Anyone Else Hate Webinars

47 replies
Is there anyone else that hates webinars?

I just don't have the time to sit through an hour while waiting for the pitch. I would much rather scan through a website or PDF and see if the info has value. If it is useful, then I might buy.

I guess people are selling through them, otherwise they wouldn't do them...
#webinars
  • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
    Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

    Is there anyone else that hates webinars?

    I just don't have the time to sit through an hour while waiting for the pitch. I would much rather scan through a website or PDF and see if the info has value. If it is useful, then I might buy.

    I guess people are selling through them, otherwise they wouldn't do them...
    Then don't.

    There ya go, problem solved.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Martel
      Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

      Then don't.

      There ya go, problem solved.
      I thought this was a discussion forum not a snide comment forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

        I thought this was a discussion forum not a snide comment forum.
        Oh you don't come down to the OT often, do ya?

        I don't like webinars in general, either. If it's at all related to selling anything - give me text. There are times, though, that if I need to know something I'll listen to a webinar. Not sure when it's informational rather than sales that it's still called a webinar, though.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

        I thought this was a discussion forum not a snide comment forum.
        New, here?

        How'd I do???

        Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

    Is there anyone else that hates webinars?

    I just don't have the time to sit through an hour while waiting for the pitch. I would much rather scan through a website or PDF and see if the info has value. If it is useful, then I might buy.

    I guess people are selling through them, otherwise they wouldn't do them...
    As time goes on, I am less and less likely to watch or listen to a webinar... even ones I've paid for. And I've seen little evidence the webinars are actually providing enough value in exchange for my time.

    Kind of like telemarketing. Quite a few people rave about how easy it is to get prospects while totally ignoring how many people are driven to looking at the promoters as people who belong in the insane asylum.

    Oh wait, we aren't supposed to consider any downsides or collateral damage.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author azgold
    Webinars and offline meetings...hate them, unless the speaker is someone that I'd really to hear, which rarely happens.

    Meetings have always felt like such a huge time suck to me. I could be getting some work done and I'm usually thinking about everything I have to do while I'm in a meeting, anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
      I'd prefer a short video seminar, but the longer ones seem more like selling the sizzle so you buy an expensive steak to get the rest of the information. After 10 or 15 minutes, I lose interest and I really prefer a pdf I can read.

      Oh, and the video form of seminar I can't stop for a while or fast forward make me livid!
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I also like to have quick access to written documentation. A similar annoyance is going to a page about a project and having to watch a video to get to the point. Sometimes, even if I want to watch a webinar, I can't when people around me want to listen to music or whatever. Or maybe I want access to written documentation as I watch a webinar.
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  • Profile picture of the author znan
    I hate webinars. But I enjoy replays, so I can skip to the parts that matter. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Martel
    Good to know that I am not the only one. I really wonder what the conversion rate is on most of them.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

      Good to know that I am not the only one. I really wonder what the conversion rate is on most of them.
      I'd suppose that if you have enough charisma it would be pretty high percent of people you could actually entice to watch the whole thing. Probably could become astronomical if you can get them to come back for a few sequels. Face it - it's TV (for all psychological purposes anyhow). You're either a freakin' star or you're not.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

      I thought this was a discussion forum not a snide comment forum.
      I forgot to add the smiley icon so that you knew I was just joking around.
      I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor ...

      Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

      Good to know that I am not the only one. I really wonder what the conversion rate is on most of them.
      It depends on the relationship the host(s) have with the viewers.
      I have seen them convert as high as 80%

      From my experience the average is around 35-45%.

      Those are of course the ones that provide real content for at least the first half
      and tie that content into the pitch for the second half.
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      • Profile picture of the author DABK
        It so happens that I've just developed a humor moisturizer. The webinar's coming soon. Wanna watch it?

        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor ...
        The problem with the webinars I've watched or tried to... people who make them get confused about how they work and how to use them... Very few are good enough that I don't mind watching them beginning to end... They are good either because they're giving me info I find valuable, they're entertaining, or a combo.

        A lot of the people who put out webinars seem so afraid they're giving away the farm, they end up convincing you they don't even know what a farm is, let alone have one. Others are so afraid they have not established themselves as 'experts' that they drone on and on and on about who they are and why you should listen to them... Sometimes, when they end talking about the reason you decided to request the webinar, they're ok or great. Sometimes, they're only good at saying they're great.
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  • Profile picture of the author beasty513
    Webinars are like really long, drawn out pitch.

    They never give you the main points

    for quite a while....
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  • Profile picture of the author TripBuilder Media
    I also hate webinars they discuss a long and long but not on the point discussion
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  • Profile picture of the author AlanCarr
    I loathe the things, and consider them the worst of all options.

    In a real meet-up you can mingle with others, form relationships, and really get the buzz from it.

    Online you can skip boring bits, copy and paste important text, cross-reference and search terms or names and so on, at your own pace, in whatever order you like etc.

    A webinar gives you neither of those, but DOES force you to "be there", to the exclusion of all other things, at a fixed time. Once there, even when sitting at your Internet-connected PC which can do all sorts of amazing things, you just have to sit there dumbly, like you were watching TV.

    Oh sure, in theory you can rudely interrupt and ask questions, or wait until asked to ask, which could be hours from now... And who's to say they'll answer YOUR questions, as opposed to the hired shills in the "audience"?

    Even if they do take questions, that also means sitting there listening to every retard with a dumb question, while busting to get your own smart question or questions answered

    Wait, it gets worse - the majority of webinars are bad, really bad. Long, dragged-out snoozefests, often with technical issues (for example you can't even hear the retard's questions, but still have to listen to the carefully explained answers...). They usually spend more time hyping the presenters and making blatantly false claims of expertise, experience and success than they do offering anything actually useful.

    Basically I hate the things, to the point I actually consider them a mild insult to the prospective customer.

    On the flipside, from the marketer's point of view, they're a great money spinner.

    They work like gangbusters on the right audience, as you create a (somewhat false) sense of urgency, expertise, social acceptance, celebrity status and so on, while making full use of various other psychological triggers.

    The net result is they are easy to sell - "An event (that hasn't even happened yet) is gonna be INCREDIBLE! Grab your spot now!"

    People buy the idea, because after all, you're gonna be there live, right? So it's not like you're gonna let us down or anything, right? Right?

    So when the day comes you have a bunch of hyped-up suckers, eager to hang on your every word, literally starry-eyes on your celebrity awesomeness... Even if 2/3 realize you're wasting their time for a long-winded sales pitch you can still end up with crazy-high conversion rates of 30% or more.

    Summary - most are badly done, giving the rest a bad name. Even when well-done, there's just no logical reason for them, from the prospects point of view. You can answer questions via email for example, and "live discussions" rarely provide as much value as a well-written book. From the marketer's point of view they're amazing; rarely will you ever get such a primed and ready-to-buy bunch of people as webinar attendees. The return on investment can be sky high.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by AlanCarr View Post

      In a real meet-up you can mingle with others, form relationships, and really get the buzz from it.

      Online you can skip boring bits, copy and paste important text, cross-reference and search terms or names and so on, at your own pace, in whatever order you like etc.

      A webinar gives you neither of those, but DOES force you to "be there", to the exclusion of all other things, at a fixed time. Once there, even when sitting at your Internet-connected PC which can do all sorts of amazing things, you just have to sit there dumbly, like you were watching TV.

      Oh sure, in theory you can rudely interrupt and ask questions, or wait until asked to ask, which could be hours from now... And who's to say they'll answer YOUR questions, as opposed to the hired shills in the "audience"?

      Even if they do take questions, that also means sitting there listening to every retard with a dumb question, while busting to get your own smart question or questions answered
      Maybe so with a selling webinar...

      ...but I've run live online training sessions for nearly four years now and they are a paid service so the people who are joining the webinar are there to interact learn and discuss the topics being covered.

      They are live and the questions are answered live to camera.

      I don't type answers because we film our broadcasts with three cameras, pro-lighting and a few good microphones and the people watching appreciate the interaction.

      Not just the interaction with me but with the group who are members and enjoy engaging with each other much like people do here on the forum.

      It might be different if I was pitching products all the time.

      Occasionally there are product placements but these are usually clearly identified and only supplemental to the core of the presentation.

      I also run a combination live seminar with usually about 40 attendees physically at my client's location combined with anywhere up to 20-30 online attendees who are remotely located and cannot make the physical seminar.

      We have people managing the chat live with the online audience and also relaying questions to the seven or so presenters we have on the events.

      These run usually for up to 2 hours and there is no pitching although my clients do sell a $31K product and the seminar/webinar is a vital part of the equation when it comes to generating and attracting leads, educating those leads and providing value to the attendees.

      In the above example the seminars are part of a large and complex funnel that is aimed at keeping prospects engaged with the business until they are ready to convert and keeping them away from the competition.

      The "average" lead time from first contact to final conversion is usually around 8 months.

      In some circumstances the attendees are coming the the seminar or watching the webinar at either the beginning of their investigation into my client's services or they are at the end and now attend to take the final step and commit to the solution being offered.

      The feedback from attendees and from the statistical data we get from the analytics from the webinars is that there is high engagement.

      The chat logs also provide invaluable information and feedback that gets integrated into future presentations.

      Because the product my client delivers includes annual support we fully utilise both offline seminar and online webinars as a key component of the support program.

      Even so far as having people who are all at the same stage in their process meeting in groups of 6 with qualified medical advisors every six weeks throughout their contract.

      The company has a high number of referrals from active and past clients and when we invite past clients to present as guests in the seminars they all tend to say the same thing.

      "Once I was just like you...I watched a webinar and then I came to a seminar"

      This usually followed with "These people are like family"

      The reason that particular business gets these types of comments in there is no pitching only valuable information in their presentations that their competitors are too afraid to tell the prospects.

      For someone looking for a solution to their problems a webinar or seminar may provide those answers.

      If they then choose to support the presenter through purchasing their offers whether they are made during the presentation or later then I don't see any issue with that.

      There is a far wider application to webinars and seminars than to the "over-exposed" IM crowd.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    2013 thread -- I think these are getting bumped because they are more interesting topics than anything you find on the WF these days....
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Anyone Else Hate Webinars
    I've read nearly this entire thread and no one has stated the obvious...webinars that sell are designed for newbies. They are mesmerised by what they see as millionaire rock stars.

    Webinars work like gang-busters on the target market.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheGMa
    Hey Brent, Kay, Ozi (damn fine post, btw)

    Kay, you're right. Pulling up old threads from the archives out of sheer topic desperation.

    najibsuck, sorry to say, no progress. Things are the same now as then.

    I'm not a big webinar fan, either. These days, the only time I'll watch one is if (a) it is being held by a marketer I know and respect; (b) it's a no-pitch webinar; or (c) yeah, there's a gazillion dollar pitch at the end but I know that the first 3rd or quarter is going to be filled with very useful info.

    One of the best I attended was held by Anik Singal who devoted nearly an hour to the basics of copywriting. He was looking for coaching students at the time, and he was very serious about it. You had to be willing to travel to his office and work with his team. As I recall, he was also looking for interns.

    Anyway, I filled several long virtual post-its with fantastic info.

    You don't see too many of those.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean DeSilva
    My group seems evenly split on the convenience factor of a textbased or even audio product versus a webinar. The camp who likes webinars prefers a more social approach to their learning. Of course with webinars there is a Q&A component which can only be made cookie-cutter in the text documents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
      Originally Posted by Sean DeSilva View Post

      My group seems evenly split on the convenience factor of a textbased or even audio product versus a webinar. The camp who likes webinars prefers a more social approach to their learning. Of course with webinars there is a Q&A component which can only be made cookie-cutter in the text documents.
      First up ...Kay...I normally check dates of posts before posting...sleep deprived when I started posting to this thread again.

      As for "cookie cutter" Q & A.

      Several times now I've run webinars that have combined up to 7 segments that have been pre-recorded with live interactive chat both live to camera and live via written chat messages.

      The software for running these types of hybrid live and pre-recorded combos is readily available and it all depends on the presenters how they want to handle things.

      Multiple times both myself and clients have had live attendees on pre-recorded webinars with live interactive chat.

      In some circumstances we've switched out of a pre-recorded to a live Q&A or we've switched to topics that we've pre-recorded that live attendees have requested.

      It does take a bit of creative thinking how you can blend live and pre-recorded.

      Often we'll do a live intro with cut to pre-recorded and cut back to live for Q&A.

      You can even do pre-recorded questions edited in with live questions and the viewers have no clue that the "whole" experience isn't live.

      I'll often run hybrids when I've got to do a demonstration of a piece of equipment that has a computer interface.

      We shoot the software component and mix with the live machinery demo and so on.

      The more you get into the whole presentation options that are available to provide value to either paying members or prospects you start to push the envelope in relation to delivering your message.

      I have people in all time zones in my memberships.

      Every now and then I'll run live events in the middle of the night (MY TIME), the break of dawn, odd times just to keep all my members engaged.

      This is when the pre-recorded plus live comes into it's own.

      It may not be the same in IM now but I do remember once (4 years ago) when I was on a webinar with Chris Munch and we started having a conversation so not all IM webinars are cookie cut.

      Best regards,

      Ozi
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  • Profile picture of the author spazz896
    Wow, so many here hate webinars,

    Personally I love them, I get to interact with the speaker and get my questions asked.
    Normally it's webinars with technical stuff and I get to learn a lot.

    If it's just a sell-sell-sell webinar, I just leave and so I don't waste my time.

    Soon it's gonna to be VR webinars.... hahaha
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  • Profile picture of the author DeadRooster
    Sign up for a webinar and attend just long enough to set up your screen capture software.

    Next, download VLC media player and watch the webinar at 2x the speed.

    Skip over all the "Let me tell you a bit about myself" parts.

    Doing all this will get you through the webinar in a fraction of the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Wow, this is a 3 year old thread but I am going to post anyway.

    Most webinars don't sell anything and really give value. The good thing about them is that most of them are recorded and then posted for you to view at your own time. You can fast forward it, pause it, or come back later to watch it.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Yep, three year old thread, and my answer now is the same as it would have been then.

    I don't hate webinars. I hate poorly done or deceptive webinars. Same goes for audios, PDFs, long form sales letters or any other promotion.

    I know from experience that, regardless of what the presenter and their JV partners say, there's a pitch coming. Like a baseball batter, I get to choose whether I swing or not.

    I rarely attend live. I wait for the replay, then skip the first fourth because I know it's just the host and the presenter kissing each other's behinds. Once the meat starts, I pay attention. That's usually a fourth to a half of the webinar, and it determines what I do when the pitch starts.

    Keep in mind, whether viewing live or via replay, no one is holding a gun to your head to make you watch the whole thing. Instead of wasting a lot of psychic energy "hating webinars", just turn them off and do something more productive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Yep, three year old thread, and my answer now is the same as it would have been then.

      I don't hate webinars. I hate poorly done or deceptive webinars. Same goes for audios, PDFs, long form sales letters or any other promotion.

      I know from experience that, regardless of what the presenter and their JV partners say, there's a pitch coming. Like a baseball batter, I get to choose whether I swing or not.

      I rarely attend live. I wait for the replay, then skip the first fourth because I know it's just the host and the presenter kissing each other's behinds. Once the meat starts, I pay attention. That's usually a fourth to a half of the webinar, and it determines what I do when the pitch starts.

      Keep in mind, whether viewing live or via replay, no one is holding a gun to your head to make you watch the whole thing. Instead of wasting a lot of psychic energy "hating webinars", just turn them off and do something more productive.
      This reminds me of the "Wadsworth Constant" concerning Youtube videos. Basically, it's a tongue-in-cheek bit of advice that says you can skip the first 30% of any video on Youtube and not miss anything of value.

      Adjusting this advice for webinars, maybe we can call it the "McCabe Constant"?
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    • Profile picture of the author TrickyDick
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      I rarely attend live. I wait for the replay, then skip the first fourth because I know it's just the host and the presenter kissing each other's behinds.
      What I think is hilarious....

      They say, "Grab a pen and paper. We're going to cover a lot of ground."

      You look down after two hours.... You have one bullet point... Not because you missed anything.... There was nothing else said worth writing down! The rest was a reacharou..... I mean BS. :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by TrickyDick View Post

        What I think is hilarious....

        They say, "Grab a pen and paper. We're going to cover a lot of ground."

        You look down after two hours.... You have one bullet point... Not because you missed anything.... There was nothing else said worth writing down! The rest was a reacharou..... I mean BS. :-)
        ...then after an hour, I realize I know a lot more about the topic than the people giving the webinar.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve B
    I feel the same way about them today that I did back in the day when they started being used fairly regularly . . .


    If you like them, fine. If you don't like them, fine also.

    For the marketer, the takeaway is this:

    Provide multiple platforms for your offerings and products. Cater to the prospect or customer. Provide text, video and even audio. Let the prospect choose how to consume your content or products.

    Sure, it's more work. Often, that's the difference between being successful or not. Is this about you or is it about catering to the needs/likes/wants of your clientele?

    The best to all of you,

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author SiteNameSales
    Not exactly sure what makes this thread particularly interesting, so why not add my 2 cents...

    I posted a while back that I can't understand why marketers continue to use landing pages the length paper towel rolls. The answer was, for the most part, that they use them because they work.

    You have to place yourself in the mindset of a potential customer to appreciate many of the marketing tools now available and you have to appreciate the fact that many marketers are as guilty as any newbie when comes to bouncing from one bright, shiny marketing object to another.

    Instagram,Periscope, Meerkat, Blab, Snapchat and now Facebook streaming video. When will it all end?

    Personally, I like most of the webinars that I attend when they are a reasonable length. I always learn something. The better marketers offer a lot of value and it is comforting to hear a successful entrepreneur make their pitch.

    It takes a lot of skill to put on a good webinar and I appreciate that, just as I have in my youth appreciated those interminably long landing pages. Some of these folks are masters of their craft and I take my hat off to them.

    (Full Disclosure: Some of my best friends host webinars.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    How do you listen for that long?

    When I worked for big companies I had a reputation for not showing up at meetings unless the meeting was "mandatory" (and even then I'd try to wiggle out). I'd do about anything else I was asked to do - hated meetings. It got to be a joke various places - "tell her now because she won't be at the meeting"...

    I'm that way with webinars - I used to have the best of intentions - I'd sign up and SHOW up....and about 10-15 minutes in I'd go to the kitchen to make a sandwich....or I'd start reading something and totally tune out the "webinar person".

    I'm a fast reader - I can skim a document and know if I'm interested. To me videos are often a bore - webinars are a snooze.

    I know people put effort into their webinars. Now I've probably hurt some feelings and that would not have happened had people left this thread back in 2013 where it belonged. Come on, people...work with me here.
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  • Profile picture of the author gamn13
    Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

    Is there anyone else that hates webinars?

    I just don't have the time to sit through an hour while waiting for the pitch. I would much rather scan through a website or PDF and see if the info has value. If it is useful, then I might buy.

    I guess people are selling through them, otherwise they wouldn't do them...
    The funny thing about this post Mike, is that I bet a ton of people agree with you about this.

    If I ever get into webinar selling, I would test this concept. I've never seen it done before, and I bet it would pick up a few sales, that would other wise be missed because the person gets impatient or just doesnt have the time for the pitch.

    Very interesting...Were all marketers here right? read in between the lines guys, this could be a sales booster!
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  • Profile picture of the author katrim
    I found that doing house chores like cooking, laundry or ironing helps going through webinars much easier, without the annoying feeling that I'm actually wasting my time there.

    I'm an avid note-taker though and I could fill pages even if I'm hearing something for the 1593429th time.
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  • Profile picture of the author rjd1265
    I do them weekly for my product but they are more so for interacting and asking questions about my course. I dont do them to sell products to my students.

    I do that on my backend where they see it every day
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  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
    3 years late to the party, but hey! Still some stragglers.

    I love a good webinar. If I'm feeling like I'm pressed for time though for some reason or just waiting for one specific answer to something I have I will fire up the screen recording on my computer and let it do it's thing - and then go back and fast forward through.

    A lot of times I can get some good information and find a way to ditch the pitch at the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheGMa
    I agree with Jill, but I am also looking for good products to sell. I may not need the product for myself, but it may be a good product to showcase.

    If the webinar is extremely well done, I will go look to see what else the marketer has in his stable.

    -Annie
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Originally Posted by Mike Martel View Post

    Is there anyone else that hates webinars?
    I'd rather put mayonnaise on my cheeseburger than listen to another webinar that doesn't spit hot-fire info.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by Randall Magwood View Post

      I'd rather put mayonnaise on my cheeseburger than listen to another webinar that doesn't spit hot-fire info.
      I put mayonnaise on my cheeseburgers and will eat them while watching a webinar.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        I put mayonnaise on my cheeseburgers and will eat them while watching a webinar.
        My favorite burger spread - one part ketchup, one part mayo and a few drops of hot sauce. Hold the webinar...
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      • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
        Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

        I put mayonnaise on my cheeseburgers and will eat them while watching a webinar.
        Jill... that is so gross.
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  • Profile picture of the author MuscleMemory
    Ii know what you mean. I used to sign up and wait for the schedualed webinars, but not anymore. I find that most of them are for people that just entered the IM business. Just a huge video upsell letter.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheGMa
      Originally Posted by MuscleMemory View Post

      Ii know what you mean. I used to sign up and wait for the schedualed webinars, but not anymore. I find that most of them are for people that just entered the IM business. Just a huge video upsell letter.
      That depends on what kind of webinars you look for. F'rinstance, I attended an extremely useful AWeber webinar today. Learned a thing or two and was reminded of something I'd forgotten to add to my checklist.

      Training webinars are good, some better than others, and if I'm getting ready to deal with a certain phase of my business plan, I want all the training I can get because I have no desire to spend the next 2 years learning everything the hard way. There's an awful lot of damned fine free stuff out there.

      - Annie
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  • I think it depends on the person and the mood. The webinar sites that I like the most are the ones that provide transcript and audio files to go with the webinar. There are days when I have the time to watch the whole thing. Sometimes I just want to listen and read about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author jamescanz
    I love webinars...

    They are a great way to not only get people into your funnel, but offer higher priced systems / coaching, etc
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  • Profile picture of the author answergal
    I guess just about everybody assumes webinar means sales pitch.

    Yea, 90% of the time, that's the case.

    If it's really, really, really something I'm interested in, I'll put it on in the background of an Orphan Black re-run (assuming most webbies are clones of everybody else's)...

    BUT, like Oziboomer, I've been using webinars for trainings and masterminds for some time now. I LOVE them and so do my clients and "club" members.

    I even use them in my paid products b/c they are total 100% training and info, no backdumping allowed.

    So, hate the other guys... but love your own if you're doing them to build your business (not sell stuff).

    PS: I think selling stuff is fine, too, but do it right. I love that Jason Fladlien (probably the best webber out there) promotes his webinars as sales pitches that you don't want to miss, not only b/c he'll give you some great training (he always does), but also b/c the thing he's selling is really good (sometimes) and he keeps to under an hour (I guess). Mostly, though, he using them brilliantly to promote #1 himself... affiliate sale or no, you go away loving this guy (pretty much).
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