Do You Have Any Responsibility At All?

11 years ago

If you had a crappy old computer with Windows 95 that you got from the local mom and pop computer store and did nothing with it until you were cleaing out your house one day, and realized that it was old and no longer relevant, are they reposnsible?

All of the poducts were available and viable at the time of purchase. If you didn't take action on them, that's your fault.

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by drewfioravanti

If you had a crappy old computer with Windows 95 that you got from the local mom and pop computer store and did nothing with it until you were cleaing out your house one day, and realized that it was old and no longer relevant, are they reposnsible?

All of the poducts were available and viable at the time of purchase. If you didn't take action on them, that's your fault.

Isn't comparing a tangible good (pc) to on online training course, apples to oranges? I have complete control over the pc, I have no control over the membership site.

How long do you think a product should remain viable?

If I buy it and it closes 61(out of ClickBank Warranty) days after I bought it is that OK?

If I buy a plugin and it stops working on the next Wordpress upgrade is that Ok?

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SunilTanna

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Blase

If I buy a plugin and it stops working on the next Wordpress upgrade is that Ok?

you're being unreasonable if you expect the seller to upgrade your software for free forever more, unless they explicitly promised it.

(can you get Microsoft multi plan to run on a current PC? If not, why not? Heck I bought the cpm version in 1982 for $300! damn it the owe it to their customers, etc...., no they dont, it still works on a cpm machine, the customer broke it by changing to an nsupported platform)

The seller is being foolish if they don't say what their upgrade policy is.

Fwiw I give free updates, but when I do I always say that any updates I make will be free, but I dont guarantee that there will be updates

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

you're being unreasonable if you expect the seller to upgrade your software for free forever more, unless they explicitly promised it.

Sunil, I didn't say that I expect upgrades forever. :confused:

I asked a question...
"If I buy a plugin and it stops working on the next Wordpress upgrade is that Ok?"

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SunilTanna

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Blase

Sunil, I didn't say that I expect upgrades forever. :confused:

I asked a question...
"If I buy a plugin and it stops working on the next Wordpress upgrade is that Ok?"

Sorry if I was unclear, I was trying to make a general answer to your question (I didn't intend to assume you had taken a particular position).

A sensible seller would make clear what their policy is regarding upgrades.

A sensible buyer would not buy without that clarity, and not assume free upgrades forever.

Realistically a seller can not promise to support future revisions of third party platforms (be they Windows, iOS, Wordpress, or whatever) forever for free, because they do not know and can not control what the platform vendor may do in future.

So the specific answer to your question is it depends. It's okay if the seller says "I only support this version of Wordpress". It's not okay, if the seller says they will support future versions up to some date.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Blase

Hey John how you doing,

I'm not angry, disappointed, yes.

In a brick and mortar setting I agree with what you said.
Online, a site can stay up for the cost of a URL and hosting.

In these days of constant security upgrades, hacking, etc., you can't just pay the URL and hosting for much beyond a simple html site anymore. If you aren't going to maintain the site, it's safer to flip the switch and end things. Would you feel better if the site was still there, but hacked to install something nasty when you visited?

Originally Posted by Blase

In another comment I also said that if a seller can continually email to sell me more stuff they surely can email me to tell me their stuff is going away.

No disagreement here. Sometimes there is a lag, though.

A few years ago, I got a newspaper supplement with the 'best of' in the area, as voted by subscribers. One particular restaurant intrigued me, so I stopped there for lunch. According to the big orange sticker across the doors, the health department shut them down a few months prior and they never reopened. Yet they were still advertising. I finally called the paper and asked the editor what was going on. Apparently, they had prepaid for their ads and never cancelled, so the paper ran them as scheduled.

You might be seeing someone's autoresponder running on its own until a prepaid hosting runs out.

Of course, there are also cheating weasels out there who should be forced to endure their own marketing practices...

Originally Posted by Blase

Believe me I know stuff happens, I've had to get rid of all of my clients twice in the last 11 years. My son died in 2002 so I shut down for awhile and I had to take care of my father from 2007 thru 2011. But I didn't just walk away, I made sure they knew what was going on and that they where taken care of.

As did I during the last couple of years of my late mother-in-law's life. My condolences on both of your losses...

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

In these days of constant security upgrades, hacking, etc., you can't just pay the URL and hosting for much beyond a simple html site anymore. If you aren't going to maintain the site, it's safer to flip the switch and end things. Would you feel better if the site was still there, but hacked to install something nasty when you visited?

Good point.

As did I during the last couple of years of my late mother-in-law's life. My condolences on both of your losses...

My condolences to you and your wife also. I have to admit the amount of illness and death that we just see on the Warrior forum is amazing to me.
Maybe that's another lesson sellers can get out of this.

HOW DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED?

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

Sorry if I was unclear, I was trying to make a general answer to your question (I didn't intend to assume you had taken a particular position).

A sensible seller would make clear what their policy is regarding upgrades.

A sensible buyer would not buy without that clarity, and not assume free upgrades forever.

Realistically a seller can not promise to support future revisions of third party platforms (be they Windows, iOS, Wordpress, or whatever) forever for free, because they do not know and can not control what the platform vendor may do in future.

So the specific answer to your question is it depends. It's okay if the seller says "I only support this version of Wordpress". It's not okay, if the seller says they will support future versions up to some date.

We agree, again if anyone is reading this, I think a lesson is that before you
buy anything if your questions are not addressed in the sales letter, ask the
important questions before you buy.

From a sellers perspective there is probably some great selling points in
this whole discussion.

I also don't think free upgrades for life should be an expectation unless stated in the sales letter. I started programing for NCR back in 1974 so I know
what a hassle things can be to upgrade and you should get paid for your time.

From a sellers point of view it not a good business model to offer free upgrades unless you charge HUGE amounts for your products and build in the upgrades. Of course then they are harder to sell. :rolleyes:

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WillR

11 years ago

I think you have a responsibility also.

You can't purchase something and come back a year later expecting it to work. Well you can, but you might be very disappointed when you do so.

It depends what time frame you are talking about though. You didn't mention that.

A membership site doesn't mean it will still be there 6 months later unless they specifically state that. A membership site is just a way to deliver content to you and it's still up to you to go in after you purchase and use or consume that content within a reasonable time frame.

Everyone has seen those programs or membership sites that say lifetime access. You don't really expect to still be logging into those sites in 40 years time do you?

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agmccall

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

A membership site doesn't mean it will still be there 6 months later unless they specifically state that. A membership site is just a way to deliver content to you and it's still up to you to go in after you purchase and use or consume that content within a reasonable time frame.

Most vendors that sell access to a membership site sell monthly, yearly, or lifetime. if I purchase a membership on a yearly or lifetime I would expect it to be there for at least a year, more for the lifetime membership. I would also expect an email from the site owner that they are closing down so I can have a chance to grab any info that I had not gotten before. IF you close a site down 99% of the time it does not happen in a split second and as a site owner you have a responsibility to your customers to inform them. Even if it is a piece of software, send an email, let people know.

just my opinion

al

al

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I think you have a responsibility also.

You can't purchase something and come back a year later expecting it to work. Well you can, but you might be very disappointed when you do so.

I'm not sure that's true, I think we all have expectations. If Windows 7, Photoshop, Camtasa, all stopped working today I think a lot of people would be ticked.

It depends what time frame you are talking about though. You didn't mention that.

I really don't know what is reasonably, as I said I understand tech does change and some things just won't work anymore, but how about a heads up?

What is a reasonably expectation?

Most of these sellers are happy to use my email address to continualy try to sell me more, but can't tell me when their stuff is going offline?

A membership site doesn't mean it will still be there 6 months later unless they specifically state that. A membership site is just a way to deliver content to you and it's still up to you to go in after you purchase and use or consume that content within a reasonable time frame.

Again what's a reasonable time? How about a heads up?

Everyone has seen those programs or membership sites that say lifetime access. You don't really expect to still be logging into those sites in 40 years time do you?

If it says lifetime I expect it for a longtime, but then again who's life?

I'm willing to bet that the FTC would have an opinion on that, but they
would be that last thing I want involved.

What is a reasonable expectation for lifetime?

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Joseph Then

11 years ago

Based on your reasoning, can I go to Microsoft for the support of my Windows 3.11?

Originally Posted by WillR

Everyone has seen those programs or membership sites that say lifetime access. You don't really expect to still be logging into those sites in 40 years time do you?

I guess this would be the answer. Lifetime access: Not your lifetime, the software's lifetime.

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Mark Singletary 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joseph Then

Based on your reasoning, can I go to Microsoft for the support of my Windows 3.11?

Bad example. Microsoft gives YEARS of notice before ending support.

Mark
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- Blase 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mark Singletary
  
  Bad example. Microsoft gives YEARS of notice before ending support.
  
  Mark
  
  Exactly so what should our customers expect?
  
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travlinguy

11 years ago

Buy quality stuff from quality sellers. Solves about 95% of the issue.

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JamesW3

11 years ago

Do they have a responsibility? NO, unless it is stated in the contract. IS IT A BAD BUSINESS PRACTICE, YES! The least they can do is inform their customers and maybe even give them time to download the material but at least let them know.

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drewfioravanti

11 years ago

I could have bought the best product from the best vendor, but can I really expect to have continual upgrades and availaibility forever?

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Blase 11 years ago

Originally Posted by drewfioravanti

I could have bought the best product from the best vendor, but can I really expect to have continual upgrades and availaibility forever?

I don't think you should get upgrades either unless it is stated in the sales letter, nor did I say that in my post.

But again how long should something work?
How long should something be available?
How hard is it to send out a heads up?
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salegurus

11 years ago

Blase, i know what you are saying, i have also purchased a few products in the past that were either abandoned or disappeared completely.
And just to clarify, i'm not taking years but a few months down the line, coincidentally these products were all WSO's...
But iv'e also purchased products that are still updated and supported years after the purchase, Market Samurai, Headway Theme,DigitalAccessPass, Traffic Travis to name a few.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Blase, I understand your anger/disappointment.

The truth is that if a business fails, it fails. There's no big notice or notification. The doors get locked and the lights shut off for the last time, and that's that. It doesn't matter if those doors are physical or virtual.

Heck, the owner may feel responsible. They just may not be able to do anything about it, within reason.

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Blase, I understand your anger/disappointment.

The truth is that if a business fails, it fails. There's no big notice or notification. The doors get locked and the lights shut off for the last time, and that's that. It doesn't matter if those doors are physical or virtual.

Heck, the owner may feel responsible. They just may not be able to do anything about it, within reason.

Hey John how you doing,

I'm not angry, disappointed, yes.

In a brick and mortar setting I agree with what you said.
Online, a site can stay up for the cost of a URL and hosting.

In another comment I also said that if a seller can continually email to sell me more stuff they surely can email me to tell me their stuff is going away.

Believe me I know stuff happens, I've had to get rid of all of my clients twice in the last 11 years. My son died in 2002 so I shut down for awhile and I had to take care of my father from 2007 thru 2011. But I didn't just walk away, I made sure they knew what was going on and that they where taken care of.

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by salegurus

Blase, i know what you are saying, i have also purchased a few products in the past that were either abandoned or disappeared completely.
And just to clarify, i'm not taking years but a few months down the line, coincidentally these products were all WSO's...
But iv'e also purchased products that are still updated and supported years after the purchase, Market Samurai, Headway Theme,DigitalAccessPass, Traffic Travis to name a few.

There are definitely good sellers out there.

I had to LOL, I bought a WSO that disappeared less than 30 days after I bought it.

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Alex Mensah

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Blase

Software programs that don't work and when you try to update you get an error or the url is gone, parked or for sale. This happened with a product that is still being sold along with others.

Ran into this a couple of times before but needless to say it's not everyone that does that's why I suggest buying from reputable sellers and once you have purchased the product find a way to get the product owners contact not just their support desk or even their skype so that in case shit happens you can contact them on a personal level. I know some wont give this info out but for the ones that do you have a backup way of contacting them.

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SunilTanna 11 years ago

The first commercial software I wrote was in the mid 1980s. But guess what, it still works on the original platform: Atari ST.

If you bought it in 1987, I don't think it would be reasonable to come back to me now, and say "it doesn't work on my current computer". Things change
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talfighel

11 years ago

Just because you got into a membership site today, does not mean that it will be here in 1 year.

There are 2 reasons why I think they closed their doors.

1. They wanted to make a lot of money and because things were not working too well for them, they decided that it was not worth it to continue.

2. They had a goal of some sort of income to reach and when they reached it, they did not want to keep that site running so they closed doors. I had a few programs that I was promoting. They were paying us affiliates for about a year and a half. They were the nicest people and their offer converted really well for everyone. They also paid on time every week.

Then one day they decided that they don't want to have any more affiliates promoting for them, so they withheld our commissions and continued to sell their program without affiliates.

That is called MALICIOUS intentions on their part.

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ceenote100

11 years ago

The internet is always changing constantly. What may have worked a couple of years ago may not work today. It's your responsibility to keep up with the times or be a game changer yourself.

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SunilTanna

11 years ago

How many years ago are we talking btw?

Over a period of years businesses go out of business, and people die, etc. I'm sure that is a factor too.

Incidentally, even in the case of Microsoft I don't remember ever being actively notified about product retirement. I read about it in the news. You get years notice with windows, but not nearly so much for their loss popular products.

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Mark Singletary

11 years ago

On the Microsoft thing maybe I know more because I'm a partner, have supported their products in businesses small and large for many years, used to be certified, and am on a bunch of their email lists.

People that register their MS products with MS will get email updates about ending of support (in theory anyway).

My point in it being a bad example wasn't that I expect Windows 3.11 to work necessarily on today's hardware but to say don't bring MS into it as an example of vendors not being fair to customers when they do try to keep their customers notified.

Another point is that MS uses the end of support as a selling point to get you to upgrade to the next biggest and best version. They aren't in it for one shot WSO type payday but use the end of support to make more money.

I think anyone expecting a product to last forever and be updated forever for one low price is delusional.

What I took out of what the OP meant was:

1. Don't pretend there will be updates if you don't plan them or don't ever look to improve the product. "Lifetime updates" as a bullet point is a lie if none are ever in the works.
2. Some reasonable period of usefulness is implied and inferred but perhaps it should be written out more clearly.
3. If you are going to quit supporting the product, shut down your site, go get a real job or whatever it may be, have the common courtesy to give your customers plenty of notice.

Mark

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Blase

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

On the Microsoft thing maybe I know more because I'm a partner, have supported their products in businesses small and large for many years, used to be certified, and am on a bunch of their email lists.

People that register their MS products with MS will get email updates about ending of support (in theory anyway).

My point in it being a bad example wasn't that I expect Windows 3.11 to work necessarily on today's hardware but to say don't bring MS into it as an example of vendors not being fair to customers when they do try to keep their customers notified.

Another point is that MS uses the end of support as a selling point to get you to upgrade to the next biggest and best version. They aren't in it for one shot WSO type payday but use the end of support to make more money.

I think anyone expecting a product to last forever and be updated forever for one low price is delusional.

What I took out of what the OP meant was:

1. Don't pretend there will be updates if you don't plan them or don't ever look to improve the product. "Lifetime updates" as a bullet point is a lie if none are ever in the works.
2. Some reasonable period of usefulness is implied and inferred but perhaps it should be written out more clearly.
3. If you are going to quit supporting the product, shut down your site, go get a real job or whatever it may be, have the common courtesy to give your customers plenty of notice.

Mark

Thank you Mark, you are some one that get's it.

What is the responsibility of the SELLER?
I think your number 3 answers that, at least for me.
What's to bad is it appears that many sellers don't feel that way.

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Do You Have Any Responsibility At All?

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