The GMAIL Update Did More Damage Than I Thought...

190 replies
The open rates dropped down after the Gmail update which separates promotional e-mails in a "promotions" tab, but I didn't want to jump into conclusions without sufficient test data.

It's been a while now and since then I have sent plenty of e-mails. Sure enough, the open rates have significantly decreased. I made a little test with a new list as well and the results were not good at all.

I have read another thread where it was claimed the on average, open rates went down by 7%. The percentage is much higher for me... on average, the open rate is 20% less than it was before. That's a serious decrease! I made tests with a new responsive list as well and the results were not good.

The increase in solo ad sellers and list builders in general probably contributed to this decrease as well but I'm pretty certain the Gmail update is the main cause. After all, a lot of my subscribers use Gmail accounts.

E-mail marketing is definitely still profitable but this is a serious blow.

What do you think about all of this? Did your open rates decrease as well?
#e-mail marketing #gmail #gmail update #google #promotion tab
  • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
    I forgot to mention an important detail in the OP. The new list consists mostly of people who are not marketers. They're people who like the idea of making money online but don't really have any skills. I wouldn't even classify these people as newbies.

    This must be why I have experienced such a significant decrease in open rates. Unlike most marketers, these people probably don't even know about the promotion tab or simply ignore it.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Fame
      Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

      I forgot to mention an important detail in the OP. The new list consists mostly of people who are not marketers. They're people who like the idea of making money online but don't really have any skills. I wouldn't even classify these people as newbies.

      This must be why I have experienced such a significant decrease in open rates. Unlike most marketers, these people probably don't even know about the promotion tab or simply ignore it.
      I've also seen decreases. What I'm experimenting with now, is the use of newsletter plugins/personal email servers. While it might have a lower delivery rate to gmail users, at least the open rate can cover for it. I'm currently testing how much is compromised.

      James Fame
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    Short tutorial on TY page on how to move you to primary inbox, and all should be good if you know your stuff.

    Also I have not heard of anyone with a long time list get any significant drop, what I see the most are ppl that made a list mainly with solo ads or cross promotions and they have yet to build a true relationship with them.

    And it's actually pretty crazy the amount of solo ads that are done today, I subscribed to a couple of list just to check them out...solo ads after solo ads.

    In fact, after looking trough my "lists" email address, i can honestly say that from the ~100 marketers I keep track of from time to time only about 7 or 8 send consistent valuable content that is not attached to a solo ad or wso or something like that. I was shocked when the guy I hired to compose the info told me that...
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  • Profile picture of the author RogueOne
    Short tutorial on TY page on how to move you to primary inbox
    I've done this from the start and recommend it. If people are truly interested they will take the time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bent SEO
      Originally Posted by RogueOne View Post

      I've done this from the start and recommend it. If people are truly interested they will take the time.
      This is a killer idea - thanks for sharing, definitely going to implement this.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Marshall
        I've noticed a big change in my gmail account the last couple days. This is the account where I make most of my purchases, sign up for IM email lists, sign up for other lists, etc. All of the sudden, 75% of my emails are hitting the Inbox again. Only a few emails hit the Promotions tab yesterday. Is anyone else witnessing this?
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        • Profile picture of the author bigballin6161
          Originally Posted by Kevin Marshall View Post

          I've noticed a big change in my gmail account the last couple days. This is the account where I make most of my purchases, sign up for IM email lists, sign up for other lists, etc. All of the sudden, 75% of my emails are hitting the Inbox again. Only a few emails hit the Promotions tab yesterday. Is anyone else witnessing this?
          I noticed this too. A few more getting through to the inbox.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin Marshall
            Originally Posted by bigballin6161 View Post

            I noticed this too. A few more getting through to the inbox.
            Yep. I am noticing a huge noticeable change since yesterday. It's a big deal that hasn't been reported if in fact Google has loosened up the triggers of what hits the inbox vs. what hits the Promotion box. On Monday I had 20 emails hit the Promotions tab. Tuesday I had six emails hit the Promotions tab. Today I have had six emails hit the Promotions tab as of 3:10 pm EST.
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  • Profile picture of the author mominternet
    Here are some tips from a subscribers point of view...

    Gmail update will take a little while for subscribers to adjust. I go into my email to read my subscriptions. At first it was quite annoying some made it in my primary box while others did not.

    I believe it will be wise to teach subscribers how to handle the new Gmail so they can make sure that your email appears on their primary tab so that they do not miss something important. It will be important to put out good content on your emails because it is easy to ignore the ones in the promotion box.

    The advantage in the Gmail tabs is the emails are not deleted right away. I go into my tab once a week and skim down before deleting and there is always some email headlines that catch my eye.

    From a subscriber's perspective:
    *Teach us how to handle Gmail Tabs
    *Create great email headlines
    *Have excellent content in emails


    To your success!
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    • Profile picture of the author isadoregregory
      This is a really interesting thread. I am learning a lot. I agree with making sure every content is valuable and also the headlines/subjects should be eye-catching. With this new update, there is nothing much we can really do but to find work arounds for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author writeaway
    Use this as an opportunity to increase the quality of your updates and ads.
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  • Profile picture of the author FrankRumbauskas
    Practically everyone using either AWeber or InfusionSoft already goes to my Gmail spam box unless I specifically add the senders to my contacts. Gmail has always been a challenge so this is really nothing new.

    It's also another reason to host your own mail server vs. using an autoresponder service. Having your own will always result in better deliverability and it's much easier than the propaganda put out by the autoresponder industry would have you believe.
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    • Profile picture of the author hometutor
      Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

      It's also another reason to host your own mail server vs. using an autoresponder service. Having your own will always result in better deliverability and it's much easier than the propaganda put out by the autoresponder industry would have you believe.
      How much is your own mail server?

      Rick
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by hometutor View Post

        How much is your own mail server?

        Rick
        You can use an SMTP service for your mail server and it's very affordable.

        A few to look at are SMTP.com, SendGrid.com, MailJet.com and Mandrill.com

        Cheers,
        Coby
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        • Profile picture of the author fin
          Some people will have an increase in open rates, some will see a decrease, and the rest will stay the same.
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          • Profile picture of the author mogulmedia
            Originally Posted by fin View Post

            Some people will have an increase in open rates, some will see a decrease, and the rest will stay the same.
            Some people will state the obvious, some will not, the rest will be unsure.

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            • Profile picture of the author fin
              Originally Posted by mogulmedia View Post

              Some people will state the obvious, some will not, the rest will be unsure.

              Some people just don't get it.

              Instead of going straight to the root of the problem they decide to work the system.

              Anyone considering going self-hosted based on one person using scare tactics blows my mind.

              Maybe people should be more concerned with trying to be one of those people who's open rates are still the same or higher.

              But fixing the root of the problem is too obvious and some people are a gluten for punishment.
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              • Profile picture of the author Coby
                Originally Posted by fin View Post

                Some people just don't get it.

                Instead of going straight to the root of the problem they decide to work the system.

                Anyone considering going self-hosted based on one person using scare tactics blows my mind.

                Maybe people should be more concerned with trying to be one of those people who's open rates are still the same or higher.

                But fixing the root of the problem is too obvious and some people are a gluten for punishment.
                Apparently, fixing the root of the problem IS NOT obvious to everyone, yourself included...

                Good luck increasing your open rates from the primary tab...

                It's basically the same as trying to increase your open rates when your message is going to spam...

                How can you increase open rates if they NEVER SEE your emails?

                I suggest you test this for yourself before you start making "clever" quips...

                I have had over 200K people optin through my opt-in forms over the last three years and have tested at least 10 "third party" autoresponders and at least 3 different self-hosted options...

                As long as your emails say "sent via Aweber" you will land in the promo tab - that's why the promo tab was created! All those "whitelisted" services have basically just served themselves up on a platter to Google. Now Gmail knows exactly where to "put" their emails...

                You can argue this till you are blue in the face - but you WILL NOT be in the primary tab using Aweber or GetResponse or InfusionSoft, etc UNLESS your customer puts you there AND then creates a custom filter to tell Gmail to leave you there...

                I will be there regardless.

                Good luck increasing your open rates. :rolleyes:

                Don't believe me? Optin to my Aweber list - see where it lands... A few days later I'll email you from my self-hosted and see where that one lands.

                Cheers,
                Coby

                P.S. For others reading this - please realize that the Warrior Forum, while a great place, is full of folks that only repeat what they've heard from others. This leads to spreading of false information. However the forum also has its' share of experts. In business, just like in life, you sometimes have to pick and choose which advice you follow and which advice you "take with a grain of salt".
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                • Profile picture of the author fin
                  Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                  Apparently, fixing the root of the problem IS NOT obvious to everyone, yourself included...

                  Good luck increasing your open rates from the primary tab...

                  It's basically the same as trying to increase your open rates when your message is going to spam...

                  How can you increase open rates if they NEVER SEE your emails?

                  I suggest you test this for yourself before you start making "clever" quips...

                  I have had over 200K people optin through my opt-in forms over the last three years and have tested at least 10 "third party" autoresponders and at least 3 different self-hosted options...

                  As long as your emails say "sent via Aweber" you will land in the promo tab - that's why the promo tab was created! All those "whitelisted" services have basically just served themselves up on a platter to Google. Now Gmail knows exactly where to "put" their emails...

                  You can argue this till you are blue in the face - but you WILL NOT be in the primary tab using Aweber or GetResponse or InfusionSoft, etc UNLESS your customer puts you there AND then creates a custom filter to tell Gmail to leave you there...

                  I will be there regardless.

                  Good luck increasing your open rates. :rolleyes:

                  Don't believe me? Optin to my Aweber list - see where it lands... A few days later I'll email you from my self-hosted and see where that one lands.

                  Cheers,
                  Coby

                  P.S. For others reading this - please realize that the Warrior Forum, while a great place, is full of folks that only repeat what they've heard from others. This leads to spreading of false information. However the forum also has its' share of experts. In business, just like in life, you sometimes have to pick and choose which advice you follow and which advice you "take with a grain of salt".
                  I'm not going to argue with you about it. I appreciate you've done some testing, but at the end of the day you're only 1 person and that isn't proof in any scientific experiment.

                  In a few weeks people could get used to the promotions tab, so jumping to conclusions yet is hasty. Once people get used to it your emails could be found easier, especially if you have a niche outside IM where people don't sign up too every list in sight.

                  I'll take your feedback into consideration if I see a huge decrease.
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                • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                  Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                  P.S. For others reading this - please realize that the Warrior Forum, while a great place, is full of folks that only repeat what they've heard from others. This leads to spreading of false information. However the forum also has its' share of experts. In business, just like in life, you sometimes have to pick and choose which advice you follow and which advice you "take with a grain of salt".
                  I could not have said it better, Coby.

                  I too prefer to use a self-hosted option using SMTP services such as SMTP.com etc., - and like Coby wrote - (this is VERY important and prevents you from being blacklisted due to email spoofers and identity thieves using your email address to send out their spam) setting up SPF and DKIM is a crucial step in the process - and you can set that up yourself in your cPanel by clicking the "Email Authentication" icon -

                  As for Gmail, one click in my settings, and my inbox was back to the way it was before - one main inbox. So any marketers whose list I signed up for using my Gmail account are still getting my attention unless their mail was already going to the spam folder. LOL.

                  This is interesting about the open rates - and because of this I can't imagine any of the hosted autoresponder services being very happy about Gmail's change at all.
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                • Profile picture of the author JamesBorg
                  Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                  As long as your emails say "sent via Aweber" you will land in the promo tab - that's why the promo tab was created! All those "whitelisted" services have basically just served themselves up on a platter to Google. Now Gmail knows exactly where to "put" their emails...
                  That there is the problem. Marketers seem happy to keep throwing money at providers who go out of their way to make marketing more cumbersome -- whether it's Google with its anti-"information harvesting" policy or autoresponder providers who go above and beyond CAN-SPAM requirements.

                  As seen in the damage-control blog posts to which I linked in my previous post, the providers can depend on the "positive thinking" crew to keep people glued to the providers.
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    • Profile picture of the author writeaway
      Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

      Practically everyone using either AWeber or InfusionSoft already goes to my Gmail spam box unless I specifically add the senders to my contacts. Gmail has always been a challenge so this is really nothing new.

      It's also another reason to host your own mail server vs. using an autoresponder service. Having your own will always result in better deliverability and it's much easier than the propaganda put out by the autoresponder industry would have you believe.
      Wishful thinking. Aweber and other big AR firms are generally whitelisted. If you use your own hosted solution, chances are it will only take a few spam complaints for all your mailers to end up in spam folders. Worst of all, you just have to take the loss since you do not have negotiating clout of AR firms. Just pointing out the obvious.
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by writeaway View Post

        Wishful thinking. Aweber and other big AR firms are generally whitelisted. If you use your own hosted solution, chances are it will only take a few spam complaints for all your mailers to end up in spam folders. Worst of all, you just have to take the loss since you do not have negotiating clout of AR firms. Just pointing out the obvious.
        I think you should do some more research...

        The information you are spreading is not "obvious" and is actually more like a "half truth"...

        But, I'm sure, that like myself, you are speaking from experience. :rolleyes:

        Use an SMTP service and you get the "clout", you get to build YOUR OWN reputation and you let the SMTP do the grunt work. If you pick the right one (not SES) you can have reputation management/monitoring, dedicated IPs and much much more that you will likely NEVER see at solutions like Aweber...

        But I actually hope folks believe what you say and keep doing what they are doing now. I don't mind being all alone in the primary tab. :p

        Cheers,
        Coby

        P.S. Being whitelisted will keep you out of the spam (usually), but can't get you into the primary tab unless your customer actually tells Gmail to put you there by creating a customer filter AND whitelisting your email.
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        • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
          Originally Posted by writeaway View Post

          Wishful thinking. Aweber and other big AR firms are generally whitelisted. If you use your own hosted solution, chances are it will only take a few spam complaints for all your mailers to end up in spam folders. Worst of all, you just have to take the loss since you do not have negotiating clout of AR firms. Just pointing out the obvious.
          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          I think you should do some more research...

          The information you are spreading is not "obvious" and is actually more like a "half truth"...

          But, I'm sure, that like myself, you are speaking from experience. :rolleyes:

          Use an SMTP service and you get the "clout", you get to build YOUR OWN reputation and you let the SMTP do the grunt work. If you pick the right one (not SES) you can have reputation management/monitoring, dedicated IPs and much much more that you will likely NEVER see at solutions like Aweber...

          But I actually hope folks believe what you say and keep doing what they are doing now. I don't mind being all alone in the primary tab. :p

          Cheers,
          Coby

          P.S. Being whitelisted will keep you out of the spam (usually), but can't get you into the primary tab unless your customer actually tells Gmail to put you there by creating a customer filter AND whitelisting your email.

          I'm on two of Coby's lists and when he sends from Aweber it goes right to the promotions tab but when he sends from Mailjet, it goes to the primary tab.
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          • Profile picture of the author Coby
            Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

            Yeah, that's what I thought that it was - an Aweber opt-int list.

            Also it's not so much of being a non believer but more about testing. I have a friend who is an executive at a high end Auto Responder company, they do email marketing for huge ecommerce companies. And she told me that the "Promotions" tab would not affect them, that this is not where their clients email blasts would land. I'm looking to see if this is the case or not.

            So yes, I've opted-in into a few lists to see what kinda response I get.
            Sorry - if my wording was strange. I wasn't accusing YOU of being a non-believer. I was simply confirming that my Aweber would go to the promo tab.

            Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

            I'm on two of Coby's lists and when he sends from Aweber it goes right to the promotions tab but when he sends from Mailjet, it goes to the primary tab.
            Awesome! That's the same feedback I'm getting from others and also from my other testing accounts.

            Thanks for confirming!

            Cheers,
            Coby
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

      Practically everyone using either AWeber or InfusionSoft already goes to my Gmail spam box unless I specifically add the senders to my contacts. Gmail has always been a challenge so this is really nothing new.

      It's also another reason to host your own mail server vs. using an autoresponder service. Having your own will always result in better deliverability and it's much easier than the propaganda put out by the autoresponder industry would have you believe.

      Frank. You know I have a lot of respect for what you do, but I have to disagree with you.

      I have gone hosted and self-hosted with mailing lists.

      And when I was self-hosted, it was an absolute fricking nightmare. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Frank. You know I have a lot of respect for what you do, but I have to disagree with you.

        I have gone hosted and self-hosted with mailing lists.

        And when I was self-hosted, it was an absolute fricking nightmare. :p
        Hey Bill,

        Self hosted is definitely not for everyone...

        But I think you should start testing for yourself again.

        Being self-hosted in 2013 is not the same nightmare as it was only a few short years ago. If you tried to self-host in 2010 it would be VERY hard w/o a ton of technical knowledge (at least more than I had then (and now)).

        These days - self-hosting is a cinch. It can be practically as easy as any Third-Party service.

        We go way back - so if you want help on this you have my contact details. Hit me up and I'll help you out.

        Cheers,
        Coby

        P.S. I know this is hard to wrap your head around and I've had this same discussion numerous times with other marketers. But once you actually get "in the middle of it" you can start to see the difference.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisSWN
    If you write riveting, compelling content that people like to read, the the new tabs will be less of an obstacle.
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    • Profile picture of the author retsced
      Originally Posted by CurtisSWN View Post

      If you write riveting, compelling content that people like to read, the the new tabs will be less of an obstacle.
      I find this to be the case. I haven't seen any decrease in open rates at all since the update. If you write daily emails then people expect, and look out for your messages.
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by retsced View Post

        I find this to be the case. I haven't seen any decrease in open rates at all since the update. If you write daily emails then people expect, and look out for your messages.
        I have to disagree here...

        I have one lady that has been on my list for 3 years (or longer) and replies to my emails often and even will send me the occasional "how you doing" type of email...

        After moving part of my Aweber list to my self-hosted solution the very first email I sent out she replies back saying "Oh my god, I'm so happy to hear from you - I though you had stopped sending emails..."

        The second email I sent - same thing - different customer...

        But I hope y'all stick with Aweber - less competition in the Primary tab

        Cheers,
        Coby

        P.S. And that was only a third of my Aweber list
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennisknows
          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          I have to disagree here...

          I have one lady that has been on my list for 3 years (or longer) and replies to my emails often and even will send me the occasional "how you doing" type of email...

          After moving part of my Aweber list to my self-hosted solution the very first email I sent out she replies back saying "Oh my god, I'm so happy to hear from you - I though you had stopped sending emails..."

          The second email I sent - same thing - different customer...

          But I hope y'all stick with Aweber - less competition in the Primary tab

          Cheers,
          Coby

          P.S. And that was only a third of my Aweber list
          Ha ha.. When I really anchor down on List building, I'm going this route... What are you using for self-hosted email marketing?

          Thanks

          ALso: Here's a generic video you could show your new subscribers. This is what I use.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by retsced View Post

        If you write daily emails then people expect, and look out for your messages.
        Maybe I'm weird, but when ANY marketer sends me DAILY emails, I unsubscribe very quickly! :rolleyes:
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        • Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          Maybe I'm weird, but when ANY marketer sends me DAILY emails, I unsubscribe very quickly! :rolleyes:
          i don't because i made alot of money not doing that, maybe i'm the weird one
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        • Profile picture of the author retsced
          Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

          Maybe I'm weird, but when ANY marketer sends me DAILY emails, I unsubscribe very quickly! :rolleyes:
          What you really mean is that if any marketer who sends crap information to you daily, you unsubscribe. If you unsubscribe from a valuable list with daily emails then quite simply I wouldn't want you on my list in the first place.

          Daily emails actually gets you less unsubscribes, builds trust far quicker and sets expectations. Who on earth doesn't want daily quality information? So if you think about it, surely it's only common sense that it is NOT the daily emails, but what's inside the emails, yes?

          Aren't we all looking for great information on a daily basis? Think about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    Looks like it's time to kick third party services to the curb...

    Without lots of begging and pleading to get your subscribers to whitelist and/or create a custom filter you can pretty much forget about landing in the primary tab as long as your emails say "via Aweber" or "via GetResponse" and so on...

    Now is the time to do something different...

    I've already taken steps against this and I'm seeing an enormous improvement...

    Good luck.

    Cheers,
    Coby
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      It's hilarious how some people are saying that this doesn't effect e-mail marketing in a bad way. As usual most people do not speak from experience. With this gmail update your promotional e-mails have less visibility, which results in less open rates even if your list is highly responsive and you send e-mails of the highest quality.


      Originally Posted by Coby View Post

      Looks like it's time to kick third party services to the curb...

      Without lots of begging and pleading to get your subscribers to whitelist and/or create a custom filter you can pretty much forget about landing in the primary tab as long as your emails say "via Aweber" or "via GetResponse" and so on...

      Now is the time to do something different...

      I've already taken steps against this and I'm seeing an enormous improvement...

      Good luck.

      Cheers,
      Coby
      Great posts, Coby.

      I'm seriously considering hosting my own mail server. Any tips on how to do this? Maybe there's a thread which talks more about this... if there is, then please do share it.

      Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author Newbieee
        For me, as a user, i dont like it already.

        Because it keeps those mails out of sight, and when its out of sight, you know what they say?

        Out of sight, out of mind.
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

        Great posts, Coby.

        I'm seriously considering hosting my own mail server. Any tips on how to do this? Maybe there's a thread which talks more about this... if there is, then please do share it.

        Thanks.
        Here's a few tips...

        1.) Get a list management software like Interspire, ArpReach, Sticky Worm or my new favorite WP AutoMail.

        2.) Sign up for an SMTP service like SendGrid, SMTP.com, Amazon SES, Mandrill or my favorite MailJet.

        3.) Setup SPF & DKIM (this is the key to landing in the primary tab). This is not nearly as scary to do as it sounds.

        4.) Stick to good email marketing practices like using an email from your own domain as the sending address.

        5.) Do the occasional list cleaning to remove inactives.

        It's surprisingly very easy in this day and age to host your own autoresponder. There are so many third party scripts you can use for list management and lots of SMTP providers to use as your email server.

        Hope this helps. I don't know of any other threads that could help, but I'm sure someone will come along and post some good ones to look at.

        Cheers,
        Coby
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        • Profile picture of the author bloggerd
          Cheers Coby certainly going to setup my own what have i got to lose abit of time & few quid on WP AutoMail
          It's worth trying it if it works aswell for me as you awesome
          But if it don't It's not the end of the world.

          "If you don't Try You'll Never know"


          Cheers

          Ian



          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          Here's a few tips...

          1.) Get a list management software like Interspire, ArpReach, Sticky Worm or my new favorite WP AutoMail.

          2.) Sign up for an SMTP service like SendGrid, SMTP.com, Amazon SES or my favorite MailJet.

          3.) Setup SPF & DKIM (this is the key to landing in the primary tab). This is not nearly as scary to do as it sounds.

          4.) Stick to good email marketing practices like using an email from your own domain as the sending address.

          5.) Do the occasional list cleaning to remove inactives.

          It's surprisingly very easy in this day and age to host your own autoresponder. There are so many third party scripts you can use for list management and lots of SMTP providers to use as your email server.

          Hope this helps. I don't know of any other threads that could help, but I'm sure someone will come along and post some good ones to look at.

          Cheers,
          Coby
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        • Profile picture of the author Jemmo
          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          Here's a few tips...

          1.) Get a list management software like Interspire, ArpReach, Sticky Worm or my new favorite WP AutoMail.

          2.) Sign up for an SMTP service like SendGrid, SMTP.com, Amazon SES or my favorite MailJet.

          3.) Setup SPF & DKIM (this is the key to landing in the primary tab). This is not nearly as scary to do as it sounds.

          4.) Stick to good email marketing practices like using an email from your own domain as the sending address.

          5.) Do the occasional list cleaning to remove inactives.

          It's surprisingly very easy in this day and age to host your own autoresponder. There are so many third party scripts you can use for list management and lots of SMTP providers to use as your email server.

          Hope this helps. I don't know of any other threads that could help, but I'm sure someone will come along and post some good ones to look at.

          Cheers,
          Coby
          Sadly, I had a lot of problems with WP Automail & the support was appalling, so I wouldnt recommend it as a plugin yet. If they sort themselves out one day, then great, in the meantime, it might be better to use one of the other recommended services
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          • Profile picture of the author Coby
            Originally Posted by Jemmo View Post

            Sadly, I had a lot of problems with WP Automail & the support was appalling, so I wouldnt recommend it as a plugin yet. If they sort themselves out one day, then great, in the meantime, it might be better to use one of the other recommended services
            Don't worry - there are other options.

            There are a few other plugins that work in a similar manner. There are also a handful of scripts that don't need WordPress. You can even send from most SMTP providers website directly similar to what you would do with Aweber, etc.

            Cheers,
            Coby
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

        It's hilarious how some people are saying that this doesn't effect e-mail marketing in a bad way. As usual most people do not speak from experience. With this gmail update your promotional e-mails have less visibility, which results in less open rates even if your list is highly responsive and you send e-mails of the highest quality.

        It is funny how you imply that I don't know what I am talking about.

        I do come from experience, and my open rates have not dropped at all since Gmail implemented the change.

        I use Aweber and GetResponse.

        24.7% of my subscribers are using Gmail accounts.

        My "open rates" have not dropped at all, which might just indicate that people will go to the other tab to make darn sure they don't miss messages from me.

        My "open rates" actually appear to be just slightly higher now than before Gmail implemented the change, which might indicate that fewer people are losing my emails in their mailbox.

        I am sorry that your experience has been different, but your experience does not appear to be universal. And, your experience certainly does not make me a fool.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Coby
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          It is funny how you imply that I don't know what I am talking about.

          I do come from experience, and my open rates have not dropped at all since Gmail implemented the change.

          I use Aweber and GetResponse.

          24.7% of my subscribers are using Gmail accounts.

          My "open rates" have not dropped at all, which might just indicate that people will go to the other tab to make darn sure they don't miss messages from me.

          My "open rates" actually appear to be just slightly higher now than before Gmail implemented the change, which might indicate that fewer people are losing my emails in their mailbox.

          I am sorry that your experience has been different, but your experience does not appear to be universal. And, your experience certainly does not make me a fool.
          I don't think he was directing that at you Bill in particular

          I'm glad your open rates have not decreased. However, I'm sure you are aware that they have not yet completely rolled this out to all Gmail accounts.

          I have no doubts about the quality of your emails, but it's like real estate... LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION...

          Surely - you can't honestly believe that this will have no long term affect?

          The promotions tab is really just an extension of the spam tab - it's the "in between"...

          I know us okies can be hard-headed, but I think if you put your thinking hat on you'll see that nothing good can come from the promo tab.

          Respectfully Disagreeing.

          Cheers,
          Coby
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          • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
            Originally Posted by Coby View Post

            However, I'm sure you are aware that they have not yet completely rolled this out to all Gmail accounts.
            Really? I wasn't even aware of that. More bad news...
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Coby View Post

            I don't think he was directing that at you Bill in particular

            I'm glad your open rates have not decreased. However, I'm sure you are aware that they have not yet completely rolled this out to all Gmail accounts.

            I have no doubts about the quality of your emails, but it's like real estate... LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION...

            Surely - you can't honestly believe that this will have no long term affect?

            The promotions tab is really just an extension of the spam tab - it's the "in between"...

            I know us okies can be hard-headed, but I think if you put your thinking hat on you'll see that nothing good can come from the promo tab.

            Respectfully Disagreeing.

            Cheers,
            Coby

            Coby, I appreciate your Okie common sense, but let me explain why I think a bunch of folks are jumping the gun on this.

            I run my online business through about 8 different email accounts.

            Without looking, I know that your emails land in my sales@ account.

            Paul Myer's email lands in my cowboys@ account.

            Notices from my hosting and domain registrar accounts, plus some of the affiliate networks, land in my admin@ account.

            All customer interaction goes through my bill@ account.

            The payment notices that I receive land in three email accounts.

            I check most of these email addresses twice daily, and I check all of these addresses weekly.

            Additionally, I run filtering on most of my email accounts, capturing certain mailers in specific folders. For example, anything mailed from Amazon lands in one specific folder in one specific email address account.

            I find the time to open all of my email addresses, because I am incentivized to do so.

            While I may not read everything you send me, I do open many of your emails. LOL Sometimes I even say things to myself like, "What is that guy thinking? He is acting more and more like someone from Tennessee every day."

            I only need one reason to open a specific email account. If the reason to check for that particular email is strong enough, then I will make darn sure I go through that account to be sure I am seeing what I need to see.

            The same thing applies to a sub-folder in your Gmail account. If people find emails they want to see in the Promotions tab, they will be absolutely certain to open that tab.

            With my yahoo account, I do check the spam folder regularly, because some emails I want end up in spam sometimes.

            If I could trust yahoo's spam filter, I would never open the spam folder, but I don't trust it to figure out "what I want to see, and what I don't want to see."

            The same thing will apply to Gmail's spam tab and promotions tab. If people trust that they won't find anything in those tabs that they want to see, they won't open them.

            However, if people believe that there are emails from people they want to read landing in either of those tabs, they will definitely open those tabs to see what they are missing.

            If my readers discover that my emails are landing in the Promotions tab and they want to be sure to read my emails, they will open that tab, because they like the value I bring them in their inbox.

            The only LOCATION that matters is to be where your customers are looking to find you.

            And this is key, they must be "looking to find you".

            If you want more of your readers opening the Promotion tab to find your emails, then you ought to get your people on my list, because people WILL open their Promotions tab to see MY emails. :p
            Signature
            Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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            • Profile picture of the author SterlingWebb
              TPW,

              I have a lot of respect for the level of detail you put into this post. Your system that you use to address every email that hits your inbox seems pretty solid to me.

              However, what I've found is that depending on the demographic of your list you could be far ahead of your subscribers both in the understanding of technology and internet marketing. A lot of times people won't check for something unless they are told to or unless it is directly in their face.


              Sidebar,

              I open all emails partly because all my addresses funnel into one gmail box. Secondly, I'm constantly on my mobile which doesn't have tab filtration (via Apple platform) so I think additional statistics are needed on your specific list to be able to deductively choose a solution.

              I personally am split testing multiple AR solutions and feel I'm not alone.

              Just my two cents!

              Keep this discussion going...

              ~SW
              Signature

              I made it from NEED, now I fight off GREED.

              Having a hard time finding VALUE? Shoot me a PM. It's time to give back.

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              • Profile picture of the author jsmm
                Originally Posted by SterlingWebb View Post

                TPW,

                I have a lot of respect for the level of detail you put into this post. Your system that you use to address every email that hits your inbox seems pretty solid to me.

                However, what I've found is that depending on the demographic of your list you could be far ahead of your subscribers both in the understanding of technology and internet marketing. A lot of times people won't check for something unless they are told to or unless it is directly in their face.


                Sidebar,

                I open all emails partly because all my addresses funnel into one gmail box. Secondly, I'm constantly on my mobile which doesn't have tab filtration (via Apple platform) so I think additional statistics are needed on your specific list to be able to deductively choose a solution.

                I personally am split testing multiple AR solutions and feel I'm not alone.

                Just my two cents!

                Keep this discussion going...

                ~SW
                Great point !
                I am definitely go to try , it has to help..
                Sorry I didn't mean to take up so much of this post with my input but this was a subject that hit home..
                Thanks
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              • Profile picture of the author Coby
                Originally Posted by SterlingWebb View Post


                However, what I've found is that depending on the demographic of your list you could be far ahead of your subscribers both in the understanding of technology and internet marketing. A lot of times people won't check for something unless they are told to or unless it is directly in their face.
                I'm glad you mentioned this!

                This is especially important to me as my primary demographic is 45-65. Meaning, according to my data, the majority of my customers and readers of my blog are not the most technically advanced. (like me, lol).

                We definitely need to keep this in mind with everything we do.

                Cheers,
                Coby
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            • Profile picture of the author Coby
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              Coby, I appreciate your Okie common sense, but let me explain why I think a bunch of folks are jumping the gun on this.

              I run my online business through about 8 different email accounts.

              Without looking, I know that your emails land in my sales@ account.

              Paul Myer's email lands in my cowboys@ account.

              Notices from my hosting and domain registrar accounts, plus some of the affiliate networks, land in my admin@ account.

              All customer interaction goes through my bill@ account.

              The payment notices that I receive land in three email accounts.

              I check most of these email addresses twice daily, and I check all of these addresses weekly.

              Additionally, I run filtering on most of my email accounts, capturing certain mailers in specific folders. For example, anything mailed from Amazon lands in one specific folder in one specific email address account.

              I find the time to open all of my email addresses, because I am incentivized to do so.

              While I may not read everything you send me, I do open many of your emails. LOL Sometimes I even say things to myself like, "What is that guy thinking? He is acting more and more like someone from Tennessee every day."

              I only need one reason to open a specific email account. If the reason to check for that particular email is strong enough, then I will make darn sure I go through that account to be sure I am seeing what I need to see.

              The same thing applies to a sub-folder in your Gmail account. If people find emails they want to see in the Promotions tab, they will be absolutely certain to open that tab.

              With my yahoo account, I do check the spam folder regularly, because some emails I want end up in spam sometimes.

              If I could trust yahoo's spam filter, I would never open the spam folder, but I don't trust it to figure out "what I want to see, and what I don't want to see."

              The same thing will apply to Gmail's spam tab and promotions tab. If people trust that they won't find anything in those tabs that they want to see, they won't open them.

              However, if people believe that there are emails from people they want to read landing in either of those tabs, they will definitely open those tabs to see what they are missing.

              If my readers discover that my emails are landing in the Promotions tab and they want to be sure to read my emails, they will open that tab, because they like the value I bring them in their inbox.

              The only LOCATION that matters is to be where your customers are looking to find you.

              And this is key, they must be "looking to find you".

              If you want more of your readers opening the Promotion tab to find your emails, then you ought to get your people on my list, because people WILL open their Promotions tab to see MY emails. :p
              Bill,

              I'm the same way when it comes to CHECKING emails...

              Except the problem is that you are assuming everyone on your list feels the same way about emails...

              The reality is - even on very responsive lists, over 70% of the people NEVER open the email - EVER - no matter who you are...

              Yes - I have had email campaigns that peaked 50% open rates - but we both know that is not the norm...

              The norm is 20% or less and if you base it on the industry average which is a dysmal 3%... Then I think it's fair to say that people DO NOT look for emails...

              I know - it seems like they do - but the numbers don't lie.

              Now - with that out of the way...

              I DO have folks that SEARCH for my emails and I'm not worried about those folks - you can't shake those folks off with a stick, as you know.

              I'm worried about the other 70%...

              Why would I want to MAKE someone SEARCH for my emails when this IS another solution...

              That just doesn't make sense to me...

              The fact of the matter is - most "average" WSO buyers and Internet Marketing "fans" are NOT going to even know where to look. This was proven to me when one of my very loyal customers replied to one of my emails and told me herself (and she is definitely smarter than you're average "newb").

              We can play the ego game all day and say "yeah, well, that doesn't affect me - MY list is different" - but the truth is, it's not...

              If you were going to build a new brick and mortar business and you had 2 locations to choose from which would you choose? The one next to the interstate with tons of traffic? Or the one located behind a huge warehouse where no one can see you? Granted people that "really wanted" your service would seek you out and no doubt find you. But what about that folks that were only slightly interested and COULD have been customers but didn't want to take the time to find your store or worse never know you existed.

              The fact is that humans are lazy! I mean the fact that just asking for an email address vs email/name increase conversions 10-15% shows you how lazy we are as humans....

              But the question is - how long will people "hunt" for your emails before they lose interest and forget to go looking for them because they aren't landing next to grandma's emails...

              Again - you know I respect your opinion. But I don't think you are seeing the big picture here. Again, I have no doubt about your emails or the quality of your list - but you have to keep in mind those new subscribers you will be adding in the future - you can't expect them to "hunt" for your emails before they even know if they are worth hunting for.

              Cheers,
              Coby

              P.S. I'm moving back to Oklahoma this year.
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                The reality is - even on very responsive lists, over 70% of the people NEVER open the email - EVER - no matter who you are...

                Yes - I have had email campaigns that peaked 50% open rates - but we both know that is not the norm...

                The norm is 20% or less and if you base it on the industry average which is a dysmal 3%... Then I think it's fair to say that people DO NOT look for emails...

                I know - it seems like they do - but the numbers don't lie.

                It is funny you say that Okie. :p

                I am a bit anal when it comes to my mailing lists. I figure that if you did not open a particular email, then there are a number of reasons how that could have happened:

                * You were sick that day;
                * You were distracted;
                * You accidentally threw mine with the list of emails you dumped;
                * I had a terrible subject line;
                * It was the wrong time of day;
                * I sunk to the bottom of your email browser, before you opened your email, and you just missed me.

                Since I figure that everyone who is on my list wanted to be there, I figure I should give them another chance to get that email they missed.

                Every few days, I look at the offers that converted best, then I go to the email I sent to promote that offer, and I compile a list of people who did not open that message and I save that list as a new list.

                Then I take that email I sent previously, put a new subject line on it, and send it to the people who previously failed to open it.

                I will repeat that scenario several times.

                And in doing so, I hit plus 50% open-rates quite frequently. My best open rate on a single email to-date is about 79%.



                p.s. If people think I mail too often, it is because they are not opening my emails anyway. And, if they are not opening my emails, they obviously don't care to hear what I have to say and they should just unsubscribe my list if they are not going to read my emails.



                Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                Now - with that out of the way...

                I DO have folks that SEARCH for my emails and I'm not worried about those folks - you can't shake those folks off with a stick, as you know.

                I'm worried about the other 70%...

                Why would I want to MAKE someone SEARCH for my emails when this IS another solution...

                That just doesn't make sense to me...

                The fact of the matter is - most "average" WSO buyers and Internet Marketing "fans" are NOT going to even know where to look. This was proven to me when one of my very loyal customers replied to one of my emails and told me herself (and she is definitely smarter than you're average "newb").

                We can play the ego game all day and say "yeah, well, that doesn't affect me - MY list is different" - but the truth is, it's not...

                If you were going to build a new brick and mortar business and you had 2 locations to choose from which would you choose? The one next to the interstate with tons of traffic? Or the one located behind a huge warehouse where no one can see you? Granted people that "really wanted" your service would seek you out and no doubt find you. But what about that folks that were only slightly interested and COULD have been customers but didn't want to take the time to find your store or worse never know you existed.

                The fact is that humans are lazy! I mean the fact that just asking for an email address vs email/name increase conversions 10-15% shows you how lazy we are as humans....

                But the question is - how long will people "hunt" for your emails before they lose interest and forget to go looking for them because they aren't landing next to grandma's emails...

                Again - you know I respect your opinion. But I don't think you are seeing the big picture here. Again, I have no doubt about your emails or the quality of your list - but you have to keep in mind those new subscribers you will be adding in the future - you can't expect them to "hunt" for your emails before they even know if they are worth hunting for.

                Cheers,
                Coby

                I had someone send me a PM, as a result of this thread, and tell me that she is changing the email address she used to subscribe to my list from yahoo.com to Gmail.com.

                This person said she was going to move me to Gmail, because Gmail sorted me into the promotion tab.

                This person went on to say friends and family end up in their main email box and the emails she wants to read end up in the promotions tab. She said with the new change, it is her main box she wants to avoid, not the promotion tabbed emails.



                Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                P.S. I'm moving back to Oklahoma this year.

                p.s. Are you going back down south -- as in "almost Texan"?
                Signature
                Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                • Profile picture of the author Coby
                  Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                  It is funny you say that Okie. :p

                  I am a bit anal when it comes to my mailing lists. I figure that if you did not open a particular email, then there are a number of reasons how that could have happened:

                  * You were sick that day;
                  * You were distracted;
                  * You accidentally threw mine with the list of emails you dumped;
                  * I had a terrible subject line;
                  * It was the wrong time of day;
                  * I sunk to the bottom of your email browser, before you opened your email, and you just missed me.

                  Since I figure that everyone who is on my list wanted to be there, I figure I should give them another chance to get that email they missed.

                  Every few days, I look at the offers that converted best, then I go to the email I sent to promote that offer, and I compile a list of people who did not open that message and I save that list as a new list.

                  Then I take that email I sent previously, put a new subject line on it, and send it to the people who previously failed to open it.

                  I will repeat that scenario several times.

                  And in doing so, I hit plus 50% open-rates quite frequently. My best open rate on a single email to-date is about 79%.



                  p.s. If people think I mail too often, it is because they are not opening my emails anyway. And, if they are not opening my emails, they obviously don't care to hear what I have to say and they should just unsubscribe my list if they are not going to read my emails.
                  I use the same strategy... Every email marketer should...

                  But my current testing is showing that I'm having to re-send half as often... Or in other words - I'm now getting the same amount of opens from ONE email that was previously taking me two emails from Aweber.


                  I had someone send me a PM, as a result of this thread, and tell me that she is changing the email address she used to subscribe to my list from yahoo.com to Gmail.com.

                  This person said she was going to move me to Gmail, because Gmail sorted me into the promotion tab.

                  This person went on to say friends and family end up in their main email box and the emails she wants to read end up in the promotions tab. She said with the new change, it is her main box she wants to avoid, not the promotion tabbed emails.
                  See - I had the exact opposite happen.

                  I had one lady, that has been a customer of mine since the very beginning, reply to the first email I sent from my self-host after moving part of my Aweber list over...

                  Now, she is NOT dumb...

                  But she said she had NO IDEA about the new Gmail tabs and if I hadn't sent that email (that landed in her primary tab) she wouldn't have even known about it... (she is also a member of this forum)

                  So, this is one example of someone that "wants" my emails. She has even gone as far as to send me a personal email in the past when I didn't send an email for a few days just to see if I was "okay"...

                  So, as stated earlier - most of my customers are of the "older" generation. And they - like myself are not very technically advanced (probably why they can relate so well to me)...

                  If one of my "loyalest" customers - who is also a good representative of my whole customer base - thinks that I "quit emailing" what are the ones that don't like me "as much" thinking...

                  2nd email I sent out - I had a gentleman reply back with the same line of thought. Although his words were "Coby, long time no hear, where ya been?"...

                  So, while it may not make sense to "make changes" in your own business. It definitely makes a ton of sense for me to make changes in my own business.

                  But no matter what I say or what I show you as proof - you will never believe me, lol. That's cool - that's what leads to great discussions.

                  Some folks will continue to market from the Promo Tab or the Spam folder - but personally I will take steps to avoid it all together...

                  Now - for the folks saying "if they want your email - they can move you to the primary box"... Well this goes in reverse for those saying that their customers "enjoy the promo tab"...

                  So - we can argue this till we are blue in the face or we can agree to disagree. :p

                  I've seen the proof firsthand - both from my own customers mouth and with the testing I've been doing way before the tabs were introduced (we all knew it was coming). So I'll stick to my plan - y'all stick to yours. We will have to wait a few years to see which strategy is better (if there is a "better").

                  This is just one of those things that will always be argued - just like the Aweber vs GetResponse vs iContact vs Constant Contact debate. Some will say one is better than the other. Some will switch from one to another. Some will try all four. The truth remains - no one knows what's best for your business but you.


                  p.s. Are you going back down south -- as in "almost Texan"?
                  Yep! But at least I'll be on the right side of the red river!
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    • Profile picture of the author GlenH
      Originally Posted by Coby View Post

      Looks like it's time to kick third party services to the curb...

      Without lots of begging and pleading to get your subscribers to whitelist and/or create a custom filter you can pretty much forget about landing in the primary tab as long as your emails say "via Aweber" or "via GetResponse" and so on...

      Now is the time to do something different...

      I've already taken steps against this and I'm seeing an enormous improvement...

      Good luck.

      Cheers,
      Coby
      With the ecommerce platform I've used for years, emails are only 'branded' with MY valid email addresses in the 'From' field(eg glen@mysitesname.com).

      There is no.." via whatever plaform" branding at all (like there is with Aweber, Getresponse..Infustionsoft etc).

      So in checking with a number of my subscribers, all my emails have been going into their 'Primary' tabs.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
        Originally Posted by GlenH View Post

        With the ecommerce platform I've used for years, emails are only 'branded' with MY valid email addresses in the 'From' field(eg glen@mysitesname.com).

        There is no.." via whatever plaform" branding at all (like there is with Aweber, Getresponse..Infustionsoft etc).

        So in checking with a number of my subscribers, all my emails have been going into their 'Primary' tabs.
        Which platform are you using?
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by fin View Post

        I'm not going to argue with you about it. I appreciate you've done some testing, but at the end of the day you're only 1 person and that isn't proof in any scientific experiment.

        In a few weeks people could get used to the promotions tab, so jumping to conclusions yet is hasty. Once people get used to it your emails could be found easier, especially if you have a niche outside IM where people don't sign up too every list in sight.

        I'll take your feedback into consideration if I see a huge decrease.
        All email marketers WISH that it was me - just 1.

        There will never be scientific proof...

        This will be debated for a very long time...

        Just like people are still debating who has better deliverability between Aweber and GetResponse...

        Some marketers will adapt - most wont...

        Some will switch to a different solution (and have worse results)...

        Some will work really hard to educate their customers about it (but most won't)...

        One thing you are forgetting though... This is still only been rolled out to about 50% of the Gmail accounts - I still have two accounts that the tabs haven't showed up in yet. So this is just the beginning - not the end.

        Originally Posted by GlenH View Post

        With the ecommerce platform I've used for years, emails are only 'branded' with MY valid email addresses in the 'From' field(eg glen@mysitesname.com).

        There is no.." via whatever plaform" branding at all (like there is with Aweber, Getresponse..Infustionsoft etc).

        So in checking with a number of my subscribers, all my emails have been going into their 'Primary' tabs.
        I bet you have SPF and DKIM set up properly for your solution. This is the key!

        I have nothing against Aweber - I love them - but as long as they send my emails a "via Aweber" I have no hope of hitting the primary tab. I actually researched into using SPF and DKIM with Aweber several months ago...

        Cheers,
        Coby
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Coby's on to some gold here...

    I noticed that there's a certain famous email marketer (who sells alcohol) and he's sneaking into my main gmail tab.

    How you ask?

    Well, he's not using Aweber.

    Or Infusionsoft.

    Or Getresponse.

    Or any of the "software as a service" email providers.

    Maybe it's time to get self host your mailing system?

    :]
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  • Profile picture of the author zahanega
    Is there a way to fiddle the settings to control which emails go under which tab on gmail? I don't use gmail myself so I'm not sure. But perhaps you could tell your subscribers to configure their settings so that your emails don't get sent to the Promotions tab. Similar idea to adding your address into their contacts list so that your emails don't get marked as spam either.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pilotben
    Thank you Coby for these excellent tips.

    I have been thinking about doing self hosting email, but it seems like a mammoth task. I am very sure I'll have a good dose of "pulling my hair out" moments, but I'm going to give it a go. Personally I think it is the way forward. I really don't want to "loose" hard earned subscribers because they are not checking their promotions tab.

    Regards
    Ben
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    • Profile picture of the author Newbieee
      Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

      Maybe I'm weird, but when ANY marketer sends me DAILY emails, I unsubscribe very quickly! :rolleyes:
      Hahaha!

      You are not alone.
      Signature
      Pain is a perception, so is defeat & happiness!
      & what doesn't
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    • Profile picture of the author hseitz
      Originally Posted by Pilotben View Post

      Thank you Coby for these excellent tips.

      I have been thinking about doing self hosting email, but it seems like a mammoth task. I am very sure I'll have a good dose of "pulling my hair out" moments, but I'm going to give it a go. Personally I think it is the way forward. I really don't want to "loose" hard earned subscribers because they are not checking their promotions tab.

      Regards
      Ben
      Self-hosted email is definitely the way to go... PROVIDED that you are sending content that people want to receive. I always tell people that there are good senders and "bad" senders with any ESP. If you're the "bad" sender, then your emails will make it straight to the junk folder or, worse, get blocked altogether. So, as long as your sending quality email that your people WANT to receive, it's the best solution by far. If you're sending emails that look and feel like spam, then it's not going to matter what service you use to send through.

      A few things...

      You DO need to make sure that you have everything setup properly from the beginning: DKIM, domainkeys (even though some will say it doesn't matter anymore), SPF and SenderID. I'd recommend DMARC as well...

      Then, you need to make sure that you're handling complaints and maintaining list hygiene (email clients are "okay" with this, so you'll need to pay more careful attention) and then respond to blocks that the ISPs notify you of in a timely manner.
      Signature

      Are You Losing Sales Because Your Emails aren't getting delivered? Which of these email deliverability problems do you have? Find out at email delivered.

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  • Profile picture of the author TwistedRoo
    Gmail Team mail-noreply@google.com via gmail.com
    8:13 PM (58 minutes ago)




    to Mike


    Be careful with this message. Our systems couldn't verify that this message was really sent by google.com. You might want to avoid clicking links or replying with personal information. Learn more

    This kinda explains where they are at. Sending their own emails to spam box. Go figure.
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  • Profile picture of the author curationsoft
    we can adjust to changes of gmail, everything that is new will always have some taste of difficulty but we can get through it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Carol_A
    Yeah, mixed reviews for sure. I've created an informative blog post about it and also emailed my list alerting them and directing them to the blog post.

    Haven't tested anything with regards to open rates, but my goal is always to help others and stay engaged and grounded, so just doing my best to treat others the way I want to be treated.

    Let come what may...

    Have a great weekend.

    - Carol
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    From what I can see the update hasn't even fully finished being rolled out yet? So if your seeing decreases now, I'm sure it will get much worse.

    Also, again people pointing out the obvious "build a relationship" blah blah, but yet again, as already pointed out - you can't build a relationship if people don't see your stuff.

    So it all well having a EXISTING list which you have a relationship but as soon as you start adding new subscribers, you too will be in the same predicament as everyone else.

    And as Coby has pointed out, self hosted is the way to go, even if you get blacklisted you can easily change ip/domain and your good to go!
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  • Profile picture of the author marketingg
    Hey i have an internal system which sends out private message alerts. I made a sample test to 3 different gmail and none hit promos;... So basically i can just send out Messages from the admin if needed. Wont this get me in trouble or get my other messages blocked eventually? My TOS describe i have the right to do it but just wondering if there are any cons to doing this.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheBizHelp
    Banned
    Your open rate shouldn't be affected that much if you offer value to your subscribers in the stead of consistent promotions.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by Louis K Kennedy View Post

      Your open rate shouldn't be affected that much if you offer value to your subscribers in the stead of consistent promotions.

      FYI one of my lists is not an "ordinary promotional" list. By that I mean that I don't use it to promote affiliate products. The open rates were decreased nonetheless.

      Less visibility = Less open rates. It does not matter how good your e-mails are.
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  • Profile picture of the author HollieHawley
    Hmm. . .

    A savvy (and knowledgeable) internet marketer could make a pretty penny with a set of videos showing you how to change from a commercial auto-responder to a self-serve alternative. I am not that knowledgeable internet marketer but I sure hope someone out there is . . .
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    My question is, how deeply ingrained will Google go if in fact they do classify certain auto responders beyond Aweber, etc. For instance, how about the big guys like Marketo, Pardot, and others that do email marketing for big companies?

    Will they also be sent to the Promotions tab?

    Keep in mind these are big companies with a lot of pull. It will be interesting to see how they are affected and how they respond.

    In other words - email marketing goes well beyond the scope than your average Aweber, GetResponse, etc.

    I would like to hear more feedback from the results others are getting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    @Coby

    "Welcome to Fight Club. The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fight Club!"

    -Tyler Durden

    **************************************************

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author hodari
    Even if your emails are great it will not matter. The promotions tab becomes a blindspot when I'm reading emails out of my primary tab. Only if there are a large number of emails on the "tab" itself in green will I look.

    Marketers will have to educate their list. Some have sent me emails educating on how to look for their email and move it to the primary tab. To be certain you the subscriber get all the good stuff ! But it is a smart move.

    If you are in the promotion tab it is the land of forgotten toys. Compound that if your emails are going to a throwaway email account. Educate the list.
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  • Profile picture of the author jsmm
    I do not know what everyone is going threw but I went threw my lists and almost 65% of my lists consist of gmail subscribers . So I did some special tracking for the last couple of days and I am at a loss for words with what I found.

    Bottom line NOBODY opens promotions in gmail..
    I hate google and please spread the word not too use google products they hate you and do not want your business anyway this way they cannot keep hurting us . They are trying to do everything in their power to put you and I out of business. Did you notice that they do not put there own promotional emails for adwords google plus etc in the promotions folder.
    What does that say ...
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      It is funny how you imply that I don't know what I am talking about.
      It's funny how you imply that I claim that you do not know what you're talking about when my post (the one you quoted) was NOT directed at you. How can it be directed at you when you did not even share your experience back then?

      Here's your post:

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Frank. You know I have a lot of respect for what you do, but I have to disagree with you.

      I have gone hosted and self-hosted with mailing lists.

      And when I was self-hosted, it was an absolute fricking nightmare. :p
      And here's mine, the one you quoted:

      Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

      It's hilarious how some people are saying that this doesn't effect e-mail marketing in a bad way. As usual most people do not speak from experience. With this gmail update your promotional e-mails have less visibility, which results in less open rates even if your list is highly responsive and you send e-mails of the highest quality.

      They are totally unrelated, so why did you think it was directed at you?


      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      I do come from experience, and my open rates have not dropped at all since Gmail implemented the change.

      I use Aweber and GetResponse.

      24.7% of my subscribers are using Gmail accounts.
      About half of my subscribers use Gmail accounts.



      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      My "open rates" have not dropped at all, which might just indicate that people will go to the other tab to make darn sure they don't miss messages from me.

      My "open rates" actually appear to be just slightly higher now than before Gmail implemented the change, which might indicate that fewer people are losing my emails in their mailbox.

      That doesn't prove that the Gmail update did not have a bad effect on open rates. You need to take a look at the open rates of the Gmail users not the other subscribers.
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      • Profile picture of the author hometutor
        Will the promo filter be hit when you bcc 20 or less people?

        Rick
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        • Profile picture of the author helen jones
          Banned
          Anyone knows how long these problems will take? I use Gmail a lot and it can bring so many disadvantages for those in the email marketing niche.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

        It's funny how you imply that I claim that you do not know what you're talking about when my post (the one you quoted) was NOT directed at you. How can it be directed at you when you did not even share your experience back then?

        They are totally unrelated, so why did you think it was directed at you?

        Frankly, because I said the same thing in another thread and did not realize that it wasn't this thread where I said it.

        Only 40 of my Gmail subscribers who opened the emails I sent in June failed to do so in July. That is an incredibly small number of people who stopped seeing my messages because my emails are now in the Promotions tab instead of their main email box.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author kennyreigh
      I agree totally with your assessment of Google. They do all they can to disrupt online marketing, with rule after rule after new rule, and everyone seems to esteem them as gods with their decisions. People need to limit themselves to google if in any way possible. They seem to think it a game to keep dropping all of this garbage on the lowly marketer. The part that I hate here in the forum is when you finally click on an offer, you gotta hear the blah blah blah Google garbage. There is tonnage of google this and google that crap in here. All of these master mind marketers and tekkies in here ought to be able to find a definitive way to bring them down, even if it is to create a browser with relative services ( <----an impossibility ), or in other words a serious way to avoid their crap and services all together....
      When most speak of Google they do so in a tone of reverance, when it should be distaste for their services and restrictions.
      Instead of "Google has a new update (yadda-yadda-yadda-) and here is a plugin"...
      It would be more appropo if it were "Hey Google is F..k... with us again, but I gt a little sump'n here to F..k 'em back".
      That will get your plugin massive sells, instead of sounded like, you love their BS.
      They are aware of your plugins and creations, but they continue to screw everyone, because not once have they seen disdain against what they do. If ya voice your distaste instead of adoration for their next implementation of BS, it will start to serve its' purpose and tone things down, because no power regardless of how formiddable wants a coup, from the little people that make them exist. I say no more speaking of them with such praise and exalting them. Do the opposite and take the eye view of..."you F..k... with my money again (yadda yadda yadda).
      I just hate the way people percieve them even after the crap they implement constantly. They should not be spoken of so highly in any context, especially when you are speaking of a solution to a problematic update that Google has created. You gotta speak in terms of dislike, to at least make a dent in their armor. (my opinion only). I'm just saying!
      (Pass It On)
      Signature
      KennyReigh
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  • Profile picture of the author jsmm
    I haven't ever opened a email in promotions yet. Didn't even noticed that they are back to segregation until Friday when someone mention it.
    Now if I did notice it, you think for one minute that a housewife or someone that works a 9 to 5 is going to? No way!

    So I tested and sent out extra cool stuff with broadcasts and so on so I could track.
    Just look at your confirmations that opt in to your list that come from gmail and you will see ...
    What made me start to be a little weary at first was the fact of my all of a sudden poor open rate .Then I herd talk about the change.

    Then I looked at all of my subscribers to see the amount of them that are using gmail, almost 65% of my lists are using gmail.
    My open rate is 65% down along with 92% of gmail confirmations that subscribed but didn't confirm that use gmail.

    Numbers do not lie just people...
    Not talking about anyone special in general...
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  • Profile picture of the author Fenshon
    This is a very interesting thread about email marketing. I've been getting scared ending up as promotional
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  • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
    Subscribers aren't going to be blinded by the TABS forever.

    People aren't stupid.

    Once they get used to how the new system works they'll
    gladly look out for your emails no matter which tab the
    email lands in.

    Besides this is another test for us all to enjoy.

    We are human beings we live to GROW, LEARN & DISCOVER.

    In all honesty I haven't seen any change at all.

    I've seen an increase.

    Is that just because my list is constantly growing?

    Who knows?

    As long as you create a good first impression I think
    people will learn to stretch themselves a little and reach
    for the "Promo Tab".

    All the best guys
    Gavin
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by gcbmark20 View Post

      Subscribers aren't going to be blinded by the TABS forever.

      People aren't stupid.

      Once they get used to how the new system works they'll
      gladly look out for your emails no matter which tab the
      email lands in.

      Besides this is another test for us all to enjoy.

      We are human beings we live to GROW, LEARN & DISCOVER.

      In all honesty I haven't seen any change at all.

      I've seen an increase.

      Is that just because my list is constantly growing?

      Who knows?

      As long as you create a good first impression I think
      people will learn to stretch themselves a little and reach
      for the "Promo Tab".

      All the best guys
      Gavin
      Why make them hunt?

      People will look in the spam folder also...

      Should we not be concerned with staying out of the spam folder?

      Cheers
      Coby

      P.S. I wouldn't worry about your "increase" until the tabs are completely rolled out - they are only implemented in about 50% of gmail accounts so far.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    There are plenty of conflicting studies out there regarding people's behavior when it comes to both opting in and receiving e-mail messages. Also people reading their emails on their pcs versus mobile devices, etc.

    I've looked at all my current lists and about 14.8% of them use gmail. Overall my open rates have gone down 6% over the past 30 day period, but that could be attributed to many factors, not just the Gmail change. And since I haven't specifically tested for it, I don't have any real hard data. But an educated guess would be that it has had SOME impact. Interestingly enough, sales have remained the same.

    What I am doing on most of my thank you pages is to remind people to white-list me and have updated my gmail instructions and that has had some impact.

    That doesn't mean people still won't fall through the cracks, because they will. One common theme among these studies from places like eMarketer, iSuppli, etc. Is that people are bombarded with e-mails and that each extra step you make them take increases the chances that they will NOT either see or open your e-mail.

    You want to make sure they are going to white list as soon as possible because the data shows that if they don't after they opt-in, chances are they won't.

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      What I am doing on most of my thank you pages is to remind people to white-list me and have updated my gmail instructions and that has had some impact.
      Yes as long as we remain with aweber and the like I think that's all we can do to lessen the damage done by this update. The problem is that the space used for telling people to whitelist you can be used for other important stuff, like selling an OTO or something else.
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  • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
    As a Gmail user I was pleasantly surprised when my inbox was no longer flooded with dozens of promotional emails. I didn't even notice the tabs until a day or two later when I started to wonder why I wasn't getting any emails.

    Now I know what all the fuss is about.

    Not a single email from any marketer on here (or anywhere else) has made it to my primary tab.

    And to be completely honest, I don't check my promo tab too often unless there's something I just signed up for and it wasn't on the primary tab.

    This is a pretty big deal if you asked me; I'm sure it will negatively affect most email marketers that have their emails land in the promo tab.

    Although I also noticed emails from Amazon and other big companies land there as well. I don't think they're going to be too happy about that.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by tooAlive View Post

      As a Gmail user I was pleasantly surprised when my inbox was no longer flooded with dozens of promotional emails. I didn't even notice the tabs until a day or two later when I started to wonder why I wasn't getting any emails.

      Now I know what all the fuss is about.

      Not a single email from any marketer on here (or anywhere else) has made it to my primary tab.

      And to be completely honest, I don't check my promo tab too often unless there's something I just signed up for and it wasn't on the primary tab.

      This is a pretty big deal if you asked me; I'm sure it will negatively affect most email marketers that have their emails land in the promo tab.

      Although I also noticed emails from Amazon and other big companies land there as well. I don't think they're going to be too happy about that.
      That's the thing. The promotional tab is barely noticeable! In fact I didn't notice it either and found out only after reading about it. You would think they would at least make it noticeable but no, they had to blend it in to make it almost invisible.
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      • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
        Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

        That's the thing. The promotional tab is barely noticeable! In fact I didn't notice it either and found out only after reading about it. You would think they would at least make it noticeable but no, they had to blend it in to make it almost invisible.
        To be honest, I actually like the update as a user. It makes it a LOT easier to sift through emails and delete unwanted ones.

        To the guys that were hit the hardest; remember this was a brand new update and many people had no idea that tab even existed. I know I sure didn't. I don't think the worst is still to come, as this is probably as bad as it's gonna get. Once people get accustomed to the third tab, things should get better.

        After looking through my promo folder, I see emails from Amazon, Newegg, other stores I'm subscribed to and even my affiliate networks.

        This wasn't an attack to all marketers. It was made to help people organize their emails. I doubt Google would roll out an update that would severely affect some of the industries biggest players like Amazon.

        Amazon is pretty aggressive with their email marketing. So if they can make it work on the promo tab, there's no reason why we shouldn't. I'd watch the big players to see if they change anything up. If you suddenly start seeing Amazon or similar emails in your primary folder (I doubt it) you'll know the update was bad. Otherwise, make it work.
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    • Profile picture of the author SterlingWebb
      Originally Posted by tooAlive View Post

      Although I also noticed emails from Amazon and other big companies land there as well. I don't think they're going to be too happy about that.
      This stood out to me. You could argue that a % change of open rates is bad for any business but Amazon has political motivations against trying to end in the primary tab that most IMers would never dream of dealing with.

      Some of the "big timer's" structure makes sense to learn from but to tie back into the overarching debate you don't see Amazon's emails "hosted via aWeber"

      ~SW
      Signature

      I made it from NEED, now I fight off GREED.

      Having a hard time finding VALUE? Shoot me a PM. It's time to give back.

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  • Profile picture of the author ironman2000
    I have not experience such a decrease of opened email from people I follow or they follow me........................maybe because I have a very select group and don't send out mass emails to annoy people and fill up their inbox etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
    Call me crazy, but I think this could actually help BOOST open rates and conversions.

    In a couple of weeks people will adapt to the change and start opening their promo folder more.

    But more importantly, the act of clicking the "Promotions" tab means the person is actually interested in seeing promotions. Instead of being bombarded by your emails, they're actually looking for them. They're getting into "buy mode." Think of it as a landing page warming up the buyer to your offer.

    And not only that, but chances are they're actually going to see your email, as they're not all together with their personal messages and thousands of Facebook updates. That alone is worth being in a separate tab.

    Think of ways this update can actually help you before making unnecessary changes too early. For starters, I'd say you could start mailing much more aggressively without putting off your subscribers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Plugin Profits
      I open every single email I get even if I know it's spam. Not to read them all, only to mark them as read as I can't stand it showing I have unread emails and not knowing how many of them are new since I last checked. Then I delete the ones I don't want, while I read the ones that interest me in the moment and save the one's I might want to read later to come back to them if I ever do. Opening them has nothing to do with indictating that I read them at all, ever. People have to open emails also to unsub to them instead of read them.

      So of course since that is how I handle my own email, it must be how everyone handles theirs... :rolleyes:

      It'll be interesting to see how this effects things longer term and what happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author brittlesnc
    Some good information in this thread but I'm curious about the following:

    1. How the changes to Gmail are affecting list builders that aren't in markets/niches related to IM, make money, writing, copywriting, etc?

    I ask this because subscribers on those kind of lists tend to be more knowledgeable and informed about how email subscription works and would probably know/realize that if their not receiving their email subscription in the primary tab to look in the promo tab or in their "spam tab" whereas someone subscribers on a list about shrimp fishing or "couponing" might not be.

    2. I've noticed people mentioning how much OR how little this change is affecting their current subscribers but what about brand new subscribers that you're just beginning to build a "relationship" with who you haven't had enough time to impress/connect with (like you have long-time subscribers) and who might not go out of their way to look for you in the promo tab because you don't have as strong of a relationship built with them yet?

    3. Will it be enough, on a scale of 1 to 10 with a 10 being the best content and a 1 being the worst content, to be a 7 or an 8...or will marketers seriously have to step it up to a 9 or a 10 if they want current AND new subscribers to seek them out in the promo tab and/or move their emails to the primary tab (whitelist)?

    4. And outside of asking new and current subscribers to whitelist your email/move your email to their primary tab so that they continue to get your messages and/or using self-hosted AR, what else can email marketers do to increase the odds that their messages will be moved to the primary tab (let alone opened)?

    Honestly, most of us know that this change with Gmail isn't the end of email marketing nor has it even crippled email marketing but it definitely hasn't made it easier.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by brittlesnc View Post

      1. How the changes to Gmail are affecting list builders that aren't in markets/niches related to IM, make money, writing, copywriting, etc?

      I ask this because subscribers on those kind of lists tend to be more knowledgeable and informed about how email subscription works and would probably know/realize that if their not receiving their email subscription in the primary tab to look in the promo tab or in their "spam tab" whereas someone subscribers on a list about shrimp fishing or "couponing" might not be.
      Yes somebody mentioned this previously in this thread or another. As you said people in non-IM niches are usually not as knowledgeable in these matters as people in the IM niche. My guess is that the open rates for e-mail marketers in those niches will decrease even more.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I think most folks are assuming that most people who subscribe to our lists aren't smart enough to figure out how to operate their email.

    I think most folks are also assuming that people who subscribe to our mailing lists don't want to receive email from us.

    I think that most people who didn't want our emails aren't going to read them whether they fall in the main mailbox or the promo tab.

    One last thing I would like to share is that I think it is fool-hearty to sweat over whether those people who don't want to read our emails are going to try to find us in another folder or not. If they don't want our emails, it doesn't matter where our emails land -- they are unwanted.

    Either my readers love me, or they don't read my emails because they don't give a hoot about what I say.

    The first group will find my emails. The second group should unsubscribe.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonBennet
    My open rate has come down too. But I agree with the other Warrior to check the open rate by sending email to those subscribers who are using Gmail account. But if there is a lot of your subscribers who are using Gmail, then I suspect that your open rate in general will be down. I am sure there will be some smart marketers who will come out with a good solution to this problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author NewbieLifer
    Completely ignorant here. My personal email address is a gmail account. I have been waiting and watching for this new promotions tab to show up and it hasn't. Is it because I have so many folders already created, I don't know. So, I asked to see my husbands gmail account and he DOES have the promotions tab.

    So....what gets your email sent to the promotions tab? Is it the service it is coming from(aweber, etc).? The subject line? What exactly triggers it to be sent to the new tab? I HAVE noticed a 9% decrease rate in my open rates on average. However, probably only about 20% of my subscribers are gmail addresses. Note- I use Mailchimp. Anyone know if this provider is getting sent to the new promotions tab?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by NewbieLifer View Post

      Completely ignorant here. My personal email address is a gmail account. I have been waiting and watching for this new promotions tab to show up and it hasn't. Is it because I have so many folders already created, I don't know. So, I asked to see my husbands gmail account and he DOES have the promotions tab.

      So....what gets your email sent to the promotions tab? Is it the service it is coming from(aweber, etc).? The subject line? What exactly triggers it to be sent to the new tab? I HAVE noticed a 9% decrease rate in my open rates on average. However, probably only about 20% of my subscribers are gmail addresses. Note- I use Mailchimp. Anyone know if this provider is getting sent to the new promotions tab?
      20% of your subscribers use Gmail and you noticed a 9% decrease. About 50% of my subscribers have Gmail accounts and I noticed a 20% decrease. So basically we have experienced the same reduction rates.

      Apparently e-mails sent with autoresponders such as aweber and getresponse are stored in this promotions tab. Another member said that not all gmail accounts have a promotions tab yet, so maybe that's why you don't have one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by NewbieLifer View Post

      Completely ignorant here. My personal email address is a gmail account. I have been waiting and watching for this new promotions tab to show up and it hasn't. Is it because I have so many folders already created, I don't know. So, I asked to see my husbands gmail account and he DOES have the promotions tab.

      So....what gets your email sent to the promotions tab? Is it the service it is coming from(aweber, etc).? The subject line? What exactly triggers it to be sent to the new tab? I HAVE noticed a 9% decrease rate in my open rates on average. However, probably only about 20% of my subscribers are gmail addresses. Note- I use Mailchimp. Anyone know if this provider is getting sent to the new promotions tab?
      They haven't finished implementing the tabs in all gmail accounts yet. Last I heard they had only converted about 50% of their accounts so far.

      Hope this helps.

      Cheers,
      Coby

      P.S. I don't use MailChimp (although I have in the past), but if they send emails that say "via MailChimp" which they likely do, then yes they will end up in the "promo tab".
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      • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
        Originally Posted by Coby View Post

        They haven't finished implementing the tabs in all gmail accounts yet. Last I heard they had only converted about 50% of their accounts so far.
        Note: I just rolled out to my Google Apps account. They're definitely speeding up the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author mbacak
    All this talk about open rates getting killed?

    How about click-thru rate?

    I manage clicks and haven't seen a significant drop...

    Curious
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    • Profile picture of the author NewbieLifer
      What????? How can they click through if they haven't opened it or haven't seen the email to open it??? Yeah, click through rate is the same as it was before. Doesn't do much good if it's reaching less people.
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      • Profile picture of the author mbacak
        Originally Posted by NewbieLifer View Post

        What????? How can they click through if they haven't opened it or haven't seen the email to open it??? Yeah, click through rate is the same as it was before. Doesn't do much good if it's reaching less people.
        How? Well...

        Just because people open doesn't
        mean that they will click.. that's the
        job of the email not the subject line.

        If you track on a daily basis and
        split test daily it's very noticeable.

        Let's say your testing radically different
        subject lines with the same body copy (email)

        You send to 100,000 subs:

        EXAMPLE:

        Subject Line #1:
        Subject = 21% open rate
        Email = 2% click rate

        That would equal:
        21,000 opens
        2,000 clicks

        Subject Line #2:
        Subject = 15% open rate
        Email = 6% click rate

        That would equal:
        15,000 opens
        6,000 clicks

        Open rate does not equal clickrate.
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        • Profile picture of the author NewbieLifer
          Originally Posted by mbacak View Post

          How? Well...

          Just because people open doesn't
          mean that they will click.. that's the
          job of the email not the subject line.

          If you track on a daily basis and
          split test daily it's very noticeable.

          Let's say your testing radically different
          subject lines with the same body copy (email)

          You send to 100,000 subs:

          EXAMPLE:

          Subject Line #1:
          Subject = 21% open rate
          Email = 2% click rate

          That would equal:
          21,000 opens
          2,000 clicks

          Subject Line #2:
          Subject = 15% open rate
          Email = 6% click rate

          That would equal:
          15,000 opens
          6,000 clicks

          Open rate does not equal clickrate.
          YES, Marketing 101.....but they have to OPEN IT FIRST. % of click through is the same. Open rate is less because it is reaching less people due to gmail's filter...
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          • Profile picture of the author mbacak
            Originally Posted by NewbieLifer View Post

            YES, Marketing 101.....but they have to OPEN IT FIRST. % of click through is the same.
            That's not entirely true...

            Originally Posted by mbacak View Post

            Let's say your testing radically different
            subject lines with the same body copy (email)

            You send to 100,000 subs:

            EXAMPLE:

            Subject Line #1:
            Subject = 21% open rate
            Email = 2% click rate

            That would equal:
            21,000 opens
            2,000 clicks

            Subject Line #2:
            Subject = 15% open rate
            Email = 6% click rate

            That would equal:
            15,000 opens
            6,000 clicks
            Open rate does not equal clickrate.

            Originally Posted by NewbieLifer View Post

            Open rate is less because it is reaching less people due to gmail's filter...
            Hence, my original question for those who track on a regular
            basis... has anyone seen a noticeable different in your avg clicks?

            P.S. NewbieLifer - I'm not trying to argue, I'm curious to know a
            solid answer from someone that regularly tracks numbers/clicks.
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            • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
              The metric to keep a closer eye on is SALES generated
              from each e-mail.

              Not all clicks are created equal.

              Not all opens are created equal either.

              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
              Signature

              .

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    • Profile picture of the author mbacak
      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      The metric to keep a closer eye on is SALES generated from each e-mail.
      Actually in email marketing that's EPC, which
      has everything to do with clicks which brings me
      back to my original question that no one seems
      to be able to give me any answer on...

      Originally Posted by mbacak View Post

      All this talk about open rates getting killed?

      How about click-thru rate?

      I manage clicks and haven't seen a significant drop...

      Curious
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  • Profile picture of the author doriono
    I don't think there would be much difference in open rate after new gmail's tabs. But certainly, it's good to follow what Coby said:

    1.) Get a list management software like Interspire, ArpReach, Sticky Worm or my new favorite WP AutoMail.
    2.) Sign up for an SMTP service like SendGrid, SMTP.com, Amazon SES or my favorite MailJet.
    3.) Setup SPF & DKIM (this is the key to landing in the primary tab). This is not nearly as scary to do as it sounds.
    4.) Stick to good email marketing practices like using an email from your own domain as the sending address.
    5.) Do the occasional list cleaning to remove inactives.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I believe it was TPW who said at the beginning of this thread that he had set his own Email Auto responder program and it became a complete nightmare. Then someone else mentioned it was perhaps because it was a VERY long time ago.

    I'm curious to find out more about the manageability of these self hosted programs nowadays and if they bring major nightmares.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      I believe it was TPW who said at the beginning of this thread that he had set his own Email Auto responder program and it became a complete nightmare. Then someone else mentioned it was perhaps because it was a VERY long time ago.

      I'm curious to find out more about the manageability of these self hosted programs nowadays and if they bring major nightmares.
      If you read all of Coby's posts, especially #24 in this thread, I think you'll get that question answered.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post8356886

      RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
        Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

        If you read all of Coby's posts, especially #24 in this thread, I think you'll get that question answered.
        Thanks Rod. And yes, I actually saved his response and I'm just looking to see what others think.

        Ultimately I'll try having my own auto responder. I'll just want to get a few more opinions before jumping in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    Well Coby, I don't know what to think about this but...

    I just opted in to your list (via your blog) and you ended up on my "Promotions" tab.

    I'm still thinking of getting my own auto responder but I need to researching this further.
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      Well Coby, I don't know what to think about this but...

      I just opted in to your list (via your blog) and you ended up on my "Promotions" tab.

      I'm still thinking of getting my own auto responder but I need to researching this further.
      Yep - like I said for the non believers in this post.

      I said if they didn't believe me to opt-in to my Aweber list (which you did from my blog) and see where it lands... In a few days I'll send an email from my self-host - see where it lands...

      I have been testing - I know where it goes

      Was checking some stats from a campaign I sent from my self-hosts and the majority (28%) of the opens were from Gmail.

      Cheers,
      Coby

      P.S. If I wasn't clear - the list you opted in to on my blog was my Aweber list - not my self-hosted list.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
        Yeah, that's what I thought that it was - an Aweber opt-int list.

        Also it's not so much of being a non believer but more about testing. I have a friend who is an executive at a high end Auto Responder company, they do email marketing for huge ecommerce companies. And she told me that the "Promotions" tab would not affect them, that this is not where their clients email blasts would land. I'm looking to see if this is the case or not.

        So yes, I've opted-in into a few lists to see what kinda response I get.


        Originally Posted by Coby View Post

        Yep - like I said for the non believers in this post.

        I said if they didn't believe me to opt-in to my Aweber list (which you did from my blog) and see where it lands... In a few days I'll send an email from my self-host - see where it lands...

        I have been testing - I know where it goes

        Was checking some stats from a campaign I sent from my self-hosts and the majority (28%) of the opens were from Gmail.

        Cheers,
        Coby

        P.S. If I wasn't clear - the list you opted in to on my blog was my Aweber list - not my self-hosted list.
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  • Profile picture of the author samjaynz
    Yeah I've noticed a bit of a decrease in open rates, but fortunately it has not been too dramatic at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author goindeep
    The gmail update is awesome, I just delete everything in the promo area now I love it, so so easy to delete right now, im on a delete high
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    • Profile picture of the author John Atkins
      Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

      The gmail update is awesome, I just delete everything in the promo area now I love it, so so easy to delete right now, im on a delete high
      Instead of deleting e-mails why not just unsubscribe from the lists you're not interested in? That way you won't receive unwanted e-mails.
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      • Profile picture of the author goindeep
        Originally Posted by John Atkins View Post

        Instead of deleting e-mails why not just unsubscribe from the lists you're not interested in? That way you won't receive unwanted e-mails.
        Because I dont want to, I also mark most of that mail as spam
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

          Because I dont want to, I also mark most of that mail as spam

          LOL

          So you subscribe to mailing lists, just so that you can call them spam?
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          Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

          Because I dont want to, I also mark most of that mail as spam


          I just signed up to both your sites in your signature.

          Don't send me anything though, I'll report it as spam.

          Because I want to.
          Signature

          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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          • Profile picture of the author Marian
            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post



            I just signed up to both your sites in your signature.

            Don't send me anything though, I'll report it as spam.

            Because I want to.
            jokers thanks for the laugh though
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            • Profile picture of the author Mikeyrooney
              Hey Coby,

              Funny you should talk about the exact same thing that we have just setup over the past month or so.

              I mean ... Interspire, SES etc.

              Why do you not rate amazon SES for sending?

              Why did you choose mailjet over amazon?

              Would you not consider using your own IP and building up reputation here?

              Cheers, Mikey
              Signature

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              Work in progress!!!!

              "I will do today what others are not willing to, so tomorrow I can live as others only dream about"

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              • Profile picture of the author Coby
                Originally Posted by Mikeyrooney View Post

                Hey Coby,

                Funny you should talk about the exact same thing that we have just setup over the past month or so.

                I mean ... Interspire, SES etc.

                Why do you not rate amazon SES for sending?

                Why did you choose mailjet over amazon?

                Would you not consider using your own IP and building up reputation here?

                Cheers, Mikey
                Hey Mikey,

                SES doesn't like marketers and they banned my account (when I was only sending to my buyers lists) for "low quality content"...

                I did talk them into "unbanning" it - but eventually just decided it wasn't worth my effort. Also, the lack a lot of features that their competitors have. The only thing SES really has going for them is the Amazon name and really cheap pricing...

                So - I don't think SES fully understands our industry and they don't really plan to change that...

                I chose MailJet over SES because they include reputation monitoring/management along with a dedicated IP.

                So, yes, I definitely like having a dedicated IP to build my own reputation but MJ (and some others) will actually rotate your IP in real-time based on their current reputation. So if your "dedicated IP" has a lower reputation that one of the shared IPs they will send the mail through that IP instead.

                Hope this helps.

                Cheers,
                Coby

                P.S. There are many companies exactly like Mail Jet... Mandrill, SMTP.com, AuthSMTP, SendGrid, etc
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        • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
          Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

          Because I dont want to, I also mark most of that mail as spam

          It's because of people like you that google was inclined to introduce the new tab features.

          You state that you mark most of the mail as spam with a s**t eating grin on your face!
          Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author LovetheProcess
    I have two popular online magazines. Our Local Magazine just went out by email. These people opted in on their own accord and we have always had much higher than average open rates 60%+ with our latest campaign on the 5th we dropped from 60% to less than half 26%. We lost a large number of our normal readers with this change. We haven't sent out our International magazine since the change but now I am nervous!
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Cockrum
      Originally Posted by LovetheProcess View Post

      I have two popular online magazines. ...with our latest campaign on the 5th we dropped from 60% to less than half 26%.
      I'm assuming this is an HTML based email magazine correct?

      I'm curious what your results might be if you sent out a simple text message to your list saying that the latest magazine is ready online along with a link to it. Give them a reason to click the link as well of course, but a couple of short sentences is all...with a link. See if that gets your readership back up (monitor the traffic to your online magazine).

      My theory (I'm looking for evidence of its accuracy) is that "fancy" html messages are more likely to go into the promotions tab of gmail. If I were a gmail engineer setting up the algorithm it would be a no-brainer to include this logic.

      For the record - I've had two record setting promotions (one still rolling along today) and plenty of my reader base is gmail...and I use (and love) aweber. I've felt no sting at all that I can detect in my list of a combined 120,000+ on aweber.

      Of course I tend to send out only text based messages that are short.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    Every cloud has a silver lining and I at the moment cant see what this one is but with all the other google slaps with the serps I have always come out on top.

    Like the recession has made me exceptional money.... dont follow the moaners and groaners move with the times and innovate......
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  • Profile picture of the author fatafat
    Thanks for giving this heads up, I have noticed it yet but will keep an eye out
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Anyone else notice that Gmail also seems to be auto striping certain link shorteners from emails?

    Check out the image below - as you can see the link can be seen from the preview, but when you open the message, all the links are stripped



    Seems to be happening to most of the big markers who's list I'm on that are using the same or similar link trackers.
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    • Profile picture of the author medway
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      Anyone else notice that Gmail also seems to be auto striping certain link shorteners from emails?

      Check out the image below - as you can see the link can be seen from the preview, but when you open the message, all the links are stripped



      Seems to be happening to most of the big markers who's list I'm on that are using the same or similar link trackers.

      Interesting find, will need to test this, thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author sohag19
    Banned
    You can give your customers the following instructions to get back their old Gmail look.


    1.Click the gear icon in the top-right corner of the screen, select Settings, and then click the Inbox tab.
    2.Click the pull-down menu marked "Inbox type" and select "Classic."
    You can also nix the little yellow flags next to the messages that Gmail thinks are "Important" to you; just select the "No Markers" option under "Importance markers."
    3.Click the "Save Changes" button. All done!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    And I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but under the "Promotions" tab - guess who's emails are at the very top?

    Google has positioned themselves to add 2 ads disguised as emails for your Promotions box. Those emails are sneaking their way to the very top of your email box, as getting spam wasn't enough.

    I had it with Google. I hope most people are able to see past them and make a switch.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      And I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but under the "Promotions" tab - guess who's emails are at the very top?

      Google has positioned themselves to add 2 ads disguised as emails for your Promotions box. Those emails are sneaking their way to the very top of your email box, as getting spam wasn't enough.

      I had it with Google. I hope most people are able to see past them and make a switch.

      Promotion email is only bad when Google isn't getting paid to deliver that email to the people who requested it. :rolleyes:
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      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      And I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but under the "Promotions" tab - guess who's emails are at the very top?

      Google has positioned themselves to add 2 ads disguised as emails for your Promotions box. Those emails are sneaking their way to the very top of your email box, as getting spam wasn't enough.

      I had it with Google. I hope most people are able to see past them and make a switch.
      Google has always shown ads above your inbox but just like banners, they lose their effectiveness at some point.

      All they did is what any other intelligent marketer would do, and that is to get creative.

      Lets not ignore the fact that you are using their site free of charge, an easy fix for those who can't stand the heat is to get out of the kitchen, in other words don't use Gmail.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    It's too soon for me to say how this new Gmail tabbing system has affected my open rates but I'll tell you how it's affected me personally....

    Initially I liked it, my inbox wasn't flooded with promo emails each day, but it also meant I wasn't reading the promo emails.

    I knew they were there and I'd look to see what was sent but I didn't read them. I felt happy to keep them in the promo tab to 'read later' but the issue was I wasn't reading them so they just built up.

    Then I got annoyed with having so many 'to read later' and unsubscribed from every email that landed in the promo and social tab.

    Even the lists which I actually got value from and would always read.

    I think something subconscious was planted in my mind due to the fact they were labelled as 'promo' that just made me not want to receive them anymore.

    Strange considering I am a marketer.

    I've taken myself off a load of lists and any emails that come in since and land in the promo tab I remove myself from.

    My email has been cleansed of promos.

    Sure I'm not the only one.
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  • Profile picture of the author goindeep
    humor - definition of humor by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    +

    Satire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    OMG! The Universe has just folded in on itself!!!!


    "You mean you dont have to be serious about everything when sitting on a forum at home in your underpants and drinking goon??!?!?!?"
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  • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
    We marketing folks do so much knee jerking that most of us will probably need arthroscopic surgery by the time we hit 50 .

    Here's an interesting finding from a Return Path report on tabs:

    "Gmail subscribers that didn’t read much marketing email before Tabs’ rollout read even less of it a week later. On the other hand, highly engaged users that historically read high percentages of marketing messages actually read more after Tabs’ rollout."

    Regards,
    jim
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  • Profile picture of the author stallion1
    at least the # of unread messages still reflects the ones in the promotions tab so that is still a cue for the user to look for unread msgs, but some people just ignore it if they have hundreds or even thousands of unread msgs from spam
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  • Profile picture of the author Dutto
    I sent out a few pre-emails to my list saying 'I have a big announcement to make tomorrow if your a Gmail user make sure you move this to your personal tab so you don't miss it.'

    Hard to test if that really worked or not.

    Charles Kirkland did a webinar on on the new Gmail slap' if your on his list
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Mensah
    here's a workaround,

    On your next mailing send this to your subscribers to disable this feature.

    Here's how to disable Gmail tabs.

    Go to the Settings box in the upper 
right hand corner of your inbox and 
choose Settings.
    Click on the "Configure InBox" tab, then 
unselect all the categories except 
Primary and then click the " SAVE' tab below.

That's all.
    Once they do this they will receive all their emails like how Gmail used to work.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
      rather than do that^ i'm thinking about instructing them to make a filter directing my emails to their primary folder (think the option is "Personal"). not sure yet if it's asking them to do too much but it's only a few steps more than having them revert back to their original format. i realize this has already been suggested but successfully getting them to do this would really separate u from the bulk of the marketers that are landing in promotions. i'm concerned like most people but this may be more of an opportunity than anything else. thoughts?
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by Alex Mensah View Post

        here's a workaround,

        On your next mailing send this to your subscribers to disable this feature.

        Here's how to disable Gmail tabs.

        Go to the Settings box in the upper 
right hand corner of your inbox and 
choose Settings.
        Click on the "Configure InBox" tab, then 
unselect all the categories except 
Primary and then click the " SAVE' tab below.

That's all.
        Once they do this they will receive all their emails like how Gmail used to work.
        Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

        rather than do that^ i'm thinking about instructing them to make a filter directing my emails to their primary folder. not sure yet if it's asking them to do too much but it's only a few steps more than having them revert back to their original format. i realize this has already been suggested, but successfully getting them to do this would really separate u from the bulk of the marketers that are landing in promotions. i concerned like most people, but this may be more of an opportunity than anything else. thoughts?
        Wouldn't it just be easier to use an autoresponder that puts the email in the primary tab in the first place? :rolleyes:

        That's a lot of work to expect from a human, who are known to be inherently lazy...

        But even if did work - what about future subscribers?

        Cheers,
        Coby
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        • Profile picture of the author Brian John
          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          Wouldn't it just be easier to use an autoresponder that puts the email in the primary tab in the first place? :rolleyes:
          lol i hear ya, but i see this thing being a cat-and-mouse type of game where G gets wise to what's going on, makes an adjustment and those emails now land in promotions until the ar company makes its changes, and so on. i guess a savvy ar company can stay on top of it for a while but think ultimately G will progressively get the upper hand more often...as they've done so many times in other areas. think u know of an ar company up to the task? please do tell
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          • Profile picture of the author Coby
            Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

            lol i hear ya, but i see this thing being a cat-and-mouse type of game where G gets wise to what's going on, makes an adjustment and those emails now land in promotions until the ar company makes its changes, and so on. i guess a savvy ar company can stay on top of it for a while but think ultimately G will progressively get the upper hand more often...as they've done so many times in other areas. think u know of an ar company up to the task? please do tell
            If you had read my dozen or so other posts in this thread and not skip to the end then you would know my opinion...

            Yes - your OWN a/r

            As marketer's our job is to adapt to changes in our market...

            This ISN'T the first Gmail slap - you may remember about 2 years ago when they started randomly sending Aweber, GetResponse, and others to the spam folder. I know of one company in particular (Imnica) that got hit very hard after that particular Gmail slap...

            So - if Google makes more changes - you make more changes...

            What else can you do? Quit?

            Cheers,
            Coby
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            • Profile picture of the author Brian John
              Originally Posted by Coby View Post

              If you had read my dozen or so other posts in this thread and not skip to the end then you would know my opinion...
              nah, i've been skipping ur posts, too long

              (are u this nice to everyone? :rolleyes

              This ISN'T the first Gmail slap - you may remember about 2 years ago when...
              indeed. hence the reason i wrote:
              but think ultimately G will progressively get the upper hand more often...as they've done so many times...

              What else can you do? Quit?
              not at all, no need to go there, who said anything about quitting? as i mentioned i'm thinking about instructing them to make a filter directing my emails to their primary folder, an obvious option, something u mentioned about a week ago. the idea of self-hosting has been crossing my mind more and more, it's good to hear from someone who's been doing it successfully.

              kinda funny actually, the one thing uv been adamantly for since the beginning of this thread, i asked u about...no wonder u were a little fiery lol. my bad
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              • Profile picture of the author Coby
                Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                nah, i've been skipping ur posts, too long

                ...kinda funny actually, the one thing uv been adamantly for since the beginning of this thread, i asked u about...no wonder u were a little fiery lol. my bad
                Well - when you skip to the end of a thread and ask a question that has been answered about 10 times in the previous two pages people do tend to get a little aggravated.

                But good luck with your "filters" - I won't be doing that myself - I'll just put my email in the primary tab myself. I don't like my customers to have to work harder than they have to.

                I like to build businesses on interstates and busy roads with tons of traffic, I don't like having a small business in a small town behind a huge warehouse that never gets any traffic...

                But to each their own

                Going self-hosted can be a lot of work - too much work for most of us -as I've already pointed out, humans are inherently lazy - we can't help it.

                Cheers,
                Coby

                P.S. My apologies for making my posts "too long" - I have this problem where I like to format my posts so they are easier to read and not just one long block of text. I also have a problem where I tend to actually HELP people with my posts (thus the 1000 plus thanks I've received). So I'm sorry if you think my posts are "too long to read". But this IS a forum meant for reading and helping. If you don't like to read I bet their is something great on NetFlix right now...
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                • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                  Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                  Going self-hosted can be a lot of work - too much work for most of us -as I've already pointed out, humans are inherently lazy - we can't help it.
                  and the fact that humans are inherently lazy means that there are opportunities for those of us who aren't to cash in
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                  • Profile picture of the author Brian John
                    Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                    P.S. My apologies for making my posts "too long" - I have this problem where I like to format my posts so they are easier to read and not just one long block of text. I also have a problem where I tend to actually HELP people with my posts (thus the 1000 plus thanks I've received). So I'm sorry if you think my posts are "too long to read". But this IS a forum meant for reading and helping. If you don't like to read I bet their is something great on NetFlix right now...
                    seeing how ur a little fiery (that's a nice way to put it) in so many of ur posts, that was just a little joke, perhaps a bit of a friendly jab. worked better than i thought, ur too easy kiddo

                    But good luck with your "filters" - I won't be doing that myself - I'll just put my email in the primary tab myself. I don't like my customers to have to work harder than they have to.
                    I like to build businesses on interstates and busy roads with tons of traffic, I don't like having a small business in a small town behind a huge warehouse that never gets any traffic...
                    But to each their own
                    again, said i was just thinking about it. also considering self-hosting, like i said, "good to hear from someone who's having success w it" (was referring to u if it wasn't obvious)

                    Going self-hosted can be a lot of work - too much work for most of us -as I've already pointed out, humans are inherently lazy - we can't help it.
                    perhaps u can't help it, i'm far from lazy. i'm simply considering all available options. uv obviously got a strong belief in self-hosting, and that's fine. i'm just not immediately ready to jump into it because of one recent change by G. for all anyone knows their next change will affect those that self-host in the same way (yes, there have been other changes by G, but in terms of mail deliverability this is prolly one of the most significant and as such is causing significant concern. not for u of course because uv got it all figured out :rolleyes. if in the near future it seems to me to be the best option, i'll do it

                    ur tons of fun to talk w coby, really, but i'll gonna check out of this conversation. ur tone in many of ur posts (both to me and others) makes me think someone needs a vacation. good luck, i hope u find success
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                    • Profile picture of the author MOCrendon
                      Fellow Warriors

                      What a fascinating / interesting post this has been.

                      Here's something for you to think about regarding the whole Tabs issue.

                      I maintain multiple email accounts using multiple free services. Other than emails which land in spam/junk folders, I receive every email sent to each email address and I do this without physically logging in to each account.

                      I achieve this by using a free, open source, cross-platform email, news and chat client: Mozilla Thunderbird which does NOT experience ANY problems with Gmail Tabs. It downloads everything that's not in the spam folder(s) to my computer.

                      It does even more to make my life easier!

                      Thunderbird enables me to set the frequency for automatically checking each email account.

                      A couple of my accounts (the important ones) are set to be checked every 10 minutes, others (less important) at 60 minutes and those of little or no importance are set at every 840 minutes (12 hours). Also, I can download emails from any account, or all accounts, at any time with just one click!

                      If I'm expecting an email to any email account and Thunderbird has not downloaded it, I will login directly to the account and check the spam/junk folder. If it's there, I mark it as "Not Spam", and or create a filter to keep it out of the spam folder.

                      Have any of you given thought for "educating" your subscribers into using something like Thunderbird? By doing so, other than those emails that end up in the spam folder, all your emails will get to their intended destination: your subscriber.

                      And...

                      How about this as a "service" to your subscribers? Tell them in an email, on your blog, on your opt-in page(s), using whatever method you think will get the word out to them:

                      USE the Gmail Tab OPTIONS!

                      It's not rocket science folks! There's a "+" sign to the far right of the Tabs. Click on it and bingo...you can make changes. You can even go back to your old inbox layout!

                      Also, read posts: #110 & #125 and #130 for further comment/advice.

                      That's my 2 cents worth for today.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Coby
                      Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                      perhaps u can't help it, i'm far from lazy.
                      You are THE exception... It's general knowledge the average human is extremely lazy... I never said I was lazy or that YOU were lazy...

                      But I'm sure you'll agree (or maybe not) that most humans (like the ones on your list) are indeed very lazy!

                      ur tons of fun to talk w coby, really, but i'll gonna check out of this conversation. ur tone in many of ur posts (both to me and others) makes me think someone needs a vacation.
                      I spent all summer traveling, like I do every year.

                      Maybe you need a vacation?

                      But that's the issue with reading text replies on a forum - it's hard to know the REAL tone. Anything can be read out of context - just like a text message or email.

                      good luck, i hope u find success
                      Thanks - a little luck never hurts, but I found success many years ago.

                      Thanks Brian John for your valuable posts in this thread. I can tell you spent a lot time reading through all of the posts and coming up with some thought provoking responses based on your experience on this subject. I'm sure many Warriors are much smarter now because of your valuable contributions to this debate. I'm sure that at least 5 people will send you a PM personally thanking you for your contribution in this thread like they have me. :rolleyes:

                      Cheers,
                      Coby

                      P.S. Please spend a few moments formatting your replies. It's very hard to read/decipher the text when it's all one big blob.

                      Just hitting the enter key occasionally and making sure to capitalize the first letter in a sentence can make all the difference to the end reader. Plus your replies might get more respect because it won't look like your let your third grade child type the reply for you.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Brian John
                        Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                        I'm sure that at least 5 people will send you a PM personally thanking you for your contribution in this thread like they have me.
                        earlier said i was done and thought this was done...ur still talking about it? well if u must know 2 people have contacted me, neither of which appreciate ur attitude. ur such a charming person, i have a hard time understanding how this can be :rolleyes:

                        (and no, i haven't responded to either of them...not going to engage in that type of discussion as i think we simply got off on the wrong foot)

                        Plus your replies might get more respect because it won't look like your let your third grade child type the reply for you.
                        ironic

                        we've both wasted space recently in an otherwise valuable thread. i'll concede that i asked a question u had clearly stated ur opinion on as far back as a week ago (which is likely why i forgot reading it), my bad, and from there things went a lot further than they needed to. this type of dialogue really does nothing to enhance our professional reputations, plus it doesn't show much respect to others that have to sift through it. truce?
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                        • Profile picture of the author tpw
                          Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                          this type of dialogue really does nothing to enhance our professional reputations, plus it doesn't show much respect to others that have to sift through it. truce?

                          well said, even if you don't use proper capitalization or easy-on-the-eyes formatting :p
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                        • Profile picture of the author Coby
                          Originally Posted by Brian John View Post

                          we've both wasted space recently in an otherwise valuable thread. i'll concede that i asked a question u had clearly stated ur opinion on as far back as a week ago (which is likely why i forgot reading it), my bad, and from there things went a lot further than they needed to. this type of dialogue really does nothing to enhance our professional reputations, plus it doesn't show much respect to others that have to sift through it. truce?
                          True - I agree.

                          There are only a few things that I'm passionate about enough to get riled up - list building is one.

                          Cheers,
                          Coby

                          P.S. Even though you said you were "done" you were still throwing insults in your last post, but I'll be the bigger person and move along since we got off on the wrong foot.
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  • Profile picture of the author reedfbpg
    It will be interesting to see how they are affected and how they respond.
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  • Profile picture of the author f5mtadas
    Well, there are always thing like seller respect and reputation, I don't think it is kind of damage at all - lower open rate, but the sales rate will be exactly the same. As gmail account user I like it and think many people like it, because those all pushy interrupt us
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  • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
    Take a look at the data gathered by Litmus on this. I think you will be as surprised as they were. Here are some snippets of interest:

    A whopping 66% of Gmail opens occur on mobile devices, with only 19% opened in a web browser. The remaining 15% of Gmail opens occur on desktop email clients.

    The #1 email client for Gmail users is the iPhone’s built-in mail program, with 34% of all Gmail opens.

    Android is #2 with 20% of opens, followed by the Gmail webmail interface at 19%.

    Regards,
    jim
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by JimDucharme View Post

      Take a look at the data gathered by Litmus on this. I think you will be as surprised as they were. Here are some snippets of interest:

      A whopping 66% of Gmail opens occur on mobile devices, with only 19% opened in a web browser. The remaining 15% of Gmail opens occur on desktop email clients.

      The #1 email client for Gmail users is the iPhone's built-in mail program, with 34% of all Gmail opens.

      Android is #2 with 20% of opens, followed by the Gmail webmail interface at 19%.

      Regards,
      jim
      Hey Jim,

      Do you know if the gmail tabs show up on mobile devices? I know I use my droid for my Gmail quite a bit... Although I don't have tabs set up on mine since I use Google's business apps to run the email through my own domain.

      Cheers,
      Coby
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      • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
        Originally Posted by Coby View Post

        Hey Jim,

        Do you know if the gmail tabs show up on mobile devices? I know I use my droid for my Gmail quite a bit... Although I don't have tabs set up on mine since I use Google's business apps to run the email through my own domain.

        Cheers,
        Coby
        Hi Coby,

        I should have mentioned that! Apparently, you will see the tabs if you use the Gmail app for iOS or Android. The default clients I use on both my iPhone and Android do not show the tabs. That's why this information is important I think.

        Regards,
        jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Diesell
    Hey John, yeh man... i'm experiencing the same, the open rate is dropped down for sure. Don't you hate it, Google AGAIN! Pinquin Panda Piggy Gmail....getting tired of Google, it's time for a new sex machine ....that's a typo :p....searche machine
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  • Profile picture of the author martbost
    Okay, small silver lining to be had here....

    I have been taking emails that actually made it to my inbox and not in the promotional tab. As a result, I have been able to compile a nice collection of Swipe files that I wanted to test. So far, I am 6/6 on my testing and all have made it to my inbox when sent from Interspire hosted on one of my VPS. I also use Sendgrid as a cloud SMTP provider and the combination works well. 2/3 of the AWeber tests I did resulted in the emails getting put in the promotional tab.

    Just my observation.
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  • Profile picture of the author andaleem
    How profitable do you think email marketing is? I have a client that is opposed to it and I'm trying to talk them into it. I've used it in the past, where I designed the email, and it worked great. What is some advice you would give an email marketer?

    theartistdesigner.com
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    I just did a test and signed up to an affiliate list for an Ex Back CB product.

    The AWeber verification link ended up in my spam folder. Not in the Promo Tab, deep in the spam folder like at Yahoo and Hotmail.

    You read that correct, the AWeber email with the verification link.

    That definitely sucks big time.

    G.
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  • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
    This may have come at a very good time for me as I am just getting into list building.

    From my own experience I'm getting emails from self hosted email senders in my Primary and via aweber etc in my Promotions tab.

    Just signed up for MailJet free 200 a day but will probably upgrade to my own server with them for $49 per month.

    Now looking for the best out of Arp Reach, Sticky Worm etc. Any recommendations please?
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  • Profile picture of the author pinkgorilla
    I've noticed that a lot of marketers have been hit bad by the update. I don't see why they did it to be honest, it's quite frustrating. I'm subscribed to a number of blogs and sites and a lot of emails coming through are going to the promotions tab. A lot of people won't bother to open the promotions tab, discarding it as spam.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mikeyrooney
      Coby,

      When you send emails through mailjet, does it have the (via mailjet) thing on the top of the email. I noticed when sending via SES we get the (via amazonses) at the top of the message inside the gmail accounts we send to.

      Also, I ran a test broadcasting to the same seed email addresses with the exact same message.

      Test 1: Sent from mailchimp - Arrived in Primary TAB
      (Showed mailed by and signed by as the exact same thing)

      Test 2: Sent from interspire via SES - Arrived in Promotions TAB
      (Showed mailed by amazonses.com and signed by our own domain)

      Do you think the reason it ended up in promotions could have anything to do with the "mailed by" and "signed by" are different in TEST 2?

      If so, how would you suggest resolving this?

      Thanks in Advance, I appreciate your thoughts Coby!
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      • Profile picture of the author Coby
        Originally Posted by Mikeyrooney View Post

        Coby,

        When you send emails through mailjet, does it have the (via mailjet) thing on the top of the email. I noticed when sending via SES we get the (via amazonses) at the top of the message inside the gmail accounts we send to.

        Also, I ran a test broadcasting to the same seed email addresses with the exact same message.

        Test 1: Sent from mailchimp - Arrived in Primary TAB
        (Showed mailed by and signed by as the exact same thing)

        Test 2: Sent from interspire via SES - Arrived in Promotions TAB
        (Showed mailed by amazonses.com and signed by our own domain)

        Do you think the reason it ended up in promotions could have anything to do with the "mailed by" and "signed by" are different in TEST 2?

        If so, how would you suggest resolving this?

        Thanks in Advance, I appreciate your thoughts Coby!
        Do you have SPF and DKIM set up on your domain?

        If you can get SPF and DKIM set up it will remove the "via AmasonSES" as the email will be signed by your domain.

        The provider of the SMTP service shouldn't matter as long as SPF and DKIM are set up.

        This might help: Setting up SPF and DKIM records - cPanel Forums

        Cheers,
        Coby
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        • Profile picture of the author Mikeyrooney
          Originally Posted by Coby View Post

          Do you have SPF and DKIM set up on your domain?
          Coby
          Thank you! Yes we do have these setup on the domain.

          We also have DMARC setup too.

          Between you answering, I removed the SES details from the interspire account and decided to try sending off our own mail server.

          I sent 2 identical broadcast messages to a few seed email accounts. First broadcast was sent from MAILCHIMP and this arrived in the gmail primary inbox and the second broadcast was sent from INTERSPIRE through our mail server and it landed in gmail promtions tab. (The exact same message)

          The strange thing was, I looked at the "Show orginal" code on both messages and the one sent from our mail server passed everything including the DMARC while the Mailchimp passed all tests except the DMARC.

          So, I am now left puzzled.

          Both land in inboxes with yahoo, aol, hotmail, gmail etc but one goes to primary and one goes to promotions... (again, they are exactly the same broadcast messages)

          I ran this test multiple times and the exact same thing happened.

          Same sender name
          Same sender email address

          Strange don't you think?
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          • Profile picture of the author Coby
            Originally Posted by Mikeyrooney View Post

            Thank you! Yes we do have these setup on the domain.

            We also have DMARC setup too.

            Between you answering, I removed the SES details from the interspire account and decided to try sending off our own mail server.

            I sent 2 identical broadcast messages to a few seed email accounts. First broadcast was sent from MAILCHIMP and this arrived in the gmail primary inbox and the second broadcast was sent from INTERSPIRE through our mail server and it landed in gmail promtions tab. (The exact same message)

            The strange thing was, I looked at the "Show orginal" code on both messages and the one sent from our mail server passed everything including the DMARC while the Mailchimp passed all tests except the DMARC.

            So, I am now left puzzled.

            Both land in inboxes with yahoo, aol, hotmail, gmail etc but one goes to primary and one goes to promotions... (again, they are exactly the same broadcast messages)

            I ran this test multiple times and the exact same thing happened.

            Same sender name
            Same sender email address

            Strange don't you think?
            Very odd indeed - just one thing I can think of off the top of my head...

            Does your Interspire include a unsubscribe header?

            You can tell if this is the case by clicking to see the "signed by, sent by, etc"...

            If there is an unsubscribe header it will also have a link in this same area that says "unsubscribe from sender"

            Now - I'm not talking about the actual email content - but the header that contains all the sender info.

            Check that and let me know.

            Cheers,
            Coby
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    I don't use my gmail account anymore and I don't think there is a problem for my sends to get my email from my domain email.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Reed
    A good way to bump your open rates is to send a text message as a follow up to let the recipients know you just sent them something of value.

    After all, who doesn't open their text messages?
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    I receve some of the emails of marketers from aweber in my spam, this is a problem. It's not gmail the problem?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    It looks like self-hosting is the way to go right now from Coby's experience (thanks for the input!), but it seems that at the root of it all Google dislikes small time marketers and I'm not so sure self-hosting will be a permanent fix.

    Then again, I don't know much about self-hosting and how easy it would be for Google to filter those messages.

    Either way, I'm going to focus more on building up my following with social media and skype! Sure you don't own your following, like you do your email list, but it doesn't matter much if your message is not being read!
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    • Profile picture of the author fred67
      You say self-hosting is the way to go but I use Hostgator and have several associated E-mail accounts with my domains. Great for receiving mail, but many of the mail I've sent out simply hasn't been delivered :-(

      Now I know everyone and their cousin slams AOL mail, but my main E-mail account is a 15 year old account and I hardly ever get problems regarding delivery or receipt :-)

      Just a thought folks.
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  • Profile picture of the author fred67
    I've not read the rest of the replies here but I've personally noticed a serious drop in the E-mails being received in my Gmail accounts. If it's just the Spam being filtered out then that's not a problem, but I'm afraid that genuine E-mails & Newsletters I've signed up to are not getting through. This makes you wonder if Gmail has become a handicap rather than a benefit :-(
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  • Profile picture of the author gurusconcept
    Is best to use a self hosted auto responder system with dedicated ip address it will help deliver your email straight to the primary inbox.
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  • Profile picture of the author SuperDJ
    My e-mails are still getting opened. Hmm.. though before people subscribe to me now, I educate them on how to move me to their primary tab. Open rates are still like they were before :p made a note to G-mail users on how they can and SHOULD move me to their primary tab.

    Thanks Office Angels! :p

    EDIT: Tell them to DRAG your e-mail into the primary tab, and click 'yes' when google's helper appears at the top. Done.
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    • Profile picture of the author Elvis Michael
      Originally Posted by SuperDJ View Post

      My e-mails are still getting opened. Hmm.. though before people subscribe to me now, I educate them on how to move me to their primary tab. Open rates are still like they were before :p made a note to G-mail users on how they can and SHOULD move me to their primary tab.

      Thanks Office Angels! :p

      EDIT: Tell them to DRAG your e-mail into the primary tab, and click 'yes' when google's helper appears at the top. Done.
      Same here. I think educating them has worked fairly well. Also, the key is to keep those instructions as short/succinct as possible to avoid overwhelming them.

      Most of my newsletters are opened by over 60% of users (although my list is only 190 subscribers as of this writing, so that's not exactly saying much.) I'd be thrilled if I can still get those open rates once it grows to 500+ subs.
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  • Profile picture of the author apeee
    That is a reason why my recent email campaigns aren't converting well. I hate the new gmail update. Sometimes, I myself find my important emails under the "promotion or updates" tab.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxjpip
    I guess people will open for quality now...time to work on the quality
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    i wish it would go back to the way it was... i don't like the new compose nor the tabs
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  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    The promotional emails are indeed going into the Primary tab now, BUT this is only if the Updates tab is not turned on. If the Updates tab is turned on, all the promotional emails which were previously supposed to go into the Promotions tab are going into the Updates tab.

    However, the Updates tab is not turned on by default if I'm not wrong when the tab changes were first introduced. There are some interesting dynamics here. A good portion of people using Gmail will not turn on the Updates tab, so these promotional emails now go into the Primary tab. No problem there, it is better for everyone and almost just like before. The trick becomes staying in the Primary tab; if people just do a mass movement of promotional emails from Primary to Promotions, it won't help much as well.

    People who have the Updates tab turned on will be receiving these promotional emails in this Updates tab. Try turning on the Updates tab and immediately all these emails get moved there and what's left are just conversations and real personal emails mostly in the Primary tab. People will wonder what's going on and may do a mass movement of emails in the Updates tab back into the Promotions tab.

    Emails from self-hosted solutions are also mostly going into the Updates tab IF the tab is turned on. I know because I have been testing a few self-hosted solutions and it was better to go into the quiet Updates tab (or Primary if Updates is turned off) then into the noisy Promotions tab. With the recent upheaval again, self-hosted and autoresponder services are performing the same in terms of which tab they land in.

    It will be interesting to see if promotional emails continue landing in the Primary or Updates tab or if they mostly go back into the Promotions tab in the next few weeks and months.

    Either way, it's time to adapt or die. The email industry and everything else online are introducing changes faster and faster.

    Fabian
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    • Profile picture of the author DATruk
      >Either way, it's time to adapt or die. The email industry and everything else online are introducing changes faster and faster.

      Fabian, you meant sink or swim? Lol thanks for the info. Sounds like you have several mailers on the go.

      This is definitely a wait and see issue. As others mentioned, it sure would be nice if all recipients looked forward to my mail.

      I "collect" marketing emails, and less than half ask to be white listed from the start. This is a fairly good indicator of expected post quality and sender experience.
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      Not after warrior money...yet.

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  • Profile picture of the author djneill
    In my email sig I say white list this address so you don't miss .... blah blah blah and a link for white listing instruction

    If they open your emails fairly regularly then they will go to their primary box instead promotions.
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  • Profile picture of the author tyronne78
    The funny thing is a lot of marketers are sending out emails to their list asking their subscribers to put their emails in the "primary tab". The question is are they even seeing these emails if they're already going to their "promotions tab".
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    • Profile picture of the author JamesBorg
      Originally Posted by tyronne78 View Post

      The funny thing is a lot of marketers are sending out emails to their list asking their subscribers to put their emails in the "primary tab". The question is are they even seeing these emails if they're already going to their "promotions tab".
      Well, you know, if you have hot content, it burns the 'Promotions' tab and magically falls into the 'Primary' tab.
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    • Profile picture of the author writeaway
      Originally Posted by tyronne78 View Post

      The funny thing is a lot of marketers are sending out emails to their list asking their subscribers to put their emails in the "primary tab". The question is are they even seeing these emails if they're already going to their "promotions tab".
      Kinda late in the game. They should show those instructions right after they optin.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlexGeorge
    A lot of emails that I receive come under the promotions tab, and I can see why a lot of people would ignore them. A number of my subscribers have gmail, and there has been a drop in the number of emails opened.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stefan Shields
    I make sure to read every email I get but I can understand that the majority of people would immediately discard anything in the promotions tab.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I've noticed a very minor decrease in open rates (about 5%). It hasn't seemed to hurt my sales at all. However, about 3 days ago the new Gmail system seemed to go crazy and has not been the same since. I'm now getting emails to my primary tab that are supposed to be in the promo tab, and emails that should be in the social tab ending up in the promo tab, etc.

    Basically there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. As far as people ignoring emails that end up in their promo folder, I'm not sure that's the case. I always look at the emails in my promo folder, and the marketers that I follow are moved to the primary tab. Although it doesn't seem to matter because all of the work I did moving emails around so they would end up in the right tab was wasted because as I said about 3 days ago Gmail just started putting them wherever it wanted anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
      More emails are now going back into the Promotions tab on their own (without "teaching" Gmail by dragging them there), although it is still a small percentage of overall "real promotional emails", which are now mainly in the Primary tab. What I have noticed from the emails that are now going back into Promotions is they have details like the subscriber's IP address in particular in the email (as part of a subscription reminder), and perhaps words like "subscriber", "subscribed", "unsubscribed" used multiple times in the email and/or including the word "FREE" multiple times (3-5 times or more) is perhaps also what's causing some emails to land in Promotions. Using these words once or twice seems fine. These emails are using the same autoresponder services as many that are now landing in the Primary tab, so services used is not the issue with regards to this. There are probably other reasons for landing in the Promotions tab that are worth looking into.

      However, with the majority of emails now landing in Primary, it is unclear if landing in Promotions will decrease or actually increase response. The gut feeling is that landing in Primary is still better as that's where most people (those who are using Gmail tabs) will keep their browser on when they are they are using their email inbox or doing something else (using other tabs, doing something else on their desktop, or being away from the computer entirely and then jumping straight back in to email).

      Yahoo Mail just did a small upgrade in the past few days, but nothing earth shattering that affects email marketing (yet). I suspect there will be more changes in future. Gmail introduced this Tabs feature because email volume is increasing and people are subscribed to more and more stuff (for example, many who started using email to subscribe to stuff 5-10 years ago have now built up a huge "list" of subscriptions and their email is filled up with lots of newsletters which they mostly skim over. Of course, some of us do a mass unsubscribe of newsletters but many have a noisy inbox as well. It seems many of us either do a mass unsubscribe or just stay subscribed to the majority of newsletters we have signed up for in the past so as not to "miss anything").

      The more pertinent request to subscribers now may be to ask them to keep the emails in the Primary folder rather than asking them to send them there. Because it is very easy for subscribers to just drag the emails back into the Promotion folder and it's back to square one. Not forgetting also that the emails that are going into Primary are actually supposed to be in Updates (if that tab is turned on).

      All in all, it pays to pay attention to these small details and act on them when it's obvious there are no benefits for the email marketer, with more tabs and filters to pass through.

      Fabian
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    I have mine set to the old system , just go to settings/inbox and only tick the primary box and then scroll to the bottom and save and you have the old gmail back
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