Am I Being A Mrs Wombat Or Do I Have A Point Here?

Becky, I, more than anybody (having come from an urban community)
understand that. But unfortunately, we live in an English based world and
we expect, right or wrong, people to have a decent command of the
English language.

My wife is a school teacher in an urban school and she cringes everyday
at some of the grammar she has to endure. The excuses given?

It's how they were brought up.

Maybe, but the majority (again, I'm guessing here) don't care how you
were brought up or where you came from. They're going to judge you on
their expectations.

Not fair?

Maybe. But that is, I think anyway, the reality.

That's what I'm trying to get at here.

Is that the reality or are people more tolerant than I think?

Becky

Some of the worst grammar I've seen here is not from those who have English as a second language. The shocking ones tend to be from Americans, ones whose surnames lead me to believe their first language should be English.

Collin, I disagree 100% This is not a valid comparison. Hanging from the root is a life or death situation. Buying a product off a website is not. I've got time to comparison shop, think about what I'm doing, question whether or not I really have the money to spend, any number of things.

The fact is, sites with poor grammar and spelling rank lower on my credibility meter and likely on other's as well. Now, if your market is those that wouldn't know spelling and grammar if it bit them in the ass, well, then it probably doesn't matter for that market.

There is a promo just this morning that is being pitched that has mistakes on the long page. One above the fold. Why not just just put a click away button right there taking them back to google so they can find a site that doesn't look amateurish and does look trustworthy. That would be serving the customer.

I'd be tempted to wait for 2).

Kidding...Excellent analogy. Plus some people are dyslexic and for the sake of a forum post may not have time to spell check etc.

For a website, however, I think good grammer and spelling are paramount.

Aye, lang may yer lum reek.

John,
You are so right. This forum is multi-cultural and we are dealing with people from around the world. People with different ways of expressing themselves, and even different ways of spelling. (is it "program" or "programme?")

I don't really care about a person's sentence structure or their spelling skills if they are giving me information that could, for instance, help me become a millionaire.

After all, there are millionaires who can't spell forem--forim--foram--well whatever. My point is, what difference does it make? We weren't all born with a silver dictionary in our mouths. And for those who were, "kudos to you."

I think building relationships, friendships and business success....and sharing helpful information is what this forum is all about.

I could be wrong... but have a great day anyway!!!

Language is all about communication. The better one writes, the better they can communicate their message to the reader. When spelling errors and grammatical issues become a distraction from the message, the ability to communicate that message is downgraded.

I find myself much more forgiving when the errors are because someone is trying to communicate in a language that is not native to them. I mean, if I tried to communicate in Chinese or Arabic, my efforts would be laughable.

I do think it is fairly easy to tell though when someone is just not knowledgeable or is lazy in their writing efforts. Both of those faults lead me to not put much credence in what is being said or in fact not read it at all. It doesn't negatively affect my day, I just move on to the next post or message and the person writing that way just lost an opportunity to communicate with me. If that is okay with them... it is okay with me too.

Wait a minute. You're stuff is full of horrible grammatical errors and spelling. Oh sorry, that's a different Mike. Forget I said anything. (Quietly walks off whistling and pretending he saw something very interesting across the room).

Same here.. unless it's painfully unreadable (and unfortunately I've seen that quite a bit here, on other forums, and occasionally in "sales copy") I usually don't let it bother me too much.

On the other hand, if I've read something twice and I still don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say I'll probably save myself the headache and just ignore it.. lol

Actually this is true for Canadians too, and many people don't realize it. (I guess because we are under "british rule"?)

But we are taught in school the correct spelling of colour is NOT (the US version) color... which is standard in html LOL (Eesh - imagine how we have fun with this one!)

And then there's "zee" verses "zed" (speaking wise...)
and yes, cheque vs. check...

and SO many more.

I was always great at English/Grammar/Spelling in school but I learned a few things online:

1) yes, the world looks (now) at mostly US english.. heck, even MS Office, even buying a Canadian version, automatically defaults to US English...

2) I can't remember which sales letter 'guru' talked about it (Yanik or Joe Vitale maybe?) but people write the way they speak.... and often people find it *easier* to read and follow points and principles when they are written the same way as they would be spoken (conversational vs. "grammatically correct")

Steven, I suppose it maybe determines just how extensive your thoughts of proper grammar are.

I have spellcheck and grammar turned OFF in MS office because it drives me absolutely bonkers when I write LOL - (rarely get the spelling mistakes, but it flags grammar, even when it IS correct, or as someone else mentioned, INTENDED to have a short point, not a "full proper" sentence).

My biggest pet peeve is punctuation and spelling.

I can read any novel and find spelling errors, it drives my husband nuts...

but there's something I learned to remember when I read things, as has slightly been mentioned here...

With people who have English as their second, third or fourth language, maybe you haven't realized this too:

Some words just AREN'T in their original language.

There was an interesting video a friend sent me yesterday... it shows in there how much the english language has grown... (Video is a "did you know?" )

There are 540,000 words in the English language... 5 times the number since Shakespeare.

English is my husband's fourth language (Dutch #1, Suriname Tongue/TakiTaki #2/3) - you'd never know it because he speaks fluent English with virtually no accent (Came to Canada when he was 12).

BUT...

He said one of the hardest things he had to learn was how many MORE words the English language uses just to say the same thing vs. other languages.

So... if some people (I'm talking ones that don't have Eng. as their first language) skip a word or maybe don't sound "grammatically correct", perhaps this is why?

My hubby has improved since I've been married to him (going on 19 yrs :p) but believe me, its taken a lot of time to even tweak some of his wording LOL! And to this day, spelling is his WORST, and when he does typing of any kind,
a) he's very short/to the point/almost abrupt (and in complete sentences)
b) he then gets me to edit

Anyway.. sorry for rambling on... I agree - but I guess to what point do we expect perfection, when most aren't teachers or may have had less training?

And lets face it - some people just have other strengths.. i..e, technical math/programming is my hubby's best strengths - but spelling NOT. Me - I'm the other way around.

I do agree though, that if this is the issue for people, they should really consider having an editor if its intended to be more formal (like a sales letter).

Just my 2 cents.

Amber

Becky, I know people for whom English is indeed a second or third language. And often their command (or at least usage) of grammar is better than my own because they were drilled in it when studying the language.

It was the same when I studied German back in high school and later got the chance to speak with a native speaker of German. His everyday usage was far more casual than my memorized proper structures.

When we switched to English, his grammar was better than mine, although he occasionally slipped in some odd sentence structures when he was translating in his head as he spoke...

Who was it that said the Americans and the Brits were two peoples separated by a common language?

Steven, to address your original post, I tend to separate things like forum posts (done on the fly) from considered writing (products, sales letters, etc.).

In casual writing, I have a much higher tolerance for typos and such. I do worry about the growing trend of reducing eveything to text-speak, though. It's one thing when you only have 20 or 30 characters and every letter requires several keystrokes. It's another thing when it's done out of laziness or habit.

With considered writing, I don't worry about the occasional typo. When the mistakes become enough to distract me from the communication, I draw the line. I'm already making an effort to read the piece, and I shouldn't have to try to guess what the writer was trying to type.

But usually, my inner Wombat doesn't rear its head until I try to read the newspaper. I drive my wife nuts muttering about nitwit writers and idiot editors and the demise of proofreading...

Paul, would it be forward of me to ask to see your dangling participle?

It's a flippin' spell checker.

There are plenty of customers who are turned off by bad grammar, can someone explain why a marketer would NOT run their copy through one?

Defiance? Laziness? It takes 10 seconds. I don't get it.

Right or wrong, we're treated (to some extent) based on how we present ourselves. Or you can be that person who wears the ripped Pearl Jam t-shirt to a job interview and complain that you got judged by "The Man".

....priceless.....

"Point's." Or "points are."

If you're gonna wombat, dammit, get it right.


Paul

Yes, I do think you're being a Mrs. Womabat--whoever she is. Some of our best presidents have had to hire speech writers. Can you believe it?

How in the world could someone become president of the greatest country on the planet--and fare so badly when it comes to spelling, grammar and sentence structure? Amazing!

Listen...It's not that important.

Hi Kathy

Hehe. This is what I meant by "know your audience". In British English, "dreamt", "learnt", "spelt" and burnt" are correct usages.

Come to think of it, why don't you say "meaned" :confused:



Frank

Grammar can change according to the audience you're writing for or the point you're trying to get across. A good writer makes his or her readers feel comfortable with what they're reading. Even with different grammar rules for different audiences, however, there are still subtle standards that good writers adhere to in order to get their points across in the best way possible.

Well, you know how fast wombats multiply...

Andy, I assure you...I didn't do it.

I guess this is a hot topic with a lot of people.

Maybe I'm not the only one this has been bugging.

Nobody needs to have scholarly writing abilities to make good sales pages. They should simply get help with the look of their content if they aren't skilled in that area.

I'm a decent writer but a lousy salesperson. I couldn't sell a running water hose to a rich man whose hair was on fire. So, no matter how correct all the spelling, grammar and punctuation on my website is, the sales copy is probably going to look crappy if I try to do it myself.

I get help with the copy and make sure the writing looks good.

Thadpole,

It's a very safe bet that few of the people here, other than your esteemed self and possibly Mr Louviere, have the artistic sensibilities to pull off that kind of thing as well as you just did.

A lesson well worth larnin'!


Paul

Eliza,

Where's my calendar?! A Wombat with a sense of humor? I am astounded, amazed and abashed. That's keeewwl!

Scattermouse, If you actually are OCD, that's a different thing entirely.

I know a gentleman from one of the email lists I'm on who's an extremely high-functioning autistic. Very smart, and we get along quite well. We could not talk on the phone without me driving him off the deep edge, though. He has problems with the normal small pauses that people leave in sentences. I leave pauses that have people wondering if I've hung up. He'd be bonkers after 10 minutes.

Like OCD, it's not a matter of being a know-it-all jerk. It's not voluntary at all. Just happens.


Paul

There be money in them there hills missy! Misspellings ken bee muney mackers.
I actually just did a blog post on that very word - see secrets below and search for gooogle.

Ok, to those of you who English is not your first language, you are all dismissed.

I just have to say, I recently put out a local ad for some help. The email replies that came in were SHOCKING. Bad grammar, bad spelling, no formal "To whom it may concern" or Dear Sir or Madam. The letters were terrible, and the job description was for someone to be meticulous with detail and categorization.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a Wombat too.

LOL. I'm glad that here we just say Sakana. Much easier.

The only time bad grammar and spelling annoys me is when someone plagiarizes my article then barstardizes it, disjointed sentences, grammar out the window then it gets featured on EZA.

I do wonder if it's because they have been transcribed by someone in the Philippines (no offence intended as Filipino is their main language).

Some Reece, Kern and Stomper manuals have atrocious grammar and many incorrect words such as "rip port" instead of "report", or "paper clip" instead of "pay per click" etc...

This is unprofessional in my opinion and definitely very irritating when reading it.

Perhaps they figure hardly anyone reads these kinds of things any more, so why bother...

Touche'

Guess I need to start wombatting myself over the head.

Actually, I notice poor spelling, grammar and word flow right away and get facial tics over some of it, but I'm one of the most disorganized people you'd ever want to meet.