Why do internet marketers and internet marketing tools/services come across as so sleazy?

52 replies
So, I apologize for the very odd first post, but I feel like, for me to participate in this forum (not that anyone asked) I have to get something off my chest...

I'm new to IM, specifically, I'm new to list building and long tail targeting for the purposes of driving traffic purely with the goal of end game monetization from products I don't sell.

I currently work in digital advertising (with a print arm, but not my group) and worked in TV for about 13 years, so this felt like a natural fit for someone looking to take on some personal projects.

Now, I don't mind spending money on tools or services, etc. I can do all the design work, etc myself but one thing that really concerns me is the percieved legitimacy of the IM industry, from an outsider. (Namely me)

As I first got my introduction to niche marketing through (Moderated: let's keep people's names out of this thread) site, I set up a niche site, did all the right things, and got it to the first page of google for my keyword target within the first month. Now, I picked a horrible niche that had low traffic and little ability for monetization (or so I thought), but it was a learning experience.

From visiting many of the IM sites around on the net, I see just abherrant techniques in the webdesign of the sites, from the grammar, to the page design and layout, and even the little personality traits. Every single person who has anything to say on IM talks in alternating caps, and bolds, flashy letters (I've seen animated gifs!!) they have a picture of themselves which apparently seeks to legitimize them (it fails, they inevitably look like sleazebags)

The software and services look for all the world like timeshare ads. These tools/apps/services seem to target at uneducated people who can easily be bilked out of money to buy get rich quick schemes.

I am ASSUMING there is more to IM/niche marketing/long tail sites than this first level of sleaze that seems to cover the industry. My question is, where to start legitimately?

This forum (i've been lurking for a bit) seems to be a good spot, but can someone explain the ghetto looking ads and tactics used by so many in the IM industry?

If I read one more "user story" that reads like "i'm so excited to be on this journey" I may vomit. The only positive side is I could possibly film it and upload it to youtube as part 14 of a 36 part series in internet marketing reaction vids to drive targeted advertising to my thinly veiled service pimping squeeze page...

Sorry for the rant, and I hope you guys recognize a lot of this as mostly tongue in cheek.

Would love to know the thoughts of some experienced Im'ers. I would kill to have an outlet for my experience beyond my 9-5 jobs.

Thanks much!
#internet #marketers #marketing #sleazy #tools or services
  • Profile picture of the author OnlineStoreHelp
    Because half the time, they are sleazy. Half the products and sales page target the get quick rich crowd. It is no different than another industry I won't mention that 9 times out of 10 sells "the dream" because the product is overpriced junk with outrageous claims.

    The unfortunate part is the few gems out there get drowned out by the crap and learning how to wade through them is difficult. The great thing about Pat Flynn (while I don't agree with 100% of what he pushes), he never pushes anything he isn't using himself.

    The minute I see an outrageous claim on earnings, traffic or anything like that, I automatically ignore it. the minute I get the same email from 10 different marketers, I ignore it.

    Cynical? Yep! But I have wasted less time and money this way then just buying the dream...
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    • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
      I really cannot thank you enough for your response. I was really concerned I'd come off as a jerk but I didn't know how else to be honest about my concerns.

      Do you, after a time, just tune out the idiots? IE: If it looks sleazy, its probably sleazy?

      My problem revolves around finding good niche keywords to base a site on. Every one of the pieces of software out there look sleazy and I am operating under the assumption that most of the work that the software does is aggregate information thats freely available to you without any help at all.

      (Moderated: If you want to write a review for someone's product or service do it in the Product Review forum, please do not ask for specific feedback on a product / service in this main forum).
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  • Profile picture of the author CharlesL
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
      I agree Charles. Completely. He was just my entry. Also, I don't really understand why if he's making SO much money, he feels the need to even run a site bragging about it (he doesn't really tell you HOW to do anything)

      Which begs the question, why do people who supposedly make so much off niche marketing all seem to have a site talking about how much they make off niche marketing? I wouldn't tell anyone if "i'd found the secret to 23942342$ per month in passive income"

      Especially considering how competitive niche keywords are. (NO ONE will say what their niches are)
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        I agree Charles. Completely. He was just my entry. Also, I don't really understand why if he's making SO much money, he feels the need to even run a site bragging about it (he doesn't really tell you HOW to do anything)

        Which begs the question, why do people who supposedly make so much off niche marketing all seem to have a site talking about how much they make off niche marketing? I wouldn't tell anyone if "i'd found the secret to 23942342$ per month in passive income"

        Especially considering how competitive niche keywords are. (NO ONE will say what their niches are)
        I want to address this because this topic seems to come up a lot. Sure, there are plenty of sleazeballs who brag about how much money they're making, yet they're making most of their income of their Make Money Online products and not from much else.

        But there are also some very giving marketers who like to see other's succeed. For them it's more than just about the money. I know, I've met quite a few of them, some in this very forum; some of whom become good friends of mine.

        I also know very successful marketers who are VERY private people and they don't like to share anything, except, maybe with their inner circle.

        Like any industry, it's the bad apples that get all the attention and it's easy to forget that there are plenty of good apples too.

        RoD
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        "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
        - Jim Rohn
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        • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
          Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post

          Welcome to the world of marketing. You work in digital advertising. Certainly you understand.

          The techniques you see being employed...headlines, hooks, story telling, guarantees, scarcity, photos, testimonials...are as old as marketing and advertisign itself. Why do you see them? Because they have proven to work for years and years and years. The only thing that changes is the tongue and the medium.
          Thanks Drew. I believe I have the knowledge to set up a good site, utilizing good seo techniques, and use the advertising knowledge I have, my big sticking point is how to find the niches to go after.


          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          I want to address this because this topic seems to come up a lot. Sure, there are plenty of sleazeballs who brag about how much money they're making, yet they're making most of their income of their Make Money Online products and not from much else.

          But there are also some very giving marketers who like to see other's succeed. For them it's more than just about the money. I know, I've met quite a few of them, some in this very forum; some of whom become good friends of mine.

          I also know very successful marketers who are VERY private people and they don't like to share anything, except, maybe with their inner circle.

          Like any industry, it's the bad apples that get all the attention and it's easy to forget that there are plenty of good apples too.

          RoD
          That makes good sense to me. It also makes it hard to know where to start trying to learn about such things.

          I figure if I just read enough then learn to filter through the bull hockey, it'll give me a good start.
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      • Profile picture of the author onSubie
        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        Which begs the question, why do people who supposedly make so much off niche marketing all seem to have a site talking about how much they make off niche marketing? I wouldn't tell anyone if "i'd found the secret to 23942342$ per month in passive income"
        This is not uncommon in any industry. You can make money from two avenues:

        1) Doing what you do
        2) Teaching what you do

        For example:

        1) Pro running back for Dallas Cowboys
        2) Football/Running Back Camp/Coaching

        1) Real Estate flipping
        2) How to flip Real Estate seminars

        1) Professional musician
        2) Teaching music to advanced students

        1) Adsense websites
        2) How to make money with Adsense course

        I don't see the logic in saying "If someone is making $15,000 a month from Adsense why would they want to add another $5,000 a month teaching Adsense courses?"

        Mahlon

        PS

        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        they have a picture of themselves which apparently seeks to legitimize them (it fails, they inevitably look like sleazebags)
        This made me laugh!
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  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    I highly doubt ******* has bought 100% of the products available and has applied them 100% as instructed to be able to base a 50% failure claim.

    But that's not the point.

    Welcome to the world of marketing. You work in digital advertising. Certainly you understand.

    The techniques you see being employed...headlines, hooks, story telling, guarantees, scarcity, photos, testimonials...are as old as marketing and advertisign itself. Why do you see them? Because they have proven to work for years and years and years. The only thing that changes is the tongue and the medium.

    They sell what people want. Not what people need. And as long as there is a market, there will be products.

    Only you can decide if you actually need a product or simply want the benefits the product is selling you.

    Be careful what advice you take from this place. Just because someone talks a lot doesn't mean they actually know what they are talking about.

    Anyone can talk about it all day. Few can do it all day.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Lucid, why are you here? I'm not being sarcastic, it's a serious question.

    The answer to your question is: because it works.

    It's the same reason a low-budget infomercial aired via remnant media performs better than a big-budget commercial with expensive targeted media. Short and sweet message, bullet points, feature benefits, reach as many people as possible for the smallest dollar amount.

    There's a difference between selling a PRODUCT and selling a BRAND. If it's a quick hit product, there's no logical reason to take the extra effort because it won't help you sell more. If you're building a BRAND it makes sense to create a solid image ("brand essence") . A PDF teaching you how to buy cheap Facebook ads isn't a brand.
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    • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      Lucid, why are you here? I'm not being sarcastic, it's a serious question.

      The answer to your question is: because it works.

      It's the same reason a low-budget infomercial aired via remnant media performs better than a big-budget commercial with expensive targeted media. Short and sweet message, bullet points, feature benefits, reach as many people as possible for the smallest dollar amount.

      There's a difference between selling a PRODUCT and selling a BRAND. If it's a quick hit product, there's no logical reason to take the extra effort because it won't help you sell more. If you're building a BRAND it makes sense to create a solid image ("brand essence") . A PDF teaching you how to buy cheap Facebook ads isn't a brand.
      Hi, thanks for the serious question. Let me give you an analogy. I'm into bodybuilding. When I first got into it, there are a million products out there that advertise how to get big and jacked, or cut and lean. They often have ingredients you can't pronounce and large, bold, loud labels.

      Within a few short months of starting to lift heavy, I realized the products were all mostly crap, and consistent, hard work, attention to diet, and proper sleep was really all you need to get in really good shape.

      I learned, after joining a bodybuilding forum, everything that I was doing wrong, and how to get much bigger and stronger, without any of the BS.

      That is precisely why I"m here I assume its quite similar with internet marketing and the products that offer shortcuts to wealth and income. I always feel like forums are the most honest, least path of resistance way to gain knowledge about a particular topic.

      In this case, I want to learn how to research keywords, design a site that using SEO targets small but consistent traffic, and funnel the users to either affiliated links, products, or adsense links to earn income.

      EDIT: Further. I have no real interest in creating my own products, or enriching a brand. I solely want to make money by funneling search results to other sites products and monetizing the traffic.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        Hi, thanks for the serious question. Let me give you an analogy. I'm into bodybuilding. When I first got into it, there are a million products out there that advertise how to get big and jacked, or cut and lean. They often have ingredients you can't pronounce and large, bold, loud labels.

        Within a few short months of starting to lift heavy, I realized the products were all mostly crap, and consistent, hard work, attention to diet, and proper sleep was really all you need to get in really good shape.

        I learned, after joining a bodybuilding forum, everything that I was doing wrong, and how to get much bigger and stronger, without any of the BS.

        That is precisely why I"m here I assume its quite similar with internet marketing and the products that offer shortcuts to wealth and income. I always feel like forums are the most honest, least path of resistance way to gain knowledge about a particular topic.

        In this case, I want to learn how to research keywords, design a site that using SEO targets small but consistent traffic, and funnel the users to either affiliated links, products, or adsense links to earn income.

        EDIT: Further. I have no real interest in creating my own products, or enriching a brand. I solely want to make money by funneling search results to other sites products and monetizing the traffic.
        This resonates with me because many moons ago (like more than 20 years ago) I was in body building where I was working out 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day (different muscle groups of course).

        It's an appropriate analogy because you finally figured out you didn't really need 99% of the products / services out there to get the body you wanted.

        The same holds true here.

        As someone whose been in this industry for a long time I've got some advice for you. You seem to focused on keyword research and obtaining traffic using search engine optimization techniques. I started out that way first and boy oh boy did I ever wish I would have looked at other ways of getting traffic.

        Don't get me wrong, some people do very well with SEO, but instead of focusing on just that, in the beginning, I would spend the next few weeks really getting to KNOW this world, there are so many facets to it.

        There are so many ways to make money online it's not even funny. Find out what's out there first. If you haven't done so, I would invest $37 bucks and join the War Room, then again you might get overwhelmed with the dearth of information and stuff that's in there. Take your time to get to know this forum too.

        Download Paul's handy dandy guide to the Warrior Forum (won't cost you anything):

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/515545-pauls-handy-little-guide-warrior-forum.html

        There are people out there making some very good money even without a website (i.e. some Kindle authors, offline marketers, brokers, selling a service, making apps, etc.).

        When you're ready to invest in a system, a course, or a Warrior Special Offer, common sense goes a long way:

        * Take reviews with a grain of salt
        * If you're buying a WSO or a service that's in this forum, look at the seller. How long have they been here? Read their posts. What are they like? Are they helpful? Do they spend a lot of time fighting with other members?
        * Do they offer a money back guarantee
        * Watch out for ads that claim "no work" or "100% automated"; those are usually red flags
        * Check out the mastermind forum, you might connect with another marketer there
        * Check out the Warriors For Hire section: many marketers need reviewers of their products and services, you might find some gold nuggets in there

        Don't be afraid to participate here and ask questions here. However, please do use the "Search" function of the forum first because someone else might have already asked your question.

        I can't really tell you where to begin because there are so many places you can start, but you should get to know this forum a little better, it's a goldmine if you know how to avoid the noise (and something tells me that you already know how to do that).

        RoD
        Signature
        "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
        - Jim Rohn
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        • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          --TRUNCATED--
          RoD
          That all makes a lot of sense. Not referring to IM as an industry makes a lot of sense as well. As for my focus on niche marketing, I am ignorant to other forms of income. I already work a 9-5 for an ad agency, do freelance on the side and have other side projects. What this means is, I don't want to "create" a product to monetize myself. I have no problem with standing up sites that drive marketed traffic to other people's products, but my level of "creation" is pretty well tapped out.

          I can stand up a wordpress site with a theme, perfect the SEO, do the design, write it competently, administrate the server, set up the adsense account, track the analytics, etc, blah blah yadda yadda, but I have to know what to create a site for.

          I am absolutely willing to entertain other possibilities besides niche marketing for income.

          Originally Posted by aleksbogata View Post

          Bragging already, geeez :p
          haha, yeah, I'm SO cool. I'm going to have every entry page to every site I have just a big stupid grin with an EMMY and an "ENTER YOUR EMAIL BELOW" just to access my pages, because I'm so cool!
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        • Profile picture of the author JoeRemington
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          This resonates with me because many moons ago (like more than 20 years ago) I was in body building where I was working out 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day (different muscle groups of course).

          It's an appropriate analogy because you finally figured out you didn't really need 99% of the products / services out there to get the body you wanted.

          The same holds true here.

          As someone whose been in this industry for a long time I've got some advice for you. You seem to focused on keyword research and obtaining traffic using search engine optimization techniques. I started out that way first and boy oh boy did I ever wish I would have looked at other ways of getting traffic.

          Don't get me wrong, some people do very well with SEO, but instead of focusing on just that, in the beginning, I would spend the next few weeks really getting to KNOW this world, there are so many facets to it.

          There are so many ways to make money online it's not even funny. Find out what's out there first. If you haven't done so, I would invest $37 bucks and join the War Room, then again you might get overwhelmed with the dearth of information and stuff that's in there. Take your time to get to know this forum too.

          Download Paul's handy dandy guide to the Warrior Forum (won't cost you anything):

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/515545-pauls-handy-little-guide-warrior-forum.html

          There are people out there making some very good money even without a website (i.e. some Kindle authors, offline marketers, brokers, selling a service, making apps, etc.).

          When you're ready to invest in a system, a course, or a Warrior Special Offer, common sense goes a long way:

          * Take reviews with a grain of salt
          * If you're buying a WSO or a service that's in this forum, look at the seller. How long have they been here? Read their posts. What are they like? Are they helpful? Do they spend a lot of time fighting with other members?
          * Do they offer a money back guarantee
          * Watch out for ads that claim "no work" or "100% automated"; those are usually red flags
          * Check out the mastermind forum, you might connect with another marketer there
          * Check out the Warriors For Hire section: many marketers need reviewers of their products and services, you might find some gold nuggets in there

          Don't be afraid to participate here and ask questions here. However, please do use the "Search" function of the forum first because someone else might have already asked your question.

          I can't really tell you where to begin because there are so many places you can start, but you should get to know this forum a little better, it's a goldmine if you know how to avoid the noise (and something tells me that you already know how to do that).

          RoD
          This is valuable set of tips that Rod added to this thread.

          I'm not taking from all the other really good comments but Rod pointed everyone right back to one of the great resources we have available right within this awesome little community which is that handy little guide from Paul Myers.

          There's a wealth of valuable tips in there and every one on this forum should have a copy and be implementing the suggestions, tips, strategies within it.

          Great addition IMO Rod,
          Joe Remington
          Signature

          Create Killer Information Products with Such Ease You'll Almost Think I Wrote it for You...

          Plus I'll Even Give You a No Opt In Report for Free that will teach you how to Take Action, Create Actionable Info Products, and Avoid 5 Mistakes that Plague Product Creators... Check out my WSO

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      • Profile picture of the author ronrule
        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        Hi, thanks for the serious question. Let me give you an analogy. I'm into bodybuilding. When I first got into it, there are a million products out there that advertise how to get big and jacked, or cut and lean. They often have ingredients you can't pronounce and large, bold, loud labels.

        Within a few short months of starting to lift heavy, I realized the products were all mostly crap, and consistent, hard work, attention to diet, and proper sleep was really all you need to get in really good shape.

        I learned, after joining a bodybuilding forum, everything that I was doing wrong, and how to get much bigger and stronger, without any of the BS.

        That is precisely why I"m here I assume its quite similar with internet marketing and the products that offer shortcuts to wealth and income. I always feel like forums are the most honest, least path of resistance way to gain knowledge about a particular topic.

        In this case, I want to learn how to research keywords, design a site that using SEO targets small but consistent traffic, and funnel the users to either affiliated links, products, or adsense links to earn income.

        EDIT: Further. I have no real interest in creating my own products, or enriching a brand. I solely want to make money by funneling search results to other sites products and monetizing the traffic.
        What makes the Internet different than body building is that there ARE shortcuts.

        If I want to build muscle, there's really only one way to do it. If you want a six pack, you're going to have to work your abdominal muscles, and it's just that simple. You can learn how to do it more effectively, but no matter how much "knowledge" you have about body building, you still have to DO it. Knowledge doesn't replace labor.

        But with IM, knowledge does replace labor.

        If you make a blog post, you have to find a picture for that post. You can spend your time searching for images and buy them, or you can install a plugin that does the work and automatically searches 80,000 images to find the right one for your post. That's a piece of software someone here promoted, big honking red text and all, and it does exactly what it said it was going to do. By spending $18 on that product, you save countless hours not having to search for images.

        Next you need to get traffic to that post. You can sit around and wait for Google to index it and hope you snag a few. Or you can learn some SEO tricks from someone selling a strategy... stuff that you wouldn't have thought of on your own. Maybe it will work for your situation, maybe it won't, but you've acquired knowledge you didn't have before. There's value in that. Sure, you could have figured it out on your own at some point... but when? You just downloaded someone else's trial and error right to your brain, whether it worked exactly as they described for you or not you're still smarter than you were yesterday.

        So now you're getting traffic, how do you monetize the site? You could run Adsense, and learn from people here who sell Adsense strategies ranging from how to target keywords that pay more per click, or how to lay out your pages to encourage higher CTR's.

        You could build a list and start sending out emails, testing over and over what subjects to use and how much content should be in the message. Or you can buy a guide from someone who's been doing it ten years longer than you and follow his method.

        See where I'm going with this?

        Sure, you could learn all of this stuff on your own without buying anything. You're free to do stuff the hard way.

        You can ask around in forums and get ten different answers, and try them all to see which one was right.

        Or you can just buy the product that has the answer (or at least claims to), do what they say, and skip all the trial and error. In the end, one of two things will happen:

        1. You will learn how to do something you didn't know before, or
        2. You will learn what DOESN'T work.

        Both are valuable in their own way. Obviously the former is better than the latter, but there's value in either way. Paying $7, following a set of instructions to the letter, and not getting the advertised result is still cheaper than the guessing game and the hours it would have taken to come to the same conclusion on your own.

        But that's just me, I consider time a more precious commodity than money.

        If you can make it out, come to the Warrior Event in March - you'll pick up a ton of information on the Internet marketing cycle and how/why it works.
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        • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
          Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

          What makes the Internet different than body building is that there ARE shortcuts.

          If I want to build muscle, there's really only one way to do it. If you want a six pack, you're going to have to work your abdominal muscles, and it's just that simple. You can learn how to do it more effectively, but no matter how much "knowledge" you have about body building, you still have to DO it. Knowledge doesn't replace labor.

          But with IM, knowledge does replace labor.

          If you make a blog post, you have to find a picture for that post. You can spend your time searching for images and buy them, or you can install a plugin that does the work and automatically searches 80,000 images to find the right one for your post. That's a piece of software someone here promoted, big honking red text and all, and it does exactly what it said it was going to do. By spending $18 on that product, you save countless hours not having to search for images.

          Next you need to get traffic to that post. You can sit around and wait for Google to index it and hope you snag a few. Or you can learn some SEO tricks from someone selling a strategy... stuff that you wouldn't have thought of on your own. Maybe it will work for your situation, maybe it won't, but you've acquired knowledge you didn't have before. There's value in that. Sure, you could have figured it out on your own at some point... but when? You just downloaded someone else's trial and error right to your brain, whether it worked exactly as they described for you or not you're still smarter than you were yesterday.

          So now you're getting traffic, how do you monetize the site? You could run Adsense, and learn from people here who sell Adsense strategies ranging from how to target keywords that pay more per click, or how to lay out your pages to encourage higher CTR's.

          You could build a list and start sending out emails, testing over and over what subjects to use and how much content should be in the message. Or you can buy a guide from someone who's been doing it ten years longer than you and follow his method.

          See where I'm going with this?

          Sure, you could learn all of this stuff on your own without buying anything. You're free to do stuff the hard way.

          You can ask around in forums and get ten different answers, and try them all to see which one was right.

          Or you can just buy the product that has the answer (or at least claims to), do what they say, and skip all the trial and error. In the end, one of two things will happen:

          1. You will learn how to do something you didn't know before, or
          2. You will learn what DOESN'T work.

          Both are valuable in their own way. Obviously the former is better than the latter, but there's value in either way. Paying $7, following a set of instructions to the letter, and not getting the advertised result is still cheaper than the guessing game and the hours it would have taken to come to the same conclusion on your own.

          But that's just me, I consider time a more precious commodity than money.

          If you can make it out, come to the Warrior Event in March - you'll pick up a ton of information on the Internet marketing cycle and how/why it works.
          Wonderful information. And I'm QUITE willing to purchase a piece of software, IF there is a benefit to it. MS seemed to have pretty accurate information but it clearly coalates results from Magestic, Bing and Google, all of which are readily accessible through my own clicks.

          It does lay it out in tabular format with color codes which makes it easier to do that research. In addition, apparently MS uses its own proxies to do the searches.
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          • Profile picture of the author HN
            Banned
            Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

            Wonderful information. And I'm QUITE willing to purchase a piece of software, IF there is a benefit to it. MS seemed to have pretty accurate information but it clearly coalates results from Magestic, Bing and Google, all of which are readily accessible through my own clicks.

            It does lay it out in tabular format with color codes which makes it easier to do that research. In addition, apparently MS uses its own proxies to do the searches.
            You don't even have to purchase any software. I have created one of those SEO tools myself and I can set up an account for you. All I ask in return is that you compare it to other tools that you are using and tell me what you think. Of course you can do the keyword research with Keyword Planner or any other tools, most of which are fetching data from KP anyway, but check this out...

            Body - Keyword list

            Look at the number of results that you get in 5 seconds, without the need to use any proxies or having to wait until the software grabs the data from Google, Majestic etc. Compare it with results that you get from Keyword Planner when you use seed keyword "body". Or see how long the other tools will take to analyze 6000 keywords.

            When you use Keyword Planner or tools that pull data from it you will miss a lot of keywords. For example try seed keyword "frank".
            Keyword planner's results:
            paul frank 110,000 (global searches)
            dodd frank 40,500
            And now look how many keywords you would miss: Frank - Keyword list
            frank ocean 673,000
            frank sinatra 550,000
            anne frank 450,000
            frank lampard 201,000

            That's the reason I created my own keyword database.
            As you can see my site is exactly opposite to what you have come across so far. No flashy sales letter or hype / ridiculous claims. In fact I haven't even decided whether to release it to general public or not (I might if I find a good partner), because I think you are right, when you have a tool that beats all the competition, why share it for pennies instead of keeping it all to yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author helpinghand182
    The MMO niche is massive and this place is a haven for those looking to make a quick buck of newbies. Why else do people want to become internet marketers other than to earn money and independence for themselves and this of course is an internet marketing forum.

    Soon after I joined I started a pretty controversial thread about the "hype" in the WSO comments and was wondering if this sleaziness actually worked. Well for the vast majority of their target market it does and they will always be working of the lowest common denominator to get people to buy their products. A lot of the copy writing is repetitive and dumb but hey - who cares if it works for them !

    As you gain experience, you will develop a "filter" that helps to rid the BS from the helpful information. My advice is to be as skeptical as possible starting out as nearly everyone has an agenda - which obviously boils down to lining the old pockets! You seem to have figured it out pretty quickly though so I am sure you'l be okay! Feel free to PM if you need any advice
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  • Profile picture of the author aleksbogata
    Ha, I love your post!

    When I was first introduced to IM I was ashamed to tell any of my friends about it and it was because of the sleazebag factor. The 'community' that introduced me to IM was the same and I remember thinking oh god what am I getting myself into. After spending a few thousand bucks on what was essentially a pyramid scheme I had learnt enough to know it was not my thing. I don't regret it though as it opened the door to a whole new world that I am really enjoying being part of. Lucky for me though, I did find some coaching that restored my faith in IM folk and then of course the Warrior Forum helped the process along.

    I do still get annoyed with some posts that say, I am a newbie, how do I make $100K etc etc. This is part of what gives IM such a bad name, I mean it's a business and it takes hard work to build something sustainable. I for one couldn't do spam marketing and promote anything to make a quick buck. I want to be proud of my business and my achievements!

    Stick to WF and you won't be disappointed. Sure people want to make money on here just like anywhere but the help is genuine most of the time and when people post where you can clearly see their sleazy marketing intentions, nobody bothers to respond which is great!

    I get my point is we all get to choose what type of internet marketers we become and anyway the big wheel turns and you get what you give.
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    • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
      Originally Posted by aleksbogata View Post

      Ha, I love your post!

      When I was first introduced to IM I was ashamed to tell any of my friends about it and it was because of the sleazebag factor. The 'community' that introduced me to IM was the same and I remember thinking oh god what am I getting myself into. After spending a few thousand bucks on what was essentially a pyramid scheme I had learnt enough to know it was not my thing. I don't regret it though as it opened the door to a whole new world that I am really enjoying being part of. Lucky for me though, I did find some coaching that restored my faith in IM folk and then of course the Warrior Forum helped the process along.

      I do still get annoyed with some posts that say, I am a newbie, how do I make $100K etc etc. This is part of what gives IM such a bad name, I mean it's a business and it takes hard work to build something sustainable. I for one couldn't do spam marketing and promote anything to make a quick buck. I want to be proud of my business and my achievements!

      Stick to WF and you won't be disappointed. Sure people want to make money on here just like anywhere but the help is genuine most of the time and when people post where you can clearly see their sleazy marketing intentions, nobody bothers to respond which is great!

      I get my point is we all get to choose what type of internet marketers we become and anyway the big wheel turns and you get what you give.

      Great post, and thanks for the reply. Also I spam thanked everyone, because you've all helped a lot, and haven't run me off as a jerk, which is greatly appreciated.

      I do hope everyone understands from the tone of my post I don't consider people here on WF to be "sleazy", just the marketing techniques geared for the "lowest common denominator" as was said upthread.

      I can't offer much in the way of advice on niche markets, as I don't know jack about them. But i'll certainly hang out and offer any help I can wrt advertising/design/workflow, as I've got about 17 years total experience under my belt.

      Maybe for my douchey picture of myself, I can have one of the Emmy I won. ( Yes, I won a Technical Emmy )
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      • Profile picture of the author aleksbogata
        Bragging already, geeez :p

        Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

        Maybe for my douchey picture of myself, I can have one of the Emmy I won. ( Yes, I won a Technical Emmy )
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        Who's your favourite coach/mentor: Alex Jeffreys -v- Kenster -v- Stuart Ross?

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    • Profile picture of the author Shadowflux
      You mentioned bodybuilding and I think that's a great example. Think back to when you first entered the weight room. You wanted to be big, strong, lift more than the other guys. Naturally, you went out looking for information or products which will help. The vast majority of related products and information is either useless or flat out wrong.

      What you learned, over time, is that the secret to getting big and strong is to follow a set routine, eat right, sleep right, and stick to the plan. It's really that simple. Working hard and resting well is all you needed to do.

      It's exactly the same with IM. I don't even like to refer to IM as an industry for precisely the reasons you've mentioned. The way I see it, "Internet Marketing" isn't really an industry. It's just marketing which uses the internet as its primary vehicle of information distribution.

      The secret to real success in IM is simple. It's the same as any other profession, industry, or skill set. Offer something of real value and you will have no trouble making money from it. The amount of money you make will always vary, the important thing is that you're promoting, creating, or otherwise selling something of real value.

      IM takes work. That's why so many people are willing to take the "easiest path" which is basically selling BS to people who don't know any better. Just look at the gym. How many guys do you see doing 1,000 and 1/2 different leg exercises when all they need to do is unrack a bar and do some real squats? How many pointless isolation exercises are people doing when they could just deadlift instead?

      Squats and deadlifts look hard, they are hard, but that hard work offers the most benefit.

      Taking the "easy path" is pointless. You'll end up doing more work for less return and still not achieve your goals. It only seems easy at the moment.

      My suggestion would be to stop viewing IM as an industry, or even as a job. Your job is whatever you want it to be. Marketing is simply how you reach customers, gain clients, and inform people of the high value product or service you offer.

      If you follow sound business practices, act as professionally as possible, and are willing to put in work today for a paycheck tomorrow, then you've got everything you need to succeed in this world.
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      Native Advertising Specialist
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  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    As for Pat Flynn...if you look at his earnings posts, th vast majority of that comes from being a bluehost affiliate, I believe. Month after month. He even has a link to the video, and I believe that is where most of it comes from. Do yourself a favor and click the link.

    I think he is pretty transparent with what he does. I am not so sure his previous tactics work now. Though I haven't really paid a lot of attention to him since my ipod died and I found what works for me.

    I think he is genuine. And you dont pull in 50k per month by not knowing what you are doing. And I've never seen the big Pat Flynn launch. He does what he teaches. Which is more than a lot can say.
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanGueterbock
    Many people are blessed with copyrighting skills, web design skills, graphics skills, or sales skills. Only few are blessed with the full package.

    The IM niche mostly exist of individuals or small businesses creating products from the ground up, with just one or two of the skills listed above. Very few "Full Package" brands in IM.
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    MY EXACT BLUE PRINT TO EARN $12,950 A MONTH SELLING DIGITAL PRODUCTS.
    http://eproductmarketer.com
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  • Profile picture of the author jwmann2
    Because marketers are only out for money and don't want to put the work in to bring something useful and meaningful to audiences. Quick money, how can I make quick money? No one wants to work anymore. People are also skeptical about telemarketing, identity theft, investments, etc. now. Every night on the news, we hear about some guy that scammed a number of people out of thousands of dollars. We take that and are skeptical about spending money on products we're unsure about so that's why it looks sleazy.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      So the gist of what I am reading is, you understand the process, you just don't know what to process.

      You are personally to tapped out to create your own product, you want to sell someone else's.

      As much as you understand the process, you don't understand the specifics of locating a niche. However, you do understand what a niche is.

      I personally, across the board sell my own products, So I am of no use when it comes to finding that item or set of items for you. All I can say is find something in line with what you find of interest. If you are going to spend time looking and researching something, might as well be something you enjoy.

      Narrowing down a niche, well thats something I can help with. I noticed you mentioned long tail keywords so I will use a example you will understand. ( I am in now way suggesting any thing other than using what I know to be your understanding as written here, as a guide to help and point things out )

      Long Keyword strings start somewhere. That would generally be from a single or base keyword. I will use Weight Loss as an example ( I know its 2 words )
      • Weight Loss
      • Weight Loss Program
      • Weight Loss Program for Men
      • Weight Loss Program for Men and Women
      • Weight Loss Program for Men and Women in Las Vegas
      So right at Weight Loss Program for Men, this chain is in the Niche Category (Barely ), getting into Las Vegas it becomes a Micro Niche.

      You want to create the same chain for what it is that interests you. A lot of times you can simply do as above and create the chain without ever referring to google or yahoo to figure it out.

      If you need help digging deeper and there is a step I will mention in a bit you will, I personally use Google AdWords. Get in there open "Tools and Analysis" then click "search for new keyword and ad search ideas" type In a keyword phrase, and a bunch of options appear. Its magic! Play around with it a little, you will get the idea.

      OK so the product is on you, you now have an idea of how to find a niche so off to site building.

      Here is my personal strategy. Once I have targeted my product, I create a list of the top 200 Keywords from Base to long tail, and everything in between that is directly related by relevance to my product. This list becomes the blueprint to the development of my site and plausible advertising, be it in FB or Pinterest, or what ever.

      You want to get as many of those words integrated into your site. I tend to over build, just to get the full 200 in if I can. There are some cases, I just cant, well ok I'm to lazy too, I will tell you from experience, when I'm lazy it shows in the end results.

      I don't know if you are planning on using a blog, if you are. That same 200 keyword list. The blueprint, to your success needs to be introduced to the blog as well. 1 Blog post for EACH keyword. Yes 200 Posts. When I am first starting up a site, I will sit and write 2 hours a day every day until there is a check mark next to each and every word. Its Anal... I know, but this is what I have found to work for me.

      from this point you move into creating traffic to your site. You work at an Ad Agency I am going to assume you understand at least somewhat this process. If you have specific questions by all means ask, you will get an answer of some kind or another I am sure.

      Hope That Helps, and good luck!
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      • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        So the gist of what I am reading is, you understand the process, you just don't know what to process.

        You are personally to tapped out to create your own product, you want to sell someone else's.

        As much as you understand the process, you don't understand the specifics of locating a niche. However, you do understand what a niche is.

        I personally, across the board sell my own products, So I am of no use when it comes to finding that item or set of items for you. All I can say is find something in line with what you find of interest. If you are going to spend time looking and researching something, might as well be something you enjoy.

        Narrowing down a niche, well thats something I can help with. I noticed you mentioned long tail keywords so I will use a example you will understand. ( I am in now way suggesting any thing other than using what I know to be your understanding as written here, as a guide to help and point things out )

        Long Keyword strings start somewhere. That would generally be from a single or base keyword. I will use Weight Loss as an example ( I know its 2 words )
        • Weight Loss
        • Weight Loss Program
        • Weight Loss Program for Men
        • Weight Loss Program for Men and Women
        • Weight Loss Program for Men and Women in Las Vegas
        So right at Weight Loss Program for Men, this chain is in the Niche Category (Barely ), getting into Las Vegas it becomes a Micro Niche.

        You want to create the same chain for what it is that interests you. A lot of times you can simply do as above and create the chain without ever referring to google or yahoo to figure it out.

        If you need help digging deeper and there is a step I will mention in a bit you will, I personally use Google AdWords. Get in there open "Tools and Analysis" then click "search for new keyword and ad search ideas" type In a keyword phrase, and a bunch of options appear. Its magic! Play around with it a little, you will get the idea.

        OK so the product is on you, you now have an idea of how to find a niche so off to site building.

        Here is my personal strategy. Once I have targeted my product, I create a list of the top 200 Keywords from Base to long tail, and everything in between that is directly related by relevance to my product. This list becomes the blueprint to the development of my site and plausible advertising, be it in FB or Pinterest, or what ever.

        You want to get as many of those words integrated into your site. I tend to over build, just to get the full 200 in if I can. There are some cases, I just cant, well ok I'm to lazy too, I will tell you from experience, when I'm lazy it shows in the end results.

        I don't know if you are planning on using a blog, if you are. That same 200 keyword list. The blueprint, to your success needs to be introduced to the blog as well. 1 Blog post for EACH keyword. Yes 200 Posts. When I am first starting up a site, I will sit and write 2 hours a day every day until there is a check mark next to each and every word. Its Anal... I know, but this is what I have found to work for me.

        from this point you move into creating traffic to your site. You work at an Ad Agency I am going to assume you understand at least somewhat this process. If you have specific questions by all means ask, you will get an answer of some kind or another I am sure.

        Hope That Helps, and good luck!
        Would you say that the process might go something like this:

        1. Find a niche that is popular enough to support microniches
        2. Determine a list of micro niches that have traffic
        3. Pick a micro niche based one competition and potential for revenue (high CPC for example)
        4. Look at the keywords which got the site that ranking and emulate them
        5. determine the anchor texts which populate that sites backlinks and try to emulate those as well.

        What else am i missing? (this is not even starting to get into, which product should you use for each step)
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

          Would you say that the process might go something like this:

          1. Find a niche that is popular enough to support microniches
          2. Determine a list of micro niches that have traffic
          3. Pick a micro niche based one competition and potential for revenue (high CPC for example)
          4. Look at the keywords which got the site that ranking and emulate them
          5. determine the anchor texts which populate that sites backlinks and try to emulate those as well.

          What else am i missing? (this is not even starting to get into, which product should you use for each step)
          Ok so lets say the niche is quilting.

          In quilts there will be Micro niches, Star Pattern, Northern Lights, double square, and triple square etc.

          I personally use the number of search results for an indicator of the niche potential. you want at least 100,000 and somewhere in the 1,000,000 area to be a potential candidate.

          I do look at competitors sites at some point, but NOT for the reasons you are stating. Again, I develop my blueprint ( 200 keywords ) and that is what I base my anchor text, and in general SEO on.

          The reason I look at competing sites, is to determine the questions they are answering. This is at times not in the literal sense. It pertains to what is the need these sites are filling. basically WHY they are popular sites.

          I do have to caution you and reiterate the fact that you really need to start in an area of interest to you. Believe it or not, there is a level of topic understanding, of knowledge, of passion for the subject that carries across your over all image IE your website.

          If you are in a market, because that is where the money is at, it will show. If you are there because it is something you have an interest for, THAT will show. you will be come a part of the community, a trusted source.

          Keep in mind, as much as you think this new endeavor is going to be hands free and easy, you still have to produce 2-3 e-mails a week. You have to continually develop new content. If you know very little on the subject, these simple tasks become a chore, and or an expense.

          If you can for 2 seconds take your mind out of "I'm going to do this for money", and look at "I am going to do this because I want to share something I like". That is the difference between failure and success.

          Let me give you an off the wall example of what I am saying. I Personally drive Ford Trucks, Specifically F-150's with extended cab. Even more specifically I drive FX4 extended cab F150's. ( So there is a niche, Ford. A narrowed down Niche F150, and the micro niche is FX4 F150 Extended Cab )

          I recently went in to buy a new truck. I ALWAYS ask for the worse performing salesperson they have. The manager always gets a laugh out of it, and points me in the right direction. I already know what I want when I get there, for me its about getting the right price. So I tell the guy I want a grey 2 tone FX4 F150 extended cab.

          90% of the time, after telling them what I want, they show me something else. And before you ask.. yes I buy a truck or 2 a year. I own a satellite installation company. ( this would be the part about finding the questions that are being answered ) So after explaining what it is I want again, I generally lead the salesperson to the truck I want.

          I then ask the salesman to sell me on this vehicle. They usually just look at me ( DUH ) Its what you asked for what else do you want. I start asking questions that compare the new truck to the one I drove to the lot. What is the difference in turn radius etc. In all the years I have done this, there has yet to be a sales person that could answer the questions, usually not a 1 of them.

          The reason this guy is the worst sales person is due to lack of knowledge on the product. He doesn't want to be there. He doesn't have that Ford passion and probably drives a chevy to work. Someone like myself has to walk them through the sales process.

          Start with what you know. Use that as the learning process. Once you understand all the dynamics of selling online. Once you KNOW the process, then venture out, and try to tap into the financial advantages of other niches. Until that happens in most cases you will be chasing expectations. this product, that product. This niche that niche. make 1 work, and the rest is easy! Stop looking outside of yourself for financial success. Your financial freedom is within YOU!

          Hope that Helps!
          Signature
          Success is an ACT not an idea
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          • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            Ok so lets say the niche is quilting.

            In quilts there will be Micro niches, Star Pattern, Northern Lights, double square, and triple square etc.

            I personally use the number of search results for an indicator of the niche potential. you want at least 100,000 and somewhere in the 1,000,000 area to be a potential candidate.

            I do look at competitors sites at some point, but NOT for the reasons you are stating. Again, I develop my blueprint ( 200 keywords ) and that is what I base my anchor text, and in general SEO on.

            The reason I look at competing sites, is to determine the questions they are answering. This is at times not in the literal sense. It pertains to what is the need these sites are filling. basically WHY they are popular sites.

            I do have to caution you and reiterate the fact that you really need to start in an area of interest to you. Believe it or not, there is a level of topic understanding, of knowledge, of passion for the subject that carries across your over all image IE your website.

            If you are in a market, because that is where the money is at, it will show. If you are there because it is something you have an interest for, THAT will show. you will be come a part of the community, a trusted source.

            Keep in mind, as much as you think this new endeavor is going to be hands free and easy, you still have to produce 2-3 e-mails a week. You have to continually develop new content. If you know very little on the subject, these simple tasks become a chore, and or an expense.

            If you can for 2 seconds take your mind out of "I'm going to do this for money", and look at "I am going to do this because I want to share something I like". That is the difference between failure and success.

            Let me give you an off the wall example of what I am saying. I Personally drive Ford Trucks, Specifically F-150's with extended cab. Even more specifically I drive FX4 extended cab F150's. ( So there is a niche, Ford. A narrowed down Niche F150, and the micro niche is FX4 F150 Extended Cab )

            I recently went in to buy a new truck. I ALWAYS ask for the worse performing salesperson they have. The manager always gets a laugh out of it, and points me in the right direction. I already know what I want when I get there, for me its about getting the right price. So I tell the guy I want a grey 2 tone FX4 F150 extended cab.

            90% of the time, after telling them what I want, they show me something else. And before you ask.. yes I buy a truck or 2 a year. I own a satellite installation company. ( this would be the part about finding the questions that are being answered ) So after explaining what it is I want again, I generally lead the salesperson to the truck I want.

            I then ask the salesman to sell me on this vehicle. They usually just look at me ( DUH ) Its what you asked for what else do you want. I start asking questions that compare the new truck to the one I drove to the lot. What is the difference in turn radius etc. In all the years I have done this, there has yet to be a sales person that could answer the questions, usually not a 1 of them.

            The reason this guy is the worst sales person is due to lack of knowledge on the product. He doesn't want to be there. He doesn't have that Ford passion and probably drives a chevy to work. Someone like myself has to walk them through the sales process.

            Start with what you know. Use that as the learning process. Once you understand all the dynamics of selling online. Once you KNOW the process, then venture out, and try to tap into the financial advantages of other niches. Until that happens in most cases you will be chasing expectations. this product, that product. This niche that niche. make 1 work, and the rest is easy! Stop looking outside of yourself for financial success. Your financial freedom is within YOU!

            Hope that Helps!
            How do you tell how many searches are done for a keyword. Google's keyword planner has a tool for it, but the numbers seem really low for "avg monthly searches"

            US, All Languages search for "home loan" shows only 6600 searches. That seems impossible.

            As for the hard work part, I'm not concerned about that. Standing up a site, doing seo for it, and writing copy are childs play for me. I've done dozens. After working in advertising and doing freelance AND running my own sites for years, the infrastructure aspect of doing this is minimal effort. I literally just need to figure out WHERE to direct that effort.

            I've already created one site and got through about 1/3 of the content when the site hit page 1 on google and i realized it was getting no traffic anyways, and it was then that i realized the niche itself was a bad choice.
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            • Profile picture of the author HN
              Banned
              Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

              How do you tell how many searches are done for a keyword. Google's keyword planner has a tool for it, but the numbers seem really low for "avg monthly searches"

              US, All Languages search for "home loan" shows only 6600 searches. That seems impossible.
              6600 from USA, 40,500 Global. This link shows both at the same time and also the % of searches coming from USA.

              Home Loan - Keyword list
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              • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                Originally Posted by HN View Post

                6600 from USA, 40,500 Global. This link shows both at the same time and also the % of searches coming from USA.

                Home Loan - Keyword list
                Ok. So there are more search results globally. The number still seem kinda low.

                But if you guys say its legit, I shall believe you.

                I have to say, that until now I haven't seen any niches that get 100K+ so I guess thats part of the real trick eh?

                How do you guys like to look at your competition? Do you go to google and just use seoquake or something else to guage PR, BLD, etc?
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                • Profile picture of the author HN
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                  I have to say, that until now I haven't seen any niches that get 100K+ so I guess thats part of the real trick eh?

                  How do you guys like to look at your competition? Do you go to google and just use seoquake or something else to guage PR, BLD, etc?
                  Because there are not many 100K+ keywords. My database has 33,000 keywords that get more than 100K global searches.

                  100K+ Keyword List

                  Of course it will take forever to scroll through this keyword list, unless you use filters to get rid of useless ones. Why do you want to find 100K keywords? You probably don't really need those, unless you are creating a really big site.
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                  • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                    Originally Posted by HN View Post

                    Because there are not many 100K+ keywords. My database has 33,000 keywords that get more than 100K global searches.

                    100K+ Keyword List

                    Of course it will take forever to scroll through this keyword list, unless you use filters to get rid of useless ones. Why do you want to find 100K keywords? You probably don't really need those, unless you are creating a really big site.
                    savidge4 said to look for sites with 100K-1M monthly searches.
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                    • Profile picture of the author HN
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                      savidge4 said to look for sites with 100K-1M monthly searches.
                      Oh, I see. I am sure he means the number of search results in Google, not the search volume for keyword. In other words, how many sites come up in Google search results when you search for that particular keyword (phrase). At least 100K websites means the niche is popular, but more than 1M means it's too crowded and difficult to rank. I believe this was his message.

                      When you look at my keyword tool it's the "Google Results" or the "Actual Competition" column that needs to be 100K - 1M.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                        Originally Posted by HN View Post

                        Oh, I see. I am sure he means the number of search results in Google, not the search volume for keyword. In other words, how many sites come up in Google search results when you search for that particular keyword (phrase). At least 100K websites means the niche is popular, but more than 1M means it's too crowded and difficult to rank. I believe this was his message.

                        When you look at my keyword tool it's the "Google Results" or the "Actual Competition" column that needs to be 100K - 1M.
                        I really thought they meant search volume.

                        I see. ok. i think i get it.

                        who runs that keyword tool you linked me to?
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                        • Profile picture of the author HN
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                          I really thought they meant search volume.

                          I see. ok. i think i get it.

                          who runs that keyword tool you linked me to?
                          It's my own custom built keyword tool. It took about 3 months to collect the keywords. If you want to try it, you can create an account and I will activate it.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

              How do you tell how many searches are done for a keyword. Google's keyword planner has a tool for it, but the numbers seem really low for "avg monthly searches"

              US, All Languages search for "home loan" shows only 6600 searches. That seems impossible.

              As for the hard work part, I'm not concerned about that. Standing up a site, doing seo for it, and writing copy are childs play for me. I've done dozens. After working in advertising and doing freelance AND running my own sites for years, the infrastructure aspect of doing this is minimal effort. I literally just need to figure out WHERE to direct that effort.

              I've already created one site and got through about 1/3 of the content when the site hit page 1 on google and i realized it was getting no traffic anyways, and it was then that i realized the niche itself was a bad choice.
              I go right to the search box, and get the number of related PAGES. "Home Loan" would be 532 million pages. Where as "Home Loans in Bridgeport WV" would be 98,700 pages

              Here is the thing, you can get so tied into hitting a "micro niche" that yes your traffic maybe minimal, but your overall possible conversion may be good. You could get 100 people to your site a month with 10% conversion because you are so tight in the traffic, or you can get 10,000 a month with .1 conversion. They both in the end are the same.

              You ultimately want to target the niche, to get the overall traffic, and sell your product, within the micro niche that comes across. Using the example from earlier today, Quilts. You may want to TARGET the "Star Pattern" but the niche "Quilt Patterns" will bring the traffic, and also meet the criteria to bring people seeking the "Star Pattern" You increase you potential of conversion by taking traffic a level or 2 up from where you are targeting to maybe expose them to something specifically related to what they do, but may not be doing.

              As to what to target your energy towards... I'm good at selling Satellitte Internet online. Im good at writing a blog on the up and coming 4k tv and content market. Im good at a piece of the Halloween niche. Im good at walking people through the process.. what Im not good at... looking at you and sayin, Hey you should get into selling information on X.

              Lets try this another way.. you work in advertising. What would be your ideal Demographic to work with? Lets just say Women 18 to 24. What generally do women 18 to 24 want? Need? ask about? Lets say weight loss. OK so we now have a female 18 -24 that wants info on weight loss. what would be some of the micro niches. Weight loss after pregnancy, weight loss due to depression etc.

              That is the process to figuring it out. If you follow logic steps from broad to focused, and then place your energy 2 steps back from as focused as you can get it, you will generally find in any subject, that there is the traffic and the community to support your efforts.

              Hope that Helps!
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              • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                I go right to the search box, and get the number of related PAGES. "Home Loan" would be 532 million pages. Where as "Home Loans in Bridgeport WV" would be 98,700 pages
                Ok, so in the case of home loans in bridgeport WV, lets say you nailed it and got the #1 result. How would you monetize it?

                Same with the quilts. How do you monetize that?

                BTW, really appreciate the patience and help.

                As for target, demographic.... I have a hard time identifying with anyone, because I don't spend money on anything So I just do what I"m told.
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                • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                  Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                  Ok, so in the case of home loans in bridgeport WV, lets say you nailed it and got the #1 result. How would you monetize it?

                  Same with the quilts. How do you monetize that?

                  BTW, really appreciate the patience and help.

                  As for target, demographic.... I have a hard time identifying with anyone, because I don't spend money on anything So I just do what I"m told.
                  Not to sound like a broken record, but this is where KNOWING your subject matter helps.

                  I can say that looking at home loans there are many many micro niches, I would probably get into "refinancing home loans" and produce a product, to get the MOST out of your home with the appraisal process. A nice little e-book with before and after type projects that create value in your home for little to no cost kind a thing. ( I personally create all of my products, or actually sell physical products. )

                  Quilting hmm My wifes mother makes quilts... her arms always are hurting, it seems a lot of people that quilt have arthritis to. I would probably look into going that direction. ( as far as an affiliate type product )

                  Another thing that you can look at is clickbank. They provide other peoples product for you to move IE affiliate programs. Start poking around there and see what there is to sell.

                  Hope that Helps!
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                  • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                    Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                    Not to sound like a broken record, but this is where KNOWING your subject matter helps.

                    I can say that looking at home loans there are many many micro niches, I would probably get into "refinancing home loans" and produce a product, to get the MOST out of your home with the appraisal process. A nice little e-book with before and after type projects that create value in your home for little to no cost kind a thing. ( I personally create all of my products, or actually sell physical products. )

                    Quilting hmm My wifes mother makes quilts... her arms always are hurting, it seems a lot of people that quilt have arthritis to. I would probably look into going that direction. ( as far as an affiliate type product )

                    Another thing that you can look at is clickbank. They provide other peoples product for you to move IE affiliate programs. Start poking around there and see what there is to sell.

                    Hope that Helps!
                    You rock. Going to look at click bank.

                    Ok, so just as an exercise, I decided to take something I know a lot about (and can at least write about even if I don't buy the brand) and looked up watches.

                    I found from wordtracker that there is a keyword search for "juicy couture watches" With the following results

                    Search Term # AVG COMP
                    juicy couture watches (search) 15,102 6

                    That LOOKS like a decent number of searches with low competition

                    Google keyword planner however shows:
                    juicy couture watches
                    8,100 volume with High competition and CPC of $1.07

                    A quick google search result shows that almost every page on the front page is selling those watches so its a bunch of ebay and nordstrom links i'll never touch.

                    Further, trying to go more longtail, cheap juicy couture watches show 50 average search results on keyword planner, fake juicy couture watches show 0, and so on. Juicy couture watch review(s) shows about 10 monthly searches.

                    So how do you interpret this data. It would appear a long tail variation on the search has no volume, while the search for the keyword itself has direct competition from sellers of the product.
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                    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                      Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                      You rock. Going to look at click bank.

                      Ok, so just as an exercise, I decided to take something I know a lot about (and can at least write about even if I don't buy the brand) and looked up watches.

                      I found from wordtracker that there is a keyword search for "juicy couture watches" With the following results

                      Search Term # AVG COMP
                      juicy couture watches (search) 15,102 6

                      That LOOKS like a decent number of searches with low competition

                      Google keyword planner however shows:
                      juicy couture watches
                      8,100 volume with High competition and CPC of $1.07

                      A quick google search result shows that almost every page on the front page is selling those watches so its a bunch of ebay and nordstrom links i'll never touch.

                      Further, trying to go more longtail, cheap juicy couture watches show 50 average search results on keyword planner, fake juicy couture watches show 0, and so on. Juicy couture watch review(s) shows about 10 monthly searches.

                      So how do you interpret this data. It would appear a long tail variation on the search has no volume, while the search for the keyword itself has direct competition from sellers of the product.
                      So we are looking for a "niche" we can work with ( and a product that interests you hahaha ) the term list might look like this.

                      • Watch
                      • Couture watch
                      • Juicy Couture watch
                      • Womens Juicy Couture watch
                      • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet
                      • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons
                      So you have "watch" on top with 1.4 billion related pages in the search results, and 2 million with "Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons" even that is really not low enough ( for me anyways ) so we go a step farther and add
                      • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons 50%
                      this now puts us at 762,000 relevant pages. This has put us in a target area that is niche able


                      So now I go into Adwords, and look.... well crud "Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons 50%" has 0 traffic, and "Juicy Couture watch" only has 3600 a week. Looking back at "Juicy Couture watch" there are 16 million relevant pages on google.... talk about saturated.

                      A number by itself can be an indicator, a number that you compare with another is more precise. Adwords as compared to total pages is a good comparison. 16 million pages, only 3600 searches This overall would not be a good niche to get into.

                      That being said, you can use the internet for many things.. You see these watches sell for hundreds of dollars. Ebay has 700 of them of or sale. If you could pay $50 on average. Build a high end looking online store and work the niche, I would bet that it would be a real good money maker.

                      The above is how my mind works... like I said I like physical product.

                      Does that make it clearer?
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                      • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
                        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                        So we are looking for a "niche" we can work with ( and a product that interests you hahaha ) the term list might look like this.

                        • Watch
                        • Couture watch
                        • Juicy Couture watch
                        • Womens Juicy Couture watch
                        • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet
                        • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons
                        So you have "watch" on top with 1.4 billion related pages in the search results, and 2 million with "Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons" even that is really not low enough ( for me anyways ) so we go a step farther and add
                        • Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons 50%
                        this now puts us at 762,000 relevant pages. This has put us in a target area that is niche able


                        So now I go into Adwords, and look.... well crud "Womens Juicy Couture watch outlet coupons 50%" has 0 traffic, and "Juicy Couture watch" only has 3600 a week. Looking back at "Juicy Couture watch" there are 16 million relevant pages on google.... talk about saturated.

                        A number by itself can be an indicator, a number that you compare with another is more precise. Adwords as compared to total pages is a good comparison. 16 million pages, only 3600 searches This overall would not be a good niche to get into.

                        That being said, you can use the internet for many things.. You see these watches sell for hundreds of dollars. Ebay has 700 of them of or sale. If you could pay $50 on average. Build a high end looking online store and work the niche, I would bet that it would be a real good money maker.

                        The above is how my mind works... like I said I like physical product.

                        Does that make it clearer?
                        Brilliant and great answer. So, from my perspective, working my butt off on the hopes and dreams of buying low and selling high end watches and THEN ranking myself sounds awful.

                        I would rather try to come up with a reasonable niche that I can write about that doesn't have that level of saturation.
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                        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                          Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

                          Brilliant and great answer. So, from my perspective, working my butt off on the hopes and dreams of buying low and selling high end watches and THEN ranking myself sounds awful.

                          I would rather try to come up with a reasonable niche that I can write about that doesn't have that level of saturation.

                          For a beginner yes... for me I am actually considering this one HAHAHA

                          A reasonable niche with minimal saturation would be optimal yes. ( to start ) Once you understand "the game" you can start moving up the food chain a bit. The higher the chain the more the traffic, the more the potential for money.

                          First starting you want to learn how to target a specific audience or a niche. As you gain control of all the workings from the development to getting traffic, scaling becomes easier.

                          When I talk about scaling, I am referring to spreading across horizontally in a market. From Earlier we were looking at selling Juicy Couture watches. Say that was successful. My niche really is "Couture Watches" and the Micro is "Juicy" So I can expand across to "LE Couture Watches" or "Ceramic Couture Watches" Stay within my niche, but EXPAND my micro niche reach.

                          Keep in mind we are still in the "Discovery" stage of your business development. There are things I look at in this process. I look at all the plausible outward expansion as well as the plausible vertical growth. As you saw above we don't want select a domain name that limits us to Juicy couture watches.

                          So where else can this grow? I happen to know that there are "Juicy Couture watchband bracelets" so looking at "Couture Bracelets" could be a possible vertical move. "Couture watchbands" becomes obvious.

                          So If I was going into this today I would set the LONG TERM goal of getting to the top of the chain "Couture" where you are looking at 57 Million Pages with 33,000 searches per month. My start is going to be the simple little target of "Juicy Couture Watches".

                          As you expand your product line across different micro niches you are expanding your "Authority". You are growing your overall relevance to your goal "Couture" In a period of 2 years you could be playing on the "Couture" platform with the big boys. Before you ask... Yes I have done this ( not with Couture )

                          Think of it this way you are basically building a pyramid from the ground up one piece at a time. As with all business having at least the most basic of plans allows for this type of growth. Understanding where you could and can go is obviously a good thing.

                          Hope that Helps!
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            • Profile picture of the author ronrule
              Originally Posted by lucidzfl View Post

              How do you tell how many searches are done for a keyword. Google's keyword planner has a tool for it, but the numbers seem really low for "avg monthly searches"

              US, All Languages search for "home loan" shows only 6600 searches. That seems impossible.
              Believe it or not I've found the keyword planner to be pretty accurate.

              In your example, consider all external factors: Would you go to Google and type "home loan" ? Probably not. Mortgage-seekers are more likely to search for mortgages, including localized and rate information. The phrase "mortgage rates" is showing 301,000 with the US, All Languages search.

              Also, keep in mind that results are based on a 90 day average; recent reports show that Q4 2013 was one of the worst periods for mortgage applications on record, and December is always lower anyway. So one third of the data you're looking at contains a naturally low period, and the entire data block is in the midst of an historic low.



              Some more info on the Keyword Tool and its accuracy: How Accurate Is The Google Keyword Tool
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  • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
    A lot of smart people chipping in here.. but I'm very surprised that noone is mentioning the actual VALUE you are going to offer your visitors / customers.. A lot to do with the technical machinations of IM, and nothing on the actual content you are going to be creating.

    Even if you want to sell affiliate products or monetize with Adsense - you need to put some SERIOUS hours in, to create compelling content that people give a damn about.

    If you go into a niche, make sure you know a lot about it, and can write about it even if you're not getting paid. Chances are, it will take a while to get the ball rolling.

    If you know nothing of your niche, or you're not bringing something fresh to the table, it's going to be a very frustrating and unprofitable process indeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kate Smith
    Here is my perspective on it:

    Internet marketers are really selling a dream and hope.

    Newbies are looking for hope.

    As a result many sales pages are misleading.

    AND much of the testimonials are misleading as well, because they are still hoping for the dream.

    From a distance it's easy to see, when you are new in this business it is hard to decipher what you are seeing.

    Kate
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  • Profile picture of the author immick
    When you start making money in IM you will be amazed at how fast your perception of "legitimacy of the IM industry" changes!
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  • Profile picture of the author PeckhamPirate
    OK. Back to the origial question.
    It's a forum bud, we are for the most part, solo operators.

    Most times even are friends and families don't get what we do.

    We're here to share ideas and sell each other stuff we've made or written.

    Sounds like you're from a corporate background, where you add your layer to whatever product it was you were selling, before passing it on to the next guy for his contribution.

    Round here we're strictly DIY, we do it all ourselves.

    I don't think I'm unique here, and I think a lot of people do like I do, which is;
    they work in some area of this biz we call IM, and when they develop some new tool, or technique that's making them good dollar, they share it here.

    Me I mostly sell physical products. So if I ever bring an offer to the forum, it's because I know it will work for my fellow members.
    I'm hardly going to pass my e-Book or whatever to the guys in Finance to price for the market, then shoot it over to the design crew to create the packaging then on to marketing to devise my sales pitch.

    I do the lot myself. Like most people here.

    Now it's getting more popular for members of this forum to simply live off (or try to live off) their fellow members, by flogging all manner of dodgy tools promising this and that, or some untried new method of selling more / getting more traffic.
    And these chaps are definitely tending toward the sleazy, so I understand your concern.

    But for the most part we're a very genuine bunch, and it won't take you long to figure out whos who.

    Just excuse our sloppiness in some areas, we do our best.
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    • Profile picture of the author lucidzfl
      Great response and it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your candor and honest answer.
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  • Profile picture of the author CatsPajamas
    IMO and expereince, they are by and large sleazy. Giving you the less for the money that they possibly can, or not at all. PTBarnum - "There's a sucker born every minute." Seems to be the "business strategy for many.

    There are a few out there that are worth patronizing, who are ethical and will do what they say.

    I will be starting a thread asking for "The Good, Bad and Ugly" for companies they have dealt with. Kind of like a short "Angie's List" for the Forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author ftango
    Thanks for making this post. I've been lurking on here for weeks trying to learn IM and I had the same impression you did. The majority of this site revolves around marketers trying to sell marketing products to marketers. There's useful info here for a newbie and I'm used to digging in forums for the few relevant crumbs but this forum is rough.
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    • Profile picture of the author CatsPajamas
      'Struth ... forum is like a gold mine ... ya gotta dig to find the nuggets!
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  • Profile picture of the author ScrooG
    I like your original post as it is definitely the elephant in the room to some extent. There ARE lots of sleaze bag marketers, many frequent this forum, particularly one particular part of the forum, the part where you will see all those big red letters and claims of automatic income and 6 figures a week and all that crpola.

    By the way, the best thing you can possibly do is NOT buy any of those products until you DO figure out a niche and you DO start building your site. Then and only then will it be in your best interest to pick up some tools for your site. (Plug-ins or software that do specific things that you are pretty sure will be valuable or time savers for your site and/or marketing your site.)

    But snake oil salesmen abound in this IM business!

    I've been around this for a couple years but I have a real job so don't have a lot of time to spend here, nor to spend on building sites etc. But I've picked up a lot of information by reading some threads and buying various "how to" products, even if I did not put that knowledge to work. Yet.

    Nevertheless I am an affiliate for a physical product that I built up various sites to drive traffic to, which was making me a very good part time income until recently. (The problem with being an affiliate for a product is that the product manufacturer can change the game on you and totally screw up all your hard work. But that's the subject of another thread. Just be aware that it's very important to have MULTIPLE INCOME STREAMS or else you can find yourself where I am now - my income stream has dwindled because I only had one.)

    Now:
    You want to find the right niche, built a good site around it, promote it, and monetize it.

    There are various ways of monetizing it: Adsense and other ad placement companies; selling a physical product; or selling a digital product. Those are the basic methods for making money with a niche site. Oh, and getting people to sign up for a free product(s) or newsletter which gives you their email addy then you use that to sell them more stuff.

    So you are trying to figure out WHICH niche would be the right one for you.

    Well WELCOME TO NICHE MARKETING!
    You have discovered the door to riches!

    Now you have to find the KEY!

    Keyword tools can help. You can spend hours and hours pouring over keywords, monthly search volumes and so on to figure out what might be a good niche.

    Then you have to look at google search results to see the competition.
    Look at the sites in the top 10 of your niche and figure out what is making them a top 10 site.

    With Google - in spite of their claiming to make the search results more relevant - the fact is a lot of times you will still find GARBAGE sites in the top 10. I found one today that was deleted, had zero content! Go figure! And that's not unusual.

    But what you want to do is find the sites that are there because of the great content they are offering because those are the ones you want to emulate, imho - not the ones who got there due to millions of automated links or other trickery. If you truly want to build a business or businesses in IM you want to emulate those who are doing it right.

    So look at the Top 10 sites' content.
    What are they doing right?
    Generally speaking what I see are that sites that are doing it right are providing VALUE to their visitors. Value in terms of information.

    But here's a clue:
    Just because you find a good niche, provide value, and do good off page and on page seo, does NOT mean you will reach page 1 of Google nor drive lots of traffic to your site.

    If it were that easy most of us on this forum would be making thousands of dollars per month.

    In my view - and admittedly I am NOT an expert, I'm just a guy who's been around a little longer than you and is also trying to find the "RIGHT" niche - success involves this:

    60% - choosing the right niche that is :
    a) something that gets "enough" searches
    b) something you know something about or are very interested in learning
    c) something that will attract visitors who you can SELL something to - whether that means a link to amazon or clickbank, or a physical product, an ebook, or get them to click on ads (this takes quite a bit of traffic in most niches)

    20% - knowledge about how to write converting copy or how to write valuable educational material on the subject they searched for

    15% - knowing how to get traffic to the site - how to write and place ads, how to interact with people in forums on the subject and gently get them to visit your site (no hard selling will work in forums)

    5% SEO and site building

    As I say, I am still trying to figure out how to get more income streams going for myself so am not an expert. But this is my "current theory" on how it works.

    For me the really super HARD thing is figuring out a niche that I am interested in that I can monetize.

    I think that may be easier for some than others.

    For me, it's really strange in a way but I swear, all the niche subjects I am interested in do NOT lend themselves to monetization! (or at least not MUCH monetization) So I am still struggling to figure out a niche that I like that I can actually make money from that also is not super competitive/over-saturated.

    As for keywords, there are a lot of keyword tools and some are very user-unfriendly, some are a real waste of time, some seem to be very unreliable in terms of their results and some are very unreliable in terms of just working. (One in particular is one I used to love but now every time I go to use it, it doesn't work, it just won't interact with Google Keyword Planner.)

    Right now I think the best keyword tool is to simply go to GKP and do the research manually. You can look at various threads on keyword tools though and get some ideas, and try a few. Some have free trials and some are cheap enough to just buy and try.

    All in all I think you are finding the Truth about internet marketing:
    IT IS NOT EASY.
    It takes lots of time to learn, lots of time to find your own path and if you're not careful you can spend thousands of dollars on training, plug-ins and ebooks, and still not find the key to making thousands of dollars a month.

    That said, I do believe that if you set your mind to it and are smart about it and are willing to put a year or two into experimenting and testing and failing, you will eventually find some things that work to make decent money.

    One last thing I want to underline:
    I DO agree with others who have said that you need to do niche sites or an authority site on subjects you are INTERESTED IN, or else it will just bore you and annoy you. In fact that is the problem I am having right now, I need to find such a niche.
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    "Live and let live".

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