I HATE my job and want to start selling websites, critique my packages!

TolyZ

11 years ago

Who pays more then $10 for hosting now days?

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Alex Mensah 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TolyZ

Who pays more then $10 for hosting now days?

yes to be honest the hosting fee is a little overpriced find a way to reduce that a little more. wish you the best
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Borja Obeso 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TolyZ

Who pays more then $10 for hosting now days?

I pay over $200 on hosting because my sites receive hundreds of thousands of visitors. So depending on the quality of his support I think he might make it work at that price.
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NatesMarketing

11 years ago

Theoretically you can sell anything for any price - you just have to make the customer realize that YOU have what they NEED. So, your prices may or may not be fine...it will be in the eye of the beholder/customer.

Needless to say, I do perform web design services for local businesses - and based on my experience, your "package" system may not work/may seem overbearing. Granted, if you can pitch your packages and make sales...good on you man.

I'll just share with you my approach/experiences:
- I charge hourly ($25-$35/hour)
- Most businesses already have some sort of domain/random hosting lined up - you'll need to sort it out...I don't foresee them spending $35 a month for hosting (since hosting is like $80/year) without support.
- I sit with the client, come up with a "plan of attack" - figure out what they want, I add my input (I always upsell mailing lists with autoresponders - use my affiliate code...etc I also usually can upsell MaxCDN - use my referral code again. Where you can work in an affiliate code, go for it...some are recurring...aka residual income)
- Once we have a plan...I estimate time it'll take..multiply it by hourly wage, and then ask for half up front half upon delivery. If I underestimate or overestimate my time, I always change it to benefit the client. If they're not happy - I'm not happy.
- Always ask for referrals
- I then provide support/consultation for $25-$35 an hour. Now, if they email me with some small issue...I knock it out real quick for them...no money exchanged.

Keep your customer happy - they'll tell all their other business buddies about you and that you took care of them.

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koreancowboy

11 years ago

Originally Posted by NatesMarketing

Theoretically you can sell anything for any price - you just have to make the customer realize that YOU have what they NEED. So, your prices may or may not be fine...it will be in the eye of the beholder/customer.

Needless to say, I do perform web design services for local businesses - and based on my experience, your "package" system may not work/may seem overbearing. Granted, if you can pitch your packages and make sales...good on you man.

I'll just share with you my approach/experiences:
- I charge hourly ($25-$35/hour)
- Most businesses already have some sort of domain/random hosting lined up - you'll need to sort it out...I don't foresee them spending $35 a month for hosting (since hosting is like $80/year) without support.
- I sit with the client, come up with a "plan of attack" - figure out what they want, I add my input (I always upsell mailing lists with autoresponders - use my affiliate code...etc I also usually can upsell MaxCDN - use my referral code again. Where you can work in an affiliate code, go for it...some are recurring...aka residual income)
- Once we have a plan...I estimate time it'll take..multiply it by hourly wage, and then ask for half up front half upon delivery. If I underestimate or overestimate my time, I always change it to benefit the client. If they're not happy - I'm not happy.
- Always ask for referrals
- I then provide support/consultation for $25-$35 an hour. Now, if they email me with some small issue...I knock it out real quick for them...no money exchanged.

Keep your customer happy - they'll tell all their other business buddies about you and that you took care of them.

This guy...gets it! Listen to him.

Dood, you should start a thread on "How to Be Successful at Internetz Marketing".

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

I hope you have a dynamite portfolio for the prices you want to charge. As an example, you are charging more for a logo than some of the top logo designers on Elance.

$400 for a 6-page Wordpress site? They better be some dynamite design and incredible copy for that price.

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I hope you have a dynamite portfolio for the prices you want to charge. As an example, you are charging more for a logo than some of the top logo designers on Elance.

$400 for a 6-page Wordpress site? They better be some dynamite design and incredible copy for that price.

I hear you a lot of people will think that is too much, but my angle is that it is a numbers game and if there is one thing I've learned from real estate is that some people have no rationale in what they pay or who they choose. As they teach you early in your career, "Sometimes you just have to be there".

I was doing some research, depending on the source somewhere between 58-75% of businesses don't have a website. The 75% was from the Census bureau.. I find that reeeallly hard to believe... hell I was thinking 80%+ of businesses had a website.

Now, there are about 27,700,000 businesses in the USA. Out of those 21,700,000 are sole proprietorships (my target). So, I get about 50,000 phone numbers and stick them in an auto-dialer and go to work and it becomes a numbers game, just like listing FSBOs except with one distinct advantage.

How many FSBOs do I have to talk to get a good appointment? About 40-50. How many appointments do I have to go on to get a listing? About 2. So what's the problem, why don't I just never stop calling FSBOs? Well there are only about 400 FSBOs in my greater-metro area, so I run out of leads.

But with 21,700,000 sole proprietors I don't think I'll ever run out of leads, not when 1,000,000 new businesses are created in good economic times and half of that in a recession.

Anyways, I'm going to create a dynamite site and a few example sites, say one for John Doe Plumber, one for John Doe's Restaurant, one for John Doe Lawyer. I'm going to really pitch them hard that #1 it is important to be on the web and have a professional presence #2 it is super important to have a mobile optimized site now more than ever with everyone browsing the web on their iphones, androids, and tablets.

WP Touch Pro 3 does an amazing job...

$25 hosting is required, they can't host it on their own, they can host their non-mobilize optimized, .html site they built 5 years ago wherever they want, if they want my site they host it with me. I learned this from the best real estate web design firm, Real Estate Websites, Custom real estate website Design by Real Estate Webmasters , if you want one of their sites you host it with them. Even if you pay $10,000 for it, they don't let it get out of their claws because their techniques are proprietary. Well I don't have their l33t skills but my pitch will make them think I do.

That's my game plan. If it doesn't work, well time to either come up with a new game plan or keep selling houses!

I do appreciate everyones input, I will keep it in mind and maybe I am overpriced, however, I think many of you are underselling yourselves because you aren't doing the prospecting required to name your price. This whole idea came from a kid on the offline discussion who was selling them for more than I am (both website & hosting) and I was thinking (dang.. he's pricey, maybe I should do that).. he wasn't even calling them with an auto-dialer, he was looking up numbers in the yellow book and texting them... I know speaking to people is more effective than texting.

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Why don't you build realty websites and rank them, to make your life easier? You could have your own leads coming from buyers that contacted you through your site. You can pre-sell your leads through your website, and have a better chance of closing deals

Thousands of people look to the internet first to find houses in certain cities, so why not have your website out in front of them?

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

Why don't you build realty websites and rank them, to make your life easier? You could have your own leads coming from buyers that contacted you through your site. You can pre-sell your leads through your website, and have a better chance of closing deals

Thousands of people look to the internet first to find houses in certain cities, so why not have your website out in front of them?

I already do get internet leads off my website and sell them homes, it is a drag. Internet leads are also the worst kind of lead. Half of them don't even write you back if you respond immediately, if you take more than 2 hours to respond because you were at the gym or on an appointment good luck, many of them have agents, many of them are not ready to buy yet, many of them aren't qualified. Finding a willing, ready, and able client without an agent who is willing to work with someone bc they filled out an internet form is something most agents do, but it is not easy or glamorous. On top of that, one person might fill out a form on 5 different website in one night so then they have all those agents calling them. Higher-end homes those people already had an agent when they bought or sold in the past and have 100 agents down their throats trying to steal the business. On top of that you have zillow, trulia, realtor.com to compete with (I buy advertising on all 3 but my personal websites get crushed by the big ones). I get much better success from cold calling fsbos and expired listings. I actually do pretty well, even in my first year I was top 5 out of a 100 agent office. Now I'm in a bigger better office with much much heavier hitters and I'm top 10 or 15 out of 130. As I said in my original post, it is good money, but it is not what I want to do with my life.

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Hydraman

11 years ago

This is the best advice here. Start from where you are. Use your internet marketing skills to build leads for yourself and others, create a product based on your experience etc.

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

Why don't you build realty websites and rank them, to make your life easier? You could have your own leads coming from buyers that contacted you through your site. You can pre-sell your leads through your website, and have a better chance of closing deals

Thousands of people look to the internet first to find houses in certain cities, so why not have your website out in front of them?

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Give it a try if you love your phone ringing constantly and being an emotional douche for cunt-rag clients it'll be perfect for you.

Sorry to hear about your experience with being a realtor. I have a friend who is a realtor, and another friend who flips houses. He calls me to bring a crew to do the remodeling for a month, and my realtor friend sells them within a month. It's a cool little system, but I can see how dealing with "cunt-rag clients" can really make a job unpleasant.

I looked at your prices, and they are pretty high especially the logo design. You could get away with those prices if you did something locally, but online you have competition in countries like India, Philippines, etc... so they will under cut you every time. You could make the bulk of your money on maintenance to the website.

One thing I noticed about business owners, is that they have no idea what hosting is, so they will Google web hosting to get a better understanding of what it is, and find all kinds of hosting for as low as 99 cents.

If you want to contact business owners through cold calling or newspaper ads, you can sell at those prices, but online competition is fierce, someone will always undercut you.

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PROmotions LLC

11 years ago

For those prices, you should stray from WP sites, people only want / use WP sites because they are easy for THEM to create, if someone is paying for a website with design, I would offer them raw HTML sites and show them the benefit of having that over a WP site.

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by PROmotions LLC

For those prices, you should stray from WP sites, people only want / use WP sites because they are easy for THEM to create, if someone is paying for a website with design, I would offer them raw HTML sites and show them the benefit of having that over a WP site.

What is the benefit to html sites? I used to do html sites when I was a kid in notepad.. I have fooled with them in dreamweaver.. I love wordpress so easy to deploy and manage.. I think the only drawback to wordpress is if you are on clunky shared hosting that can't handle the mysql requests.. if you are on a vps it is lightning fast..

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

What is the benefit to html sites? I used to do html sites when I was a kid in notepad.. I have fooled with them in dreamweaver.. I love wordpress so easy to deploy and manage.. I think the only drawback to wordpress is if you are on clunky shared hosting that can't handle the mysql requests.. if you are on a vps it is lightning fast..

PROmotions LLC is right. The thing with Wordpress is, if the business owners find out it's Wordpress, they will give you a "your services are no longer needed" because Wordpress is so easy to update and maintain. With HTML, you know they are not going to go digging in the code, so they have to call you.

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

PROmotions LLC is right. The thing with Wordpress is, if the business owners find out it's Wordpress, they will give you a "your services are no longer needed" because Wordpress is so easy to update and maintain. With HTML, you know they are not going to go digging in the code, so they have to call you.

I don't want them to call me.. that's exactly what I don't want! After I'm done creating their website I want them to know how to update it.. isn't that value-addedness? They don't have to pay to have it updated.

In the dream world I would create 2 websites a day and at the end of a year I would have made say $365,000 off the design and would be raking about $11,000 month off the hosting. I would be using some sort of turn-key reseller so I would not be supporting that either. Probably make $15 per site. Okay that is a dream world.. OBVIOUSLY.. you get my drift.. I'm a dreamer.

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

I don't want them to call me..

Honestly, I get the impression, you don't want to do anything, just have people pay you for bad service. The world does not work that way dude. If you want to replace your income, you are going to need to provide more than what you are willing to do, a couple sales here and there is not going to do it

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

Honestly, I get the impression, you don't want to do anything, just have people pay you for bad service. The world does not work that way dude. If you want to replace your income, you are going to need to provide more than what you are willing to do, a couple sales here and there is not going to do it

No I do want to do something, I want to build them an awesome website that they can maintain themself.

I just don't want to create an on-going relationship of support because that creates more headaches down the road. Say you do 2 websites a week. Well after a year that is 104, and 2 years that is 208, and 5 years is 520... with 520 past clients to support I'm going to be getting calls every day. Actually at that point it would be fine because I could probably pay a dedicated support staff to handle it, but what about years 1-4? When I'm the only guy?

See in my opinion what is likely to happen is you'll be rolling fine for 6 months to a year doing 2 sites per week and then all of a sudden, so much time will be taken supporting the sites you've done, you will no longer have time or energy to find new business and your residual won't be enough to hired a dedicated staffer to field support calls so you will be dead in water.

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Toby Couchman

11 years ago

You're to cheap IMO. The last Wordpress site I built for a client was a 5k sale.

I do hosting for 385p/year and provide support for free.

I provide site maintenance (adding content, or adjusting design) for 50p/hour.

Still I think I'm too cheap lol. A lot of web designers I know charge in excess of 100 p/hour.

Ive found higher rates equals higher quality clients and you position yourself above the bargain basement site builders.

I was told something when I started in business a few years ago that has resonated with me. "In business, the race to the bottom is not one you want to win".

Best of luck.
TC

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ymest

11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

I HATE what I do for a living right now (realtor). To be truthful the money is good, but I it is hella stressful and kills my social life since I have to work nights and weekends. I'll keep doing it for now, but I want to start a web design business and see if I can fully transition.

I have been there, done that. Worked as a lawyer for several years and threw in the towel after a while. Changes are good.

I've been designing websites off and on since I was a kid, I definitely could not do enterprise level sites but I could definitely make nicer sites than what many small businesses / tradesmen already have (or don't have). I'd plan to use some premium wordpress themes and wptouch pro to offer them mobile optimized versions. Then either do a reseller package or affiliate package for hosting.

Why couldn't you do enterprise level sites...a bit later on when you're established? Nothing's impossible and since you already have some good knowledge, you should keep this option.

My goal for this operation is to make decent money off the design, a small residual off the hosting, and let the business be as stress-free as possible.

This is what I was thinking for package offerings.

Package 1:

Custom Wordpress site up to 6 pages (incl. homepage), mobile optimized, hosted. $400. Hosting Only - $25 month. Hosting & Phone Support - $60

With regards to the quotes here, I'd be a bit concerned about the hosting. I have seen cheaper quotes around, so maybe look it up again.

Package 2:

Custom Wordpress site up to 12 pages (incl. homepage), mobile optimized, hosted. $600. Hosting Only - $25 month. Hosting & Phone Support - $60

Package 3:

Package 2 + $40 per extra page.

Add-ons:

Ecommerce - quoted
Logo Design - $400
Email Support - 1 year included with hosting only. Always included with Hosting & Phone support.

What do you think? Am I going to lose clients by not including support? I'd really rather be wham bam thank you mam and not support them at all... Are my design services on the expensive end or inexpensive end? Where am I weak? Where am I strong?

Your strength are definitely your knowledge, your plan ( so many have no proper business plan etc) It's not your case.

Weak? Could review some of the quotes but then again, it's up to you. Sometimes, higher prices attract people that are fed up with cheap services etc...

Not including support could be a problem. People are picky and need that "support" system/ option in place...just in case. Some will never use it whilst others will abuse it LOL! I used Hostgator and I find their support quite amazing. Again, up to you but it could be a "plus"!

Anyway, good luck in your endeavors and keep us updated!

Yoan

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Toby Couchman

11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

What do you think? Am I going to lose clients by not including support? I'd really rather be wham bam thank you mam and not support them at all... Are my design services on the expensive end or inexpensive end? Where am I weak? Where am I strong?

Long term you'll lose clients by not providing support. In the website biz people want too be advised which is a good thing as it opens up opportunities for upsells and additional services.

To get the most of of a customer you need to be contacting them in some way at least once a week. This can be via a blog, social media, support ticket etc.

IMO wam bam is the wrong way to look at it. Rather "how can I best help this person" is my approach.

Cheers
TC

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iAmNameLess

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TolyZ

Who pays more then $10 for hosting now days?

Lots of people... we have a ton of clients paying $350/year for hosting.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I hope you have a dynamite portfolio for the prices you want to charge. As an example, you are charging more for a logo than some of the top logo designers on Elance.

$400 for a 6-page Wordpress site? They better be some dynamite design and incredible copy for that price.

Actually... those prices are very low. Most web design companies are charging $1,000+ for a basic 5 page wordpress site. For logos, I talked to a client of mine a couple days ago who paid $1,800 for his logo, and his logo sucks...

Coming on the WF in this part of the forum, of course people are going to say the prices are too high... When you look at the real world, you see that these prices would be considered low balling, and even amateur. Elance, odesk, etc. are not known by 99% of business owners. Hell, I would even say at least 75% of business owners don't even know they're interested until you make contact with them.

It IS a numbers game... X amount of people are out there that can pay your price, and are in need of what you have to offer. You just have to get in front of them.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

Actually... those prices are very low. Most web design companies are charging $1,000+ for a basic 5 page wordpress site. For logos, I talked to a client of mine a couple days ago who paid $1,800 for his logo, and his logo sucks...

The guy who did the Toy R Us logo charges $400 per logo. Like I said, he'd better have a dynamite portfolio. In the design world, a portfolio is a must. What a "web design company" as in professionals charge and what someone who "wants to be a web design company" can charge are not the same thing.

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The guy who did the Toy R Us logo charges $400 per logo. Like I said, he'd better have a dynamite portfolio. In the design world, a portfolio is a must. What a "web design company" as in professionals charge and what someone who "wants to be a web design company" can charge are not the same thing.

It's funny how I just entered real estate and immediately started charging people 6% to sell $500,000 homes same as the top agents in the country. That was $30,000 to take some pictures, print some brochures, mail some postcards, put out a lockbox, and enter it into the MLS.. everybody gets to where they are form where they were. I mean I didn't take a $500,000 listing my first day with my license, but I'm just saying I always charged what others charged.

Honestly, most people are not very discriminate. I don't remember who in the hell was the first home owner to hire me to sell their home but they didn't even ask me how long I'd been in the business or how many homes I'd sold! I didn't even know them either! If you play the numbers game, you just have to be there. For the logo I was going to charge $400 because you can put it on logo arena for $250 and get about 20 entries.. lol.. that's how I got my logo.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

It's funny how I just entered real estate and immediately started charging people 6% to sell $500,000 homes same as the top agents in the country.

Selling a product that exists, such as a house and creating the house to sell it are not quite the same. But good luck to you anyway.

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iAmNameLess

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The guy who did the Toy R Us logo charges $400 per logo. Like I said, he'd better have a dynamite portfolio. In the design world, a portfolio is a must. What a "web design company" as in professionals charge and what someone who "wants to be a web design company" can charge are not the same thing.

I still disagree... People are out there that buy web design services every day, without seeing prior work, and without even being in the same area as the person. My sales staff gets people all the time that buy something and they don't even know how to check email, or even use a computer. It boils down to, is there a need for what you have to offer, and can people pay the price you're charging?

What's the difference between a $200 website and a $2,000 website? Probably positioning, and how many numbers you want to go through before you get a yes.

I believe the OP is light years ahead of most people on here responding... People giving him a hard time because he doesn't want people to call him with changes, but what he is providing is a unique selling point, and adding value to the client. Think about the angle he can use, "Never have to depend on a website guy again" "Take control of your website", "websites so easy you can make changes to yourself". What he's wanting to do is what major web companies are also doing.

The city where I live, has spent $110,000 on their website... why so much? Because the average quote they were given was $45,000. Why didn't they go for the cheap one? Perceived value.

The same thing happens every day on craigslist... you get a bunch of people offering 5 page websites for $99-199. When we post on CL, are cheapest package is $1199. People call us, because most business owners associate lower prices with lower quality. We stick out like a sore thumb because of the price difference.

Positioning matters.... You don't need to be the lowest price, highest price, you just need to be able to find the people that need your services and willing to pay your prices.

A buddy of mine is in college for graphic design, and he started his own graphics company on the side selling logos starting at $800.

Price doesn't matter nearly as much as value.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

I still disagree... People are out there that buy web design services every day, without seeing prior work, and without even being in the same area as the person. My sales staff gets people all the time that buy something and they don't even know how to check email, or even use a computer. It boils down to, is there a need for what you have to offer, and can people pay the price you're charging?

It also boils down to whether or not you can actually deliver what they want and need, irregardless of the price you charge.

I freelanced on Elance in the Graphic Design category for over six years and the very first thing prospects wanted to see was my portfolio. Then and only then were they willing to talk specs and price.

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iAmNameLess

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It also boils down to whether or not you can actually deliver what they want and need, irregardless of the price you charge.

I freelanced on Elance in the Graphic Design category for over six years and the very first thing prospects wanted to see was my portfolio. Then and only then were they willing to talk specs and price.

Fair enough... but there is a huge difference between elance, and the offline world.

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jpsween88

11 years ago

You might be better off going to freelancer, elance, odesk and find people looking for websites and build relationships with those people so that they will cont. to buy a website/package through you.

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

I just don't want to create an on-going relationship of support because that creates more headaches down the road. Say you do 2 websites a week. Well after a year that is 104, and 2 years that is 208, and 5 years is 520... with 520 past clients to support I'm going to be getting calls every day. Actually at that point it would be fine because I could probably pay a dedicated support staff to handle it, but what about years 1-4? When I'm the only guy?

That's what you want them to do, call you. People charge $50, $100 or even more per hour to do maintenance, and if you are the only one providing support years from now, then you are doing it wrong. If you get that big, and hopefully you do, you will be able to outsource that stuff, so you can focus on expanding.

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dietmtndew

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

That's what you want them to do, call you. People charge $50, $100 or even more per hour to do maintenance, and if you are the only one providing support years from now, then you are doing it wrong. If you get that big, and hopefully you do, you will be able to outsource that stuff, so you can focus on expanding.

Oh well sure I'll do it for $100 per hour.. I meant I didn't want to include it as part of the package..

Thanks
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Alex Blades 11 years ago

Originally Posted by dietmtndew

Oh well sure I'll do it for $100 per hour.. I meant I didn't want to include it as part of the package..

Then don't, it's your choice. The warriors here are entrepreneurs, so you can't blame them for offering you advice on how not to leave money on the table
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- dietmtndew 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alex Blades
  
  Then don't, it's your choice. The warriors here are entrepreneurs, so you can't blame them for offering you advice on how not to leave money on the table
  
  Well in my original plan I'm offering hosting + support for $60 per month which is a $420 per year up charge from just hosting. So that would be figuring they are going to ask for 4 hours of support on average.. is that a high or low estimate?
  
  Anyways the heart of my original business plan is to target businesses that just need a virtual business card. They don't need it to be updated unless they change their phone number. They want a website for the sake of having a website. About us, our location, services, hours, contact us, testimonials, etc. so unless they move or change their hours or phone number the site is fine untouched.
  
  Thanks
  
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Toby Couchman

11 years ago

You can outsource the hosting support quite cheaply.

Checkout American-Based Outsourced Helpdesk Support by XeSupport

Thanks

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

so unless they move or change their hours or phone number the site is fine untouched.

That is true if they have no announcements, sales, discounts, new products, menus, etc. That may work for a adsense site, but not for brick and mortar business

Anyways, have to take my kids shopping, good luck with your business venture.

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GFox

11 years ago

I think that your prices for the design work may be a bit low, and your logo price is a bit high. Realize that most people have no idea what the going rate is for web design work, and if you price it too cheaply, then they will accept your work as such. I met a business owner who recently spent $12,000 on a website that I would have built for around $2500-3500, and at your pricing it would be $600 or thereabout. See yourself as a confident professional and charge what you are really worth. Of course, some mom and pop businesses, such as beauty parlors and daycare centers may be unlikely to afford top dollars for a site, so they will balk at $1500+, but $600-800 may be the sweet spot for them. I would never sell a site for less than that - and that's on the very low side.

Other than that, I say go for it!

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JamesHellwig

11 years ago

"I HATE what I do for a living right now"

I've never understood why people don't get a job they like :/ Maybe it's greed. Or am I just fortunate to have had a job for over a decade doing something that I love? Hmmm.

Thanks
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Joel Young

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JamesHellwig

"I HATE what I do for a living right now"

I've never understood why people don't get a job they like :/ Maybe it's greed. Or am I just fortunate to have had a job for over a decade doing something that I love? Hmmm.

Many times it's matter of having no choice. The family (or yourself alone) needs food, clothing and shelter; there are bills to pay. If the only jobs available are hateful, it's still a job. ....or go on welfare. Nothing wrong with that if necessary, but there's a social stigma attached to it, and very hard to get out from under it.

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DaniMc

11 years ago

You need to be over in the offline marketing forum talking about this.

The people here telling you to lower your prices don't know what they are talking about.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan McCoy

You need to be over in the offline marketing forum talking about this.

The people here telling you to lower your prices don't know what they are talking about.

You did read that he was just going to install Wordpress with a premium theme and a mobile plugin ... right? People are throwing the word "website designer" around in this thread when clearly, that is not what he is offering. He's offering simple Wordpress sites.

Sure, I'm certain that there are some people in the offline world who are truly ignorant of the whole process and can easily be taken for huge prices for not much real work or expertise.

As for the offline clients not being "discriminating," my Elance design clients were very discriminating. The projects I did were for their offline businesses, not online. I did print design, branding, catalogs, brochures, logos, business cards, stationery, etc... all offline marketing materials, and they all fully expected to get their money's worth.

Thanks
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Matt Fulger

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You did read that he was just going to install Wordpress with a premium theme and a mobile plugin ... right? People are throwing the word "website designer" around in this thread when clearly, that is not what he is offering. He's offering simple Wordpress sites.

Sure, I'm certain that there are some people in the offline world who are truly ignorant of the whole process and can easily be taken for huge prices for not much real work or expertise.

As for the offline clients not being "discriminating," my Elance design clients were very discriminating. The projects I did were for their offline businesses, not online. I did print design, branding, catalogs, brochures, logos, business cards, stationery, etc... all offline marketing materials, and they all fully expected to get their money's worth.

You DO know that it doesn't really matter that he is simply installing a
WordPress site with a Premium Theme, right? I mean really, it simply does
NOT matter. As pointed out earlier he has the USP of they can update it
themselves without the need to call him and pay him for simple updates.
My partner and I are doing the very SAME thing right now and charging
WAY more than the OP. Although, we do offer support and even train them
on how to update the site themselves, the fact remains some clients are
more than happy to pay you top dollar for your efforts.

Now, we do get OFFLINE clients who can afford top dollar services, so that
helps. But in some cases, not only do they pay upfront fees of anywhere
from $1500 - $3500, but they also offer commissions from sales on some
products as well. And as much as 50% commissions at that! SO please
quit telling him he's charging TOO much and MUST have one hell of a
portfolio. Cuz you know what? We don't even HAVE a portfolio up at ALL!

Now, I can understand YOUR position as a Graphic Designer, but that is
NOT even CLOSE to the same thing as a "Web Designer" who also offers
a "Logo" service. His main business is NOT to do offline print design as
you are or at least seem to be doing or did. Also, doing print design work
is completely different than doing a digital Logo for their website as I'm
sure you are WELL aware, considering you do or have done print design.

I'm not trying to to step on your toes here, but you really should quit
trying to convince him that he's charging too much just because he's
using the awesome power of WordPress and Premium Themes. It's not
like he can simply install the script and theme and call it a day. There
is still a good bit of back-end work to be done after installation.

Now, I will admit that many of us here on this forum can install and
setup a WordPress site rather quickly. However, that does not mean
that your average Joe can do the same thing. In fact, the vast majority
of offline people I meet have no idea what WordPress even is, much less
know how to install it, customize it and add content to it. That's why
we teach people how to add content to it, because they have NO clue
and sometimes even after training them, they would still rather hire us
to do it for them.

Anyway, to the OP, charge whatever YOU feel you are worth, don't offer
discount services just cuz people here on this thread have no clue how
to offer their services to top dollar clients at a higher price than they
are used to charging.

I used to listen to the advice of people saying to offer lower prices, but
in the end that wasn't working out very well at all. It's no joy when you
offer a lower price and then get stuck doing way more work than you
bargained for. It's much more enjoyable if you quote a higher price than
you needed to and then end up giving them a discount as a "valued
customer" (and then possibly upsell SEO services) than it is to get stuck
kicking yourself for charging too little of a price and end up hating the job
at hand.

Just my 2 cents.

[ 2 ] Thanks
2 replies

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

Now, I can understand YOUR position as a Graphic Designer, but that is NOT even CLOSE to the same thing as a "Web Designer" who also offers a "Logo" service. His main business is NOT to do offline print design as you are or at least seem to be doing or did. Also, doing print design work is completely different than doing a digital Logo for their website as I'm sure you are WELL aware, considering you do or have done print design.

My main business was both web and print design, often creating the entire company brand both offline and online, but I did not simply install Wordpress and some plugins. I custom designed a site consistent with the rest of their branded marketing materials and developed the content for the site.

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

I'm not trying to to step on your toes here, but you really should quit trying to convince him that he's charging too much just because he's using the awesome power of WordPress and Premium Themes. It's not like he can simply install the script and theme and call it a day. There is still a good bit of back-end work to be done after installation.

Right. Installing that mobile plugin really takes a lot of time and effort. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

Now, I will admit that many of us here on this forum can install and setup a WordPress site rather quickly.

So easy, even a caveman can do it. :p

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

However, that does not mean that your average Joe can do the same thing. In fact, the vast majority of offline people I meet have no idea what WordPress even is, much less know how to install it, customize it and add content to it. That's why we teach people how to add content to it, because they have NO clue and sometimes even after training them, they would still rather hire us to do it for them.

He has stated that he'd rather not be involved in any kind of support for his customers.

Thanks
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wakeforce139 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Right. Installing that mobile plugin really takes a lot of time and effort. :rolleyes:
So easy, even a caveman can do it. :p

Not to get too involved in the back and forth but I do want to just point out that I have a lot of friends and family that think I'm a genius when I show them even my basic WP websites. They are lost.as.hell. No clue about that "internet stuff." These are people in their 20s as well as older people. One of my buddies tried to build his own site using WP and I had to help him and I can see now how it would be confusing if you are just starting out. Now that he got over the hump of his first install he gets it pretty easily of course but that barrier to entry is larger than you might think.

Just pointing out that to those outside of our lifestyles and experiences, making a website can seem daunting.
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Matt Fulger

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

My main business was both web and print design, often creating the entire company brand both offline and online, but I did not simply install Wordpress and some plugins. I custom designed a site consistent with the rest of their branded marketing materials and developed the content for the site.

In that case, if you are charging less than the OP, I have the firm belief
that you are underselling your services and only hurting yourself. Trying to
convince others to undersell their services too is simply ridiculous.

Maybe you should have more confidence in your skills and charge more
for your valuable time and skills.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Right. Installing that mobile plugin really takes a lot of time and effort. :rolleyes:

Maybe not for US, but for many clients they don't even know what WordPress
is and therefore have obviously never even heard of plugins for it. Which means,
they don't have a CLUE where to even begin. OR they may simply not have
the TIME to do it themselves or at least they don't think they do anyway.

Look, I've tried to show people how EASY this stuff is and in many cases
they don't even wanna hear it, they just want someone else to do it for
them.

You don't seem to be taking into account that there are still a shitload of
people that are scared of even attempting to build their own website even
when you try to show them how easy it is to install WordPress, Themes and
Plugins.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

So easy, even a caveman can do it. :p

Agreed. But try to tell that to a client that has NEVER even heard of WordPress.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

He has stated that he'd rather not be involved in any kind of support for his customers.

He did originally say that, but he also reiterated that he's not against supporting
his clients for an additional fee.

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

In that case, if you are charging less than the OP, I have the firm belief
that you are underselling your services and only hurting yourself. Trying to
convince others to undersell their services too is simply ridiculous.

Maybe you should have more confidence in your skills and charge more
for your valuable time and skills.

I never said I charged less than the OP. My projects started at $400 for a logo and then had add ons, such as a standard stationery package, enhanced stationery package, brochures, website, catalogs ... you get the picture. So a project could start at $400 and end up in the thousands, and that's pretty much where I made my money ... from repeat business. Of course, I had no shortage of new customers as well.

I personally think it's wrong to bilk people out of money offering "services" like a simple Wordpress install with plugins and calling it web design just because they are ignorant of the facts. But that's just me. I know plenty of people do it.

Thanks
1 reply

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Matt Fulger

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I never said I charged less than the OP. My projects started at $400 for a logo and then had add ons, such as a standard stationery package, enhanced stationery package, brochures, website, catalogs ... you get the picture. So a project could start at $400 and end up in the thousands, and that's pretty much where I made my money ... from repeat business. Of course, I had no shortage of new customers as well.

Well then, why shouldn't he be able to do the same thing? And why are
you speaking in past tense?

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

My projects started at $400 for a logo...

You don't do logos anymore?

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Of course, I had no shortage of new customers as well.

But now you do have a shortage? Did you get burned out on it? Found
something you enjoy doing more and/or more profits from something else?

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I personally think it's wrong to bilk people out of money offering "services" like a simple Wordpress install with plugins and calling it web design just because they are ignorant of the facts. But that's just me. I know plenty of people do it.

I totally agree with you here. I get tired of people acting like installing WP
is all it takes to be a web designer. We don't just do a "simple Wordpress
install with plugins" and call it web design. We work with our clients offering
personal support and also train them how to do the things they want to
learn to do on their own. And we don't HAVE to use WP, but it certainly
is a great way to get a site off the ground very fast.

However, you still don't seem to be taking into account that most clients
don't have a clue what plugins or themes will work best for their needs and
that alone could take them countless hours trying to sift through ALL the
Themes and Plugins, installing and uninstalling, etc. not knowing whether
their site will break or not using various plugins and themes.

That said, I also can't stand all the eBooks out there from WF members
telling you to do exactly what you are complaining about. And just to pour
salt in the wound, many of them will also claim that outsourcing on the
cheap is the way to go about maximizing your profits. When really all that
makes you is a middle-man raking in basically unearned cash for other
peoples efforts. I guess some people are comfortable with that, but I'm not.

Thanks
1 reply

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sbucciarel

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

Well then, why shouldn't he be able to do the same thing? And why are you speaking in past tense?

You don't do logos anymore?

But now you do have a shortage? Did you get burned out on it? Found
something you enjoy doing more and/or more profits from something else?

My concern is that he is an unqualified amateur charging higher end prices for an unqualified amateur. I don't object to professionals getting paid what they're worth, but to misrepresent yourself to clients is wrong, unless of course you're going to outsource it to someone who is qualified and just be the middle man.

I gave up on Elance. It was overrun with offshore providers that US designers had to attempt to compete with in pricing. They used to have a $50 minimum bid for logos, which was too cheap for what Elance clients expected and then to satisfy the lowballers, they removed even that $50 minimum and allowed these people to bid $20 on a logo. I still won projects based on my portfolio work, but I had to put out a lot more bids and they started charging you money for each bid. Prior to that you could just pay them an annual fee for a category and bid as often as you wanted to.

They also allowed offshore providers to list their location as the US, which was pure deception and the customers were mightily confused when they were communicating with people who barely spoke English and only communicated in what would be the middle of the night in the US.

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

I totally agree with you here. I get tired of people acting like installing WP is all it takes to be a web designer. We don't just do a "simple Wordpress install with plugins" and call it web design. We work with our clients offering personal support and also train them how to do the things they want to learn to do on their own. And we don't HAVE to use WP, but it certainly is a great way to get a site off the ground very fast.

However, you still don't seem to be taking into account that most clients
don't have a clue what plugins or themes will work best for their needs and
that alone could take them countless hours trying to sift through ALL the
Themes and Plugins, installing and uninstalling, etc. not knowing whether
their site will break or not using various plugins and themes.

That said, I also can't stand all the eBooks out there from WF members
telling you to do exactly what you are complaining about. And just to pour
salt in the wound, many of them will also claim that outsourcing on the
cheap is the way to go about maximizing your profits. When really all that
makes you is a middle-man raking in basically unearned cash for other
peoples efforts. I guess some people are comfortable with that, but I'm not.

We seem to mostly agree then. What you do is similar to what I did. It involves a good deal of "customer service" and providing value for the money they are spending, and I'm fully aware that even medium end clients will spend thousands in repeat business if you provide value and good customer service.

The OP could make a business out of what he wants to do, but he should really brush up on design so that he could actually customize a Wordpress site to really reflect their business rather than being just a nice premium theme site, actually do some logos for people and get experience doing them and get used to the fact that providing this kind of service to people normally requires a lot of back and forth communication with the client to educate them and know completely what it is they're looking for and hope to accomplish with their site.

Thanks
1 reply

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Matt Fulger

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

My concern is that he is an unqualified amateur charging higher end prices for an unqualified amateur. I don't object to professionals getting paid what they're worth, but to misrepresent yourself to clients is wrong, unless of course you're going to outsource it to someone who is qualified and just be the middle man.

Well, in that case I'd have to agree with you. I was trying to give him the
benefit of the doubt that he either knows what he's doing or will hire someone
who does know.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

...
They also allowed offshore providers to list their location as the US, which was pure deception and the customers were mightily confused when they were communicating with people who barely spoke English and only communicated in what would be the middle of the night in the US.

Well, I can certainly understand why you don't use them anymore. I wouldn't
bother with them either. Thanks for answering my questions. I knew something
must have happened with the past tense usage of your services through elance.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

We seem to mostly agree then. What you do is similar to what I did. It involves a good deal of "customer service" and providing value for the money they are spending, and I'm fully aware that even medium end clients will spend thousands in repeat business if you provide value and good customer service.

The OP could make a business out of what he wants to do, but he should really brush up on design so that he could actually customize a Wordpress site to really reflect their business rather than being just a nice premium theme site, actually do some logos for people and get experience doing them and get used to the fact that providing this kind of service to people normally requires a lot of back and forth communication with the client to educate them and know completely what it is they're looking for and hope to accomplish with their site.

I completely agree with the back and forth communication. If you want clients
to be happy, you simply HAVE to spend a good deal of time communicating
back and forth until you completely understand what they want or you BOTH
end up frustrated and there won't be a whole lot of repeat customers or
referrals, which is where much of your business should/could come from.

I just know from experience how shitty it is to charge too little for your work.

For example:

I used to do script installs of membership sites and various other fairly simple
(to me anyway) installs for $5 - $10 bucks a pop and then still got bitched at
when their script was a buggy piece of crap (many times from fellow warriors)
that had nothing to do with my installation of said crappy script. So I know now
NOT to charge too little for ANYTHING unless I have some kind of upsell plan
in place.

Not to mention, I was almost always too kind hearted to leave my clients high
and dry to customize and configure the scripts when they couldn't figure out
how the admin panels worked. Although my service then was simply to INSTALL
a script, I usually stuck with them on Yahoo or Skype to help them figure out
how the back-end needed to be setup. When in reality, it would have been
faster for me to simply do it FOR them, I almost always would talk them through
it since 90% of the time the script "developer" (read marketer who themselves
had no idea how the script worked) had completely non-existent support.

I don't want to see other people fall into this same situation.

Thanks

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G0nzalez

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Fulger

You DO know that it doesn't really matter that he is simply installing a
WordPress site with a Premium Theme, right? I mean really, it simply does
NOT matter. As pointed out earlier he has the USP of they can update it
themselves without the need to call him and pay him for simple updates.
My partner and I are doing the very SAME thing right now and charging
WAY more than the OP. Although, we do offer support and even train them
on how to update the site themselves, the fact remains some clients are
more than happy to pay you top dollar for your efforts.

Now, we do get OFFLINE clients who can afford top dollar services, so that
helps. But in some cases, not only do they pay upfront fees of anywhere
from $1500 - $3500, but they also offer commissions from sales on some
products as well. And as much as 50% commissions at that! SO please
quit telling him he's charging TOO much and MUST have one hell of a
portfolio. Cuz you know what? We don't even HAVE a portfolio up at ALL!

Now, I can understand YOUR position as a Graphic Designer, but that is
NOT even CLOSE to the same thing as a "Web Designer" who also offers
a "Logo" service. His main business is NOT to do offline print design as
you are or at least seem to be doing or did. Also, doing print design work
is completely different than doing a digital Logo for their website as I'm
sure you are WELL aware, considering you do or have done print design.

I'm not trying to to step on your toes here, but you really should quit
trying to convince him that he's charging too much just because he's
using the awesome power of WordPress and Premium Themes. It's not
like he can simply install the script and theme and call it a day. There
is still a good bit of back-end work to be done after installation.

Now, I will admit that many of us here on this forum can install and
setup a WordPress site rather quickly. However, that does not mean
that your average Joe can do the same thing. In fact, the vast majority
of offline people I meet have no idea what WordPress even is, much less
know how to install it, customize it and add content to it. That's why
we teach people how to add content to it, because they have NO clue
and sometimes even after training them, they would still rather hire us
to do it for them.

Anyway, to the OP, charge whatever YOU feel you are worth, don't offer
discount services just cuz people here on this thread have no clue how
to offer their services to top dollar clients at a higher price than they
are used to charging.

I used to listen to the advice of people saying to offer lower prices, but
in the end that wasn't working out very well at all. It's no joy when you
offer a lower price and then get stuck doing way more work than you
bargained for. It's much more enjoyable if you quote a higher price than
you needed to and then end up giving them a discount as a "valued
customer" (and then possibly upsell SEO services) than it is to get stuck
kicking yourself for charging too little of a price and end up hating the job
at hand.

Just my 2 cents.

Thank you!

Thanks

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Brian Tayler

11 years ago

"Cost" is such a relative factor when comparing it to others. It would really depend on your current portfolio and expertise before anyone could judge accurately. However even then you'll receive a wide-range of criticism. Are your prices acceptable for your market? Possibly, no way to know without testing though.

For instance... I know many graphic designers personally, and also work with a major web development firm... but if your work was stellar, it could be reasonable.

Regarding hosting... are you just buying cheap reseller hosting somewhere or are you a "Network Wizz" that knows all about cacheing (especially with Wordpress sites) and knows not to run Apache but nginx or litespeed for high-volume Wordpress sites? Do you understand load-balancing and DoS attacks? Are you up on all security patches when they need implemented? Are you tweaking Wordpress (and your other apps) to perform the best for your clients? If the answer to all these is "yes" then $25/mo is pretty reasonable.

But if you're a kid who thinks they can go get a shared/reseller plan from HostGator, DreamHost, or the like... and resell it for profits... you'll end up frustrated and with a lot of frustrated clients eventually.

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Sarevok

11 years ago

I know a wealthy lawyer in Boston MA, and his network printer was always broken.

Every time he called his tech support guy, it cost him about $2,000.

Now, he could have easily called the geeksquad for $100, but he always called his own tech support guy.

Was his private tech support guy superior to geek squad? Probably a little, but was it really worth $1,900 more?

That's for you to decide.

What I can tell you, is that the lawyer was happy to pay him.

Food for thought.

"You know the difference between a Limo driver and a Taxi driver?
The Limo driver wears a suit."-Bobby the Brain

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