Outsourcing: 2 programmers left me, 1 ripped me off...

34 replies
I’m really frustrated. To make a long story short, I had an idea for a Web App in June but 5 months and 3 programmers later I still haven’t got the Web App. Some 2 programmers left me and 1 ripped me off.

It’s hard to keep a smile on my face after this but I’m not a quitter!

How do you guys find affordable and loyal programmers?

Thanks.
#left #outsourcing #programmers #ripped
  • I think you should do as much background as possible on the people you are planning to hire. And ask for credentials also.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Lacer
      Originally Posted by Katherine Henders View Post

      I think you should do as much background as possible on the people you are planning to hire. And ask for credentials also.
      I did. The programmer has good reviews they might be created by himself..
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Lacer View Post

        I did. The programmer has good reviews they might be created by himself..
        So you had a great idea for an App.

        Then you had a bad idea about outsourcing its creation to some random freelancers you found online.

        Next you will tell me the App was for measuring peoples IQ.
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    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
      I am sorry to hear about your current situation. As a developer I can give you some suggestion...

      1. Treat your developer as a man and describe your project as details as possible. MST of the time I found people not sure what they really need and it makes the project more complex. If possible make screen short for your requirements.

      2. Do not ask for frequent changes. It normally happen if you did not cover above point I described.

      3. Promise your Developer with some reward so that they work hard to finish your site within a reasonable time frame.


      4. Another thing that can destroy you. It is a Commons believe that mor Ethan one developer can finish the work more quickly. But in my experience I found that working with co worker can create son problem with file overwriting and can slower down each member of the team. I know you it can sounds silly but I found it problematic in real project.


      5. Don't push your developer to work for a very low price. When they will get good opportunity they might left you. You have to understand that developers from freelancing marketplaces have to pass a very hard life and they work for the lower rate than any of your local developer so if you pay a little more than average rate for your project it can help them a lot and you will get your job done quickly.


      I do not enough time now but I think I almost cover everything.
      Thanks
      Sabbir
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  • Profile picture of the author lestermoreno
    Hi, is this Web App in asp.net ?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Lacer
      Originally Posted by lestermoreno View Post

      Hi, is this Web App in asp.net ?
      I don't exactly know what it is build in. Every programmer used other programming language for it.
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      • Profile picture of the author gianca1976
        I'm a sw engineer and I'd like to know a bit more of the project, I'm looking for some collaborations..I can give you my reference through PM if you wish...have a good day!
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  • Profile picture of the author Alast
    I think the best thing you could do is ensure the project is achievable for the programmers. You don't exactly give us an insight on the size and complexity of the project, which makes it difficult to empathize with the situation you are placed in. When you say affordable, if it's too affordable, the chances are it's either going to be developed poorly or as you have experienced: not at all. Instead of freelancing sites, you could research a company who are able to develop such applications and who are also competent both knowledge wise, and programmers wise.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Lacer
      Originally Posted by Alast View Post

      I think the best thing you could do is ensure the project is achievable for the programmers. You don't exactly give us an insight on the size and complexity of the project, which makes it difficult to empathize with the situation you are placed in. When you say affordable, if it's too affordable, the chances are it's either going to be developed poorly or as you have experienced: not at all. Instead of freelancing sites, you could research a company who are able to develop such applications and who are also competent both knowledge wise, and programmers wise.
      Great advice .
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Luck
    I always start with looking for new developers (or anyone for that matter that I'll be outsourcing) on Elance.

    The reason I use Elance is simply due to the fact that their Escrow Service combined with setting up milestones is as bulletproof as you'll get with protection.

    What I do, is that when I hire someone on Elance (who, must always have a fantastic track record of existing work and reviews, or else I don't even consider them)...

    I create milestones with them. So for example...

    Milestone 1 = App Design = $500 Released

    Milestone 2 = App Beta Stage = $500 Released

    Milestone 3 = App Completed = $500 Released

    When you do this, you get to send money (ONLY AFTER) they have delivered what they said they would deliver on each milestone.

    Prior to setting up milestones and using escrow, I lost over $40,000 to developers because of the same problem you've been having.

    After setting up milestones and using escrow, I haven't lost a dime, and the quality of people I hire are top notch.

    Good Luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Lacer
      Originally Posted by Chris Luck View Post

      I always start with looking for new developers (or anyone for that matter that I'll be outsourcing) on Elance.

      The reason I use Elance is simply due to the fact that their Escrow Service combined with setting up milestones is as bulletproof as you'll get with protection.

      What I do, is that when I hire someone on Elance (who, must always have a fantastic track record of existing work and reviews, or else I don't even consider them)...

      I create milestones with them. So for example...

      Milestone 1 = App Design = $500 Released

      Milestone 2 = App Beta Stage = $500 Released

      Milestone 3 = App Completed = $500 Released

      When you do this, you get to send money (ONLY AFTER) they have delivered what they said they would deliver on each milestone.

      Prior to setting up milestones and using escrow, I lost over $40,000 to developers because of the same problem you've been having.

      After setting up milestones and using escrow, I haven't lost a dime, and the quality of people I hire are top notch.

      Good Luck!
      Thanks for the tip, but what if they decide to leave you after achieving the first couple of milestones? You still have nothing then..

      Escrow service sounds great though .
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  • Profile picture of the author bostjan33
    Banned
    Well, many of us have gone along this road, haven't we?
    Coders are very known to be the most unreliable people on the face of the earth.

    However, there is something you can do in the future: sign a freakin' devdocs (Work agreement), and of course, the NDA.

    Finding coders isn't tough. Finding good ones is much tougher. Finding reliable ones is almost impossible. So, protect yourself prior giving away your hard earned money to scammers.

    Good luck, you'll need it. A lot.
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    • Profile picture of the author janocolorado
      Originally Posted by bostjan33 View Post

      Coders are very known to be the most unreliable people on the face of the earth.
      ...
      Finding reliable ones is almost impossible.
      I'm a coder and I must confess I don't like what you've said. Change Coder for Internet Marketer and you will have the opinion of many people. Fortunately, neither one nor the other are true.
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      • Profile picture of the author gianca1976
        Originally Posted by janocolorado View Post

        I'm a coder and I must confess I don't like what you've said. Change Coder for Internet Marketer and you will have the opinion of many people. Fortunately, neither one nor the other are true.
        I'm a coder and almost a IM and I agree with Janocolorado. Generalization usually is wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Hunter
    Banned
    It's terrible the situation you're in and honestly it's hard to give anyone a fool proof way to keep from getting ripped off. Try networking through friends and ask for suggestions on who they've worked with.

    If all else fails it may be time to go back to school haha. Good luck and keep your head up!
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    • Profile picture of the author morg2k2
      Well,

      This depends a lot about the project size, but if it´s not that small, instead of outsourcing or getting freelancers, why not to hire them as your own employees, you will get the following benefits:


      1) Higher Loyality rate
      2) You can bulletproof the Contract with your employee (defensive clauses for example)
      3) You will have always the real contacts of him (phone number, address, etc) and can reach the person easier.

      The only downside can be considered the salary, but in the end the higher salary will be a better option than spenting lower amounts of cash for lower quality workers.

      I don´t have already enough scale for this, but when i will have it and i sincrerely believe to have it in the near future , this will be my mindset.

      Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author a1z277
    Hello, you should look for a freelancer, based on my experience codeclerks.com is site where you can find programmers for a good price.
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    • Profile picture of the author STMN
      I look in the warrior for hire section in the warrior forum, add them on skype, pitch them the idea and feel them out.

      I am sorry for your troubles but it is a part of your journey my friend.
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      • Profile picture of the author ElijahM
        Some, not all, coders are unreliable. Some, not all, of any group of people are unreliable. Anyway, it's good to get personal references before hiring any technical staff. Lay down firm specs and insist on discussing and having the final say on any deviations. Just because you, personally, don't know how to code does not mean you have to give all authority to the coder. Partially complete apps do not have to be totally abandoned because the original coder has "jumped ship." The vast majority of apps in the world are developed simultaneously by a team of coders, most of whom can pick up and follow through on somebody else's previously completed work. Best of luck to you!
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  • I feel your pain, I was ripped off by a programmer a few years back. It's tough to deal with them, but it can be done. Good luck.
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    soon people... Relax...
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  • Profile picture of the author jessiem
    Sorry to hear your story, Jeremy. I wish you could find more loyal programmers/web devs in the future.

    Just curious though, where did you hire them and what were the steps you took before deciding to hire them for the project? Did you also try giving a short exam for them or something like a trial work to let them show to you how trustworthy they are and how fast they can finish a certain project?

    Actually these "pre-qualifiers" before hiring a staff are major concerns of Staff.com. They can help you screen applicants and send you a shortlist of "worth it" candidates.

    Fiverr also has a good platform, you can also try it as you alternative. (Just adding my 2 cents)
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  • Profile picture of the author biggerk9
    I'm sorry to hear this
    Finding programmers for a good price is not really easy.
    Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author finne
    you should let you be shown some sort of work he previously has done.
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  • Profile picture of the author mgsmith
    Try Odesk, there are a lot of great freelancers and programmers there. You can check their feedback to see if they are trustworthy and if they are good at their work.
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    Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author brenda221
    It's usually a good idea to ask to see developers' portfolios before hiring them. If they've finished a project of similar complexity before that kinda gets close to what you're looking for, then you can probably trust them to finish another one like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author PrimaDNA1989
    Banned
    There is a way to get back at them if they are on this forum or a freelancing site. So for instance if they are advertizing here you can leave negative comments to warn other people and if you didn't hire them from here then you can contact the freelancing site and let them know. For instance if you go through Odesk, send all the correspondence and agreements and let them know that you got duped. Though with freelancing sites you would have to prove you didn't work outside their site. Really sorry you had to go through this I feel for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author jjmags1219
      Hi Jeremy, I understand your frustration but don't let that incident stop you on finding the best programmer for your team. Take it as a learning experience and address the possible reason why it happened : re-evaluate hiring process, the rate and your relationship with them.

      Just wondering where did you get those programmers? With freelancing sites, the best way to evaluate is to check the reviews and ratings of their previous clients.

      There are 2 factors why freelancer leave. Higher Rate Opportunity or Its About Relationship. Either way, these 2 should be balanced.

      As we all know, investing in the right people generates a greater return of our business.Thus, it is very important to choose the right ones.

      Good luck on your search for the right people who can support you all the way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    Elance.com and don't pay someone without checking the program first. You must use escrow service all the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Rosmer
    Let's start with where you're finding them and controlling the process. I'm a huge fan of Odesk and generally I'd advise you start there.

    Next, get people to quote on the project and only pay based on certain key milestones (I'd generally opt for nothing up front).

    Make sure they understand the scope of the project very clearly before you start and make sure they can clearly communicate it to you, don't assume they know what you are talking about.

    You're probably going to have to hire a bunch, give them each a small test and benchmark them against each other. Expect to go through a few to find one or two who are great and then keep them long term.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheRealRazzy
    I've gone through so many programmers and designers. It will take you a while to find some that are reliable, and when you do, NEVER LET THEM LEAVE!!! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Porphyrogenitus
    When outsourcing, is important to keep in mind you are renting consenting labor, not renting slaves. Keeping them motivated and excited about the future prospects of the project can be even more important than the monetary compensation they receive in exchange for their labor.

    But then again if you don't pay them enough they'll leave too. These factors are especially important for well-respected individuals.

    Put yourself in their shoes: Say you were exceptionally well-educated and experienced (which I hope you are). IBM, Apple, facebook, etc are happy to sign you on for a month or two for an exciting job that pays $10-20k. Now some guy is looking to have some app made, and offers, say $5k for what will take 2 weeks. Alright, sounds good so you get started. But then there seems to be no direction, or the value proposition seems weak, or maybe even the project looks like it will drag on forever. Would you want this on your resume? When you are skilled there are more important things than just the bottom line. Reputation is why they're valuable, and they'll protect that by declining anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author brettb
    I'm a coder. Most problems are due to the client setting unreasonable requests, or not paying reasonable money, or wanting a Facebook clone for $100 (see this so many times on oDesk).
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  • Profile picture of the author peterwrites
    Hello Sir,

    If you still need an able programmer you can always count on me and I'll not disappoint you.

    The following contains a list of my specialty:

    Vb 6.0

    SQL server,

    visual fox pro 9.0

    Thanks looking forward to hear from you.
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    Top Notch Writing Service
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