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Is Listbuilding dead?

by waltersweb
91 replies
Hello Fellow marketers.

This is a longer Storry/question. If you dont have much time to spare, feel free to skip to the bold part.

I have spend well over 2 Years now on trying to find the right spot for me in IM. It had its ups an downs but there was nothing I found to be long term profitable.
I have had a big project lately where I developed a lot of stuff related to helping product sellers with a certain problem most of them have but I came to realize almost none of them was willing to invest into their product (yea... so much for belief in your own product...). So basically I turned up investing a lot of money and time into something that turned up to be a waste of both.
By now I am pretty sick and tired of the whole IM business since it is such a cutthroat world. I mean I can understand that partly. Whoever is making money will keep their mouth shut about it to make sure his niche will not get oversaturated. And once something isn't working anymore or not as well as they were used to, they will write an ebook about it and sell it to others..
I am a university student and prior to doing IM, I was doing some part time job and by now I am about to go back to that because I am so frustrated about this..
I have been to this point before and had my fair shares of hail marys, finding some last thing to try before giving up. But I think this will realy be my last one.

I always had that sentence in my mind that you hear everywhere.. "the money is in the list". So I am trying to get into that market as my last try before ending this journey.

But is it realy still working? I heard that solo-ads were something to keep away from because that market is overfloded and the people that are an the lists are sick and tired of getting 20 emails a day from the different list owners. Alongside adswaps, that are basically the same and you will destroy any list you built once you start adswaping.
And everywhere you read about that magic $1/subscriber/month value that seems to be the avarage revenue for email marketing. But is this realy true?! From what I read, average open rates are somewhere of 10% and clickthrough rates are arround 2-5%. So lets do the math here. The average WSO affiliate offer gets you arround $0.2 per click? Lets say you send out an offer once a week, makes 4 offers a month. And you have a list of 1000 subscribers. So generally you would say you get 20-50 clicks an email, so 80-200 clicks a month. at $0.2 per click, that would generate $16-40 per month wich is $0.01-0.04 per subscriber.
This is only what I read. maybe there is an error in my thinking, if so please let me know!

What is the point of my thread? Honestly? I don't want to waste another half a year building myself a list of 1000 subscribers and end up making 50 bucks a month.
I have seen a lot of praise for all the stuff I already tried but in the end it always came down to a rude awakening. I always dreamed of the posibility of making a living with IM and only studying to have something ready if I somehow failed or everything goes down the drain somehow.

So what am I trying to reach with this thread?
I would like to get some feedback/insight into listbuilding and email marketing. Some facts from people doing it, that can show me whether or not it realy is something I should try.
What I don't want:
-Someone commenting here telling me he is making 10k a month with a list of 50 subscribers and trying to sell me his method. I am tired of that shit.
-Being fed with a spoon. I dont see myself as a noob to IM. To listbuilding/email marketing? Yes! but not to IM. I have seen a lot of stuff, done a lot of things, not all of them glorious, but they all teached me one thing: no one will give you a money making machine. And who claims otherwise is a plain lier.
However, should you be willing to give me some advice or feedback, I would realy apprechiate that!
#dead #email marketing #listbuilding
  • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
    I already did some research and I think I have found a potential way of starting the listbuilding process. If any of you did/are doing this and would like to share some info about how this works out for you, please feel free to do so!
    I am planing on writing an ebook about something specific and once done, I will sell it for a low price. This will be my main stream of direct income and my first stream of subscribers. And then I'll find some sellers/affiliates that are also in a niche very near to my product and I will ask them to mail an offer to their lists for free, where his subscribers will be getting my product for free on a squeeze page. This will be my second (and main?) stream of subscribers.
    Any experience with that?
    Another question that comes to mind: are those subscribers that will get it for free less responsive? I have heard a lot about "freebie seekers" and them not converting well.
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    • Profile picture of the author IamBaksi
      Hi there

      I know how you feel. But please don't give up

      First of I want to say that "Believing in your own product" is not as true in the IM world. Why? Because people create 'products' in IM just to fill their pockets. They don't value their own product over the money they earn from it. Now of course, I'm over-generalizing here because I know some IM'ers who pour their heart and soul into their products. For that, Kudos to them.

      Now, if you're saying that List-building would be your 'last try'. I can guarantee It will. And by that I mean you won't have to go around trying any more new methods because you'll just stick with it.

      I completely agree with your point on List-Building. Those subs that you get from Solo Ads are already on dozens of lists. Personally, looking at my email account I get flooded with offers everyday I'm just sick of opening them (Even unsubscribing them). However, I'd like to add that Solo Ads can be effective if you know where to find Good Solo Ad sellers that adds fresh leads to their list so they don't end up on multiple lists.

      Another point I like to add is that Relationship with your list is KEY. Most people that send me emails are people who don't really give a crap about their subscribers. They just think that by spamming affiliate links in their emails they'll get sales. Nah, screw that. I only read emails from IM'ers who I trust like Alex Jeffreys or Russell Brunson because AT LEAST they don't spam me with affiliate links. Case in point: If you want a Good and responsive list, treat them like gold.

      It's actually good that you're writing an ebook. It's probably just me but If I ever write an ebook, I would write one that stands out from the rest. There are plenty of ebooks around and most of them are garbage, which adds no value at all. Hmm...just to add, you may want to interview Leading Market Leaders. This will boost your book sales by a TON. This not only adds credibility on your part, but also a lot of good stuff for your book.

      Actually this brings me to my other point. Since you have an idea for an ebook, you could sell it as a WSO and Get subs and sales at the same time. (Just a thought)

      About getting someone to email your offer to your list. Hmm...If I have a huge list already, I'm not sure If I want to share it with someone else for free even though I can do a giveaway. This simply reduces the effectiveness of our subs considering that more people are sharing them. You could probably do a JV/Aff Mkting and offer them like a 50% on your ebook or something.

      You really cannot escape the reality of freebie seekers. They are there whether you like it or not. In order for them to join your list, there HAS to be a carrot on a stick, if not they simply won't do it. But here's what I view freebie seekers as. Just like the rest of us, they too want to make money. If not they wouldn't be reading a book on 'How to get 100 subs a day' right? There are many ways to deal with them but personally if you give them an offer they can't resist (Extremely low prices, or a really good deal), they'll bite eventually.

      Final Point: Stick with List-Building and DON'T look back (Try not to get distracted by other methods, I think you know what I mean yeah?)

      All the best to you mate. Take care and good luck!

      Caleb Prince
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      • Profile picture of the author alodie
        Hi Caleb,

        Some of what you said in your post is very true: "First of I want to say that "Believing in your own product" is not as true in the IM world. Why? Because people create 'products' in IM just to fill their pockets. They don't value their own product over the money they earn from it. Now of course, I'm over-generalizing here because I know some IM'ers who pour their heart and soul into their products. For that, Kudos to them."

        I just recently read the "confession" of an Internet marketer, and it shocked me to the core of my being, just reading what he said.
        .
        The IMer was so utterly "bored out of his wits" at how easy it was to get any amount of money that he wanted, whenever he wanted it, that he was having a real challenge continuing his career as an IMer.

        According to him, he could send a simple email to his list, at any time of the day or week, and the money would just start pouring down into his account, as if it was mere water running down through a facet. For that, his online business is boring him to death.

        It got the chills running down my spine, just reading that account.

        Mark you, this IMer is not a "bad" person, by any means. He is just simply good at having learned the "tricks" a little too well. Now, it is making him unhappy.

        Believe or not, I am personally afraid of doing list building, EVEN THOUGH, I am fully aware that in order to survive in an online business, list building is imperative.

        Heaven help us all, is all I can say.

        Very informative post, Caleb.

        Alodie
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Alodie, if you believe that "confession", you may want to get another perspective from this post:
          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post8251226
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          • Profile picture of the author alodie
            Hello John,

            That was an interesting read, indeed.

            Do we all seem a little bit out-of-our-minds these days?

            Somehow, there is a strong sense of "stop-the-world-I-want-to-get-off!"

            The changes on the internet is going so fast, it is causing huge break in our
            exhaling features; if that makes any sense at all.

            People are making money online; and in a lot of cases, lots and lots and lots of cash.

            But that only applies to the chosen few, it seems. The masses are completely confused,
            it seems.

            Well, what a girl to do? ;-)

            Thanks for sharing, John,

            Alodie
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  • Profile picture of the author TryBPO
    Hey Walter,

    I don't know if this is the case for everyone here (I'm sure it's not, in fact), but building our "list" is just another way for us to connect with our readers, listeners, and subscribers.

    I think it's important to remember (or even point out) that you want REAL PEOPLE on the other end of that email address. It's not bots you're collecting, no matter how persuasive the buy fans/followers crowd is on FB, Twitter, etc.

    Make real connections with your readers. Respect them. Earn their trust. It makes "sales" so much easier...
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    • Profile picture of the author techservice
      List building is clearly not dead but open rates have been declining but if your offering quality products / services and your market likes you then they will read and engage with your mails.

      I focus on creating quality offers and my customer list is a byproduct of good work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Willy
    Are you kidding me? List building is dead? I don't think so!

    If you had a quality eBook, software or mini course that may value the end-user, and giving even more value on the upcoming days till you start doing some ad broadcasts on relevant offers, this is where we can say that list building works. However, if you are just giving away a product and spam your list with ads without value, therefore you can say that list building is dead.

    Remember, in order to keep list building alive, we always need to give something to them in great quality.
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    • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
      thanks for the many and fast replies! especially to IamBaksi for his thorough comment.
      Yes I totaly know what you mean I had to contact a lot of sellers to offer them my services and therefor I needed to get their contact info so I went through their salespages.. and at least one in 5-10 made me pause for a moment and realy take a look at the offer
      However, for my plan: I was planing on partnering with only 2 or 3 big players in the niche and along with giving them my ebook for free, I was going to recommend their products in my ebook. Would this make it more appealing?

      Thanks to Jeff aswell, that was exactly what I was planing to do.

      Edit: Is there someone here that would share some stats with me? Are the values I gave real or is the $1/sub/month more realistic? You can also tell me in private if you don't want to share it publicly
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      • Profile picture of the author IamBaksi
        Sure you could just partner with just 2 or 3 Big players. Personally, I don't think recommending their products in your ebook would do much though. Just about anybody can do that. It's good to think about what goes into your ebook. But bear in mind you need to figure out how you're going to promote it, which is the key.

        As for the stats though... everyone would have different results your sub can bring you 10 cents a month but can also bring you 3 bucks a month. It really depends where you're getting your subs from. But if you put a gun to my head then I would say that generally, yes the market standard would be around $1 a month.
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        • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
          thanks again, very helpful
          One last question about what you said here
          just to add, you may want to interview Leading Market Leaders. This will boost your book sales by a TON. This not only adds credibility on your part, but also a lot of good stuff for your book.
          Are you talking about doing a video interview with them? about their product? or about thoughts for my product?
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          • Profile picture of the author IamBaksi
            Are you talking about doing a video interview with them?
            There are really many ways you can conduct an interview, you could do video interviews/skype/email. But normally if you do a video interview, they would be more passionate in giving you answers. If you do an interview though, they would probably want something back in return. So say you recommend their products in some portion of your ebook, that will do.

            bout their product? or about thoughts for my product?
            It really depends on the direction you're heading with regards to your book. Are you bringing new stuff to the table? Are you collating information and putting them in a book? If you're doing an interview with them, then of course you want most (if not all) of the information in your book to be from them. Ask them questions like 'What made you achieve success so far'. But if you centre your e-book around a particular niche in IM, then you can ask specific questions like 'What are some of the ways you use to generate traffic to your squeeze page' etc. If I were you though I would go this route rather than risking spending time writing your own stuff and hope it sells. Of course if it was me, I would do this then launch a WSO about it. If people sees something like "HOLY CRAP, UNDISCLOSED INTERVIEW WITH ALEX JEFFREYS SHOWS YOU A SECRET METHOD TO GENERATE TRAFFIC."(Just an example) then most of the times, people will spam your buy button. Because ALTHOUGH you aren't an expert. You have gotten invaluable information from one. Which actually isn't much of a difference.

            To add, regarding 'thoughts for your product'. You should try to give review copies to well-known IM'ers so they can come back and give you a review. This could boost the credibility of your Ebook by a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author igrowyourbiz
    . "the money is in the list"
    $1/subscriber/month


    I call BULL PUCKIES on BOTH!

    this is one of the many catchphrases in IM (as you have discovered) that are meaningless and designed to get newbs excited.

    You can make a ton with NO list, you can make squat with a big list

    WHAT YOU DO WITH A LIST (if thats the method you choose) makes the difference. The reality is, there are only 3 main ways to get a good responsive list. 1) STEAL IT (you would be surprised at how many "gurus" SCRAPED their list from emails on the internet from newsgroups and websites and forums 2) BUY IT - yup, buy an actual list from someone, a broker or advertising to a listbuilding 3) SHARE IT - do a jv with someone else and share their list members

    Despite the many lies out there 90% or more of people with responsive lists did it this way

    also just having a list is not enough -you must TRAIN the list to respond AND buy!
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by igrowyourbiz View Post

      The reality is, there are only 3 main ways to get a good responsive list. 1) STEAL IT (you would be surprised at how many "gurus" SCRAPED their list from emails on the internet from newsgroups and websites and forums 2) BUY IT - yup, buy an actual list from someone, a broker or advertising to a listbuilding 3) SHARE IT - do a jv with someone else and share their list members

      Despite the many lies out there 90% or more of people with responsive lists did it this way

      I see you advertise yourself as a "Viral Marketing Expert".

      Does that mean that you are expert as using horse hockey and spin to get attention? :rolleyes:

      How did you come to the decision that there are "ONLY 3 ways to build a responsive list"? (steal it, buy it, or share it)

      And, where do you get your "90% or more" people "did it this way" statistic?
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    • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
      Hi IGrowYourBiz

      Originally Posted by igrowyourbiz View Post

      The reality is, there are only 3 main ways to get a good responsive list. 1) STEAL IT (you would be surprised at how many "gurus" SCRAPED their list from emails on the internet from newsgroups and websites and forums 2) BUY IT - yup, buy an actual list from someone, a broker or advertising to a listbuilding 3) SHARE IT - do a jv with someone else and share their list members

      Despite the many lies out there 90% or more of people with responsive lists did it this way

      also just having a list is not enough -you must TRAIN the list to respond AND buy!
      I don't mind being one of your 10%, but I can't really see why a stolen, bought or shared list should be more responsive than a buyer's list.

      It doesn't seem logical to me, I'm afraid, but of course, you're the expert ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author higherluv
      Originally Posted by igrowyourbiz View Post


      WHAT YOU DO WITH A LIST (if thats the method you choose) makes the difference. The reality is, there are only 3 main ways to get a good responsive list. 1) STEAL IT (you would be surprised at how many "gurus" SCRAPED their list from emails on the internet from newsgroups and websites and forums 2) BUY IT - yup, buy an actual list from someone, a broker or advertising to a listbuilding 3) SHARE IT - do a jv with someone else and share their list members

      Despite the many lies out there 90% or more of people with responsive lists did it this way
      Thanks for the joke... :p

      Anyways, I don't see a promotions tab on my gmail account. Is this still being implemented on gmail?
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  • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
    Hi Waltersweb,

    Have you thought about your sales funnel and planned to make it as
    profitable as possible as soon as you drive traffic to it?

    Have you thought about adding a "RECURRING PAYING" service
    that charges members a monthly fee for as long as they are members.

    This will take most of the hassle of trying to shift 100's of $7 products
    every month.

    That's the last thing you want to have to do.

    You need a sales funnel with several or at least 2 products in it.

    Hope this helps re-ignite your fire my friend!

    All the best
    Gavin
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    • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
      Sales Funnels being autoresponder emails?
      I did a lot of research today and I think that this is the most important key. To have an autoresponder in place to send out high quality and related info every few days for like a week. Then start mixing in free ebooks into the autoresponders and then get an email out twice or so a week, two of which containing free ebooks and one paid and the other way round ect.

      Am I going the right way with this?

      Originally Posted by gcbmark20 View Post

      Hi Waltersweb,

      Have you thought about your sales funnel and planned to make it as
      profitable as possible as soon as you drive traffic to it?

      Have you thought about adding a "RECURRING PAYING" service
      that charges members a monthly fee for as long as they are members.

      This will take most of the hassle of trying to shift 100's of $7 products
      every month.

      That's the last thing you want to have to do.

      You need a sales funnel with several or at least 2 products in it.

      Hope this helps re-ignite your fire my friend!

      All the best
      Gavin
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      • Profile picture of the author IamBaksi
        Originally Posted by waltersweb View Post

        Sales Funnels being autoresponder emails?
        I did a lot of research today and I think that this is the most important key. To have an autoresponder in place to send out high quality and related info every few days for like a week. Then start mixing in free ebooks into the autoresponders and then get an email out twice or so a week, two of which containing free ebooks and one paid and the other way round ect.

        Am I going the right way with this?
        It's great you're doing research. That really is the key Obviously the next key is to put what you learn into action. What I would do is to have my AR send out follow-up emails regarding the product that I've just sold them. If I've sold them a list building product I could for example send them an email showing them where to host their websites etc.

        Ebooks is a great giveaway for your subs. I would also recommend you giving them Internet Marketing Advice. Or tell them about the latest product that has worked for you. What I also like to do is buy a bunch of high quality PLR's and give them away for free to my subs. The Key is to find out the right balance between sending them free stuff and aff links

        Oh and thanks for the info, where can I sign in? lol
        Btw you should sign up for my list
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      • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
        Originally Posted by waltersweb View Post

        Sales Funnels being autoresponder emails?
        I did a lot of research today and I think that this is the most important key. To have an autoresponder in place to send out high quality and related info every few days for like a week. Then start mixing in free ebooks into the autoresponders and then get an email out twice or so a week, two of which containing free ebooks and one paid and the other way round ect.

        Am I going the right way with this?
        Hi,

        Yeah what you can do with your autoresponder is set up a 5 or 10
        sequence to go out automatically.

        This is your chance to sell your own products within that first sequence.

        You then have a chance to get as many buyers onto your
        list from the original prospects you first have.

        For the ones that don't buy within the first 5 - 10 days you
        can place them onto another list knowing that they have gone
        through your sequence...

        ... Then focus on providing further useful tips, you can promote
        other related affiliate products to them...

        ...& direct them to your blog whenever you have produced some
        new content that may be of use to them.

        On your blog you can have your products displayed to help
        remind them you have something to offer.

        This could be where you place your recurring paying program
        option also.

        Just a few things to think about there for you & of course
        nothing has to be set in stone you add your own ideas
        etc to the mix to give yourself a unique look and feel
        when visitors/subscribers visit your blog etc.

        All the best & feel free to ask me any other questions
        you may have no problem at all.

        Regards
        Gavin
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    List building is dead. If you sign up for my list I will show you a better alternative. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author IamBaksi
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      List building is dead. If you sign up for my list I will show you a better alternative. lol
      Hahahaha that made my day
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    • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
      Oh and thanks for the info, where can I sign in? lol
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      List building is dead. If you sign up for my list I will show you a better alternative. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author DavidAtias1
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      List building is dead. If you sign up for my list I will show you a better alternative. lol
      Hahaha,
      I really like that sentence...
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    List building isn't dead, but unfortunately I do believe it will be one day in the nearer future than we'd like.

    The new Gmail tabs are already having an impact (automatically sorting list-based mailings into a "Promotions" tab and out of the main mailbox).

    On average Gmail addresses will account for a third of your email list, and the number continues to grow. If other mail providers or clients follow suit (Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple), then we'll reach a point where eventually 90% of your outbound messages will be automatically categorized as a promotion and moved out of the main inbox, without even notifying users that a new message has arrived unless they specifically created a filter for YOUR list to make it a priority.

    I'm already seeing lower open rates on my list, and as a user I personally have a lot of unread mail in my mailbox now. The Gmail tabs have actually changed my behavior regarding email. Previously I would at least read the sender and subject of EVERY email that hit my inbox, then either archive it or read it. But now that all of the list-based messages are hitting the promotions tab, I subconsciously know those are less important. I have a ton of unread messages in the promotions tab that I haven't even glanced at the subject for ... I see the senders like JVZoo etc. and I know what it is and ignore it. Previously I would have at least read what the product of the day was... it's been a couple weeks since I've opened one now.

    Will Gmail Tabs be the Death of Email Marketing?
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian Tayler
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      Interesting read... thanks for that.

      Chuck from Send Reach promises to get past the "Promotions" tab but not sure on how good they really are (as I use aWeber still).
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      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
        Originally Posted by Brian Tayler View Post

        Interesting read... thanks for that.

        Chuck from Send Reach promises to get past the "Promotions" tab but not sure on how good they really are (as I use aWeber still).
        Oh, there are ways around it - the problem is that it's the CAN-SPAM compliance that's tripping it up. I've been doing a lot of testing with this and haven't been able to beat it yet while still being compliant.

        Google is looking at the message source and unsubscribe link.

        If there's an unsubscribe link, it's labeled as a promotion. If the unsubscribe link is renamed or removed, but the message source is a known bulk mailer (mailchimp, getresponse, aweber, etc) it's a promotion. There are probably other variables as well, including how many similar messages are received by Gmail servers.

        For example, I've been able to "beat the system" with my test messages by doing the following:

        1. Not having an unsubscribe link
        2. Sending the message from my own custom-written script, which uses a generic Outlook client header so as not to appear to come from a bulk mailer.

        But there's a problem with that... for one, it's not can-spam compliant, and two even if it were it would only last until I actually sent a message to my ENTIRE list and not just my own test accounts. Because once Gmail saw thousands of messages coming in they would know it was bulk.

        I believe that any "solutions" to this will be temporary, or just automatically go to SPAM.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Clark
      To the OP. Did it ever occur to you that you can't make truck loads of money just selling products. The money is in the back-end of the funnel. But you have know how to set it up. (duh)
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    • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
      Hey!

      As soon as you find a solution for this you can sell it as
      a WSO.

      There will be thousands of people desperate for a solution to
      this if it does happen.

      I'm sure the autoresponder services will find a way around this
      though.

      For every problem there is a solution!

      Thanks for the heads up though appreciate that!

      Regards
      Gavin

      Originally Posted by waltersweb View Post

      Sales Funnels being autoresponder emails?
      I did a lot of research today and I think that this is the most important key. To have an autoresponder in place to send out high quality and related info every few days for like a week. Then start mixing in free ebooks into the autoresponders and then get an email out twice or so a week, two of which containing free ebooks and one paid and the other way round ect.

      Am I going the right way with this?
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      List building isn't dead, but unfortunately I do believe it will be one day in the nearer future than we'd like.

      The new Gmail tabs are already having an impact (automatically sorting list-based mailings into a "Promotions" tab and out of the main mailbox).

      On average Gmail addresses will account for a third of your email list, and the number continues to grow. If other mail providers or clients follow suit (Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple), then we'll reach a point where eventually 90% of your outbound messages will be automatically categorized as a promotion and moved out of the main inbox, without even notifying users that a new message has arrived unless they specifically created a filter for YOUR list to make it a priority.

      I'm already seeing lower open rates on my list, and as a user I personally have a lot of unread mail in my mailbox now. The Gmail tabs have actually changed my behavior regarding email. Previously I would at least read the sender and subject of EVERY email that hit my inbox, then either archive it or read it. But now that all of the list-based messages are hitting the promotions tab, I subconsciously know those are less important. I have a ton of unread messages in the promotions tab that I haven't even glanced at the subject for ... I see the senders like JVZoo etc. and I know what it is and ignore it. Previously I would have at least read what the product of the day was... it's been a couple weeks since I've opened one now.

      Will Gmail Tabs be the Death of Email Marketing?
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        waltersweb, rather than offering your ebook for free to other peoples' lists, why not check into one of the 100% commission deals? More list owners may be interested in mailing for you if they get 100% of the profit immediately.
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        • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
          Thanks for all your answers, realy apprechiate the way this thread is working

          John, yes I also thought about that, and I think this is the way I'll be going. Also I'll need to spend some extra hours on my salespage since this seems to be one of the most important things to take care of.
          But I am planing on selling my ebook and not giving it away for free.
          First of all, it will add a lot of value to it, second I might be able to get in some instant money.
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          waltersweb, rather than offering your ebook for free to other peoples' lists, why not check into one of the 100% commission deals? More list owners may be interested in mailing for you if they get 100% of the profit immediately.
          and about the gmail tab thing: as you said, it's a big chunk of list recipients and the big companies like aweber and getresponse should be able to realize that. So they will do everything they can to keep your emails from that filter.
          (biggest blackhat companies ever?! aweber and GR trying to hack gmails filter?)
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  • Profile picture of the author tiimage
    Success online = high, high quality content. - Little mini blogs or squeeze pages are so yesteryear. If you have high quality content created from people on top of a niche then you can use methods like list building. You can expect growth.

    Starting with a method like list building is the wrong approach. You can't put the cart before the horse. What you need before any of that is to know what your talking about and put forth quality before you can start thinking about things like building lists.
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    • Profile picture of the author searchnology
      In a perfect world I would so agree with this....However if junk food restaurants followed this advice they would never get off the ground. I can make a better burger than McDonald's with my eyes closed. The truth is that good marketing (even sub standard products) will always trump quality product....besides you could always improve quality on the fly and eventually have both.

      Originally Posted by tiimage View Post

      Success online = high, high quality content. - Little mini blogs or squeeze pages are so yesteryear. If you have high quality content created from people on top of a niche then you can use methods like list building. You can expect growth.

      Starting with a method like list building is the wrong approach. You can't put the cart before the horse. What you need before any of that is to know what your talking about and put forth quality before you can start thinking about things like building lists.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    Originally Posted by mikedcarroll View Post

    I read somewhere that one should build their list first and send them to their content. Build up their trust first then start occasionally referring them to products and affiliate links.
    How are you going to build their trust if you aren't sending them to your awesome content?

    Ignore? Send them to other peoples content? Something else?

    As soon as they sign up you need to be mailing them and getting them to check out your stuff so they can figure out quickly that you are the real deal who knows what he is talking about.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
      from an email marketer's perspective i'm not sure that the new gmail tabs are a positive, or maybe i'm just not seeing the angles yet. for what it's worth here's a somewhat optimistic opinion...

      "...Now, some folks might think that having the Promotions tab off to the side like this is a bad thing. But I think that many marketers may find what Gmail has done here to be a hidden boon to their bottom line. If you will notice what Gmail has done, they not only display the number of new emails in the tab, but they also the display names of the brands whose mails are in that tab--presumably from the friendly "from" lines of those emails. I think this will reward companies who have a policy of using recognizable and consistent branding strategies in their emails and who pay attention to the details--whether that's the branding of their "from" lines, their preheaders, or their sending reputations."
      Gmail Updates Reward Recognizable and Consistent Branding - Policy On Purpose | ExactTarget Email Marketing
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      • Profile picture of the author hometutor
        I must admit as a consumer and web surfer I do get tired of giving someone my email address every time I open a web page. I've created a filter with my Yahoo email so that any email with the word unsubscribe in the body goes to a folder I hardly ever look at.

        That said, quality information and a fair price for more information (I also get tired of $49.95 for most of the things I see though I do use that myself) is always appreciated. That was one reason a previous post I made asked about building Twitter followers.

        Here's another phrase I've only heard my former boss and myself use before,

        "Take care of the customers and the money will take care of itself."

        Rick
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    • Profile picture of the author clever7
      Originally Posted by RockingLastsForever View Post

      How are you going to build their trust if you aren't sending them to your awesome content?

      Ignore? Send them to other peoples content? Something else?

      As soon as they sign up you need to be mailing them and getting them to check out your stuff so they can figure out quickly that you are the real deal who knows what he is talking about.
      I believe that this answer was very good.

      I believe that your content is very important even before someone decides to become your subscriber.

      I've seen many times that someone first buys one of my ebooks or my ebook collection, and then he/she subscribes to one of my email lists. I find it funny, but I write so many articles with information, I give away free ebooks, etc. that someone doesn't need to belong to my email list to learn many important details about my work.

      Your content online is very important if you want to be trusted. The internet users are tired. There are so many people trying to make money online without helping anyone that if you want to be respected you have to give free information to the public, before making someone give you their email address.

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  • Profile picture of the author hustlinsmoke
    Im no expert in any field of Internet Marketing. I use experts to help me, but I can tell you how I see it.
    I still build lists.
    I do not use solo ads unless the person is just starting out, then the list is usually fresh.
    I do trade with other marketers that I know because I know they will not burn there list.
    ad swaps are pretty much the same way, you need to look for, I've never done this before so need help, then you know its a fresh list.

    Unless you are selling high ticket items which I do not. Mine are under 100, the 1.00 dollar a email is no longer valid to me. List building has been hurt but it is not dead.

    Depending on the list I make between .25 cents and 1.00 per email and usually average .50 cents.

    Bare bones of list building.
    Build it, seo it, offer a free report or low cost product. Re-pore with your list and work it.

    Do product launches. Do affiliate marketing, do blogs and just do regular ole squeeze pages. It is not impossible to build that list.

    Some of you know for a fact I built 5,000 subscribers in six months working part time.
    I was helping others do wso's though and could throw three a week up or more.

    On a good site with moderate competition I can get 100 emails in a matter of days if I use the right seo expert. I will usually spend 50 bucks on the product I give, my own time on the site and 25 to 40 bucks on the seo every three months.

    I should also state I could build a 5,000 list this month, right now..... Yes I can and so can you. Then you would be doing solos, ad swaps and the like and the list would be really unresponsive.

    I didn't put any of that in any order they were just my thoughts popping up.
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  • Profile picture of the author jwsc101
    I think a list is vital, it provides your annuity income. Email lists are standard but I guess twitter and Facebook lists are now starting to be just as important.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    I think the main reason why most people fail at building a good list is because they don't look at it as a business just an income stream

    When it comes to list building you should have a long term plan and unfortunately most people are short sighted and once they have a few hundred buyers on their list they just hammer them to death with offer after offer

    The best piece of advice I can give anyone is to map out their sales funnel and plan ahead and have an end goal for your customers rather than just keep promoting offers

    It's all a learning curve but just don't sell your soul and be like most people and hammer your list
    until they are burned out
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  • Profile picture of the author rmolina88
    If List Building was dead, I'd still be working a 9-5 job right now.
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    • Profile picture of the author harrydog
      Hi everyone heres my two pennies worth

      I have been in IM for some time and like walt tried all sorts of things to make money. What I did was go back to fundamentals.

      I did a mind map video for one of my products ( I taught people how to create videos using free tools) in that Video I talked about how you should look at what you are interested in and create something around that - until you know what you are doing stay away from the IM niche as how can you teach people how to make money until you are making money - see it all the time.

      Now don't get me wrong I love making Videos (got a WSO running right now) but its "work" i.e. I get paid to create things - no passive income or scalability there.

      So having watched my own video back I got to thinking - as you do!

      I talked about what your passions are and who do you know who you could hook up with. Then the light bulb went on.

      I had always loved horse racing and wanted to own a racehorse (dream on I thought). I used to go racing a lot with some friends and one of them is a real shrewdie. So I approached him with a Plan. We decided to create a website that sold horse racing systems. He had the knowledge and I had the skills after years of trying to make money I could
      Build Wordpress sites
      Create Videos
      Run an Autoresponder
      Create E book covers etc etc.

      So last November we created a system (horse racing system) using an on line database that we found. We actually created 2 systems and you will see why in a minute.

      We drew out the sales funnel, and created a project plan with all the things we needed to do to launch.

      We had a squeeze page that gave away the first system completely free. Now this was a darn good system that has been profitable for the last 7 years so it had a high perceived value and then a follow system to sell another system for £69.
      Now this system came with a daily email service whereby we sent them the qualifiers of the system everyday. This was crucial as it then built a long term relationship with the subscribers. Huge open rates

      We did a lot of research and approached everybody in the same niche who we knew had a list and offered them a great commission split on any sales and of course their list was getting a great free system

      On launch day we got nearly 3300 people on our list - I was blown away. Its a great feeling seeing your Aweber account filling up with double opt ins. We also had a OTO on the download page of the free system which again was a daily email service therefore building the relationship again.

      We then followed up with the £69 offer ( we also tied in with another service that was offering a Free months trial of their service which was normally £49 per month) and they also got the daily e mail service of the first system for free as well so the free offers were worth more than the actual product was selling for.

      Now we had a list and buyers and money coming in ( oh and we get recurring revenue on any body that stays with the service we offered for free for £49 a month) so we now also do affiliate offers for other peoples products in our niche.

      And I am now the proud owner of 10% in a horse through all this and we have just got rights to syndicate horses for a racing club - cant believe it.

      Why am I telling you all this?

      Stop bashing your head against a wall trying to sell stuff you either don't have a clue about or are not interested in. Find something you love doing and spread the word. Money can be made in the weirdest of places.

      I think it will take another 18 months to two years before we are making sufficient money to stop working all together (for other people that is not on the business) but now the hard work is focused and getting us somewhere

      Don't give up you will find your niche and when you do just focus on it.

      Yes building a list is mega important but as someone else said its not the size of your list but what you do with it.
      Our list has generated us over £30,000 in sales since November (before affiliate payments) and we are planning on launching two more products in September.

      It takes time
      It takes focus
      It takes hard work

      And if anybody tells you any different they are lying.

      Forget the "5 click software that gets you 500 opt ins a day" if it was so good why do they sell it as a WSO for 5 bucks!!

      Keep at it and good luck on your journey.

      Sorry just re read this and its all a bit of a rant. - must go to bed!!

      Cheers
      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
        Thanks for the insight mark, glad to see that it also works in smaller niches. But I think you are talking about race betting? So it's kind of the gambleing niche. But congrats anyways since what I heard is that getting into that niche is pretty hard.

        And also thanks to paul, I totaly share your impression!
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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by rmolina88 View Post

      If List Building was dead, I'd still be working a 9-5 job right now.
      You might be a year from now depending on how this Gmail tabs thing plays out. The broad impact remains to be seen.

      The theory that was posted here and referenced on some other blogs, that categorizing promotions can actually increase opens from recognized mailings is one we can cross our fingers for, but I'm really skeptical about the future of email marketing.

      The trick, for many marketers, has always been to make their promotions not look like a promotion. The first hurdle is getting them to OPEN the email, the second is getting them to take action.

      Here's an example... lets say you're on my email list. If you see a message with my name, and the subject captures your attention, you might open it up and read it. I have about a 70/30 content to promotion ratio for my own list - meaning 70% of the time I'm giving you useful information to improve your site and not selling anything, and 30% of the time pumping a product. This keeps my open rates pretty high, because the majority of the time they aren't asked to buy something.

      The question is do those users understand that "Promotions" in Google's world really just means "Any list you're subscribed to whether it's a promotion or not"? That remains to be seen.

      The open rates are lower when someone believes it's a marketing piece, I see it every time I do it. But now Google is essentially telling the user "this is a promotion", EVERY time I mail them, whether that particular email is a solicitation or not. So how likely are they to rush over to the promotions tab, wade through all of the other crap they DIDN'T bother reading, just to find my message? Or yours?

      Like I said, it's all speculation at this point - I certainly don't have enough data to make any definitive statements on the long-term impact, but I do see our world getting shaken up a little bit.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brian John
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian John
          Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post

          Who cares about Gmail? If they don't open, they don't open. Delete them and move on. There are thousands of others waiting to take their place.
          The Internet doesn't begin and end at Google. They are a tiny piece of a giant pepperoni pizza pie.
          Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post

          I'll spend my time worrying about things that actually matter, instead of trying to beat Google.
          considering how big g is in our industry i'm not sure i would dismiss them so quickly. keep in mind there was a time not too many yrs ago when many if not most of us focused primarily on ranking sites through g seo. then, following all the updates, a good majority of us slowly moved more toward other methods, such as yt and fb, w many including myself going largely into paid traffic. the notion was "who needs g, we can simply use paid methods to get consistent and reliable traffic and not have to deal w them and their ever-changing rules." for most of us everything we did and still do is in an effort to build our subscriber list. now what g is doing, if it's not painfully clear yet, is they're craftily attempting to beat us at the level of the subscriber/customer (or at the very least disrupt the interaction) and they have more than enough email market share to make a significant impact. this is very different than them simply making a specific lower-level marketing channel more difficult to be successful in, as the subscriber's inbox is the top of the chain for us marketers, it's our direct link of communication.

          i'm not convinced that the seemingly innocent matt cutts smile isn't really a cheshire grin. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark .W. James
        Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

        You might be a year from now depending on how this Gmail tabs thing plays out. The broad impact remains to be seen.

        The theory that was posted here and referenced on some other blogs, that categorizing promotions can actually increase opens from recognized mailings is one we can cross our fingers for, but I'm really skeptical about the future of email marketing.

        The trick, for many marketers, has always been to make their promotions not look like a promotion. The first hurdle is getting them to OPEN the email, the second is getting them to take action.

        Here's an example... lets say you're on my email list. If you see a message with my name, and the subject captures your attention, you might open it up and read it. I have about a 70/30 content to promotion ratio for my own list - meaning 70% of the time I'm giving you useful information to improve your site and not selling anything, and 30% of the time pumping a product. This keeps my open rates pretty high, because the majority of the time they aren't asked to buy something.

        The question is do those users understand that "Promotions" in Google's world really just means "Any list you're subscribed to whether it's a promotion or not"? That remains to be seen.

        The open rates are lower when someone believes it's a marketing piece, I see it every time I do it. But now Google is essentially telling the user "this is a promotion", EVERY time I mail them, whether that particular email is a solicitation or not. So how likely are they to rush over to the promotions tab, wade through all of the other crap they DIDN'T bother reading, just to find my message? Or yours?

        Like I said, it's all speculation at this point - I certainly don't have enough data to make any definitive statements on the long-term impact, but I do see our world getting shaken up a little bit.


        I do not completely agree with you , Ron

        You are basing your thoughts and judgments on the premises that 'stuff only sells or a list is only responsive if its NOT in the promotions section'.... or ... " if my emails are not in primary, i will get lesser responses"

        People who subscribe to your list already KNOW that you are not an old school buddy but someone trying to sell them something.... its only a matter of them trusting you enough with your recommendations and them needing the product....


        If I am into IM and am looking for something to invest in which will make me shit loads of money, I will most probably check my promotions section before I check any other section and purchase what I need....in which case, the promotions section will actually help me....
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        • Profile picture of the author ronrule
          Originally Posted by Mark .W. James View Post

          I do not completely agree with you , Ron

          You are basing your thoughts and judgments on the premises that 'stuff only sells or a list is only responsive if its NOT in the promotions section'.... or ... " if my emails are not in primary, i will get lesser responses"

          People who subscribe to your list already KNOW that you are not an old school buddy but someone trying to sell them something.... its only a matter of them trusting you enough with your recommendations and them needing the product....
          I get what you're saying, I'm just commenting based on changes I've observed in my own behavior. Like with the JVZoo item of the day, I used to read every single one of those emails. But now since they've been automatically categorized in the promotions tab and I don't see them as unread messages in my primary inbox, I haven't been reading them.

          Instead of just skimming through messages as they come in like I used to, I now have to make a conscious decision to go to the promotions tab and look for them - which I haven't been doing. So as of right now there are about two weeks worth of unread messages in there right now. All of those are messages I would have at least glanced at if they were still going to my primary inbox.

          So that's been my own experience, and I'm wondering how many others are going to end up handling things the same way. I'm concerned because the reason email marketing works is because you're reaching people where their eyes are already going as part of their normal daily routine. With Gmail sorting my mail for me, the "place I naturally look" isn't showing those messages anymore, and I have to take an extra step to look for them. I really only read them before to make the little "Unread" icon on my phone go away in the first place
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian John
          Originally Posted by Mark .W. James View Post

          I do not completely agree with you , Ron
          You are basing your thoughts and judgments on the premises that 'stuff only sells or a list is only responsive if its NOT in the promotions section'.... or ... " if my emails are not in primary, i will get lesser responses"
          People who subscribe to your list already KNOW that you are not an old school buddy but someone trying to sell them something.... its only a matter of them trusting you enough with your recommendations and them needing the product....
          If I am into IM and am looking for something to invest in which will make me shit loads of money, I will most probably check my promotions section before I check any other section and purchase what I need....in which case, the promotions section will actually help me....
          yes, if i'm looking specifically for someone's info i'll check the "promotions" folder first also, but this isn't the main issue. many people become interested in a certain topic or item for sale because they see it in their inbox along with their other mail, not because they're looking for it. this happens to me all the time and i know i'm not unique in this aspect. i'm of the opinion that the more steps away from it being in their inbox, i.e., immediately in front of them, the less response you typically get. after all it's another step they have to take, and it's been shown many times that in general the more steps your prospects/customers have to take, the less responsive they are. i'm not particularly interested in the open rate with one or two people, i'm interested in the open rate with thousands of people. we're not talking about if something will be effective or not, we're talking about the degree to which something will be effective. in other words we're talking about optimization, and i believe the most optimal place for our email to land is immediately in front of them in the most prominent viewing area, the inbox.
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          • Profile picture of the author Edwards WOrld
            Last night I was ready to purchase something I needed from a very well known site, and was waiting for the email that was suppose to be sent to me, I ended up waiting 30 minutes and emailed there support team to say "whats is going on"
            just to realize it was in my stupid promotions next to "GOOGLE ADS" why???


            Google couldn't buy Groupon so slowly they are killing them... Plus adding Ad revenue. This change brings no value to me I wish this turns out bad and users stop using gmail

            I wonder what business build on strictly email will do like Fab.com, thrillist.com, and many more are being killed by this.

            Its true I agree with Ron, I used to check mostly every mail that peeked my interest at the very least but now Nothing, and the effort my finger will use to click on purpose to check something out isn't there

            Its kind of like cold calling.. "Ahh fine what do you want?" an they at the very least listen but now you are sent to a recording automatically to leave a message next to the other 10 guys that called that day...

            Anyone using Send Reach ?

            -Edward
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian Tayler
              Originally Posted by Edwards WOrld View Post

              Google couldn't buy Groupon so slowly they are killing them... Plus adding Ad revenue. This change brings no value to me I wish this turns out bad and users stop using gmail

              Anyone using Send Reach ?

              -Edward
              Don't think send reach (list animal) has enough skin yet or traceable results (over time) to say much yet. But I brought them up earlier in this thread.

              Also if you don't like gmails tabs.. Just turn them off?? I did. Such a drastic change isn't being rolled out all at once and certainly won't be "forced" unless all/most competitors adopt the same functionality. Loosing customers simply because they can't turn off a feature would be silly. This is google we are talking about after all ... Not Facebook
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        • Profile picture of the author ninja newbie
          Rene' I think you are definitely going in the right direction by writing an ebook, as I am in the process of doing this myself, I will be following the guidance of my mentor and sell it for around $9 and give jv's/affiliates 100% commission so I can build a buyers list.

          This of course would be the front end of a funnel that would include upsells, downsells and a continuity component ie a low ticket membership for $27-37 bucks a month.

          This is a solid "business model" as long as value is being provided at every step of the process.

          As many before me have expressed when done right, list building and email marketing is not only very lucrative, but is the cornerstone of true internet marketing.

          I hope you don't give up 2 seconds before the miracle happens

          ~Terry aka ninja newbie
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          • Profile picture of the author waltersweb
            Thanks terry, going to start my attempt very soon
            If you would like to exchange thoughts or experience, I'd love to have someone that is pretty much in the same position as me

            Every one else: I really appreciate how this thread is going, nice discussions going on now! It has been a ton of help to me, I hope this really is the last attempt I need in IM


            Originally Posted by ninja newbie View Post

            Rene' I think you are definitely going in the right direction by writing an ebook, as I am in the process of doing this myself, I will be following the guidance of my mentor and sell it for around $9 and give jv's/affiliates 100% commission so I can build a buyers list.

            This of course would be the front end of a funnel that would include upsells, downsells and a continuity component ie a low ticket membership for $27-37 bucks a month.

            This is a solid "business model" as long as value is being provided at every step of the process.

            As many before me have expressed when done right, list building and email marketing is not only very lucrative, but is the cornerstone of true internet marketing.

            I hope you don't give up 2 seconds before the miracle happens

            ~Terry aka ninja newbie
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        • Profile picture of the author janicej
          Banned
          I agree that list building can work if you build a community and maybe use it together with social media and other tactics that can get people to trust you enough to buy your product; but isn't is a lot less intrusive and more efficient to just use SEO and organic traffic generation methods instead?

          Personally, i'm less likely to trust someone who bombards my email address with links and offers than a well-built website where you can explore and just find what you need.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
            Originally Posted by janicej View Post

            I agree that list building can work if you build a community and maybe use it together with social media and other tactics that can get people to trust you enough to buy your product; but isn't is a lot less intrusive and more efficient to just use SEO and organic traffic generation methods instead?
            I wanted to address this because list building is a method of marketing to a database of contacts, not a traffic generation method per see. So it's an apples to oranges comparison. Yes, I know some marketers market it that way in their salescopy, but you can't really compare it to SEO / organic traffic generation because they simply are not the same thing.

            According to eMarketer.com, e-mail use has actually gone up due to mobile devices like smart phones and tablets. In fact, because of that one fact, list building has actually been easier for me these past few years. I've also changed how I market to my lists, especially in the 18 to 34 age demographic.

            Effective list building is here to stay and will be for decades to come. List builidng is not limited to e-mails, though in our community, that appears to be the most common medium at the moment. Social Media pages like Facebook Fan pages, Twitter, etc. are just the beginning (yes, your followers or fans are part of your list).

            Allen Says, the owner of this forum, has built an awesome list by having people register to this forum. Though he hasn't done it in a long time, he used to send out an occasional promotion by sending all members a private message (most welcomed this). Of course, he no longer needs to do this as he has created a cash cow.

            Personally, i'm less likely to trust someone who bombards my email address with links and offers than a well-built website where you can explore and just find what you need.
            This is just one style of how some people communicate with their lists. In the MMO market (marke money online), most people that I see don't really know how to market to their list all that well.

            They DO make money by sending out multiple offers, sometimes more than once a day; what they don't realize is that they could make MORE money if they focused on the life time value of their customers.

            One component of effective list building is building trust and rapport with the people on your list. I know the marketer who is making 10k or 20k per month bombarding their lists are laughing at me right now, but they have a myopic view on how to run a business and in the long run they cannot sustain those numbers.

            List building is here to stay, for a very long time too. You just have to implement it correctly.

            RoD

            Side note: I strongly recommend you read the following by Seth Godin, they will literally FORCE to be a better and more effective list builder:

            Tribes
            Permission Marketing
            All Marketers Tell Stories (a.k.a "All Marketers Are Liers), the updated version is fantastic!
            Small Is The New Big
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  • Profile picture of the author kayfrank
    The money is in the relationship you build with your 'list'. Communication is the means to build a relationship - that can be email, facebook group, blog, anywhere you can build that relationship. As long as you 'control' that means of communication it will work. Using an autoresponder is an easy way to do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    Who cares about Gmail? If they don't open, they don't open. Delete them and move on. There are thousands of others waiting to take their place.

    The Internet doesn't begin and end at Google. They are a tiny piece of a giant pepperoni pizza pie.
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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post

      Who cares about Gmail? If they don't open, they don't open. Delete them and move on. There are thousands of others waiting to take their place.

      The Internet doesn't begin and end at Google. They are a tiny piece of a giant pepperoni pizza pie.
      :rolleyes:


      Check your list and see what percentage are using Gmail - that's your short term impact. If the tab layout is successful, which I think it will be - even I have to admit as an enduser I love it - Microsoft and Yahoo will probably follow suit. Pretend all of the "big 3" move to this style of layout, what percentage of your list will see your mail then?

      I'm not saying stop list building or anything crazy, but I suspect if we come back to this converstaion a year from now we're all going to be reminiscing about "the good old days back in 2013" when people actually read our emails and our lists are responsive.

      I cringe at the thought that our social media results may one day be better than our email results.

      Oh, and to the guy who's saying that purchased/scraped lists are more responsive, dude, what are you smoking? I suspect you're an email broker in some capacity and I know people like to make up phony statistics to promote their product, but that's just ridiculous.
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  • Profile picture of the author jadesource
    What is dead is thinking that this process is anything other than a business which follows the rules of any business. The people on your list are your customers, not numbers. I've made that mistake before.

    In truth, you are trying to get to your list built to find customers who can rely on you for the thing they came to you for. If it solves their problem, or makes them feel better, you have done a service and deserve to earn a consideration for that.

    The wild west is fenced in. Just throwing up spun pages with adsense ads and making a few thousand a month is 2005, maybe 2003. Like shooting buffalo on the great plains, they shot them all. Took a hundred years to finally be eating bison again.

    And it's a slow process. It works. But only if there product or service is there.

    M
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  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    I'll spend my time worrying about things that actually matter, instead of trying to beat Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author luane
    My comment on this is that List Building is alive and well, but only works for those who build a community. I like the guys/gals that also offer a Facebook format to engage others in there who are like-minded about a certain strategy or tool. I personally have begun to realize that is it is YOU as much as the product that they are looking for. After all, aren't there some emails that you ALWAYS open because you know , like and trust that guy? BE that guy! Emulate what the ones YOU love are doing. Give value, and make bank.
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  • Profile picture of the author needhits
    Don't use bought or old email list, that will cause a high bounce rate. Our services will review a account with a bounce rate higher then 2-3%. We will stop the campaign to keep from spam reports. You need to get your messages delivered and not placed in a spam box. You want the client to read the promotional email. Then unsubscribe if wanted (hopefully not, but was read).

    I think that with the can spam laws more email service providers are using more advanced spam recondition software. All it takes is a couple of spam reports and your messages don't get to the inbox.

    So make sure to use a quality email list that was collected on your website, with a appealing email template design, you will see the desired results.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    Yes for the love of GOD!, I have to tell you that LISTBUILDING IS DEAD!

    DO not do it, please never ever ever think it is gunna work!!! Cross my heart and hope to die, stick and apple (or whatever) in my eye!

    - Most people think its spam

    - Most people never check their email anyway

    - This will not bring in sales

    - Lists are not that good.

    - Lists that are 6 months old are useless.

    - Lists .........................


    I could go on and on....... just make sure you understand it will never work!

    *** HEARS A GMAIL INBOX CHIME ***

    Whoops sent and promo out to my list today, gotta go, I am sure its just spam, cause listbuilding doesnt work, but I better go check anyway - ROFFL!

    Anyway, list building is dead obviously. so dont do it.

    *** SMILES AFTER SEEING THE SUBJECT LINE OF EMAIL ***

    LOL -
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  • Profile picture of the author Diesell
    That's totally true @Luane , the more they trust you, the more they are going to open your emails and buy from. DON'T give them shitty PLR products from 20 years ago, but give them valuable content. Answer there questions and talk to them as a friend. I have subscribers from 5 years ago that i still talk to, i like them, they like me...They buy and i keep the money ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark .W. James
    I get what the both of you are trying to say....

    I have just figured out that gmail filters an email to the promtions section if its coming from a well known email/newsletter service provider.. if someone is running their own script, it goes directly to the primary... even if you have an unsubscribe link, doesnt matter... as long as the script is your own....
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    • Profile picture of the author ronrule
      Originally Posted by Mark .W. James View Post

      I get what the both of you are trying to say....

      I have just figured out that gmail filters an email to the promtions section if its coming from a well known email/newsletter service provider.. if someone is running their own script, it goes directly to the primary... even if you have an unsubscribe link, doesnt matter... as long as the script is your own....
      Interesting, I wasn't getting those results maybe they're still tweaking it due to complaints? I wonder what the threshold is ... even if you can beat it in a few tests, would it still skip the inbox on a email that was sent to thousands? Are you sure your tests are working, or does Google already identify the message as your own and put it in your inbox?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark .W. James
        Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

        Interesting, I wasn't getting those results maybe they're still tweaking it due to complaints? I wonder what the threshold is ... even if you can beat it in a few tests, would it still skip the inbox on a email that was sent to thousands? Are you sure your tests are working, or does Google
        already identify the message as your own and put it in your inbox?
        Its impossible for google to tell if the tests came from me.... moreover, i am subscribed to sooo many things, i figured out i did not even need to do the tests.....

        Google is not filtering any of the job sites.. such as monster.com and a bayt.com (local site for UAE job finders)....

        Intersting thing is, four or five emails of job came to the primary folder whereas just one went to the promotions folder meaning there must also be certain set of keywords throwing emails into different groups....


        Have a friend at google.. works in a different department though... but will still check if he can get any info on this...
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    According to the headlines I read the whole Internet is pretty much dead
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  • Profile picture of the author kkll78
    List building is not dead. You just want reall people to listen. Make sure you are providing a quality product. Also, do not bombard them with paid offers. Do not be affraid to give some free information to gain trust.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisSWN
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  • Profile picture of the author Chiayee
    Hi all:

    I read through this thread and came to know that.. an email will go to promotion section if

    1. It contains unsubscribe link
    2. It's sent via well known service provider (eg. Aweber)

    I configure my Gmail inbox with the new setting. Next I find that some "promotional" emails (with above listed criteria) go to promotion tab, and some remain in Primary section.

    Guess we will have to wait for dust to settle...
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  • Profile picture of the author SuccessMarketer
    List building does work still. In fact without a list you do not even have a business that you can call "yours"... I mean you can surely earn money as an affiliate or a CPA marketer but at the end of the day if you are looking to build a long term business YOU MUST build a list..

    Just like any brick and mortar business really. Think about successful businesses in the "real" world (offline), the majority of them have a customer base that buys from them on a regular basis. This could be compared with having a list in our industry.

    If you take away these regular customers from an offline shop, the business has to continually chase "one off" sales to keep surviving in the market place.

    The KEY here - and I know it's been said, but still important to remember- is that people in your list are human beings and as such they have feelings, emotions, problems, highs and lows in life. They are NOT numbers in an autoresponder designed to make us money.

    A list of 1,000 people would be much more responsive if you interact with them, give them value, treat them with respect and just really making friends with them that if you had a list of 1,000,000 subscribers that only get automated messages selling all the crap out there with no regards of their well being.

    The sooner we all realise that we are dealing with people and we need to treat them like you would treat a family member, the bigger the benefits will ultimately get... and it's not just money, but the satisfaction that we are contributing beyond ourselves
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  • Profile picture of the author onlinesolutions1985
    List building is not yet dead because this one thing also in creating your leads the only dead is if you did not know how to make more leads while promoting your products or service.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Don't get me wrong, list building isn't dead "yet" - I still do it and recommend doing it. It makes money right now. My concern is how long will it work for? There are people on this forum - lots of them - that make 100% of their income from their lists. That's still totally doable and kudos to them for pulling it off. BUT those same people will admit that their open rates today are lower than they were five years ago. It's likely they're making more money with their lists now than they were five years ago, but that's due to their lists being larger and improvements in their communication. Or in other words, if they had today's exact list and knowledge five years ago, they would have made more money then than they do today, simply because more people would have been reading their messages.

    The trouble is we've seen a trend moving away from email as a communication tool (this has been confirmed by multiple studies). I'm in my mid 30's, so email is still very much a part of my daily life. My younger sisters (19 and 22) rarely use it. They aren't signing up for mailing lists, they get their content and notification from social sites and other "instant" platforms, and this is a major trend with their age group. And Google's tabs, in my opinion, are another step toward the demise of email as a marketing tool.

    We aren't there yet, but if other mail providers start copying Google's model, email marketing will be getting a good swift kick to the face and the people who don't diversify their methods of engaging their customers will have a lot to lose.

    So the question about should someone who has never built an email list before start one today? Of course - and you'll probably make money with it. But don't make it the only thing you do and think that it's all you'll need. The phrase "the money is in the list" will one day be "the money used to be in the list". It's just a matter of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author tiroberts
    I echo what most of the other warriors have said here: list building is NOT dead.

    What matters is the RELATIONSHIP that you build with your list. You have to remember that there's a real life, living, breathing, human being behind every email that subscribes to your list and you MUST treat them as such. Not as a ATM.

    If you look at some of the big bloggers that have massive lists like Ana Hoffman, Lisa Irby and Danny Iny. They all have massive lists and make thousands per month from their list because of how the relationship they've built and how real and authentic they are with the PEOPLE on it.

    Weather you know it or not, your in the business of building relationships with people. Just like you network and spark new conversations with people offline, you must do it online as well.

    Once you've got that trust and relationship going, you can def make a few thousand dollars per month for it.

    Ti
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  • Profile picture of the author digitalsapien
    Of course it isn't. Listbuilding is still one of the best ways to gain online exposure and one of the best ways to make money online. You can't just say it's dead. Read about that and be amazed with how it can really help your online business.
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  • Profile picture of the author TTGSteve
    A list is exactly where it's at, but you have to keep the list very targeted. A lot of people will just have one huge list for a ton of niches. Instead, you need to have multiple lists for multiple niches. That way, you're not sending people that are interested in fitness affiliate links to automotive parts.

    There's too many people out there that have an unresponsive list, because people on the list feel as if they're constantly receiving spam.
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  • Profile picture of the author flovin
    It sure is going to affect the open rates but then it is also time to educate your subscribers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Rosmer
    From what I can tell I'm a bit of an anomaly on these forums, which seem to be filled with people who are mostly pure internet marketers (meaning they aren't using it as a compliment to something offline) and often don't have their own products. I own numerous businesses most of which are not purely online, I'll use one example for the purpose of this discussion. I own a spa where we have an email list of around 1700 subscribers at present, plus approximately 1400 Facebook fans. Now, some people talk about not always selling to your market, building trust and rapport, etc. but that's completely different than our experience at the spa and the difference is why did people sign up? Lists and relationships in general are contextual. If someone came to you for dating advice and you start trying to sell them web hosting you're probably going to fail at it. If on the other hand you are giving them dating advice they'll mostly be ok with it. They might not open all the emails because people are busy and that's cool but they'll have an interest, provided it's good content, in what you have to say, after all that's what they signed up for.

    We send out emails to our list twice per month and post deals on Facebook 3 times per day and our open rates remain fairly constant and our market keeps buying. Why? Because we didn't pretend we were making friends with them, we didn't pretend we were just trying to sell anything we could to them. We said "hey, you're signing up because once and a while we have deals on spa services, are you interested in knowing about those? Yes? Great, we'll sign you up". And yes, each time we send out an email we get 5-20 who unsubscribe and generally over that same period of time we add 50-60 more.

    Bottom line, the money was never in a generic list, if you think so try buying a generic list and send them a bunch of random offers, I assure you it will fail miserably (I've tried that, 13 000 names and virtually no results when a targeted 200 names who actually care about what we're promoting produces great results). The key to a list is to target it, cultivate and nurture it. To some extent this is a failure of all the email capture exchanges out there "give me your email and I'll send you my free ebook" the problem is I wanted the free ebook, I didn't necessarily want the newsletters that followed.

    There's still value in the list, but the list needs to be aligned with the offer.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Michael Rosmer View Post

      We send out emails to our list twice per month and post deals on Facebook 3 times per day and our open rates remain fairly constant and our market keeps buying. Why? Because we didn't pretend we were making friends with them, we didn't pretend we were just trying to sell anything we could to them. We said "hey, you're signing up because once and a while we have deals on spa services, are you interested in knowing about those? Yes? Great, we'll sign you up". And yes, each time we send out an email we get 5-20 who unsubscribe and generally over that same period of time we add 50-60 more.
      Don't let this one pass you by folks, it cuts to the core of this whole "relationship" thing.

      Over time, Michael's spa built a business relationship with their subscribers.

      They set expectations: Once in a while, we have deals on spa services. We announce those to our subscribers.

      They met those expectations on a consistent basis. Deals on spa services, from a spa.

      Whatever induced them in the first place, the business relationship they nurtured with subscribers allowed those subscribers to know the business via their consistency. It allowed customers to trust that the spa would do as they promised, and that trust spills over into the services themselves. Last, deal or not, a portion of those people like the business well enough to choose them over any other spa squawking about deals.

      It sounds like it's working...
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      • Profile picture of the author Lani D
        I am still new to the IM community, but it seems as though everybody I speak with still feels that creating, growing and monetizing a list is one of the most lucrative assets to have in your "belt" for IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pushkar Gaikwad
    Walter, I have not read the full thread but let me give you an advice from different perspective. Sometimes, we just do things in a wrong way and to make things work, you have to destroy everything and start from scratch.

    May be you are selling wrong product to wrong market ? may be your expectations are unreal ? may be you don't understand the vertical as well as you think you do.

    It will be good if you ignore what others are saying or selling, the fundamentals of selling are fairly simple and you don't need any guru to teach you that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Moneymaker2012
    The money is still in the "list". If you know how to build a good list of responsive people, and if you send them quality offers, it will convert good and so you'll make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author EPoltrack77
    Its leveraging your marketing efforts is what it is. It's also important to keep your list clean and be adding people everyday. As the saying goes "the money is in the list"

    List building is like investing in real estate once you know how and about conversions
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  • Profile picture of the author doggerel
    Okay. Let's assume that the other email services follow suit and email marketing dies.

    What then?

    What's next?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    Walter,

    I'm sorry you're having a hard time. It's frustrating, I know.

    Warning: rant ahead:

    Your post and question demonstrate a lack of understanding of the basic fundamentals of business.

    TryBPO is absolutely spot on. And RonRule is dead wrong.

    Saying "Listbuilding is dead!" (or will be in the near future) is absolutely asinine!

    (But that's what happens when you ask a bunch of random strangers. You get it. The opinion, that is. Whether it's fact or right or wrong is another story altogether.)

    The WHOLE POINT of building a list is to gather a list of people interested in what you have to offer and likely to buy what you have -- and then build a relationship with them.

    These people are MUCH more likely to buy from you than random strangers. (Smart offline businesses do this too.)

    That's why listbuilding will NEVER be dead!

    RonRule is confusing the e-mail issue with listbuilding and e-mail marketing. They are two completely separate things!

    The GMail issue is an EMAIL issue, NOT a listbuilding issue! And furthermore, it's JUST GMail! People are all in a froth over the GMail issue, but people use other e-mail programs and services too. While I understand the worry, it's been blown WAAAAY out of proportion.

    As others have said, if you build a relationship with your list, they will respond, even if your e-mails are going to the promotions tab.

    Listbuilding will NEVER be dead. It's a simple, basic fundamental of business -- applicable to online AND offline businesses.

    You can build the list with different lead generation activities:

    1. Articles
    2. Ads
    3. Media appearances (radio, TV, etc.)
    4. Speaking
    Etc.

    Then you continuously communicate with your list and build a relationship with them. Online, it's typically done through e-mail. But offliners do it too. They do it through direct mail (postcards, letters, etc.) newsletters, etc.

    People buy from people they know, like and trust. So if you already have an established relationship of some sort, people are much more likely to buy from you. Period.

    One of the best things you can ever do is to get OFF the WF, close your e-mail and get some REAL marketing education. Go get Magnetic Marketing from Dan Kennedy (GKIC Store - Magnetic Marketing)

    As TryBPO said, these aren't bots. Every name on your list is a REAL PERSON. So even a handful of people on your list is meaningful if you think of them as real people and treat them as such.

    If your list hasn't bought from you, it could be any number of things:

    1. You're targeting the wrong people.
    2. Your offer isn't compelling enough.
    3. You don't have a strong enough relationship with them and they don't trust you.
    4. You don't have a big enough list.

    (Yes, at a certain point, it's just a numbers game. The old 80/20 rule applies here. How many people do you have on your list? If it's less than 1,000, you should focus on building a targeted list of people for what you have to offer before you start worrying.)

    Also, HOW and WHERE you get your list is important too. Not all names are equal. Some are more qualified and interested than others.

    Etc.

    But saying listbuilding is dead is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    And a REAL business owner won't focus on just e-mail to communicate with their clients. Smart business owners use offline methods too, like direct mail. Use e-mail to do the heavy lifting, but use something like cheap postcards to give your promotions a little ooomph.

    Use more than one media to communicate. Use e-mail. Use video. Use social media like Facebook. Use dirt cheap postcards. Etc.

    Building a list is CORE to ANY business, online OR offline -- and always will be.

    </rant>

    But feel free to abandon listbuilding and talk to random strangers instead. Let me know how it works out.

    Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author The SEO
    Listbuilding isn't as in past some years.
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    Listbuilding is always apparently dying. Thing is, it's still not!
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  • Profile picture of the author pressreleaseagency
    It seems dead because it is used in the wrong way. focus on bringing massive value.
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