Flippa stealth price INCREASE

by Thomas Smale 71 replies
Flippa have been up to their old tricks again. Sent out a newsletter today saying they have dropped listing fees ($29 to $19 for established sites and domains down to $9), but for established sites they actually massively increased it (by removing the cap on success fees and doubling them for established sites).

A friend on another forum got a copy of the old cached price page so you can compare (I'm sure he won't mind me posting here):

Old pricing:



New pricing:




I also did some of the numbers so you can compare in real terms (I posted this elsewhere so this is a direct quote):

"This now means a $10k site costs $1019 to sell (assuming no upgrades) vs. the $529 before.

A $60k site now costs $6019 to sell vs $3029 before.

A $100k site now costs $10,019 to sell vs $3029 before.

TL;DR - if you're selling a site over $60k on Flippa it will now cost you AT LEAST double than it did before (getting proportionately more expensive). Sellers with a $100k site are now $6990 worse off. All Flippa have done here is killed their mid-5 figure and above market (which arguably they didn't have before anyway). Call me biased, but this is not one of Flippa's better ideas."

Interesting move by Flippa as it signals a refocus on new/unestablished sites and a move away from the higher end deals. It also continues their focus on domains which is one of the few Flippa success stories from 2013.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #flippa #increase #price #stealth
  • Profile picture of the author Shane F
    At that pricing structure you could hire a brick and mortar business broker seeing that they price their commission at 10% anything over 100K and 10K under 100K. Just a thought that could bring in a higher price and many are moving into online businesses especially those that sell a physical product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Smale
      Originally Posted by Shane F View Post

      At that pricing structure you could hire a brick and mortar business broker seeing that they price their commission at 10% anything over 100K and 10K under 100K. Just a thought that could bring in a higher price and many are moving into online businesses especially those that sell a physical product.
      Correct. You also have the option of a broker who specialises online (shameless plug!). Commission can vary with brokers, especially on smaller (<$200k) sites. Expect to pay 12-15% on smaller deals and 10% on larger ($500k+). Beware anyone charging less than that as they are probably desperate for business and not very good

      Using a B&M broker is also an option and they may be able to get you a higher multiple but it's unlikely you will get a highly qualified buyer with the ability to run an online business. Using an online specialist will put the business in front of buyers who actually know what they are doing with a website (albeit they may pay a slightly lower multiple than an offline guy used to paying more for B&Ms).

      And obviously, with a broker in general (whoever you use), you don't have to manage the whole process yourself like you would on Flippa and have to weed out tire-kicker buyers. For many, that alone is worth the broker fee. In general a broker will get you a better price than selling yourself as they will know the current market and the right buyers are to pitch to. Flippa has a lot more speculative buyers looking for a bargain vs. buyers willing to pay a fair multiple for a legitimate strategic acquisition.
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      I specialize in selling websites over $10,000 in value. No obligation, confidential valuation here.
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  • Profile picture of the author GamerZag
    If only there was a good broker who specialized in selling PC Gaming Software and could close a sale in a couple weeks

    Thomas, could you shoot me your Skype in a PM? You probably know who I am (secret please).
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I just got the email and laughed when I saw the success fees. Nice way to package a listing fee decrease, but overall increase when you factor in success fees.

    That whopping 15% success fee on brand new websites is going to raise your overall price once you sell for a few hundred, this is a price increase ... not a decrease:

    Listing fee for new websites $9
    Success fee for new websites 15.0%
    The success fee is paid by the seller when they make a successful sale.

    Your site has to sell for $200 or less, or your overall costs are higher due to that 15% success fee.

    On a $100 sale:
    $29 listing, $5 success fee = $34
    $9 listing, $15 success fee = $24

    On a $200 sale:
    $29 listing, $10 success fee = $39
    $9 listing, $30 success fee = $39

    On a $400 sale:
    $29 listing, $20 success fee = $49
    $9 listing, $60 success fee = $69

    On a $600 sale:
    $29 listing, $30 success fee = $59
    $9 listing, $90 success fee = $99

    The success fee for established sites is now 10% instead of 5%, so don't imagine that you're getting a good deal by paying $19 listing fee instead of $29.

    On Established Sites:

    On a $100 sale:
    $29 listing, $5 success fee = $34
    $19 listing, $15 success fee = $34

    On a $200 sale:
    $29 listing, $10 success fee = $39
    $19 listing, $30 success fee = $49

    On a $400 sale:
    $29 listing, $20 success fee = $49
    $19 listing, $60 success fee = $79

    On a $600 sale:
    $29 listing, $30 success fee = $59
    $19 listing, $109 success fee = $99
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  • Profile picture of the author tbcooke
    The decision to change our pricing structure didn't happen overnight, we've been receiving feedback for a considerable time (going back over years!) asking for lower up-front fees. The changes to the success fee has allowed us to do this, and if you compare Flippa to other similar major services and even brokers, our success fee or sales commission is still the cheapest or equal cheapest on the market.

    Broker fees can vary considerably, while most don't have an up-front fee the sales commission can sometimes be as high, or even higher than 20%. There is also no guarantee there won't be other fees along the way.

    Our high-end buyers can also use our Dealflow program which falls under a different pricing structure (no listing fee and a 10% success fee)
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      The decision to change our pricing structure didn't happen overnight, we've been receiving feedback etc. etc. etc.....
      Did you previously work for John Donehoe over at eBay?
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      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

      ― George Carlin
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      The decision to change our pricing structure didn't happen overnight, we've been receiving feedback for a considerable time (going back over years!) asking for lower up-front fees.
      So .... stop pretending it's a price decrease. Your audience isn't stupid and they can see it's obviously a price increase. Do what you want with your prices, but let's call a spade a spade.


      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      I'm not cheering the increase, but paying a 10-15% fee for putting basically no work into the sale itself isn't a bad deal.
      No work, huh. They only build and market the sites. That's all. Without the hard work of sellers, there wouldn't be a marketplace. Flippa provides the site to list. You have to do the copywriting and unless you buy several enhancements to your listing, no one ever even sees it, adding even more cost to the price of Flippa.
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    • Profile picture of the author GamerZag
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      we've been receiving feedback for a considerable time (going back over years!) asking for lower up-front fees. The changes to the success fee has allowed us to do this
      I'm going to have to call BS on this one. In fact, I'll even go so far as to call you a liar. I'll back up my claim with concrete evidence.

      Code:
      On a $100 sale:
      Before:  $29 listing, $5 success fee = $34
      After:   After:  $9 listing, $15 success fee = $24
       
       On a $200 sale:
      Before:  $29 listing, $10 success fee = $39
      After:   $9 listing, $30 success fee = $39
      According to what you've said, you have allowed your lowest tier customers to dictate your business plan (the customers selling websites for $100 (sub $200)).

      So, according to you, you've taken all this "feedback" from your lowest tier customers and used that to provide better value to the entire Flippa community by drastically raising pricing to EVERYBODY except the lowest tier customers?

      That is a lie and you know it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Flippa is now attending the Fee Bay school of customer service. I do not know whether to laugh or cry. Oh yes, this is a price increase. However, we knew they would claim they were helping us. Still remember site point and the good old days; oh, the memories.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    I'm not cheering the increase, but paying a 10-15% fee for putting basically no work into the sale itself isn't a bad deal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Smale
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      The decision to change our pricing structure didn't happen overnight, we've been receiving feedback for a considerable time (going back over years!) asking for lower up-front fees. The changes to the success fee has allowed us to do this, and if you compare Flippa to other similar major services and even brokers, our success fee or sales commission is still the cheapest or equal cheapest on the market.

      Broker fees can vary considerably, while most don't have an up-front fee the sales commission can sometimes be as high, or even higher than 20%. There is also no guarantee there won't be other fees along the way.

      Our high-end buyers can also use our Dealflow program which falls under a different pricing structure (no listing fee and a 5% success fee)
      Tim,

      I posted something similar elsewhere but you seem to be doing the same so copying here:

      I'm sure it is someone higher up dictating what to say publicly, but when are Flippa ever going to stop lying? I've never seen a company falsely promote so much rubbish. Fees have not decreased at all (as advertised) - they have significantly increased for almost any sized site you want to sell. No-one noticed until I posted it here and elsewhere (which someone then copied onto a blog comment). I wonder how many people posted new auctions off the back of your promotional email about lower listing fees but didn't notice the doubling of success fees. I can't imagine that will go down well when they get their invoice (assuming their site sells).

      It is a shame as when Flippa first launched off the back of SitePoint it had tons of supporters with everyone in the industry wanting it to succeed. I have sent hundreds of sellers to Flippa over the years and I'm sure many others around here have as well. It is a shame as you have had to come in now and try pick up the pieces from some poor strategic decisions higher up - I certainly don't envy your position.

      Comparing Flippa to a broker (who will only be marginally more expensive but far cheaper if you put any value on your own time) is laughable at best. If you think Flippa provides the same service (or even close) to a broker then you need to do a little more research before spouting nonsense. At 5% Flippa offered "fair" value in my opinion and was a viable alternative to using a broker as a seller as it was quite a lot cheaper to do it yourself (around 1/3 of the cost for a mid-end site). Now it is not. Your success rates and fraud levels alone are FAR worse than even a mediocre broker.

      Saying there is "no guarantee" there will be other fees along the road with a broker is also false - very few brokers will charge anything other than a success fee. Flippa, on the other hand, make it almost impossible to get exposure for a sale without buying premium upgrades - so in reality it is Flippa that have other fees along the road, not brokers. If you have a broker adding in "hidden" fees then you've hired the wrong broker.

      https://flippa.com/dealflow - Interesting how you say here it is a 5% fee yet on the dealflow page it is 10%. Yet more misinformation. It is worrying that the public spokesperson for Flippa doesn't know their own pricing model. IMO the only way you'll ever get dealflow off the ground is partnering with people who actually know what they are doing and clearly outlining the value proposition vs listing yourself. With all due respect, the Flippa team may be good at keeping a sinking ship afloat with inflated prices, but are certainly not experts at selling sites.

      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      I'm not cheering the increase, but paying a 10-15% fee for putting basically no work into the sale itself isn't a bad deal.
      I don't think you quite understand how Flippa works. Your statement would be accurate if you are working with a broker (although there is still some work) but on Flippa you do all the work yourself - Flippa don't do anything except provide a platform (and I'm not even going to go into the issues with the platform itself).
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      I specialize in selling websites over $10,000 in value. No obligation, confidential valuation here.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    My point is that you are paying 10-15% to access Flippa's substantial base of buyers.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      My point is that you are paying 10-15% to access Flippa's substantial base of buyers.
      Many brokers also have a substantial base of buyers, with no pretend price decreases. I've heard more than one seller say they got higher prices for their sites using a broker. Many of the "buyers" on Flippa are bottom feeders looking for a bargain.

      @tbcooke: customers don't like to be tricked or lied to. If you're going to raise your prices, raise them and don't try to sell it as a price decrease when it isn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author tehnolife
    Banned
    You know why this is happening?

    Because Flippa doesn't have any REAL competition!!

    There aren't any strong alternatives to flippa,so sellers(and so the buyers) can move elsewhere when such price abuses appear.

    If there was a strong alternative to flippa be sure this wouldn't happen,they have monopolized this niche and we all should call for a change!
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    • Profile picture of the author JayZeey
      Originally Posted by Pedro Sousa View Post

      Granted, it's not easy to set up a marketplace such as Flippa - a matured product 4 (?) years in the making, but there are some savvy entrepreneurs out there, and the margins seem to be quite nice.
      Perhaps buy an aged domain via flippa and develop it to compete against said marketplace.

      It's a nice site but as a developer, I can say that none of it is brain surgery.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Russell
      Originally Posted by tehnolife View Post

      You know why this is happening?

      Because Flippa doesn't have any REAL competition!!

      There aren't any strong alternatives to flippa,so sellers(and so the buyers) can move elsewhere when such price abuses appear.

      If there was a strong alternative to flippa be sure this wouldn't happen,they have monopolized this niche and we all should call for a change!
      There is a STRONG viable alternative launching this month.

      SiteBidz will offer you lower fees across the board as well as an affiliate program that not only rewards you for referring sellers but also puts a focus on attracting buyers by paying out up to 75% of our success fees back to affiliates.

      Joe Russell
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  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    Flippa is getting ridiculous nowadays. I sold one of my sites last week directly without listing on Flippa. I just posted "this site is for sale" on all pages of my site and I received many offers.
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    Moderator's Note: You're only allowed to put your own products or sites in your signature.

    Signature edited.
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  • Profile picture of the author tbcooke
    It's unfortunate we can't share feedback and thoughts on the new pricing structure without dropping to the level of calling someone who makes the time to hear feedback on forums like this a liar.

    We don't make decisions like this on a gut feeling, but after extensive research and feedback.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      It's unfortunate we can't share feedback and thoughts on the new pricing structure without dropping to the level of calling someone who makes the time to hear feedback on forums like this a liar.

      We don't make decisions like this on a gut feeling, but after extensive research and feedback.

      I'm sorry ... so you're saying that your customers requested higher overall fees?
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Smale
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      It's unfortunate we can't share feedback and thoughts on the new pricing structure without dropping to the level of calling someone who makes the time to hear feedback on forums like this a liar.

      We don't make decisions like this on a gut feeling, but after extensive research and feedback.
      You've certainly taken a lot of the backlash personally but what you need to understand is the way the "listing fee reduction" was pitched was extremely misleading. There was no mention of the doubling of success fees or removal of the fee cap. If you were just straight up about it upfront there wouldn't be such a problem. Users shouldnt choose your prices - that's your decision. I just feel if you're going to argue you have listened to customer feedback to make this decision that you at least do people the courtesy of an honest announcement rather than leaving the success fee increase out and then jumping back in to defend yourself once people notice.

      I really hope that sellers haven't been listing sites and not realising the fees had doubled on success. I would bet the vast majority did not notice. To me that is not a good way to do business. If you're going to increase prices at least be transparent from the outset.
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      I specialize in selling websites over $10,000 in value. No obligation, confidential valuation here.
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      • Profile picture of the author JayZeey
        Originally Posted by Thomas Smale View Post

        I really hope that sellers haven't been listing sites and not realising the fees had doubled on success. I would bet the vast majority did not notice. To me that is not a good way to do business. If you're going to increase prices at least be transparent from the outset.
        I agree. It seemed soooooooo slimey. I'd expect better out of Aussies.

        Wonder if this might be helpful:
        http://cashjournals.com/top-10-place...bsites-online/
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Thomas Smale View Post

        You've certainly taken a lot of the backlash personally but what you need to understand is the way the "listing fee reduction" was pitched was extremely misleading. There was no mention of the doubling of success fees or removal of the fee cap. If you were just straight up about it upfront there wouldn't be such a problem. Users shouldnt choose your prices - that's your decision. I just feel if you're going to argue you have listened to customer feedback to make this decision that you at least do people the courtesy of an honest announcement rather than leaving the success fee increase out and then jumping back in to defend yourself once people notice.

        I really hope that sellers haven't been listing sites and not realising the fees had doubled on success. I would bet the vast majority did not notice. To me that is not a good way to do business. If you're going to increase prices at least be transparent from the outset.
        ^^^^^^^

        This exactly. I personally don't care what Flippa does with it's prices. I rarely use Flippa anymore. There are many that will take that cheery Up to 70% off Listing Fees email at face value and won't look further and may just click on Start Your Listing now without giving it a thought.

        They'll find out if they sell their site that they, in fact, just paid more money than before and they'll probably be pretty pissed. I know I would if I had fallen for it.

        Transparency and honesty. That's what your customers want.
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      • Profile picture of the author tbcooke
        Originally Posted by Thomas Smale View Post

        I really hope that sellers haven't been listing sites and not realising the fees had doubled on success. I would bet the vast majority did not notice. To me that is not a good way to do business. If you're going to increase prices at least be transparent from the outset.
        The way this pricing change has been rolled out is been entirely transparent. This new pricing only affects any new auctions started on or after the date the pricing structure was launched. Therefore, any auctions currently on the site proceed at the rates they agreed to at time of listing.

        Similarly, Sellers listing new auctions confirm they accept the new pricing when they list the site, so all affected parties are notified before they are subjected to any additional costs.

        Regarding the allegations about failing to disclose the changes to the success fee... We announced the price changes in two ways - an email to all of our users and a blog post. Both the email and blog post had links to our pricing page which had the revised success fee on it.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

          The way this pricing change has been rolled out is been entirely transparent.
          Well, I imagine that many people don't read your blog. I rarely visit it. When I get an email with a blaring headline that talks about 70% off listing fees, without a single word in it about increased success fees, I will take the time to read all the fine print, but many won't. They'll just go whoopeee and assume that the listing fees were the only change since none other were mentioned.

          They'll also get through an entire listing and click on all the little buttons to complete it without realizing that there is a big change in success fees. They'll finally realize it if they are successful at selling their site above $200. People often don't read fine print, don't read TOS and don't investigate any further when receiving an email such as the one Flippa sent.

          That is not my definition of transparent. My definition of transparent would have been to announce ALL of the changes in price in that email. Deliberate omission of important, relevant details is deception. Don't believe me? Wikipedia says so :

          Deception includes several types of communications or omissions that serve to distort or omit the complete truth.

          Concealments: omitting information that is important or relevant to the given context, or engaging in behavior that helps hide relevant information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception
          But it's your customers. Just don't act so offended when people accuse Flippa of being less than transparent when you send out promotional emails that leave out significant details, hoping I guess that most won't notice that all this is -- is just another price increase.
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        • Profile picture of the author kirkd82
          Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

          The way this pricing change has been rolled out is been entirely transparent. This new pricing only affects any new auctions started on or after the date the pricing structure was launched. Therefore, any auctions currently on the site proceed at the rates they agreed to at time of listing.

          Similarly, Sellers listing new auctions confirm they accept the new pricing when they list the site, so all affected parties are notified before they are subjected to any additional costs.

          Regarding the allegations about failing to disclose the changes to the success fee... We announced the price changes in two ways - an email to all of our users and a blog post. Both the email and blog post had links to our pricing page which had the revised success fee on it.

          In the spirit of transparency I'm hoping you can help me with a problem regarding this pricing issue.

          In October I set up a listing to sell my established website. When I was done setting it up it would not show up as listed for some reason. I contacted your tech support on multiple occasions and got absolutely no response. At that point I gave up.

          Fast forward to January 16. I decided to give it another shot with the listing I created in October and somehow it actually worked this time! Now while I was activating the listing I had already created, everything I read told me that the success fee would be capped at $3000. This was what was presented to me when I originally created the listing and what was presented to me when I tried to activate that same listing again.

          To make a long story short, my website sold today...for six figures. But... I just took a look at the invoice and I'm seeing a charge for over $20,000! After seeing this invoice, I googled and learned about the removal of the cap on the success fee. This was not what was presented when I set up the listing and not what I saw when reactivating the listing. I would never have agreed to a fee that high (or I would have negotiated for more money with the buyer).

          I've done a Google search and found that I am not the only one that was presented with the old pricing/cap when working with an auction that had already been created. If you look at this page a commenter named "samps" was presented with old pricing while relisitng an previous auction as well.

          I'm giving flippa the benefit of the doubt that you will honor the pricing structure that I was presented. There is no way I'm willing to pay over $20k when I was presented and expected $3000.
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas Smale
            Originally Posted by kirkd82 View Post

            In the spirit of transparency I'm hoping you can help me with a problem regarding this pricing issue.

            In October I set up a listing to sell my established website. When I was done setting it up it would not show up as listed for some reason. I contacted your tech support on multiple occasions and got absolutely no response. At that point I gave up.

            Fast forward to January 16. I decided to give it another shot with the listing I created in October and somehow it actually worked this time! Now while I was activating the listing I had already created, everything I read told me that the success fee would be capped at $3000. This was what was presented to me when I originally created the listing and what was presented to me when I tried to activate that same listing again.

            To make a long story short, my website sold today...for six figures. But... I just took a look at the invoice and I'm seeing a charge for over $20,000! After seeing this invoice, I googled and learned about the removal of the cap on the success fee. This was not what was presented when I set up the listing and not what I saw when reactivating the listing. I would never have agreed to a fee that high (or I would have negotiated for more money with the buyer).

            I've done a Google search and found that I am not the only one that was presented with the old pricing/cap when working with an auction that had already been created. If you look at this page a commenter named "samps" was presented with old pricing while relisitng an previous auction as well.

            I'm giving flippa the benefit of the doubt that you will honor the pricing structure that I was presented. There is no way I'm willing to pay over $20k when I was presented and expected $3000.
            Ouch. This was the exact issue I mentioned earlier in the thread - no way have the majority of people realized the cap has been removed.

            I hope you get the issue sorted - Flippa are generally quite good at fixing issues after they have happened.
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            • Profile picture of the author kirkd82
              Originally Posted by Thomas Smale View Post

              Ouch. This was the exact issue I mentioned earlier in the thread - no way have the majority of people realized the cap has been removed.

              I hope you get the issue sorted - Flippa are generally quite good at fixing issues after they have happened.
              Contacted support but no resolution as of 10:30 am PST. This is going to hold up the closing of my deal because Flippa will end up taking the $20k+ directly out of my Escrow.com. Extremely dissapointed.
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    • Profile picture of the author JRJWrites
      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      It's unfortunate we can't share feedback and thoughts on the new pricing structure without dropping to the level of calling someone who makes the time to hear feedback on forums like this a liar.
      It's also rather unfortunate that Flippa chose to deliberately LIE to their customers about their pricing change.

      And then...we have reasons to call you a liar, like for what you're about to say next:

      Originally Posted by tbcooke View Post

      We don't make decisions like this on a gut feeling, but after extensive research and feedback.
      Of course. I've always wanted a higher listing fee when I sell a website. It's been one of my secret hopes ever since I became an IM.

      Alright warriors, who's up to start an *honest* Flippa clone?
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  • Profile picture of the author JayZeey
    When I saw this, my first instinct was "yea, right."

    Looks like a hole has opened in the market for brokering the interwebs. Wonder how many oDesk jobs just opened up for "clone flippa".
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
    Flippa is only about scammers these days...nobody would sell a reputable website over there. Its all just people selling useless domains and websites pretending to make money, while they don't. Then they use all their fake accounts to boost the bidding and fool newbies into thinking there must be some value in the product. But its all crap.
    Signature

    I'm not selling anything in here.

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    • Profile picture of the author eric w
      You really need to refrain from making general sweeping statements like that. "Flippa is only about scammers"?....."...nobody would sell a reputable website over there"?

      Listen, I agree that some of these companies are flat out lying about reasons behind price increases..oops, I mean decreases (lol).

      I sell reputable sites on flippa that don't make any money. There are people selling on flippa who are not scammers.

      Because of 1, or a few, bad apples you can't disparage the whole lot! We've seen where this has led to in many countries historically and in the present!

      Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

      Flippa is only about scammers these days...nobody would sell a reputable website over there. Its all just people selling useless domains and websites pretending to make money, while they don't. Then they use all their fake accounts to boost the bidding and fool newbies into thinking there must be some value in the product. But its all crap.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
      Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

      Flippa is only about scammers these days...nobody would sell a reputable website over there. Its all just people selling useless domains and websites pretending to make money, while they don't. Then they use all their fake accounts to boost the bidding and fool newbies into thinking there must be some value in the product. But its all crap.
      Wow what a blanket statement this is...

      With words like "nobody" and "all" you must have some hard data to back up your claims?

      I sold over $150k last year on Flippa and never once "pretended to make money".
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      • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
        Originally Posted by Brad Gosse View Post

        Wow what a blanket statement this is...

        With words like "nobody" and "all" you must have some hard data to back up your claims?

        I sold over $150k last year on Flippa and never once "pretended to make money".
        I thought it was obvious that I was referring to websites making "profit" being sold there.
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  • Profile picture of the author FranksToys
    Flippa's a great place for people to pawn off low quality sites with inflated "metrics" to newbies. There's very rarely a good deal from the buyers side as I've seen a lot of these so called good deals end up being sites that just go thrashed by an algo update but low and behold they forgot to mention that detail in the sales thread.

    There's money to be made in rehashing smaller sites for a few hundred bucks, but if your gonna sell a real business online than a broker's the way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    Just FYI, I thought I'd mention that I've had some pretty good success selling here in the Complete Web Sites For Sale! section.

    It's only $20 to list, it's untimed, you can handle it as an auction or however you choose, you can decide to sell or not depending on the offers you get, and you have the added advantage of it being easier to check out someone's background through looking at their history on the WF.

    I do wish though that there were a separation in there of some kind between PLR site packages and site setup services, and actual established sites for sale.

    It would make it a bit easier for folks to distinguish between the two, as the section is pretty crowded with the former rather than the latter.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

      Just FYI, I thought I'd mention that I've had some pretty good success selling here in the Complete Web Sites For Sale! section.

      It's only $20 to list, it's untimed, you can handle it as an auction or however you choose, you can decide to sell or not depending on the offers you get, and you have the added advantage of it being easier to check out someone's background through looking at their history on the WF.

      I do wish though that there were a separation in there of some kind between PLR site packages and site setup services, and actual established sites for sale.

      It would make it a bit easier for folks to distinguish between the two, as the section is pretty crowded with the former rather than the latter.
      This section was a great addition to the WF. Unfortunately for the section as a whole, one person creates around 13-15 threads per day for those plr blogs, completely overwhelming the section with their offers. I think there should be a limit on how many one person can have on the front page. This seller has been doing it for a couple of years now and it's really degraded the usefulness of the section, and it's probably not the best place for high end sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author ServicesForIM
    I will not sell another website on Flippa, as far as I'm concerned they have priced themselves out the market.

    I will try and sell them on this forum when I have them.

    KAte
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  • Geez. I was actually pretty happy about the price drop but after reading all of this...just don't know what to think. I've never sold a website anywhere else for anything near what I was expecting. Seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. Thanks to everyone that took the time to look things over and state the facts. It's getting hard out here for a Warrior...

    For what it's worth, I used this promo code yesterday and got a free listing: https://flippa.com/redeem-credit-voucher?c=flippacrazy&utm_source=CrazyEgg

    Only works once (I checked ). Just make sure you're signed in when you try it or it assumes you're trying to register for a new account. Hope it still works.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      For the love of pete... We are talking about corporate America here. The price restructure makes sense to me in a number of ways.

      The guys that are posting sites that don't sell are going to pay less, and those that do sell are making up for the listing loss.

      As many have noted, but not really... The theory of supply and demand seems to be in affect here. Everyone is saying they have control of the market... so you increase prices. Its the American way!

      And then there is the Obvious, which I have not seen noted here... They will be up for sale. High price tag would require higher earnings, hence the price increase, to increase overall value.

      So looking at this now as a BUSINESS. Lower posting costs will likely increase overall listings. Thus increasing potential net worth. Increase the sales side expense, which will increase over all revenue. Then you add the probability of a sale, and it all makes sense.

      Throw in for good measure tbcooke coming in and at least making an effort. ( That in itself puts him right up there in the class act category in my book )
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas Smale
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        For the love of pete... We are talking about corporate America here. The price restructure makes sense to me in a number of ways.

        The guys that are posting sites that don't sell are going to pay less, and those that do sell are making up for the listing loss.

        As many have noted, but not really... The theory of supply and demand seems to be in affect here. Everyone is saying they have control of the market... so you increase prices. Its the American way!

        And then there is the Obvious, which I have not seen noted here... They will be up for sale. High price tag would require higher earnings, hence the price increase, to increase overall value.

        So looking at this now as a BUSINESS. Lower posting costs will likely increase overall listings. Thus increasing potential net worth. Increase the sales side expense, which will increase over all revenue. Then you add the probability of a sale, and it all makes sense.

        Throw in for good measure tbcooke coming in and at least making an effort. ( That in itself puts him right up there in the class act category in my book )
        No-one is arguing about the economics here, I think you have missed the point.

        The issue is Flippa pitched this as a price decrease and were not transparent about increasing costs on the back end. That is the problem, not the prices (I'm sure people are moaning about that, too, but it's basic economics as you say).

        See attachment of the email to put things in perspective if you didn't get it. I don't think anyone would argue that is clear about the doubling of success fees (and removal of the cap).

        Tim has taken quite a lot of abuse in public forums but he was the one who claimed it was a discount in the first place so I'm not sure what he expected
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Thomas Smale View Post

          No-one is arguing about the economics here, I think you have missed the point.

          The issue is Flippa pitched this as a price decrease and were not transparent about increasing costs on the back end. That is the problem, not the prices (I'm sure people are moaning about that, too, but it's basic economics as you say).

          See attachment of the email to put things in perspective if you didn't get it. I don't think anyone would argue that is clear about the doubling of success fees (and removal of the cap).

          Tim has taken quite a lot of abuse in public forums but he was the one who claimed it was a discount in the first place so I'm not sure what he expected
          I totally understand what you are saying, but you are probably in their 1%, the other 99% fall into the reduction category. what do you think their sites listed vs. sites sold percentage is? So overall by percentage, it is exactly as advertised, a reduction in the rate. But like I stated before ultimately it is going to be the 1% that financially make up the difference, and show the growth.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            [QUOTE=savidge4;8873510]I totally understand what you are saying, but you are probably in their 1%, the other 99% fall into the reduction category./QUOTE]

            You mean those who sell starter sites for $100 or less? That is the only reduction category. Everything else is an increase.

            On a $100 sale:
            $29 listing, $5 success fee = $34
            $9 listing, $15 success fee = $24
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              ok so lets run down some math here there are roughly 2000 listings. 30 day listing so you are looking at 66 sites close each day. On average it appears that 5 sites sell per day. That would be a 7% close rate.

              The company is now loosing on average $610 a day in listing fees. In the recent 5 days there is not a site/domain that has sold for less than $2000 Of the 25 or so that have sold in the last 5 days only 2 would qualify as a "New" site getting the 15% the remaining 23 or 92 % would get the now doubled 10% fee.

              Throw into place some other variables such as escrow accounts and over head etc. and mathematically it appears they needed to do this just to stay afloat, more than to profit from it.

              Look at today specifically. They are looking at 5 actions closed at 10% for a total of $2100. Take out the $610 in lost listing revenue, and they are ahead $1500. Assume that the Escrow house is taking another 1% and the total is now $1300. Assuming they have rent and electric and employees etc they may be down to $1000 a day now. $30,000 a month for the HOTTEST site flip site on the net... its really not that good! That kinda sucks actually.

              Heck, we didn't even throw in an advertising budget....

              So that's how I look at it... you can wine if you want but the reality is, if they didn't do that.. you wouldn't be selling anything there, because they would probably shut down!

              Hope That Helps!
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              • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                In the recent 5 days there is not a site/domain that has sold for less than $2000
                The just sold page actually shows only the good sales. You have to click "See all Just Sold Listings" to see the full list.

                15 of the last 30 sold for under $100
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                ok so lets run down some math here there are roughly 2000 listings. 30 day listing so you are looking at 66 sites close each day. On average it appears that 5 sites sell per day. That would be a 7% close rate.
                Your numbers are pure fiction - all of them. Anyone can see for themselves by hitting see all listings in the just sold section. There are 18 already sold since midnight today and the day has really just begun.

                ...there is not a site/domain that has sold for less than $2000 Of the 25 or so that have sold in the last 5 days only 2 would qualify as a "New" site getting the 15% the remaining 23 or 92 % would get the now doubled 10% fee
                [WHAT A CROCK] Of the 18 that have sold so far today, not one sold for above $855 and most have sold for far less.

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $100
                2 bids
                GameWig.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $197
                7 bids
                Petssupplytoday.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $63
                13 bids
                WOWPlaylist.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $855
                66 bids
                socialtrafficstar.com

                Established Oct 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 6,500
                Monthly Revenue $1,750
                Won $60
                8 bids
                FashionJewelrySource.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $10
                2 bids
                MensTuxApparel.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $600
                12 bids
                AcneShout.com

                Established Oct 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 25,244
                Monthly Revenue $400
                Won $305
                31 bids
                BacklinkCentral.net

                Established Oct 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 2,102
                Monthly Revenue $1,748
                Won $130
                10 bids
                eOrganicMart.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $247
                8 bids
                joblikes.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 1
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $330
                17 bids
                gadgetship.com

                Established Jun 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 2,400
                Monthly Revenue $98
                Won $80
                1 bid
                TravelRacer.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $85
                5 bids
                TripFancy.com

                Established Jan 2014
                Domainonly
                Won $35
                6 bids
                psychquiz.com

                DOMAIN ONLY
                Won $32
                5 bids
                imobiledesignsolutions.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $80
                3 bids
                GoInsuranceAgents.com

                Established Jan 2014
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Revenue $0
                Won $90
                1 bid
                iCheapVacations.com

                Look at the ones like this:
                Monthly Uniques 6,500
                Monthly Revenue $1,750
                Won $60

                Doesn't it beg the question ... why would someone sell a site making $1,750 per month for a whopping $60? lol.

                Same with these:

                Established Oct 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 25,244
                Monthly Revenue $400
                Won $305
                31 bids
                BacklinkCentral.net

                Established Oct 2013
                PageRank 0
                Monthly Uniques 2,102
                Monthly Revenue $1,748
                Won $130
                10 bids
                eOrganicMart.com
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Yes, I didn't go deep enough in my research, My bad. But the reality is the actual numbers are somewhere in the 3x category of where I put them to begin with. Overall not that good either way, not what you would expect.

                  I was kind a hoping the thread was dead and you wouldn't notice haha

                  But your list does make my point that based on a numbers average, the sites that are selling, all in all Flippa is making less. So in turn they have to get the money from the higher priced sites.

                  The lower price to list is to entice more inventory. E-bay does the same thing offering free listings for a month etc.

                  And yeah, once you starting looking at site stats and what they sell for, you really have to wonder what is going on in that persons life that they sell $1800 worth of monthly income for $130
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    And yeah, once you starting looking at site stats and what they sell for, you really have to wonder what is going on in that persons life that they sell $1800 worth of monthly income for $130
                    My guess is that the stats are fake. Who in their right mind would sell for $130 minus listing fee minus success fee when the site is making $1,800? They'd have to be nuts.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Irmscher
                      10% fee without threshold is just too much in my opinion. But people have no alternative...

                      I've closed few good deals as a seller on flippa, but few auctions went really bad. It's easy to sell an established site with regular income but really hard to sell domains.
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                    • Profile picture of the author GamerZag
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      My guess is that the stats are fake. Who in their right mind would sell for $130 minus listing fee minus success fee when the site is making $1,800? They'd have to be nuts.
                      What if Flippa was creating fake listings, and then completing fake sales, in an effort to simulate that it is an active marketplace?

                      I'm not saying they are, however, that strategy is used by a *lot* of websites which rely on an active presence.
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by GamerZag View Post

                        What if Flippa was creating fake listings, and then completing fake sales, in an effort to simulate that it is an active marketplace?

                        I'm not saying they are, however, that strategy is used by a *lot* of websites which rely on an active presence.
                        I honestly doubt that. I believe they do have an active marketplace without the need for fake listings.
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                      • Profile picture of the author heavysm
                        Originally Posted by GamerZag View Post

                        What if Flippa was creating fake listings, and then completing fake sales, in an effort to simulate that it is an active marketplace?

                        I'm not saying they are, however, that strategy is used by a *lot* of websites which rely on an active presence.
                        It's not flippa creating the fake listings, it's actually various users trying to get a slice of that profit pie. A few WSO coaching programs a while ago were espousing creating high valued sites to sell on Flippa.

                        Sadly what those sites turned out to be were these almost zero value service sites that only had the "potential" to make the money as described in the auction.

                        The coaching service then came about when the dude realized he could teach others the same process. No value at all to be seen anywhere though. Just screws up the system really.

                        When money is to be made the unscrupulous people come out of the darkness of their internet caves to screw everything up for the legit people.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
                    The decision to change our pricing structure didn't happen overnight, we've been receiving feedback for a considerable time (going back over years!) asking for lower up-front fees.


                    I'm sure they weren't asking for a hike in the success fee at the same time
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              • Profile picture of the author unifiedac
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                The company is now loosing on average $610 a day in listing fees.
                Flippa retains listing fees even if the site doesn't sell. They simply don't capture the sales fee. So, it's not that they're losing money, but their conversion rate is lower than desirable.
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  • Profile picture of the author TryBPO
    Thanks for bringing this up, Thomas. Big news, indeed.

    You're right in that this supports the lower end (<$1K) of the market and drops the hammer on the over $50K crowd. Why would Flippa deliberately shift their focus like that?

    I know that they've taken some flack previously when they've switched things up. Maybe they were trying to avoid that this time by quietly introducing the success fee hike? Seems like a pretty bad move w/ some blowback. :-(
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  • Profile picture of the author Moneymaker2012
    Flippa is getting ridiculous nowadays. I sold one of my sites last week directly without listing on Flippa. I just posted "this site is for sale" on all pages of my site and I received many offers.
    Yeah Flippa is getting unfair things well Adie you did a good job and share a great idea thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author A P Geofrey
    Now this was an interesting read. Quite informative and entertaining too. I will just add one thing though.

    I think Flippa was not only misleading with their email entirely, they where actually lying to their members when they said it was about a price reduction. In fact, I remember getting that email and hurrying to my Flippa account because I had started the listing of two sites over weeks ago, ad never completed them.

    And at first I really thought, wow ! ! I would be able to list this sites now for less than what it would have cost me a week ago, and I was so excited until I got to the next page of the listing, and I was like whaaaat ! !

    Anyways thanks for bringing this up, I am sure many fell for that lie and some are still even falling for it as we speak.
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  • Profile picture of the author kirkd82
    UPDATE-


    Flippa took care of the issue! They were very nice about it.
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  • Good on them. Glad to hear all went well for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    Most website brokers will charge you 10% to flip a site for you. Many of them will not mess with your site unless they can make $10K from it though. So these rates are pretty well in line with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author wakizashi99
    Sneaky Flippa...
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  • Profile picture of the author SandraLarkin
    Banned
    Wow, Flippa has really started gouging their client base, BAD. The prices used to be extremely fair two years ago. Their increases are one of the reasons I stopped, and this cements it even more.
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  • Profile picture of the author wakizashi99
    Pardon my ignorance, but how does this increase translate for people selling domains only?
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    • Profile picture of the author busybeesdeals
      Time to start looking for a new place to sell sites on. Flippa is getting too expensive for the little work they put into the sale.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayes
    Removing the success fee cap is the biggest issue for me. I won't be using Flippa to sell any of my sites in the future. Flippa is not a broker, I don't see how they can justify these kinds of price hikes.
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    • Profile picture of the author unifiedac
      Originally Posted by Dayes View Post

      Removing the success fee cap is the biggest issue for me. I won't be using Flippa to sell any of my sites in the future. Flippa is not a broker, I don't see how they can justify these kinds of price hikes.
      Just like everything in life, with Flippa you're paying for convenience. I could say, "Why should I pay $5 for a beer at the bar. I can get the same beer at the grocery store for $1.50. I'm never going to a bar again!" With Flippa you can post a site and if it's valuable and you aren't trying to get something for nothing, it will probably sell.

      The business needs to raise fees to increase profit in order stay in business and keep its owners happy. It's common sense. Could fees be lower? Probably. Are they still reasonable? Yeah.

      What people should be asking is, "Where is the money going?" LIke I said. You're paying for convenience. Also, anyone who has been on Flippa over the years and has sold sites will testify that the process has become increasingly smoother. Not to mention that more and more people are selling junk. Listings that still need to managed. People are just so demanding. You should really think about what's happening:

      1. You post some details about your website.
      2. Free traffic from all over the world views your sale.
      3. People make bids and you make money.
      4. You pay fees for someone else to sell your website while you sit back and watch the Super Bowl.

      Take a chill pill and pay the fees.
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      • Profile picture of the author Content Commando
        Originally Posted by unifiedac View Post

        Just like everything in life, with Flippa you're paying for convenience. I could say, "Why should I pay $5 for a beer at the bar. I can get the same beer at the grocery store for $1.50. I'm never going to a bar again!" With Flippa you can post a site and if it's valuable and you aren't trying to get something for nothing, it will probably sell.

        The business needs to raise fees to increase profit in order stay in business and keep its owners happy. It's common sense. Could fees be lower? Probably. Are they still reasonable? Yeah.

        What people should be asking is, "Where is the money going?" LIke I said. You're paying for convenience. Also, anyone who has been on Flippa over the years and has sold sites will testify that the process has become increasingly smoother. Not to mention that more and more people are selling junk. Listings that still need to managed. People are just so demanding. You should really think about what's happening:

        1. You post some details about your website.
        2. Free traffic from all over the world views your sale.
        3. People make bids and you make money.
        4. You pay fees for someone else to sell your website while you sit back and watch the Super Bowl.

        Take a chill pill and pay the fees.
        no, that's not the issue at all. It would be like a bar advertising that they've dropped their beer prices from $5 to only $2 to pack the bar, then inexplicably charging an additional $10 for tax after you ordered it. When you complain, they will point to a small sign hanging in the corner with fine print that mentions their tax increase.
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  • Profile picture of the author Content Commando
    I don't use flippa because of all the horror stories I hear, but the idea of someone conspiring to mask an increase in pricing by blasting an email advertising that they were decreasing prices, is simply shady business in my eyes.
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