your hands, if you just buy now...

    Naaaaaah!

    And you said, if they know they won't be getting a refund from you for silly reasons, they won't bother.

    Well, they might not bother buying from you again either if they're not pleased and you deny them. And talk about it to other potential customers. You have to take that trade I guess.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      I disagree, Will. It's not worth my mental energy to play refund jujitsu with people. The amount of money I could "save" by being "tight" with my policy is better spent on other higher priority tasks in business, like getting new customers who aren't brain dead.
      We will have to agree to disagree then. If you don't think it's worth your time to submit a simple dispute to stand up for the quality of your product or service, then that's your choice. Just remember that every lame refund request you give into is telling Paypal or other payment processors that indeed your product is exactly as the refunder has stated. If you truly do believe in the quality of your product then I don't see why you would not stand up for yourself and your business. It makes no sense to me. The answer cannot be because 'it's easier'. To me that's just a cop out.

      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      In business you encounter the lazy, the slothful, and the inept. Same thing you would encounter waiting in line at the grocery store. So what? Next.
      Exactly. So you dispute any silly refund requests and move on. That's exactly what I do and I win 99% of them. I'm not running a charity, I am running a business.

      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      Plus I don't think having a lax refund policy brings absurdly high refund rates on anyone. I think it's probably a combination of the sales pitch expectations not matching up with the value the product actually delivers when you cross behind door number two.

      Surprise! Most Clickbank products suck.
      Come on, we both know there are just as many (if not more) rubbish products being sold on other platforms than there are inside of the Clickbank marketplace. But the refund rates on a lot of Clickbank products still remain some of the highest refund rates in this industry. That's not to be blamed on the product alone, it's because of their laxed refund policy and the fact most people know they can go and buy something either through their own affiliate link or just refund it a few days later with no questions asked.

      Ask some of the bigger affiliates who used to promote IM products through Clickbank and they will tell you the first few weeks after a promo were the worst because all of a sudden this huge commission you had earnt got widdled down to nothing after all the predictable refunds poured in. Why do you think no one launches on Clickbank anymore? Their refund policy has a huge part to play in it.

      They trained their own audience to refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      I disagree, Will. It's not worth my mental energy to play refund jujitsu with people.

      Quite often customers just need assistance and / or re-assurance. Sending a polite message enquiring about their refund request can save thousands of Dollars in revenue. Make no mistake about it.

      If anyone offers "No Questions" then they aren't leveraging their business correctly.

      A vendor should be asking questions at every given opportunity in a bid to improve customer relations, improve their product(s) and to reflectively retain revenue as a result of doing those things.


      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      "Yeah, but, think about all the money you're leaving on the table!"

      If anyone is "leaving money on the table" it's the person who attained the money and then willingly let it go...



      Daniel
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  • Profile picture of the author MrArr
    Sometimes, I just think of it this way, Im going to refund this person since this person has a higher change of being an ass***

    It's true how funny these people can get and with their stupid excuses. But if you offered a refund policy with no questions asked, then honor that.

    If you offer a refund policy and would like these buyers to be reasonable according to your assessment then by all means state that, and decide later on if it is justifiable or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

    [indent]"Won't this increase your refunds? Yep, it will. It will probably triple them.

    But this technique will also triple your sales!"

    If you can't do math, that's fine. I get it. Math isn't that exciting. But money math is. And if you understand the extreme advantage of the economics on the above statement...

    Then you also know it's blindingly stupid not to offer refunds.

    That's my two cents.

    Cheers,

    Marc
    I can do the math just fine. Triple sales is not really triple sales when you are actually giving back triple refunds.

    I don't sell "methods" or MAKE $5K BEFORE THIS WEEKEND WITH THIS SUPER NINJA SECRET METHOD OR YOUR MONEY BACK. THIS IS NO JOKE!

    I sell basically, services, plugins, themes, and websites and I do not offer a refund on my products. There is no guarantee that they will be anything other than what I have stated that they are. They won't sneak out of the closet in the middle of the night and clean your house.

    For the large part, people who would want a refund for my products are simply trying to steal the product. I fight that Paypal dispute and often win.

    There have been a few occasions where someone who is fully aware that I don't have a refund policy has asked for one with a good reason. It's at my discretion to honor those and I have.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I can do the math just fine. Triple sales is not really triple sales when you are actually giving back triple refunds.
      I fully support your personal decision not to offer refunds for the work you do, it makes sense... however, I can't let this slide.

      First, whoever said that offering a refund policy will "triple" ones sales is blowing smoke. It may or may not. Let's assume it does though, and do a little math:

      No Refund Policy

      Product sells 1000 copies in x amount of time. Net sales = 1000 copies.

      With Refund Policy (Let's assume triple sales)

      Product sells 3000 copies in x amount of time with a 10% refund rate. Net sales = 2700. Let's bump that to a 50% refund rate - Net sales = 1500.

      I know neither one is really triple sales, but I know which scenario I prefer for what I do.

      Also, technically speaking, offering ANY refund versus no refund doesn't work out to triple refunds, I don't think it can be expressed in percentage terms because "0" is nothing and "refunds" are something.

      If you have 3 ducks and I have none, you don't have triple (300%) the amount of ducks I have. The only correct way I can think to say it, is that you have 3 ducks and I have no ducks.

      If I have 1 duck, and you have 3, then you DO have 300% more than I have.

      I need some math geek to step up and set me straight on this, it's getting weird fast. lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author theultimate1
        Originally Posted by Michael D Forbes View Post

        If I have 1 duck, and you have 3, then you DO have 300% more than I have.

        I need some math geek to step up and set me straight on this, it's getting weird fast. lol.
        I guess you do, indeed... [j/k]

        It would/should be If I have 1 duck, and you have 3, then you DO have 300% of what I have.

        300% more than you would mean 4, if you had 1.
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        • Profile picture of the author SuperDJ
          Originally Posted by theultimate1 View Post

          I guess you do, indeed... [j/k]

          It would/should be If I have 1 duck, and you have 3, then you DO have 300% of what I have.

          300% more than you would mean 4, if you had 1.
          Isn't 300% increase = 6 x as much?

          my math is horrible i think lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Michael D Forbes View Post

        Also, technically speaking, offering ANY refund versus no refund doesn't work out to triple refunds, I don't think it can be expressed in percentage terms because "0" is nothing and "refunds" are something.
        Not giving refunds doesn't actually stop refund requests. People still ask.

        The general wisdom is that two out of three people who would have asked for a refund will not ask for one if you say up front that there are no refunds. This more or less jibes with what I've seen; if you tell people they can't do something, about one out of three will expect to do it anyway because they're "special." (Take that either way.)

        That remaining one out of three can also still do a PayPal dispute or a chargeback through the card issuer, resulting in a refund whether you gave it to them or not.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheCarter
        I was just thinking the exact same thing!

        If sales and refunds both triple at the same percentage of refund to sale then you're onto a winner.

        The thing is that there is no blanket correct refund policy to cover every niche.

        Just like upsells and OTO are acceptable in the I.M. niche, yet if used in several others you will just pi** off your buyer.

        Different niches have different mindsets for most aspects including your refund policy.

        But your Maths is correct Michael!


        Originally Posted by Michael D Forbes View Post

        I fully support your personal decision not to offer refunds for the work you do, it makes sense... however, I can't let this slide.

        First, whoever said that offering a refund policy will "triple" ones sales is blowing smoke. It may or may not. Let's assume it does though, and do a little math:

        No Refund Policy

        Product sells 1000 copies in x amount of time. Net sales = 1000 copies.

        With Refund Policy (Let's assume triple sales)

        Product sells 3000 copies in x amount of time with a 10% refund rate. Net sales = 2700. Let's bump that to a 50% refund rate - Net sales = 1500.

        I know neither one is really triple sales, but I know which scenario I prefer for what I do.

        Also, technically speaking, offering ANY refund versus no refund doesn't work out to triple refunds, I don't think it can be expressed in percentage terms because "0" is nothing and "refunds" are something.

        If you have 3 ducks and I have none, you don't have triple (300%) the amount of ducks I have. The only correct way I can think to say it, is that you have 3 ducks and I have no ducks.

        If I have 1 duck, and you have 3, then you DO have 300% more than I have.

        I need some math geek to step up and set me straight on this, it's getting weird fast. lol.
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        • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
          Originally Posted by TheCarter View Post

          I was just thinking the exact same thing!

          If sales and refunds both triple at the same percentage of refund to sale then you're onto a winner.

          The thing is that there is no blanket correct refund policy to cover every niche.

          Just like upsells and OTO are acceptable in the I.M. niche, yet if used in several others you will just pi** off your buyer.

          Different niches have different mindsets for most aspects including your refund policy.

          But your Maths is correct Michael!
          Let's see some evidence a refund policy triples sales. Otherwise the entire notion is fantasy.
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          • Profile picture of the author TheCarter
            Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

            Let's see some evidence a refund policy triples sales. Otherwise the entire notion is fantasy.
            I wasn't saying it would triple sales as I very much doubt it would!

            I was simply saying that first of all the math was correct and that if it did triple both sales and refunds equally it would be a positive thing.

            Also that your refund policy should reflect your niche.

            If i'm selling you a wordpress theme that has a fully functioning demo available to be seen before you buy then there is absolutely no need to offer a 100% no quibble refund policy.

            If you're selling the next miracle cure then i'm sure the same policy would increase your sales. I very much doubt it would triple them though!

            If anyone does find the true refund formula for tripling your sales, please be sure to share it!
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I can do the math just fine. Triple sales is not really triple sales when you are actually giving back triple refunds.
      Can you do the math, though?

      Most sellers would probably still come out ahead in most situations (obviously doesn't apply if you have some insane refund rate to start with, but most people really don't).

      Let's say you have a fairly high 10% refund rate to start with. You make 100 sales. 10 refunds.

      100 - 10 = 90 net sales

      Triple your sales and it's 300 sales. 30% refund rate. Unless my math's wrong (and it's not), that's 90 refunds.

      300 - 90 = 210 net sales

      In that example it's not triple the sales net, you're right, but it's more than 2 times more net sales!



      Anyway, there's got to be a break even point where triple the refund rate isn't worth it, but I leave you to do the math on your own...and of course you can't triple anything beyond 33.3% when it's not possible to go beyond 100%.
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      • Profile picture of the author Teravel
        Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

        Let's say you have a fairly high 10% refund rate to start with. You make 100 sales. 10 refunds.

        100 - 10 = 90 net sales

        Triple your sales and it's 300 sales. 30% refund rate. Unless my math's wrong (and it's not), that's 90 refunds.

        300 - 90 = 210 net sales

        In that example it's not triple the sales net, you're right, but it's more than 2 times more net sales!
        This is terrible math! If you triple your net sales (from 100 to 300), why would you then increase your Refund rate from 10% to 30%? If 10% of 100 people thought the product sucked so much they wanted a refund, it's more likely to say that 10% of 1,000 people will think the same. And 10% of 100,000 people will think the same. Of course, this will be off by 3-5% in either a positive or negative direction...

        If you triple your sales 100 * 3 = 300
        If you triple your refunds 10 * 3 = 30

        The Refund % would stay close to the same, not increase by 200%!

        To prove your math is flawed, what happens when you increase your sales by 10 times? 100 * 10 = 1,000 sales
        10% * 10 = 100%?!?

        What if you get 100 times the sales? 100 * 100 = 10,000 sales!
        10% * 100 = 1,000% (or 100,000 refunds?!?!?)


        Sorry to rant. Bad math bothers me.
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    • Profile picture of the author writeaway
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I can do the math just fine. Triple sales is not really triple sales when you are actually giving back triple refunds.

      I don't sell "methods" or MAKE $5K BEFORE THIS WEEKEND WITH THIS SUPER NINJA SECRET METHOD OR YOUR MONEY BACK. THIS IS NO JOKE!

      I sell basically, services, plugins, themes, and websites and I do not offer a refund on my products. There is no guarantee that they will be anything other than what I have stated that they are. They won't sneak out of the closet in the middle of the night and clean your house.

      For the large part, people who would want a refund for my products are simply trying to steal the product. I fight that Paypal dispute and often win.

      There have been a few occasions where someone who is fully aware that I don't have a refund policy has asked for one with a good reason. It's at my discretion to honor those and I have.
      I guess based on this, refund policy should hinge on the type of product it is. Themese, plugins, services are one thing, 'systems' are another.
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Okay, Marc...that was a really good post. And I agree. Set your policy and honor it. There's no need getting emotional.

    Some customers are going to have buyer's remorse and want their money back. Maybe their spouse threatened to leave them over the money they spent. Who knows? Just refund and move on.

    If your refund rate is too high, you probably:

    1) Are overselling
    2) Selling to the wrong target market
    3) Under-delivering with poor product quality.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheEye
      This is a bad discussion to have.

      By saying "Nothing Dumber Than A No Refund Policy" you are making it ethical to demand a refund for no reason.

      Why is this you ask me.

      Because all the readers of this thread will start thinking -

      It is ethical to ask for a refund for no reason at all. Everybody does it. Even the vendors are OK with people doing this.

      Discussions like this are fine in masterminds groups or when you are talking to your mentors or students.

      Having them in open forums is only an encouragement for people to do the wrong thing.
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by TheEye View Post

        This is a bad discussion to have.

        By saying "Nothing Dumber Than A No Refund Policy" you are making it ethical to demand a refund for no reason.

        Why is this you ask me.

        Because all the readers of this thread will start to think -

        It is ethical to ask for a refund for no reason at all. Everybody does it. Even the vendors are OK with people doing this.

        Discussions like this are fine in masterminds or when you are talking to your mentors or students.

        Having them in open forums is only an encouragement for people to do the wrong thing.
        It is completely ethical to ask for a refund 'for no reason at all.' The reason is obvious, they didn't like the damn product and they want their money back.

        If a vendor has a 'No Questions Asked Refund Policy' then they lose the right to ask questions
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        • Profile picture of the author TheEye
          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          It is completely ethical to ask for a refund 'for no reason at all.' The reason is obvious, they didn't like the damn product and they want their money back.

          If a vendor has a 'No Questions Asked Refund Policy' then they lose the right to ask questions
          If the product is not what was advertised it is ethical to ask for a refund.

          If the product has everything that was advertised, then I do not consider it is ethical to ask for a refund.

          If you have advertised a 'No Question Asked Refund Policy' it would be unethical not to give a refund.

          Does this make it ethical for the buyers to ask for a refund when they get what was advertised. My answer would be no.
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          • Profile picture of the author Hapningnow
            I may be out of line, but I sometimes think "absolutely no refund" policies might be because the product is crap in the first place and the creator knows they'll get slammed with refunds. With the "no refund" in place, the owner is sure to make money even if their product is just rehashed information.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
      I have had 3 people total ask for a refund in the same manner. "Wow! I love your product. It just isn't for me at this time can I have a refund?" NO When you love something that you paid for you don't get a refund! We all know the game they play and it is silly. On my last product I offered a you must show me your work if you want a refund policy and I never had a single issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

    But she doesn't realize that have a no refund policy dramatically reduces your sales conversion rate?
    Conversion isn't everything.

    Marketing is exactly this: to show your prospective customer why HE wants THIS from YOU right NOW...

    More than he wants the money.

    Now, is it in any way a surprise to you when I suggest that some people are irrationally attached to their money?

    Like, say, the person who wanted his money more than he wanted to rewind a video?

    I don't want those people's money!

    And it's really for a very simple reason: they need to already understand that money, in and of itself, is a worthless fiction. It is a convenient common medium of exchange. That's it. We have made it up. It has no intrinsic value except what you can get for it in exchange.

    So there is absolutely no reason to have money just sitting around. If there is money in your hand, that money is doing nothing for you, and your job is to get it out of your damn hands and into circulation where it can actually do something.

    If you don't understand that, I don't want you as a customer, because you are not ready. And there are two ways I can accomplish that.

    The first is to take your money anyway, then give it back when you reveal your irrational attachment to it.

    The second is to say I'm not giving it back. If you have an irrational attachment to it, this will make you not give it to me in the first place.

    One of those is less work than the other. In addition, it provides an incentive for people to change. No, I don't want you as a customer with your irrational attachment to your money...

    But I sure as hell want you to get over that irrational attachment, even if you NEVER become my customer, because that will be good for you.

    Giving your money back doesn't teach you not to ask for it. Arguing about it when you ask doesn't, either. But telling you up front that you aren't getting your money back so don't even ask... ahh, now you are wondering why. And in the process of wondering, maybe you will figure it out.

    That will be good for you. I will not get the credit. You will think you did it yourself. But I don't care. It's good for you and you should do it.

    And either you are in this business for the money, or you are in it to help people - and the money is only being exchanged so you can use economies of scale to help more people, or offer people more help.

    There is a benefit to bringing in the common rabble and trying to teach them how to be better people, but the 80/20 rule comes in and you spend most of your time trying to teach fish how to climb trees.

    I spent a couple years effectively teaching fish to climb trees because they really needed help. Most of them still can't climb trees and will never learn because they don't want to. I can't have that time back, and you can't pay me enough money to make up for it.

    I don't care if you're a fish. Can you climb a tree? If not, come back when you can. And in this particular metaphor, "climbing a tree" is buying a product with zero expectation of a refund.

    It's not about the money. The money is just a symbol. You have to prove that you have it, you are willing to use it, and you understand there are no do-overs. Because to run a successful business, you also need to do that with your time and influence, which are much more important than money... but you can't hand me a chunk of your time or influence.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Romeo90
    There will always be theives, no matter if there is a refund policy or not.

    When I released my first eBook and publicised it on a forum in the niche I was in, I tested 3 different approaches - no refunds, 30 day refund, and 60 day day refund.

    No refunds - increased PayPal disputes, despite being a digital product. No actual refund requests sent to the support email

    30 day refunds - Good sales, refund requests spiked on 28th day, 29th day etc.

    60 day refund - this policy got me the most sales and the least refunds in same period, which is what I stick to now.

    But everyone is different. I don't worry about what others are doing, just on what I believe is best for my business :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Romeo90 View Post

      When I released my first eBook and publicised it on a forum in the niche I was in, I tested 3 different approaches - no refunds, 30 day refund, and 60 day day refund.
      I tested 30 days, 60 days, and six months. Refund rates for both "30 days" and "60 days" were around 0.23% (that is not a typo - just under one quarter of one percent). Sales didn't really change.

      Refund rates for "six months" were 2.5% and gave me heart failure.

      Sales went up about 8% - which means previously, I would have 400 sales and one refund, and now I had 432 sales and 11 refunds. One out of every three sales I gained went out the window.

      All refund requests were received within two weeks regardless of policy.

      When I took all mention of refunds off my sales pages altogether, refund rates dropped to 0.21% and I was happy. Sales were roughly the same as with 30 and 60 day refund policies.

      I have never tested an explicit "no refunds" policy because until recently I found the concept offensive, for much the same reasons TheEye is citing.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author briankno
      Originally Posted by Romeo90 View Post

      There will always be theives, no matter if there is a refund policy or not.

      When I released my first eBook and publicised it on a forum in the niche I was in, I tested 3 different approaches - no refunds, 30 day refund, and 60 day day refund.

      No refunds - increased PayPal disputes, despite being a digital product. No actual refund requests sent to the support email

      30 day refunds - Good sales, refund requests spiked on 28th day, 29th day etc.

      60 day refund - this policy got me the most sales and the least refunds in same period, which is what I stick to now.

      But everyone is different. I don't worry about what others are doing, just on what I believe is best for my business :-)
      Seems like people forget to refund the product when it's 60 days. Interesting results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Romeo90
    Actually, I never even thought of just taking any mention of refunds off the page.

    But some good insight, thanks CDarkLock
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  • Profile picture of the author datingworld
    I never ask for refunds whether I like the product or not. At the end of the day, its only few bucks...
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  • Profile picture of the author Felix Hill
    As other people have mentioned above me, that was a silly reason for a refund.
    I do think having a refund policy is better than not having one, because that shows you actually trust your product. How can other people trust your product if you do not even show you trust it to be good for the potential buyer?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
      Originally Posted by Felix Hill View Post

      I do think having a refund policy is better than not having one
      Not having a refund policy will NO DOUBT scare customers off. You will still make sales, but you don't need any "proof" that it will chase away sales.

      The real question is, is NOT giving out a few refunds, worth who knows how many customers, that your no refund policy scared away?

      IMO, no... Like I said most buyers are legit, and if your refund rate is too high, then 9 times out of 10, it's your product that is the reason for the high refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    It's a personal preference. Maybe people without a refund policy in place don't sell as much. But maybe they take that lost revenue in peace of mind. Peace of mind in knowing someone didn't take their info product and upload it to every warez site on the Web. "Well, that's just the cost of doing business." That's nonsense. It doesn't have to be. And where does this myth of selling three times as much with a refund policy come from? Stats, anyone?

    Refunds for some of the large IM/MMO launches are as high as 75% in some cases. How does that fit into the equation? I guess that happens when people get emotionally involved in some concept they haven't thought through.

    Dictating or pretending to know what's best for others by calling them Dumb is narrow minded and pretentious. And as far as saying people don't believe in their products without a refund policy, that's nonsense. Some of the top marketers here don't offer refunds and it doesn't hurt them at all. And guess what?

    For those who say they'd NEVER buy something unless it has a refund policy they're full of it. If the right product came along and they knew it would help them they'd buy it anyway.

    As for me, I take it on a case by case basis. For some products I'll offer refunds and for others, all sales final with only a few exceptions. And for the missed sales, screw 'em.

    This whole argument has been beaten to death in Willie's thread anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Dictating or pretending to know what's best for others by calling them Dumb is narrow minded and pretentious.
      It's actually divisive and polarising. Note what Marc did in this thread.

      1. He took the discussion out of Willie's thread and made it into his own.
      2. He took a clear and controversial position on the question to spark discussion.
      3. He hung out for an hour and then buggered off.

      There is wisdom there, grasshopper, and it has nothing to do with refund policies.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author KseniaTrushina
    Banned
    Have sales will have a refund, this is normal.
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    If the seller does a decent job of showing previews, there should be no reason for a refund. Like if you sell themes and show a live preview, why would someone refund it, having fully seen how it works? (unless they're a cheap ripoff scam customer).

    When I go to Barnes & Noble to buy a book, I can see a preview, thumbing through it, and so I would never refund a book, or DVD or whatever, since I've seen previews. Or if I buy a Kindle on Amazon, I've looked at a sample chapter or page, so would never refund it.

    In this economy, serial refunders and ripoff people are rampant, and at least for me I've found it's best to avoid dealing with them by having a clear no-refund policy and giving great preview content, so they can see what they're getting.

    For example, I've got a 2-webinar $97 series coming up, I've already held a nearly hourlong preview webinar, and have the video preview on the sales site, so people can see indepth exactly what kind of content is being delivered, if they choose to buy the 2-webinar series. I would never offer a refund policy since they get nearly an hour of preview content, to help them decide if it's suitable for them.

    If you offer a refund policy and make a big deal out of it, you're setting the stage for potential refunds since all the undecided people who buy access may have a big percentage that say "nah I'd rather not pay for this" even though they got access to it. That's ripping off sellers, and shouldn't be tolerated.

    Or at least if you do offer refunds, one thing I do is have a blacklist and I IP-block and check it for "bad customers" and void their orders/prevent bad customers from ordering a 2nd time, since it'll likely end badly. Fortunately if you're clear and stern and offer world-class content, you only have a very tiny percentage of problems, I've found.
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  • Profile picture of the author zonboss
    I think by law the seller is held to give refunds during the first 14 days anyway. Maybe this only applies to Europe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    It's alot easier to just refund someone, than to have some bitter buyer trashing you on the net or taking out charge backs. I don't care if they want a refund because their coffee got cold while reading the product. It's not worth the time, hassle, or headaches.

    The truth is most buyers are legit, and it's only a handful of knuckle heads who do the serial refund thing. IMO, it's a little hypocritical for someone to return something to the big box store because the product didn't cut it for them, and turn around and have a no refund policy on their own products.

    Most people that offer no refund, are people who let the serial refunders get under their skin. You time will be better spent in trying to block these serial refunders from buying in the first place, than to pull your hair out over it. Countless successful marketers have a big following, because their customers know, if the product isn't for them, they can always ask for a refund.

    If your refund rate is too high, then maybe you should check your product, because the number of serial refunders is not enough to derail a product.
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    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

    ~ Jeff Bezos

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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I like L.L. bean's refund policy.

    100% Guaranteed

    Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L. Bean that is not completely satisfactory.
    Just my $.02
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  • Profile picture of the author Teravel
    Why is it that in both threads with this topic, the focus is on...

    A. "No refund policy at all"

    or

    B. "No questions asked refunds"

    To much of anything is a bad thing. There must be balance. As in everything else, give your refund policy a balance that your customers can easily understand before they purchase. This will weed out the "tire-kickers" that don't want to put time into getting their refund, and show your customers that you do have a refund policy for those that have legit reasons.

    I must say... Tommy Boy has a good point.

    An extra thought...

    Since so many people are talking about "Serial Refunders" and how they "Aren't worth the hassle". Those are most likely the people that are sharing your product for FREE on Black Hat Forums.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by Teravel View Post

      Why is it that in both threads with this topic, the focus is on...

      A. "No refund policy at all"

      or

      B. "No questions asked refunds"

      To much of anything is a bad thing. There must be balance

      Nail on the head.

      Bravo.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Teravel View Post

      Why is it that in both threads with this topic, the focus is on...
      Because:

      As in everything else, give your refund policy a balance that your customers can easily understand before they purchase.
      These two policies are the ones customers can easily understand. Anything else is "fine print," which frightens and confuses them.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Borja Obeso
    A No Refund Policy is just a Big Ass Scammer Sign. Just Saying...
    I completely agree with Alex. It's a lot easier to just handle over a refund than lose valuable time dealing with disputes, claims, possible sues, etc. Time is money, I always say that. Specially on an industry like internet marketing where credibility and reputation is everything!
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by Borja Obeso View Post

      I completely agree with Alex. It's a lot easier to just handle over a refund than lose valuable time dealing with disputes, claims, possible sues, etc. Time is money, I always say that.
      Business isn't meant to be "easy". It's about being effective in generating and retaining revenue.

      Any business worth their weight in salt should be working with every customer, listening to complaint, working with customer and complaint in a bid to improve. That doesn't always involve returning payment.

      "A penny saved is a penny earned" is what I say.

      Daniel
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        Business isn't meant to be "easy". It's about being effective in generating revenue.
        Which, in turn, is about finding "easy" ways to do so.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Which, in turn, is about finding "easy" ways to do so.
          .....to scale up to a push the boundaries of capacity where the business as a collective is no longer "easy".

          If business is easy there's not enough of it being done.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

            If business is easy there's not enough of it being done.
            A man was walking through the country one day and saw a pig farmer under an apple tree. One by one, the farmer was picking up his pigs and holding them up to the tree, where they would take an apple. The farmer noticed the man watching, and said "pigs love fresh apples."

            The man said "but doesn't this take an awful lot of time?"

            And the farmer said "what's time to a pig?"

            If your business is hard, you are either in the wrong business or you are doing it wrong.
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              A man was walking through the country one day and saw a pig farmer under an apple tree. One by one, the farmer was picking up his pigs and holding them up to the tree, where they would take an apple. The farmer noticed the man watching, and said "pigs love fresh apples."

              The man said "but doesn't this take an awful lot of time?"

              And the farmer said "what's time to a pig?"

              If your business is hard, you are either in the wrong business or you are doing it wrong.
              Perfection before replication.

              Replication to capacity.

              Increase of capacity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    If people put in more effort into the making of their products, as they do trying to keep from refunding buyers, then it would not be an issue. The vast majority of buyers are legit buyers, and far out weigh the refunders.

    If your refund rates climbs into the 20 and 30's, then you should be happy you made money at all, because there's a good chance your product is crap.

    Will sells thousands of units, and keeps his refund rates below 1%. If you're on his list you know he rarely sends emails, let alone promos. Many people bitch about refunds, even though they know their product are rehashed or of poor quality. Take care of your customers, and they will take care of you.
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    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

    ~ Jeff Bezos

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      If people put in more effort into the making of their products, as they do trying to keep from refunding buyers, then it would not be an issue. The vast majority of buyers are legit buyers, and far out weigh the refunders.

      You contradict yourself.

      First you say product quality is the reason for refunds and then say there are legit buyer and there are refunders.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Same argument, new faces.

        Here is how it works. Instead of blindly following what people say, you test it out.

        You then decide if it is worth it from a monetary standpoint and from a pain in the arse standpoint.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        You contradict yourself.

        First you say product quality is the reason for refunds and then say there are legit buyer and there are refunders.
        Contradict how? Most buyers are legit. If you have a high refund rate, then maybe the product is the problem. Why in the world would serial buyers waste time or risk exposing themselves, when all they have to do is wait for one serial refunder to share the product on a black hat forum? If you have a high refund rate, there's a good chance the product had alot to do with it

        All refunders are NOT serial refunders
        Signature
        " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
        But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

          Contradict how? Most buyers are legit. If you have a high refund rate, then maybe the product is the problem. Why in the world would serial buyers waste time or risk exposing themselves, when all they have to do is wait for one serial buyer to share the product on a black hat forum? If you have a high refund rate, there's a good chance the product had alot to do with it

          I believe I already addressed the contradiction but will try again.

          Why do you think many won't use Clickbank when selling?
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    • Profile picture of the author badlimey
      There's another way to look at refunds as they relate to WSO offers. Would you buy a car before you test drove it? No, didn't think so. If you buy a piece of fruit at the store you don't buy it until you pick it up, examine it, prod it or even smell it.

      If you are going to make an offer why not just put it all up front and offer a decent trial period. If your offer is solid it will convert, if not you just tweak it until you get it right.

      I would rather get feedback on my product by looking at how many "lookie Lous" convert into paying customers. Worrying about getting ripped off is not a valid reason, it's going to happen anyway if what you have is decent, what are you going to do, spend a couple million + to fight a lawsuit?

      Besides which most States have statutory refund periods for most products and services and you don't want to piss off the State, trust me!
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
        Originally Posted by badlimey View Post

        There's another way to look at refunds as they relate to WSO offers. Would you buy a car before you test drove it? No, didn't think so. If you buy a piece of fruit at the store you don't buy it until you pick it up, examine it, prod it or even smell it.

        If you are going to make an offer why not just put it all up front and offer a decent trial period. If your offer is solid it will convert, if not you just tweak it until you get it right.

        I would rather get feedback on my product by looking at how many "lookie Lous" convert into paying customers. Worrying about getting ripped off is not a valid reason, it's going to happen anyway if what you have is decent, what are you going to do, spend a couple million + to fight a lawsuit?

        Besides which most States have statutory refund periods for most products and services and you don't want to piss off the State, trust me!
        You couldn't have put it any better, I agree 100%
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        But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by badlimey View Post

        There's another way to look at refunds as they relate to WSO offers. Would you buy a car before you test drove it? No, didn't think so. If you buy a piece of fruit at the store you don't buy it until you pick it up, examine it, prod it or even smell it.

        If you are going to make an offer why not just put it all up front and offer a decent trial period. If your offer is solid it will convert, if not you just tweak it until you get it right.

        I would rather get feedback on my product by looking at how many "lookie Lous" convert into paying customers. Worrying about getting ripped off is not a valid reason, it's going to happen anyway if what you have is decent, what are you going to do, spend a couple million + to fight a lawsuit?

        Besides which most States have statutory refund periods for most products and services and you don't want to piss off the State, trust me!
        I buy software and software components all the time with no refund policies. We are talking stuff that costs in the thousands of dollars.

        Let's see some of those laws dictating refund policies are a must.
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      • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
        By saying "Nothing Dumber Than A No Refund Policy" you are making it ethical to demand a refund for no reason.

        Why is this you ask me.

        Because all the readers of this thread will start thinking -

        It is ethical to ask for a refund for no reason at all. Everybody does it. Even the vendors are OK with people doing this.
        Many bricks and mortar stores will take things back without you having to provide any reason for the return. Are people unethical to use that policy if they get home and realize they didn't really need a whoozywhatsit after all? No. Are they unethical if they take it back because in the store they thought it was navy blue and when they got home realized it was black? No.

        I have returned things to my local supermarket that went bad before their expiration date or that tasted absolutely horrible. They cheerfully refund my money. I continue to shop there. I think that's a fair arrangement for both sides.

        I've actually given it some thought: Why would the supermarket have this policy since it could so obviously be abused? Well, they're smart because they don't want you to be unhappy with stuff you bought there. That could very well send you to the competition.

        And since they're still in business, it appears that it isn't abused that often. Most people are honest and honorable, most of the time.

        Listen, I understand it's painful to get return requests as a business owner. But it's also very painful to hear from customers about instances where they very much wanted to ask for their money back and didn't - and they remember this years later! That does a number on your bottom line, also. You just don't see it happening right in front of your eyes.

        Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by badlimey View Post

        If you are going to make an offer why not just put it all up front and offer a decent trial period.
        Because economics and game theory and incentives.

        First, you have to give me $17 for a product.

        Then you get a period of time to decide whether you want just the product, or the product and your $17 back.

        What is the customer's optimal strategy?

        You are suggesting that the people who don't use the optimal strategy would rather be honest than have $17.

        This is not true.

        Most people would rather be lazy than have $17.

        The people who don't ask for their money back aren't saying they like your product so much they chose to pay for it. They just couldn't be arsed to ask for their money. It wasn't worth their time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Maurice365
    I'm on the fence with this one. The only way I would say no refunds is if I had a product that absolutely worked for ANYONE that took action. But I also agree with you Marc, that no refunds reduces sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    Why do you think many won't use Clickbank when selling?
    Because alot of the I.M products on Clickbank are rehashed trash so buyers refund? When was the last time you bought something from Clickbank?

    I thought I.M products on Clickbank had a high refund rate because of how good the products are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      Because alot of the I.M products on Clickbank are rehashed trash so buyers refund? When was the last time you bought something from Clickbank?
      Again, contradiction...

      You said get your product quality high and there wouldn't be a refund problem.

      You then say there are refund buyers but they are in the minority which means you will still have a refund problem no matter the quality of the product.

      I have seen a few sellers talk refund percentages when selling on Clickbank and selling on their own site. It was a pretty big difference. The quality isn't any different since it was the same product. Are you trying to tell me that when listing on Clickbank it automatically becomes rehashed trash?

      Then we can go into the rehash trash idea. If I purchase everything on Facebook marketing there will obviously be some overlap to put it mildly. Does that mean it was trash? No, that would be a silly assertion.

      Does that mean I should demand a refund and call it trash simply because I am an idiot for purchasing the same type of products? Of course not yet many people do and it has nothing to do with the product quality.

      That in itself has just demonstrated the pain in the arse quotient I talked about earlier. You can avoid people like that with higher prices and no refund policies.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    Again, contradiction...

    You said get your product quality high and there wouldn't be a refund problem.
    Correction, I said put out good products and you won't have to 'worry" about refunds.

    You can't please everybody, so refunds will happen, a high refund rate is when it becomes a problem. Will maintains a refund rate of less than 1%, if people refund just for the hell of it, then everybody would have high refund rates. Serial refunders refund on Clickbank because they don't risk exposing themselves. So if you deny someone a refund out of Clickbank, you risk stereotyping a legit buyer who just doesn't like the product.
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    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      Correction, I said put out good products and you won't "have to worry about refunds"

      You can't please everybody, so refunds will happen, a high refund rate is when it becomes a problem. Will maintains a refund rate of less than 1%, if people refund just for the hell of it, then everybody would have high refund rates. Serial refunders refund on Clickbank because they don't risk exposing themselves. So if you deny someone a refund out of Clickbank, you risk stereotyping a legit buyer who just doesn't like the product.
      A quality product won't alleviate refund worries unless you were never worried in the first place. You said yourself you can't make everyone happy.

      You don't have any say in refunding when selling on Clickbank from my understanding. They are the seller and refunds are almost guaranteed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    A quality product won't alleviate refund worries unless you were never worried in the first place. You said yourself you can't make everyone happy.

    You don't have any say in refunding when selling on Clickbank from my understanding. They are the seller and refunds are almost guaranteed.
    If you are worried about refunds, then you probably shouldn't be selling on Clickbank. Even with the high refund rate on Clickbank, you will still make money many times over the cost to make the product, that you wouldn't have made had you not sold it there.

    When I say you don't have to worry about refunds, I mean you shouldn't lose any sleep over it. I've never requested a refund online, but I sure as hell took physical products back to the store just like any one else.

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    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      If you are worried about refunds, then you probably shouldn't be selling on Clickbank. Even with the high refund rate on Clickbank, you will still make money many times over the cost to make the product, that you wouldn't have made had you not sold it there.
      I have a no refund policy and I am dealing with the customers I want to deal with and have pretty much the same conversions.

      Clickbank isn't some magical kingdom that brings sales just from listing with them.


      When I say you don't have to worry about refunds, I mean you shouldn't lose any sleep over it.
      You should have said that if that is what you meant. If you become lazy and rely on refund policies to make sales, you shouldn't worry about refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    I have a no refund policy and I am dealing with the customers I want to deal with and have pretty much the same conversions.

    Clickbank isn't some magical kingdom that brings me sales just from listing with them.
    I figured you had a no refund policy, that is probably why you were nitpicking post's on here. To each it's own, that's why there are people for and against refunds here. No need to try and justify your no refund policy by nitpicking others opinions who don't agree with you, that's between you and your customer.

    I am all for refunds and you are not, no need to go back and forth over someone elses view which doesn't match yours.
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    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      I figured you had a no refund policy, that is probably why you were nitpicking post's on here. To each it's own, that's why there are people for and against refunds here. No need to try and justify your no refund policy by nitpicking others opinions who don't agree with you, that's between you and your customer.

      I am all for refunds and you are not, no need to go back and forth over someone elses view which doesn't match yours.
      Exposing contradictions is nitpicking now, eh?

      I don't need to justify my policy. I tested it out and it works exactly the way I want it to work. I am telling others to test it out instead of blindly following the herd.

      This is a discussion forum where people go back and forth discussing topics. If you don't like opposing views you should avoid forums. They will only make you sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    You didn't hurt my feelings dude, you're the one who got offended and started trolling my post's. It was my "opinion" on a no refund policy, and not aimed towards you. You read what you wanted to read, and took it personal.

    Anyways, have a great day dude, I am done going back and forth with you
    Signature
    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

    ~ Jeff Bezos

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      You didn't hurt my feelings dude, you're the one who got offended and started trolling my post's. It was my "opinion" on a no refund policy, and not aimed towards you. You read what you wanted to read, and took it personal.
      You have an overactive imagination. Anyway, this is about refund policies and not about some strange world where you think you can offend someone on the internet.
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  • Profile picture of the author prem khaira
    Banned
    i have a product which offers no refunds

    However, i feel your frustration.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    I mostly sell info products and I have a no questions asked refund policy. My refund rate is very low even for the IM niche.

    If someone asks me for a refund, even if it's for a stupid reason or they are blatantly trying to rip me off, I give it to them then blacklist them and remove them from my list because I don't want to deal with them ever again. It's better for them to be banished from my business and not wasting anymore of my time.

    I had a really stupid refund request the other day. The guy wanted a $1 refund even though he got a ton of products yet still expected a $5 cash back offer and demanded I sent him to his Paypal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    I see your point. And have voiced my opinion very strongly in the past regarding this subject.

    Refund Policy's I believe are crucial for many of the type of products that IM'rs sell. Many of these products are informational type products. So, a solid Refund Policy is more than likely going to help put someone over the edge if they are hesitant about the credibility and quality of a product.

    I honestly believe that if I offered a refund policy it would increase my sales, AND increase hassles with refunding people. One thing about the products that I sell. They are graphics related products. People can see the quality ahead of time. So, I encourage people NOT to buy, if they do not like what they see, because I do not have a refund policy on my products. I make that very clear upfront.

    Sure, I am losing out, but I am also not flagging myself with paypal, as a person who is always giving refunds to people. I use paypal not only for recieving money from WSO's or product sales that are generated from my websites, but I also use it for my graphic design services. I also invoice people and recieve money that way. I simply do not want the hassle or the track record from paypals perspective as a business/vendor that is always refunding people.

    It may not even matter to paypal, if I initiate the refund, I do not know? I just do not want to be on their bad side or have any flags raised towards my business account with them.

    So, that's one of my main reasons and concerns for not offering a refund policy, next to the simple fact that anyone who buys from one of my WSO's is given a great look into exactly what they are purchasing before they purchase. So that they really do not have any excuse to refund UNLESS they did not read the salespage and look at the salescopy and product descriptions and examples. But if someone did do that, I would be very skepticle about the ligitmacy of their claim.
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