One-Line wonders, and other digital cockroaches...

130 replies
We go through cycles here, just like every other forum. Ours has traditionally involved the need for occasional fumigation, to get rid of the one-line wonders and other virtual vermin.

In the past, it was the job of the moderators to handle this when it came up. As time has gone on, the cycles have grown shorter, because the number of new people coming in each month has grown. It's now reached the point where we need bug hunters in-house pretty much all the time.

That would be you.

Here's the thing: Most of these pests don't know they're destructive. That's why they sound so sincere when they complain about their posts getting deleted. I'm pretty sure that rats, mice and roaches would feel like they were being badly treated by the exterminator, too.

They would no doubt be quite sincere in their pleas. It could be easy to feel like they had a valid point.

No mercy.

If you let them breed, they'll make your house unlivable.

The most common of these lately is the One-Line Wonder. They start up an account and race to 30 posts, most of them irrelevant, and nearly all one or two lines in length. As soon as they hit the Magic Number, they post a WSO. Shortly after that, they disappear. At least under that username...

For them, the rules about posting limits are either unfair or some kind of stupid inconvenience, put in place to keep the Little Guy from making "easy money." The idea of what a WSO is supposed to be doesn't make sense to them. "Participation? Exchange of ideas? Being part of the group, and then giving something back? What's that got to do with making money? That's too much work!"

Don't bother trying to educate them. That's about as productive as trying to teach a leech. They have one thought in mind: "Feed me!"

Very few of them are "evil," although some really are. If you doubt that last part, you should visit some of the other forums in this niche and read the things that are said about running a WSO to get some quick cash from the newbies. Which is a whole other reason for making regular participation a requirement...

Most of the one-line wonders are okay people who are just focused on that one thing: Get the money. They usually sell crap, thinking it's gold, and always fill up the board with time- and resource-wasting nonsense. Doesn't matter what their intentions are, they need to be removed.

If you see posts that say things like, "Great post. Thanks for the share," or "Thanks. That's really great info," and the poster has a low post count, look at their profile and check their other comments. If they have a lot of one or two line posts that seem rushed, use the report post button. (The red triangle with the black exclamation point, at the lower left of each post.)

If the folks who complain about the WSO forum want to do something useful to clean up the stupid stuff there, that's an excellent place to start. Then there's...

The Regurgitator: This is the person who comes in after reading a couple of books and thinks s/he's a marketing genius. They spout cliches as absolutes, opinion as fact, and generally run off at the keyboard without having the first hint of a whiff of a sniff of clue, and expect their comments to be taken as Gospel.

The answer to them is to call them on their BS. Ask them if they've actually tested it, or if this is just their opinion. If they say, "It's obvious," or "That's how I feel, so there must be a lot of others who feel the same way," they're just spouting. Calling them on their fantasies helps to keep others from being misled.

A (usually) less obvious bit of vermin is the Ghost Poster. These are people who are paid to work an account up to the requisite 30 posts for commenting in the WSO section. These are sneakier, since what they normally are meant for is posting positive comments or giving testimonials in response to a WSO. Because of that, their comments have a slightly different, somewhat friendlier, tone.

A frequent clue to these is a common name in a major American, Canadian or British city, with posts written in English that's broken in ways that are more like those typical of Malaysia or the Phillipines. That's hardly universal, though. Some ghost posters are knowledgeable of the industry and speak English well, as a first language. Those are the toughies.

If you see something you suspect to be a set-up, don't flag it. Report it using the help desk. There are ways of recognizing those activities that the folks with access behind the curtain can see more clearly than the usual visitor.

There's a lot more of this going on than you might think. The problem is that it's often indistinguishable from legit comments from people who just don't post often. That's why you should report it, rather than flagging the posts with the "Report Post" button.

My personal opinion: Anyone caught "ghost posting" here should be permanently banned. The only person who has any business hiring someone to post here (Allen) has no need to do so.

If it were up to me, anyone using ghost posters to manipulate the WSO forum would be outed in both that section and the main forum, and reported to whoever might have authority over them for fraud. (Yes, this fits the legal definition of fraud. It's a crime.)

Then there's everyone's favorite - The Troll. These are people (and I employ the term here quite loosely) who use various techniques to draw others into arguments or pointless debates.

The term comes from the fishing technique by the same name, which involves pulling bait or a lure on a line behind a boat, hoping the fish won't see that it's a trap and will hook themselves.

Trolls can sometimes be subtle, and seem like the usual confused person expressing an opinion. They can sometimes be obvious, such as the ones asking for advice and refusing to acknowledge or consider what's offered. And they can sometimes just come out with it, posting outrageous nonsense that's guaranteed to start an argument if anyone takes them seriously.

If you suspect you're dealing with a troll, either flag their posts or, if there's a senior person involved who's engaging them after stating what they are, pop some popcorn and enjoy the show. A few of the more experienced people here will often carry on the discussion in order to let the less experienced become more familiar with the mindset of trolls.

Trolls are sneaky, cowardly creatures. They like to start trouble and then sit back and watch as others argue. If you call them on their games, they may respond by stating some seemingly harmless reason for their comments. They most commonly throw a tantrum or start to devolve into even lower life forms, right before your eyes.

Some will switch gears, and claim to be engaged in "performance art." Those people should be laughed out of the place, as they deserve.

Unless you're really experienced in dealing with them, your best bet is to flag their posts, and explain it with the phrase, "Looks like a troll." The mods can usually recognize the species pretty well. If they can't tell for sure, it's probably not a thread that needs to be left anyway.

Don't confuse trolling with outright racism or other hate speech. There's a name for animals who post that sort of thing on public forums, but it's not suitable for use here. The best use for such creatures is hauling large piles of heavy rocks from here to there and back to here again - ad nauseum.

Or as archery targets, if you don't have any large piles of rocks for them to move around.

There are a couple of categories of posters who aren't strictly vermin, or even bad people in any way, but who should nonetheless be reported for removal.

The first are folks whose grasp of English is so bad that their posts are incomprehensible. I don't mean, "their grammar is off." I mean people who simply can't be understood at all.

Yes, they speak English better than I speak their language, which is to say, "Not even a little." However, since English is the default language here, and must be for the moderators to keep various forms of nastiness out, that's what we've got. A lot of posts that add nothing but confusion are as unhelpful as those which have less honest motives driving them.

These folks aren't to be seen as bad in any way, but we really shouldn't keep their posts until they learn the language well enough to at least be understood with a little effort.

Yes, that sucks, and yes, it seems somehow unfair. Still, if they can't make themselves understood, they're not going to gain anything by active participation here anyway. All they're going to do is confuse the hell out of well-meaning people who try to translate what can't be translated.

Don't abuse them, but flag them.

The second are the folks who post nothing but negatives. I don't mean, "sometimes skeptical or argumentative." Those can be very useful. I'm talking about people who post complaints with no search for answers, no point that can help anyone else, and just to vent.

What, exactly, is helped by someone posting, "I'm depressed, it's so unfair, my life sucks!?" Or worse, "I hate it! This takes sooo muuuuch woooooork!"

Flag 'em. Especially that last one.

Oh yeah... Any time you see someone use the expression, "Thanks for the share," (in those exact words), you want to be careful in dealing with them. That is not conclusive proof, but it tends to indicate that they've hung around on pirate boards, where that phrase gets used a lot.

If you see that used by a One-Line Wonder, you can safely bet that they've got something sneaky planned.

Before you ask, no. Telling you rhis isn't going to help the creeps. If everyone who's signed up right now read it, which is simply not going to happen, it wouldn't affect anything for long. First, there are other signs that people with the experience to be moderators here will recognize. And, after a week at most, there'll be a whole new crop of them, doing the same things as they pass through with their scams. The folks who plan to be here for a while will be the ones who remember, and a few of you will be better equipped to help deal with them down the road.

The scammers and creeps run on short term approaches. The serious members go in longer phases, and tend to teach other serious members. Understanding that and taking advantage of it is how the place keeps some semblance of sanity, and gets better over time.

Like I said: Cycles.


Paul
#cockroaches #digital #oneline #wonders
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Coverdale
    This is true. good information.








    Sorry Paul. Couldn't help myself. :p
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mark,
      This is true. good information.
      And good entertainment. Specifically, http://www.ThisIsTrue.com ...
      Sorry Paul. Couldn't help myself.
      Somebody was gonna do it. Just as well to get it out of the way early.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Coverdale
        In all seriousness Paul, I do think we would be fighting a losing battle when dealing with a crowd that is fueled by greed.

        Greed is a very strong motivator and when these creeps see a few dollar signs, they start frothing at the mouth. Then the relentless pursuit of the newbie customer takes over.

        It's easy money, if only for a very short time.

        They don't understand that helping people find a solution to a problem and really getting the whole marketing thing can create a life long business with lifelong relationships. The whole internet thing makes the anonimity of it too easy. Collect the dollars, walk away, never to see the face of the person you just ripped off.

        Schemers, out to ruin the online experience for as many as they can.

        So sad........., but it all comes back to greed.

        Get in there, get there WSO out. Leave.
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      • Profile picture of the author xiaophil
        They most commonly throw a tantrum or start to devolve into even lower life forms, right before your eyes.
        I witnessed my first one of these on a recent thread which started with a seemingly innocent enough call for some help with converting sales.

        They obviously were not interested in the feedback anyone had to offer.

        This particular troll had a few people drawn in, myself included, before being outed by Paul. After that it was downright disturbing how rapidly and the level to which their tone descended - complete with insults, hate speech and even death threats.

        Very, very nasty and the quicker such entities are filtered out the better.


        Phil
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mark,

          If you think it's a losing battle, that's only because you haven't been at it as long as some. You never win it completely, even with a totally closed system. Still, you can win enough of it to keep things useful and productive and fun.

          Consider: This same stuff has been going on here, and some worse, for more than 10 years. Despite that, the place is better than ever.

          Phil,

          There are few life forms capable of posting in a forum that are lower than the fellow you're talking about.

          That thread was ugly, but instructional. It let people see the creature live, rather than just reading about it. And it gave me enough ammo to go to his ISP and get some action taken.

          Another round or so of that and he'll have the police at his door. I could care less about death threats from some anonymous college punk hiding behind a monitor, but the racism and other hate speech he was posting under various usernames isn't something that has ever been tolerated here.

          He's obsessive. He'll be back. That's what his kind does. And he'll give me enough to get him arrested, because he can't help himself.

          They all think they're somehow unique and special. They're really all the same. I've seen a LOT of that kind of person over the past 22 years, and they never vary in any way that counts.

          Psychopathic sheep, mindlessly following the same patterns of anger and ego.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Oscar,

            I don't worry about the friend requests much. If you ignore them, they don't get any access. Simple, and there aren't enough to keep the place from being useful. Hell, thousands of those a day wouldn't interfere with any function I bother with.

            I can see where it could get annoying, though.

            David,

            That's just a sign that you focus on the positive. That's what you remember from the mix that's always been here.

            Congratulations, sir. You've learned something useful today.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Paul, excellent bit of advice but I need to make a minor correction that
              will save people a little time and trouble if I may.

              You can no longer post to the WSO forum unless you already have a
              specific number of posts. I'm not sure what it is. I think it's 15 or 30. You'll
              have to check with Allen on that.

              Point is, people can't run up their post counts any longer by posting
              meaningless nonsense in the WSO forum.

              Allen has done an excellent job of putting little safeguards in place
              (minimum post counts, time limits on PMs) that have really helped a lot. At
              least in my opinion anyway.

              Anyway, as always you're constantly thinking about the welfare of this
              forum and we all appreciate it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Steven,
                You can no longer post to the WSO forum unless you already have a specific number of posts. I'm not sure what it is. I think it's 15 or 30.
                Ummm.... 30. That's what I said.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi Paul,

                  I can't be sure, but it would appear from my observations that one of the greatest changes to the dynamics here is that with the new forum software, it seems that more new people are arriving here via the SERPs - IE - the forum is functioning even better from an SEO point of view.

                  They see a thread that relates to a specific issue/website, and sign up to leave a comment. This appears to be very apparent in the 'review' section.

                  I reckon that overall this means that the forum is being found by a much broader group of 'newbie' - so I would also conclude that this is the demographic that has grown the most in recent times. I believe this presents some new challenges, but of course, it also provides many positive benefits for those who sell via their forum participation - again, this in turn presents new challenges, as the desire to capitalise, and the ROI on the various ways of selling here grows.

                  Yet another issue (which you touched upon) is that with an influx of new people that is apparent to anyone who has been here a while, it is easier for those with bad intentions (particularly those with multiple forum personality disorder) to avoid being spotted.

                  Would you agree?
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                  Roger Davis

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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Steven,Ummm.... 30. That's what I said.


                  Paul
                  Sorry, I must have missed that. Not at my best these days with recent
                  events that I won't go into here

                  Anyway, thanks again for watching out for us.

                  ** EDIT ** Oh, okay. I reread that section again and I totally
                  misunderstood it.

                  I thought you meant that they were trying to build up their
                  post count in the WSO section. But obviously that makes
                  no sense at all since you can't post there unless you have
                  the required number of posts.

                  :sigh: Getting my head back on straight is going to be harder
                  than I thought.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Roger,

                    I don't know if the SERPS play any role in the problem part of things, as the folks who know enough to create the problems come in here with that knowledge. They know exactly how many posts they need in order to get access to the WSO section. Most of them seem to be coming from two other forums and from "recommendations" by experienced folk.

                    Your observations regarding the other challenges and opportunities are dead on. They seem to be countered to some extent by the folks who game the system, though, so I'm not sure there's an overall positive increase. Hard to tell without access to data that may not even exist.

                    I tend to think the "spotting" of folks with MFPD is still done mostly by the experienced members. It's actually a bit harder with all the new folks acting as cover, albeit purely unintentionally.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                      Hi Paul,

                      The problem I see due to the SERPs is that it has changed the dynamics. This appears to have -

                      a) (as mentioned above) provided 'cover' for those with bad intentions. There was a much more familiar/reliable posting style/sequence of events occuring daily across the board, previously. With new 'styles', it makes it much harder to be sure of bad behaviour, which makes it less likely that 'call-outs' and reports will occur.

                      b) many people with good track records of altruistic moderating behaviour have noticeably disappeared or come here less (I have taken breaks recently too). Some of the reasons highlighted revolve around -

                      1) a) above

                      2) generally overwhelmed

                      3) after spending time helping in a thread, the OP turns out to be fake, had bad intentions or disappears

                      4) quantity of (ahem) uneducated/unhelpful contributions (as mentioned in 'regurgitator' in your OP) drown out responsible posters and make them feel their contribution is a waste of time. Often caused by 'sig exposers'.

                      c) as would be expected, a certain kind of familiarity (as relates to community) has been diluted - I reckon a lot of people are uncomfortable with this (as can be seen in various comments in posts from old timers.)

                      I hope no-one takes these points the wrong way - as a negative whine. I have read the comments you have made about cycles and accepting change and appreciate and agree with them.

                      But I do see a problem in that if someone writes quality thought out posts - that takes time. Due to the nature of the opposite kind of posting, it doesn't take as much time - therefore the quantity can be overwhelming and cause the problem mentioned in 4) above.

                      For example, yesterday I called out someone who posted a copy/paste of an article already posted to a warrior blog months ago, as a new thread. The article was also all over the net, in pdfs etc. And it wasn't particularly high quality.

                      I stated it as 'appearing to have been plaguarised.' I then got embroiled in a pointless discussion with a 3rd party, because the OP of the copy/paste thread was a business partner with the person who posted it months ago on a warrior blog. I had to wheel out the old cliches about the forum becoming an article directory if everyone did the same, but to no avail - the 3rd party wanted to debate whether it really was plaguarism due to them being partners.

                      Sigh.

                      They totally missed the point, which was that it's not that difficult to make useful, interesting posts to promote yourself/business - but it takes longer than plaguarising. If copy/pastes of old crap are allowed to stay, they set a precedent, and also make the whole place crap if they are allowed to 'breed' - because it's so quick and easy to copy/paste tons of articles that you haven't written yourself.

                      My point - I spent more time trying to explain my actions to a 3rd party, than I did detecting and calling out a copy/paster. And this type of thing is a common occurence, which eventually leads to a sense of 'moderator apathy'. Plus, once I had explained myself in detail, it hampers the urge to report the post and get it deleted because after going to lengths to explain the problem, I wanted others to see it.

                      This is something that appears to be particularly prevalent since the latter period after the forum change, as the 'armies' of people who will argue with someone trying to 'put things right', appear to have grown. Just after the forum change when we all became moderators, it didn't seem so bad. And there were more oldies on hand to call out things that needed calling out.

                      For clarity -

                      I don't know if the SERPS play any role in the problem part of things, as the folks who know enough to create the problems come in here with that knowledge.
                      I'm not saying the changes due to higher exposure through SERPs are necessarily bringing more miscreants. I'm saying that it makes it harder for ordinary forum users who bother to moderate to stay on top of things AND to go about their normal forum activities (which may have driven some away).
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                      Roger Davis

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    • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
      Thanks for the ....., Paul!

      To be serious; This was a good guide on different behaviors and how to handle them.

      One group you didn't spesifically mention are those that, in addition to posting a lot of posts with an average of 5-6 minutes between them, almost seem to go by the alphabet, sending out hundreds of friendship requests.

      When I get a request from someone behaving like that I don't want to accept it. I see many others seem to be less critical about it than me though.
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      Oscar Toft

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Buckley
        Originally Posted by JazzOscar View Post

        Thanks for the ....., Paul!

        One group you didn't spesifically mention are those that, in addition to posting a lot of posts with an average of 5-6 minutes between them, almost seem to go by the alphabet, sending out hundreds of friendship requests.

        When I get a request from someone behaving like that I don't want to accept it. I see many others seem to be less critical about it than me though.
        Funny you should mention this one. I just rejected a friend request from a Romanian "warrior" who had 10 total posts and 747 friends
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        "Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something." -Plato

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  • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
    Hey guys...

    This is very timely Paul, I've noticed
    a lot of this stuff over the past week
    or so, thought it was just me.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one.

    I guess it's just something we have to
    deal with as the forum membership gets
    ever larger...

    Sometimes I yearn for warrior forum I joined
    3 years ago, where the main theme was
    positivity and encouragement.

    It doesn't seem that way any more, but I'm
    unsure whether it's actually me or the forum
    that's changed...

    Any psychologists in the house?

    -David Raybould
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    Killer Emails. Cash-spewing VSLs. Turbocharged Landing Pages.

    Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
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  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    Paul,

    This list is absolutely necessary. I'm one who is usually very naive about the true intentions of people. Even though I've been around for a little while now, the fact that there are "ghost posters" and other slime still surprises me -- though it shouldn't by now.

    You mean everyone is not honest and upright?

    I've been very lucky that the people I've dealt with on the Warrior Forum have been great to me, and I've made some good friends. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean my luck will always be this good -- especially as I examine my friend list, and some friend requests, and realize that I have no idea who some of these faceless, nameless people are.

    As great as the WF is as a whole, I think I need to be more mindful that this is a marketing forum, and there are people who take "marketing" to a whole new level

    Long way of saying, "thanks for the post"
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jenn,

      I wouldn't call it naive. I'd think more along the lines of "no need to have the experience that brings that sort of knowledge."

      The worst of this stuff, in terms of sneakiness, isn't something most honest people would become aware of without having moderated a forum. The black hats (in the evil sense of the word) trade in it, so a lot more of them know it.

      There's much worse than what I listed, but it's mostly not stuff that members without mod access can do anything about, so there's no point giving anyone those ideas who doesn't already have them.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Roger,

        Complete agreement, on all points. Especially the feeling of futility that can occur when some 3rd party feels the need to hijack a thread over minutiae they usually don't even understand.

        That's where it's helpful to remember that you're often talking to the silent readers, rather than the person whose comments evoked the response. That keeps the value of the post in mind. Of course, that's not as gratifying as slapping the idiot upside the head would be, but that would bring all sorts of other complications.

        This point...
        I do see a problem in that if someone writes quality thought out posts - that takes time. Due to the nature of the opposite kind of posting, it doesn't take as much time - therefore the quantity can be overwhelming and cause the problem mentioned in 4) above.
        ... is incredibly important for people to consider. It's probably the most important point that has been, or will be, made in this thread. And it's true regardless of the intentions of the poster.

        That's why informed use of the "Report Post" icon to flag the crap is so important. Combine that with reading with a skeptical (not cynical) eye, and you've got the ideal participant.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Rich,

          I've noticed that starting off with a copy-and-paste is a fast one-way ticket to nukedom. Reporting them definitely helps to alert the mods, which speeds it up even more.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Paul, some of the things that you've pointed out are pretty obvious and
          easy to spot (well, after you've pointed them out anyway) but what about
          the more subtle things? The things that maybe the casual forum participant
          would not recognize?

          My question is simple.

          How does one train themselves to spot all the problems that might crop up
          on a forum such as this, or is that simply not possible to do and that's
          where we need to simply rely on the admins and those like yourself to
          keep things in order?

          I ask because, like Jenn, I too am pretty trusting. If somebody seems
          sincere, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's how I've been
          taken by cons myself. You know the story from last year so I won't go
          into it here.

          Anyway, some tips on training your intuition, eye, whatever you want to
          call it, would probably be helpful, again...if it's even at all possible.
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Paul,

            Especially the feeling of futility that can occur when some 3rd party feels the need to hijack a thread over minutiae they usually don't even understand
            No need to make your freudian slaps at me so cutting, sir!

            Hi Steven,

            The thread got deleted yesterday, but someone asked what made me copy/paste an OP into google to find that it was a copy/paste. It's easy - they usually look like an article, rather than a forum post. Some even have 'in this email' within the post, giving away the fact that it's pasted from an autoresponder email.
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            Roger Davis

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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Paul,

              Another dangerous breed which you haven't mentioned specifically is the "WSO lawyer".

              When people call them on being misleading/scamming/rule breaking they quote the WF rules at them and make threats.

              "You are not allowed to try and ruin someone's WSO. If you don't delete your comment I will get Allan to ban you from the Warrior Forum."

              These people are usually very mean and nasty because they get really angry with people who interfere with their god-given right to cheat others.

              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi Tina,

                It can get frustrating to report a post and then see 8 people posting their thanks but at least I feel like I'm doing my little part to keep this forum clean and valuable.
                At risk of sounding like I'm saying 'it was better in the old days' () that's one of the things that has arrived in recent times, specifically when you call them out in the thread. Sometimes it's almost 'as if' someone runs off to create a new ID just to do it.

                1. OP (150 posts) = 'blah blah spammy bunch of crap'

                2. responsible poster (7k posts ) = 'sorry, but that's a dangerous, misleading, spammy bunch of crap. Here's why.......'

                3. new ID (3 posts) = 'thanks OP, awesome stuff!'

                4. New ID (2 posts) = 'thanks OP, I agree. Some people need to chill out'

                Sigh.......
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                Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Steven,

            Here's a basic primer on improving your judgement: Improve Your Instincts TalkBiz News: The Blog

            As for spotting ALL the problems: Forget it. You're pitting your one brain against all the evil *******s in the world. Most honest people restrict their thinking in ways that crooks and creeps don't, so the crooks and creeps have more options available to them.

            Here's the key to becoming a world class problem spotter: Understand that you don't have to be smarter or more evil than the sum of the whole crowd. You can, single-handedly, stop every one of them that's less creative than you.

            Learn to ask the questions an evil ******* would ask: How do I break this? What would get me access to the "good stuff" here, whatever that might be? Where are the weak points? What is the process, and what are the vulnerabilities at each step?

            To figure it out live, the main question is: "What things could this person be after right now, and why might they be going about it this way?"

            Watch other forums, or different people within a single forum.

            Never assume you're right without checking. You may have to act on the possible answers, but you want to try and do so with appropriate discretion. The trick is to act in ways that cause the least potential damage consistent with your goals.

            Sometimes that means you'll make mistakes. Oh well... you're human. None of us get it right every time, no matter how hard we try or how good our information or experience.

            The best way to learn is to do it.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Tina,

              If we only had another dozen or so with your attitude... Thank you, ma'am!

              Nigel,

              Nice distinction between the mis-guided and the folks who prey on them. That's a really helpful thing to keep in mind. Thanks for that.

              Martin,

              Excellent addition to the list. Forum lawyers suck. Unless they're, like, you know, actual lawyers, talking about the law and stuff. In which case only 98% of them suck.

              I fit those folks in the same category as people who insist that Rule #1 forbids any strong disagreement. They're simply to be ignored until they become a big enough problem to warrant removal.

              Any other categories I forgot, folks?


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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    Hi Paul,
    Yes I agree there's been an marked increase in those joining/posting recently that don't give a rats behind about this forum but how they can leverage it quickly to make a buck. Something I know Roger has found like I is the recent trend of copying and pasting other IM articles into their first few posts to big themselves up. Well does jack for me and I've called them out. Everyone here can copy and paste.
    Certainly agree that posts need reporting ASAP. Maybe if enough people do this then the word will get out that the warrior forum isn't the place to cut and run with a few bucks!

    Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author Nigel Greaves
    Paul,

    An excellent post as always.

    I think one thing that is driving these people in to the forum is possibly the economic climate. The new people who are looking to supplement or replace their incomes and believe that they can get away with turning out any old tat. That belief is driven by the things they read along the lines of "it's easy to make money, just auto generate a blog and sell it for hundreds of dollars" etc. These fit into the group that have no malice and are at best mis-guided.

    The flip side to those people are the low lifes that prey on them. These are the ones that you identified very clearly. They are malicious and are simply trying to use our forum to rip people off with worthless garbage under the pretext of being Warriors.

    It's up to all of us as member of the WF to show them the door in double quick time and your post has made it much easier to identify the sly ones that seem to sneak in much more frequently these days.

    Nigel
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    The term comes from the fishing technique by the same name, which involves pulling bait or a lure on a line behind a boat, hoping the fish won't see that it's a trap and will hook themselves.
    It also owes some heritage to the old children's story "The Three Billy Goats Gruff".

    Who's that trip-trapping over my bridge?!
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Paul, thank you for your reply on spotting problems. That will help a lot.

      Folks, one thing that nobody has commented on yet is how Paul has taken
      what could have been a really dull subject and made it a must read, starting
      with the title of the thread...copywriting genius if you ask me.

      And then the way he describes the vermin in the body of the post.

      I wonder how many people realize that not only does Paul educate us well,
      but he does it in a way that doesn't make us want to yawn and turn on
      the TV in the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jagged
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    In the past, it was the job of the moderators to handle this when it came up. As time has gone on, the cycles have grown shorter, because the number of new people coming in each month has grown. It's now reached the point where we need bug hunters in-house pretty much all the time.

    That would be you.
    Thanks Paul for pointing out that this is OUR house and WE are responsible for housekeeping. Don't wait for the next guy / gal to handle it....don't just sweep things under the rug.

    I've noticed many of these threads started that are started for the sole sake of inducing arguement.....Paul has called out a couple in recent days....in these same threads i've also noticed that most replies are from "low count" members looking to bump their post totals...this goes on until for the most part until someone, usually one of the warrior elite points out that they are a troll. I've seen it were there are 30-40 posts with maybe 2 posts from members with a post count over 100...

    It's not only the troll to watch for...it's the coat tail posters, maybe not one-line wonders....harmless as they seem...that need to be brought to light also...


    Question: At what point does one become a "warrior"?

    At sign up?
    At a certain post count level?
    When they contribute value to the forum?
    ....Other?

    I ask because rule #1 states: [If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God, take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.]

    Is a new member, one who joins solely for the 15 posts - WSO, or to post babble.....are they truly considered "warriors"? Can we call them out in open forum without retribution from rule #1?

    I understand it says "no exceptions", but if they are not considered warriors...does no exceptions even apply?


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Paul,

    The Regurgitator: This is the person who comes in after reading a couple of books and thinks s/he's a marketing genius. They spout cliches as absolutes, opinion as fact, and generally run off at the keyboard without having the first hint of a whiff of a sniff of clue, and expect their comments to be taken as Gospel.
    IMHO these are the folks who cause more harm than good to the new folks and the not so new folks, than any other listed above. Although we are all responsible for doing our own "due diligence", as Jenn said above many of us have a propensity to take people and what they say at face value.

    However, with some very pointed questions back at "The Regurgitator", it doesn't take long before these folks have egg all over their face. Therefore it is very important for each of us to weigh closely what we read before we take it as the "Gospel".

    Thanks Paul for taking your time to write this post.

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,

    "It's hard to get people to listen if you turn off their ears."

    Or, to use a musical analogy: People will tell you the tune they want to hear. You just have to fit the lyrics to the melody.

    Ken (Jagged),

    Rule #1 is NOT intended to prevent open debate, even hostile debate, among active members. It's meant primarily to stop people from posting customer service issues, claims about someone's business practices and the like, in an attempt to harm or blackmail another person.

    That's the basic intent, as I understand it. It's become the way to bully people into shutting up, but that doesn't work very often, as the senior folks mostly understand how it's applied.

    Ken Leatherman,

    Yep. The misinformation is more dangerous than all the evil *******s combined. That's where us old geezers can be helpful.

    Nathan,

    Excellent idea, and it's the way things used to be done. The problems are technical, though, and more difficult to solve than a simple policy change would allow for. Switching software always has trade-offs. I suspect that's one that Allen's working on.


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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I aggressively report all those one-liners. The fact that they don't disappear immediately tells me that there should be more people of like mind. You get a click on the thanks button Paul.

    TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tina,

      We in the trade have a technical term for such folks: Liars.

      Tommy,

      Gotta be careful with those. I watched one guy, a programmer, lose a ton of legit one-line responses recently. He was recommending specific book or software titles, without affiliate links, in response to questions people asked about how to do things.

      I suspect you'd have seen the difference, but a lot of people might tend to get carried away, which is why I suggested actually looking at the person's posting history. Most folks don't have your experience.


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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Paul thanks for that.......... had to say it as well

    One group I find a problem, are those who can have a decent post count, and then people assume what they say is gospel because of their post count.

    Having said that, we also have the problem where people who have come this year, with a couple of hundred posts, who try and tear down anyone with a higher post count than them.

    Someone asks a question, and a warrior who is experienced in that area posts a factual answer. Someone with a lowish count comes in, and says "Don't take this personally, but......" The know it is a personal attack, because it is a standard thing with them.

    A great way to try and put down someone who knows what they are talking about, and making themselves looking important.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bev,

      The post count thing is (usually) invented in the mind of the reader. I saw an exception earlier today, where someone posting anonymously made some claims (Maybe true, maybe not) that are impossible to verify, and used his post count as a justification for demanding that no-one question him.

      THAT is silly. All sorts of wrong assumptions implied in the post. Yeah... Those people are hazards. Even if what they say is 100% true, the implications carry over with some readers and create potential problems.

      The "Don't take this personally" thing reminds me of one of my favorite forum gambits: Attempting to trivialize ideas by attacking the person presenting them.

      That's not a vermin category, though. More a sloppy thinking thing.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    Would it be harmful to the forum if this OP was made into a sticky (aka, spammers reading this sticky if it becomes one).

    I'd recomend it become a sticky (if it hasn't already, its taken me ages to read the OP and responses)

    I for one will take this responsibility more serious and report posts (I didn't even know which button to press to report)

    Particlularly the 'I'm going to quit internet marketing' posts.... they annoy me big time.

    awsome stuff Paul.


    p.s. I know Paul spoke about how most of the spammers are too short term to read and 'benefit' from this post... was just wondering if they would read it if it became a sticky.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Simon,

      I could add it, along with a summary, to the "Being a better member moderator" sticky. Not a bad idea. Thanks.


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  • Profile picture of the author MikeRogers
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    We go through cycles here, just like every other forum. Ours has traditionally involved the need for occasional fumigation, to get rid of the one-line wonders and other virtual vermin.
    I wondered why I had been feeling a bit ill lately :p

    But, I completely agree with the rest of what you had to say...

    And, sometimes we need to hear (read) it to reinforce what we should already know.

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mike,
      I wondered why I had been feeling a bit ill lately
      Bottle flu, dude. You got some bad ice.


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      • Profile picture of the author skyward
        Paul,

        Thank you. We haven't met, but your "Need to Know" report is my standard reading, having downloaded it 2 weeks or so ago.

        This post is an education for me in itself. I can be very naive, and there's no doubt that I have been lured into reading posts here that have been deceptive in nature.

        Thanks for your help in bringing this information to light!

        Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye



    Well, we all must cope with life's circumstances I reckon,
    even cockroaches.



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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I am going to assume the real problem with "one liners" is just the push to get to the WSO posting level.

    Aside from that, it's always better to get your point across in as few words as possible.

    Nobody likes a rambling blowhard. Those who require pages and pages of text to present a basic concept simply love to blab.
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I am going to assume the real problem with "one liners" is just the push to get to the WSO posting level.
      Well, if you buy a wso from someone with exactly 31 posts who has a history of 30 one line posts before the wso, then what can I say?

      Paul - Yes, it's true, many may push the button with nary a thought to the legitimacy of the post. So for most, I'll withdraw the recommendation

      TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Jeff,

          Glad you're finding the book useful.

          Reading deceptive posts isn't nearly as big a problem as acting on them. That does raise an interesting point... Should there be a separate category for the person whose subject lines are sneaky or misleading?

          Loren,

          [chuckle] Another great moment in literature.

          Michael,
          I am going to assume the real problem with "one liners" is just the push to get to the WSO posting level.
          The side effects of that push are the problem, but yes. As a rule, the posts add nothing but noise to discussions. They also promote an attitude of "Do whatever you need to do to get the money," which isn't conducive to developing a sense of community.
          Nobody likes a rambling blowhard.
          Not true. I have many friends.

          TomG and Big Mike,

          That's doable, actually.

          All it would take is a few people who occasionally post something politely bringing people's attention to the circumstances around the poster. Maybe something like:

          "This person has very few posts, many of them contributing little to the group. You may want to consider whether you wish to encourage that sort of behavior by rewarding it."

          Of course, the sneaks may use multiple user accounts to get such comments nuked, but that would just tend to expose those accounts to the mods. And there's nothing preventing one from posting such a thing again. If it catches on with even a few people who frequent the WSO forum, that could work.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            TomG and Big Mike,

            That's doable, actually.

            All it would take is a few people who occasionally post something politely bringing people's attention to the circumstances around the poster. Maybe something like:

            "This person has very few posts, many of them contributing little to the group. You may want to consider whether you wish to encourage that sort of behavior by rewarding it."

            Of course, the sneaks may use multiple user accounts to get such comments nuked, but that would just tend to expose those accounts to the mods. And there's nothing preventing one from posting such a thing again. If it catches on with even a few people who frequent the WSO forum, that could work.


            Paul
            Paul and Big Mike - I think this is a good idea, and I'm game. When I see things like this I'll surely make an extra effort to look a little deeper. This forum has been REALLY good to me, and I've made many friends, contacts, and posts and I'll do A LOT to make sure that the spammers and trolls won't lower the quality of this haven one bit.

            TomG.
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          • Profile picture of the author tkalamba
            One liners and the like are pretty much universally found in any forum, regardless of niche. Their motives may not always be the same, but I find them in everything from automotive forums to videogaming forums. Unfortunately they are a sad reality in forums.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
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            • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
              Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

              After reading this post I now recognize some of the people I have been talking to as "vermin"...it's just a hard distinction to make.
              The ability to recognise patterns of forum
              behaviour comes with experience. It gets
              easier.

              They all seem to mean well, I almost would feel guilty flagging them, just in case I'm wrong.
              No need to feel guilty, your report on its
              own won't "do harm". However, if enough
              people agree with you.. it will make a real
              difference.

              John
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Tommy/BigMike,

          we make the choice to perpetuate this by readily buying from 30 post wonders or starting a culture of change by just saying no until those folks make more of an effort to contribute to the quality of the forum.

          As lucrative as the WSo Forum can be, it's not the primary purpose of the WF - I've always seen it as a privilege for regularly contributing members to use.

          That's not to say that every new member is here to exploit the WSO Forum, but the word on the street can be changed from, "Make thirty posts and run a WSO and a fortune" to, "Don't even think about it unless you're willing to put some effort into your membership."
          I agree.

          I think it's worth pointing out to some of the newer people here that if they look at the people who feature heavily/continually as WSO sellers and those who feature heavily/continually as contributors in the rest of the forum, there is actually quite a large disconnect between the two.

          I see some permanent WSOers (none of them have posted in this thread (or many others for that matter :rolleyes) who barely exist elsewhere in the rest of the forum.

          Obviously, it isn't a requirement to post elsewhere in any way, and I'm not suggesting that someone who doesn't run WSOs must be an angel.

          What I am suggesting though is that in some cases, in my experience as a buyer, it appears to me that it's a lot less likely that someone is going to 'take the money and run' if they have a certain feeling of belonging to the community, giving at least a shit about the welfare of it, and also having friends within it that have a similar attitude.

          These are the type of things that can more than likely only be experienced after spending some time within it, acknowledging that the experience within has helped them to grow and progress, and therefore feeling a social responsibility to give something back (in whatever way is suitable for that individual) in order that other people who come along needing something can ALSO have the same kind of beneficial experience - as well as continuing to maintain the standards that have been set previously by the owner and anyone who was here before themselves - the oldies, like Paul :-)

          For me, without that experience I have had here, the internet would be one lonely, inhuman place.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Anyone who believes they need exactly 30 posts (no more, no less) to achieve an adequate level of trust to start peddling (yes, I mean peddling) to this forum...needs their head read.

    Of course, there are exceptions. But not many, and the exceptions always shine through, anyway.

    I could've written that so much better, but hopefully you get my point...

    Cheers,
    Steve
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    I want to go to 'Roger School'...

    Great post, mate.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Steven,

      I want to go to 'Roger School'...
      How do you rate on the 'hard knock' scale?
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      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Steven,



        How do you rate on the 'hard knock' scale?
        Roger

        I don't have gifs on tap, but apart from that, I'm golden...



        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Steven,

          I don't have gifs on tap
          Do you have gf's on tap?

          If so, you're in. In fact you can have all the house points and my sandwiches.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Steven,



            Do you have gf's on tap?

            If so, you're in. In fact you can have all the house points and my sandwiches.

            Oooh, a JV

            You get to keep the piccallily, though...
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Steven,

              You get to keep the piccallily, though...
              Why? Are your gf's into that? Ok...takes all sorts. Whipped cream's more my bag, but whatever....

              Sorry Paul, I'll stop there.
              Signature


              Roger Davis

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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Roger,
                Sorry Paul, I'll stop there.
                You were about to push the rating to an 'R.'


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            • Profile picture of the author TelegramSam
              Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

              You get to keep the piccallily, though...

              My God!

              Piccallily. I haven't heard that word since I was a small boy going round to my gran's for Sunday lunch.

              Pity it tasted so foul as a kid. I would probably like it now.

              Back to the point of the thread, if 3 people complain about something, does that mean it always gets deleted?

              What if the subject is contentious and it does evoke complaints in people, but that it should remain on the site for others to comment on?

              How does moderation work then?

              Just a thought.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Sam,
                Back to the point of the thread, if 3 people complain about something, does that mean it always gets deleted?

                What if the subject is contentious and it does evoke complaints in people, but that it should remain on the site for others to comment on?
                Depends on which three people, but if enough complain, it will get sent to a separate section for review. Very few threads come back from there.

                There have been a lot of threads that got sent away simply because some folks are too touchy. Not a large percentage, but a lot in absolute numbers. That's a cost of the speed of member moderation.


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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    If you see posts that say things like, "Great post. Thanks for the share," or "Thanks. That's really great info," and the poster has a low post count, look at their profile and check their other comments. If they have a lot of one or two line posts that seem rushed, use the report post button. (The red triangle with the black exclamation point, at the lower left of each post.)
    The only reason I haven't been doing this is because I was under the impression the Report Post button was only for the most blatant and obnoxious spamming or trolling.

    I thought if I started reporting every one-line drive-by newbie, whoever is on the other end of the Report Post button would lambaste me for adding to their already-overwhelming moderating load.

    But if you want more of those kinds of posts reported, I'll be more than happy to help...
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Rather than being so fast to nuke posts of possibly misguided noobies, if it were my forum, I'd rather see someone enlighten them first and take drastic measures only if necessary. The WSO forum is what makes this site profitable, and in these economic times, profitable is a good thing ... not to be discouraged, IMHO. It's a natural thing to me to want to get your posts up and try to start making some money. Those who jump into too quickly without some participation and people getting to know them a bit, will probably fail the first few rounds, but may come around eventually.

    I've seen some posts of mine disappear with no explanation whatsoever and don't have a clue as to why they did. Someone with a quick trigger finger is all I can guess. They weren't one liners or mindless bitching or any of the other categories you've mentioned.

    When you have a forum with a lot of new people coming in, some of them are bound to make "mistakes" but I wouldn't want to be the one chasing prospective "customers" from my forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Rather than being so fast to nuke posts of possibly misguided noobies, if it were my forum, I'd rather see someone enlighten them first and take drastic measures only if necessary.
      Nuking a few posts isn't a drastic measure, especially if they're one-liners that don't contribute anything. A drastic measure would be banning such misguided newbies from the forum, but nobody's advocating that, as far as I can tell.

      Encouraging as many WSOs to be posted as possible by anyone who shows up here is not the way to ensure long-term profitability of this forum, IMHO -- just the opposite.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

        Nuking a few posts isn't a drastic measure, especially if they're one-liners that don't contribute anything. A drastic measure would be banning such misguided newbies from the forum, but nobody's advocating that, as far as I can tell.

        Encouraging as many WSOs to be posted as possible by anyone who shows up here is not the way to ensure long-term profitability of this forum, IMHO -- just the opposite.
        I don't believe I said any of the above. I said that instead of nuking a post with no explanation to the person you nuked, why not enlighten them first.

        I also said nothing about encouraging as many WSOs as possible by anyone who shows up, but then WSOs is what the WSO forum is all about, isn't it? The quality of WSOs is up to the person who approves or denies them, so I would say that alone, would be sufficient to keep scammy and poor quality WSOs from the forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Rather than being so fast to nuke posts of possibly misguided noobies, if it were my forum, I'd rather see someone enlighten them first and take drastic measures only if necessary.
        As Ken pointed out, there's nothing "drastic" about nuking pointless one-liners. There is something significantly problematic about allowing them, as you can imagine.

        If that's how you think a forum should be run, go run your own forum. One with thousands of active members. Try explaining your policies to people who have no interest in anything but exploiting your efforts for their gain, at your expense. (The last part is the problem, in case that wasn't obvious.)

        Do that with every newbie who strolls in, day after day, for as long as you have new members signing up.

        Once you've done that for, oh, 10 years or more, come back and tell us how the place should be run.

        The stickies at the top of the forum tell you what you need to know. If someone is too lazy or ignorant to learn how an existing community works before they try to exploit it, they deserve to be ejected from that community.

        Your suggested approach sounds nice, and shows concern for others, but it doesn't work on any kind of large scale. And the fact remains that many of the people who pull this stuff don't care to learn. They actively resist it, because it's not part of their plan.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          I said that instead of nuking a post with no explanation to the person you nuked, why not enlighten them first.
          Do you really want to know the answer to that?


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Do you really want to know the answer to that?


            Paul
            No .. not any longer. Not if you're just going to tell me to go run my own forum for expressing an opinion. I'll just unsubscribe to this thread and you all can carry on.

            Cheers
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              No .. not any longer.
              I suspected you wouldn't.
              Not if you're just going to tell me to go run my own forum for expressing an opinion.
              Indeed. How rude of me to suggest that you gather some experience on which to base your opinions. (Note: I didn't say to leave this one. Just gather some experience.)

              Whatever. She's left the thread.

              For those who might be interested in the answer to her question, here's the short form:

              A: The person you explain your actions to will often argue incessantly, sometimes escalating to extreme behaviors in an effort to "win" the point.

              The worst psychos in any forum are people who have fixated on one or two people they imagine have wronged them. Those people make a point to be destructive to the entire group, as their only easy way to "punish" the moderator.

              B: There isn't enough time in the day to explain every action you take as a mod. Not even with cut-and-paste template comments or hotkeys.

              C: Most of them don't care. They don't want to learn what you're teaching. The ones who do care will read the rules and not start this stuff in the first place.

              D: You NEVER want to encourage the idea that a forum is a democracy. That will kill most groups faster than you might imagine.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author TedMarlett
                  Paul,

                  I really do appreciate your comments here. That's why I subscribed to your news letter.

                  I have been on the forum since 2006 and still find it hard to believe some of the stuff that's written here. I only follow a few people in this forum and listen to what they say.

                  I am learning to sort the wheat from the chaff, but it is terribly hard.

                  I believe Ken said something about regurgitated information and I strongly believe he is right on that one.

                  Many threads have nothing I want to read because it does sound like "the next best solution" to anyone's IM problem set up by someone without many posts and no discernible experience.

                  I do take replying to posts seriously even though I don't have much experience. Unfortunately most of my posts do not express much help for anyone, let alone me.

                  Thanks again
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  • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
    Hey Paul,

    Good and informative post - thanks!

    I always thought that trolls, vermin, and digital cockroaches were all the same with the same end goal in mind, but according to your description of each, I stand corrected (and rightfully so).

    I think many members are leaving the moderation up to everyone else. The thing is, who is everyone else? If we all think that way, this forum will be taken over in a matter of days. This is a community, and we should be working for the common good of said community.

    Thanks for the share! (and no, I don't do the pirating thing either, I sware)


    Mary
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Hmmm...I do wonder what your opinion is on the blackhatters that are infiltrating this forum - the Cookie Stuffers and Craigs List/eBay CPA spammers and scammers. They even have WSOs on it. Personally I find it incredible. But after coming off a two week ban for "spoiling another member's WSO" I'm loathe to even comment on my purchases now. I've just bought one of these blackhat WSOs and the cruel and underhand tactics it recommended just made my blood boil. All I could do was ask for a refund. Meanwhile these b*stards are raking it in. And giving I.M. an even worse rep - if that's possible. What do you think of that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Tina,
      People who get their posts deleted need to realize that there are very few people here who can nuke a thread all by themselves. Most of the time, it takes at least three reports to get one deleted.
      That's something folks tend to forget, since they think in terms of the old style of moderation. I'm guilty of forgetting that myself from time to time.

      As Mary points out, a lot of people simply forget, don't know, or don't care that they have a role to play in the process. That slows things down, and allows the vermin to chew on the furniture a bit longer before getting nuked.

      Ted points out a big chunk of the problem: Just learning to sort the useful stuff from the clueless fluff is tough enough. New folks may be better off focusing on their businesses.

      Metronicity,

      I agree with you on the issue of WSOs selling stuff that teaches the evil side of "black hat" techniques. Part of the problem is that "black hat" has the double meaning. Some of it isn't really all that "black" in nature. The stuff that is should be removed when it's found, but that comes back to the technical issues I mentioned earlier.

      As far as your having been given a forced leave for your comments on a WSO, I don't have a clue what that's about, so I couldn't say with any certainty if it was right or not.

      I can suggest that it's possible that your ... aggressive ... posting style may have contributed to the decision. Whether that's right or not is another discussion, but it's something that does tend to get taken into account. How you choose to deal with that is up to you, of course. It is something you need to consider, at the least.

      The main point of your question is a valid one. We do need to work out something that lets those types of offers get handled - as in, removed and not reinstated.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
    How effective is WSO?

    I mean if people go to that much trouble there must be a reason.

    I have contributed 200 posts in less than a week to participate and help other IM's. Never heard of WSO or knew what is was until a couple of days ago.

    I do think WSO posting rights by number of posts is asking for trouble.

    A much better way of doing it would be by number of time "thanked", because that shows a genuinely useful contribution.
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by apc01 View Post

      How effective is WSO?

      I mean if people go to that much trouble there must be a reason.

      I have contributed 200 posts in less than a week to participate and help other IM's. Never heard of WSO or knew what is was until a couple of days ago.

      I do think WSO posting rights by number of posts is asking for trouble.

      A much better way of doing it would be by number of time "thanked", because that shows a genuinely useful contribution.
      Sadly, that would only incite multiple user logins and thanks for everybody via automated bots. Same thing. The solution is quite complex, looking at range of IPs, determining patterns between users, age and type of posts, etc. The best algorithm is simply having people actually give a crap (oops, did I say crap?).

      TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

        The best algorithm is simply having people actually give a crap (oops, did I say crap?).
        Well -- the race is on to build a better give-a-crapbot.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Paul

          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          The idea was for Warriors to offer special deals to other Warriors, as one of the perks (both ways) of membership.
          What's the point of a perk if membership is free and takes a few seconds ?

          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          And opens up a whole other set of problems. At that point, posting measures become pointless,
          as do any other metrics. It's a plain old classified ad forum, which we already have.
          - What are these problems ?

          - "posting measures become pointless" - I don't understand, there
          will be no need for posting measures regarding the 30 post limit

          - It's not a "plain old classified ad forum" because you need
          to make a special offer i.e a reduced price not given elsewhere


          Harvey
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      A much better way of doing it would be by number of time "thanked", because that shows a genuinely useful contribution.
      Just as easily gamed. The creeps create a few extra accounts, thank each other, and *poof.*

      There's another, less obvious, problem with that idea in practice. Some people use styles that don't promote others to thank them. These tend to be folks who give direct replies, without the personal touch. The information in those replies is often the most useful in the thread, but it doesn't invoke the "Thank you" response.

      There's no way to stop the gaming of the system. The goal then is to reduce the impact of, and profit from, that gaming.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
    Well the WSO looks a mess to me - only serves to really confuse IM's - especially new ones. Forum software doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

    I actually would not want a product of mine to be seen there Sends the wrong message.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Forum software doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.
      Yet, strangely, it's been a working tradition for some ten years or so. And a profitable one for many people.
      I actually would not want a product of mine to be seen there Sends the wrong message.
      Really? What message is that?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Yet, strangely, it's been a working tradition for some ten years or so. And a profitable one for many people.
        Interesting. I must take a closer look it seems.

        I had assumed that with so many offers being posted, they would be pushed down to the second and deeper pages soon, and not getting any exposure - bit like not being on the first page of Google SERPS.

        Really? What message is that?
        Paul
        I could have phrased that better

        What I meant was that if you have a really good product, if there are loads of people here posting 30 quick posts to post in WSO just to post their offer, then it devalues all the genuine offers.

        That said, after a week, I know next to nothing about WSO, so I am sort of assuming that to be the case.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Metronicity,
          The PDF is an 11 page double-spaced poorly-written "treatise" on how to con people with false classifieds leading to their crappy CPA offers.
          I've commented on such offers within their WSO threads. Pointing out that they're unethical is fine, assuming you've seen the product. Whoever banned you either had other additional reasons, or they screwed up. Or both. It's a messy process, and mistakes happen.

          If you run into that sort of thing again, PM me a copy of the product. I am ... ummm ... unlikely to be banned for making a comment on such a thing. And I can almost certainly get it removed.

          apc01,
          I had assumed that with so many offers being posted, they would be pushed down to the second and deeper pages soon, and not getting any exposure - bit like not being on the first page of Google SERPS.
          They do get pushed down quickly. That doesn't stop them from working, if you have the right kind of offer.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Before Roger & Steven got talking about Picallily (which you can buy in Hong Kong), Roger made a good comment about people who seem to be permanently in the WSO, bumping and rebumping their WSO without seeming to contribute to the forum.

    Would it be possible to make the WSO like the OT, where the posts are not added to the post count.

    Silly question time from me. Any reason why we have to be logged in to view the OT but not the WSO?
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I can suggest that it's possible that your ... aggressive ... posting style may have contributed to the decision. Whether that's right or not is another discussion, but it's something that does tend to get taken into account. How you choose to deal with that is up to you, of course. It is something you need to consider, at the least.

    The main point of your question is a valid one. We do need to work out something that lets those types of offers get handled - as in, removed and not reinstated.
    WTF you mean "aggressive posting style"!!! Just kidding - I take your point.

    As to the second bit, if I were to show you the tactics in the PDF I bought, I think you would be more than somewhat annoyed too. And again its from someone with a minimum of posts/very new and gaming the system. In cahoots with another more established Warrior who leaves a glowing "review". The PDF is an 11 page double-spaced poorly-written "treatise" on how to con people with false classifieds leading to their crappy CPA offers. And of course the OP sees nothing unethical or wrong in what they're doing.

    The other worry is the well-known cookie-stuffer who's currently running a WSO. I wouldn't be clicking on his signature for starters.

    That's all I'm saying or I run the risk of being sin-binned again. PM me if you want to know more.
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  • Profile picture of the author 123rlp
    Now I know why my post count went from 80 something to 18 boy I must admit that paranioa is never 20/20.Not only am I an admitted noob I dont evean have a signature.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I agree with the rules for "qualifying" before posting in the WSO section - whether posting something to sell or a comment. I've noticed quite a few WSO's in recent months that I know are based on "money for me" rather than on "quality product/advice" but the rule on not interfering has kept me from saying anything. I'm not going to buy crap just to warn others about it.

      I've wondered, though, what percent of refund requests come from those brand new people who join, hit the WSO section and start buying. Also wonder what percent of the "sharing" of products on other sites is done through this particular group.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Nathan,

        There are two schools (at least) on the subject. One is that it benefits sellers to have the WSO forum open. The other is that it encourages abuse. I'm not convinced of the last one enough to lobby for closing it to all but members. I'm not opposed to the idea, either.

        That's Allen's call. He's the one you'd have to sell.

        Kay,
        I've wondered, though, what percent of refund requests come from those brand new people who join, hit the WSO section and start buying. Also wonder what percent of the "sharing" of products on other sites is done through this particular group.
        The first... probably fairly high. Hard to say with any certainty.

        The second... Not so much. There's probably quite a lot of it from folks who join and start selling as soon as they can. I'm seeing some interesting patterns in topics, behaviors and locations for many of those.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Metronicity,

          Got the PDF, thanks. One of the techniques involves spamming, of a sort. The other two are outright fraud, in the "get caught, get fined, maybe go to jail" sense of the word.

          I've posted a comment in the thread and sent Allen a note about the WSO. Thank you.

          Tyrus,
          Many people are just here because of the WSO's and would quickly leave if they couldn't use them to make a profit.
          Cool. Let them leave. Especially if they're selling crap like what Metronicity just sent me.
          People want to make some quick cash. The WSO forum allows them that. Whatever restriction exists people will find a way to go over them, one way or the other.
          Don't be too certain of that. There are ways that are MUCH harder to get around, to the point where it's not even close to worth the effort that would be needed.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyrus Antas
    The WSO has become more popular than the General Section. What does that tell you? Many people are just here because of the WSO's and would quickly leave if they couldn't use them to make a profit.

    If you take a look at forums like digital point you'll see the marketplace has also become the most popular section of the forum by far.

    People want to make some quick cash. The WSO forum allows them that. Whatever restriction exists people will find a way to go over them, one way or the other.

    Tyrus
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    • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
      Originally Posted by Tyrus Antas View Post

      The WSO has become more popular than the General Section. What does that tell you? Many people are just here because of the WSO's and would quickly leave if they couldn't use them to make a profit.

      If you take a look at forums like digital point you'll see the marketplace has also become the most popular section of the forum by far.

      People want to make some quick cash. The WSO forum allows them that. Whatever restriction exists people will find a way to go over them, one way or the other.

      Tyrus
      I have noticed that far more people browse WSO as well, which tell me that people are looking for IM products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
    Maybe it would help if it was noted somewhere (and not necessarily in detail) what happens after the 'report' button is pushed. I used to think that reporting a post meant that the entire thread would disappear, which is enough to make anyone think twice if the thread is clearly a valuable one.

    Even now I wonder just who or what I'd be over-burdening if I were to report all of the 'Thanks nice share!' posts that there are around here. If I knew it was a system that was mostly automated and could handle the deluge then I'd probably report more often, but it's the prospect of a bunch of mods drowning under reports of one-liners while bigger offenders get away that usually stops me.

    It's been an interesting thread, Paul. Thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      A key issue here is whether only 'contributing members'
      should be allowed to post a WSO.

      The problem is that you can't easily define a contributing
      member and even if you do (by means of minimum posts or
      number of thank-yous) there will always be workarounds.

      Also it could be argued that we should similarly restrict
      access to purchase a WSO (as opposed to post) to
      contributing members.

      Personally I think the WSO section should be an open
      marketplace where you purchase products at a discount.

      So my suggestion would be

      * Scrap the 30 post restriction. This removes the huge
      problem of the one-line post workarounds.

      * Put a big warning in the WSO section advising members to
      check the posting history if they are concerned about an
      offer. So it's up to you if you are happy to purchase from a
      new member.


      Harvey
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Diana,

        If it's the first post in a thread and it goes away, the whole thread goes away. If it's not, then only the reported post gets sent to "purgatory."

        Harvey,
        Personally I think the WSO section should be an open marketplace where you purchase products at a discount.
        I now remember why I once thought it should be closed to non-members. And I think I've just revived that opinion.

        The idea was for Warriors to offer special deals to other Warriors, as one of the perks (both ways) of membership.
        * Scrap the 30 post restriction. This removes the huge problem of the one-line post workarounds.
        And opens up a whole other set of problems. At that point, posting measures become pointless, as do any other metrics. It's a plain old classified ad forum, which we already have.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
        Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

        A key issue here is whether only 'contributing members'
        should be allowed to post a WSO.

        The problem is that you can't easily define a contributing
        member and even if you do (by means of minimum posts or
        number of thank-yous) there will always be workarounds.

        Also it could be argued that we should similarly restrict
        access to purchase a WSO (as opposed to post) to
        contributing members.

        Personally I think the WSO section should be an open
        marketplace where you purchase products at a discount.

        So my suggestion would be

        * Scrap the 30 post restriction. This removes the huge
        problem of the one-line post workarounds.

        * Put a big warning in the WSO section advising members to
        check the posting history if they are concerned about an
        offer. So it's up to you if you are happy to purchase from a
        new member.


        Harvey
        As I see it the main issues with WSO are:

        1. Lack of human management

        2. Using forum software for a purpose it was not designed for.

        3. Encouraging random people with "offers" to downgrade the main forums to hit the 30 post requirement.

        From what I see of WSO - large number of products and very large number of people browsing the products, WSO should be a dedicated resource.

        It could be done, but of course it is Allen's call.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Of course there's an obvious solution, which
    won't go down to well, but someone needs to
    say it..

    Shut down the WSO Forum.

    That would solve a lot of problems.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Harvey,
      What's the point of a perk if membership is free and takes a few seconds?
      Who are you, and what have you done with Harvey?

      Access to selling in the WSO section is supposed to "cost" in participation, not cash. I would personally be in favor of raising the required post count to 100, AND adding a time requirement for membership of at least 2 months. It would be much harder to sneak by both of those.

      Consider what we'd have if we used your approach: Two advertising sections, both costing $20 to post in, and both open to World+Dog. The main difference is that one requires offering a discount and the other doesn't.

      That's not a WARRIOR special at that point. It's a generic discount section.

      apc01,
      which tell me that people are looking for IM products.
      DOH!

      Did you happen to catch the full name of this place? Dude, they're not here for knitting supplies.

      John,
      Shut down the WSO Forum.
      "Kill the patient. Then we can all go home and have dinner."

      Feh.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Harvey,Who are you, and what have you done with Harvey?

        Access to selling in the WSO section is supposed to "cost" in participation, not cash. I would personally be in favor of raising the required post count to 100, AND adding a time requirement for membership of at least 2 months. It would be much harder to sneak by both of those.

        Consider what we'd have if we used your approach: Two advertising sections, both costing $20 to post in, and both open to World+Dog. The main difference is that one requires offering a discount and the other doesn't.

        That's not a WARRIOR special at that point. It's a generic discount section.


        Paul
        Paul,

        But the WSOs haven't been "Special deals" in a very long time - at least most of them haven't been. And I believe that's due to the lack of strict requirements for posting them.

        I think most people who post WSOs believe a "Special deal" is about price (Only) of the product being sold, when in reality it is much more than that to me. A "Special deal" is also about the quality of a product, not simply the fact that Warriors will get a discount or first dibbs at buying a product.

        Or have I misunderstood the true meaning since I've been a member here?

        Btw, I think this can be a good start to a solution to help weed out some of the junk, and quick money grabbers:

        Access to selling in the WSO section is supposed to "cost" in participation, not cash. I would personally be in favor of raising the required post count to 100, AND adding a time requirement for membership of at least 2 months. It would be much harder to sneak by both of those.
        I thought about the probability that just mentioning the WSO forum would turn this into another debate on how it's run. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into it despite that.
        I don't think it's possible to leave out the discussion about the WSO forum at this point because most of the posting and vermin posts problems stem from the idea of gaming the forum members, WF system, and the WSO forum.

        If I contributed to leading this thread off the beaten path, I do apologize, and won't mention WSOs again.


        Mary
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        • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
          In a no doubt futile effort to help Paul move this thread back "on track" the easiest--and hardest--way to reduce trollism is provided by a message I received from John Taylor a while back:

          Don't Feed the Troll!

          Trolls just like higher life forms need food. Their food is our replies to their argumentative, provocative and generally useless musings.

          Being ignored will often lead to their demise.

          But sometimes they do raise hackles...
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      • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Harvey,Who are you, and what have you
        apc01,DOH!

        Did you happen to catch the full name of this place? Dude, they're not here for knitting supplies.
        Paul
        That is precisely my point.

        This is first and foremost a discussion forum - not a Clickbank substitute.

        But there are generally up to twice the number of people browsing WSO than the main discussion forum which suggests to me that to the majority of the people visiting finding "products" is more important than getting advice.

        Hence my suggestion that perhaps the two should be separated.

        It's like Google - as long as their is a benefit to be gained by gaming the system, there will always be those doing their utmost to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I received an email in the past week from a member here (2+ years as a member and over 2000 posts here) - giving a "fast ways to make money" freebie to his list.

      One of the ten "fast money makers"? Join the WF, make TEN posts and run a WSO. If long time members can't get the rules right - how do we expect new members to understand? This is someone who RUNS a lot of WSO's, and that person probably has a large email list, too. To his credit, he mentioned that just posting "yes" wasn't good enough!

      The rules - and the WSO section - are what they are. We choose whether to participate in it or not but we don't set the rules for it. I doubt it will disappear - but if it seriously needs adjusting, I expect Allen will take care of it.

      kay

      EDIT: Paul I agree with the "time frame as a member" and have suggested that several times as have others. A combination of contributions plus time frame would eliminate many of the worst of the bunch. Those folks don't have the patience to make 100 decent posts or to wait 60-90 days to make some "fast cash" from people here. They'd be on to other places before the time was up. Might put the "special" back into "Warrior Offers".
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        apc01, you made the comparison between the WSO section and Google results. You might be right about visibility, but there are two big differences...

        1. You really can't post links to your Google listing when it drops off the front page. You can with a WSO post.

        2. You can't pay Google to bump your listing back to the top of the first page. You can with a WSO post, as an alternative to simply posting the same offer again.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Shut down the WSO Forum.
      No, I think we've tried enough of these minor tweaks and tiny adjustments and they don't work. It's time to do something more bold and radical.
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  • Profile picture of the author Devon Brown
    I don't want to be redundant in what others have said here, Paul, FANTASTIC post. I think this happens with any large forum group though. You'll start to collect all types, sad but true. This goes for any group forum, online or offline.
    There's no real cure for any of it, just something we all must endure.

    Was anyone here when WF first opened? What was it like then? Were all those critters on then too?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Paul,

    Using your analogy the WSO Forum isn't the
    patient. The patient is a growing number of
    people who are becoming increasingly reliant
    upon Allen's hospitality as their sole source
    of income.

    There was a day when the WSO Forum was
    a great place to test offers, to get feedback
    and to ask for testimonials before launching
    to the general public.

    These days it seems that the WSO Forum has
    become the destination market and not the
    proving ground. There is a growing number of
    "Made for the WSO Forum" products appearing.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      These days it seems that the WSO Forum has
      become the destination market and not the
      proving ground. There is a growing number of
      "Made for the WSO Forum" products appearing.
      The majority now is "made for WSO". I joined when it was a proving ground and you had to check frequently just to avoid missing a great price on a new product being rolled out to the public. Many of those good offers were available for only a few hours. Some truly great deals there and good feedback on products, too.

      kay
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Renegade,
      Was anyone here when WF first opened?
      Just Allen. He said, "Let there be flames," and there was the Warrior Forum. And he looked upon it and said, "It'll do for a start. We'll get some new software later, if it all works."
      What was it like then? Were all those critters on then too?
      Mostly. The idea of Warrior Special Offers came later, so that part of the group wasn't around then. But the rest were.

      Kay,

      Can you send me a copy of that email?

      John,
      Using your analogy the WSO Forum isn't the patient. The patient is a growing number of people who are becoming increasingly reliant upon Allen's hospitality as their sole source of income.
      Not our problem. Those aren't the people screwing up the rest of the forum with one-liners and the like. The "eternal WSO" types have to already have the requisite post count.

      They also have to have at least some value to their offers, or they couldn't keep selling there.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Paul,

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Not our problem. Those aren't the people screwing up the rest of the forum with one-liners and the like. The "eternal WSO" types have to already have the requisite post count.
        I disagree. The influx of "make 30 quick
        posts followed by a WSO" are emulating
        the "build a WSO income" crowd.

        John
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    I wouldn't mind betting, that just about every devious little trick
    used to manipulate the WSO forum, has appeared in an ebook
    and sold as a WSO.

    What say we ban those sort of ebooks,
    and the people that sell them?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      I disagree. The influx of "make 30 quick posts followed by a WSO" are emulating the "build a WSO income" crowd.
      There's a difference between emulating and are.

      I thought about the probability that just mentioning the WSO forum would turn this into another debate on how it's run. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into it despite that.

      Les,
      What say we ban those sort of ebooks, and the people that sell them?
      I think something a bit more... dramatic ... would be in order for those, assuming we could pull it off.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        I thought about the probability that just mentioning the WSO forum would turn this into another debate on how it's run. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into it despite that.
        I'll see if I can hi-jack it onto a slightly different subject

        Thinking about your OP, and the critters...and also thinking back to the good ole days, I seem to remember that back then (a coupla years ago) most people were too frightened to post ridiculous stuff like many of the critters (EG regurgitators) because they'd get a guaranteed lambasting.

        I can identify two of the different aspects which I think have changed this -

        a) a certain subset arrived, and started emphasizing that everyone should be nice to everyone else all of the time in a civilised forum society. Kind of similar to how the same thing has happened in the outside world (liberalisation?). On paper, the 'be nice to everyone' statement looks wholesome and correct. But in practise it actually means that 'the bad guys' get away with murder because the most fearsome new collective in town is the 'be nice' police and their mob. (I blame J-mo and his positivity pledge that he never stuck to Not really..)

        I distinctly remember an occasion where I ripped into someone 'bigger' than me for debating purposes, and a new member threw an amateur dramatics display. It kind of started around then...

        b) in combination with a) above, a different subset who all happen to be 'bigger' than me rode this wave of must-be-niceness and used it to their advantage. And many more poorly targetted 'marketers complaining about being marketed to by marketers' accusations were used to effectively silence lively debate and discussion.

        There may be some who found some of the more explosive debates a little unsettling, but I feel that the presence of those regular flare-ups contributed a lot to stopping people from thinking that they can do what they want here and never get roasted over coals.

        If you're the type that 'visits' many different forums you'll be aware that currently certain people suggest that it's a soft-touch around here.

        Hi Mary,

        RE - WSOs being 'special' - habitual WSOers just create their WSO and then throw up a salespage with the product at a higher price, in order to qualify it as 'specially priced'. They probably never sell one from the webpage at the higher price - it's just there to qualify.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          ...and also thinking back to the good ole days, I seem to remember that back then (a coupla years ago) most people were too frightened to post ridiculous stuff like many of the critters (EG regurgitators) because they'd get a guaranteed lambasting.
          Oh shut up, Roger.






          a) a certain subset arrived, and started emphasizing that everyone should be nice to everyone else all of the time in a civilised forum society.
          Yes, and it's worse when people confuse "being mean" and "attacking" with "constructive criticism." Those who are most likely to confuse attacking with criticism are the folks who come here for validation/confirmation rather than actual help. Sometimes the ego needs to shrink a little in order for us to truly learn something.


          --

          And on another note...

          My favorite one-line wonders are the ones who stack up three to five posts in one thread, one after the other. Instead of writing a paragraph like a normal person, they start a new post for each new sentence.

          [new post]

          Know what I mean?

          [new post]

          It's annoying.

          [new post]

          Cheers,
          Becky
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          • Profile picture of the author Jillian Slack
            Yesterday I was found several one-liner posts and clicked on their member names to get a better idea of whether these were just a couple of posts that happened to be short (while the rest of their posts were significant) or if they were, essentially, posting nothing but one-liners.

            What I found for two of the members' names alarmed me.

            Each had run a couple of WSOs. All of the rest of their messages were nothing but one-liners.

            So they had infiltrated our forum, posted nothing but one-liners to boost their post count, then posted WSOs to make some money off of the rest of us.

            It's just not right for ALL of your posts, except for your WSOs, to be one-liners and useless posts that don't contribute to the conversation.

            Grrrr!
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          ...
          If you're the type that 'visits' many different forums you'll be aware that currently certain people suggest that it's a soft-touch around here.
          ...
          so so so true.... I put on my ballerina slippers when posting on WF.

          Using your real identity helps in the politeness arena. ;-)
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Paul,

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I thought about the probability that just mentioning the WSO forum would turn this into another debate on how it's run. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into it despite that.
        I don't think we need to discuss "how
        it's run". But when we're discussing the
        behaviour of the groups you mention in
        your original post, the WSO Forum as a
        means of exploiting Warrior members is
        a lot to do with the motivation behind
        that behaviour.

        John
        Signature
        John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Roger, I'm glad you brought up what you just did in your last post.

          At the risk of getting myself raked over the coals right now, I'm going to
          simply speak from my heart right now...the hell with the consequences.

          I lost my mother last week and it made me realize that all of this nonsense
          is just that...nonsense. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not all that
          important.

          Having said that, I realize that this forum, any forum, needs some kind of
          hands on monitoring or it will become an absolute grounds of chaos. And
          then, nobody will want to be here but the trolls. So for that reason, I
          agree that things need to be done. I don't know what they are. I'm not
          anywhere smart enough to even try to proclaim I have even close to a
          solution to whatever problems we have here. I'll leave that to people like
          Paul Myers, John Taylor and others who have been here for a very long
          time and truly understand forum life. I do not.

          Here is what I do know, and here is where I think a big problem is and why
          I thanked Roger for saying what he did.

          I was recommended to come here by two old members. They warned me
          right up front that the Warrior Forum was very strict and that if I didn't
          behave, I would be tossed out on my ear... questions asked. And in spite
          of my fear of this place (yes, I was damn afraid) I still acted like a total
          ass on more than one occasion. Just ask Paul and Roger. It is only by the
          grace of Allen Says that I am still here.

          Problem is, I think that fear, for most people, is gone. I don't know what
          has happened but it seems that people just don't worry about being
          banned or whatever. Seems that they think they can just get another
          user name and start all over. Maybe that's true. I sure wouldn't want to.

          I joined here in December of 2006 and didn't post my first WSO until
          April 2007 and several thousand posts later. I wanted to make sure that
          I at least tried to become a part of this community, contribute and gain
          some trust. And even with that, I screwed up plenty and failed miserably
          on many counts. I can look in the mirror and admit that now because
          in the grand scheme of things, it isn't such a horrible thing for me to do.

          Trouble is, most people don't want to look in the mirror. They don't care.
          If they're frowned upon, so what? Their soul purpose in life is to come
          here and take as much advantage as they can. Do you think they care
          about consequences? They don't.

          It is because of that, I am so split on this whole subject.

          Part of me wants to say, screw it...

          Turn this into a paid forum.

          Make posting a WSO meet these requirements:

          3 months membership
          Minimum 100 posts (about a post a day)
          One screw up...permanent ban. No questions asked.

          The other part of me wants to tell the people buying the WSOs to
          use a little freaking common sense and do some due diligence. If
          somebody has just posted a WSO with only 30 posts or 50 posts, use
          a little common sense. At least do some research on this person. Ask
          questions.

          The problem is, the buyers are in such a horrible state of mind because
          of the economy and their desperation to make a buck that they'll latch
          onto anything that even hints at the promise of a big pay day.

          Like I said, I'm speaking from my heart now and I don't have all the
          answers. But I give my word (it's about time I did something right around
          here so at least my mother can be proud of me) to do all that I can to
          make this a better place. If it's as simple as just reporting an inappropriate
          post, great. If it's keeping an eye on a member who seems to be building
          up post count just for the sake of posting a WSO, I'll report that to Allen.

          We each need to take a look in that mirror and make sure we like the
          face staring back at us.

          I can't fix what's gone on behind me.

          Maybe I can at least help fix what hasn't been broken yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    Excellent post Paul! Your description of the "Ghost Poster" is soooo accurate.

    I see evidence of this often in the WSO section. More and more I think people with 30 posts or so who give glowing testimonials are fake... either paid or just the wso seller disguised.

    One evening, bored to tears, I followed the ONLY $$ success claims (by testimonial) on a very popular wso (and an expensive one at that).

    I looked back at their actual past post content. Surprise: EVERY SINGLE POST prior to their big money-claiming testimonial was a one-liner , sometimes a one-worder!

    And there were a number of new warriors who represented the only dollar success claims for the wso. Imo, I think most were shills.

    I'm seeing this phenomenon more and more. I know your post was not specifically about wso's, but I do think this BS posting pattern shows up primarily/especially because of the WSO forum financial opportunity.

    I'd also agree with others that the requirements to post a wso should be raised substantially (time, posts, and costs). Then, I'll bet you will see junk posts decline.
    _____
    Bruce
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Paul -

      Just PM'd that email to you(didn't an an email address - sorry).

      kay
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author milan
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    ...The first are folks whose grasp of English is so bad that their posts are incomprehensible. I don't mean, "their grammar is off." I mean people who simply can't be understood at all...
    Paul, it's not bad English, it's a dialect of English called Bad English. :p What you described is proper Bad English.

    Oh, wanted this to be a one liner but it didn't fit....
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  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
    Experienced IM'ers can sort out the "wheat from the chaff" in WSO, but newcomers to IM visiting WSO must be ultra-confused, and if they are it is failing in its purpose.

    WF is here to help all IM'ers and the discussions certainly do, but of course its inclusion of WSO as part of the same trust implies the same standards.

    I definitely think a WSO type resource is a great resource, but it is too mixed up with WF generally.

    Of course the converse is true.

    What happens if someone comes along with a genuinely really great product of huge benefit, but doesn't want to rack up 30 posts in the forums? People don't get to see it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tenzo
      Originally Posted by apc01 View Post

      What happens if someone comes along with a genuinely really great product of huge benefit, but doesn't want to rack up 30 posts in the forums? People don't get to see it.
      Of course people can see it. There are a ton of different ways to market a product, and a bunch of marketplaces and classified sites to use. It's true that people won't see it as a Warrior Special Offer, but why should someone without an interest in being part of a community have the right to utilize a community marketing channel?

      Respectfully,
      Kevin
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      Wordpress, From Newbie to Jedi...

      Roses are planted where thorns grow,
      And on the barren heath
      Sing the honey bees.
      –”The Marriage of Heaven and Hell,” William Blake
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    I've found this thread fascinating reading, thanks Paul for starting it.

    Folks probably won't notice I don't post quite as much as I used to, a couple of reasons are that a) I'm "supposed" to be semi retired from IM, and the second (main reason) is because I got fed up of those people with their heads up their backsides thinking I was a real bitch cow for calling so called newbies out on their crappy threads.

    You get a gut reaction about these oneline wonders and its so easy to check their previous posts and see what else they have contributed. (Usually very little).

    Before you lay into someone for challenging a newbie poster folks, first check out that newbie's posting history, you may be surprised.

    Kim
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Kay,

        Thanks. I'll have a chat with him. He should damned well know better. If he doesn't yet, he will soon.

        Nathan,

        I repeat: There are technical issues involved that make your suggestion impractical at the moment.

        Roger,

        Yep. Too many people have let a bunch of whiny, soft-skinned manipulators turn the place into a children's playground, where all the hard edges and sharp corners have to be cushioned. You know... like in "real life."

        Yes, I mean the word manipulators. They play games, and quote Rule #1 out of context when they're called on them.

        The people who complain the most about direct language are the same ones who spout crap, and think their baseless opinions are worth as much as someone else's hard earned experience.

        Like the woman earlier in this thread who got pissed when I suggested, in response to her ideas which would not and cannot work, that she go and get some experience running a large forum before telling people who've done it for years how it should be handled.

        apc01,
        Hence my suggestion that perhaps the two should be separated.
        You're anonymous, you've been here a week, and you don't understand the history, purpose or tradition behind that section of the place. Those things being true, I will merely suggest that you learn more about the background here before expecting anyone to take your recommendations seriously.

        The Warrior Forum is not a collection of disparate parts, stapled together and held up by baling wire and duct tape.

        Michael,
        Using your real identity helps in the politeness arena.
        Absolutely. Even more in the truth area. I have long held that anyone whose identity isn't included in some way in their profile is to be treated as a fictional creature, and taken as seriously as one would take Popeye or Donald Duck.

        What they say may be true, may be fictional, or may simply be deluded ramblings. Doesn't matter. They're fictional.

        Tina,
        Um, since when is the purpose of the WSO section to baby sit newbies? I don't recall seeing "protection of the clueless" anywhere in the site's mission statement.
        YES!

        You tell 'em, Tina!


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          apc01,You're anonymous, you've been here a week, and you don't understand the history,
          But he's made a whole lot of posts
          in that short time Paul.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Is is feasible to add an automated "average word/line per post" feature, sort of like Clickbank gravity?

              So a one-line wonder with 30 posts would have an average of 8.26 words/1.0 lines per post and would read something like this

              30/8.25/1.0

              and WSO's couldn't be posted until it looked something like this

              50/20/3

              (50 posts with an average of 20 words and 3 lines per post).

              Failing that, how about a "health warning" placed prominently at the top of each WSO?

              Warning: before buying a WSO do your due diligence. If the seller fits this profile you should be extra cautious
              • Joined the WF in the last 3 months
              • Has less than 100 posts
              • Most of his/her posts are just one-liners
              • They have a lots of thanks but they are mainly from people who also post mostly one liners
              • Requires you to post in the WSO thread your proof of purchase
              • Requires you to send him/her a private message to get your download
              • Requires payment by Western Union or some other system where it's difficult/impossible to recover your money
              • Deals only in services for which you pay upfront and which don't yet exist (this is a controversial one, I know)
              • etc
              It kind of forces people to think about due diligence without changing the core idea of the WSO Forum.

              Allen can also remove the health warning from Warriors he trusts.

              Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Adrian Cooper
            Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

            But he's made a whole lot of posts
            in that short time Paul.
            Not even to post in WSO

            You are right though - I don't know the history. Actually I remember when Warriors was first created by Allen,and have dropped by from time to time, I figured last week it was time to make a contribution.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Les,
              But he's made a whole lot of posts in that short time Paul.
              True. I've seen a few, and they're mostly useful additions. Certainly not a lot of one-liners.

              sbucciarel,
              Excuse me but I got pissed off when I received what I perceived to be a rather rude response to my opinion.
              You chose to read it that way. If you look at what I wrote, I clearly acknowledged the good intentions behind the suggestion.

              As for participating in a lot of forums, that is very different from running one. Very different indeed. Ask any of the people who've moderated here and thought the way you do, until they got a look behind the curtain.

              We have lots of examples of people who've been warned and turned into valuable participants. Several in this thread, actually. Thing is, none of them started in the ways I'm talking about.

              The type of people I call cockroaches here are quite specific. They are pests, and they are destructive to the group as a whole. They're not just average new folks with less experience. They have precise intentions and harmful behavior. If you don't like the label, that's fine. Don't use it.

              Just don't try and make it sound like I'm bashing new folks in general. That's not going to fly.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
                  This has been in informative, interesting and thought stimulating thread.

                  ---- end of the one liner!

                  Thanks for instigating it Paul.

                  ---- end of the two liner!

                  Sorry - just being facetious - you have done a very good job here in initiating this discussion.

                  Whatever the "restrictions" on WSO posting - the higher minimun post count and the increased length of membership are probably the easiest to implement quickly, in order to stop the drive by spammers.

                  I agree with both these suggestions, but I consider that the post count should only reflect anything posted on six of the eight sub forums included under "The Warrior Forum". Exclude postings to the WSO, the WCAs.

                  Personally, I would like to see the exclusion of postings to "The Chat Room" and "Warrior Events" forming part of the "restrictions" too.

                  I have in mind a few more "restrictions" that should deter the spammers, scammers and those who drag down the reputation of this forum. These though may have a financial cost to implement them. At past 2:30AM here however, I'll keep them for another day.

                  Just my few thoughts on this important topic.

                  Regards,
                  Jeff Henshaw.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Like the woman earlier in this thread who got pissed when I suggested, in response to her ideas which would not and cannot work, that she go and get some experience running a large forum before telling people who've done it for years how it should be handled.
          Excuse me but I got pissed off when I received what I perceived to be a rather rude response to my opinion. That's what pissed me off. In other cases, aggressive or rude posts are just deleted, so it doesn't appear that rules are applied equally.

          Secondly, you don't know me from Adam. You assume that I don't have any experience running a large forum. Actually, my suggestion to warn people rather than randomly delete posts is a function that is built into most forum software and quite simple to implement. Does it really in the long run matter to me whether or not you do? No.

          My suggestion is actually based on experience in a lot of forums. I've seen many newbies, who are casually being called cockroaches here, get a warning or two and turn around and become valuable members.

          As for exploitation of the WSO forum. If run a forum that is touted as being "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum on the Internet", do you really think it will not attract those wanting to make money from Internet Marketing. They make their posts, they pay their $20. If junk gets through the WSO, that's a malfunction of the system in place that is approving these, but these people have paid the fee to post it and someone has accepted that fee, so how is that exploitation? It's simply buying a service that is readily available.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    You know, one of the most common
    Internet Marketing "mantras" is..

    "Take action"

    In the context of this forum, taking
    action means looking out for the good
    of all.

    By not reporting the types of behaviour
    that are damaging the forum, you are
    condoning that behaviour. Thus allowing
    the "vermin" to get away with it.

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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  • Profile picture of the author Diana Lane
    Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

    Is is feasible to add an automated "average word/line per post" feature, sort of like Clickbank gravity?

    So a one-line wonder with 30 posts would have an average of 8.26 words/1.0 lines per post and would read something like this

    30/8.25/1.0

    and WSO's couldn't be posted until it looked something like this

    50/20/3

    (50 posts with an average of 20 words and 3 lines per post).

    Failing that, how about a "health warning" placed prominently at the top of each WSO?

    Warning: before buying a WSO do your due diligence. If the seller fits this profile you should be extra cautious
    • Joined the WF in the last 3 months
    • Has less than 100 posts
    • Most of his/her posts are just one-liners
    • They have a lots of thanks but they are mainly from people who also post mostly one liners
    • Requires you to post in the WSO thread your proof of purchase
    • Requires you to send him/her a private message to get your download
    • Requires payment by Western Union or some other system where it's difficult/impossible to recover your money
    • Deals only in services for which you pay upfront and which don't yet exist (this is a controversial one, I know)
    • etc
    It kind of forces people to think about due diligence without changing the core idea of the WSO Forum.

    Allen can also remove the health warning from Warriors he trusts.

    Martin
    I don't think an automated word count solution would be helpful. Few and far between though they are, I've seen genuinely useful one line posts that were probably left by someone who wanted to help but could have been too busy with actual work to bulk them up for appearance's sake. Likewise, I have seen lengthy posts (whole threads, even) that have had as much use or substance to them as dehydrated water.

    I shouldn't think Allen would want to spend his days removing health warnings from Warriors who've proved themselves trustworthy, either. We ought to be big enough and bright enough to look out for ourselves, as well as looking out for each other when appropriate. I think such warnings would give newcomers the impression that none of us know the perils of the internet and how it works, that we spend our time on here insulting each other's intelligence, and that by joining us they can expect the same.

    This is (supposed to be) a community of business people after all.
    Signature

    Plot short fiction, long fiction, even outline non-fiction * Edit the question prompts to suit your genre * Easily export text and image files for use with your word processor or Scrivener.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Diana -

      I agree. If there is any change to address the current bit of chaos it needs to be simple in order to work. Higher post limit and/or time limit - something easy to apply and enforce.


      Paul -
      I can't believe it - no duct tape? That's unAmerican. We need WF virtual duct tape for use on fingers of those who sign up and start barfing out nonsense before reading the sticky rules.

      Roger - I love the word "lambast" - always sounds like a high end text version of "barf".


      kay
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    It doesn't help when you have people who run a WSO saying, they haven't made any money until they used the WSO forum. They now only make money via the WSO, and sell telling people to follow him as it is free traffic, easy to make thousands off the forum each month.

    Also, many WSO are not special in that they give a special price to the first xx number of people. Once that number is reached, then they sell it for the same price as they have it elsewhere. If that happens then it should be removed.

    There are a group of people who launch their WSO in other places to get feedback and testimonials. They either give it away or charge a lower price for that, and you will find they get testimonials within minutes of launching their products.

    It is very easy to see those who only use the WF to sell via the WSO. Take a look at the MF and see people who normally don't post, and they either start a thread or they make comments in relevant threads, and you will find they are about to launch a new WSO. You don't see them again until they want to use the WSO again. These people also don't contribute to the forum even if their posts when they do make them are good.

    I have stopped posting for various reasons, but when I do visit I just hit the report button, it isn't worth posting any comment in the threads. Also, some people just take any decent posts and use them for their blog and articles. They might not take the post as is, but it is close enough to know where they got it from. When you know a post is going to be taken and used like that, it doesn't give people the incentive to post good quality information.
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