Was Just About To Launch My First WSO When Something Froze Me...

It depends on your INTENT. Remember, in the US and the UK (and other common law countries) INTENT + ACT = crime. If you intended for people to RELY on false info and you knew the info was false, there'd be an issue. As for ETHICS, dial it down a notch. If you knew the info CAN result in people making money but it will be IMPROBABLE due to the fact that you haven't actually made money off that technique, you shouldn't do it. It all boils down to this: WOULD YOU WANT SOMEONE ELSE to do what you're doing to you or anyone you cared about?

I'm just waiting for you to post so I can throw up a link to this thread. Ive taken screen shots too. Go ahead and post your wso, I dare ya ;-)

All kidding aside man. Really??? Try earning for yourself instead of giving people theories you've never made a dime with

I've had many ethics based discussions with vendors who sell products which they know will not work for all of their customers. This is especially true with vendors who distribute self improvement products from weight loss to "how to make money online" blueprints, books or courses. In most cases the vendor knows that the product won't work for a large percentage of their customers due to the knowledge that most people will not take action on the information provided.

Most marketers know this very well, and due to certain regulations, they therefore usually state on the bottom of their sales pages in print:

"MANY FACTORS WILL BE IMPORTANT IN DETERMINING YOUR ACTUAL RESULTS AND NO GUARANTEES ARE MADE THAT YOU WILL ACHIEVE RESULTS SIMILAR TO OURS OR ANYBODY ELSE'S, IN FACT NO GUARANTEES ARE MADE THAT YOU WILL ACHIEVE ANY RESULTS FROM OUR IDEAS AND TECHNIQUES IN OUR MATERIAL."

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with accepting money from people knowing that only a few will take action and succeed. As long as you have put time and effort into creating a product that you believe in, (something that worked for you) and that you know could work for others, if the customer puts in a reasonable amount of time and effort.

There is however something wrong with accepting money from selling a product that you know could never possibly work, (or has never worked for you) or may damage your customer in some way, (black hat tactics against TOS, etc) and or you knowingly hide or lie about significant facts in your sales pitch.

There's a difference.

Didn't expect this many replies so quickly!

Thank you all for your input, it's very much appreciated.

I can't give a proper response right now as it's too late where I live - but yes you are all completely right. I think by posting this thread I already knew I shouldn't and couldn't go through with it but a part of me was sad to 'see my effort go to waste' despite its nature. I'm glad for the kick in the arse to make sure I didn't make that mistake.

Mr Bill, thanks for the response. Yes I am using very presumptive stats - perhaps it varies wildly depending on the product but my common sense (for what that's worth...) told me that a large percentage of those kind of products mustn't work for the majority - or else there wouldn't be so many of them. If it was probable (a 30, 50, 60% chance?) that they worked we would only need to buy 2 or 3 and be able to make our fortunes. That's obviously not the case based on the demand.

They are registered users to a free hosting service. However they are from mostly developing countries. Didn't think that's worth very much.

Lol, thank you for that assurance Jeff

Yeah it's what I needed to hear, C.

I appreciate your comment most, Arnold. Thanks for engaging with the ethical distinction part.

Hmm possibly. I'll look deeper in future. Thank you also, Janice

I'm thinking of the guy who was joking about the screen shot, and while it's valuable to have a discussion about ethics, it might be better for your reputation if you first go to the applicable sub-forum and ask "does anybody have first hand experience with X list building service?". Right now you just have a feeling that something may or may not work, but no data or first hand knowledge. Most things out there do actually work, but under a narrow set of circumstances and conditions. Where you can really add value is find out what those circumstances and conditions are and then let people know in your messages and sales materials. That way you're steering the right people to the right solutions.

Arizor,

Online marketing success, and especially WSOs, is often a matter of credibility, reputation, and your ability to "deliver the goods." If you really want to last in this business, I suggest you guard your reputation and credibility with all seriousness. One lousy product, especially your first one, is not the way you want to kickstart your selling career.


I don't care who you are (unless you're maybe a fertilizer vendor) . . . it is never, under any circumstances, ethical to knowingly sell crap!

Your customers are your most valuable asset and if you treat them wrong they will not only never buy from you again - they will spread the word about how you ripped them off.


You will get varying opinions about almost anything you ask on a forum. What you want to find is advice from marketers that have experience and that are willing to share their thoughts to help you out.

The very best to you,

Steve

Hi mate, first don't worry too much about the whole throwing stats thing. I use the '99.9%' phrase often in discussions not as a fact but as a way of saying I bet a lot of... So I think a few people have got a little too hung up on that (probably MMO/WSO sellers themselves!)

Perhaps it's us Brits!

Anyways, all that rubbish aside, I think you're certainly right to question the ethical side of things and I think posing the question 'would you be happy if you bought it?' is the best way to deal with this situation.

So if I've understand you correctly, you want to monetize the 1,000 users on your free hosting? Then why not offer them a LEGITIMATE SEO service instead of link packages?

When someone says to me 99.9% I tend to not take it as a pure fact but as a phrase used to say quite a lot of.

I know where you're coming from but when I first read Arizor's post I didn't read it as meaning that he's bought 100 WSOs and 99 of them were rubbish. I read it that he assumed the majority of products with outrageous claims don't live up to expectation.

But I know some people get a bit hung up on %s when they're used in this fashion.

Exactly my point. The OP is suggesting (and others are allowing that belief to become a part of their reality) that almost every single WSO is junk. That's why it needed correcting and addressing. It's clearly not the case - not even remotely true and the perpetuation of that incorrect myth needs stopping at every opportunity. If good people just let is slide then the situation becomes worse.

Well I was teasing.

But I do disagree that most WSOs are crap. I have also bought some doozies but that is the minority for me.

It is buyer beware in there but if you have an idea of what your needs are you can find good WSOs by looking at the features and feedback.

But I have seen some that, while not actually fraudulent, are so poor you shake your head and think, "This is why everyone thinks WSOs are crap".

I know...and I agree it is a problem that needs cleaning but it's more a case of a few bad apples spoiling the cart rather that 99.9% of Apples WILL KILL YOU!

Congratulations on having a conscience that you are actually using - we all have one but many ignore those feelings of guilt or disconnect.

Many things don't work for many people. That includes MMO systems, weight loss systems, the Bible (how many fully live by its teachings about loving their neighbor or controlling lust for example), and traditional education.

However in most cases it isn't a matter of the thing not working or being bad but the person not working or sticking to what they start or properly following instructions. It's a mindset issue, a confidence issue, a fear issue, a laziness issue, an apathy issue. If John's affiliate course works for some people but not all 100 that bought it's likely one of these mindset type issues being the problem instead of John's course being a scam.

Would you sell it to your parents that were retired but desperately needed some extra income? Would you teach your children that this is a good thing to do? Would you be proud if all your friends, family, and fellow local citizens knew you were selling this?

While some people who have ignored their conscience so long that it doesn't work right anymore may say yes to a shady scheme, most decent folk want to sell something they are proud of and wouldn't be embarrassed if their friends, family, and the local police knew about it.

Having said all that, don't give up on your dreams. What else can you sell? What are your legitimate talents, skills, or knowledge that you can share with others? The great majority of us have something of value that we can share if we think out of the box and our comfort zone.

Mark

You, my friend, need to drop everything you are doing...

And get your hands on Secrets Of The Millionaire Mind by T Harv Eker as soon as possible.

You probably don't realize this...

But your beliefs about money are significantly holding you back from what you want to accomplish.

You've posted quite a few disempowering beliefs about money that you should probably change.

I wouldn't do it. If you know it wouldn't benefit them, then why do it. Sure you'll be getting a short term sale but how many business actually stick around based on short term sales? Like someone said earlier, if you can't stand behind your product and be proud, then why even bother?

"Buyer beware" is for others to say about your product.

If you have to say "buyer beware" about your own product trash it and create something you can sell with your head held high.

George Wright

I'm gonna skip over all the bickering about stats and WSOs, and just pipe in to say that I will not promote weight loss pills if I don't believe in them. If I would've found success with them, then yes. (I've never tried and don't intend to.) As you said, they are highly suspect.

OP, is there a different way you can monetize your site? A list? Affiliate links?

And, good for you for sticking up for what you know is right!

You know, one of the 'fears' that many marketers have is selling stuff! Being a sales person. If you really don't have belief in the product you are selling then it becomes difficult to write genuine sales copy. You probably end up going into hype mode!
The fact that you even wrote this post is proof that you want your integrity and reputation to stay intact. I respect you for that and so will others.
One of the reasons why creating your own products appeals is because you know if that product will achieve results and change someones life for the better or not - because you created it! You believe in it. Then it becomes easier to sell.

I think you already knew the answers before you even posted. Don't sell anything that you don't believe in 100%... but you are so full of opinions of what does and doesn't work you may be unteachable.

Case in point... Many Diet Pills... like Red Raspberry Diet Pills are bogus but I've lost weight when dieting and exercising while using a diet pill as a strategy to curb my appetite because the fibre in this particular diet pill expands to 50 times it's original volume when it dissolves in ones stomach... thus helping to suppress hunger making it a bit easier to stick to your diet.

Many people say that diets don't work... well that's like saying 99.9% of WSOs don't work. The bitter truth is diets (eating less & exercising more) work but people don't don't stick to their diet and they choose to put things into their mouths that they know will make them fat and unhealthy

Now there are some really bad WSOs being put out by newbee's who took the advice of a guru by creating a product for the sake of selling it rather than a WSO written by someone who was able to create real specific results and because it worked for them they know it will work for others to, if they do the work.

If there was ever a sure thing it would have to be that Everyone Wants To Be Skinny and Look Good but all of the con artists and snake oil people take advantage of that fact by selling stuff that they themselves got no results from.

The WSO you were considering.... Why or How will the buyers of it benefit from it? What kind of results can you promise them... if they do the work?

Thank you all for the breadth of opinion and advice I have read all your comments but won't be able to craft any meaningful response until tomorrow (if I even should).

Happy valentines!

Interesting topic. Wish it would pop up more often. What's ethical? Hmmm. Maybe this is a good example.

There's a lot of debate about the law of attraction or LOA. I'm not going to go into what it is or what it's supposed to be but it boils down to this: you manifest your dominant thoughts.

I believe that's true. But bop over to the Mind Warriors section here and you'll find people bashing the living snot out of LOA. They'll tell you The Secret is a big scam designed to bilk suckers and a lot more.

Would I promote LOA products? Yep. I would. I believe in it wholeheartedly. Would I promote it if I didn't believe it simply because there are lots of buyers wanting that info? NO WAY.

I would't promote tobacco products either. And I believe people should do whatever they want with their bodies and that the choices they make are their own responsibility. Tobacco is legal and if people want it they should be able to have it. Simple. So why won't I promote it?

Because I want to be involved with stuff that adds life not takes it away. I don't judge people for their choices but I refuse to participate in something I know isn't good. And what makes something good or not good is ultimately up to me. It's a personal decision. Simple.

In other words, if something goes against your grain you should avoid it regardless of any other factors. Personally, I don't think people can be successful in the long run selling something they don't believe in.

@Alex - your signature says it all: PLR+Adsense. You really need to do a research.

If anyone's WSO is a goldmine they will not sell it for $5/$7. Go figure why??

It's actually very simple: If you do something that is not in line with your personal values you are screwed.

That means if you know that what you sell is bad and hurts more than it helps then you should not do it.

Here is the reason:

You have probably seen people that seem to have lost it all: homeless people or bums.

If you care to talk to one of them you will find out that it all started with them losing their self respect.

Now, you lose your self respect if you knowingly do something that violates your integrity.

You know when something is right and you know if something is wrong. A good test: Can you openly tell your father, your mother your uncle, your neighbor, your school teacher (whoever have good values in your opinion and is a good example for you) what you want to do?

If something passes that test it's most likely fine.

Another test: do you feel you need to ask somebody whether it is right or wrong. The answer is: if you have to question whether it is right or wrong it is most likely already wrong.

You know what is right and what is wrong.

Well if that was me, I would keep my integrity first! What really struck out for me in this thread is when you said? I don't really believe the pills will work for the vast majority of people but they still are clamouring to get their hands on some. If your gut is telling you no, and your thinking you don't believe in a product to promote. You REALLY should listen to your gut and move on to other products you 100% believe in and with your name behind.

This may be slightly off topic but it does have to do with quality.

In a sea of garbage, poor quality will stand out. High quality will be like a blinding light.

Just imagine the competition if 99.9% of MMO products were high quality.

Always like to look yourself in the mirror.

Before making a major decision, imagine yourself
several years down the road past the major decision.
Which path would make you proud of yourself and
have less regret.

Dan

Here are my 2 cents.

first, i have run many online businesses for the better part of 2 decades now. I have also never been in the MMO niche at all. Although i have contemplated it many many times....even to this day...lol

I have stayed out of it (except for high level/high pay consulting) simply because of the "selling the dream" factor. That is what sells (to the masses) in industries like weight loss or MMO. Its part of what helps keep the niches "evergreen"...no one has a solution that fixes the problem with any reliable degree of success.

I have no idea what the real failure numbers are for people who try to make a living online, but I am sure we can all agree its very very high. To me, i refuse (for ethical reasons) to "sell the dream" when i am really just selling information or tools.

Can you imagine a sales letter that says "this system will probably only work to any meaningful degree for 10% of the people who buy this package because many of you simply lack all the things it takes to be successful"...(sales letter FAIL)

I have done some stuff in the weight loss niche, which is somewhat similar in many ways...from an ethical perspective. however, I have never marketed magic pills or any of that stuff. I promote workout videos, equipment, nutritional education stuff. The truth is, i am 100% certain i could increase my income if i were to start pushing magic button pills to my lists...but that just aint me.

I think this is just one of those area where each person needs to find their comfort zone. There will always be people willing to be less ethical and some that will hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than you hold yourself to. You just gotta find your comfort zone.

Life lesson: If you are laying in bed wondering to yourself if its ethical for you to do something...then for you, its probably not.

NEVER sell something that doesn't work.

For me, I can't sell something knowing that whoever is interested in buying it and believes it, is not getting any benefit from it. Such as WSO's. Most are hyped shitty $10 products. I'll sell a WSO if what I wrote actually does something.

Understand this OP, never sell something under your name and contact information on a product if you know it doesn't work and you are just doing it for the cash. Or you can sell a product that actually does some good, and build up your reputation.

Overall, I wouldn't sell something where someone would receive a negative benefit from buying it.

If you have integrity, your situation shouldn't even be a dilemma. Just cancel the whole thing off instead of selling crap.

Arizor -
You are young enough to do things the right way. Don't get caught up in the snake oil industry that many here are involved with. They will sugarcoat it all day long, but it's still snake oil.

Well, usually bulk backlinks hurt very much the site they are directed at. I know this from my own experience. I guess your backlinks might still have some value if directed at the backlinks of the users site, not at the site directly.

First tier backlinks should always be quality links, preferably made manually.

A marketer with a conscience...a rare breed. lol!

Keep it up.

Before I decide to sell any product online I always put myself in the buyers situation. Would it truly benefit me? Is it of value? Does it do what it says on the label. Would I happily pay the price and be totally satisfied with the product. If not then I don't sell it.

Reputation is everything in this business. Lose credibility and your business is sunk.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. You need to build a relationship with your buyers. It's not a one-shot deal, at least it shouldn't be when done right. When your buyers get to know you, know you always provide great value and are an honest marketer then they will quite happily buy your recommendations.

Send them to a junk product and they will never trust you again. Vet everything.

Building that relationship takes time but it pays off in the end. Think long term not short gains. You're young, you are in this for a long time so start off on the right footing. Good luck!

Well lots of these following paragraphs may be badly formed/plain nonsense or get me into even more trouble but thought I should do a round-up post anyway.

Apart from one intriguing response that I should follow my goal at all costs, the majority of responses in this thread have all basically been: "the status quo is fine. Let's all keep doing what we do. Our current standards are sufficient."

The question is: what are the responsibilities of the seller?
A massive part of being successful is that the sales copy is always optimised to bring in as many buyers as possible. If you realise and acknowledge your product will only work for eg "10%" then maybe we all have a responsibility to state exactly that (if of course, your goal is to be as ethical as possible and NOT JUST to make as money as possible - and I'm certain I don't have to remind you to challenge me at any point on this). Seek to fully inform the customer.

I'm honestly anxious about the backlash this paragraph might get but here goes. Sometimes it feels like customers are just cattle being fed through a system. 'Optimise' your sales copy as much as possible, optimise your landing page as much as possible, and optimise everything that will mean you have more people clicking their mouse where you want them to click it. This is perhaps an inevitability of online business. The benefit is that you have 1000s of potential customers, but who couldn't possibly be imagined except as a number.

A lot of the time I feel a product can be let down by its delivery, support, layout, communication, and a multitude of other factors. Teaching someone any skill is a very complex task and because of this industry's nature, everyone has an opportunity to teach their little sliver of knowledge. But I definitely feel this fragmented approach is to the detriment of many novices. There are some more 'wholistic' courses out there but even so I think regular 1-1 coaching, and/or a small and driven community are necessary to ensure high success rates.

Going deeper, OK sure it may not be the product that is at fault and more an individual's work ethic/mindset that is the cause of failiure. Well what about the seller on that point? Perhaps we have a responsibility to provide coaching, or any resource that you can be reasonably sure will actually, physically provide the customer with the benefits you advertise. If mindset and work ethic is a big factor then to hell with the quality of the product - you need to teach those basics first, as part of the course, or some sort of gating so that people don't come to the Quantum Entanglement Theory class before they've completed fundamental maths.

That is what I feel it boils down to. Perhaps a significant proportion of [WSOs or any product] ARE actually useful and CAN live up to their claims. However you need to have the right tools and experience and knowledge to understand them and implement them. The first (sustainable) dollar is so much harder than the following million.

It is difficult because there's a Catch 22. Most of the comments here have been from experienced and successful marketers (judging only by post count). I as a newbie have a very different perspective than an experienced marketer and you can only tell me [WSOs] are fine because you have the experience to make them work. I obviously cannot get the perspective of a novice on questions like these because they are experience-based. Although it was interesting to hear several people saying they think [WSOs] ARE actually mostly rubbish.

I am thankful to the commenters who interpreted my 'statistic' and explained it better than I could have, and to those who managed to ignore it and give their advice. I have never actually seen any studies done on the success rate of new internet marketers. I would love to see some. I think it would be excellent if WSO Pro and Jvzoo and whoever else installed a survey into their purchasing system that asked a very simple question after X days having purchased: Did you make any money using this course? Although, a whole slew of other questions would be necessary to truly ascertain the reasons behind the answer, but that single question would be one very raw piece of intriguing data.

I don't think this ethical debate is cut and dry. If I had not posted this thread and gone ahead with the launch, it would've been yet another ineffective product tossed into the hurricane. Nobody would've batted an eyelid. I can certainly see both sides of the argument, but that is because I don't agree with absolutist morals.

In the end you are your only true judge. Having said that, I do agree that if you're in it for the long run - your reputation will be worth more to you than the bucks you may've gained via 'unethical' means.

Earlier I was intimidated by the first few replies I was getting in this thread. Then I gradually saw the spread of opinion and some less intense answers surfaced (but don't get me wrong I appreciate everyone's reply). I fear I may've poked the hornets nest again but oh well

Interesting discussions have been had I think! Thanks once again for engaging with me.

I have to say I do agree with a lot of what you've said mate BUT, it comes down to the vendor. Just because a vendor has obsessed with conversions and the numbers (which you should be as a vendor) does not mean the product is rubbish nor the support.

Optimising your landing page also doesn't HAVE TO involve lying/stretching the truth/using the best case scenario. Yes, in the MMO scene it's common practice to use high earnings to sell... But think outside this niche and the way people sell. They will use similiar sales tactics to pull in as many sales as possible AND deliver a high quality product on the end of it.