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What is shaving?

by Anton543
16 replies
I have heard quite a few mention this in respect to Clickbank.
#shaving
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    In ClickBank's case, it's a nonsensical accusation that a very few delusional people (often with the "conspiracy theorist" type of personality) like to make ... "shaving", in this context, means not paying out on all the sales but committing a heavy-duty and persistent criminal fraud by regularly keeping a small proportion for themselves and hoping nobody will ever notice. The kind of thing that would get any business the size of ClickBank's in court and closed down very quickly indeed, obviously, (and the directors/owners in jail, of course), if there were really ever any evidence of it. The idiom is based on something like "cutting off the top bit and keeping it for yourself".
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark .W. James
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      It's a nonsensical accusation that a very few delusional people (often with the "conspiracy theorist" type of personality) like to make ... "shaving", in this context, means not paying out on all the sales but committing a heavy-duty and persistent criminal fraud by keeping a small proportion for themselves and hoping nobody will ever notice. The kind of thing that would get any business the size of ClickBank's in court and closed down very quickly indeed, obviously, if there were ever any evidence of it. The idiom is based on something like "cutting off the top bit and keeping it for yourself".
      I have experienced shaving.. not with clickbank but with another 'big' affiliate platform.... when i quit affiliating their products, i got an email regarding my reason for leaving, i said what was on my mind, the person 'rechecked' and then suddenly added 20 more cpa stating they had made an error... that was the last day i ever logged in to that platform's account....

      it happens.. not always.. not with everyone... but it does happen....
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      • Profile picture of the author essmeier
        Shaving can take a number of forms. I've been an affiliate of a company that sells a physical product for several years. One day, without warning or explanation, they sent me an email message saying that they were changing their affiliate program and that I'd have to get new affiliate links to replace the existing ones.

        They set up a new site for this on the same site as their old affiliate login, which continued to work for months afterward. As this was a product where customers were cookied for life, I checked periodically at the old login to see what was happening. Last time I checked, it showed that I'd earned $2000 in commissions dating back six months....

        ...for which they have never paid me, nor will they respond to my queries. They have, however, reported me as a spammer, which now prevents me from being able to send them more questions about why they won't pay me.

        The "new" affiliate program shows they owe me $90, all from recent sales. I guess they just decided that the "cookied for life" thing was kind of expensive, so they're just not going to pay for that anymore.

        Crooks are everywhere.

        Charlie
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    • Profile picture of the author Rockrz
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      The kind of thing that would get any business the size of ClickBank's in court and closed down very quickly indeed.
      That's just what you think.... how would you ever prove that they were paying correctly??? You can't, and there are large companies that do this.

      It's simple if they get caught... they blame it on a software error, and throw a few dollars out to fix the problem. Then wait a while and do it again. :rolleyes:

      Sorry, but if you think most people in this world are honest... you just haven't been schooled yet in the ways of the world. Just hang around a while...
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    • Profile picture of the author StrawberrryBumblebee
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      It's a nonsensical accusation that a very few delusional people (often with the "conspiracy theorist" type of personality) like to make ... "shaving", in this context, means not paying out on all the sales but committing a heavy-duty and persistent criminal fraud by regularly keeping a small proportion for themselves and hoping nobody will ever notice. The kind of thing that would get any business the size of ClickBank's in court and closed down very quickly indeed, obviously, (and the directors/owners in jail, of course), if there were really ever any evidence of it. The idiom is based on something like "cutting off the top bit and keeping it for yourself".
      Not so. Shaving can, and does happen. I can't speak for clickbank, but I know some (or lots, or all) of the CPA networks can and DO shave publisher commissions.

      It's just part of doing business. From a network perspective, you have a certain amount of junk leads produced, so what do you do? Compensate by shaving a percentage of the leads produced. If a publisher (or publishers across the board) produce an average of 10% junk leads (bad CC's, fake info, etc), so you decide to "shave" 10% of the top, not paying for those leads. Rather than going through the exhaustive process of verifying each individual lead and disqualifying junk ones on a case by case bases, you just shave an "average" percentage to compensate.

      Everyone is going to produce some junk leads, but if you are sending quality traffic that converts at a decent rate, and you bother to talk to your affiliate manager once in a while you can avoid these sorts of problems.

      EDIT: I pulled the 10% example straight outta my bum, for the sake of providing an example...so lets not start a discussion about the actual numbers, shall we.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rockrz
        Originally Posted by StrawberrryBumblebee View Post

        I pulled the 10% example straight outta my bum, for the sake of providing an example...so lets not start a discussion about the actual numbers, shall we.
        Oh, Bumblebees always be talking that 10% smack up in here!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
    I don't think clickbank shaves. I do think some networks shave though. Years ago I was trying to make money with a download network (paid for download) and I stopped using them for that reason. I also stopped using some CPA networks for the same reason as well. I can't confirm if they did shave but I think so.
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    • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
      Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

      I don't think clickbank shaves. I do think some networks shave though.
      I believe that thinking and knowing for sure sure makes a huge difference

      I do not think that MAJOR companies are 'shaving' because it would be entirely foolish to do..simply because anyone can conduct a sale and see whether a sale is actually credited. No sane, major company would risk this, IMHO. I think that the people who think that large companies are shaving are doing so because they ran into other problems why a click/sale etc. didn't get credited and simply made up the rumour.

      BUT...I cannot exclude that small, rather unknown rogue-CPA programs which are ran by some people are working unethically..but then you can say that from any business. Just my $0.02
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul200
        Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

        I believe that thinking and knowing for sure sure makes a huge difference

        I do not think that MAJOR companies are 'shaving' because it would be entirely foolish to do..simply because anyone can conduct a sale and see whether a sale is actually credited. No sane, major company would risk this, IMHO. I think that the people who think that large companies are shaving are doing so because they ran into other problems why a click/sale etc. didn't get credited and simply made up the rumour.

        BUT...I cannot exclude that small, rather unknown rogue-CPA programs which are ran by some people are working unethically..but then you can say that from any business. Just my $0.02
        You would be very wrong to asume that some well known company wont shave. Depending on what billing proccerors they use it is very easy to do, and does happen. Its hard to prove and that is why companys do it, specially when they are offering affiliates a high percentage of the sale. It was one way of recuperating money back into the company because they could never keep on giving thier affilates a high precentage of a sale without running into money problems themsleves.

        I can at least say for sure that in the past some very well known and respected adult programs have been caught doing this in the past. How often it happens now is anybodys guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anton543
    Interesting. I bet this sort of thing goes on all the time. But I would like to know who does the shaving - is it the network or the merchant?
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonlwe
      Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

      Interesting. I bet this sort of thing goes on all the time. But I would like to know who does the shaving - is it the network or the merchant?
      Mostly, it's the network that does the shaving. But when asked, they would say " We never shave our publisher's leads, our merchants do them. "

      But I don't think that's true. From what I heard, most networks would shave the leads using the " no quality leads" logic and get more revenue for themselves. Of course, I can't say which network here, but it happens.
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      • Profile picture of the author Anton543
        Originally Posted by jasonlwe View Post

        Mostly, it's the network that does the shaving. But when asked, they would say " We never shave our publisher's leads, our merchants do them. "

        But I don't think that's true. From what I heard, most networks would shave the leads using the " no quality leads" logic and get more revenue for themselves. Of course, I can't say which network here, but it happens.
        Couldn't you do this to see if cheating is occuring? After a few months you can contact the merchant and see how many sales your referrals have made and then see if the stats they provide match up with those in your affiliate account.
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        • Profile picture of the author jasonlwe
          Originally Posted by Anton543 View Post

          Couldn't you do this to see if cheating is occuring? After a few months you can contact the merchant and see how many sales your referrals have made and then see if the stats they provide match up with those in your affiliate account.

          I once read someone blog about this. He promotes us to not use cpa networks but go directly with the merchant. He went to compare the results with his merchants and the results weren't the same so he thought, " Why need the middle man? "

          Of course, it might be a low rep network that shaved him. Who knows?
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  • Profile picture of the author owais211
    Banned
    Had no idea but after going through warriors replies,now got an idea about it.
    Thanks to your inquiry.
    Cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    one thing I believe All affiliates should do, like guru launches, is to say something like "order though my aff link and get this (free downloadable bonus)"; just forward your order to me after placing it at (your email address) to get your bonus.

    that way you can check if people are ripping you off, for shaving or 1st-cookie robber baron aff pgms or other shenanigans.. put a check in place like that
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  • Profile picture of the author seonutshell
    Its when they accuse you of being a fraud, when in actual fact, thy are the liars and laugh all the way to the bank. See it all the time in CPAA marketing, especially with email submits.
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