Am I Being A Mrs Wombat Or Do I Have A Point Here?

149 replies
Okay, something has been bugging me a long time and I just have to ask
because it's driving me crazy. I'm open to any criticisms that anybody has
on my feelings on this as I'm trying to now live by Paul Myers latest thread
on listening to feedback.

I'm sure you see it too...the thread titles with horrible grammar and questions
inside that are just as horribly worded.

This problem, I also see in emails sent to me from marketers who are trying
to sell me something.

Now I know, I should just look at the content of the message and decide if
I think it can help me or not.

But I can't do it. To me, if a person can't use proper grammar (and I'm
not talking about an occasional slip up) then they lose all credibility with
me.

Here is where I am going with this, so hang in there.

I consider myself an average person. Therefore, if I feel this way, is it not
safe to assume that maybe the majority of people feel this way?

Point is, if my assumption is correct (and I'm not saying it is) isn't using
poor grammar going to ultimately hurt your business?

For the poorly worded thread titles...won't most people ignore them?

For the poorly worded emails...won't most people stop reading?

For the poorly worded sales pages...won't most people stop reading?

Now I know, what's "bad grammar" to one person may be acceptable to
another. In other words, if I see one or two blatantly obvious mistakes
that show me that this person has little command over the English
language, I'm just going to stop reading...period.

Others, however, might have a higher threshold for pain. Maybe a couple,
or even a few mistakes, won't turn them off.

My ultimate question is, at what point are we being a Mrs. Wombat and
at what point are we being reasonable in our expectations.

I don't want to consider myself an elitist in this matter, but if I'm being
one, let me have it. I can take it.

But some of the stuff I see at this forum makes me want to cringe.
#mrs #point #wombat
  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
    I so agree. The occasional slip up is acceptable, but some of the stuff I see really puts doubts in my mind. It may not reflect on the marketer's knowledge, but to me seeing sloppy grammar makes me wonder about the care taken in any work done by that person.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    In other words, if I see one or two blatantly obvious mistakes
    that show me that this person has little command over the English
    language, I'm just going to stop reading...period.
    Food for thought: Some folks on this forum have little command over the English language because it's their second (or third... or fourth...) language.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      Food for thought: Some folks on this forum have little command over the English language because it's their second (or third... or fourth...) language.

      Cheers,
      Becky
      Becky, I, more than anybody (having come from an urban community)
      understand that. But unfortunately, we live in an English based world and
      we expect, right or wrong, people to have a decent command of the
      English language.

      My wife is a school teacher in an urban school and she cringes everyday
      at some of the grammar she has to endure. The excuses given?

      It's how they were brought up.

      Maybe, but the majority (again, I'm guessing here) don't care how you
      were brought up or where you came from. They're going to judge you on
      their expectations.

      Not fair?

      Maybe. But that is, I think anyway, the reality.

      That's what I'm trying to get at here.

      Is that the reality or are people more tolerant than I think?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      Food for thought: Some folks on this forum have little command over the English language because it's their second (or third... or fourth...) language.

      Cheers,
      Becky
      Becky

      Some of the worst grammar I've seen here is not from those who have English as a second language. The shocking ones tend to be from Americans, ones whose surnames lead me to believe their first language should be English.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
    Here's my take on this grammer and spelling issue:

    If you've fallen over a cliff and managed to grab a root to stop you plunging to your death, but the root is slowly pulling out of the cliff face. Would you:

    1) Take the hand of an ugly man with broken teeth and smelly breath who has leaned over the edge and offered to pull you to safety?

    Or...

    2) Wait for the handsom, elegantly dressed man with a powerful body who is standing with his hands folded and giving you a lecture on the perils of walking too close to the edge of a cliff?

    IMO - as long as the information is good I don't care how bad the person's spelling and grammar is
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    • Profile picture of the author WareTime
      Originally Posted by Colin Evans View Post

      Here's my take on this grammer and spelling issue:

      If you've fallen over a cliff and managed to grab a root to stop you plunging to your death, but the root is slowly pulling out of the cliff face. Would you:

      1) Take the hand of an ugly man with broken teeth and smelly breath who has leaned over the edge and offered to pull you to safety?

      Or...

      2) Wait for the handsom, elegantly dressed man with a powerful body who is standing with his hands folded and giving you a lecture on the perils of walking too close to the edge of a cliff?

      IMO - as long as the information is good I don't care how bad the person's spelling and grammar is
      Collin, I disagree 100% This is not a valid comparison. Hanging from the root is a life or death situation. Buying a product off a website is not. I've got time to comparison shop, think about what I'm doing, question whether or not I really have the money to spend, any number of things.

      The fact is, sites with poor grammar and spelling rank lower on my credibility meter and likely on other's as well. Now, if your market is those that wouldn't know spelling and grammar if it bit them in the ass, well, then it probably doesn't matter for that market.

      There is a promo just this morning that is being pitched that has mistakes on the long page. One above the fold. Why not just just put a click away button right there taking them back to google so they can find a site that doesn't look amateurish and does look trustworthy. That would be serving the customer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eliza. N
      Originally Posted by Colin Evans View Post

      Here's my take on this grammer and spelling issue:

      If you've fallen over a cliff and managed to grab a root to stop you plunging to your death, but the root is slowly pulling out of the cliff face. Would you:

      1) Take the hand of an ugly man with broken teeth and smelly breath who has leaned over the edge and offered to pull you to safety?

      Or...

      2) Wait for the handsom, elegantly dressed man with a powerful body who is standing with his hands folded and giving you a lecture on the perils of walking too close to the edge of a cliff?

      IMO - as long as the information is good I don't care how bad the person's spelling and grammar is
      I'd be tempted to wait for 2).

      Kidding...Excellent analogy. Plus some people are dyslexic and for the sake of a forum post may not have time to spell check etc.

      For a website, however, I think good grammer and spelling are paramount.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        For a website, however, I think good grammer and spelling are paramount.
        "Grammar."

        If you're going to wombat, dammit, get it right!


        Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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      • Profile picture of the author LynnM
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        The idea of "loose weight" out in the wild is, quite frankly, frightening! Far too much of it seems to have ended up at my house.
        Ah, so that's where it's come from!

        Lynn
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        That one drives me up the wall, too. The idea of "loose weight" out in the wild is, quite frankly, frightening!
        Exactly! When we all know it should be written "looze"

        Actually, I find the English language is one of the worst for spelling, because there are no set rules. Look at words like "through" and "rough". Why is it "ewe" in one and "uff" in the other. After moving to Canada, it took me years to understand spelling. In German, it's written as it sounds.
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        Kevin Riley, long-time Warrior living in Osaka, Japan

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        • Profile picture of the author LynnM
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post


          Actually, I find the English language is one of the worst for spelling, because there are no set rules.
          As this demonstrates! English is Tough Stuff
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author WareTime
      Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

      I hope that using poor grammar is ultimately going to hurt people's businesses and that there'll be some sort of "evolutionary process" in play with the eventual survival of the most grammatical. But I'm not at all confident, to be honest.
      Alexa, I hope so too. Unfortunately the US keeps passing laws keeping the dullards safe and from their stupidity culling them from the herd. I put helmet laws, seat belts and other laws where generally if you disobey them, your only adding more risk to your own life in that category.

      I also think people should have the freedom to add more risk to their lives, providing they aren't risking others lives with that action. Let the stupid extricate themselves from the gene pool.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Christa_Regalado
          Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

          Poor grammar is not necessarily the mark of lower intelligence, people. There are a lot of very intelligent people who can't keep track of all the nitpicky rules found in the English language.

          Tina G
          I agree. Even the best writers employ editors to check their work before it gets published.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mary Green
        Lol, this is hillarious. I dont know what a Mrs. Wombat is, but that isn't the point here. I have read a lot of ebooks from this site that are great for all sorts of topics. Basically I'm talking about those I find from wso's. When I first started reading them I was annoyed at how many errors there were. I mean don't people take any pride in their work? Then. as I kept reading I decided that if the work was good, I didn't care if it had a few mistakes.

        On the other hand, I get particularly annoyed at any professional site that has mistakes. I think people should take the time to invest in an editor or, they should at the very least, reread their content before they post it.

        Either way I try to finish reading what I start, even when it is horrible english, or unprofessional, so that I can get a full impression. After that I just avoid reading things that are too frustrating, but yes, a few mistakes I can deal with.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mary!
          I dont know what a Mrs. Wombat is
          I am shocked, stunned and dismayed. Not to mention mildly surprised.

          The Wombat Report


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeGriffith
          I don't think you is really sincere. You couldn't be. I think you started this thread just to get lots of comments and liven up the forum. (Notice the bad grammar in that first sentence?).
          But have a great day anyway!!
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          • Profile picture of the author jcaviani
            To me, the issue is less about grammar and more about mediocrity in general. Writing is just one place where the plague of mediocrity manifests itself - especially in places where the written word is the medium.

            People seem to be satisfied with sloppy and then find endless ways to rationalize their lack of skill. Instead of wasting precious time rationalizing or acting like you've invented something so powerful the whole civilized world must now genuflect in your presence, why not spend the time making yourself better?

            Wow, did I just say look in the mirror and tell yourself you're a shitty writer? Isn't everyone a great writer? Shouldn't everyone feel good about themselves? It must be someone else's fault!

            The aforementioned themes are the ones running through our society like the swine flu (oops, H1N1 - can't inflame the pork Gods) out of control, but somehow people think rationalization will defeat mediocrity. Sorry, Gohmer, only hard work will accomplish that task.

            Maybe my homies will call my hubcap simple, but I just like to shizzle bizzle and shit.

            (There is a skill of assembly (tension and release) that transcends words - it's that way in music as well. Some elements just don't go together no matter how hard people try to make it so)
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    Speak to your customers.

    Remember the grant CPA site (Chedda's Blog, I think)? It no doubt worked because it was talking to the individuals whom it was targeting.

    Yes, I agree that you should check your spelling and use correct grammar. But sometimes the situation calls for breaking rules.

    Sentence fragments, for example.

    Short attention spans and low average reading comprehension often dictate more concise writing at the cost of proper grammar.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Steven,

    Language evolves, grammar is applied in
    different ways depending upon the context
    in which it is used.

    The Warrior Forum obtains its members from
    around the world.

    There are multiple cultures, languages and
    educational backgrounds, let alone all the
    other differences.

    The forum's diversity is one of its greatest
    strengths.

    In a discussion it is likely that you will use a
    different style of conversation than the style
    that you would use in a formal setting.

    Thread titles and the contents of posts are
    often created on the fly, it's unlikely that
    any proof reading is done.. they are posted
    in the moment.

    Product creation is a completely different
    context and it would be unfair to evaluate
    the potential worth of a product purely
    based on the impression created by a number
    of forum posts.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Steven,

      Language evolves, grammar is applied in
      different ways depending upon the context
      in which it is used.
      Aye, lang may yer lum reek.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Point is, if my assumption is correct (and I'm not saying it is) isn't using
        poor grammar going to ultimately hurt your business?
        Hey bro. I aggree with u.



        .
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeGriffith
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Steven,

      Language evolves, grammar is applied in
      different ways depending upon the context
      in which it is used.

      The Warrior Forum obtains its members from
      around the world.

      There are multiple cultures, languages and
      educational backgrounds, let alone all the
      other differences.

      The forum's diversity is one of its greatest
      strengths.

      In a discussion it is likely that you will use a
      different style of conversation than the style
      that you would use in a formal setting.

      Thread titles and the contents of posts are
      often created on the fly, it's unlikely that
      any proof reading is done.. they are posted
      in the moment.

      Product creation is a completely different
      context and it would be unfair to evaluate
      the potential worth of a product purely
      based on the impression created by a number
      of forum posts.

      John
      John,
      You are so right. This forum is multi-cultural and we are dealing with people from around the world. People with different ways of expressing themselves, and even different ways of spelling. (is it "program" or "programme?")

      I don't really care about a person's sentence structure or their spelling skills if they are giving me information that could, for instance, help me become a millionaire.

      After all, there are millionaires who can't spell forem--forim--foram--well whatever. My point is, what difference does it make? We weren't all born with a silver dictionary in our mouths. And for those who were, "kudos to you."

      I think building relationships, friendships and business success....and sharing helpful information is what this forum is all about.

      I could be wrong... but have a great day anyway!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail Sober
    There are much more important things in life to worry about than minor grammar infractions. (as long as it doesn't look like it was written by a 5th grader)

    If I'm buying a book on grammar and punctuation, then I care.
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  • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
    Steven...

    Please do not be offended by what I have to say.

    I think you have more time than normal to bother about these things and it in turn is hurting you... Let me explain.

    These days I rarely spend time on the main discussion forum. And I read posts on threads started by a very small group of people, expecting to draw some useful conclusions out of it. Or at least find something useful. But that's not happened today in this post.

    By making this post you are proving to the world how much you believe in and live by the conventional code.

    And doing that you have just alienated a HUGE population of the planet.

    While I agree I won't like to read poor grammar that reflects carelessness on the writers' part, I won't stop reading your emails etc. unless I feel I am just wasting my time reading them and not getting any value out of it.

    Being pro English is good, but being anti-rest is bad. And who told you an Indian with poor English can not afford your $ 2k coaching program?

    -Lakshay
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    • Profile picture of the author MarkWrites
      Language is all about communication. The better one writes, the better they can communicate their message to the reader. When spelling errors and grammatical issues become a distraction from the message, the ability to communicate that message is downgraded.

      I find myself much more forgiving when the errors are because someone is trying to communicate in a language that is not native to them. I mean, if I tried to communicate in Chinese or Arabic, my efforts would be laughable.

      I do think it is fairly easy to tell though when someone is just not knowledgeable or is lazy in their writing efforts. Both of those faults lead me to not put much credence in what is being said or in fact not read it at all. It doesn't negatively affect my day, I just move on to the next post or message and the person writing that way just lost an opportunity to communicate with me. If that is okay with them... it is okay with me too.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Steven,

    You write for a living.

    Your wife is a school teacher.

    You are anything BUT the average person when it comes to things like proper grammar

    But I digress...

    Personally, if it is something that is ultimately horrible all the way through a sales letter or post, I tend to move on without a second look. But other than that, I simply consider it "different" to how I would write.

    At the end of the day, I don't know HOW it would affect conversions (if it was a sales letter). I suspect it depends on whether your customer base has a good command of the language or a fourth grade command. And if you resonate with them.

    I have not tested this though...

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      Steven,

      You write for a living.

      Your wife is a school teacher.

      You are anything BUT the average person when it comes to things like proper grammar

      But I digress...

      Personally, if it is something that is ultimately horrible all the way through a sales letter or post, I tend to move on without a second look. But other than that, I simply consider it "different" to how I would write.

      At the end of the day, I don't know HOW it would affect conversions (if it was a sales letter). I suspect it depends on whether your customer base has a good command of the language or a fourth grade command. And if you resonate with them.

      I have not tested this though...

      Mike
      Wait a minute. You're stuff is full of horrible grammatical errors and spelling. Oh sorry, that's a different Mike. Forget I said anything. (Quietly walks off whistling and pretending he saw something very interesting across the room).
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      • Profile picture of the author halfpoint
        Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

        Wait a minute. You're stuff is full of horrible grammatical errors and spelling.
        So is yours.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          You don't need good English to sell. The question is, do you need good English to sell more.

          Time for a split test from Mr Taylor.

          Salespage A - bad English

          Salespage B - perfect English

          If A outsells B what are we going to do?

          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            Time for a split test from Mr Taylor.

            Salespage A - bad English

            Salespage B - perfect English
            I once tried to write sales copy in bad English and it
            came out as Pennsylvanian, it was an Erie experience. :p

            John
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

              I once tried to write sales copy in bad English and it
              came out as Pennsylvanian, it was an Erie experience. :p

              John
              Harvey Segal has hacked John Taylor's WF account!

              Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              John,
              I once tried to write sales copy in bad English and it came out as Pennsylvanian, it was an Erie experience.
              Ummm... Has it been that long since I mentioned that I'm originally from New York, and not Pennsylvania?

              Still, that was sufficiently clever that I'm tempted to believe Harvey has, indeed, hijacked your WF account...


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                Paul,

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                sufficiently clever
                I thought this thread was about grammar and not cleverness?

                John
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  John,
                  I thought this thread was about grammar and not cleverness?
                  When they let you and MacRiley in, I got kornfewzedd.


                  Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author The Great Gordino
            I remember having a massive argument once, with a site that paid for content.
            It was insisting I was making mistakes with my grammar, and I was insisting that I wasn't.

            It was the issue that Bev mentioned - they eventually said they insisted on American English, but getting them to admit it got me some serious abuse!

            As to Steven's point, here's the analogy that sprang to my mind - Bill Clinton.
            He lied.
            About doing naughty things with an intern.

            Does him lying about that thing mean he was unable to be President, as it was unrelated to , say, him pressing the nuclear button?

            Ah, but *was* it unrelated? If he was happy to lie, and blatantly too, about one thing, it's safe to assume he was prepared to lie about anything.

            So, can we assume that someone trying to sell us things using bad English is selling us something of dubious quality? Not necessarily, but in the crowded market, it certainly doesn't help!

            Or, is it worse when big guru list owners all send out the same copy and paste email about their 'mate giving them a sneak preview', however good the english may be?
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
        Hey Steven,

        I grew up with a Mom that was a stickler for correct grammar and spelling and she never let us get away with it.....

        As a result often my eyes are drawn to obvious spelling errors etc...

        However, I have to admit that things are changing fast, what with language being affected by email/short messaging services/cellphones and the like. Even the spoken language that my children use is evolving....

        I have some ideas for some PC game sites but the thing that scares me the most is that the language I'll use for the sales page etc is too stiff/old....Perhaps I should get my son to write the content.

        The internet has caused the international business 'barriers to entry' to disappear as well....

        Times-a-changin' and one needs to be flexible and adapt appropriately....

        Regards

        Greg
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    • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      Personally, if it is something that is ultimately horrible all the way through a sales letter or post, I tend to move on without a second look. But other than that, I simply consider it "different" to how I would write.
      Same here.. unless it's painfully unreadable (and unfortunately I've seen that quite a bit here, on other forums, and occasionally in "sales copy") I usually don't let it bother me too much.

      On the other hand, if I've read something twice and I still don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say I'll probably save myself the headache and just ignore it.. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author NetOpps2
    Yes, I agree.

    The standard of English in the general population, particularity the young, has fallen drastically.

    A simple guide to English grammar and correct usage would probably do very well in digital form if it was written in an accessible way by a knowledgeable author.

    Then again, grammar and punctuation seem to have become optional extras for the masses, so perhaps I am mistaken. The possessive form is disappearing quickly from sales copy and marketing literature, for example.

    That didn't help much at all, did it?

    Kind regards,
    NetOpps2.
    PS I continue to write all my "stuff" in standard British English (BrE) despite the fact that American English (AmE) is the de facto standard now, so I am swimming against the tide myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    One problem is that British English and American English are different. I was talking to Tiff one day, and she said about one of her pet hates in ebooks. I said, "I always do that, because that is correct in the UK." I had no idea that it was different in the US, and not a single person had ever pointed it out to us.

    Sometimes, the errors are not errors at all, just a different country doing things differently.

    I always write my own books in British English, so we will have words like, flavour, favourite etc is it wrong, that's the way to spell these words.

    Check or Cheque, for a Brit the word Check doesn't mean something you write to pay a bill.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      One problem is that British English and American English are different. I was talking to Tiff one day, and she said about one of her pet hates in ebooks. I said, "I always do that, because that is correct in the UK." I had no idea that it was different in the US, and not a single person had ever pointed it out to us.

      Sometimes, the errors are not errors at all, just a different country doing things differently.

      I always write my own books in British English, so we will have words like, flavour, favourite etc is it wrong, that's the way to spell these words.

      Check or Cheque, for a Brit the word Check doesn't mean something you write to pay a bill.
      Actually this is true for Canadians too, and many people don't realize it. (I guess because we are under "british rule"?)

      But we are taught in school the correct spelling of colour is NOT (the US version) color... which is standard in html LOL (Eesh - imagine how we have fun with this one!)

      And then there's "zee" verses "zed" (speaking wise...)
      and yes, cheque vs. check...

      and SO many more.

      I was always great at English/Grammar/Spelling in school but I learned a few things online:

      1) yes, the world looks (now) at mostly US english.. heck, even MS Office, even buying a Canadian version, automatically defaults to US English...

      2) I can't remember which sales letter 'guru' talked about it (Yanik or Joe Vitale maybe?) but people write the way they speak.... and often people find it *easier* to read and follow points and principles when they are written the same way as they would be spoken (conversational vs. "grammatically correct")

      Steven, I suppose it maybe determines just how extensive your thoughts of proper grammar are.

      I have spellcheck and grammar turned OFF in MS office because it drives me absolutely bonkers when I write LOL - (rarely get the spelling mistakes, but it flags grammar, even when it IS correct, or as someone else mentioned, INTENDED to have a short point, not a "full proper" sentence).

      My biggest pet peeve is punctuation and spelling.

      I can read any novel and find spelling errors, it drives my husband nuts...

      but there's something I learned to remember when I read things, as has slightly been mentioned here...

      With people who have English as their second, third or fourth language, maybe you haven't realized this too:

      Some words just AREN'T in their original language.

      There was an interesting video a friend sent me yesterday... it shows in there how much the english language has grown... (Video is a "did you know?" )

      There are 540,000 words in the English language... 5 times the number since Shakespeare.

      English is my husband's fourth language (Dutch #1, Suriname Tongue/TakiTaki #2/3) - you'd never know it because he speaks fluent English with virtually no accent (Came to Canada when he was 12).

      BUT...

      He said one of the hardest things he had to learn was how many MORE words the English language uses just to say the same thing vs. other languages.

      So... if some people (I'm talking ones that don't have Eng. as their first language) skip a word or maybe don't sound "grammatically correct", perhaps this is why?

      My hubby has improved since I've been married to him (going on 19 yrs :p) but believe me, its taken a lot of time to even tweak some of his wording LOL! And to this day, spelling is his WORST, and when he does typing of any kind,
      a) he's very short/to the point/almost abrupt (and in complete sentences)
      b) he then gets me to edit

      Anyway.. sorry for rambling on... I agree - but I guess to what point do we expect perfection, when most aren't teachers or may have had less training?

      And lets face it - some people just have other strengths.. i..e, technical math/programming is my hubby's best strengths - but spelling NOT. Me - I'm the other way around.

      I do agree though, that if this is the issue for people, they should really consider having an editor if its intended to be more formal (like a sales letter).

      Just my 2 cents.

      Amber
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Wagoner
    If I stopped buying products based on the emails and sales letters I see, I wouldn't be buying much of anything at all.

    This includes some of the well known marketers, too. I've just learned to accept the fact there will be times when it will be used unknowingly, as well as intentionally.

    When I was growing up, bad grammar was some old lady that wouldn't give you candy.

    I don't give it too much thought if I believe I'm getting exactly what I'm paying for, and that's accurate information.

    It's much harder for me to overlook the vulgar language which some seem to believe will put them more in tune with "everyday people".

    Now that my friend, will make me think before purchasing. Why? Because if they use that type of language to promote their wares, you can bet it will be sprinkled lovingly throughout the product.

    But hey, that's just me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Asher
    Written English -- to be able to deliver it's original intent to
    the recipient is in itself an art form. And there aren't that
    many artists of the language.

    I know where you're coming from but even a person who
    has bad command of the written word doesn't mean that
    he has poor concepts of making money.

    Someone whose website Alexa ranking may not be within
    100,000 but is making way more money than one that is
    also exists.

    So... I personally never contend too much with how badly
    a person communicates - however, if it does get too bad,
    I'll just unsubscribe.

    My $0.02

    Asher
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    It only matters when Paul Myers is around..

    Not that he would actually have a problem with it (I think), but I do, only when he's around

    Peace

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author Joeez
    I can forgive awkward grammar or the occasional odd sentence structure, since I realize that the Internet is a world wide community which speaks many different languages. However, spelling mistakes strike me as laziness on the part of the writer.

    With all of the spell checkers available, it really only takes a second to check one's spelling when one is using a computer. If a person doesn't take that extra second to make sure their message is coherent, why should I take time to read what they are attempting to write?
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    Get real, unbiased Internet Marketing Reviews-If it stinks, I'll let you know.

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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      Food for thought: Some folks on this forum have little command over the English language because it's their second (or third... or fourth...) language.

      Cheers,
      Becky
      Becky, I know people for whom English is indeed a second or third language. And often their command (or at least usage) of grammar is better than my own because they were drilled in it when studying the language.

      It was the same when I studied German back in high school and later got the chance to speak with a native speaker of German. His everyday usage was far more casual than my memorized proper structures.

      When we switched to English, his grammar was better than mine, although he occasionally slipped in some odd sentence structures when he was translating in his head as he spoke...

      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      One problem is that British English and American English are different. I was talking to Tiff one day, and she said about one of her pet hates in ebooks. I said, "I always do that, because that is correct in the UK." I had no idea that it was different in the US, and not a single person had ever pointed it out to us.

      Sometimes, the errors are not errors at all, just a different country doing things differently.

      I always write my own books in British English, so we will have words like, flavour, favourite etc is it wrong, that's the way to spell these words.

      Check or Cheque, for a Brit the word Check doesn't mean something you write to pay a bill.
      Who was it that said the Americans and the Brits were two peoples separated by a common language?

      Steven, to address your original post, I tend to separate things like forum posts (done on the fly) from considered writing (products, sales letters, etc.).

      In casual writing, I have a much higher tolerance for typos and such. I do worry about the growing trend of reducing eveything to text-speak, though. It's one thing when you only have 20 or 30 characters and every letter requires several keystrokes. It's another thing when it's done out of laziness or habit.

      With considered writing, I don't worry about the occasional typo. When the mistakes become enough to distract me from the communication, I draw the line. I'm already making an effort to read the piece, and I shouldn't have to try to guess what the writer was trying to type.

      But usually, my inner Wombat doesn't rear its head until I try to read the newspaper. I drive my wife nuts muttering about nitwit writers and idiot editors and the demise of proofreading...
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    Hi, Mrs Wombat,

    You just keep wombatting away - there are far too few people who either care for or practice good grammar today.

    Educational institutions in the western world are suffering a surfeit of administrators and a deficit of educators to the extent that the final results of an educational session are based upon how well the teachers want to feel that they have done rather than on how well the pupils have done.

    While wild and inaccurate claims are accepted by the public at large as a reliable indicator of the quality of the product of our schools, we, the people, will seem more dumb by the day.
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Buckley
    I've had a reputation as a grammar and spelling "nazi" since pre-pubescence. I've grown more tolerant with age but only in that I will keep my chagrin over poor usage to myself. I'll "grin and bear it" now instead of leaping to correct others.

    I am not a college graduate and English was my least favorite subject in school. I still can't tell you what a "dangling participle" is. It sounds vaguely erotic to me.

    I attribute my own modest mastery of English to a lifelong, insatiable appetite for reading. Consequently, I assume that people who have less developed language skills don't read enough. If I suspect that they eschew reading, I'm unlikely to be interested in anything they write as I assume, correctly or not, that they can't possibly have any real depth of knowledge about their subject.

    As for those for whom English is not their "lingua mater", I make huge allowances as their English is usually far superior to my Hindi, Mandarin, Tagalog or whatever...but only when I am in THEIR country.
    Signature

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something." -Plato

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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Paul Buckley View Post

      I am not a college graduate and English was my least favorite subject in school. I still can't tell you what a "dangling participle" is. It sounds vaguely erotic to me.

      Paul, would it be forward of me to ask to see your dangling participle?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Buckley
        Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

        Paul, would it be forward of me to ask to see your dangling participle?
        Well, I don't know. Should I be blushing?
        Signature

        "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something." -Plato

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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
      Compared to the English grammar of 100 years ago the
      language we write and speak is a lot easier to understand -
      it has evolved.

      I like to get the grammar right myself - but what really
      matters is DO YOU MAKE YOURSELF UNDERSTOOD?

      If the language skills are poor and the thinking comes off
      as disorganized, that can't be good for business, can it?

      Some of us are (as writers) more aware of how others
      read and understand our stuff - hence things like the
      use of the hard-return in forum-posts so the reader's
      eye doesn't have to travel as far.

      In print, bad writing is often painful to read - but it
      doesn't always stop a writer from getting his or her
      point across. Dan Brown, mega-million-selling author,
      is a great example: his prose is hackneyed and
      lifeless, yet he has stories to tell and people like them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wade Watson
      As a long-time appreciator of the English language, I'm a wombat from way back. I often pass over questions on forums or Yahoo Answers simply because the writer would not or could not communicate clearly. In a business like ours, where clear written communication is central to what we do, it's absolutely essential to summon your best grammatical skills-- or at least use spell check.

      Yet, one of my favorite online marketers and a woman for whom I have great respect steadfastly refuses to use apostrophes. Every time I see a "dont" I want to correct it, but she's been very successful in spite of her grammatical handicap.

      Apparently, paragraph construction is not being considered here, though. I notice several posters, including Steve, like to begin an new paragraph for each sentence. I find this gets tiresome to the eye after awhile. I'm sure I'd have gotten a bad grade on an English paper for doing that in school. Maybe I missed the joke.

      Perhaps even we wombats need to reexamine our writing skills now and then.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Steven

      Woop de doo. Another grammar thread.

      You should know by now that it's almost pointless to insist on correct grammar in forum posts.

      Like blog posts, texts and tweets, they're informal channels of communication. If you were to continually correct someone in a bar or coffee shop conversation, for instance, it would come across as irritating at best.

      Let it go. Or, if it's so annoying, just ignore the thread.

      In a professional capacity, obviously writers needs to display competence in their craft. The key is to know your audience. And here's where I disagree with Bev.

      If a writer is predominantly communicating with the American market, it's just courtesy to use forms of language and spelling considered normal and correct in that market, as long as it doesn't detract from the essence of the message.

      I have no problem using American spellings and phraseology in webcopy or articles aimed at the US readership. And I would ensure that any salescopy aimed at that market conformed to their way of speaking.

      Writers working in the IM field are usually looking to elicit some kind of action (often monetary) from their readers. This is much easier to accomplish if their audience identifies and empathises with what is written.

      Fiction writers and academics may be able to afford a little more self indulgence.


      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by alexa_s View Post

          What Steven's talking about (and what I feel even more strongly about than he does) has absolutely nothing to do with whether people are using American spellings at all. It's about all the people who missed school the day the teacher explained the difference between "your" and "you're", and apparently neither know nor care that the singular pronoun "none" needs a singular form of conjugated verb rather than a plural one.
          I guess you missed the bit where I said I was referring to Bev's post :rolleyes:




          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Steven,

            There is nothing wombattish about exercising a personal preference. Mrs Wombat's ghost is invoked only when the person preaches about grammar at the expense of the message.

            There are a bunch of different issues here. The first is the simple typo. I don't pay any attention to those at all, personally. They don't matter. Nor do minor grammar quibbles that don't interfere with the message.

            Yes, there are the people who suggest that improper grammar or spelling mistakes are a sign of low intelligence. To those people, I offer this suggestion: Take a look at the flag you're waving around, announcing your own intelligence. It does not say what you think it says.

            There's the careless writer. The person who, in their own primary language, just can't be bothered. I pay attention to those issues only when it provides evidence of sloppy thinking, or when the message is so unclear that I can't extract their points without extensive questioning.

            Then there are the people for whom English is a second language.

            I don't speak or write in any other languages, so I have a lot of respect for people who make that effort. I don't expect them to get the grammar or idioms correct every time.

            However, if they expect to do business in a community in which English is the working language, the users of that forum should be able to find the meaning in what they say. We've had an absolute flood of people here lately, mostly from Malaysia and the Phillipines, whose posts are impossible to decipher, or nearly so.

            I'm sorry, but that's not useful or acceptable. It just pollutes the forum with what is, for all practical purposes, nonsense.


            Paul
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            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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            • Profile picture of the author Eliza. N
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


              There are a bunch of different issues here. The first is the simple typo. I don't pay any attention to those at all, personally. They don't matter. Nor do minor grammar quibbles that don't interfere with the message.

              Paul
              Looks like somebody has changed their mind
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Looks like somebody has changed their mind
                Not at all. I have a long history of snarking Wombat-wannabes.

                Don't take it personally. I could find much worse errors in some of the other wombattings in this thread. You just happened to hit one of my favorites. People who complain about grammar and spelling, and can't spell grammar.


                Paul
                Signature
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                Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                • Profile picture of the author Eliza. N
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Not at all. I have a long history of snarking Wombat-wannabes.

                  Don't take it personally. I could find much worse errors in some of the other wombattings in this thread. You just happened to hit one of my favorites. People who complain about grammar and spelling, and can't spell grammar.


                  Paul
                  I know, I'm only kidding ya.

                  Me? I'm sticking up for those that cannie spell on forums
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  • Profile picture of the author ASM Marketing
    Definitely agree with what you are saying Steve. I received an email only last week with this in it:

    "Your not a twitter genius? I bet you can be..."

    My reaction: Unsubscribe.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
    Wombats untie!

    If I could thank a post more than once, I'd definitely do it for your post, Steven.

    Curtis
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    Curtis Ng (blog) - Product Launch Manager
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    • Profile picture of the author dave830
      It's a flippin' spell checker.

      There are plenty of customers who are turned off by bad grammar, can someone explain why a marketer would NOT run their copy through one?

      Defiance? Laziness? It takes 10 seconds. I don't get it.

      Right or wrong, we're treated (to some extent) based on how we present ourselves. Or you can be that person who wears the ripped Pearl Jam t-shirt to a job interview and complain that you got judged by "The Man".
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      I don't have anything to offer, but have a great day anyway!

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Steven,

    Grammar is important where it is important, but not everywhere.

    Dangling participles and misaligned gerunds are found throughout classic American literature.

    Madison avenue used "street grammar" for a variety of products "Winstons taste good like a cigarette should" for a classic example.

    Mark Twain was always belittled because of his grammar.

    On the subject of grammar he stated:

    You may say a cat uses good grammar.

    Well, a cat does -- but you let a cat get excited once; you let a cat get to pulling fur with another cat on a shed, nights, and you'll hear grammar that will give you the lockjaw.

    Ignorant people think it's the noise which fighting cats make that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening grammar they use.


    Mark Twain also said: There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: when he can't afford it, and when he can.


    Mark Riddle
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    Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post


      You may say a cat uses good grammar.

      Well, a cat does -- but you let a cat get excited once; you let a cat get to pulling fur with another cat on a shed, nights, and you'll hear grammar that will give you the lockjaw.

      Ignorant people think it's the noise which fighting cats make that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening grammar they use.


      Mark Riddle

      ....priceless.....
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  • Profile picture of the author NetOpps2
    "They was great."

    This does not sound right, does it? Instinctively, you know this. It does not sound quite right to the ear. If you have a basic understanding of grammar, however, you would realise instantly that the subject does agree with its verb, and that therein lies the problem with the sentence (a unit of complete sense).

    Grammar is not about being picky per se. It is about communicating clearly. If there were no grammar "rules", we would invent them. Language needs a working structure or it would collapse into nothingness.

    Also, if I may, I would like to explain the difference between its and it`s; I see this same mistake being made over and over again. It is simple. "It`s" is a contraction, and it stands for "it is" or "it has" e.g. it`s my favourite (= it is my favourite).

    "Its", meanwhile, is a possessive determiner e.g. The cat was so cute; he stroked its (own) back. Again, it is simple.

    On the other point, British English is not that different to American, but it is significantly different in some aspects of spelling, usage and punctuation. See the Google article on British English vs. American English.

    For example, in American English ALL punctuation comes within quotation marks (.") but in British English it does not (".) So, a British student writing an essay or "paper" would be corrected on his punctuation in the US and vice versa for an American student in the UK.

    My tips are to to be aware of the differences and to be consistent in your own usage. Do not in any circumstances chop and change within an article, for instance. You will appear blatantly ignorant.

    Hope this helps.

    NetOpps2.
    The chap was right. The easiest way to learn "proper" English is to listen to well spoken English; similarly, the best way to learn to write well is to read well written books, articles, papers, etc. Patterns will very quickly be picked up.
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  • Profile picture of the author NetOpps2
    I did yes. The points still sound, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless.

    Be well,
    NetOpps2
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I did yes. The points still sound
      "Point's." Or "points are."

      If you're gonna wombat, dammit, get it right.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author MikeGriffith
      Yes, I do think you're being a Mrs. Womabat--whoever she is. Some of our best presidents have had to hire speech writers. Can you believe it?

      How in the world could someone become president of the greatest country on the planet--and fare so badly when it comes to spelling, grammar and sentence structure? Amazing!

      Listen...It's not that important.
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  • Profile picture of the author GuruGazette
    Spelling is a big peeve of mine yes, but grammar is not. "Proper" grammar as defined by the English teachers of the world is dry, boring, and does not sell products.

    I'd bet that the greatest sales letters would get low or failing grades from English teachers

    Good sales writing is conversational, and people do not talk to each other with "proper" grammar.

    Now if you're talking about simple common mistakes such as there/their/they're or its/it's and principal/principle then yes too many of those mistakes raises the eyebrows and makes you think twice about who you're dealing with.

    I have misc silly peeves too though. "Learnt" instead of "Learned" drives me nuts
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Hi Kathy

      Originally Posted by GuruGazette View Post

      I have misc silly peeves too though. "Learnt" instead of "Learned" drives me nuts
      Hehe. This is what I meant by "know your audience". In British English, "dreamt", "learnt", "spelt" and burnt" are correct usages.

      Come to think of it, why don't you say "meaned" :confused:



      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author GuruGazette
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Hi Kathy



        Hehe. This is what I meant by "know your audience". In British English, "dreamt", "learnt", "spelt" and burnt" are correct usages.

        Come to think of it, why don't you say "meaned" :confused:



        Frank
        Yep you're absolutely right and I'll be the first to admit I've had my times of mixing them up when writing for both sides of the pond at once

        I've noticed in the past few years that more and more Americans writing for Americans are using "learnt" and for some reason that really bugs me. Honestly can't say why though.

        My biggest weakness is punctuation... I usually use too much of it

        I also get dyslexic when tired and/or writing too fast... the joys of not having an editor hmmm?
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  • Profile picture of the author traces2757
    I knew this would probably cause controversy. I started a thread a few moons ago when I first started coming here about pretty much the same thing. The discussion got heated at certain points.

    I'm in agreement with you, Steven. I can certainly understand a few errors when people are struggling with the English language, and that is usually apparent when it's happening. However, a lot of the time what I'm seeing is simply a disregard for proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and word flow. One argument is "Hey, if they're offering me value, I don't care how badly something is written."

    Well, I do. Maybe that's snobby, I don't know; but my take on it is that when I see that somebody simply didn't care how their copy looks to the reader, then I'm inclined to think that they didn't care about other things.

    Let's take a popular product like the iPod, for example. It's all the rage; everyone wants one (Okay let's not argue about whether everyone wants one or not, I'm just making a point.) More than likely people would still want them even if some of the copy in the ads wasn't always spelled correctly, or there were grammar or punctuation mistakes, etc. Would as many people still want them, though? If you saw a magazine ad for an iPod that was sloppily written, wouldn't you be shocked? Would it not give you pause?

    When I see that someone took the time to make sure that their copy looks its best, it helps build my trust in this person. It's only a part of the trust-building process, of course, but an important one to me.

    Why should we think that just because copy or content is on the Internet that we shouldn't have to hold to the same standards as what we see in print or on television, etc.?

    I, for one, appreciate the effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Your ability to communicate your thoughts clearly will affect your reader's understanding. Yet is the effect measurable ?

    PS Grammar changes with the audience

    PPS Not all grammar rules are agreed upon

    PPPS Using PSS is not correct
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    Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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    • Profile picture of the author traces2757
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

      Your ability to communicate your thoughts clearly will affect your reader's understanding. Yet is the effect measurable ?

      PS Grammar changes with the audience

      PPS Not all grammar rules are agreed upon

      PPPS Using PSS is not correct
      Grammar can change according to the audience you're writing for or the point you're trying to get across. A good writer makes his or her readers feel comfortable with what they're reading. Even with different grammar rules for different audiences, however, there are still subtle standards that good writers adhere to in order to get their points across in the best way possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Yeah, you're being a wombat.

    Did it ever occur to you there are people who are learning english on the fly, and are doing the best they can to communicate with you?

    Just a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Err.. my sig is wroten in playn engerlish
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    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author InternetM39482
    It's your personal preference, but to me, grammatical errors don't matter a lot unless they make the writing;

    - hard to read and / or
    - conveys different meaning

    English is not my first language, and hence there are grammatical errors every now and then. But I try to put my message crystal clear.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Correct grammar, indeed, is one of the arts that are far more esteemed by schoolma'ams than by practical men, neck-deep in the heat and agony of the world.

    ~Henry Louis Mencken, The American Language
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  • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
    I generally agree with the OP regarding the subject of poorly written emails, promotional pieces and even audio and video clips.

    I know my writing isn't perfect at times and I do sometimes cringe myself after checking an email I had already sent.

    The main issue is that grammar is meant to be used appropriately to enable clear communication to take place.

    The "rules" of grammar exist, so that there is a fairly common agreed upon structure about how things are described, whether written or spoken about.

    Many people may not realise that this is what grammar is for. The most failing is that the way it is taught in schools is very poor and in many schools it isn't even taught at all.

    The subject really is rather simple once you understand the basics. Knowing grammar and how words are properly used enables you to both communicate with someone clearly, and to more easily understand what others are communicating to you.

    Standards in English and many other subjects are declining despite what governments will try to have us believe.

    I am continually amazed at just how many kids leave school and can't even write a simple letter or email correctly.

    Yes, words, spelling, language and grammar do change over the years, but that is not the same as being lazy or unwilling to communicate sensibly so that your communication is properly understood.

    Neither does this mean your writings or speech should be high-brow or pompous. That in itself can be a block to good communication.

    Use common sense, but make sure your message gets through clearly and distinctly and make your message interesting.

    Got it?
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidTheMavin
    Eh, they're newbs who haven't been flamed enough yet on the boards to know any different, or Engrish isn't their strong suit.
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  • Profile picture of the author NetOpps2
    "Point's." Or "points are."

    If you're gonna wombat, dammit, get it right.

    Paul

    The point is it should have read "The points still stand, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless, not "The points still sounds, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless."

    This was a typo, of course, and I accept that these can happen to the very best of us; that`s what proof-reading is for .

    It was an instant reply to an ill-disguised swipe at my perfectly reasonable stance for no good reason. You will notice that I had the manners not to cite any one individual in particular, while also providing some hopefully useful guidance between it`s and its.

    Kind regards,
    NetOpps2.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    how the hell did this tame little thread end up so long?
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author CWreports
    Steven,
    I've quoted the questions from your original post and in my opinion they are all unanswerable... by anyone. I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions. But you still won't have your questions answered.

    Why? Because one person can never know what 'most people' or a 'majority' will do in your stated situations. And based on my calculation using the current membership of 128,244 (I just checked) it would require 64,123 all voting yea or all voting nay to answer your question regarding how the 'majority' feels. Plus, I have no idea what number of members would serve as 'most people'. It could be anything over 50% or it could be 60%,75%, 80%. Maybe the majority could decide.

    Carol









    Am I Being A Mrs Wombat Or Do I Have A Point Here?

    I consider myself an average person. Therefore, if I feel this way, is it not
    safe to assume that maybe the majority of people feel this way?

    Point is, if my assumption is correct (and I'm not saying it is) isn't using
    poor grammar going to ultimately hurt your business?

    For the poorly worded thread titles...won't most people ignore them?

    For the poorly worded emails...won't most people stop reading?

    For the poorly worded sales pages...won't most people stop reading?
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I agree with the op. I am turned off by spelling and grammar errors. The site does not come off as professional to me and I normally won't buy. The way I look at it is everyone who puts up a site to sell to English speaking people should take the time to get it right. People who have no graphic skills often hire an artist to spruce up their pages. People who can't write professional copy should hire someone to clean it up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail Sober
    So, just wondering.

    How many of you that feel so strongly that you must have scholarly
    writing abilites to be successful convey that fact to your potential
    buyers on your IM niche sales pages?

    I do see a lot to the contrary however (and I've peeked at
    a few signatures in this thread)...

    "All you need is a computer, an internet connection"
    "Even if you flunked 8th grade English"
    etc..
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    • Profile picture of the author traces2757
      Originally Posted by Gail Sober View Post

      So, just wondering.

      How many of you that feel so strongly that you must have scholarly
      writing abilites to be successful convey that fact to your potential
      buyers on your IM niche sales pages?

      I do see a lot to the contrary however (and I've peeked at
      a few signatures in this thread)...

      "All you need is a computer, an internet connection"
      "Even if you flunked 8th grade English"
      etc..
      Nobody needs to have scholarly writing abilities to make good sales pages. They should simply get help with the look of their content if they aren't skilled in that area.

      I'm a decent writer but a lousy salesperson. I couldn't sell a running water hose to a rich man whose hair was on fire. So, no matter how correct all the spelling, grammar and punctuation on my website is, the sales copy is probably going to look crappy if I try to do it myself.

      I get help with the copy and make sure the writing looks good.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ricky Parker
        I just wanna know. WTF is a Mrs Wombat? Is it like a rusty trombone?
        Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author tamaradaria
    Because I enjoy writing, I'm often
    critical of errors and mistakes, but
    then I realize that I make mistakes
    myself, so who am I to judge.

    But, I won't read an email that's
    sent from someone who clearly doesn't
    care about what they were saying.

    You can tell the difference...like those
    crazy emails from "google" telling me
    that I've won a lottery I've never
    bought a ticket for.

    But, the first time I bought a New York
    Times Best Seller and there was an error
    in the copy...I chilled out.

    We are all human right? Mistakes
    are going to happen.

    On the other hand, if the grammar is
    really bad on the sales letter I won't
    buy the product.

    My first thought is if the copy full of
    errors, the e-book might be worse.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thaddaeus T. Hogg
    Dadgumit young feller, yew is one hunnert percent right 'bout some folk not bein able to spelt worth a durn! It jest don't bother me as much as yew.

    Not everone has a secund grade edumacation like ole hillbilly so I jest don't thank it be proper to thank badly of em!

    Truth is, jest bout anyfolk kin become mighty fine writers. Yew wudn't hardly believe it but my writen wusn't always this gud. I used to be purty bad but be a lookin at me now. I gets paid over ten dollers per sales copy now. Yew don't be a believin old Homer? Jest take a looksee at this here sales letter. But fore I be a showin yew the letter, let me jest tell you thut it will be a makin yew wanna be a gettin all froggy and jump right in an perchase my book. Well sir, it taint gonna happen cause it ain't fer sale any more. I dun took the sales links out an yew caint get it no way nor no how. Take a look at The Bestest Durn Sales Letter on the Face of This Hearin Eurth!"

    Now all yew folk who doesnt be a writin to good, jest keep a dreamin cause yew kin be nurly as good as old Bad Thad!
    Signature
    Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
    http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Thadpole,

      It's a very safe bet that few of the people here, other than your esteemed self and possibly Mr Louviere, have the artistic sensibilities to pull off that kind of thing as well as you just did.

      A lesson well worth larnin'!


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Thaddaeus T. Hogg
    Why thank yew Mister Myers... and didja be a noticin that I dun spelt yer name right unlike thut thar dummy Chris Sutton?

    I jest be a wantin yew to knowed thut yew is a mighty fine feller and yew cudda been my bestest pal iffin it twernt fer Miz Penelope!

    Ya'll be a havin a fine evenin, yew hear?
    Signature
    Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
    http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
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  • Profile picture of the author scattermouse
    Steven, you might be like me - I know that lots of people have English only as a second language, I know that anyone can make mistakes, I know that typos happen all the time...but somehow it doesn't matter. I hate seeing bad grammar/spelling, so when I do, I stop reading. Then again, maybe it's just my OCD...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Eliza,

      Where's my calendar?! A Wombat with a sense of humor? I am astounded, amazed and abashed. That's keeewwl!

      Scattermouse,
      Then again, maybe it's just my OCD...
      If you actually are OCD, that's a different thing entirely.

      I know a gentleman from one of the email lists I'm on who's an extremely high-functioning autistic. Very smart, and we get along quite well. We could not talk on the phone without me driving him off the deep edge, though. He has problems with the normal small pauses that people leave in sentences. I leave pauses that have people wondering if I've hung up. He'd be bonkers after 10 minutes.

      Like OCD, it's not a matter of being a know-it-all jerk. It's not voluntary at all. Just happens.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author LynnM
        While we're on the subject of spelling...why on earth do so many people nowadays spell the word "lose" as "loose"?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Lynn,
          why on earth do so many people nowadays spell the word "lose" as "loose"?
          Why does the Sun go on shining? Why does the sea rush to the shore? How many licks does it take to get to the chewy Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?

          Some answers are simply beyond the ken (or barbie, for the politically erect in the crowd) of mortal Man.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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          • Profile picture of the author LynnM
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            Some answers are simply beyond the ken (or barbie, for the politically erect in the crowd) of mortal Man.


            Paul
            Aw, nuts. Can I join the wombat club?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Lynn,
              Aw, nuts. Can I join the wombat club?
              Sure, but if you do, you'll never learn to write really cool answers like that. And you'll never get Thaddaeus T. Hogg's autograph.

              Choose wisely.


              Paul
              Signature
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              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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              • Profile picture of the author LynnM
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                you'll never get Thaddaeus T. Hogg's autograph.


                Paul
                I'm going to have to Google that now...
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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Some answers are simply beyond the ken (or barbie, for the politically erect in the crowd) of mortal Man.
            I'm personally offended by this misuse of my name to propagate a stereotype.

            The preferred term now is "beyond the paul."
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            • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
              Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

              I'm personally offended by this misuse of my name to propagate a stereotype.

              The preferred term now is "beyond the paul."
              Those are "strong" words
              Signature
              Kevin Riley, long-time Warrior living in Osaka, Japan

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          • Profile picture of the author traces2757
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Lynn,Why does the Sun go on shining? Why does the sea rush to the shore? How many licks does it take to get to the chewy Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?

            Some answers are simply beyond the ken (or barbie, for the politically erect in the crowd) of mortal Man.


            Paul
            Thanks for putting that song in my head, Paul. <grumble>
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Lynn,
              I'm going to have to Google that now...
              You don't know our own Hillbilly Marketer?? Shame, shame, shame!

              Ken,
              The preferred term now is "beyond the paul."
              Ummm... Clever, but wrong implication. Tsk. Amateurs...

              Tracy,
              Thanks for putting that song in my head, Paul. <grumble>
              Who do you think you're kidding. There is no Tootsie Roll song.


              Paul
              Signature
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              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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              • Profile picture of the author traces2757
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Tracy,Who do you think you're kidding. There is no Tootsie Roll song.Paul
                How does one post a gesture?
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Tracy,
                  How does one post a gesture?
                  /-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\


                  Paul

                  PS: That's kind of close. I signed a wave....
                  Signature
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                  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                  • Profile picture of the author traces2757
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Tracy,/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-_/-


                    Paul

                    PS: That's kind of close. I signed a wave....
                    <chuckle>

                    In the meantime, I can't understand, no I can't understand, why life goes on the way it does...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Tracy,
                      I can't understand, no I can't understand, why life goes on the way it does...
                      Is this where I switch from slapstick mode to Zen misfit?


                      Paul
                      Signature
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                      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                      • Profile picture of the author traces2757
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Tracy,Is this where I switch from slapstick mode to Zen misfit?


                        Paul
                        I'm fairly sure we should stop now before people start virtually throwing virtual tomatoes at us and Steven rues the day he ever started this thread.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Tracy,
                          I'm fairly sure we should stop now before people start virtually throwing virtual tomatoes at us
                          I had a page for that, but they took it down. [sigh]
                          and Steven rues the day he ever started this thread.
                          Too late.

                          Hey, it's offered some good comedic lessons. And there are jokes, too, which is always a bonus.


                          Paul
                          Signature
                          .
                          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                          • Profile picture of the author LibertyUnc
                            Personally, I don't mind occasional mistakes in the least.

                            As long as it is clear that the one writing is actually trying, and not just being horribly lazy, I'll keep reading.

                            What I stop reading is the junk english that the younger generations (and even a lot of people my age) use.

                            Wut r u Doin? Iz goin 2 d g4me. Iz it? Rulz!

                            Of course, if someone is writing a sales letter like that, they are either an idiot or I am not within their target audience. I don't really concern myself with which the case might be (or if maybe half the keys on their keyboard are broken and they are making do as best they can...), I just move on.

                            And, of course, there is no such thing as correct english outside the ivory tower of academics...and even there not everything is black and white. There was a time, not terribly far in the past, where the idea that words must be spelled in a particular way did not grip so many people. That, of course, was before our austrian based system of education was foisted upon us.

                            Language is for communication. If you are understood by your target audience, you are doing ok in my book. Maybe not great, but at least ok.

                            Ivory, Ivry, Ivery, I don't care.

                            There is a green rabbit.
                            There. A rabbit is. Green.
                            I'll pass.
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      • Profile picture of the author scattermouse
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Scattermouse,If you actually are OCD, that's a different thing entirely.

        I know a gentleman from one of the email lists I'm on who's an extremely high-functioning autistic. Very smart, and we get along quite well. We could not talk on the phone without me driving him off the deep edge, though. He has problems with the normal small pauses that people leave in sentences. I leave pauses that have people wondering if I've hung up. He'd be bonkers after 10 minutes.

        Like OCD, it's not a matter of being a know-it-all jerk. It's not voluntary at all. Just happens.


        Paul
        I haven't really got OCD, but I guess I am like your friend in that I know what I'm saying is irrational. I don't think that someone must be unprofessional because they make a simple mistake or anything like that.

        I suppose it just comes down to personal preference - mine is that I really don't like spelling and grammar mistakes!
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  • Profile picture of the author virginiad
    I applaud those for whom English is not their first language when they attempt to make themselves understood. Actually, the more I read articles, postings, emails, etc from foreign speakers the more I can understand.

    However, your question reminds me of a response i received from a web design company that had said they were based in Atlanta, Ga. My question was very basic...I believe that I just had advertised for someone who was familiar with PHP. The email that they sent was so garbled that I had no clue what it was they were trying to say. All I could think was that if they approached a prospective client with such poor use of the language, what would happen if I actually hired them?
    Signature

    Virginia Drew


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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by LynnM View Post

      While we're on the subject of spelling...why on earth do so many people nowadays spell the word "lose" as "loose"?
      There be money in them there hills missy! Misspellings ken bee muney mackers.
      I actually just did a blog post on that very word - see secrets below and search for gooogle.

      Ok, to those of you who English is not your first language, you are all dismissed.

      I just have to say, I recently put out a local ad for some help. The email replies that came in were SHOCKING. Bad grammar, bad spelling, no formal "To whom it may concern" or Dear Sir or Madam. The letters were terrible, and the job description was for someone to be meticulous with detail and categorization.

      I dunno. Maybe I'm just a Wombat too.
      Signature

      "May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"

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  • Profile picture of the author scattermouse
    Kevin - google "ghoti"
    That says everything about the silliness of English pronunciation!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by scattermouse View Post

      Kevin - google "ghoti"
      That says everything about the silliness of English pronunciation!
      LOL. I'm glad that here we just say Sakana. Much easier.
      Signature
      Kevin Riley, long-time Warrior living in Osaka, Japan

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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        because there are no set rules
        There are set rules - we just change them whenever you "furriners" start to understand the rules we have.

        When you complain, we say the language is "evolving"...
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
        ***
        One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
        what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eliza. N
    I have seen many a grammar and spelling mistake in newsletters and IM programmes/products from highly revered and super duper hero gurus and I just think to myself, aw, well they are only human after all (I think) and read on happy in the knowledge that we are all prone to error.

    The lose/loose thing well that completely changes the meaning of the word so is definitely more cringable but other than that, mistakes don't hinder my enjoyment of reading and will not lower my opinion of someone or render them untrustworthy IMO.

    I'm so aware of my spelling/grammar now, tut.
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  • Profile picture of the author Revolves
    Good writing is important since you want to convey your information in the most interesting and concise manner. When you fail to do it, you run the considerable risk of losing the reader's interest. After that, your text does not communicate what was intended, however valuable that might have been.

    There are people who'd forgive someone for bad grammar, provided we're sure he has something valuable. But no one wants to waste time skimming through hundreds of emails trying to find which one is valuable, while also trying to make sense of that 'value' from the badly written text.
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  • Profile picture of the author Craig Fenton
    Hi Steven:

    Hope all is well. Great thread.

    This may surprise you since I am a professional writer/author/public-speaker (even former radio personality). Communication is my life but...

    While I agree that emails, books, forum threads, etc. should not have a myriad of mistakes (I talk about grammar ills in my speaking/writing course) there are people that have a good mind but are not able to articulate their thoughts.

    Here is an example. There is a college student that often asks me questions about writing and the radio industry. When they send the email and even the way they speak on the phone you wouldn't believe they go to a major university.

    When you get to know the individual you find out they are as well versed on technology as anyone you will communicate with. If they were to send you a review for instance on the latest computers or mobile devices there would be plenty of spelling errors. If you read the contents all the way through you would not only save a great deal of money your knowledge would increase tremendously.

    Yes, I vote for 100 percent perfect grammar/spelling but before that the product and the guarantee wins out first.

    Thanks for letting me contribute.

    Enjoy Wednesday!
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    • Profile picture of the author yves
      The only time bad grammar and spelling annoys me is when someone plagiarizes my article then barstardizes it, disjointed sentences, grammar out the window then it gets featured on EZA.

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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Just to turn this on its head a little.

        Look at the positives if your spelling and grammar are top notch and you are widely read.

        Too often we focus on what people can't do. Isn't it better to point out the benefits of improved literacy?

        • Almost everybody can understand you. Unless you use lots of jargon and Latin based words, in which case you need to learn more about register and appropriacy.

        • You can choose when to use incorrect grammar for effect or a different market. For example, Morecombe & Wise and their "English Like What She Is Spoken" sketch. (FYI, Morecombe $ Wise were one of Britains greatest comedy duos MORECAMBE & WISE : Andre Previn (zombizone) - Video)

        • You have an advantage in terms of domain names. I have one domain which has both the British and American spelling (the British one redirects to the American one). Imagine just registering the British spelling and then watching somebody getting the American spelling and taking my traffic. A few days ago I was looking for a domain name in a very hot niche and got an excellent one with the main keywords + a synonym which has millions of Google searches outside the USA, but is actually an English word.

        This also relates to Paul's thread the other day about how you handle feedback.

        I think it's a good idea to point out mistakes in their English to people because, if they are serious about their business and personal development, it will help them to improve. However, there are ways and ways of going about it.

        People might not realize how bad their English is and you could devastate them if you don't give them feedback in a diplomatic way.

        According to the US Education Department, 32 million Americans are illiterate and the situation is getting worse.

        Illiteracy rates worsening in U.S. - News

        This means that the chances of dealing with English-challenged customers will increase. It's going to be another cost of doing business along with chargebacks, affiliate theft et al.

        And it's not just the USA. I have a friend in Australia who interviewed dozens of high school graduates for a job and could only find 2 people who could spell and write in decent English.

        In the UK, 15% of kids can't even write their own name when they start school

        Child literacy rates below Government targets - Telegraph

        There is some good news if you are targeting women in the UK. Women have higher literacy levels than men.

        What does all this mean?

        Well, if you can write well, it's great news because the competition is decreasing.

        On the other hand, it's a very sad reflection on the education systems of developed countries.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          ...people who could spell and write in decent English.
          I've been known to use the occasional indecent anglo-saxon word, but
          only when bad grammar and spelling annoys me.

          John
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  • Profile picture of the author ragnartm
    Honestly, I think you're "being a mrs wombat" here (since you mentioned it yourself I hope it's not off-mark. I grew up in Norway so unfamiliar with British and American sayings). Some of the most basic and powerful advice I've ever gotten was poorly worded, it still worked. However I admit that I often react in a similar way to poorly worded mails, articles, reviews or even blog posts.
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    Ragnar.

    Quality over quantity. Hire me to write highly shareable, user focused blog posts or articles.

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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Just as a matter of interest...

    Google returns about 6,600,000 results for "dear friend".

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    well... I hate it when people use poor grammar. It bugs the crap out of me UNLESS it's intentional to get my attention. Then, and only then do I appreciate it.
    Sebastian
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    • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
      Originally Posted by Eliza. N View Post

      I have seen many a grammar and spelling mistake in newsletters and IM programmes/products from highly revered and super duper hero gurus and I just think to myself, aw, well they are only human after all (I think) and read on happy in the knowledge that we are all prone to error.

      I do wonder if it's because they have been transcribed by someone in the Philippines (no offence intended as Filipino is their main language).

      Some Reece, Kern and Stomper manuals have atrocious grammar and many incorrect words such as "rip port" instead of "report", or "paper clip" instead of "pay per click" etc...

      This is unprofessional in my opinion and definitely very irritating when reading it.

      Perhaps they figure hardly anyone reads these kinds of things any more, so why bother...
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        Why does the Sun go on shining? Why does the sea rush to the shore? How many licks does it take to get to the chewy Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?
        Who is John Galt?

        Hi T.Sam,

        manuals have atrocious grammar and many incorrect words such as "rip port" instead of "report", or "paper clip" instead of "pay per click"
        They're probably using DNS or some other speech to text program.

        Hi Steven,

        But some of the stuff I see at this forum makes me want to cringe
        It's not the sloppy grammar/spelling that's the problem as much as the sloppy thinking.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

          That one drives me up the wall, too. The idea of "loose weight" out in the wild is, quite frankly, frightening! Far too much of it seems to have ended up at my house.

          You're either a lousy comedian or a perfect ass. Post again so we know.

          Tina G
          Tina, I just got back from vacation to the Caribbean. Saw enough 'loose weight' in the wild to make me lose my appetite, which caused me to (temporarily) lose weight. Even aboard the ship, abundant 'loose weight' of the domestic variety ran wild.

          The experience left me convinced that for some people the wearing of a Speedo, thong or string bikini in public should be a chargeable offense...
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            This may be a first. A 3 page thread that I started where I only have 4 posts
            (including this one), didn't start a riot and where there has actually been
            some decent discussion and some great contributions (not from me) that
            have made this actually worth reading.

            Plus, I've learned a lot from it.

            Miracles can happen.
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            • Profile picture of the author traces2757
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              This may be a first. A 3 page thread that I started where I only have 4 posts
              (including this one), didn't start a riot and where there has actually been
              some decent discussion and some great contributions (not from me) that
              have made this actually worth reading.

              Plus, I've learned a lot from it.

              Miracles can happen.
              Actually, I'm organizing a demonstration as we speak. It takes a while to proofread and edit all the protest signs, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author star lit
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    My ultimate question is, at what point are we being a Mrs. Wombat and
    at what point are we being reasonable in our expectations.
    Hi Steven
    I think you missed a ? when you asked a question.
    Mistakes happen even to the best of us.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by star lit View Post

      Hi Steven
      I think you missed a ? when you asked a question.
      Mistakes happen even to the best of us.
      Touche'

      Guess I need to start wombatting myself over the head.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    As far as copywriting is concerned, the biggest problem with poor
    grammar and spelling is that they cause the reader to stop reading
    and analyze for a while.

    The "smooth slide" then becomes bumpy and even uncomfortable
    for the reader.

    Most people who get red in the face over bad grammar are usually
    'first borns', stick-to-the-rules kinda people who will also have
    a neat desk and a dustless room.

    It's a part of their nature to be clean, in order, speckless.

    So all those posters who think that good grammar is critical
    will also have other things about them to match--grooming,
    well-cut lawns, spotless vehicles--it's part of their nature
    and we can all forgive them.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author traces2757
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      As far as copywriting is concerned, the biggest problem with poor
      grammar and spelling is that they cause the reader to stop reading
      and analyze for a while.

      The "smooth slide" then becomes bumpy and even uncomfortable
      for the reader.

      Most people who get red in the face over bad grammar are usually
      'first borns', stick-to-the-rules kinda people who will also have
      a neat desk and a dustless room.

      It's a part of their nature to be clean, in order, speckless.

      So all those posters who think that good grammar is critical
      will also have other things about them to match--grooming,
      well-cut lawns, spotless vehicles--it's part of their nature
      and we can all forgive them.

      -Ray Edwards
      Actually, I notice poor spelling, grammar and word flow right away and get facial tics over some of it, but I'm one of the most disorganized people you'd ever want to meet.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by traces2757 View Post

        Actually, I notice poor spelling, grammar and word flow right away and get facial tics over some of it, but I'm one of the most disorganized people you'd ever want to meet.
        Tracy,

        I'm sorry. But I don't believe you. You'll have to show me photos
        of your desk, your room, your car ...

        You may not want to think that you are not organized, but I'm sure
        you are.

        -Ray Edwards
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        The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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        • Profile picture of the author traces2757
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          Tracy,

          I'm sorry. But I don't believe you. You'll have to show me photos
          of your desk, your room, your car ...

          You may not want to think that you are not organized, but I'm sure
          you are.

          -Ray Edwards
          No, seriously, I'm not. I'm embarrassingly messy and disorganized, and notoriously absent-minded.

          I do have quirks, though. Let's say that I had a chalkboard in my office. (Not a bad idea. I think I'll start a list of things I should get and include that, although I'll no doubt lose the list within a day.) Anyway, let's say that I write some things on the chalkboard and then later erase them. If I notice that there is one minuscule chalk mark left on that board, it'll bother the heck out of me until I erase it.

          I'm just a walking contradiction, I guess.
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          • Profile picture of the author Raydal
            Originally Posted by traces2757 View Post

            No, seriously, I'm not. I'm embarrassingly messy and disorganized, and notoriously absent-minded.

            Anyway, let's say that I write some things on the chalkboard and then later erase them. If I notice that there is one minuscule chalk mark left on that board, it'll bother the heck out of me until I erase it.

            I'm just a walking contradiction, I guess.
            Just as I expected!

            My son (first born) is the same way as well. His mother makes
            fun of him by rearranging a 3-set series of books which he has
            to have in the 1-2-3 order. he doesn't even seem to notice
            this compulsion until it was pointed out to him.

            Now here is the kicker, according to studies done in the field
            of birth orders, first borns will deliberately keep a messy desk
            just to give the appearance that they are NOT picky.

            And I'm not making this up. I can give you the reference
            if you want it. So you still fit the profile.

            -Ray Edwards

            P.S. Sorry about the "h" starting a sentence. Didn't mean to
            bother you.
            Signature
            The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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            • Profile picture of the author traces2757
              Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

              Just as I expected!

              My son (first born) is the same way as well. His mother makes
              fun of him by rearranging a 3-set series of books which he has
              to have in the 1-2-3 order. he doesn't even seem to notice
              this compulsion until it was pointed out to him.

              Now here is the kicker, according to studies done in the field
              of birth orders, first borns will deliberately keep a messy desk
              just to give the appearance that they are NOT picky.

              And I'm not making this up. I can give you the reference
              if you want it. So you still fit the profile.

              -Ray Edwards

              P.S. Sorry about the "h" starting a sentence. Didn't mean to
              bother you.
              I'm the last born of four children.

              I believe you, though!
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author ChrisJamesG
    Just spent ten minutes trying to find an error in your grammar...all clean...dammit :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author prosperpreneur
    As a person I try to see the truth as well as the hard work involved behind any offer and how it is going to add value in my life.

    During last several weeks i have stopped focusing on any nagative aspect or weakness of a person or a business rather see what positive in it.


    The moment I focus my attention on spelling or grammer mistakes i am paying attention to whats wrong but if I focus on whats good and what i can learn from the time I spend with the email copy or sales message I give my brain something new and exciting.

    so my conclusion is to see where I want to pay attention on the value I am getting out of messages where i spend my time .

    hope it makes sense ?

    Thanks,
    -Gaj
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
    well my main market loves bad grammar.

    In fact I start all my emails off with

    "Was good"

    If I wrote emails and spoke with perfect grammar I'd lose sales.

    Lesson: Know your market.
    Signature

    Self Actualization is one's true purpose. Everything
    else is an illusion.

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  • Profile picture of the author Alminc
    I'm so bad at english that the only way out for me is outsourcing all written content.
    But I have tiny budget and I can only outsource to bad writers, which results in even worse English than mine
    Signature
    No links :)
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  • Profile picture of the author greenovni
    I agree also, it irks me to no end when people's spelling is bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bright Wings
    Well not to be a contrarian or anything (I'm actually an ex-English teacher who has learned to be more tolerant outside the classroom) -- here's a different point of view.

    I happen to know a couple of very successful internet marketers whose grammar leaves me shuddering in horror. Who are their target markets? newbies. Many of whom don't "spel rite" either! Their target markets don't care about grammar the way some of the rest of us do. So for them, it works.

    Of course, it's probable that they lose some of the more educated prospects whose grasp of ANY language exceeds theirs. But it seems that they are doing quite well without it, thank you very much.

    And I'm NOT talking about people from other cultures -- these are folks from the good old USA, who somehow managed to create successful businesses for themselves without being able to "spel or tock rite."

    Just something to consider.

    Does your target market care? THAT's the right question to ask, IMHO.
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