Aweber Confirm Rate Up 50%, Small Change

67 replies
I realized a lot of our Aweber leads (low 30% to high of 60%) weren't confirming and therefore we were losing a lot of money. I did all the typical things to increase the confirm rate, i.e. making it so obvious a retarded parrot knew they had to click a confirm link, but the results weren't satisfactory on larger lists.

I applied the simple practice of sending a follow-up email to leads that didn't confirm in the first 5-10 minutes -- from our email account (gmail), not aweber.

The email mentioned they opted in and requested something, but didn't confirm. I went on to say the reason was likely due to the confirmation message being in the junk box.

So far we've seen a solid 50% recovery rate. We've written a script to automate this using Aweber's PHP API to get the list of unconfirmed subscribers, and we then send the emails from our web server using this list. It appears all of our web server messages arrive in the inbox, like the gmail ones, instead of going to junk like a lot of Aweber's emails.

Very simple and very effective -- it feels like I ran into amazing results by complete accident. I hope someone puts this to use for their lists.

Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

I just got off the phone with AWeber and they said it IS ALLOWED to send a reminder email, as long as it DOESN'T INVOLVE AWEBERS SERVERS, i.e. our own gmail account. They went on to say the information this link only applies to their service/servers.

Case closed.
You must be vigilant in not allowing the misinformation under the first post to penetrate your mind. AWeber gave the OK and you get a lot more confirms.
#accident #aweber #freak
  • Did you know that subscribers have the option to NOT confirm (change their mind) by ignoring the message? Therefore any unrequested follow up messages could be considered spam. Thought you might want to know. Read this...

    https://help.aweber.com/entries/2166...mation-message


    + Thought I'd get some answers as well.





    It seems like a very grey area to be operating in, and recommending others to do it, possibly leading them to receiving complaints, and or worse, is just wrong.
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    Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
    "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
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  • Profile picture of the author sanhal
    Arnold is right. That is technically spam as they have not given you permission to email them.

    I've changed my list to single optins because I was losing so many who did not confirm.

    Before anyone chimes in here about double optins I know all the arguements for double optins but you can lose a lot of would be subscribers simply because they have missed the confirm email or it has gone into a junk folder.

    That has happened to me on quite a few occasions.

    Sandy
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinChapman
    I'm still not 100% sure how I feel on double opt ins.

    I currently use them but when you see so many people not confirming it is tempting to take the double opt in off but then I think if they can't be bothered to confirm will they even open my emails?
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    You really shouldn't be doing this. Some people may not be confirming for a reason.

    If Aweber knew you were doing this they would also probably close your account.

    If you want better confirm rates then stop using double optin and start using single optin.

    There's really no point for double optin anymore. It has no advantages.

    Those who say you get better quality leads with double optin are wrong. The subscriber doesn't know if you are using single optin or double optin when they signup so you are still getting exactly the same email addresses -- only with single optin people don't have to jump through hoops to get your emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author retsced
    All it takes is for a couple of people to report you to Aweber and you're account could be closed. As 'Will, so rightly stated above, there's absolutely no reason to use conformed opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
      But none of this resolves the fact that many of the emails from Aweber go straight into the recipient's spam folder. So whether they be double opt-in or single opt-in they simply don't get seen.

      I'm at the point of giving up on a niche which, for whatever reson seems to attract the interest of people with minimal computer skills. Even looking for mail in their spam folder seems to be beyond their capabilities. I remember one person in particular who signed up, then after a few hours began emailing me asking where his free gift was. This continued for several days with him getting more and more aggressive. I was replying to each of his contacts but obviously everything was going into his spam folder.

      Only that first email was initiated by Aweber; all the follow-ups were frome one of my business domains and eventually from one of my personal accounts.
      On the screen following sign-up I explain in great detail exactly how to check their spam folders, but clearly very few of them ever bother to read it.

      <<Sigh>>
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      • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
        Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

        But none of this resolves the fact that many of the emails from Aweber go straight into the recipient's spam folder. So whether they be double opt-in or single opt-in they simply don't get seen.
        Agreed. This does allow you to recover a very significant percentage of those otherwise lost subscribers, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author nmcc
    How about offering something in return for the confirm - so that they are expecting to have to confirm before they get their free prize - and are more motivated to responding to the email?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

    I applied the simple practice of sending a follow-up email to leads that didn't confirm in the first 5-10 minutes -- from our email account (gmail), not aweber.
    If Aweber finds out you've done that (and they could), I think you'll be looking for a new autoresponder company. Why not just switch to single opt-in?

    Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

    I hope someone puts this to use for their lists.
    If I were a malicious, competitive marketer, I'd say "I hope all my competitors do!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I don't understand the arguments that Aweber could close the account. For
    sending a reminder that they need to confirm their optin? They gave permission
    to email them when they opted in. If this were true then single optin by
    definition would be a 'no-no', since you a emailing them after they opted
    in.

    -Ray Edwards
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    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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    • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I don't understand the arguments that Aweber could close the account. For sending a reminder that they need to confirm their optin? They gave permission to email them when they opted in. If this were true then single optin by
      definition would be a 'no-no', since you a emailing them after they opted
      in.-Ray Edwards
      They have some info on their site here:

      https://help.aweber.com/entries/2166...mation-message
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      Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
      "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
      "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

      "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

        They have some info on their site here:

        https://help.aweber.com/entries/2166...mation-message
        Can I Resend the Confirmation Message?


        The confirmation message is sent only once per request by your subscribers.

        Confirmed Opt-in works by giving subscribers the opportunity to confirm that they want to receive messages from you. They have the option to not confirm by ignoring the message. Any further unrequested messages sent to unconfirmed subscribers, including another copy of the confirmation message, would be considered spam by ISPs.
        Note that you cannot resend the confirmation from their account but the OP
        was sending this from his own Gmail account. I'm not so sure what control
        Aweber will have over that. It's now between Gmail and the ISP he is
        sending the message to.

        -Ray Edwards
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        • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          I'm not so sure what control Aweber will have over that. It's now between Gmail and the ISP he is sending the message to.
          -Ray Edwards
          This is true, however, Aweber T.O.S. seems to mention this:

          "Spamming, or the sending of unsolicited email, using an email address, URL that is maintained on an AWeber Systems machine, or directing traffic to a webpage that contains any reference to AWeber Systems is STRICTLY prohibited. AWeber Systems will be the sole arbiter as to what constitutes a violation of this provision. This action WILL RESULT in immediate termination of your account without refund".

          So I guess this can be left up to interpretation.
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          Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
          "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
          "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

          "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
          "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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          • Profile picture of the author Raydal
            Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

            This is true, however, Aweber T.O.S. seems to mention this:

            "Spamming, or the sending of unsolicited email, using an email address, URL that is maintained on an AWeber Systems machine, or directing traffic to a webpage that contains any reference to AWeber Systems is STRICTLY prohibited. AWeber Systems will be the sole arbiter as to what constitutes a violation of this provision. This action WILL RESULT in immediate termination of your account without refund".

            So I guess this can be left up to interpretation.
            So I would send an email that say: "Don't forget to confirm your
            optin to [MY Newsletter]. Look in the junk folder just in
            case ...."

            No mention of aweber at all. Just my newsletter.

            -Ray Edwards
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            The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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            • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

              So I would send an email that say: "Don't forget to confirm your optin to [MY Newsletter]. Look in the junk folder just in
              case ...." No mention of aweber at all. Just my newsletter. -Ray Edwards
              I'm just wondering what would happen if:

              1. Someone opted in once, and then they did receive the confirmation message, but chose to ignore it for the purpose of changing their mind.

              2. Then you write them, and remind them of your newsletter.

              3. Then they write Aweber and complain that they did opt in via the Aweber system, but did not confirm, but you then emailed them anyways.

              To me it's just asking for trouble.
              Signature
              Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
              "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
              "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

              "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
              "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          Note that you cannot resend the confirmation from their account but the OP was sending this from his own Gmail account. I'm not so sure what control Aweber will have over that.
          I don't think anyone's suggesting they'll have control over it, Ray: I think the suggestion is that (to put it mildly) they won't like someone emailing in this way, from their own email account, people whose email addresses have been collected using Aweber facilities, and perhaps especially not when the problem is so readily avoidable just by using single opt-in? I wouldn't like that at all, in their position. Would you, honestly?
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          • Profile picture of the author Raydal
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            I don't think anyone's suggesting they'll have control over it, Ray: I think the suggestion is that (to put it mildly) they won't like someone emailing in this way, from their own email account, people whose email addresses have been collected using Aweber facilities, and perhaps especially not when the problem is so readily avoidable just by using single opt-in? I wouldn't like that at all, in their position. Would you, honestly?
            If a subscriber opted in at my site, I think they are giving me the option
            to email them, whether from aweber or any other account. The place
            I email them from shouldn't have anything to do with it. If you're
            right then a marketer will never be able to transfer their list to
            another service without first asking them to optin again.

            -Ray Edwards
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

              If you're right then a marketer will never be able to transfer their list to another service without first asking them to optin again.
              I think the word "never" may be a slight exaggeration, but in reality that is actually pretty difficult to do, now you mention it, and perhaps that does rather illustrate my point. It's very rare indeed for Aweber themselves to allow it, for example!
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              • Profile picture of the author Raydal
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                I think the word "never" may be a slight exaggeration, but in reality that is actually pretty difficult to do, now you mention it, and perhaps that does rather illustrate my point. It's very rare indeed for Aweber themselves to allow it, for example!
                It's an exaggeration to make a point. Sometimes you need just one exception
                to void a "rule".

                -Ray Edwards
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                The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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            • Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

              If a subscriber opted in at my site, I think they are giving me the option to email them, whether from aweber or any other account.
              Any marketing systems that involve many moving parts such as an autoresponder, a gmail account, 1 or more ISP's, an email recipient, etc, can result in anyone losing any or all of the related accounts, depending on which entity feels at the time that their T.O.S. or rights are being abused. In the case of the OP, it could be either gmail, aweber, their ISP, or the email recipient taking action. None of those actions will depend on what "we" might think is right or wrong.
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              Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
              "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
              "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

              "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
              "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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              • Profile picture of the author Raydal
                Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

                Any marketing systems that involve many moving parts such as an autoresponder, a gmail account, 1 or more ISP's, an email recipient, etc, can result in anyone losing any or all of the related accounts, depending on which entity feels at the time that their T.O.S. or rights are being abused. In the case of the OP, it could be either gmail, aweber, their ISP, or the email recipient taking action. None of those actions will depend on what "we" might think is right or wrong.
                Good point. But my contention is that I can hardly think of any subscriber
                who actually checks what/whose optin forms you are using before they
                optin to your list. So if you were using Getresponse they would refuse
                but aweber they would optin. That will be a pretty sophisticated
                subscriber.

                And the whole idea behind an autoresponder service is to make the
                ESP transparent so the email seems to be coming from your personal
                email address.

                -Ray Edwards
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                The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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                • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
                  Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

                  Note that you cannot resend the confirmation from their account but the OP
                  was sending this from his own Gmail account. I'm not so sure what control
                  Aweber will have over that. It's now between Gmail and the ISP he is
                  sending the message to.

                  -Ray Edwards
                  My point exactly. Behind all of the marketing spiel, AWeber simply wants to make sure THEIR SERVERS don't get flagged as spam. If your individual email account un-related to AWeber gets flagged, you take all of the liability and AWeber takes 0%. Good deal for them, and good deal for you because your confirms rocket up.

                  Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

                  I'm just wondering what would happen if:

                  1. Someone opted in once, and then they did receive the confirmation message, but chose to ignore it for the purpose of changing their mind.

                  2. Then you write them, and remind them of your newsletter.

                  3. Then they write Aweber and complain that they did opt in via the Aweber system, but did not confirm, but you then emailed them anyways.

                  To me it's just asking for trouble.
                  The number of people that opt in for something and change their mind does not constitute a majority of unconfirmed subscribers. Common sense here, nothing else.

                  I'll put this all to rest by contacting AWeber and getting their comments on this, which I'll later post here. I'll also put an automatic lead backup system in place to cover our end if the account is closed unexpectedly.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    Ya going single-optin leads to much higher conversions always. You can disable that in the third step of setting up your list, set your confirmation page url, and then create your first follow-up message (at least 1 message) because if you don't plug in 1 follow up to go out immediately aweber will automatically send the confirmation message
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Originally Posted by thedanbrown View Post

      Ya going single-optin leads to much higher conversions always.
      Not always. Not even close.

      It depends upon your traffic source, and the process and
      offer you send them through as to whether single opt-in or
      confirmed opt-in wins on conversions.

      There's no one-size-fits-all answer for this one.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    Aweber needs to be held accountable for their emails NOT reaching the in-box in the first place, besides all the single and double opt-in conversation here.

    If their emails are not reaching the inbox, they are not doing their job that you are paying them a pretty penny to do for you. And if more people would approach and confront them about this situation, then maybe they would take it more seriously.

    After all, their job is to get your communication to the person's inbox, not the spam box.

    As for double and single opt-ins, single is the easiest.
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  • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
    I just got off the phone with AWeber and they said it IS ALLOWED to send a reminder email, as long as it DOESN'T INVOLVE AWEBERS SERVERS, i.e. our own gmail account. They went on to say the information this link only applies to their service/servers.

    Case closed.
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    • Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

      Case closed.
      Not really. Try sending "me" such an email after I didn't confirm. You are not taking into consideration the other moving parts that may complain. However, happy spamming.
      Signature
      Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
      "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
      "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

      "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
      "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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      • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
        Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

        Not really. Try sending "me" such an email after I didn't confirm. You are not taking into consideration the other moving parts that may complain. However, happy spamming.
        I know you can't stand the fact that your assertion is wrong, and now you're trying to make it about someone like "you" (even less likely than your first guess). Welcome to my Ignore List.

        Guys, it's safe with AWeber; enjoy the additional subscribers.
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        • Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

          I know you can't stand the fact that your assertion is wrong, and now you're trying to make it about someone like "you" (even less likely than your first guess). Welcome to my Ignore list.
          I really have no position on the matter. It's not about me being right or wrong. You claim that aweber gave you the assurance that aweber is ok with it if you follow up with someone who did not confirm? I highly doubt that very much, and I also trust that they won't be backing you up when an isp considers your follow ups to be spam. Even awebers link specifically mentions that. I merely responded to you encouraging others to follow your path and leading them into the possibility of getting their accounts banned.
          Signature
          Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
          "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley)
          "Keep Up The Good Work!" Tony Lindsay - Lead Vocalist, Carlos Santana.

          "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
          "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.

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  • Profile picture of the author tutis
    vbresults that is cool what you did, can totally see your point.

    I used to do double optin, then facing the same 50% not confirming optin rate, I decided to go back to single optin (Aweber). HOWEVER, then I got the problem that Aweber despite of my single optin (and of course I had followup messages) treated many as DOUBLE OPTIN (!), not cool, so I still ran into the same issue. It was totally random, couldn´t find out why some did and others wouldn´t.
    That was a while ago (6mth-1yr), I remember I called Aweber, but I don´t recall their exact answer, but they basically justified it, the b....., couldn´t do anything about it.
    Then I consulted with some friends and they got over me, again, with all the usual arguments about double optin... So, I switched back to double optin. I have days with 80% confirmation and with same traffic, landing pages, I get sometimes 45-50%, do not get it (same rate of gmail/hotmail accounts, etc.).
    Nobody got this issue with single optin behaving as double optin? (of course I had followup messages created).

    And I also download/backup my entire lists (unconfirmed too).
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    • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
      Originally Posted by tutis View Post

      vbresults that is cool what you did, can totally see your point.

      I used to do double optin, then facing the same 50% not confirming optin rate, I decided to go back to single optin (Aweber). HOWEVER, then I got the problem that Aweber despite of my single optin (and of course I had followup messages) treated many as DOUBLE OPTIN (!), not cool, so I still ran into the same issue. It was totally random, couldn´t find out why some did and others wouldn´t.
      That was a while ago (6mth-1yr), I remember I called Aweber, but I don´t recall their exact answer, but they basically justified it, the b....., couldn´t do anything about it.
      Then I consulted with some friends and they got over me, again, with all the usual arguments about double optin... So, I switched back to double optin. I have days with 80% confirmation and with same traffic, landing pages, I get sometimes 45-50%, do not get it (same rate of gmail/hotmail accounts, etc.).
      Nobody got this issue with single optin behaving as double optin? (of course I had followup messages created).

      And I also download/backup my entire lists (unconfirmed too).
      What you're saying totally makes sense. I don't get how people complain about delivery rates in single vs double opt-in on the same autoresponder service -- it's the same mail server, same IP, same domain. There is no (read: 0.0000000000%) difference in deliverability at all between single and double opt-ins -- the question has always been which one results in you having more leads, sales, etc.

      EDIT: My statement on single vs double deliverability was incorrect.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

        I don't get how people complain about delivery rates in single vs double opt-in on the same autoresponder service -- it's the same mail server
        Not necessarily - it may be sent from a different mail server.
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        • Profile picture of the author Coby
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Not necessarily - it may be sent from a different mail server.
          This is true. As Shaun stated above me.

          I also know that the confirmation emails are sent from different servers than "regular"email. A customer service rep told me this once on a live chat when I was asking about some confirmation emails that were seemingly "not being sent"...

          As for double optin vs single optin...

          I've used both - both have their merits at different times/niches/traffic, etc.

          However, the day I decided to go to mostly single optin was the day a DOUBLE OPTIN subscriber emailed me accusing me of being a 'spammer'. Even after I sent her screenshots of where she opt-in and where she confirmed - she still felt I had "hacked" her email some how. lol - I've been using single optin almost exclusively since.

          Cheers,
          Coby

          P.S. Although with my recent testing of self-hosted I have leaned more towards double optin on those simply because I don't mind losing a few subscribers. Since I pay "per email" sent I only want those that confirm - at least for now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

        I don't get how people complain about delivery rates in single vs double opt-in on the same autoresponder service -- it's the same mail server, same IP
        No it's not.

        AWeber use completely different SMTP servers for sending
        out e-mails for single opt-in and confirmed opt-in lists.

        Single opt-in servers begin with the prefix smtp-soi and
        confirmed opt-in servers smtp-coi for AWeber. There are
        many of each of them too and they have different IP
        addresses.

        In general, the single opt-in servers for AWeber have lower
        deliverability rates than the confirmed opt-in servers for
        AWeber.

        Why?

        Because their single opt-in servers have more bad e-mail
        addresses on them, e.g. mis-spellings, fake e-mails, and
        even malicious e-mails. These all hurt the reputation and
        deliverability of their single opt-in servers.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

        Shaun
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        • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
          Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

          No it's not.

          AWeber use completely different SMTP servers for sending
          out e-mails for single opt-in and confirmed opt-in lists.

          Single opt-in servers begin with the prefix smtp-soi and
          confirmed opt-in servers smtp-coi for AWeber. They have
          different IP addresses too.

          In general, the single opt-in servers for AWeber have lower
          deliverability rates than the confirmed opt-in servers for
          AWeber.

          Why?

          Because their single opt-in servers have more bad e-mail
          addresses on them, e.g. mis-spellings, fake e-mails, and
          even malicious e-mails. These all hurt the reputation and
          deliverability of their single opt-in servers.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
          Thank you for the clarification.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          Originally Posted by Steve Wells View Post

          Afterall, their job is to get your communication to the person's inbox, not the spam box.
          The issue is not Aweber but the filters one might have on their inbox, or the usage of additional services just to kick the spam away. I use postini myself, and it filters a LOT of things, and occasionally someones confirm link.
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          • Profile picture of the author goldliger
            Double opt in is a scam! ..Only kidding, but I *never* used or liked double opt in. It never made any sense why I'd want to spend my time and money building a list only to get half of the subscribers. It's simply a myth that the quality is better. I mean sure, you'd have 50 double opt ins that are more responsive than a list of 50 single opt ins. But I can *guarantee you* that those 50 would-be double opt ins (who would have ALSO been on you list with single opt in), PLUS another 50 (that you'd lose with double opt in setting), are going to get you more clicks and sales. In other words, you'd still get all the same would-be double opt ins on your list using single opt in (obviously), but then you also get the many, many you'd *lose* with using single opt in. It's not as if all those extra people are dead, ya know? Now apply that to your full list. It's simply mathematically impossible NOT to do far better with single opt in.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
            Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

            The issue is not Aweber but the filters one might have on their inbox, or the usage of additional services just to kick the spam away. I use postini myself, and it filters a LOT of things, and occasionally someones confirm link.
            Ummm, maybe in a % of circumstances the filters the reciever is using does this, but I assure you, that lots of emails, regardless of filters land in the spam box, instead of the inbox.
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        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
          You would think that, since we pay them a lot of money, that they would do their job and optimize their deliverability for all subscriber types.

          But I'm willing to take the risk of less deliverability to 100% of the people who willingly optin to my list than a slightly higher deliverability to 50-70% of the people who optin and actually confirm.



          Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

          No it's not.

          AWeber use completely different SMTP servers for sending
          out e-mails for single opt-in and confirmed opt-in lists.

          Single opt-in servers begin with the prefix smtp-soi and
          confirmed opt-in servers smtp-coi for AWeber. There are
          many of each of them too and they have different IP
          addresses.

          In general, the single opt-in servers for AWeber have lower
          deliverability rates than the confirmed opt-in servers for
          AWeber.

          Why?

          Because their single opt-in servers have more bad e-mail
          addresses on them, e.g. mis-spellings, fake e-mails, and
          even malicious e-mails. These all hurt the reputation and
          deliverability of their single opt-in servers.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
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          • Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

            I'm willing to take the risk of less deliverability to 100% of the people who willingly optin to my list than a slightly higher deliverability to 50-70% of the people who optin and actually confirm.
            Good point Jason, I agree.
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          • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
            Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

            You would think that, since we pay them a lot of money, that they would do their job and optimize their deliverability for all subscriber types.
            The deliverability of each of AWeber's e-mail servers
            depends upon the behavior of the list owners and their
            list subscribers.

            It would be interesting to know how AWeber allocates
            their resources towards maintaining the deliverability
            rates of their single and confirmed opt-in servers.

            Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

            But I'm willing to take the risk of less deliverability to 100% of the people who willingly optin to my list than a slightly higher deliverability to 50-70% of the people who optin and actually confirm.
            Are you assuming that your approach leads to better
            results or do you have test results to prove it?

            I don't guess. I test.

            I run split tests and let the numbers tell me which
            option is best for the specific set-up.

            Sometimes, you can end up on a single opt-in server
            where the deliverability rates are much lower and
            negate the positive effects of the bigger list size.

            A bigger single opt-in list doesn't necessarily lead to
            better results - though sometimes it can.

            The key is which route gets more e-mails into the
            inbox rather than a significant proportion being filtered
            into the junk folder.

            Dedicated to mutual success,

            Shaun
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            • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
              Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

              The deliverability of each of AWeber's e-mail servers
              depends upon the behavior of the list owners and their
              list subscribers.

              It would be interesting to know how AWeber allocates
              their resources towards maintaining the deliverability
              rates of their single and confirmed opt-in servers.


              Are you assuming that your approach leads to better
              results or do you have test results to prove it?

              I don't guess. I test.

              I run split tests and let the numbers tell me which
              option is best for the specific set-up.

              Sometimes, you can end up on a single opt-in server
              where the deliverability rates are much lower and
              negate the positive effects of the bigger list size.

              A bigger single opt-in list doesn't necessarily lead to
              better results - though sometimes it can.

              The key is which route gets more e-mails into the
              inbox rather than a significant proportion being filtered
              into the junk folder.

              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
              Oh I'm totally assuming and as I previously stated am willing to take the risk of less deliverability to 100% of the people who willingly optin to my list than a slightly higher deliverability to 50-70% of the people who optin and actually confirm.

              There are a lot of things I test, but testing single vs double optin isn't one of them and I'm not afraid to admit it.

              Having previously worked with someone who's built their list over a million subscribers and seeing them and other multi-million dollar top direct response marketers and marketing companies use single optin, it had an influence on my decision to choose single-optin for my list building efforts.

              Maybe I will test it in the future for new lists, but maybe I won't. lol

              Most lists I build are outside of the IM space and I am happy with the optin rates.

              My list isn't my primary source of income though either.
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  • Profile picture of the author ATAC
    If your users are signing up threw a form, then I would choose not to use the double opt in and go with a single field just asking for the email address ...

    This will increase your opt in dramatically and you still cover your ass because they came threw the field that is proof of opt in ..
    I agree with WillR above..

    Best of luck
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    According to the canned spam act, once a person fills out a subscription form, you are allowed to email them until they opt out. Not confirming a double opt-in is not the same as opting out. So as long as your reminder email has a way for them to opt out, then you are in full compliance with the canned spam act.

    The opt-in is not at the point of clicking on the confirmation link - the opt-in was before that when they filled out the form.

    The one thing you do risk with the single opt-in is having someone using your form and filling in other people's email addresses, resulting in a lot of spam complaints for you. Which is why I think this reminder email is a great way to go.
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    • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
      Precisely. This type of message is transactional and therefore not subject to the CAN-SPAM Act.

      Originally Posted by Federal Trade Commission

      CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business | BCP Business Center

      Q. How do I know if the CAN-SPAM Act covers email my business is sending?

      A. What matters is the "primary purpose" of the message. To determine the primary purpose, remember that an email can contain three different types of information:
      • Commercial content – which advertises or promotes a commercial product or service, including content on a website operated for a commercial purpose;
      • Transactional or relationship content – which facilitates an already agreed-upon transaction or updates a customer about an ongoing transaction; and
      • Other content – which is neither commercial nor transactional or relationship.
      If the message contains only commercial content, its primary purpose is commercial and it must comply with the requirements of CAM-SPAM. If it contains only transactional or relationship content, its primary purpose is transactional or relationship. In that case, it may not contain false or misleading routing information, but is otherwise exempt from most provisions of the CAN-SPAM Act.
      If on the other hand it was advertising something in the reminder, it would be subject to the act.

      Just rolled out the automated reminder system on our larger lists and it did a one-time mass-mailing to all of the existing unconfirmed subscribers (since the system didn't exist when they first came into the system).

      Of course we can't recover those who haven't confirmed for 30+ days as they're auto-removed, but my cup is half full -- I'm excited to see how many new confirms we get tomorrow morning.
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    How's about redirecting them after the optin to your welcome page (not AWebers default one) where you have a short video running with YOU thanking them personally for the signup but reminding them that they MUST verify that optin to go ahead and get what they ask for.

    IMO more effective then sending another email if they already are lazy to look out for emails.

    And if AWeber verification emails end up in the spam folders, then it's time we request some explanations as they have a 99% success rate.

    "Internally we track our email deliverability both by measuring the number of undeliverable messages that are bounced back to us as well as more real world "inbox" deliverability numbers. Internally we track deliverability on a monthly basis exceeding 99%."

    Read the whole post here https://help.aweber.com/entries/2172...deliverability

    G.
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    • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
      Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post

      How's about redirecting them after the optin to your welcome page (not AWebers default one) where you have a short video running with YOU thanking them personally for the signup but reminding them that they MUST verify that optin to go ahead and get what they ask for.

      IMO more effective then sending another email if they already are lazy to look out for emails.

      And if AWeber verification emails end up in the spam folders, then it's time we request some explanations as they have a 99% success rate.

      "Internally we track our email deliverability both by measuring the number of undeliverable messages that are bounced back to us as well as more real world "inbox" deliverability numbers. Internally we track deliverability on a monthly basis exceeding 99%."

      Read the whole post here https://help.aweber.com/entries/2172...deliverability

      G.
      That explains everything -- note the very careful and specific phrasing.

      99% is the number of messages that don't bounce or aren't returned by the recipient's mail server. Note how unspecific ```as well as more real world "inbox" deliverability numbers``` is. This statement is technically correct even if every one of your messages go to the junk box -- their definition of deliverability is the email arriving on the recipient's mail server -- not what folder it lands in.

      From a technical standpoint, Aweber has no way to know how many land in someone's spam inbox and how many don't. They can only count the opens from some HTML messages and all clicks on their tracking links.

      Clicks and opens make delivery implicit, so they can use that number to formulate something -- it works the same way AWeber counts opens for plain-text messages (1 click = 1 open). The real non-spam inbox delivery percentage is certainly not 99%.

      Everyone here that uses AWeber knows that in the real world, their 99% delivery statement, as they intend it to be understood by the uninformed, is a bullshit asspull number.

      We still use AWeber because their list management services are great and compared to other autoresponders their real-world delivery rates are higher, but the facts are the facts.

      The biggest reason AWeber doesn't publish real deliverability numbers is probably because of the competitive implications it has -- not many would risk being so transparent and most if not all of the competitors would continue using their own fake numbers. Competitors would be able to say "AWeber has 60% deliverability and we have 95%! blah blah buy my product."
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      • Profile picture of the author bwh1
        Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

        That explains everything -- note the very careful and specific phrasing.

        99% is the number of messages that don't bounce or aren't returned by the recipient's mail server. Note how unspecific ```as well as more real world "inbox" deliverability numbers``` is. This statement is technically correct even if every one of your messages go to the junk box -- their definition of deliverability is the email arriving on the recipient's mail server -- not what folder it lands in.

        From a technical standpoint, Aweber has no way to know how many land in someone's spam inbox and how many don't. They can only count the opens from some HTML messages and clicks on their tracking links. Clicks and opens make delivery implicit, so they can use that number to formulate something. The real number is certainly not 99%.

        Everyone here that uses AWeber knows that 99% delivery is a bullshit asspull number.

        We still use AWeber because their list management services are great and compared to other autoresponders their delivery rates are higher, but the facts are the facts.
        Makes sense but if most would land in the spam folder their open rate would be close to nothing.

        Email marketing as it has been used is losing it's effectiveness after Gmail tabs and tighter spam filters.

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        • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
          Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post

          Makes sense but if most would land in the spam folder their open rate would be close to nothing.

          Email marketing as it has been used is losing it's effectiveness after Gmail tabs and tighter spam filters.

          G.
          I was just saying that technically, their statement is true even if you get zero opens, because no emails bounce. This is meant to point out that the real number can be anything regardless of the 99% number they tote around.

          I'm sure there will be breakthroughs in the ever evolving web to overcome issues like this. We've already thought of one, but it's a secret for now.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post

          Email marketing as it has been used is losing it's effectiveness after Gmail tabs and tighter spam filters.

          G.
          I'm making more money from my emails these days than I ever was. But for those who just rely on sending out promo after promo, yes, email marketing would be getting less effective for them. Is this to do with Gmail tabs and tighter spam filters? I really don't think so. I think it has WAY more to do with the increased competition than there was even just 1-2 years ago.

          Go back 5 years and there was maybe 1 product launch a week... if that. Now we are seeing about 4-5 new products launched each and every day of the week and so many more customers who have become vendors. This is what makes it hard for the typical email marketer to stand out and this is what's causing email marketing to lose it's effectiveness for some people.

          But I can honestly say the top marketers out there right now would not share your thoughts because they are making more money then ever from email marketing. But if you are stuck in the middle of all the white noise then you will find it very hard to stand out and very hard to make decent money with email marketing... and it's only going to get worse as time goes on and competition increases.
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  • Profile picture of the author hustlinsmoke
    You should take your post down. I am sure Aweber people are on the forum. You can't mail outside of Aweber like that. It's against there tos or used to be. I got kicked for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author tutis
    Poor me, my BIG question got lost in all the discussion :-)
    Now, again, I did a test, for one list, I switched back to single optin and same thing happening...
    The new leads convert to double optin, though the list is single optin.
    All these beautiful new leads sitting there unconfirmed, cry cry.
    And most give their name and last name, though I ask for only "name", so does that look like people who do not want to confirm or receive more messages?
    I´m pretty sure a scary high amount of mail from Aweber is qualified as spam, way more than anybody could fear. It really does not make sense. Qualified traffic, qualified landing pages, real names, emails (it seems), no spammy offers from me, real world things, so...
    Probably should survey a few from a gmail account and ask their opinion... I bet they reply to me and they are nice, another proof...
    I don´t get it, the behavior, Aweber forcing double optin though it is single, is the same as the test I did a while ago.
    Well, at least I don´t have to make a choice :-), I HAVE to use double optin. Strange I´m the only one, the world is crazy and I¨m not.
    Do I miss something here?
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by tutis View Post

      Poor me, my BIG question got lost in all the discussion :-)
      Now, again, I did a test, for one list, I switched back to single optin and same thing happening...
      The new leads convert to double optin, though the list is single optin.
      All these beautiful new leads sitting there unconfirmed, cry cry.
      And most give their name and last name, though I ask for only "name", so does that look like people who do not want to confirm or receive more messages?
      I´m pretty sure a scary high amount of mail from Aweber is qualified as spam, way more than anybody could fear. It really does not make sense. Qualified traffic, qualified landing pages, real names, emails (it seems), no spammy offers from me, real world things, so...
      Probably should survey a few from a gmail account and ask their opinion... I bet they reply to me and they are nice, another proof...
      I don´t get it, the behavior, Aweber forcing double optin though it is single, is the same as the test I did a while ago.
      Well, at least I don´t have to make a choice :-), I HAVE to use double optin. Strange I´m the only one, the world is crazy and I¨m not.
      Do I miss something here?
      1. With Aweber you cannot turn a list back to single optin. For a list to be single optin you must choose that option when you create the list and BEFORE your first subscriber joins. After that you cannot change it.

      2. Stop asking for your subscribers names. Personalization is an old trick and actually makes your emails look more corporate than personal. Ditch the name field and watch your conversions increase.
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      • Profile picture of the author bwh1
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Ditch the name field and watch your conversions increase.
        Small change with a big impact, I agree.

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      • Profile picture of the author arojilla
        Originally Posted by KevinChapman View Post

        I currently use them but when you see so many people not confirming it is tempting to take the double opt in off but then I think if they can't be bothered to confirm will they even open my emails?
        Exactly. I had my doubts but after reading you I've been thinking about it and concluded that what's the point of wasting time and resources with those that won't even bother to confirm? They either don't care or don't know how to do it, which for my niche, video games, is highly unlikely.

        Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

        I'm at the point of giving up on a niche which, for whatever reson seems to attract the interest of people with minimal computer skills. Even looking for mail in their spam folder seems to be beyond their capabilities. I remember one person in particular who signed up, then after a few hours began emailing me asking where his free gift was. This continued for several days with him getting more and more aggressive. I was replying to each of his contacts but obviously everything was going into his spam folder.
        LOL! I feel your pain but imagining your situation really made me laugh! Having to deal with this kind of people is the main reason I run away from freelance web design many years ago.
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  • I think there should be a freebies to every optin that you sent to your subscribers so that they can still confirm your message.
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  • Profile picture of the author flavius333
    using double opt-ins is will save you a lot of trouble in the long run but you have to know that you are deliberately leaving money on the table with this

    depends on your provider - but if you're self-hosted, there are many other more important things that you should care about in order to increase credibility/deliverability/opens/sales.

    p.s. welcome to the Inbox club )
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  • Profile picture of the author KingTIP
    Best option: Find more people who would be interested.
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  • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
    The results so far are astonishing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

      The results so far are astonishing.
      Good, I'm pleased. Out of interest, have you considered using capital letters after full stops in the headline to the site in your signature? Or getting entire words on one line?

      I'm not being a grammer cop I just wouldn't be surprised if you improved conversions even more. The headline was a bit off putting for me. I'm not trying to be rude, just offering some advice.
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      • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        Good, I'm pleased. Out of interest, have you considered using capital letters after full stops in the headline to the site in your signature? Or getting entire words on one line?

        I'm not being a grammer cop I just wouldn't be surprised if you improved conversions even more. The headline was a bit off putting for me. I'm not trying to be rude, just offering some advice.
        Of course I have tried, and it doesn't look great at all. You are being a grammar cop, but that's okay. I'm a spelling cop. You're under arrest for improperly spelling grammar. :p
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

          Of course I have tried, and it doesn't look great at all. You are being a grammar cop, but that's okay. I'm a spelling cop. You're under arrest for improperly spelling grammar. :p
          It's a fair cop, I'll come quietly.

          I genuinely did mean it with the best of intentions, I just thought it would read better but if you've tested it, fair play.
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  • Profile picture of the author jeffsolochek
    Originally Posted by vbresults View Post

    I realized a lot of our Aweber leads (low 30% to high of 60%) weren't confirming and therefore we were losing a lot of money. I did all the typical things to increase the confirm rate, i.e. making it so obvious a retarded parrot knew they had to click a confirm link, but the results weren't satisfactory on larger lists.

    I applied the simple practice of sending a follow-up email to leads that didn't confirm in the first 5-10 minutes -- from our email account (gmail), not aweber.

    The email mentioned they opted in and requested something, but didn't confirm. I went on to say the reason was likely due to the confirmation message being in the junk box.

    So far we've seen a solid 50% recovery rate. We've written a script to automate this using Aweber's PHP API, sending the emails from our web server. It appears all of our web server messages arrive in the inbox, like the gmail ones, instead of going to junk like aweber.

    Very simple and very effective -- it feels like I ran into amazing results by complete accident. I hope someone puts this to use for their lists.


    You must be vigilant in not allowing the misinformation under the first post to penetrate your mind. AWeber gave the OK and you get a lot more confirms.


    A lot of the people here are saying your method wouldn't be very kosher but I see no suggestions on how to get around this. What about on the main signup page giving them a message to check their SPAM folder or you could do it on a page that come's up when they initially hit 'Submit'. Have them check their junk folders. Let them know ahead of time.
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    I also build blogs for companies and individuals

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    • Profile picture of the author wpspamhammer
      Originally Posted by jeffsolochek View Post

      A lot of the people here are saying your method wouldn't be very kosher but I see no suggestions on how to get around this. What about on the main signup page giving them a message to check their SPAM folder or you could do it on a page that come's up when they initially hit 'Submit'. Have them check their junk folders. Let them know ahead of time.
      A lot of (all) of those people have less authority than Aweber who directly stated this is permissible.
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  • Profile picture of the author DraculaIM
    Great information in this thread. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shane N
    HOW TO INCREASE YOUR CONFIRM RATE, MY WAY:

    1. Don't send your subscribers to a "Thank You" page with the
    download immediately after opting in. That means you leave
    the "Confirmation Success Page URL" blank.

    2. In your confirmation request message, write something like:

    "Thanks for your interest in my FREE report/ebook/product/etc.
    Before I can email you the report, I want to be certain I have your permission.
    NOTE: After you confirm, please check your email for the PDF as it will be sent as an
    attachment, there is no "thank you" or download page."

    3. This way, anyone who wants to get the "gift" that they opted-in for...
    will have to confirm their subscription so that they receive your email
    with the goodies.

    This will surely give you an increase in confirmed opt-ins and it might even
    cause some people that put in a bogus email address to have to go back and
    opt-in using their REAL email address so they can receive your gift!

    Best,
    Shane
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    • Profile picture of the author heavysm
      Originally Posted by Shane N View Post

      This will surely give you an increase in confirmed opt-ins and it might even
      cause some people that put in a bogus email address to have to go back and
      opt-in using their REAL email address so they can receive your gift!
      If they really wanted the free gift wouldn't they put a real email anyway? That confirmation just looks like a stumbling block rather than an aid in any case.

      On another note, looking at Aweber's spam policy I came across the following:

      "Things You May Not Do With AWeber:

      - This includes trying to get people to sign up on an AWeber web form that you have placed on your website..."

      I knew aweber had a lot of guidelines to follow, but this one doesn't make sense to me. How is gathering leads through MY website with MY AWeber form on it not considered legitimate?
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