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An open letter to internet marketers

by fritzb43
92 replies
Hi there clever folks:

Just wanted to discuss your latest "ad" that I received from you for the latest WordPress plugin.

I mean, who writes these things? I counted, and I had to scroll down about 13 screens full of hype before I got to the price. And, of course, there is always a "Pro" version for more money.

I am going to let you in on a Big Secret - for FREE and I won't take 13 screens to do it.

Here it is: your typical user (and potential customer) *** HATES *** these ads. I think some sharp hustler dreamed this format up and all of you have been copying it ever since.

If so, you could be hurting your sales more than you know.

And what is with all the lurid graphics and different fonts? It's like trying to read a
moving pinball machine.

The original author of this format obviously had no notion of what sells on the web; it's all sizzle, with a disappointingly small steak at the finish.

"But it works," you say. Maybe it does. But how do you know a two-screen ad won't be even more effective?

Do you know what web usability is? Have you never read Jakob Nielsen? (see
Wikipedia) I didn't think so.

How about "Don't Make me Think!" You probably haven't read that one either.

"But I want my ad to stand out, to grab 'em", sez you. It's standing out all right - as
an example of how not to write copy on the web.

Here is Big Secret #2, also free, also something to think about. Ready?

Here it is: I, Fritz, a typical user became so annoyed at how far I had to scroll down, that by the time I reached the bottom of the ad, I really didn't care anymore what you were selling or even what the price was.

Think I was the *only* one who felt that way? You know darned well I wasn't. Yet you folks keep on doing it and wonder why your completion percentage isn't better.

Of course, maybe you're just selling all this promise-ware to each other, I dunno. I do know that there is enough ugly on the web already; why add to it?

Time to start thinking outside the box, people. Time to discard overlong ad formats
complete with dozens of different fonts, neon balloons and exploding ice cream cones. They looked semi-cool back in 1996; today they are simply laughable. And annoying.

You recall the definition of insanity, don't you? It is doing the same thing over and
over and expecting a different out come.

Have a great week! And for Pete's sake lose the carny pitches and learn to write up-to-date, effective copy.

Fritz B.
#internet #letter #marketers #open
  • Profile picture of the author stoltingmediagroup
    Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

    "But it works," you say. Maybe it does. But how do you know a two-screen ad won't be even more effective?
    Because the Marketers with time, budget and experience would have split tested this amongst all formats, layouts, and changing fonts, in order to derive at a winning and "converting" page for them. One that is targeted to their intended audience. You just happen to be one of the recipients that did not purchase, however the larger percentage most likely did. And that, is how you ended up with that sales copy in your inbox.
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    "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley).
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  • Profile picture of the author iMBg
    I'm with fritz on this one, when I see those ads I know I don't want to buy it, no matter how cheap it is, or what they're TRYING to sell.

    I don't get spam in my inbox because I don't sign up for that (sales copy) crap either. I don't care what free (worthless) item that you're giving away to get my email address, if that's what it costs for the "free" thing, I don't want it either.
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  • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
    This is an open letter to disgruntle web surfer!

    Who are you talking to, a particular seller or the warrior members as a whole, not all of us here are in the MMO niche.

    You have no idea what my copy looks like!

    In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king.
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    • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
      Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

      This is an open letter to disgruntle web surfer!

      Who are you talking to, a particular seller or the warrior members as a whole, not all of us here are in the MMO niche.

      You have no idea what my copy looks like!

      In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king.
      I can simply look at the replies and start making a list. Thank you for your knee-jerk response.
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      • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
        Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

        I can simply look at the replies and start making a list. Thank you for your knee-jerk response.
        Cold calling usually results from one of two things, boredom or desperation, neither of which have any place in an enlightened sales philosophy. But, what do I know, right? (Remember, though, I said enlightened. Lots of folks are staring up at a light bulb which will never go off.)
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  • Profile picture of the author iMBg
    Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

    So heck, if the copy sells, then that's the way to do it, and not the way you'd like it to read.
    That's how spammers and scammers justify their methods too. "But it works" (sometimes/on some people) doesn't mean it's good...
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

      That's how spammers and scammers justify their methods too. "But it works" (sometimes/on some people) doesn't mean it's good...
      I wasn't suggesting anything illegal by my comment, so please don't attribute such a sentiment to my comment.
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      • Profile picture of the author iMBg
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        I wasn't suggesting anything illegal by my comment, so please don't attribute such a sentiment to my comment.
        I didn't say that you were suggesting anything illegal I was pointing out that "it works" (like spammers/scammers often say) doesn't mean that it's good. :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

          I didn't say that you were suggesting anything illegal I was pointing out that "it works" doesn't mean that it's good. :rolleyes:
          Well, of course not. We should assume that most people here are operating within the bounds of the law. There's no need to bring in the idea of such shenanigans as you have unless there's reason to. Nobody in this thread has given any indication that they are spamming or scamming.
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          • Profile picture of the author iMBg
            Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

            Well, of course not. We should assume that most people here are operating within the bounds of the law. There's no need to bring in the idea of such shenanigans as you have unless there's reason to. Nobody in this thread has given any indication that they are spamming or scamming.
            It's perfectly legitimate to bring up because spammers and scammers DO try to use the "but it works" justification and if it doesn't apply to you or others, then you shouldn't be upset about the analogy. Nothing in my comment acussed anyone here of anything, it simply made a point. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author bkmjet
      Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

      "But it works" (sometimes/on some people) doesn't mean it's good...
      Isn't that exactly what it means? It may be incomplete, though: if it gets you more sales and less refunds, then why wouldn't they use it?
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      • Profile picture of the author iMBg
        Originally Posted by bkmjet View Post

        Isn't that exactly what it means? It may be incomplete, though: if it gets you more sales and less refunds, then why wouldn't they use it?
        Spam works (to some degree) too but *I* wouldn't use it...
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    • Profile picture of the author JamesDrew
      Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

      That's how spammers and scammers justify their methods too. "But it works" (sometimes/on some people) doesn't mean it's good...
      If you have or are promoting a legit product, why is getting more sales a "bad thing" like spam or scam?
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  • Profile picture of the author Beverley Boorer
    i too, am annoyed by long sales copy especially if it is full of fluff and hype; especially if it deliberately creates a sense of fear or of urgency. If I have to scroll down more than one screen length and the letter is still going, I skip it all and get right to the bottom where the price is. And sure as "eggs is eggs" it will have a large price crossed out, a slightly smaller price crossed out and another smaller (but still big) price offered to let you know how darn lucky you are to get it at that price!
    And I DON'T buy it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    Spamming and hyping a product is not really the way to sell it, I can feel your frustration because those spammers and all have made Internet marketing a bit difficult to take seriously anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author stoltingmediagroup
    This particular post has very little to do with spams or scams I believe, but merely talks about the format of a sales page. There is no relation between a blatant spammer saying "because it works" and a legit marketer with a lengthy sales page saying "because it works." Hype and lenghty sales pages are not illegal nor unethical. Spam is. Two totally different beasts... just saying.
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    Arnold Stolting - Stolting Media Group
    "I LOVE The Song! The Vibe Is Positive And Firm!" - Kymani Marley. (Son of Bob Marley).
    "Very High Quality!" Jeremy Harding - Manager / Producer. Sean Paul.
    "They Are FANTASTIC!" - Willie Crawford.
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    • Profile picture of the author iMBg
      Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup View Post

      This particular post has very little to do with spams or scams I believe, but merely talks about the format of a sales page. There is no relation between a blatant spammer saying "because it works" and a legit marketer with a lengthy sales page saying "because it works." Hype and lenghty sales pages are not illegal nor unethical. Spam is. Two totally different beasts... just saying.
      My reply was to another post who basically said, if it works use that copy. I simply pointed out (with an example) that "but it works" doesn't make it good which is on topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Seems like I've read this post once or a thousand times already.
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    Brian McLeod
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    • Profile picture of the author iMBg
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Seems like I've read this post once or a thousand times already.
      Something tells me that it won't be the last one on that same subject either.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Fritz,

    As they would say in sport, look at the scoreboard :-)

    They (and myself) use pages like that because they work. The reality is you can sit here and say what you like BUT if you actually came across a product that you desperately needed then you WOULD buy it regardless of how the information was presented. That's fact. The guy who needs chemotherapy isn't going to care about the color of the container the drug comes in.

    I have bought many products from some of the ugliest sales letters around and I have passed up many products from some of the most professional sales letters around. The difference was not in how great the information was presented. The difference was in how much I actually desired and/or needed that product.

    If you are not buying from these pages it only tells me one thing. You didn't need that product or that plugin or that software program. It's that simple. If you did you would have purchased it and proven your argument wrong like thousands of other buyers do on a daily basis.

    The figures don't lie. I much rather base my important marketing decisions off of actual results rather than the opinions of just a few people especially considering a LOT of people will say one thing but do the complete opposite. Everyone says they hate long sales pages. Everyone says they hate upgrades and one time offers. But the reality is they keep on buying them week after week after week after week.
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    • Profile picture of the author iMBg
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Fritz,

      As they would say in sport, look at the scoreboard :-)

      They (and myself) use pages like that because they work. The reality is you can sit here and say what you like BUT if you actually came across a product that you desperately needed then you WOULD buy it regardless of how the information was presented. That's fact. The guy who needs chemotherapy isn't going to care about the color of the container the drug comes in.

      I have bought many products from some of the ugliest sales letters around and I have passed up many products from some of the most professional sales letters around. The difference was not in how great the information was presented. The difference was in how much I actually desired and/or needed that product.

      If you are not buying from these pages it only tells me one thing. You didn't need that product or that plugin or that software program. It's that simple. If you did you would have purchased it and proven your argument wrong like thousands of other buyers do on a daily basis.

      The figures don't lie. I much rather base my important marketing decisions off of actual results rather than the opinions of just a few people especially considering a LOT of people will say one thing but do the complete opposite. Everyone says they hate long sales pages. Everyone says they hate upgrades and one time offers. But the reality is they keep on buying them week after week after week after week.
      I wouldn't equate the stuff sold in those types of ads as needed like chemotherapy drugs but I can tell you that I've NEVER bought anything from that kind of copy and I was looking for similar products at the time so the "you'd buy it if you needed it" line is BS. I refuse to buy from that kind of marketing and I challenge* anyone to find one that I couldn't resist. Such a product/service does not exist.

      (*Seriously, don't PM me a bunch of ads to test that, I'm not interested)
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      • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
        Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

        I refuse to buy from that kind of marketing and I challenge* anyone to find one that I couldn't resist. Such a product/service does not exist.

        Who cares that you'll never bite, one down and millions more to go.


        Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

        (*Seriously, don't PM me a bunch of ads to test that, I'm not interested)

        Get over yourself, nobody wants to pm you.
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        • Profile picture of the author iMBg
          Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

          Who cares that you'll never bite, one down and millions more to go.
          You mad?
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

        I wouldn't equate the stuff sold in those types of ads as needed like chemotherapy drugs but I can tell you that I've NEVER bought anything from that kind of copy and I was looking for similar products at the time so the "you'd buy it if you needed it" line is BS.
        Once again, it just tells me you didn't need the product bad enough. Sure, you may have been browsing for a product or service and may indeed have been ready to purchase. But you didn't need it bad enough and that's why you didn't buy. My chemotherapy example is indeed relevant because I am telling you that when someone desires something so much they don't give a crap about how it's presented or what the sales page might look like. If they need it they will buy it. If they don't need it (like in your example above) then they don't buy it.

        Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

        I refuse to buy from that kind of marketing and I challenge* anyone to find one that I couldn't resist. Such a product/service does not exist.
        Refusing to buy something because of the look of a salespage hurts absolutely nobody except for yourself. If it was a product or service you desperately needed and you turned your back on it because you simply didn't like the look of the salespage, well that's just bad business on your part. The reality is most do buy from those pages and my bank account proves it. That's exactly why we use those pages. A few people who say they would never buy from those pages are not going to change our minds because the reality is those people would probably never buy anything anyway.. and they are not part of the majority we are aiming our message at.
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        • Profile picture of the author iMBg
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Once again, it just tells me you didn't need the product bad enough. Sure, you may have been browsing for a product or service and may indeed have been ready to purchase. But you didn't need it bad enough and that's why you didn't buy. My chemotherapy example is indeed relevant because I am telling you that when someone desires something so much they don't give a crap about how it's presented or what the sales page might look like. If they need it they will buy it. If they don't (like n your example above) then they don't buy it.



          Refusing to buy something because of the look of a salespage hurts absolutely nobody except for yourself. If it was a product or service you desperately needed and you turned your back on it because you simply didn't like the look of the salespage, well that's just bad business on your part. The reality is most do buy from those pages and my bank account proves it. That's exactly why we use those pages. A few people who say they would never buy from those pages are not going to change our minds because the reality is those people would probably never buy anything anyway.
          You're right that I don't need them, there are other and better places to get whatever it is those ads are selling. While there may be desperate and stupid people willing to buy anything from anybody, I'm not one of them.

          No, refusing to buy from "those ads" doesn't hurt me in the least, that's just arrogant thinking to assume that it does. I've never heard anyone trying to sell those kind of ads that doesn't claim that their bank account proves something.

          Notice how it's those that use those kind of ads that are all butt-hurt over those of us that don't fall for those kind of ads?

          I was born at night...just not last night.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheEye
        Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

        I wouldn't equate the stuff sold in those types of ads as needed like chemotherapy drugs but I can tell you that I've NEVER bought anything from that kind of copy and I was looking for similar products at the time so the "you'd buy it if you needed it" line is BS. I refuse to buy from that kind of marketing and I challenge* anyone to find one that I couldn't resist. Such a product/service does not exist.

        (*Seriously, don't PM me a bunch of ads to test that, I'm not interested)
        The question is, do you want to market your product to the 1% who get hot under the collar about these ads or to the other 99% who are accepting of them?
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by TheEye View Post

          The question is, do you want to market your product to the 1% who get hot under the collar about these ads or to the other 99% who are accepting of them?
          Exactly!

          And those 1% are usually your biggest PITA customers anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author iMBg
          Originally Posted by TheEye View Post

          The question is, do you want to market your product to the 1% who get hot under the collar about these ads or to the other 99% who are accepting of them?
          Why does refusal to fall for silly marketing make somebody "hot under the collar?" What makes you think that 99% fall for that stuff? :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
            Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

            You mad?

            Not at all.


            Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

            Why does refusal to fall for silly marketing make somebody "hot under the collar?" What makes you think that 99% fall for that stuff? :rolleyes:




            Fall for what stuff? You speak as if we all market a scam product, It works because I test my copy and when I find a winner, I don't try to fix what's not broken.


            Now if you're done hijacking this thread, do you think that the OP can have it back.
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            • Profile picture of the author iMBg
              Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

              Fall for what stuff? You speak as if we all market a scam product, It works because I test my copy and when I find a winner, I don't try to fix what's not broken.
              I never said all, nor would I. That doesnt mean that they're all legit either.

              I'm talking about the type of ad that the OP was talking about. Why are you trying to make it about something else? It's certainly not about me despite the desperate people that keep trying to make it about me.
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

            Why does refusal to fall for silly marketing make somebody "hot under the collar?"
            Buying something you need is not falling for anything.

            When I go to the shops and buy bread does that mean I have fallen for the bread ads I see on television?

            No, I need bread and so I buy it. I'm not going to NOT buy bread because I didn't like their tv advertisement. That would just be stupid and is exactly what you are saying.

            The fact is you self admittedly let your ego get in the way of buying things you might otherwise need. As stated before, that hurts no one else but yourself. So you are welcome to keep that outlook on things as it won't effect anyone else.

            But if you hate marketing so much then why are you here?

            "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum Since 1997"
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            • Profile picture of the author iMBg
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              When I go to the shops and buy bread does that mean I have fallen for the bread ads I see on television?

              The fact is you self admittedly let your ego get in the way of buying things you might otherwise need. As stated before, that hurts no one else but yourself. So you are welcome to keep that outlook on things as it won't effect anyone else.

              But if you hate marketing so much then why are you here?

              "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum Since 1997"
              Buying BREAD is not falling for silly marketing, buying "how to get rich on the internet" probably is.

              People *need* bread they don't need some get rich on the internet or how to stop going bald nonsense. I don't NEED whatever it is you sell and I wouldn't knowingly buy from people with a bad attitude either.

              Ego has nothing to do with me not buying what you imagine (falsely) that I need. I don't buy from sources that I don't trust and those kind of ads don't elicit any trust from me. Keep trying to make it about me instead of the bad ads, you only prove that I'm right to be skeptical.

              I'm not against marketing, in general, I'm against decepetive marketing...anywhere. I'm here to possibly find products and/or services that I want (not need) assuming that I can find something/somebody that I can trust and I'm here to learn what to do and what not to do. I choose not to do what, evidently, you do choose to do. Why are *you* so upset because I don't like the kind of ads that you rely on? Why does my legitimate critism hit such a nerve? Does my refusal to buy junk from you cut your profit in half? Quit taking it so personally, not everyone likes the same methods that you do. Some of us just aren't gullible.
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    I take it someone took down the 'Please don't Feed the Trolls' Sign again....
    Jack

    Spam works (to some degree) too but *I* wouldn't use it...
    Classic!

    Now I'm waiting for 'Proof by intimidation' post...

    Jack
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by jacktackett View Post

      Now I'm waiting for 'Proof by intimidation' post...
      Ok tough guy... put up or shut up.

      Where's all this "Proof by Intimidation" crap?

      And don't try weasling your way out by whining, "do your own homework".

      Point me to the threads.
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  • Profile picture of the author MKCookins
    I believe most smart marketers do the exact opposite of what you experienced.

    Anyone with experience in internet marketing knows users have a very short attention span on the internet! This is why first 3 seconds when someone comes to your site is crucial!

    The truth is you don't need fancy text and tons of color graphics to catch the readers's attention -- just highlight very quickly the benefits of what your selling and have a strong call to action of where to buy it.
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    Fact: Only 3% of people Become Successful Online.
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    • Profile picture of the author iMBg
      Originally Posted by MKCookins View Post

      I believe most smart marketers do the exact opposite of what you experienced.

      Anyone with experience in internet marketing knows users have a very short attention span on the internet! This is why first 3 seconds when someone comes to your site is crucial!

      The truth is you don't need fancy text and tons of color graphics to catch the readers's attention -- just highlight very quickly the benefits of what your selling and have a strong call to action of where to buy it.
      Now THAT, I believe...
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    • Profile picture of the author TheEye
      Originally Posted by MKCookins View Post

      I believe most smart marketers do the exact opposite of what you experienced.

      Anyone with experience in internet marketing knows users have a very short attention span on the internet! This is why first 3 seconds when someone comes to your site is crucial!

      The truth is you don't need fancy text and tons of color graphics to catch the readers's attention -- just highlight very quickly the benefits of what your selling and have a strong call to action of where to buy it.
      Most people read at between 4 and 5 words per second.

      In 3 seconds they are only going to read at most 15 words.

      This is most likely going to be your headline.

      The big secret is to presell people on reading your page before they get to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
      Originally Posted by MKCookins View Post

      I believe most smart marketers do the exact opposite of what you experienced.

      Anyone with experience in internet marketing knows users have a very short attention span on the internet! This is why first 3 seconds when someone comes to your site is crucial!

      The truth is you don't need fancy text and tons of color graphics to catch the readers's attention -- just highlight very quickly the benefits of what your selling and have a strong call to action of where to buy it.
      Of course! You & I get that - the stubborn and the fearful do not.
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  • Profile picture of the author KnightOnboard
    Is that appealing to you target audience? If so, it will make you money no matter how you dress your message.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader909
    yet cold calling seems ok?

    Spamming and hyping a product is not really the way to sell it
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  • Profile picture of the author iMBg
    I know it might be an overgeneralization but it seems logical that the only people that aren't against spamming and deceptive marketing are probably those that use spam and deceptive marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Simple sells.
    Thank you for that. This is a concept that is unknown in the land of "promiseware".
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

    I am going to let you in on a Big Secret - for FREE and I won't take 13 screens to do it.

    Here it is: your typical user (and potential customer) *** HATES *** these ads. I think some sharp hustler dreamed this format up and all of you have been copying it ever since. ... And what is with all the lurid graphics and different fonts? It's like trying to read a moving pinball machine.

    ...

    Here is Big Secret #2, also free, also something to think about. Ready?

    Here it is: I, Fritz, a typical user became so annoyed at how far I had to scroll down, that by the time I reached the bottom of the ad, I really didn't care anymore what you were selling or even what the price was.

    Think I was the *only* one who felt that way? You know darned well I wasn't. Yet you folks keep on doing it and wonder why your completion percentage isn't better.
    ha ha ha ... always nice to start the day with a laugh. I'd like to see your split tests on sales letter formats for the IM crowd, please. Your opinion isn't really worth much. Everyone has one of those.

    ... and then there's that typical user thing. You think that saying that you are a typical user, when evidence indicates otherwise, makes it so. Well, it doesn't. These things have long been tested by professional marketers, which obviously you haven't done. You may be a typical user for Amazon, but you are not typical for the IMers.

    The long sales letter is a beast of the IM market. Obviously, Amazon doesn't sell physical products using this format, and Amazon knows what their "typical customer" wants. They've split tested, just as the IM crowd has done.

    I am not a typical user and to tell you the truth, I prefer shorter sales letters and I don't care much for hype and cheesy graphics, but in the end, what matters to me is the product. If it's something that I want and need, you could handwrite it on toilet paper and I'm going to buy it. If it's not something I want or need, I'm not going to be reading that letter no matter what format it's in. Simple as that.
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    • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      If it's something that I want and need, you could handwrite it on toilet paper and I'm going to buy it.[/b] If it's not something I want or need, I'm not going to be reading that letter no matter what format it's in. Simple as that.
      So, if you want to make money and I offer to sell you a toll bridge, that you need, in Brooklyn that makes millions *for just 19.99, no wait 9.99...no 7.99* and I present the deed/pitch on toilet paper, then you might pay up?

      I think there's more to it than that and, like others here, I don't like the dishonest long ads. I have to wonder/worry about anyone that claims they'd buy something, no matter what the pitch was, if they wanted/needed it. I'd hate to see anyone taken advantage of like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

        So, if you want to make money and I offer to sell you a toll bridge, that you need, in Brooklyn that makes millions *for just 19.99, no wait 9.99...no 7.99* and I present the deed/pitch on toilet paper, then you might pay up?
        Of course I'd buy a toll bridge for $7.99 whether the sales letter was on toilet paper or not. Considering the value of a toll bridge, that would be a bargain. If it turned out to be a cracker jack toll bridge, rather than a real one, lesson learned and I don't cry over 8 stinking bucks

        Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

        I think there's more to it than that and, like others here, I don't like the dishonest long ads. I have to wonder/worry about anyone that claims they'd buy something, no matter what the pitch was, if they wanted/needed it. I'd hate to see anyone taken advantage of like that.
        I dislike dishonest short ads as much as dishonest long ads. We weren't discussing dishonesty. We were discussing the ad format. I don't automatically assume that a seller is dishonest because they happen to use the long sales letter format and cheesy graphics.

        I am rarely taken advantage of. I am an informed consumer and I never make my buying decisions based on a sales letter. There's a whole lot more that I factor in, such as the reputation of the seller being a primary factor. You see, I don't buy Make Money Online products. Never have. I buy tools, plugins, software, etc. that will enhance my business in some way. The things I buy do not need "persuasion" to get me to buy. All that is needed is that someone is selling what I have been wanting for my business endeavors, and preferably (but not always), that someone who has a long established good reputation.

        You seem to making an assumption that all sellers who use the long sales letter format are dishonest.
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        • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Of course I'd buy a toll bridge for $7.99 whether it was on toilet paper or not. Considering the value of a toll bridge, that would be a bargain.



          I dislike dishonest short ads as much as dishonest long ads. We weren't discussing dishonesty. We were discussing the ad format. I don't automatically assume that a seller is dishonest because they happen to use the long sales letter format and cheesy graphics.

          I am rarely taken advantage of. I am an informed consumer and I never make my buying decisions based on a sales letter. There's a whole lot more that I factor in, such as the reputation of the seller being a primary factor. You see, I don't buy Make Money Online products. Never have. I buy tools, plugins, software, etc. that will enhance my business in some way. The things I buy do not need "persuasion" to get me to buy. All that is needed is that someone is selling what I have been wanting for my business endeavors, and preferably (but not always), that someone who has a long established good reputation.

          You seem to making an assumption that all sellers who use the long sales letter format are dishonest.
          Want to buy a bridge?

          Actually some of the replies *were* talking about dishonest ads but after looking at the OP again, he didn't mention that aspect of long ads but Beverley Boorer did:
          "i too, am annoyed by long sales copy especially if it is full of fluff and hype; especially if it deliberately creates a sense of fear or of urgency. If I have to scroll down more than one screen length and the letter is still going, I skip it all and get right to the bottom where the price is. And sure as "eggs is eggs" it will have a large price crossed out, a slightly smaller price crossed out and another smaller (but still big) price offered to let you know how darn lucky you are to get it at that price!
          And I DON'T buy it."

          I'm actually glad to hear that you don't just buy regardless of the ad despite the claims that the ad makes no difference. If the ad made no difference, perhaps they actually would be written on toilet paper and that might make some of them worth more than usual.

          I don't know why you (and the long ad people) seem to imply that those of us that don't like the long ads think that EVERYONE that uses long ads are dishonest. I see not one post that says that *every* long ad is a lie. I think some people are trying to make some comments into something that they're not and I could only speculate as to why they'd exaggerate the intentions of other posts.

          Are you saying all long ads are honest? Of course not so why the attempt to twist other peoples' words into something else? Why can't "long ad people" just accept opposing opinions without trying to imply they said something that they didn't?
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

            Actually some of the replies *were* talking about dishonest ads but after looking at the OP again, he didn't mention that aspect of long ads

            I don't know why you (and the long ad people) seem to imply that those of us that don't like the long ads think that EVERYONE that uses long ads are dishonest.
            That was a simple response to your post where you said:
            like others here, I don't like the dishonest long ads."

            As I said, I have no tolerance for dishonest ads, such as ads that make outrageous income claims or other unsubstantiated claims, but I really could care less what format a seller uses as long as it's long enough to give me the details of exactly what the product does. Any additional info for those who need persuasion is easily skimmed over by me.
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            • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              That was a simple response to your post where you said:
              like others here, I don't like the dishonest long ads."

              As I said, I have no tolerance for dishonest ads, such as ads that make outrageous income claims or other unsubstantiated claims, but I really could care less what format a seller uses as long as it's long enough to give me the details of exactly what the product does. Any additional info for those who need persuasion is easily skimmed over by me.
              Your EXACT words were:
              "You seem to making an assumption that all sellers who use the long sales letter format are dishonest."

              I made no such assumption and neither did any other post that I've read here despite several "defenders" trying to imply otherwise.
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        • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Of course I'd buy a toll bridge for $7.99 whether the sales letter was on toilet paper or not. Considering the value of a toll bridge, that would be a bargain. If it turned out to be a cracker jack toll bridge, rather than a real one, lesson learned and I don't cry over 8 stinking bucks



          I dislike dishonest short ads as much as dishonest long ads. We weren't discussing dishonesty. We were discussing the ad format. I don't automatically assume that a seller is dishonest because they happen to use the long sales letter format and cheesy graphics.

          I am rarely taken advantage of. I am an informed consumer and I never make my buying decisions based on a sales letter. There's a whole lot more that I factor in, such as the reputation of the seller being a primary factor. You see, I don't buy Make Money Online products. Never have. I buy tools, plugins, software, etc. that will enhance my business in some way. The things I buy do not need "persuasion" to get me to buy. All that is needed is that someone is selling what I have been wanting for my business endeavors, and preferably (but not always), that someone who has a long established good reputation.

          You seem to making an assumption that all sellers who use the long sales letter format are dishonest.
          Not at all. I believe that there are folks here, a few, who are actually selling useful products or information, as opposed to empty promises or "here's how I did it, you can too, honest!!".

          My *real* reason for the open letter is this: if I simply want to know what time it is, I don't want to learn how to make a watch or take a course in the history of watchmaking, complete with dancing girls, fire engines and sound effects. The bigger an ad, the more skeptical I become and the more sure I become that I am getting the hard sell. Hard sell == no sale.

          Bottom line: If you are selling a product or service be brief, be apt, be on-target, be accurate, be truthful, be legitimate. Hell, start a trend. Who knows what would come of it?
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          • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
            Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting View Post

            Just was a part of a launch that did over $1million T/O.

            LONG COPY, so long it made me wince.

            I'm so turned off by long copy now, my day simply doesn't include the available time to wade through this tat, but if it's done well - it works.

            Don't expect to see the end of it any day soon.
            Yes, as others have said, it *does* work but that doesn't make it good, right? Are you likely to "wade though" long ads now that they've turned you off? I think not. Wouldn't an ad style that doesn't turn people off be better? I'd think so.

            Frankly, the "it works" so it's OK mantra is a bit off putting too and it's something that we discussed in my Marketing Ethics thread.
            "Originally Posted by mojojuju
            So heck, if the copy sells, then that's the way to do it, and not the way you'd like it to read."
            When imbg brought up that it's not always OK, just because it works, he was crucified and that bothers me because he was right and people implied that he said something he didn't.


            Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

            Not at all. I believe that there are folks here, a few, who are actually selling useful products or information, as opposed to empty promises or "here's how I did it, you can too, honest!!".
            Nobody that is against long ads has said anything different but "the defenders" have implied intentions that were never made. Of course there are some honest long ads but the one that aren't have ruined it for me and others. Like it or not, that is reality.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

              Your EXACT words were:
              "You seem to making an assumption that all sellers who use the long sales letter format are dishonest."

              I made no such assumption and neither did any other post that I've read here despite several "defenders" trying to imply otherwise.
              I know what my exact words were and I know what yours were and I was responding to your post and your post only. I'm not going to argue over how your post sounded to me and what you actually meant to say.

              Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

              Frankly, the "it works" so it's OK mantra is a bit off putting too
              The solution is simple. Don't use long ads and don't read them and don't buy anything from them.

              Personally, I would have missed a lot of products that I am extremely happy with if I had done so.

              Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean that they aren't effective and effective is the goal of a sales letter. You won't sway people who have tested them against using them just because of an implied threat that *you* will not buy their product. Their sales numbers say that you aren't that significant in comparison to the people who will buy. Again, just to be clear and on topic, I am talking about long sales letters without the distinction of "dishonest long sales letters."
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              • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                The solution is simple. Don't use long ads and don't read them and don't buy anything from them.

                Personally, I would have missed a lot of products that I am extremely happy with if I had done so.

                Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean that they aren't effective and effective is the goal of a sales letter. You won't sway people who have tested them against using them just because of an implied threat that *you* will not buy their product. Their sales numbers say that you aren't that significant in comparison to the people who will buy. Again, just to be clear and on topic, I am talking about long sales letters without the distinction of "dishonest long sales letters."
                That is, indeed, simple but when imbg said he didn't buy from long ads (and I later said the same) he was attacked for it and I, too, was accused of saying things I never said.

                Nobody is telling others not to buy from long ads either, some of us have just posted that we don't like them and that's not accepted by some people here.

                I think that more than one person has covered the "it works" argument and while that might be enough for some people, it's just not enough for everyone. I'm not trying to sway anyone and I won't buy their products if they use long ads and that should be OK too but it seems that people aren't allowed to have opinions that differ. For some unreasonable reason, the bad guys are the people that won't buy from those that *do* use them.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                  That is, indeed, simple but when imbg said he didn't buy from long ads (and I later said the same) he was attacked for it and I, too, was accused of saying things I never said.

                  Nobody is telling others not to buy from long ads either, some of us have just posted that we don't like them and that's not accepted by some people here.
                  I don't care what imbg said. I didn't bother responding to any of his/her posts since he/she was focused far more on spammers/scammers than a discussion of long sales letters.


                  Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                  but it seems that people aren't allowed to have opinions that differ. For some unreasonable reason, the bad guys are the people that won't buy from those that *do* use them.
                  I didn't see anyone stopping anyone from having their opinions in the thread. I think everyone got their say in and just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that they called you a bad guy.

                  This is a discussion forum and on any topic, there are disagreements, which are mostly pretty civil, including this one.
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                  • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    I don't care what imbg said. I didn't bother responding to any of his/her posts since he/she was focused far more on spammers/scammers than a discussion of long sales letters.




                    I didn't see anyone stopping anyone from having their opinions in the thread. I think everyone got their say in and just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that they called you a bad guy.

                    This is a discussion forum and on any topic, there are disagreements, which are mostly pretty civil, including this one.
                    Again, you're implying he meant something that he explains he didn't. You're basically saying he's lying about what he meant.


                    The attacks and trying to twist what was said because some people don't like what was said is an attempt to stifle debate, imho. If you don't see what I see, we'll just have to disagree but I can quote several attacks that were not just civil disagreements. I just shouldn't have to.

                    I'll make this as clear as I can:
                    If *I* don't like an ad, regardless if it works and regardless if other people do like it, *that* should be a good enough reason to *not* buy something since it's my wallet. I shouldn't (nobody should) be attacked by marketers and accused of saying things that were never said, for that decision.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                      Again, you're implying he meant something that he explains he didn't. You're basically saying he's lying about what he meant.
                      I'm not implying anything other than I didn't care to respond to his/her posts.

                      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                      The attacks and trying to twist what was said because some people don't like what was said is an attempt to stifle debate, imho. If you don't see what I see, we'll just have to disagree but I can quote several attacks that were not just civil disagreements. I just shouldn't have to.
                      Whatever. You see attacks ... I see a discussion.

                      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                      I'll make this as clear as I can:
                      If *I* don't like an ad, regardless if it works and regardless if other people do like it, *that* should be a good enough reason to *not* buy something since it's my wallet. I shouldn't (nobody should) be attacked by marketers and accused of saying things that were never said, for that decision.
                      You must be a very sensitive type to feel so attacked by a discussion. I personally don't care what you or anyone else buys or doesn't buy or likes or doesn't like ... certainly not enough to attack anyone for it, but I will post my opinion as well, like it or not.
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                      • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        I'm not implying anything other than I didn't care to respond to his/her posts.



                        Whatever. You see attacks ... I see a discussion.



                        You must be a very sensitive type to feel so attacked by a discussion. I personally don't care what you or anyone else buys or doesn't buy or likes or doesn't like ... certainly not enough to attack anyone for it, but I will post my opinion as well, like it or not.
                        You say, now, that you weren't implying something but you said "he/she was focused far more on spammers/scammers than a discussion of long sales letters." Even though he clearly said that he wasn't implying that all long sales were spam/scams. Couldn't just take that, on his word, as good enough though, since he still disagreed about the long ads. No, people assumed he meant something else even after he explained what he meant. Frankly, that attack on his honesty is worse than misinterpreting what he said, imho.

                        Clearly you were implying.

                        Really, you don't see any attacks?
                        "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king."
                        Isn't an attack on Fritz?

                        "I take it someone took down the 'Please don't Feed the Trolls' Sign again...."
                        Calling somebody a troll for having a different opinion isn't an attack to you?

                        "Get over yourself, nobody wants to pm you."
                        That isn't an attack?

                        "Now if you're done hijacking this thread, do you think that the OP can have it back."
                        Accusing people of hijacking a thread when the comments were on-topic isn't an attack designed to stifle debate?

                        "The discussion turned heated due to the implication that because *I* don't like it, it is stupid and if you had half a brain you would see that."
                        What if Fritz or imbg had called somebody stupid for disagreeing?

                        I guess we have different opinions on what civil debate is too. If that makes me "sensitive" in your eyes, I can live with that. :rolleyes:
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                          You say, now, that you weren't implying something but you said "he/she was focused far more on spammers/scammers than a discussion of long sales letters." Even though he clearly said that he wasn't implying that all long sales were spam/scams. Couldn't just take that, on his word, as good enough though, since he still disagreed about the long ads. No, people assumed he meant something else even after he explained what he meant. Frankly, that attack on his honesty is worse than misinterpreting what he said, imho.

                          Clearly you were implying.

                          Really, you don't see any attacks?
                          "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king."
                          Isn't an attack on Fritz?

                          "I take it someone took down the 'Please don't Feed the Trolls' Sign again...."
                          Calling somebody a troll for having a different opinion isn't an attack to you?

                          "Get over yourself, nobody wants to pm you."
                          That isn't an attack?

                          "Now if you're done hijacking this thread, do you think that the OP can have it back."
                          Accusing people of hijacking a thread when the comments were on-topic isn't an attack designed to stifle debate?

                          "The discussion turned heated due to the implication that because *I* don't like it, it is stupid and if you had half a brain you would see that."
                          What if Fritz or imbg had called somebody stupid for disagreeing?

                          I guess we have different opinions on what civil debate is too. If that makes me "sensitive" in your eyes, I can live with that. :rolleyes:
                          You actually are the one in this thread with an argumentative, hostile, accusing, strident tone and I'm bored with you now.
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                          • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            You actually are the one in this thread with a hostile accusing, strident tone and I'm bored with you now.
                            Don't get frustrated because I quoted you saying one thing and then another...I thought this was all civil debate? Until I provided quotes that prove it wasn't, I guess.

                            Sad...I guess "civil" is only for those that agree with some people.


                            Good night...
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                              Don't get frustrated because I quoted you saying one thing and then another...I thought this was all civil debate? Until I provided quotes that prove it wasn't, I guess.

                              Sad...I guess "civil" is only for those that agree with some people.

                              Good night...
                              No actually you were telling me what I said when I know what I said and why I said it. The poster in question mentioned spammers and scammers in his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th posts and after that I really lost interest in his/her posts as I preferred the topic of long sales letters. So don't put words in my mouth and interpret what I post any way that you see fit.

                              Anyone who disagrees with you is uncivil in your book.
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                              • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                No actually you were telling me what I said when I know what I said and why I said it. The poster in question mentioned spammers and scammers in his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th posts and after that I really lost interest in his/her posts as I preferred the topic of long sales letters. So don't put words in my mouth and interpret what I post any way that you see fit.

                                Anyone who disagrees with you is uncivil in your book.
                                Mentioning the words spam/scam doesn't mean he claimed that all long ads were and he even said that wasn't what he meant.
                                "I didn't say that you were suggesting anything illegal I was pointing out that "it works" (like spammers/scammers often say) doesn't mean that it's good."
                                "It's perfectly legitimate to bring up because spammers and scammers DO try to use the "but it works" justification and if it doesn't apply to you or others, then you shouldn't be upset about the analogy. Nothing in my comment acussed anyone here of anything, it simply made a point."
                                "My reply was to another post who basically said, if it works use that copy. I simply pointed out (with an example) that "but it works" doesn't make it good which is on topic."

                                Keep trying to twist the words of people you don't agree with though...

                                Once again YOU imply that I said "anyone" when I neither said nor meant any such thing. I quoted the posts with a lack of civility and if it had been on the other foot you'd be claiming Fritz, etc were the uncivil ones. pot/kettle/black :rolleyes:
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
                          Originally Posted by rocket2uranus View Post

                          "The discussion turned heated due to the implication that because *I* don't like it, it is stupid and if you had half a brain you would see that."
                          Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                          "What if Fritz or imbg had called somebody stupid for disagreeing?
                          Clearly, my point was completely lost on you.
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                          • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
                            Originally Posted by rocket2uranus View Post

                            Clearly, my point was completely lost on you.
                            Well, if I misinterpreted what you meant, then imbg's point must have been completely lost on you as well since that wasn't what he said nor implied. :rolleyes:

                            At least I'm willing to take your clarification on your word. Too bad others can't take his clarification on his word.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      This is getting awfully off topic.

                      Where's Fritz gone?
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                      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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                      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                        Where's Fritz gone?
                        Maybe Fritz is on the fritz.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                          Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                          Maybe Fritz is on the fritz.
                          ...or buying some chips?
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                          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        Because the Marketers with time, budget and experience would have split tested this amongst all formats
                        How many newer marketers, I wonder, write long, long sales copy in the assumption "it works" because they believe 'marketers with more' money/time/budget...have already proven it to work? Testing is the key - for every piece of sales copy and every product.

                        Effective long sales copy is a structured approach - and I don't see anyone mentioning that here (maybe I missed it).

                        The first 2-3 paragraphs or list of bullet points at the top of the sales page provide factual, condensed selling points followed by a quick "buy link". Then the copy begins to expand and repeat and describe and convince and reinforce in an effort to capture undecided buyers.

                        There is no right or wrong when it comes to sales page length but any sale copy needs to be planned and structured in a deliberate way to appeal to the largest possible audience of potential buyers...and tested/tweaked/tested....

                        kay
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                    • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
                      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                      The attacks and trying to twist what was said because some people don't like what was said is an attempt to stifle debate,

                      What attacks?





                      Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

                      I shouldn't (nobody should) be attacked by marketers and accused of saying things that were never said, for that decision.

                      Show me were anyone in this thread has been attacked! You have an opinion and so do others and if someone disagrees with you, it doesn't constitute an attack.
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            • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
              Originally Posted by GrowTutor View Post

              Yes, as others have said, it *does* work but that doesn't make it good, right?
              If by "good" , you mean, does it sell - then yes, it's good.

              Are you likely to "wade though" long ads now that they've turned you off? I think not. Wouldn't an ad style that doesn't turn people off be better? I'd think so.
              What you think and what actually works in the real world can always be mutually exclusive. Some formats turn SOME people off. Short copy/long copy, multi-page options, VSL's etc, all turn SOME people off.

              As long as your target audience buys from a particular format, it's right. There's no right and wrong, there's what works based on testing.


              . Of course there are some honest long ads but the one that aren't have ruined it for me and others. Like it or not, that is reality.
              Dishonesty is something entirely different from copy format. Dishonesty , misleading, erroneous copy is wrong irrelevent of the format it's provided in.

              You can't meld two entirely different subjects and then find negatives based on a different element to the one being replied to.

              I didn't cover anything other than the OP's feeling long copy wasn't an optimal sales tool.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Emanuels
    Long sales pages, makes me tired. That is why I don't buy.
    What I learned in school.

    Attention
    Interest
    Desire
    Action

    Attention:Grab attention by something funny.
    Interest: Show me cool video.
    Desire: Give it an awesome prices and reason to buy.
    Action: Opt-in or buy now buttom.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      That's how spammers and scammers justify their methods too. "But it works" (sometimes/on some people) doesn't mean it's good...
      Disingenuous comment, designed to take advantage of the principle that two things mentioned near each other in a list are assumed to be similar. More heat than light.

      What you've really said here is not much more than, "I don't like it, so it's bad." A common assertion among marketers.

      Spammers and scammers are demonstrably harmful by nature. That is an objective fact.

      Your preference for/against a specific style of advertising has nothing to do with the value of the product or the honesty of the seller. As a preference, it's valid. As a measure of external reality, it has no meaning.
      While there may be desperate and stupid people willing to buy anything from anybody, I'm not one of them.
      Did you actually intend to suggest that anyone who has a different preference than you is desperate and stupid?


      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

      Here it is: your typical user (and potential customer) *** HATES *** these ads. I think some sharp hustler dreamed this format up and all of you have been copying it ever since.
      How do you know who my typical user is Fritz? :confused:

      Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

      You mad?
      Joseph is not only mad, but he's a bit insane too. That is why I definitely needed him on my friends list.

      Originally Posted by MKCookins View Post

      Anyone with experience in internet marketing knows users have a very short attention span on the internet! This is why first 3 seconds when someone comes to your site is crucial!
      And this is why the headline on your very long sales letter is so important.

      Originally Posted by iMBg View Post

      Buying BREAD is not falling for silly marketing, buying "how to get rich on the internet" probably is.

      People *need* bread they don't need some get rich on the internet or how to stop going bald nonsense. I don't NEED whatever it is you sell and I wouldn't knowingly buy from people with a bad attitude either.
      I don't need bread. In fact my personal diet does much better when I avoid it. On the other hand, a lot of people do need to make their income via the internet (and why not get rich while you're at it?). And if I were an actress with borderline alopecia who wanted to do do commercials for the best shampoo on the market, I suppose I would most certainly NEED something to stop going bald.

      Do we stop selling things just because you don't need them?
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Just was a part of a launch that did over $1million T/O.

    LONG COPY, so long it made me wince.

    Why is it done -- because it works.

    There's a lot of new folks to the internet every day.

    If you don't think multi-million dollar marketers split test, multi-page, single page, VSL's vs copy , and permuatations of all of the aforementioned, you're mistaken.

    The testing process on this launch lasted longer than the launch and we bought a lot of traffic to test it at a cost of over $30k.

    I'm so turned off by long copy now, my day simply doesn't include the available time to wade through this tat, but if it's done well - it works.

    Don't expect to see the end of it any day soon.
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    • Profile picture of the author fritzb43
      Originally Posted by Midas3 Consulting View Post

      Just was a part of a launch that did over $1million T/O.

      LONG COPY, so long it made me wince.

      Why is it done -- because it works.

      There's a lot of new folks to the internet every day.

      If you don't think multi-million dollar marketers split test, multi-page, single page, VSL's vs copy , and permuatations of all of the aforementioned, you're mistaken.

      The testing process on this launch lasted longer than the launch and we bought a lot of traffic to test it at a cost of over $30k.

      I'm so turned off by long copy now, my day simply doesn't include the available time to wade through this tat, but if it's done well - it works.

      Don't expect to see the end of it any day soon.
      I understand. Thanks, I was afraid I'd get a story like yours. And while I can't argue with success, I'll bet that for every story like yours, there are fifty failures who just plain went about it all wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by fritzb43 View Post

        I understand. Thanks, I was afraid I'd get a story like yours. And while I can't argue with success, I'll bet that for every story like yours, there are fifty failures who just plain went about it all wrong.
        Just a small caveat. I've never sold any make money online product before, not even as an affiliate.

        I think everyone has some good points. I'm of the opinion that it's the actual words that do the selling, not the length, I also believe that's very dependent on the market and as Midas mentioned, 30k of testing later and you have to go with what produced the results.

        I have preferences to what I like but I just don't think or trust myself to vouch for the sizeable majority that might buy from me.

        I've also seen a lot of people in the past mention how important it is to have long copy, which is only half of it. If it's crap, it's a waste. I can see Fritzs point and a lot of others here and I don't like ice cream cones on any copy (:p).

        As a side note and this is no attack at OTO's either (which means it is or I wouldn't have had to say that) but one trend I have seen for a while is the blisteringly promising sales letter where I'm buying a wonderful stand alone product and I'll never need to buy another product again and the person selling the product is on first name terms with God etc....then I buy it and get a "You'll never see this offer again" headline where I have another sales letter but at the bottom, if I decide not to buy the upsell it has a link saying something like "I'm a total nob with no brain and I absolutely want to die skint and starving in a gutter rather than buy the upsell."

        Sorry but that's obviously a minor exaggeration but the point is, I just bought something and now the marketer, because I've clicked the "I'm a nob" link, has made me think he, or she, is now a nob too.

        Having said that, I'm sure it's been tested and it's just something I don't like.

        ...and it's bugger all to do with long copy anyway .
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    Anyone else see the irony in this thread? So much hyperbole to rail against the hyperbole.

    Long copy marketers, take note: OP does not like what you do. Actually, scratch that. He hates what you do. Wait, that's not quite right. He has no idea what you do, but he hates how you do it, and he will never be a customer. Wait, he might buy something from you, but only if you stop using your preferred sales tactics.

    Got it? Good. Carry on.

    Signature
    Fifteen Lessons I have learned over 15 years and six businesses (or, My 1000th-Post Manifesto)
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  • Profile picture of the author GoldTrader
    Well, how can anyone argue about those long sales letters and God forbid I have an inbox full of it daily and never signed up for anything. I can understand where that gentlement is coming from. I'll agree a lot of those sales pages and endless cash suckings funnels, I gave up long ago on that front lol

    Just because something isn't to your liking doesn't meant it's to everyone's distaste also. Yeah, it's annoying but either get in or get out. It's a really vicious industry this IM stuff. Now, I just enjoy selling and buying gold, sure it's not all the money being flashed around here but it's something and I enjoy what I do and I never took a loss since, eveyrthing I do now, no matter what, is profitable.

    Understand though, that some people are really aching for money and will use desperate measures, maybe put yourself in their shoes? Maybe you're doing very well?

    Like Indian Larry said when alive... "Do what you love, the money will come"... Some take it a bit too far though.

    Hope this helped a FEW!

    -GoldTrader
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    The discussion turned heated due to the implication that because *I* don't like it, it is stupid and if you had half a brain you would see that.

    The art of diplomacy was abandoned in post #1. Which is perfectly ok. OP had a point to make. Just don't bring a stick to a swordfight, then complain that the guy with the sword is being mean.
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  • Profile picture of the author casusdalgade
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author GrowTutor
      Originally Posted by casusdalgade View Post

      The guy who needs chemotherapy isn't going to care about the color of the container the drug comes in.
      He might care if the chemotherapy bottle contains herbal viagra instead...
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by casusdalgade View Post

      The guy who needs chemotherapy isn't going to care about the color of the container the drug comes in.
      Sorry, you've lost me. :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    "You can be a victim or you can be rich, but you can’t be both. Listen up! Every time, and I mean every time, you blame, justify, or complain, you are slitting your financial throat."
    ~ T. Harv Eker
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    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author Walt Serdville
    OP expresses my thoughts exactly.. these sales letters we still see daily.. with soooo much overselling.. are so trash. Easy competition. I target them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve B
      Fritz,

      Of course you understand that you have written an "open letter" about yourself. Not only have you joined a forum for Internet marketers, but you have pontificated your points verbosely.

      Steve
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      Steve Browne, online business strategies, tips, guidance, and resources
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    yaa you'll get used to all the hype that's out there. People who try to sell on hype though always end up hungry
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

      ...or buying some chips?
      Or drinking airplane nips...
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      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        Or drinking airplane nips...
        Could even be having the snip.
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        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author wesawu
    I almost clicked the back button reading your lengthy and blah blah post!
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  • Profile picture of the author garyisonline
    A) If the ad came in an email about this "super duper product" that says anything about "my friend just launched (blah blah)" in plain text skinny to the left, I unsubscribe then delete.

    B) If similar hype-crap emails follow from even more of the product originator's "friends" (translate JVs), I unsubscribe from all of them, delete their RSS feed from my reader and shut down my unique email address <-- that I originally used to sign up for the very first POS that sold my email address. One very big one that did this too me had M and C in the name who is a major A-cavern.

    C) If I actually land on a 10-mile squeeze page on purpose in one of my drunken stupors, I control-F then $ to fast foward to the price. If there isn't one, I close the tab and get back to work.

    That's how I deal with 'em.
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  • Profile picture of the author johndetlefs
    Personally I don't like long form sales letters and it's rare that I purchase anything from them. I don't like having to watch a long video either though.. and if forced to I'll click that little marker as quickly as the video will load so that I can get to the end and see the price.

    Or I'll dig into the source code to find the pop up url and go through to the payment page direct.

    I prefer short and sweet with the option to go into more detailed if I so wish. But I'm also a student of marketing, and have become pretty jaded.

    But, that's a very specific set of wants that I have, and if every marketer catered to me then their sales would likely fall.

    @Growtutor, Fritz & ImGB: is it not possible that you're a little jaded too because you're now in the IM industry and get to see a lot of newbies throwing those sales pages around when you know they're selling crap?

    If so, then I'd suggest it's not the sales method that really irks you, it's the basis of the sale itself, where a shoddy product is being sold as if it's the real thing.

    However, if the product is great, and the seller uses a method that they've tested and know converts really well, why should that be a problem just because you're not a fan?

    That'd be like me saying "I don't like longform letters, they look scammy, I don't like videos, they waste my time, so all sales letters have to be short and to the point, with extensive FAQs" just because that's my personal preference.

    Out in the 'real' world, long form sales letters still work I guess. I don't use them myself, but people I trust do, and have tested the bujeezus out of all different sorts of pages and, depending on the products, have declared them the winner.

    I still don't like them, but ultimately the numbers rarely lie, so who cares what I think? In fact, in the face of the numbers, who cares what anyone thinks? Sales is not an aesthetic game!

    Even pro marketers are very careful not to do what they "think" but to force themselves to analyse the numbers.

    I think you're throwing the "sales page" baby out with the "scammer/spammer" bath water.
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    Everyone else also gets just one crack at it - help make theirs awesome too... or, politely step out of their way.

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Controversial OP + absent poster = probable troll.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Well, I have a tendency to look for the positive in everything and although it hurt to a degree, I'm glad I read through this whole thing.

      I have discovered who I would never take on as a client and am reminded of why I'm so glad to have graduated junior high and high school!

      Paul,

      Way to send the troll back under the bridge from whence it came.

      Terra
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