Single , Double opt in. Get a clue

31 replies
I have saw several post on which is better single or double opt ins .

One of the stands I see being taken again and again is that single opt ins contribute to more spam complaints .

First clue . It doesn't matter if the new member clicked one link or two to get to your freebie . If your business model consist of sending out a lot of sales pitches with very little content sooner or later the spam button gets clicked .

A lot of people think that they can click the spam button and the emails will quit coming . They think the spam button is a shortcut to the unsub link, although it isn't .

The next point is that a better targeted follower comes from double opt in .

The member was targeted when they decided to click the first link. It is up to you to refine the target and get them on the list that is most likely to get them to the buyers list . This can only happen after you have them in your funnel.

I also saw the " if you use double opt in it builds the relationship"

The relationship process starts with the product that is a result of clicking the link. Every time someone has to jump through another hoop to get to the relationship building process , they get a little more irritated with the person making them jump through the hoops .

With single opt in you can deliver the product via autoresponder . Use the thank you page to educate your new member on what they can expect from you . Let them know the product is on it's way and how they can white list you to assure they get the product . Although I don't use oto this is a perfect time to suggest a product that will enhance the product they will soon be getting .

One argument I have seen about single opt in is that people give a fake address . The above process takes that out of play .

The ultimate goal is always to get the member off of the freebie list and onto the buyers list . Once a freebie list has been run through the funnel process you should really think about deleting it . Face it if you have tried to get the freebie seeker onto a buyers list for the last 9 months, to no avail, there is a problem.

> The freebie seeker is not going to buy from you .

> Your sales procedure sucks

> One that a lot of people overlook . The list member does not have the ability to buy online .

Now if you are only running a list of a couple of thousand people deleting someone seems like a crazy thing to do . If you are having to pay an extra fee for your autoresponder ,because of someone you will never sell to, do you really think it is smart to keep paying for their education ?

To make a long post a little shorter . Single opt ins will get more people in the mouth of your sales funnel. More people in the mouth will produce more sales if your member redirecting skills and sales procedure is any good .

But that is just one list builders take on the situation :-)
#clue #double #opt #single
  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Troy...

    I have a clue... let me share it with you...

    The spam issue arises from the fact that I can go to
    any website and enter any email address I feel like typing.

    If that's where the process stops YOU might start getting
    all kinds of crap in your email box... if I chose to use your
    email address that day.

    Double opt-in obviously requires the owner of that email address
    to confirm that they actually want to receive the aforementioned crap.

    If they then complain to my ISP that I'm spamming them I have the
    proof provided by the double opt-in process to prove that they voluntarily
    requested the crap.

    The point is this... I'm not worried about people complaining to ME that
    they've been spammed. I'm worried that they will complain to my host/ISP
    and my account will be terminated.

    Every wise internet marketer should have the same concern.

    Tsnyder
    Dispenser of Clues
    Free and Worth Every Penny
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      Troy...

      I have a clue... let me share it with you...

      The spam issue arises from the fact that I can go to
      any website and enter any email address I feel like typing.

      If that's where the process stops YOU might start getting
      all kinds of crap in your email box... if I chose to use your
      email address that day.

      Double opt-in obviously requires the owner of that email address
      to confirm that they actually want to receive the aforementioned crap.

      If they then complain to my ISP that I'm spamming them I have the
      proof provided by the double opt-in process to prove that they voluntarily
      requested the crap.

      The point is this... I'm not worried about people complaining to ME that
      they've been spammed. I'm worried that they will complain to my host/ISP
      and my account will be terminated.

      Every wise internet marketer should have the same concern.

      Tsnyder
      Dispenser of Clues
      Free and Worth Every Penny
      If there is an unsub link in the email they can hit the spam button all they want . You are still compliant and the isp will not slap you .

      I have had like three spam complaints in the last year . All were because they thought this would unsub them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        If there is an unsub link in the email they can hit the spam button all they want . You are still compliant and the isp will not slap you .
        That is simply not the case for all ISP's. I'm not willing
        to take that risk in order to get a few more opt-ins.

        Tsnyder
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      • Profile picture of the author InfusionsoftSteve
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        • Profile picture of the author flattop
          Originally Posted by InfusionsoftSteve View Post

          A few items to ponder when considering going to a Confirmed Email model (a.k.a. Double opt-in)
          1. Better deliverability.... FOR FREE!!!
            • essentially fewer spam complaints means better deliverability.
            • Over 90% of the spam complaints received, originate from single opt-in addresses.
          2. Prevents against malicious users entering in falsified information into your database:
            • Competition/disgruntled individuals will maliciously enter a 'Spam-Trap' into your system.
              • Spam-Trap: email address published to various networks for the sole purpose of probing which IP's send Unsolicited Bulk Email (a.k.a. Spam) to the address.
          3. Recent studies show that up to 20% of all web-form submissions are undeliverable immediately:
            • Email Confirmation prevents undeliverable email addresses from entering your database.
            • Undeliverable email addresses damage your email sending reputation which gets you blacklisted with ISP's... (too many invalid/bounced emails)
          4. Establishes a relationship with that client immediately:
            • After a contact confirms their email address, send them a 10% off coupon, or info on a special 'new customer promo', or whatever you see to be fit.
            • That is when they are a hot lead, that is the time to promote your goods.
          5. Last, but certainly not least.... fewer Spam complaints!!!!!!!!!
            • Spam hurts everyone.... employees, customers, users, etc.
            • Excessively high spam complaint rates lead to eventual account termination.
            • In today's email marketing industry, it is a best practice.

          The main reason I hear for NOT going double opt-in....

          Issue: But I'll lose a large portion of my list!?!

          Solution: Yes. You will. But ask yourself this.... Would you rather have a list of 100,000 people (probably 30% of which are no longer valid email addresses anyways who don't even read your emails and are going to report you as spam because they are no longer interested? Or would you rather have a quality list of 10,000 active subscribers, waiting for your next email to contain a special offer or promo?


          STEVE
          I believe in the double opt-in myself, and will continue to use it unless it goes away.. Not likely though.. I believe that the relationship starts way before your opt-in box... as soon as you start dialogue that the subscriber follows is when that starts.

          Troy, I am curious... cuz I am new to the forum, but why did you start this thread? Are you trying to justify using single opt-in to someone?

          To Your Success,
          Clint
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          • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
            Originally Posted by flattop View Post

            I believe in the double opt-in myself, and will continue to use it unless it goes away.. Not likely though.. I believe that the relationship starts way before your opt-in box... as soon as you start dialogue that the subscriber follows is when that starts.

            Troy, I am curious... cuz I am new to the forum, but why did you start this thread? Are you trying to justify using single opt-in to someone?

            To Your Success,
            Clint
            I am trying to educate people in the fact that single opt in works just as well. I know a lot of people will never listen. It might not even fit into their business plan. I just read so much on here that double opt in is the Only way . I want newbies to understand that it is not .

            Check out some of the people who are agreeing . They more than likely have bigger more responsive list than any three that disagree combined .
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        • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
          Originally Posted by InfusionsoftSteve View Post

          A few items to ponder when considering going to a Confirmed Email model (a.k.a. Double opt-in)
          1. Better deliverability.... FOR FREE!!!
            • essentially fewer spam complaints means better deliverability.
            • Over 90% of the spam complaints received, originate from single opt-in addresses.
          2. Prevents against malicious users entering in falsified information into your database:
            • Competition/disgruntled individuals will maliciously enter a 'Spam-Trap' into your system.
              • Spam-Trap: email address published to various networks for the sole purpose of probing which IP's send Unsolicited Bulk Email (a.k.a. Spam) to the address.
          3. Recent studies show that up to 20% of all web-form submissions are undeliverable immediately:
            • Email Confirmation prevents undeliverable email addresses from entering your database.
            • Undeliverable email addresses damage your email sending reputation which gets you blacklisted with ISP's... (too many invalid/bounced emails)
          4. Establishes a relationship with that client immediately:
            • After a contact confirms their email address, send them a 10% off coupon, or info on a special 'new customer promo', or whatever you see to be fit.
            • That is when they are a hot lead, that is the time to promote your goods.
          5. Last, but certainly not least.... fewer Spam complaints!!!!!!!!!
            • Spam hurts everyone.... employees, customers, users, etc.
            • Excessively high spam complaint rates lead to eventual account termination.
            • In today's email marketing industry, it is a best practice.

          The main reason I hear for NOT going double opt-in....

          Issue: But I'll lose a large portion of my list!?!

          Solution: Yes. You will. But ask yourself this.... Would you rather have a list of 100,000 people (probably 30% of which are no longer valid email addresses anyways who don't even read your emails and are going to report you as spam because they are no longer interested? Or would you rather have a quality list of 10,000 active subscribers, waiting for your next email to contain a special offer or promo?


          STEVE
          I would rather have the 100,000. Even if they are 30% I still have 70,000. The way I funnel my single opt ins I won't have 30% inactive .

          My open rate usually hovers around 37% so I still would be getting about 26,000 opens .
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    Solution: Yes. You will. But ask yourself this.... Would you rather have a list of 100,000 people (probably 30% of which are no longer valid email addresses anyways who don't even read your emails and are going to report you as spam because they are no longer interested? Or would you rather have a quality list of 10,000 active subscribers, waiting for your next email to contain a special offer or promo?
    those 10,000 'active subscribers' would still be on the single opt-in list of 100,000.

    I would rather convert 10% of a 100,000 single opt-in list to sales, then 50% of the 10,000 double opt-in list.
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    -Jason

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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      those 10,000 'active subscribers' would still be on the single opt-in list of 100,000.

      I would rather convert 10% of a 100,000 single opt-in list to sales, then 50% of the 10,000 double opt-in list.
      The math is always obvious on its face... what isn't so obvious
      is the method we'll use to determine which of those other 90,000
      will be the one(s) to get our account terminated because their
      idiot friend thought it would be funny to sign them up to our list.

      Tsnyder
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyrus Antas
    Ultimately, what ISP's think is what matters and they pretty much hate single opt-in.

    Tyrus
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan Shaw
    this really depends on your situation; small list; perhaps single opt-in ; when you start building your list maybe then go double opt-in. The more subscribers, the more chance that you will get a spam complaint. You may want to test both.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by traffictipsnow View Post

      this really depends on your situation; small list; perhaps single opt-in ; when you start building your list maybe then go double opt-in. The more subscribers, the more chance that you will get a spam complaint. You may want to test both.
      Okay you have a small list of say 1000. God forbid but somehow you got 10 spam complaints . The acceptable rate is like .03. Your small list just got toasted

      Same situation as above but this list has 50,000. your spam rate would be basically nonexistent .

      If and this is a big if , single opt ins really did create more spam complaints , why would you want to use single opt on the small list
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    I guess I better tell the tens of thousands of people on my single-optin lists that they should quit buying my stuff. They're supposed to be uninterested.

    Additionally, the number one spam complaint I got when running a double-optin list was....the confirmation email!

    Confirmed optin has its place, but I run single optins whenever I can. I get 20-30% more people on my lists and I MAKE MORE MONEY because more people see my offers.

    Notice that certain "gurus" are now running single optin as well...
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  • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
    I just switch from single-opt in to dobule opt-in, even though the daily subscriber decrease a lot. I'm getting a higher response rate and a lower complain rate as well. Of course, click-through rate too.

    On top of that, it's cost lesser for me in aweber
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by WinsonYeung View Post

      I just switch from single-opt in to dobule opt-in, even though the daily subscriber decrease a lot. I'm getting a higher response rate and a lower complain rate as well. Of course, click-through rate too.

      On top of that, it's cost lesser for me in aweber
      It cost less because you are not putting the higher numbers through your funnel .

      If I can get 10,00 more people in my funnel per month it is worth the extra change .
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  • Profile picture of the author Harry Behrens
    Just curious, when you say single opt-in, you're talking about setting up and maintaining your own server/software to handle the list, right? Like, there's no Aweber-equivalent that does single opt-in lists somewhere or anything?

    I ask since I never used anything aside from Aweber (yeah I'm pretty newbie in that respect), and that could be another reason why someone starting out (or even a veteran) would decide to go that route.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by hmbehrens View Post

      Just curious, when you say single opt-in, you're talking about setting up and maintaining your own server/software to handle the list, right? Like, there's no Aweber-equivalent that does single opt-in lists somewhere or anything?

      I ask since I never used anything aside from Aweber (yeah I'm pretty newbie in that respect), and that could be another reason why someone starting out (or even a veteran) would decide to go that route.
      Response 2.0 does single as well as aweber I use them both. I am way too lazy to set up my own database when I get it done for me for around $100 a month.
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  • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
    My understanding is you can use single opt in in aweber, but you have to set it up this way from the start.
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2313
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      The math is always obvious on its face... what isn't so obvious
      is the method we'll use to determine which of those other 90,000
      will be the one(s) to get our account terminated because their
      idiot friend thought it would be funny to sign them up to our list.

      Tsnyder
      I honestly do not think this is actually a serious issue.

      And truth be told, it's going to take more then 1 complaint to get you into problems (at least with aweber) I've heard some people having problems with getresponse, but I use aweber and haven't had problems (my average spam complaint is probably around .3%).


      Originally Posted by Tyrus Antas View Post

      Ultimately, what ISP's think is what matters and they pretty much hate single opt-in.

      Tyrus
      If I was to self-host my autoresponder, then this would probably be serious concern for me. I've had a mail server hacked by spammers, and have first hand experience trying to get my IP off black lists. Not fun at all. Interestingly enough, with over 1 million spams being sent via our mail server in a very short period of time (crashing our server), our ISP did not do anything to us, nor did our registrar (godaddy).

      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Additionally, the number one spam complaint I got when running a double-optin list was....the confirmation email!
      exactly what I experienced as well!
      I think a lot of people who are not exposed to this everyday are a bit confused when they see a confirmation email, and the overall formality of them may make them nervous, etc..

      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Notice that certain "gurus" are now running single optin as well...
      ahhh, so I am not the only one who's noticed this. In my case, I've noticed this with the some of the lists being built with the pre launch videos.

      Originally Posted by hmbehrens View Post

      Just curious, when you say single opt-in, you're talking about setting up and maintaining your own server/software to handle the list, right? Like, there's no Aweber-equivalent that does single opt-in lists somewhere or anything?

      I ask since I never used anything aside from Aweber (yeah I'm pretty newbie in that respect), and that could be another reason why someone starting out (or even a veteran) would decide to go that route.
      I use aweber, and have the option to use either/or, and have started lists as double and later changed them over to single.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harry Behrens
        Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

        I use aweber, and have the option to use either/or, and have started lists as double and later changed them over to single.
        !!!

        You're absolutely right. Ok, that'll teach me to pay more attention to stuff Sorry everybody.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    I'd maybe consider using double opt in if the damn confirmation message didn't land in the spam folder 50% of the time.

    Also, any mathematics about the double opt in list is flawed because you have no idea what the difference would of truly been to the single opt in folks. You can't account for something you don't have.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      I'd maybe consider using double opt in if the damn confirmation message didn't land in the spam folder 50% of the time.

      Also, any mathematics about the double opt in list is flawed because you have no idea what the difference would of truly been to the single opt in folks. You can't account for something you don't have.
      Just as soon as I quit bowing I will say "The Man has spoken"
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Honestly, I think a lot of the people that go on and on about how Double Optin being superior are JUST CRYING SOUR GRAPES. Many of them do not have a choice as with A-weber once you signed up for Double Optin you are stuck with it.

      The notion of double Optin being more effective and efficient in an Overall Internet Marketing Plan than single Optin is absolutely hogwash !!

      You are kidding yourself and leaving potentially massive amounts of money on the table using double optin. Especially when the double confirmation is sent to the Spam Folder or they forget to click on the confirmatiom button.
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      • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
        Originally Posted by discrat View Post

        Honestly, I think a lot of the people that go on and on about how Double Optin being superior are JUST CRYING SOUR GRAPES. Many of them do not have a choice as with A-weber once you signed up for Double Optin you are stuck with it.

        The notion of double Optin being more effective and efficient in an Overall Internet Marketing Plan than single Optin is absolutely hogwash !!

        You are kidding yourself and leaving potentially massive amounts of money on the table using double optin. Especially when the double confirmation is sent to the Spam Folder or they forget to click on the confirmatiom button.
        The aweber deal is not real. Even if you signed up for double it takes all of 5 minutes to set up a single , copy the code and set a new form. I set my first aweber up as double and one of the real deal list builders (on here a lot so I won't mention their name ) informed me that I could click the double opt in icon once and set up a responder that was single .

        I set up a single , imported my followups , copied the code and placed it on my capture page . Might have took me 15 minutes the first time . Look at my profile pic , you can tell i am no freakin rocket scientist .
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        • Profile picture of the author Trader54
          Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

          The aweber deal is not real. Even if you signed up for double it takes all of 5 minutes to set up a single , copy the code and set a new form. I set my first aweber up as double and one of the real deal list builders (on here a lot so I won't mention their name ) informed me that I could click the double opt in icon once and set up a responder that was single .
          Are you saying even if you have switched to double opt-in on aweber you can still switch back to single?

          When I opened my account way back I was going to make one list double opt-in not realizing that once I switched I would not be able to switch back.

          I would still like to be able to build a list using single opt-in.
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          • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
            Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

            Are you saying even if you have switched to double opt-in on aweber you can still switch back to single?

            When I opened my account way back I was going to make one list double opt-in not realizing that once I switched I would not be able to switch back.

            I would still like to be able to build a list using single opt-in.
            I have several single opt in list on aweber but I did do a couple of doubles before I was told I didn't have to.
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            • Profile picture of the author Trader54
              Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

              I have several single opt in list on aweber but I did do a couple of doubles before I was told I didn't have to.
              Did you have to open another account to go single opt-in or how where you able to switch back?
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              • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
                Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

                Did you have to open another account to go single opt-in or how where you able to switch back?
                Same account just when you get to the page that has a double opt in conformation page on it click on the double opt in icon and it will change the new ar to single .
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                • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
                  One of the plus points of double opt-in that has not been discussed often is that for most email providers, if you click the confirmation email, it immediately puts your email address in the subscriber's address book.

                  There, that's a secret.

                  If a subscriber mostly reads emails that only come from people in his address book, he will more likely open your email.

                  Then again, the point of single opt-in is that it is about numbers. I use single opt-in for less targeted traffic sources (although still profitable) but double opt-in for more targeted lists.

                  Fabian
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Pfft...

    Seriously, do some of you folks remember what it's like to be a consumer (outside the MMO market)?

    Different mindset...totally.

    Sign Up => Where's My Stuff? => What's This...Check My Email? =>

    I Need To Confirm My Identity? WTF? => Oh, Forget It...Probably One Of Those Interweb Spammers I've Been Hearing About...

    Horses for courses. No right or wrong answer.

    I'd say, if my livelihood depended on it, I'd probably...deliver more value in my email content.

    Yes, that's a naive answer from a naive man.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    Good luck importing those single optins into another reputable newsletter provider after you get shutdown for excessive complaints.

    Also, from a security standpoint, you're making it very easy for a competitor (or upset customer) to get your newsletter completely shut down by subscribing strangers to your list.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by BlueSquares View Post

      Good luck importing those single optins into another reputable newsletter provider after you get shutdown for excessive complaints.

      Also, from a security standpoint, you're making it very easy for a competitor (or upset customer) to get your newsletter completely shut down by subscribing strangers to your list.
      I have been doing this for over 5 years now and never had a list shut down.

      I also use several different providers and systematically move a member that is responsive to each provider . In example the responsive member will be on a minimum of two list from two providers . Not that I would but I could say screw it I am not using aweber any more and not lose the first responsive member .

      Also there are providers out there that get your emails delivered at around 97% and could care less about anything but the monthly fee. Don't think that any serious list builder doesn't only know about these providers but has a small library of data filled bachups to download to them if needed .

      I just have never come close to needing them .
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