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Affordable Care Act for freelance marketers

by KingOfContentMarketing
87 replies
If you are in the U.S., here are some details of Obamacare you might consider in your planning.

The Affordable Care Act For Freelance Marketers

[Mods, please move this thread if needed.]
#act #affordable #care #freelance #marketers
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Well worth looking into if you are uninsured or underinsured. My nephew, a student, just signed up and got incredible rates and is now insured.
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    • Profile picture of the author GlobalPMT
      It's a little surprising hearing someone got incredible rates. My health insurance company said if I go with the ACA plan, my premiums will go up 52%!! My wife and I are very healthy and have very little healthcare costs. My friends that have two kids have their plan going up an additional $10,000 per year due to the ACA. If it works, great... but this is one of the few times I've heard good news.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by GlobalPMT View Post

        It's a little surprising hearing someone got incredible rates. My health insurance company said if I go with the ACA plan, my premiums will go up 52%!! My wife and I are very healthy and have very little healthcare costs. My friends that have two kids have their plan going up an additional $10,000 per year due to the ACA. If it works, great... but this is one of the few times I've heard good news.
        Well, it's brand new and just launched and the kinks worked out, so how much news could there be? His insurance is under $200/year with tax subsidies. Not bad for a starving college student who had no insurance. I wouldn't be getting my information on ACA from an insurance company that isn't in the plan.
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Well, it's brand new and just launched and the kinks worked out, so how much news could there be? His insurance is under $200/year with tax subsidies. Not bad for a starving college student who had no insurance. I wouldn't be getting my information on ACA from an insurance company that isn't in the plan.
          Under $16/month??? I'd love to know what the deductible is. I mean, $16/month is great but if the insurance doesn't kick in until he meets a $12,000 deductible, it suddenly isn't so affordable.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Well, it's brand new and just launched and the kinks worked out, so how much news could there be? His insurance is under $200/year with tax subsidies. Not bad for a starving college student who had no insurance. I wouldn't be getting my information on ACA from an insurance company that isn't in the plan.
          Sounds wonderful... better check the deductible and total
          out of pocket costs. They will take your breath away. He likely
          still isn't insured for most things that will befall him.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

            Sounds wonderful... better check the deductible and total
            out of pocket costs. They will take your breath away. He likely
            still isn't insured for most things that will befall him.
            That's quite true. I'm sure he's counting on staying as young and healthy as he currently is until he gets out of college. He was not insured previously, so the out of pocket costs before was 100%.
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            • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              ... but paying over $400 and $500 for plans that don't cover pre-existing conditions and a whole lot of expensive, but necessary procedures isn't very cost effective either. A lot of people don't know what their insurance won't cover until they're hit with it.
              I agree. However, my point was that your comment about getting a great rate and that he is now insured isn't necessarily entirely true if the "great rate" comes with a huge deductible that he will never reach.

              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              That's quite true. I'm sure he's counting on staying as young and healthy as he currently is until he gets out of college. He was not insured previously, so the out of pocket costs before was 100%.
              If he has an unreachable deductible, his out of pocket is still gonna be virtually 100% since his insurance won't kick in until the deductible is reached.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

                I agree. However, my point was that your comment about getting a great rate and that he is now insured isn't necessarily entirely true if the "great rate" comes with a huge deductible that he will never reach.

                If he has an unreachable deductible, his out of pocket is still gonna be virtually 100% since his insurance won't kick in until the deductible is reached.
                Like I said, I don't know the details of his policy and what the deductible is and how much is subsidized, etc. I assume that he feels it will benefit him. Otherwise he would just pay the penalty rather than signing up.
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        • Profile picture of the author GlobalPMT
          My insurance company is IN the plan and that's why it's a little disconcerting to me. I was offered an extra year under my old plan until they can get everything worked out. Let's hope for the best, and glad the starving college student was able to benefit.
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      His insurance is under $200/year with tax subsidies.
      I guess it's going to be different for everyone but would love to know how your Nephew managed that?
      Was paying $435 per month for 3 of us and now staring $780+ in the face...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        Under $16/month??? I'd love to know what the deductible is. I mean, $16/month is great but if the insurance doesn't kick in until he meets a $12,000 deductible, it suddenly isn't so affordable.
        Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

        I guess it's going to be different for everyone but would love to know how your Nephew managed that?
        Was paying $435 per month for 3 of us and now staring $780+ in the face...
        I don't know the details of his insurance. He's a student with a crap job to get through college, so I don't imagine he has a low deductible plan with "gold" coverage.
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I don't know the details of his insurance. He's a student with a crap job to get through college, so I don't imagine he has a low deductible plan with "gold" coverage.
          I hear ya. I don't think anyone was implying "gold" coverage. My point was really that although $16/month sounds great, a plan with a deductible that can't realistically be reached isn't really a plan at all. I mean, if you are a starving college kid making $8000/yr part-time, the $16/month is basically wasted money if the deductible is more than what he makes since the "insurance" will never kick in because he will never reach the deductible.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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            Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

            I hear ya. I don't think anyone was implying "gold" coverage. My point was really that although $16/month sounds great, a plan with a deductible that can't realistically be reached isn't really a plan at all. I mean, if you are a starving college kid making $8000/yr part-time, the $16/month is basically wasted money if the deductible is more than what he makes since the "insurance" will never kick in because he will never reach the deductible.
            ... but paying over $400 and $500 for plans that don't cover pre-existing conditions and a whole lot of expensive, but necessary procedures isn't very cost effective either. A lot of people don't know what their insurance won't cover until they're hit with it.
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            • Profile picture of the author kpmedia
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              ... but paying over $400 and $500 for plans that don't cover pre-existing conditions and a whole lot of expensive, but necessary procedures isn't very cost effective either. A lot of people don't know what their insurance won't cover until they're hit with it.
              Bingo.

              Most cheap plans don't cover anything, and have huge deductibles and huge out of pocket maxes. Calling it insurance is honestly a joke. The new law forces insurers to drop these stupid plans (effective 2015 now, due to the website having issues).

              A lot of this whining about healthcare costs going up is for this very reason. They were being sold nothing for $$$ and are angry for whatever crazy reason. The government was protecting these people, not harming them. Now you can get real insurance.
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              • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
                Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                His deductible and out of pocket maximum are both $6,000. While this is not "much" better than having no insurance, it does give him something to work with if he were to get into an accident.
                Thank you. That's been my point all along.

                I think you should do a little bit more research to understand how it all works and not just make assumptions. I'm glad you've never had to experience a situation like this, but you should be a little more open minded to the whole situation.
                Open-minded about what? My ONLY point all along (if you had actually read everything I wrote) is that a plan with an unaffordable deductible is virtually useless because it doesn't prevent financial ruin.

                But I think that we can both agree that if was $120,000 instead then the likely hood of growing bankrupt is exponentially higher.
                We can split hairs if you want but a person in poverty who cannot afford $12K is quite likely to go into BK. Is it definite? Of course not.

                Bottom line is any insurance is better than no insurance.
                Just barely if you can't afford the deductible to begin with.

                Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post

                Bingo.

                Most cheap plans don't cover anything, and have huge deductibles and huge out of pocket maxes. Calling it insurance is honestly a joke.
                Exactly. This is exactly the type of plan OP mentioned. That's why I asked what the deductible was for the plan her nephew got for just $16/month.

                Folks, many of you are operating under the assumption that a person will be able to make acceptable payment plans with the hospital to pay back the high deductible that isn't paid by insurance. My argument is that the person in poverty ("starving student", in this case) is rarely, in practice, going to be able to afford to pay that part back.

                Because I feel that it will often not be repaid and lead to BK, that's why I feel a high deductible / minute premium is very often not much better than no insurance (which some of you actually agreed with while trying to disagree with me). This is, in essence, where the disagreement stems from.

                If you take 100 people who are living paycheck to paycheck or are in poverty and saddle them with an unexpected $12k medical bill, how many (in reality) are going to be able to realistically pay it back? If your answer is "a majority", you are either naive or being intentionally obtuse.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                  Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

                  Just barely if you can't afford the deductible to begin with.

                  Exactly. This is exactly the type of plan OP mentioned. That's why I asked what the deductible was for the plan her nephew got for just $16/month.
                  To be clear, I am not the OP. Someone else started this thread ... not me, and as for your continued arguments on the topic, I don't know anyone who couldn't get together $12K in payments over time. It really is chump change. If $12K debt would cause financial ruin to all, I would have been ruined many times over (and I'm not). People overcome things far greater than a 12K medical bill all the time.

                  You don't like ACA. We get it. Don't use it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    To be clear, I am not the OP. Someone else started this thread ... not me, and as for your continued arguments on the topic, I don't know anyone who couldn't get together $12K in payments over time. It really is chump change. If $12K debt would cause financial ruin to all, I would have been ruined many times over (and I'm not). People overcome things far greater than a 12K medical bill all the time.

                    You don't like ACA. We get it. Don't use it.
                    You're right - my mistake. You were not the OP. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it would cause "ruin for all" nor did I ever ONCE mention ACA. I don't care about ACA because it isn't something I'll need. My argument has always simply been about high deductible plans regardless of how they relate to ACA.

                    You are pro-ACA, I get it. That's fine but I'm not necessarily talking about it so no need to be so defensive about it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Coby
                  Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

                  We can split hairs if you want but a person in poverty who cannot afford $12K is quite likely to go into BK. Is it definite? Of course not.
                  In my Cousin's real life case he is paying $6,000. Not $12k (which is a number you made up, not a real life one). And $6,000 is twice as affordable as $12,000.

                  And if I'm lucky enough to get insurance myself for $0.12 a year with only a $6,000 deductible I will be thrilled. My cousin was thrilled as he has a somewhat dangerous job. In fact, last year, he almost had a finger cut off. He racked up $23,000 in bills which he is still making payments on. He said he wished it was only $6,000.

                  I think you need to take your blinders off and look at this in perspective.

                  I already told you of an instance where my girlfriend and myself (who were starving college students at the time) went through something similar and made it out fine.

                  It's very obvious you've never had to deal with anything remotely related, but I do appreciate your passion to argue anyways.

                  But the simple fact that my girlfriend was told point blank (I was sitting right next to her) that the doctor WOULD NOT perform the surgery on her without upfront payment...

                  How would you feel to see your girlfriend/wife in extreme pain, with a severely broken foot (radial fracture) being pushed around in a wheel chair be told that she MIGHT NOT walk again simply because she DOESN'T have insurance?

                  I experienced it and we would have been thrilled to have insurance with even a $20,000 deductible (even though at the time we probably barely made that much a year combined). If she had insurance, the doctor would have worked on her first and worried about the money second...

                  But we had to do fundraisers and sell one of our cars in order for him to do the surgery on her...

                  I really appreciate your view and your passion - but you need to step into reality. It's very apparent you've never been even close to this type of situation and are just arguing semantics.

                  Going bankrupt or not (after the fact) is a much better option than DYING or NEVER WALKING again or being turned away because of not having insurance. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy.

                  I would choose bankrupty over death or living with an severe injury any day of the week. Wouldn't you?

                  Cheers,
                  Coby

                  P.S. I did indeed read every response in the thread before replying. However I'm not convinced that you yourself have.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                    In my Cousin's real life case he is paying $6,000. Not $12k (which is a number you made up, not a real life one). And $6,000 is twice as affordable as $12,000.

                    ....

                    I would choose bankrupty over death or living with an severe injury any day of the week. Wouldn't you?

                    Cheers,
                    Coby
                    And most people would choose bankruptcy over death, although even though $12K is a purely fictional figure that he made up, I still dispute 12K being catastrophic debt. It is chump change, as I said. My nephew and many students have far more debt than that in student loans.

                    The screenshots I posted show more accurately what is available and how much it would cost given his circumstances and the amount shown is without subsidy so it shows what is available in the plan here in VA without subsidy also.

                    As for the other discussions of government blah blah blah, I remind you that politics is not allowed, so try not to get the thread deleted just so you can air your political opinions on health insurance. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Farthing
    I had to run to apply for insurance before 2014 when new laws take effect. I just want a bare minimums policy, since I'm a young, single, healthy guy.

    Outside the ACA marketplace, the cheapest plan I could get was $55/month. With the ACA, the cheapest I can get is $260.

    Now, that'll probably be subsidized, but that just means someone else is paying the insurance company. Although, with the news laws the ACA plans are a lot better than that $55 plan.

    As someone who rarely goes to the doctor, I wish I didn't have to pay so much.
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    • Profile picture of the author edwin3145
      Originally Posted by Benjamin Farthing View Post

      I had to run to apply for insurance before 2014 when new laws take effect. I just want a bare minimums policy, since I'm a young, single, healthy guy.

      Outside the ACA marketplace, the cheapest plan I could get was $55/month. With the ACA, the cheapest I can get is $260.

      Now, that'll probably be subsidized, but that just means someone else is paying the insurance company. Although, with the news laws the ACA plans are a lot better than that $55 plan.

      As someone who rarely goes to the doctor, I wish I didn't have to pay so much.
      The ACA was written by the health care industry for the health care industry, it will increase profits for insurance companies and health care providers because that was its purpose.

      If this is wrong, someone show me how any of this benefits anyone in the poor or middle class - the "99%"

      ...and what about the security issues, I don't want to go near that website until some holes are plugged - and according to many online security experts, that will not be anytime soon. Have a bunch of hackers get access to all my personal information? Not if I can help it.

      Originally Posted by cnbc.com

      It could take a year to secure the risk of "high exposures" of personal information on the federal Obamacare online exchange, a cybersecurity expert told CNBC on Monday.
      "When you develop a website, you develop it with security in mind. And it doesn't appear to have happened this time," said David Kennedy, a so-called "white hat" hacker who tests online security by breaching websites. He testified on Capitol Hill about the flaws of HealthCare.gov last week.

      "It's really hard to go back and fix the security around it because security wasn't built into it," said Kennedy, chief executive of TrustedSec. "We're talking multiple months to over a year to at least address some of the critical-to-high exposures on the website itself."
      No security ever built into Obamacare site: Hacker
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        A lot of people don't know what their insurance won't cover until they're hit with it.
        True to a point - but they know what their deductible is.

        I have to wonder whether your nephew has secured the insurance (paid for it) yet. At work, a friend's son got a similar low quote - he's 30 and under employed and a part time student. She was bragging about it and so happy with the ACA - and then he learned the quote was wrong, the subsidy he was quoted was wrong. Now she's mad as a wet hen about it because his cost is considerably higher and he's chosen to pay the penalty instead.

        For some people it's a frustration to see the costs skyrocket - some families will need to cut back on other parts of the budget to afford insurance.

        BUT - there will be many families who simply cannot pay the additional cost even with the so-called "subsidies". I've also found people who think the "subsidy" is money that will be paid to them - they are in for a surprise.

        Personally, I think we've gotten ourselves into a hot mess and I'm not sure how we are going to get out of it in one piece. I worry the problems we've seen so far are only a snapshot of what's to come.

        Costs of the ACA site? Provided by DHS today as $677 million with another $171 million being allocated on top of that.

        I think many more doctors will go into concierge practices and fee-for-service practices and avoid insurance altogether. That's what I would do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Not trying to step on any toes here but I have a feeling this thread (which has a potential to be a very informative and educational thread) would be deleted because of people's political gripes.

    Let's try to keep the politics out of it please as it's not allowed on any of the main sub-forums and try to get some useful information out of this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Not trying to step on any toes here but I have a feeling this thread (which has a potential to be a very informative and educational thread) would be deleted because of people's political gripes.

      Let's try to keep the politics out of it please as it's not allowed on any of the main sub-forums and try to get some useful information out of this.

      I agree, I think it will get ugly in here fast because of people's political gripes. When it comes to healthcare, I think there is only one winner, and that is the insurance companies.

      If people can find good health insurance at a decent price, good for them.
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  • Profile picture of the author drr
    I'm in the UK. Thank heavens for the NHS...
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    my comments were deleted. LOL, so its "political" only if you have criticisms of the ACA where someone is cheering about low rates, without the details, and with subsidies which are on the backs of everyone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    High deductible or not...if he should suddenly find himself with a serious illness or in a car accident at least he'll have coverage. It's still better than no coverage at all. IMHO

    As someone who suffers with a pre-existing condition I know how hard it is to get coverage once you have a problem. In the past, it was basically impossible unless you had group coverage.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      High deductible or not...if he should suddenly find himself with a serious illness or in a car accident at least he'll have coverage. It's still better than no coverage at all. IMHO
      What "coverage" are you talking about? I mean, if a college kid makes $8000/year, has no savings, and buys a policy with a $12K deductible, what "coverage" is he going to have if he's in a serious accident of some sort? The insurance wouldn't kick in until the $12K deductible is met, which, in this case would be never.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        What "coverage" are you talking about? I mean, if a college kid makes $8000/year, has no savings, and buys a policy with a $12K deductible, what "coverage" is he going to have if he's in a serious accident of some sort? The insurance wouldn't kick in until the $12K deductible is met, which, in this case would be never.
        You don't know any more than I know what the deductible is. He's far from a stupid kid and would have paid the penalty rather than pay for a useless policy. He was surprised at the amount and expected more.

        As for has no savings ... his mother's a millionaire at least one time over, so he's good to go in case of a real emergency.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Your insurance must work different than mine. If I get a bill from the hospital for $100,000 than my insurance will still pay their part. The hospital will bill me for what they don't pay which would be the $12,000 deductible and maybe another 20%. Which is still a whole lot less than the the $100,000.

    Plus, if you have insurance of some sort, the hospital is more apt to work with you on a payment plan than when you have no insurance at all. Again, just my personal experience having been through it both ways. Perhaps your experience is different.

    I know my diabetes doctor won't even see a patient who doesn't have insurance. It doesn't have to be good insurance. You can have a wad of cash and he won't take you as a client without insurance.

    Rose
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    What "coverage" are you talking about? I mean, if a college kid makes $8000/year, has no savings, and buys a policy with a $12K deductible, what "coverage" is he going to have if he's in a serious accident of some sort? The insurance wouldn't kick in until the $12K deductible is met, which, in this case would be never.
    I understand everything you are saying, it will be impossible to reach the 12k deductible at $16/month, but who ever said he had a 12k deductible? Suzzane said she doesn't know what his deductible is.

    "Like I said, I don't know the details of his policy and what the deductible is and how much is subsidized, etc. I assume that he feels it will benefit him. Otherwise he would just pay the penalty rather than signing up"
    You better not let Pres Obama read that ^^^, i'm fairly sure he thinks he (with help from others) wrote the ACA.....
    All laws are written by Lobbyist, that's why we have laws that benefit these big multinational companies, the ACA is no different
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      I understand everything you are saying, it will be impossible to reach the 12k deductible at $16/month, but who ever said he had a 12k deductible? Suzzane said she doesn't know what his deductible is.

      Sounds like you're getting upset over this thread
      No ... not at all really. Just relaying the info my brother told me about his son's experience with ACA. I haven't signed up myself, although I may, so I don't know from personal experience what's available.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        No ... not at all really. Just relaying the info my brother told me about his son's experience with ACA. I haven't signed up myself, although I may, so I don't know from personal experience what's available.
        I meant he was getting upset with others, I put that reply in the wrong place. You never said the kid had a 12k deductible

        If you feel it will benefit you, nobody has any business telling you what's good for you or not. Me and my family spend over 700/month on heath insurance, and I feel like I'm being screwed with no grease, just like the gas pump does to me everyday
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

          You never said the kid had a 12k deductible
          But she did say the rate was "under $200/yr". What kind of deductible do you think that gets you?
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

          I meant he was getting upset with others, I put that reply in the wrong place. You never said the kid had a 12k deductible

          If you feel it will benefit you, nobody has any business telling you what's good for you or not. Me and my family spend over 700/month on heath insurance, and I feel like I'm being screwed with no grease, just like the gas pump does to me everyday
          Where did I say I was upset? Doesn't affect me either way (I have employer-supplied coverage). Just healthy debate. Also, I don't think anyone in the thread told anyone else what was good for them? Maybe I missed it:confused:


          Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

          If I get a bill from the hospital for $100,000 than my insurance will still pay their part. The hospital will bill me for what they don't pay which would be the $12,000 deductible and maybe another 20%. Which is still a whole lot less than the the $100,000.
          Maybe so, but that $12K is still gonna bankrupt the kid that makes $7500 in an entire year. So again, what good was the $16/mo plan to him in such a scenario? That's really my only point.
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          • Profile picture of the author Coby
            Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

            Maybe so, but that $12K is still gonna bankrupt the kid that makes $7500 in an entire year. So again, what good was the $16/mo plan to him in such a scenario? That's really my only point.
            Well, if he makes $7500 in a year then he is below the poverty level and should qualify for medicaid and similar programs...

            In order to get a subsidy you must make between 100-400% of the poverty level.

            Which is roughly about $12,000 - $40,000 per year... (for an individual, they are higher for families)

            To put things in perspective. My cousin was able to qualify for $174 a month subsidy while making roughly $17,000 a year...

            The end result was he was able to get a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan for $0.01 a month (yes a penny)...

            His deductible and out of pocket maximum are both $6,000. While this is not "much" better than having no insurance, it does give him something to work with if he were to get into an accident. I helped him look over the plans and after his deductible is met he is in the clear for the rest of his bills.

            It seems you are "luckier" than most since you mentioned that you can get health coverage from your employer. In my cousin's case he owns a small welding company. He can't afford health care otherwise, but he can afford 12 cents a year with the maximum being $6,000 (which he could make small payments on).

            I think you should do a little bit more research to understand how it all works and not just make assumptions. I'm glad you've never had to experience a situation like this, but you should be a little more open minded to the whole situation.

            Your argument is that they will go bankrupt over $12,000 - maybe they will - maybe they won't. But I think that we can both agree that if was $120,000 instead then the likely hood of growing bankrupt is exponentially higher.

            Also, the simple fact of "having insurance" can lead to getting help that wouldn't be available otherwise.

            A few years ago my girlfriend broke her ankle and had to have surgery to put in a metal plate... It was nearly impossible to get any help since she didn't have any insurance and the Foot Doctor told her point blank that if she can't come up with the money he couldn't (and wouldn't) do the surgery...

            She was almost forced to live the rest of her life with a "lame leg" because she didn't have the means to pay. We were still both in college at this time and we were lucky to be able to raise enough funds to pay for half of the surgery while financing the rest, but it took a lot of convincing and if it wasn't a "small town" the doctor might not have even been willing to do that...

            Bottom line is any insurance is better than no insurance.

            Cheers,
            Coby
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      I understand everything you are saying, it will be impossible to reach the 12k deductible at $16/month, but who ever said he had a 12k deductible? Suzzane said she doesn't know what his deductible is.
      I was using $12K as an example. Based on the comment that the premium was $16/month, even if subsidized, it can be safely assumed that the deductible isn't going to be low.

      Lets use different numbers instead. Kid makes $7500/yr ("starving college kid" at minimum wage at 20 hrs/wk). Deductible of $5000/yr. Kid gets in car crash and is hospitalized for a month. Where is he going to find the money to cover his deductible?

      Again, my only intent was to point out that "got a great rate and is now covered" isn't necessarily what it seems when you think it through and factor everything else in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    Lets use different numbers instead. Kid makes $7500/yr ("starving college kid" at minimum wage at 20 hrs/wk). Deductible of $5000/yr. Kid gets in car crash and is hospitalized for a month. Where is he going to find the money to cover his deductible?
    From family and friends, maybe sell some assets, borrow some money, who knows. Thousands of people face this problem everyday in this country, not everybody has a 12k deductible handy

    But she did say the rate was "under $200/yr". What kind of deductible do you think that gets you?
    I agree it is probably going to be big, but it's a start. I applaud the kid for getting his own heath insurance, because if he doesn't, then taxpayers pick 100% of the bill.

    What heath care plan people chose is not the problem, it is the 5 cent piece of Tylenol being sold for $5
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      From family and friends, maybe sell some assets, borrow some money, who knows. Thousands of people face this problem everyday in this country, not everybody has a 12k deductible handy
      And that's exactly my point. The $16/month plan is virtually useless if this is what the kid has to resort to.

      "got a great rate and is now covered" does not equal " borrow from family and friends, maybe sell some assets, borrow some money"

      Yes, I applaud him. Nobody is disparaging him. Simply pointing out that the initial comment isn't entirely accurate when you play things out to the conclusion. That's all.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        And that's exactly my point. The $16/month plan is virtually useless if this is what the kid has to resort to.

        "got a great rate and is now covered" does not equal " borrow from family and friends, maybe sell some assets, borrow some money"

        Yes, I applaud him. Nobody is disparaging him. Simply pointing out that the initial comment isn't entirely accurate when you play things out to the conclusion. That's all.
        Sorry ... but in reality, hospital bills can go up into the hundreds of thousands for catastrophic illness. If the deductible were $12,000, that's pocket change in comparison. His Mom would write a check out for that in about 60 seconds ... Boom ... deductible gone and insurance kicks in.
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Sorry ... but in reality, hospital bills can go up into the hundreds of thousands for catastrophic illness. If the deductible were $12,000, that's pocket change in comparison. His Mom would write a check out for that in about 60 seconds ... Boom ... deductible gone and insurance kicks in.
          Well, if mom's a millionaire, that's great. But, it's really not relevant to the general discussion at hand since that's the exception, not the rule. Not everyone has a millionaire mom.

          Furthermore, what is the difference between hundreds of thousands of dollars versus $12K for the "starving student" who can't afford much more than raman noodles for dinner?? In reality, the end result is all the same - the cost would bankrupt him either way unless mom is a millionaire.

          You seem to be getting worked up. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm simply pointing out that the math doesn't work in this case (unless mom is a millionaire).
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          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
            Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

            Furthermore, what is the difference between hundreds of thousands of dollars versus $12K for the "starving student" who can't afford much more than raman noodles for dinner?? In reality, the end result is all the same - the cost would bankrupt him either way unless mom is a millionaire.
            Like Rose said, the hospital will work with people and the insurance pays after amounts over "12k" but they don't require the "kid" to pay it before they will pay their portion.

            -g
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    I stand by my thought that some insurance is better than none. Is it better to have good insurance with a low deductible? Of course, but I know people trying to pay off huge hospital bills who would be thrilled to be paying off $12,000.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      I stand by my thought that some insurance is better than none.
      And you are entitled to that thought. However, the math does not support it when the deductible involved is more than someone can afford.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    So they are better off with no insurance? And owning a bill of hundreds of thousand of dollars instead of their deductible?
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      So they are better off with no insurance? And owning a bill of hundreds of thousand of dollars instead of their deductible?
      I didn't say that at all. I'm saying that a person who would be bankrupted by $12K in medical bills (in this example) isn't going to get much use out of a $16/month policy with a $12K deductible.

      Do you disagree with the above statement? If so, why?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    "got a great rate and is now covered" does not equal " borrow from family and friends, maybe sell some assets, borrow some money"
    That is an option, the kid could already have 12k saved up.

    Also there is nothing wrong with borrowing, selling assets, people do it every single day. Their other option? sit there and die. It doesn't matter if you need a 100k surgery and your deductible is 50k, you already won half the battle right there.

    People are sent home to die every single day, simply because they don't have health insurance. I pay over $700/month for health insurance, and I KNOW, if the day comes where I need cancer treatments or something major, my insurance company is going to show me the door also.

    Unless your health insurance doesn't have any fine print whatsoever, there is always a chance you will get stuck with ginormous bill or deductible.

    Sorry ... but in reality, hospital bills can go up into the hundreds of thousands for catastrophic illness. If the deductible were $12,000, that's pocket change in comparison.
    I agree, 12k is a drop in the bucket compared to the outrageous cost of health care
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      That is an option, the kid could already have 12k saved up.
      OP described him as a "starving student" so, no, savings is probably not something that is in play here.

      There is nothing wrong with borrowing, selling assets, people do it every single day.
      Nobody said there was anything wrong with it.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        Well, if mom's a millionaire, that's great. But, it's really not relevant to the general discussion at hand since that's the exception, not the rule. Not everyone has a millionaire mom.

        Furthermore, what is the difference between hundreds of thousands of dollars versus $12K for the "starving student" who can't afford much more than raman noodles for dinner?? In reality, the end result is all the same - the cost would bankrupt him either way unless mom is a millionaire.

        You seem to be getting worked up. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm simply pointing out that the math doesn't work in this case (unless mom is a millionaire).
        If you can't see the difference between owing $12K and owing $200,000K, well, what can I say? An ingenious person can come up with 12K fairly easily. Coming up with hundreds of thousands is a whole different ballgame.
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          If you can't see the difference between owing $12K and owing $200,000K, well, what can I say? An ingenious person can come up with 12K fairly easily. Coming up with hundreds of thousands is a whole different ballgame.
          Yes, an ingenious person may be able to scratch up $12K. Are you equating a starving college kid with a genius?

          If $12K is not a debt a college kid can afford to pay, how (in practice) is it any different than $100K? The bottom line is both will often lead to financial ruin, no?

          A $12K debt does not equal a $100K EXCEPT for when debtor cannot afford even the $12K debt. I'm not sure what you are failing to understand about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    I'm just not understanding your math. $12,000 = hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    I've paid off over $12,000 in medical bills as a near starving single mom. It can be done. I could not have paid off thousands of dollars.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      I'm just not understanding your math. $12,000 = hundreds of thousands of dollars.

      I've paid off over $12,000 in medical bills as a near starving single mom. It can be done. I could not have paid off thousands of dollars.

      Rose
      ????

      Little Johnny makes $6500/yr AFTER TAXES
      Little Johnny gets in car accident and racks up $100K in medical bills
      Little Johnny's policy includes a $12K deductible
      Insurance pays $88K and sends bill to Little Johnny for $12K
      Little Johnny owes $40k in student loans & mom is not a millionaire
      Little Johnny has a small car payment
      Little Johnny has utilities to pay
      Little Johhny cannot afford the $12K so he files BK.

      How would the above change if he had no insurance at all? Answer? it wouldn't. End result would still be financial ruin either way.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        ????

        Little Johnny makes $6500/yr AFTER TAXES
        Little Johnny gets in car accident and racks up $100K in medical bills
        Little Johnny's policy includes a $12K deductible
        Insurance pays $88K and sends bill to Little Johnny for $12K
        Little Johnny owes $40k in student loans & mom is not a millionaire
        Little Johnny has a small car payment
        Little Johnny has utilities to pay
        Little Johhny cannot afford the $12K so he files BK.

        How would the above change if he had no insurance at all? Answer? it wouldn't. End result would still be financial ruin either way.
        Little Johnny gets a second job to pay off $12K. Makes payments and has it paid off in a year or two.
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        • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Little Johnny gets a second job to pay off $12K. Makes payments and has it paid off in a year or two.
          While already going to school and working? Your initial post indicated he was a starving college kid. That tells me he is already stretched for time. Otherwise, he'd already be working two jobs so he was no longer "starving".
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Yes, I disagree. For the reasons I've stated above. You would still only be left with a $12,000 bill that you could make payments on....as I did, as a single mom. It didn't bankrupt me. A bill for thousands of dollars would have. It's not impossible to raise money to pay off $12,000. A student working a summer job could pay a chunk of it.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      A student working a summer job could pay a chunk of it.
      Student in this case is barely making ends meet to begin with (as stated by OP). This implies he is already working as much as he can and still struggles. Where do you suppose he fits in more time to work even more hours without affecting his schoolwork?
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

        Student in this case is barely making ends meet to begin with (as stated by OP). This implies he is already working as much as he can and still struggles. Where do you suppose he fits in more time to work even more hours without affecting his schoolwork?
        People do what they have to do. I had a full time career and a nearly full time college load. He has plenty of time for an additional job if he needed to have one. People do this stuff all the time. Work more to pay bills.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    I didn't say that at all. I'm saying that a person who would be bankrupted by $12K in medical bills (in this example) isn't going to get much use out of a $16/month policy with a $12K deductible.

    Do you disagree with the above statement? If so, why?
    People go bankrupt every day over medical bills, it is as common as flies on a pile of dog scat.

    Also what happens if the kid got in a major accident, and needs a whole alot of surgery and rehabilitation? then that 12k deductible is going to get a whole alot of use

    You are talking as if 12k is a boat load of money, and it is for many of us, but when it comes to health care cost's, it chump change
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      You are talking as if 12k is a boat load of money
      It is for a college kid with very little income, no?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Is he going to get out of college someday and get a job? I've had medical bills that it took me years to pay. But he'll be better off still paying off that $12,000 debt after college even if it's $25 a month...than trying to pay off $200,000.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      Is he going to get out of college someday and get a job? I've had medical bills that it took me years to pay. But he'll be better off still paying off that $12,000 debt after college even if it's $25 a month...than trying to pay off $200,000.

      Rose
      My point is that in most cases, the debt is not going to be repaid either way. Alex Blades mentioned the same further up - people file BK for medical bills all the time. At $25/month, it would take 40 years to pay back the $12K - do you think that's really gonna work out??
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    Little Johnny gets a second job to pay off $12K. Makes payments and has it paid off in a year or two.
    Lol, it will take his entire life to pay off that 12k debt (sarcasm of course)

    If you can't see the difference between owing $12K and owing $200,000K, well, what can I say? An ingenious person can come up with 12K fairly easily. Coming up with hundreds of thousands is a whole different ballgame.
    Can't help but think about a fellow warrior who is trying his best to raise 100k to have a life saving surgery in another country. I think the U.S is the greatest country in the world, but man does our healthcare need a complete overhaul :/

    It is for a college kid with very little income, no?
    Honestly Wolf, I think if he can afford college, he can afford to pay off 12k. His debt from his first year in college alone, will be more than 12k
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    It's been fun folks but I have to jet for my kid's winter concert. Later...
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    What is missing in the entire discussion is actually how to delivery healthcare more effectively and efficiently. The only discussion has been who pays, pointing fingers and dividing the country all in the guise of "fairness". It is ultimately not sustainable no matter who pays if we don't focus on better healthcare, more efficiently, which should include a big does of prevention. (penny wise, pound foolish) DC only knows one thing, to throw billions and trillions at something, with no emphasis on actual improvement and real results.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by NewParadigm View Post

      What is missing in the entire discussion is actually how to delivery healthcare more effectively and efficiently. The only discussion has been who pays, pointing fingers and dividing the country all in the guise of "fairness". It is ultimately not sustainable no matter who pays if we don't focus on better healthcare, more efficiently, which should include a big does of prevention. (penny wise, pound foolish) DC only knows one thing, to throw billions and trillions at something, with no emphasis on actual improvement and real results.
      No actually, that's not what is missing in this conversation. This thread could disappear at any time simply because the ACA is mentioned. Entrepreneurs should be able to discuss health care insurance without assmonkeys making it political.

      We are the consumers and we do not "deliver healthcare". The gov and insurers do that and you are trying very hard to turn this into a political discussion.
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    • Profile picture of the author edwin3145
      Originally Posted by NewParadigm View Post

      What is missing in the entire discussion is actually how to delivery healthcare more effectively and efficiently. The only discussion has been who pays, pointing fingers and dividing the country all in the guise of "fairness". It is ultimately not sustainable no matter who pays if we don't focus on better healthcare, more efficiently, which should include a big does of prevention. (penny wise, pound foolish) DC only knows one thing, to throw billions and trillions at something, with no emphasis on actual improvement and real results.
      Thank you!

      $83,046 For A 3 Hour Hospital Visit – Why Are Hospital Bills So Outrageous?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Another important point -- say his medical costs have reached $200,000 but he still needs further care. Do you think he'll be more likely to get further medical care if is insurance is paying everything over $12,000? Or if the cost are all falling on him? I know that different hospitals have different policies regarding this -- but I think it's naive to think he doesn't stand a better chance of continuing to get care with some sort of insurance than he would be without. Even if he eventually went bankrupt because of the $12,000 -- he'd still be more likely to get the care he needs.

    Rose
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rose Anderson View Post

      Another important point -- say his medical costs have reached $200,000 but he still needs further care. Do you think he'll be more likely to get further medical care if is insurance is paying everything over $12,000? Or if the cost are all falling on him? I know that different hospitals have different policies regarding this -- but I think it's naive to think he doesn't stand a better chance of continuing to get care with some sort of insurance than he would be without. Even if he eventually went bankrupt because of the $12,000 -- he'd still be more likely to get the care he needs.

      Rose
      See this guy ... A Warrior who has insurance coverage ... probably at much higher cost than my nephew. Guess what? It isn't going to save him.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ent-helps.html

      It won't cover what he needs to stay alive so we're trying to raise funds for him to "buy" a kidney in Mexico for around $135K.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        See this guy ... A Warrior who has insurance coverage ... probably at much higher cost than my nephew. Guess what? It isn't going to save him.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ent-helps.html

        It won't cover what he needs to stay alive so we're trying to raise funds for him to "buy" a kidney in Mexico for around $135K.
        I understand...that's why I said "more likely" to get the care he needs. It's a scary thing either way. I've just been through medical crisis with insurance and without -- and with was always better. Even when the plans were bad. But again, that's just my personal experience. Rose
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    I see you guys are back at it again lol, atleast it hasn't gotten to the point of name calling, which is good.

    You don't like ACA. We get it. Don't use it.
    I get the same feeling that he doesn't, but that is fine, there is nothing wrong with that
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

      I see you guys are back at it again lol, atleast it hasn't gotten to the point of name calling, which is good.

      I get the same feeling that he doesn't, but that is fine, there is nothing wrong with that
      I don't care about ACA nor have I once mentioned it. sbucciarel is the only one here defensive about it. She likes it. That's cool. It doesn't affect me one bit.
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    Folks, let me be clear. I am NOT arguing AGAINST having health insurance. That would be ridiculous. My only point all along is that the statement "he got a great rate and is now covered" is relative and not necessarily accurate because of the reasons I've outlined.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

      Folks, let me be clear. I am NOT arguing AGAINST having health insurance. That would be ridiculous. My only point all along is that the statement "he got a great rate and is now covered" is relative and not necessarily accurate because of the reasons I've outlined.
      ..and we've noted your opinion. He has insurance where he had NO health insurance before. He's happy.

      Tim had health insurance before (the expensive no coverage kind) and has to buy a kidney in Mexico to survive.
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      • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        ..and we've noted your opinion. He has insurance where he had NO health insurance before. He's happy.

        Tim had health insurance before (the expensive no coverage kind) and has to buy a kidney in Mexico to survive.
        Some of you HAVE noted my opinion; however, some haven't. Hence, I've reiterated it.

        As for the no coverage kind of insurance Tim has - agreed - it's useless. That's been my point all along; hence, my skepticism of a plan that costs $16/month and interest in its deductible (and coverage, for that matter).

        It's quite possible that the plan your nephew purchased through ACA (now that you mentioned it) is a similar plan to Tim's.

        For the record, availability of a kidney for Tim has nothing to do with insurance.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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          Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

          sbucciarel is the only one here defensive about it.

          For the record, availability of a kidney has nothing to do with insurance unless you are saying one was made available for him but he couldn't afford it.
          His insurance won't cover it and I'm not defensive about it. You're arguing with made up deductibles and arguments that just don't reflect reality, IMHO. You have no idea what deductible or coverage he has gotten, so the argument that he'll never afford the deductible and won't have any coverage is false.

          I've just been shopping on the ACA site for the state of VA ... the highest deductible is $6,030. Most are much lower than that one. There are a lot of different plans, all from highly recognized insurers. The monthly rates are "before" subsidies.

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          • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            His insurance won't cover it and I'm not defensive about it. You're arguing with made up deductibles and arguments that just don't reflect reality, IMHO. You have no idea what deductible or coverage he has gotten, so the argument that he'll never afford the deductible and won't have any coverage is false
            A. I never said your nephew would never afford the deductibles so please stop putting words in my mouth. My point has always been a general reference.

            B. I used the $12k deductible as a hypothetical since it was (and still is) an unknown.

            C. How does the argument that a person who cannot afford a large deductible is likely to face financial ruin in the event of catastrophe NOT based on reality?

            D. Yes, you ARE being defensive. By going back after the fact and editing your responses, it indicates that you feel the need to continue defending even AFTER I said that if your nephew was able to get an affordable plan with a low deductible it was a win for him.

            My point stands. A person who is forced into BK due to a large unaffordable deductible is often in no better shape than the person with no insurance. They both are still filing a BK. Admittedly, the caveat in such a case would be a person requiring long term care. In that case, it becomes a different story.
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    That's great. If his plan offers a manageable deductible then he's in good shape. Your initial point of "great rate and now covered" was vague at best. I was simply pointing out that it may not necessarily be so great if there are large deductibles involved. If there are no large deductibles involved, then it's a win for your nephew.

    Although, the "starving student" comment makes me wonder how he didn't qualify for Medicaid instead.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

      That's great. If his plan offers a manageable deductible then he's in good shape. Your initial point of "great rate and now covered" was vague at best. I was simply pointing out that it may not necessarily be so great if there are large deductibles involved. If there are no large deductibles involved, then it's a win for your nephew.

      Although, the "starving student" comment makes me wonder how he didn't qualify for Medicaid instead.
      I use the term starving student because it's a well used term for students working their way through college. He is not starving. He eats like a horse. His mother just retired so he was dropped from his mother's insurance.

      I put in a guess of his income in the calculator to see what his subsidies would look like. I don't know his actual income, so it's a guess. Here's what the calculator said he would qualify for using my numbers, based on me knowing where he works and a general idea of his income.

      The calculator is supposed to give you an idea of the subsidy amount, but is not a final quote.

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  • Profile picture of the author SportsMarketer
    I may well need to look this over, my current insurance provider is dropping the old coverage I once had.

    I am also going to look at a HSA policy. Buying health insurance has become very time consuming and confusing.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Transcendence Media
    I'm a 30 year old nonsmoking male, and I saw almost no change in coverage (which was high before, but now is slightly over the minimum requirements) or premiums or deductible. I can't say I agree with forcing people to buy more insurance than they want, but due to my own experience I truly do believe that any increases in premiums people see will come hand in hand with increases in coverage.

    I still don't know why I'm covered for birth control pills, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
      Originally Posted by Transcendence Media View Post

      I'm a 30 year old nonsmoking male, and I saw almost no change in coverage (which was high before, but now is slightly over the minimum requirements) or premiums or deductible. I can't say I agree with forcing people to buy more insurance than they want, but due to my own experience I truly do believe that any increases in premiums people see will come hand in hand with increases in coverage.

      I still don't know why I'm covered for birth control pills, though.

      that would be gender discrimination if you werent covered for birth control or maternity/pregnancy! haha.
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      • Profile picture of the author Transcendence Media
        Originally Posted by NewParadigm View Post

        that would be gender discrimination if you werent covered for birth control or maternity/pregnancy! haha.
        I guess if the part of my premium that pays for those things is offsetting a woman's costs, I'm cool with that. Your gender shouldn't mean you get taxed more than someone of the other gender, and my understanding is that the Supreme Court said the AFA is technically a tax. I still don't think we should be forced to do it, even if it is a good idea. People have the right to make bad decisions.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Transcendence Media View Post

      I still don't know why I'm covered for birth control pills, though.
      Yeah ... I know. I feel the same way about having to pay for coverage for yall's nasty old prostrates. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author SportsMarketer
    After looking through all of this in detail today, it looks like to me the very best deal is to get a HSA. At least in my situation it is much cheaper and with good tax benefits as well. This has turned into quite an interesting thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    This is what makes these things interesting. It all depends on who benefits. Just wait til govt comes in with the AIMA, affordable internet marketing act and regulates rates charged to businesses by IMers. We'll see lots of hootin and hollerin then. LOL.
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    In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    and regulates rates charged to businesses by IMers
    That's nonsense, you are paranoid

    Someone told me the other day, the Government was buying all the bullets and humvee's so they can kick in our doors and takes our guns, said he heard it on the Patriot channel
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    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

    ~ Jeff Bezos

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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    I still dispute 12K being catastrophic debt. It is chump change,
    The average student loan debt is $29,400, I doubt 12k is going to send students rushing to bankruptcy court

    I would choose bankrupty over death or living with an severe injury any day of the week. Wouldn't you?
    Only a damn fool would go to their grave over a 12k debt, even the people against the 12k deductible would choose that over death any day

    As for the other discussions of government blah blah blah, I remind you that politics is not allowed, so try not to get the thread deleted just so you can air your political opinions on health insurance.
    That's what's wrong with this country, it has turned into one of the biggest gangs in the world, you are either for the left, or the right. I don't have that problem, I stay in the middle like a spinner toy, and can fall left or right, but If I don't agree with either side, I stay my ass in the middle
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    " I knew that if I failed, I wouldn't regret that.
    But I knew the one thing I might regret is not ever having tried. "

    ~ Jeff Bezos

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