Well - was it a conspiracy?

56 replies
It has been very interesting watching what is going on in the world of internet marketers. Not so very long ago there was a wealth of information available from a great many 'names' but that has all changed.

It has suddenly occurred to me that there has been a grand conspiracy between a small band of gurus, for want of a better term, to squeeze out the 'independents' and dominate the internet marketing scene. They have been very effective in achieving their goals.


Look around you now and you will see several 'big names' who regularly produce yet another major product and introduce it by a major launch process that involves all the other gurus and hundreds of those people who used to be 'names' but are much more quiet and less overt nowadays.

How has this been achieved?

How has a relatively small number of internet marketers been able to dominate a niche with a relatively large number of members? How have they been able to demote 'names' to 'affiliates'?

Why don't I see the numbers of smaller launches of niche specific products that there used to be?

I believe that the introduction of the 'free line' and the general consensus that has flourished - "give it away" - has disarmed the potential competition. The competition has been sucked into the maelstrom of emotion generated madness that has seen internet marketers giving away unique and valuable products. They have been busily giving away the farm while the small band of gurus has set out upon a programme of product creation knowing that they not only have each other to help with the launch but every other internet marketer who, at one time, might have been able to produce aspects of the major product and launch them to their own lists.

I don't remember when I first saw the email subject line "don't buy Fred's purple widget until you see my bonus" but it was not all that long ago. Am I the only person who finds this situation just a little sad? Am I the only person who feels that if someone produces a valuable and unique product that they should be able to market it independently? Am I the only person who is aware that there seems to have been a very substantial and successful brain washing operation going on so that it is no longer possible to discuss the internet marketing situation in general because all the implanted reflexes will create a knee-jerk frenzy?

There has always been free stuff available but it seems, nowadays, the rule has become "if it isn't free it is not worth having".

I am hoping that the craze will spread to the high street - I can't wait for the day I can go into a book shop and buy a volume for $47 and walk out with an additional $2,345 worth of additional products. Better still, wouldn't it be nice if I could indicate that I wanted to buy the $47 volume and wait until I received the best 'bonus offer' before buying?
#conspiacy
  • Profile picture of the author Bennie Slug
    Sad but true that's the way it is. I wish I could thank you 1000 times sir, you're a very illuminating person.Speak your mind that's pure gold.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyrus Antas
    I don't think there is a conspiracy to keep the little guy down, however there's certainly a lot of cooperation between the big guys that makes it easy for them to keep getting better and better results.

    It's easier to use leverage when you're not starting from zero...

    Tyrus
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    This is I think an accurate interpretation - and the market is
    developing. I have seen smaller marketers not play the game -
    they promote their own friend's stuff and avoid the guru
    launches.

    It is kind of like the independent film industry rising up against
    Hollywood. Several Warriors put out great products and never
    or very seldom pimp their lists to the guru-launches.

    Build your own list - build your relationship with them - and
    (this is what I do) do not acknowledge too much the presence
    of specific launches going on. Your subscribers may not know
    about them!

    Of course every launch you promote yourself opens your
    prospect list to being siphoned away from you and into the
    world of the big players - who DO deliver lots of value,
    and polish with their promotions.

    You will notice that for every launch the big player seeks
    to build a giant new list of hot prospects. It is expensive to
    do this with advertising so they rely on JV partners -
    you can insulate your own business somewhat by not
    playing along.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      This is in no way a conspiracy.

      It is a direct result of a phenomenon discovered by Vilfredo Pareto and commonly referred to as the Pareto Principle. You can see a discussion at Pareto principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      It seems to be a common feature of nature and physics, related to what some also call "The Law of Attraction."

      I don't think you can do anything to overcome that effect other than to create your own space and do an end run around the pull of their gravity ... a la Google. They created a new and better mousetrap and did an end run around the existing search engines to become their own space. Now everyone revolves around them and will continue to do so until another development sneaks up on us.

      The one thing that does happen is that as they get bigger and bigger they are slower to change directions and become very set in their ways ... look to Microsoft as an example here.

      My recommendation is that you focus on your direction and continue with your focus. That is the purpose of niches, you hit a good niche and you will attract others and become the center of your own universe.

      Kirk
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  • Profile picture of the author Bert Ritz
    Funny you would post this today. I just told a friend of mine yesterday (though somewhat jokingly) that I thought all these massive give-aways were a conspiracy by the big guys to keep the little guys out of the market.
    But with a little different twist. The little guy gets the email-"300 + free resources!". Now, the little guy (or gal) spends the rest of the day looking through the list, downloading then days reading. And, uh-oh, just when they're almost done, here comes another can't ignore offering!
    The little guy or gal never gets started for fear they might miss the next great free 'secret'!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      LOL Bert,

      That aggravates the situation and maintains the mass of the big boys. Explains part of the way the Pareto Principle works.

      Kirk

      Originally Posted by Bert Ritz View Post

      Funny you would post this today. I just told a friend of mine yesterday (though somewhat jokingly) that I thought all these massive give-aways were a conspiracy by the big guys to keep the little guys out of the market.
      But with a little different twist. The little guy gets the email-"300 + free resources!". Now, the little guy (or gal) spends the rest of the day looking through the list, downloading then days reading. And, uh-oh, just when they're almost done, here comes another can't ignore offering!
      The little guy or gal never gets started for fear they might miss the next great free 'secret'!
      Signature
      "We are not here to sell a parcel of boilers and vats, but the potentiality of growing rich beyond the dreams of avarice."

      Dr. Samuel Johnson (Presiding at the sale of Thrales brewery, London, 1781)
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  • Profile picture of the author kentaiwan98
    And at what point does the whole thing become groupthink with all the vulnerabilities that that entails?

    It's true: Shoemoney, JohnChow and others send me emails about new products... then I see the same ones promoted later by other lists... It's getting kind of old fast. There are opportunities there for the intrepid, but they aren't where you think they are.

    Kenneth
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    • Profile picture of the author Randy Bheites
      Originally Posted by kentaiwan98 View Post

      And at what point does the whole thing become groupthink with all the vulnerabilities that that entails?
      Yup. It has become a cozy little echochamber, with the same old outdated information being spun and repackaged and floated out yet again. Every launch is flashier, louder, more graphically and hype intense to overcome the fact that it's the same old crap.

      The people who are truly banking it hard are either a) at the top of the echochamber foodchain, or b) not involved in any way in the IM niche and quietly using cutting-edge methodology to smoke the competition (and not about to tell every mook out there what they're doing).

      Every truly useful and original technique that I've learned about serious online marketing in the last two years has not come from an IM niche product or guru. It has come from discussion with people banking hard in a thousand other areas.

      Makes you think.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        For what it's worth, I have only participated in one big guru launch in my
        6.5 years of marketing online.

        My own products, the ones that make me the bulk of my money, don't even
        have an affiliate program. You couldn't promote them if you wanted to.

        And I do very well with this system in place. Most of my income is derived
        from a very small (well, relatively anyway) list of loyal people who I have
        treated well, appreciate that, find value in what I offer, and continue to
        purchase from me.

        In other words, you don't need the big gurus to make you a success.

        Build your own small group of customers.

        Provide quality info and products.

        Make customer service a priority.

        Ask anybody here who deals with me outside of this forum what their
        experience is like and almost all of them (there are always a few who are
        not going to be happy with you) will tell you that it's been superb.

        And I sure as hell ain't no...

        Frank Kern
        John Reese
        Mike Filsaime
        Willie Crawford

        and the list goes on and on.

        Again, you don't need the gurus to make you a success.

        The day people finally get that will be the day when threads like these
        really become meaningless.
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      • Profile picture of the author KentuckyJeff
        Originally Posted by Randy Bheites View Post

        Yup. It has become a cozy little echochamber, with the same old outdated information being spun and repackaged and floated out yet again. Every launch is flashier, louder, more graphically and hype intense to overcome the fact that it's the same old crap.

        The people who are truly banking it hard are either a) at the top of the echochamber foodchain, or b) not involved in any way in the IM niche and quietly using cutting-edge methodology to smoke the competition (and not about to tell every mook out there what they're doing).

        Every truly useful and original technique that I've learned about serious online marketing in the last two years has not come from an IM niche product or guru. It has come from discussion with people banking hard in a thousand other areas.

        Makes you think.

        Excellent post...the same old crap. I've only been trying IM for less than 1.5 years, but I have a good feel for what it's about. Luckily I haven't bought into too many of the products, methods and courses. Most of what I have bought I researched thoroughly first, and I did learn something from them.

        It's exactly right too that the guys making the real money aren't doing it by selling information on how to make money on the Internet, unless they're at the top of the heap, or close to it.

        They're making the money as quietly as possible, under the radar, not attracting as much attention as possible, saying, "look at me, look how much money I make."
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  • Profile picture of the author RecurringRevenue
    No conspiracy.

    However they (the gurus) do laugh a lot about how gullible people are. There are "contests" where they are trying to beat the other guy's best day and it has little to do with the value of the product.

    But that's not a conspiracy.

    For most it's merely transactional. Make as much as possible. It's not about domination, it's just math.

    Kirk is dead on. 80/20. But in IM about 10% have access to about 90% of buyers. So that's pretty easy to leverage.

    Art, the only one who is really brainwashing is Kern. What I mean by that is intentional washing. He's the only one I know who is diabolical in his approach.

    As far as squeezing out independents, that's not even a discussion. Independents are not on the radar until they become big enough to enter the circle in some fashion. And then they are embraced, not excluded.

    Mark Robbins
    Recurring Revenue
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    You're making assumptions/judgements based only on what you see Art..

    That's not wrong, or right... I'm just sayin'

    Whilst I would agree with your analysis based on what you see, the bigger picture tells something different...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

      You're making assumptions/judgements based only on what you see Art..

      That's not wrong, or right... I'm just sayin'

      Whilst I would agree with your analysis based on what you see, the bigger picture tells something different...
      You're right Jay. The bigger picture tells me it don't mean a freaking thing.

      Because once you start to make your own mark, people will begin to look
      for you.

      You can then decide if you want to play that game or just do your own
      thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Ah, yes - the bigger picture

    Oh, no - the law of attraction

    The bigger picture is made up of small components and the smaller the components, the more intricate and detailed the picture can be. If the components of the picture are so big that I can see very few of them I detect a rather monochromatic and boring design - strange but that appears to be exactly what I see.

    The law of attraction has been taken and used as a phenomenal income earner and the way it has been presented has almost created another religion. I feel really sorry for those who use the theories now promulgated as a part of their daily efforts - believe me, the universe neither knows you exists nor has the desire to supply you with your heart's desire. The law of attraction, in simple terms, simply says that the more you work towards something the greater your chances of achieving it. The last time I looked, work and manifest were not interchangeable words.

    There have been some good observations and comments in the replies - I hope to see more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Ah the Law of Attraction taken out of context. Hell, I didn't read the book or see the movie if there was one. Sounded like a bunch of ptooey.

      What I was trying to allude to was gravity, which exists in the Pareto Principle as much as in physics. Your collection of small components becomes one big mass which then becomes identifiable as the big time guru's list. Look at Pareto, when he originally stated that 90% of all human population lives within 200 miles of a navigable body of water, he wasn't talking about one really big fat person, he was talking about a collection of discrete units, who collected together because of some attraction.

      Sorry if I ruffled feathers or whatever.

      Kirk
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      Ah, yes - the bigger picture

      Oh, no - the law of attraction

      The bigger picture is made up of small components and the smaller the components, the more intricate and detailed the picture can be. If the components of the picture are so big that I can see very few of them I detect a rather monochromatic and boring design - strange but that appears to be exactly what I see.

      The law of attraction has been taken and used as a phenomenal income earner and the way it has been presented has almost created another religion. I feel really sorry for those who use the theories now promulgated as a part of their daily efforts - believe me, the universe neither knows you exists nor has the desire to supply you with your heart's desire. The law of attraction, in simple terms, simply says that the more you work towards something the greater your chances of achieving it. The last time I looked, work and manifest were not interchangeable words.

      There have been some good observations and comments in the replies - I hope to see more.
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      "We are not here to sell a parcel of boilers and vats, but the potentiality of growing rich beyond the dreams of avarice."

      Dr. Samuel Johnson (Presiding at the sale of Thrales brewery, London, 1781)
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  • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
    You should read "The Dip" by Seth Godin. I just happen to read it last night and it illustrates how and why what you are describing takes place in every single profession where there are huge rewards at the top.

    Basically the little guys you talk about didn't have what it takes to get through the dip, but the others big guys did.
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  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    Interesting...

    I put up a similar post 2 days ago, though not as well worded, and it was deleted.

    Guess I need to brush up on my writing skills.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      There's no conspiracy, these guys just happen to be louder than most...

      Not necessarily smarter, or richer.

      The quiet giants are alive and well and still making their millions, and have no interest in the MMO niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    It's not an intentional conspiracy, but it is competitive business
    practice - just as Guthy-Renker stomps it's competition in the
    infomercial business with the sheer ability to lose money on the
    front-end, big marketers are starting to really suck customers
    onto their lists with really big, big giveaways, especially software
    which is costly to develop.

    As far as perceived value it is very difficult to sell a make-money
    info-product when you have no big-bonus software to give away,
    or prestigious seminar included, etc... UNLESS you've carefully
    built a high-perceived credibility for your own business:

    ie. People can call you, you answer your own emails, etc. - you
    cannot expect to win by going head-to-head with a guy that rakes
    in 5 million bucks a year and spends a million of it developing
    3 launches every year, not until you get near that level - what
    you CAN do is develop a circle of people who dig your vibe
    and appreciate a higher level of service.
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  • Profile picture of the author charlesburke
    Yeah, there is a tendency of any industry with small, independent merchants to gradually consolidate into fewer, bigger operations. Think bookstores. Or small neighborhood groceries. Or independent hardware stores.

    Another point - as long as we spend our time looking at only one narrow segment of a single industry, we'll get a skewed view. The IM niche is alive and well, but not entirely thanks to the giant gurus. Go take a stroll through the WSO section. These folks are making money without huge launches or million-name mailing lists. Stop looking so intently at the big dogs, and gradually your focus changes enough to see other things that are happening.

    And one final point - we may not approve of some of the gurus nor their tactics, so we may be blinding ourselves to the qualities that allowed them to grow big. For example, whether you like their practices or not, they do have a strong overal command of business basics and understanding of buying psychology. Is that a bad thing? Or do we pronounce it bad because we're simply unwilling to develop all the business skills they've mastered.

    This ignores whether they're using their skills "ethically" or not. I won't go there because I've never met even one single person who thought their own ethics were less than right (and so therefore, anybody who differed with them was obviously "wrong").

    Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
    Charles
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Remuzzi
    Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

    It has been very interesting watching what is going on in the world of internet marketers.
    In the IM selling world of "make money online" products market segment yes, but an inch or two to either side and 99% of this "big guru" stuff goes away.

    Some markets are tougher than others but the IM market is one of the toughest to succeed in and the rewards aren't necessarily any better. I've never gotten closer than the very periphery of the make money online market segment and that was close enough, thank you very much!
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    I see the 'free line' doesn't get much of a mention.

    This is one of the major contributors to the success of the small number of product producing (re-producing?) gurus. Internet marketers who give every indication of being sane and rational do not seem to think it strange that having given away their own products, they are reduced to searching the market place for other products with which to create a 'buying frenzy bonus' so that they can promote the products of the gurus who convinced them to 'give it away'.

    Doesn't it seem strange that these same gurus don't believe that the 'free line' applies to them?
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    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

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    • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      Doesn't it seem strange that these same gurus don't believe that the 'free line' applies to them?
      Hey art, I've had discussions with you around here. You seem well rounded and aware along unlike most online marketers.

      To kill the competition teach others how to build a huge mailing list by giving away a free e-course and/or ebook.

      I'm on zero attention to IM gurus anymore, most aren't worth my time. I follow Clayton Makepeace though, he don't play silly mindgames and are willing to share from himself.

      Everything the bonafid IM gurus teach, I've heard 3x times already, other times it's just a new rollercoaster ride, I'm not afraid to unsubsribe from gurus list. There are more rewarding experts to follow, on bookshlefs in my local library.
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  • Profile picture of the author n00b
    I agree with Eric Lorence. Some people prefer to fly under the radar and quietly make their millions. Anonymity can be a wonderful thing. The "gurus" are successful and loud. There are some people who are happy with just being successful. There are also people who just don't want to be known as uber successful internet marketers; they don't want to be defined that way.

    I'm passionate about internet marketing, but I don't want to be defined or known for it. I'm in internet marketing in order to fund one of my dreams and that's the part of my life I want to be known for. Of course, things could always change and I'm open to that too. Right now I'm building a name for myself in a niche that I'm passionate about and that really fulfills me and I'm able to do that because of the income I make as an anonymous internet marketer which is great because I love internet marketing! I feel like I'm getting my cake and eating it too.

    Just because you see the "gurus" doesn't mean they are the best, they just want to be perceived that way. There are plenty of people just as successful that are choosing to forgo the title of "guru" and enjoy their success in private.

    BTW, I'm not trying to belittle any well known gurus. Goodness knows that if they have reached that level they know what they're doing, I'm just trying to bring up the possibility that there are others experiencing similar levels of success and simply choosing not to go down the guru road.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      I love having Art around. Remind me of my father and his brutal honesty. Keep it up Art.

      PS: Enjoying your posts on my Success Manifesto blog too. Great stuff. Will be addressing your guide person comment in an upcoming installment.
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  • Interesting post but I have to be honest I don't really see the point of these types of threads?

    No disrespect to you Art but it sounds like you are just focusing on one negative aspect and asking if everyone agrees.

    I think the whole gurus vs the rest gets a little bit out of control. I mean the Internet is FREAKIN huge!

    Think about it, we have access to the entire online word. The world.

    Just because the gurus have access to a large market doesn't mean you can't make any money. It also doesn't mean that that same market won't buy your products.

    Again I don't really see the point of this thread, yes guru's team up and promote each others launches but they have been doing that for years. It's common practice to do JV's and run affiliate programs because it makes you more money (which is a good thing by the way).

    There will always be a big enough market online to make millions of dollars and it will only get bigger.

    To be totally honest I don't see the point in posting stuff like this because it doesn't do anyone any good at all. The only thing that can really happen is that you will find more people to complain with but again that doesn't do anyone any good. Complaining isn't going to make you any money and it isn't going to stop the guru's making money so what's the point?

    Seems to me time would be better spent focusing on how you can increase your own profits.

    FYI, I done a "big launch" last year and pulled in 600k without any big name gurus so the smaller guy can definitely make money in this market.

    Just my two cents....
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  • Profile picture of the author RecurringRevenue
    Tristan makes an awesome point. The internet IS huge.

    With the amount of folks online it's just super easy to make money.

    For example, in one of my markets I've got 3,000+ members paying $97 a year a month with zero affiliates. I spend about $1000 a month on Adwords and have less than 20 articles spread around.

    There was no big launch day and it took about 18 months to get there.

    Earl Nightingale said it best, "There really is no competition unless we make it for ourselves."

    Mark Robbins
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

    I see the 'free line' doesn't get much of a mention.

    This is one of the major contributors to the success of the small number of product producing (re-producing?) gurus. Internet marketers who give every indication of being sane and rational do not seem to think it strange that having given away their own products, they are reduced to searching the market place for other products with which to create a 'buying frenzy bonus' so that they can promote the products of the gurus who convinced them to 'give it away'.

    Doesn't it seem strange that these same gurus don't believe that the 'free line' applies to them?
    Not sure which "guru" you're following Art, but in my world giving away value to build a list of prospects and base for promotion doesn't have to mean giving away everything you own.

    It's all about strategy. If you give the right things away then you can sell the perfect accompaniments far more easily...and not just because you're cool for being generous, but because the prospect is moved along their process and needs that last piece of the jigsaw to speed up/save money/streamline/automate the process.

    A good example would be web design course that is given away for free, and then software and templates that are sold on the backend.

    I have to say, this whole notion of "guru" conspiracies is laughable (and I don't say that disrespectfully towards you personally Art).

    The reason I say that is because as Christian mentioned, the internet is HUGE.

    These small incestuous circles where "household name" IM experts peddle around is not even a mere fraction of the whole IM industry as a whole.

    There are of course, millions of different types of businesses that market themselves online, and it's comical to see people perceive the internet to be run by a few stereotypical successful marketers who run the whole show.

    The world is big, and so is the internet...and so are the amount of successful companies big and small that have no inclination or requirement to entangle themselves in the minute circles of "gurudom".

    In fact, the word "guru" is getting old around here...it carries little value and often refers to someone who "did a launch" or knows "Joe X" or has a product on Clickbank that sells well.

    These people are experts in the IM field, and some of which are mere "coordinators" of experts...just connecting the right people as a well paid middle man...

    ...the perfect business? Maybe. Gurus? Maybe not.

    Anyway, that's a different topic to which I digress. My point is: No, there's no conspiracy. What you're seeing is a community that quickly learns and adapts from current marketing trends in one of the most scrupulous niches on the internet - "marketing make money products to other marketers."

    And these people see that product launches are effective because of their close associations and in some cases, direct partnerships...

    ...and if you saw a business partner pull in a few million within a week to your same audience, well, that's a bandwagon worth hopping on isn't it?

    Product launches are nothing new, just as "continuity programs" are nothing new.

    In fact, "continuity programs" are hunreds of years old in some cases. But if you become too blinkered in this small world of IM 2 IM, you'll begin to believe the hype so much that you start to think that these things are new concepts...

    ...and that's not the "guru's" fault, it's a sign that the marketing is working EXACTLY as all marketing is designed to...since time began.
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    • Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

      The reason I say that is because as Christian mentioned, the internet is HUGE.
      It's pronounced Tristan bro
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  • Profile picture of the author RecurringRevenue
    I'm probably a great deal more tainted than the average "gullible" buyer but I never buy anything from a "Guru".
    overpriced
    true

    overhyped
    true

    They underdeliver every time
    false

    Have never seen one single really unique, useful, honest product coming from a Guru
    of course not since you never buy anything from them. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Interesting post but I have to be honest I don't really see the point of these types of threads?

    No disrespect to you Art but it sounds like you are just focusing on one negative aspect and asking if everyone agrees.

    I think the whole gurus vs the rest gets a little bit out of control. I mean the Internet is FREAKIN huge!


    Hi, Tristan,

    Yes - the internet is huge but what most new home income hopefuls look at before they realise the quagmire goes above their boot tops is the internet marketing arena. This arena seems to have been taken over so that the new hopefuls are faced with less choice of who to take advice from and so much free "make a million by breakfast tomorrow" offers that they get totally bewildered.

    Effectively, newbies have been disenfranchised.
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  • Hey Art,

    But my point is that the IM arena itself is huge.

    Internet Marketing covers so many different areas, it's like a blanket you can throw over a whole heap of different money making methods.

    Most guru's focus on a certain area, for example Frank Kerns Mass Control was mainly about launching a product and email marketing.

    There are sooo many different ways you can make money online that come under the "Internet Marketing" label that I don't think the guru's are going to have an overall negative effect on newbies.

    The key is education and this is a great place to educate yourself on making money online but I think it depends on the individual, you are implying that what the gurus are teaching is no good and that newbies who do buy into the latest launch are getting fed useless information which I simply don't think is true.

    Guru's rely heavily on reputation and if there stuff sucked they would be quickly outed, so I don't necessarily think that "newbies" buying into the gurus product launches is a bad thing because odds are the stuff they are selling will teach them how to make money.

    On the flip side I don't think guru's teaming up is making it harder for the individual to make money in this arena as I said before I made over 600k last year with no help from the big name gurus.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Tristan Bull View Post

      It's pronounced Tristan bro
      Sorry Tristan, it was early...and my mind was still swimming in a puddle of wine and vodka from last night.

      Damn, what a night it was though ;-)
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      • Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

        Sorry Tristan, it was early...and my mind was still swimming in a puddle of wine and vodka from last night.

        Damn, what a night it was though ;-)
        Haha not a problem my man, I can understand where your coming from
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Art,
          Effectively, newbies have been disenfranchised.
          I don't think that word means what you think it means.

          This is such a ridiculous discussion, I couldn't resist. It's like a train wreck, only with engines made of Silly Putty.

          Lose the idea of conspiracies, Art. Just lose it entirely. It's a foolish concept in this context. And almost every other, for that matter.

          Think in terms of confluence of interests.

          Instead of thinking "Big Names," think, "People who have developed significant resources, which they can bring to the table in any transaction where those resources are relevant."

          Now, from that perspective, who does it make sense for them to deal with? Someone who can bring comparable resources to the table, or someone who's barely able to spell ebook?

          You don't get invited to the game if you can't pay for your chips.

          Lose the tin-foil hats, and start thinking about what resources you can bring to the table. If you don't have them, how can you develop them? What can you offer that makes it worth someone else helping you to get where you want to be?

          You could do like Tristan did, and create your own "luck." Build something of value, and go straight to the customer. Or you could work with other relative newcomers and create your own "conspiracy."

          Or you can start threads talking about how you've been (shaking head at this) "disenfranchised."

          Which sounds more effective to you?


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author ecoverartist
    I think it's much easier for the "little guy's" voice to get drowned out by these massive pitches and overwhelming bonuses, but that's not to say the "little guy" can't make it.

    You're only a disenfranchised newbie if you want to be one.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimG
    Keep in mind that many of the higher level marketers regularly see each other at seminars and workshops which is why I think it is important that people actually get out and experience what can happen when you attend an Internet marketing seminar and start to build relationships by networking.

    It has been my experience and the experience of others that I have spoken with that that you can garner some possible JV opportunities with high level marketers (usually called gurus) by merely going to a seminar, paying for a beer after the event and engaging the marketers in an intelligent and outgoing manner. I truly believe a large part of being successful online lies around having a great product and an even greater personality.

    Unfortunately many people never get to experience better results because they fail to attend seminars and if they do then they never get over their anxiety or fear of actually approaching big name marketers.

    Also, there are plenty of ways to form your own marketing team because for every big name guru there are several lesser known but highly successful marketers who are willing to promote quality products from other folks they get to know and trust.

    Respectfully,
    Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Art,
    Quote:
    Effectively, newbies have been disenfranchised.
    I don't think that word means what you think it means.

    It has been very interesting to read the responses and there have been some good points made but I have drawn a conclusion from what I have seen around me and nobody has tried to show where the factors I have taken into account in formulating that conclusion are erroneous.

    Newbies have been effectively disenfranchised (and I know the meanings of all the words I use) because the lack of variety in the mega launches that seem to be the norm nowadays prevents them from voting (or electing) their own programme of choice.

    Not so very long ago it was not unusual to see several launches of products related to specific aspects of internet marketing each week. These launches were comparatively low key and addressed specific problems for both the new guy and the more established guy.

    All that seems to be available nowadays are mega launches promoted by everybody and his dog.

    We see give aways being created on an almost weekly basis so that wannabe affiliate marketers can build a list so that they, too, can promote the next mega launch and, hopefully, have enough free stuff to add to the offer that their bonus will be a better promotional tool than the next guy's.

    For those of us who have been swimming in this midden for some time this is not really a problem - we can smell it before it is dealt - but the real victims of this are the members of that growing band of newbies who get carried away on a flood of "buy Fred's blue widget" mania promulgated in a flood of emails.

    The more people fail to address my concerns ('it isn't so' is not an argument or a rebuttal) or produce an alternate hypothesis, the more I feel that maybe I am right and what started out as a reasoned opinion takes on more of the aura of a fact.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Art,
      Newbies have been effectively disenfranchised (and I know the meanings of all the words I use) because the lack of variety in the mega launches that seem to be the norm nowadays prevents them from voting (or electing) their own programme of choice.
      That's crap, and you know it. There is nothing "preventing" them from exercising their choice.

      Suggesting that people are unable to think enough to get past the fog is nothing short of insulting. Suggesting that many of them DON'T might be true, but that's a different statement altogether.
      All that seems to be available nowadays are mega launches promoted by everybody and his dog.
      "Seems." Largely because that's what you've trained yourself to focus on.

      Neither I nor my dog participate in many of the mega-launches. A lot of the publishers from whom I get information worth reading are similarly unconnected to said launches. These are, unsurprisingly, the sources most likely to be found by people who are more interested in marketing non-"IM/biz-opp" products.

      Maybe you just need to start looking at other sources of information, Art.
      The more people fail to address my concerns ('it isn't so' is not an argument or a rebuttal) or produce an alternate hypothesis
      The longer you fail to read what's in front of you, the longer you'll live in this conspiratorial delusion.

      There have been a number of valid perspectives offered in this thread. The fact that you don't recognize them says more about your attachment to your fantasy than about their accuracy.


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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Art,

        Just a few thoughts.

        1. Gurus spend very little time posting on the Warrior Forum. Are they just lurking or using their time elsewhere more productively?

        2. If you spend too much time in the IM niche you grow blinkers. You don't see the wider world and THAT it what "disenfranchises" (I think a better word would be "hinders") newbies. Last year's "sheep" thread bears rereading.

        3. Why would anybody promote Hostgator when for only a few dollars more a month they could use one of the top corporate hosting companies in the world? (I wonder which one has an affiliate programme?).

        4. I don't think this is a conspiracy but it works just as well to beat out the competition and keep people as buyers instead of sellers - if newbies are busy downloading freebies all the time and getting angry with gurus how much time and energy do they have left to grow their own business?

        5. Whether it is a conspiracy or not I don't care. I am not interested in the guru world and their business model. Now that I have thrown off my own "blinkers" I just want to get on with making money.

        Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Art,

        It has suddenly occurred to me that there has been a grand conspiracy between a small band of gurus, for want of a better term, to squeeze out the 'independents' and dominate the internet marketing scene. They have been very effective in achieving their goals.
        Well if you are paying as much attention to the market as you claim, you will have noticed a free report from a certain guru called 'the death of internet marketing.' Interestingly, this was not exactly recently.

        It explained what was going to happen and why, and it had more to do with people focusing on their own business than 'squeezing out independents'.

        Just a thought but perhaps the 'independents' would be better able to compete if they weren't also focused on those gurus' businesses rather than their own?

        Paul said it best -

        create your own "luck."
        There seems to be an underlying implication within many of the replies here regarding people requiring others to 'show them the way.'

        This attitude conflicts with the fundamental competitive nature of business and the concept of building a business around a USP. How can one expect to build a competitive advantage if they also require all of the answers to be handed to them on a plate so that they can copy some sort of blueprint? What about innovation, independence and initiative? I consider these as the basic fundamentals of success in business.

        And ironically, if anyone wished to observe how successful online business is conducted, they only have to find the motivation and initiative to turn on their PC and look.

        In comparison to offline business, online business has obvious elements that mean that it is in keeping with the nature of the medium that one can easily reverse engineer, analyze and mine data on other, already successful businesses.

        I see a market with a majority who have all of the answers they will ever need, one simple burst of initiative away, yet they are standing with their hand out, demanding answers, while stubbornly refusing to think and act for themselves.

        How has a relatively small number of internet marketers been able to dominate a niche with a relatively large number of members? How have they been able to demote 'names' to 'affiliates'?
        Because the majority of those 'members' are willing to let the persuasive hand of others guide them into that position. If those people flatly refused to be cajoled so easily, it would not be possible.

        This is due to the concept of 'working from home'. The majority of the market are not 'business-people' at their core. They are part-timers for a variety of reasons and consequently they are conditioned to avoid the responsibility of taking the bull by the horns and positioning themselves at the top of the pile, with that same majority 'working' for them (as affiliates).

        Why don't I see the numbers of smaller launches of niche specific products that there used to be?
        Because (as Paul touched upon) you are choosing to focus on one aspect and are seemingly oblivious to the other. I do the opposite, and can attest to the fact that those smaller launches of niche specific products are alive and well.

        I don't remember when I first saw the email subject line "don't buy Fred's purple widget until you see my bonus" but it was not all that long ago.
        I do, it was the first day that I researched this market.

        Am I the only person who finds this situation just a little sad?
        Probably not, but you are right if you think that there are many who don't because - a) the situation that you describe doesn't actually exist b) to borrow a line from Desiderata 'the universe is unfolding as it should'.

        Am I the only person who feels that if someone produces a valuable and unique product that they should be able to market it independently?
        They can. What exactly is stopping them?
        It has been very interesting to read the responses and there have been some good points made but I have drawn a conclusion from what I have seen around me and nobody has tried to show where the factors I have taken into account in formulating that conclusion are erroneous.
        I think Paul did and I think I have (above).

        Newbies have been effectively disenfranchised (and I know the meanings of all the words I use) because the lack of variety in the mega launches that seem to be the norm nowadays prevents them from voting (or electing) their own programme of choice.
        What do 'voting' and 'electing' have to do with it? This is business, a free market economy, not a democracy.

        All that seems to be available nowadays are mega launches promoted by everybody and his dog.
        Again, you are simply fooling yourself that your market research is adequate. I bought a plugin for wordpress recently that although it is used for promoting a specific affiliate program, the program has a wealth of products in almost every available niche.

        The plugin could be used by someone to build an affiliate business for themselves and if they created an efficient system for producing and managing sites, they could build a profitable presence in an almost unlimited number of niches - just with this plugin, wordpress and a handful of free plugins.

        The plugin was launched recently, without any major fanfare, affiliates or bonus wars. The seller is relatively unknown, but the launch appeared to be successful.

        This is one example of many that I could offer to demonstrate my point, which is that your point is moot because you obviously are not looking in the right places.

        For those of us who have been swimming in this midden for some time this is not really a problem - we can smell it before it is dealt - but the real victims of this are the members of that growing band of newbies who get carried away on a flood of "buy Fred's blue widget" mania promulgated in a flood of emails.
        If it was at all necessary to do so, I could explain in one word how these 'victims' can avoid any risk of getting 'carried away' in this manner. Hint - the word begins with 'un'.

        The more people fail to address my concerns ('it isn't so' is not an argument or a rebuttal) or produce an alternate hypothesis, the more I feel that maybe I am right and what started out as a reasoned opinion takes on more of the aura of a fact.
        So not only are you refusing to see/blind to a large segment of the products on the market, you are also refusing to see/blind to the answers here that address and resolve your questions.

        Hi Magic,

        Sorry to pick on you, but I want to quote you to make a relevant point (to Art) -

        I'm on zero attention to IM gurus anymore, most aren't worth my time. I follow Clayton Makepeace though, he don't play silly mindgames and are willing to share from himself.
        I see this kind of sentiment from the majority of the market. They suggest that they have realised that they have been misled by paying out for educational information and that they have learnt their lesson, yet at the same time they confirm that they haven't really learned the lesson.

        No-one has to buy any educational information in order to succeed in business, particularly in online business. All of the education that is required is -

        a) a shift in mindset

        b) a willingness and a keenness to use initiative in order to find answers to questions

        I have said it many times here - the most powerful tool at our fingertips is free and it is called Google. Yet for many, it is too much to expect them to use it wisely to find all of the answers that they could ever need, as they are conditioned to be spoon-fed and led by the hand and they instead expect to be able to have the keys to success conveniently delivered to their inbox or conveniently packaged into a 'tell-all' product.

        If a large majority of the market choose to adopt this lazy approach, it is only natural that the market leaders will respond to this by appearing to satisfy the demand, while in reality they will never satisfy the demand and will keep the buyers one piece short of the full jigsaw - in order that they can continually drip-feed them just enough to keep them interested while extracting their money.

        The sellers are effectively being forced into this position by the sheer weight of numbers within the market who refuse to accept right from the start that the first and only logical step for them is to change their mindset.

        That is sad, if you're one of them. It is particularly sad, if you try to blame others for your own lack of initiative and for falling into a trap that is not only obvious, but also overflowing with irony.

        The first step in business should be to make sure that one understands the fundamental, inherent nature of business. Fail at this first step, and one is heading nowhere, on a first class ticket.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    I wish I could click the thanks button many times on one person.. Paul, Martin, Roger..

    You make some excellent points, and yes:

    the universe IS unfolding the way it should.. w00t!..

    I think this point from Roger is massively important in this "discussion":

    No-one has to buy any educational information in order to succeed in business, particularly in online business. All of the education that is required is -

    a) a shift in mindset

    b) a willingness and a keenness to use initiative in order to find answers to questions
    Thank you

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author charlesburke
    Jay and Roger, you're right. Mindset and willingness are the starting point. But to change mindset, it's necessary to first recognize that what you believe is not TRUTH. But beliefs can be sooooo convincing...

    It's been said that believing is seeing. We witness that in action right here on the forum every single day. Argument won't change it. Neither will the most masterful persuasion. Only a personal, internal need to change can start change happening. Till then, debate benefits mainly the bystanders whose beliefs will let them hear.

    Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
    Charles
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I'll come out of left field here and tell you some advice.

    Some of our best communicators have weighed-in with
    straight-thinking advice on the subject: particularly the
    nature of the marketplace is it is a competitive beast and
    the marketers of highest attainment have done nothing more
    nor less than take it by the horns.

    If you want to do the (sure lucrative) "make money online"
    niche think about how you are going about it:

    Q: Where are you trying to get customers?

    A: Right on the same noisy street where all the competition
    is.... and you are being out-gunned.

    If you want to do that niche - don't try to grab the rotten
    apples off the ground - get them from the tree. Set up
    local TALKS about how to set up an internet business.

    Also - use AFFINITY. Market at people who will identify
    with you.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    So. there is hope for us all.

    It is very gratifying to see that my hypothesis may be wrong and that there are people around who can argue a point without resorting to polemics.

    It is even more gratifying to sense the passion behind some of these replies.

    I thank you all very much for the effort expended and the information supplied - they are greatly appreciated.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Art,

      My folks are going to the tulip festival, so I have a bit more time to reply...
      It is very gratifying to see that my hypothesis may be wrong and that there are people around who can argue a point without resorting to polemics.
      Stunning. You take such liberties with the language.

      May I ask what you thought your original post was, if not an exercise in polemics?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Honestbizpro,

        I had to look up that word
        You're not alone. Trouble was, once I got there they confronted me with this -

        ecclesiastical disputation
        When that happens, I know it's time to go to the pub for a pint and a curry
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Roger,
          ecclesiastical disputation
          That's like OS wars, only with religion.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Paul,

            That's like OS wars, only with religion
            I'll take your word for it

            I spent this week learning a new language, eating 'new' foods and tasting a large variety of strong beers as well as working and travelling. It's time to give the head-jelly a rest and just focus on Balti and more burp-fuel.

            Prost!
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  • Profile picture of the author crissanteiro
    I don't think there is a conspiracy. I think everyone is doing the best with what they have. When you get into internet marketing you will encounter many different paths which you can take or leave. There are thousands of choices. Follow your intuition and go for it. Therein lies your destiny.
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  • Profile picture of the author elliec
    Personally, I have unsubscribed to most of the "guru's" lists. I am fed up with multiple offers for the same product launch clogging my email. The "Arbitrage Conspiracy" some months ago opened my eyes...every guru and his brother promoted a product that was generally regarded here on WF as poorly conceived, executed and delivered. Yet not one "guru" apologized or made mention of their folly. It made me lose trust in those who promoted that product so heavily and we all know that trust is key in building and maintaining your list.

    I am with Tristan in the belief that the internet is a big bad world and with hard work and determination we can get a tiny piece of a very big pie and be happy and/or successful. But that still doesn't change the fact that the guru network is very unreliable and I will now place my trust in smaller, more sincere marketers when looking for IM guidance.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Oh man, I love a good conspiracy!!!

    So the "gurus" JV with each other and keep the little guys out of the process. Well, if I had a new product launch, I'd want JV partners with 100,000k names on their list mailing for me rather than ones with only 200.

    But here's my suggestion. Rather than rake on the gurus for having some kind of "inner circle" or "star chamber" kind of thing going on, why not reverse engineer the thing and try to find a way to leverage the power (the lists) of the gurus to one's advantage?

    Sorry about the history lesson here! But back in the 50's and 60's there were Marxist revolutionary groups over-throwing Latin American, South American, and Caribbean nations faster than you could count. From a purely historical and theoretical perspective, Ernesto (Che) Guevara has to be counted as one of the most learned and effective leaders of the period in guerrilla warfare.

    Now, I know that many of you youngsters here, were taught that Marxism is an evil philosophy promulgated by equally evil barbarians to create anarchy and destroy free enterprise around the world--but remember this: Many of the revolutions by Marxists in the 50's and 60's occurred in nations which were run by bloodthirsty dictators, cold-blooded killers whose families owned up to 90% of the land in the nation, and who, with the help of U.S. acronymical agencies, held absolute control over markets, financial institutions, ports, and agricultural, textile, manufacturing entities. The people could not own land, develop trade unions, or borrow money to begin businesses. Entire nations were essentially slave-labor camps.

    Now, there's a bona fide conspiracy for ya!

    Many of the Marxist revolutionaries first came to the U.S. for help in overthrowing their despotic rulers--but we declined, because major U.S. internationals were in bed with the ruling families. The rulers may have been *******s, but they were "our" *******s so we supported them.

    Getting no help from the U.S., revolutionaries, such as Che, then obsequiously requested help from the then Soviet Union. In order to extend their sphere of influence, they complied.

    But because of the disparity of weapons and manpower between those in power and the revolutionaries, guerrilla tactics were employed by the insurgents. Che wrote in great detail about how this could be brought into play. The revolution against the Batista regime in Cuba raged on for over two years, but in 1959 the U.S. backed Batista regime was overthrown by Castro with Che's help.

    Che's entire guerrilla-based warfare theory was based upon one simple principle: Leverage the assets of a powerful opponent to use against them! It is Aikido applied to military strategy: Redirecting the force of an opponent to gain an offensive advantage.

    End of history lesson and on to the the IM lesson. Rather than rant and rumble about the gurus doing JV partnering with each other, it might be more prudent to ask yourself this simple question: What are the guru's biggest assets and how could I leverage those assets for my own gain?

    The biggest asset of the gurus is not their stable of re-hashed products--it is their mailing list. Any number of you WF members could have (or have already) written an ebook every bit as good as most that the gurus have written. But it's their list that makes them a guru and opens the door to the "inner circle" of the other power brokers.

    So the question becomes, how can the little guy leverage the power of the mailing lists of the gurus to his advantage? It is entirely within the realm of possibility for the average person to do this. Now, I could give you a number of ways tthis could be done, but people would bark at me and say I'm way off base. Been there before.

    So think about that. How could you leverage the lists of the gurus to your advantage? How did the gurus build their list to begin with--and I don't mean with product launches--think more specifically than that.

    Sorry, but I used to be a public school teacher myself, and I know that people learn better when they discover solutions on their own. When I was teaching, I had the following word stenciled on the front of my desk: PUTATE. It's Latin for "Think!"

    Putate!

    Save your comments. I know, I'm too theoretical. I'm giving you questions, not answers. But the answers lie embroidered deeply within my questions. It is an enigma that I have arranged heuristically for you to unravel.

    Like I said, man, I love a conspiracy! The only thing better than finding one is cracking one. I won't take that pleasure away from you. Get cracking!
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