What if musicians took on the "Product Launch" Concept ??

109 replies
I'm working on a project for a Musician that certainly has the talent to be a house hold name (has been in the top 25 on billboard charts twice).

They have came to me with the wanting to know what to do with the change in the industry from CD's to downloads and MP3's.

They have seen a noticeable decline in CD sales, while watching a growing interest and following by fans.

Currently their internet presence is practically non-existent (yes has a website and Myspace) but nothing else.

So I was wondering what would it be like if musicians took on the concepts of the product launch formula ?

How would someone go about finding JV partners to promote the artist?

Would the concepts work in non-information product projects?

I would enjoy hearing what input my fellow warrior have on the subject~!

Thanks

Mark Riddle
#americana #bands #concept #musicians #musicians or songwriters #product launch #sarah pierce
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Several big acts have sort of done this already... advance promo of a release of exclusive content on their site only.

    I think that musicians need to figure out pay per download in short order.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I think that musicians need to figure out pay per download in short order.
      That is what they are thinking too, there seems to be a download war going on with the big names too iTunes accounting is less that spectacular

      Mark Riddle
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      Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I think that musicians need to figure out pay per download in short order.
      Coming from a guy who has lived in Nashville for 16 years and had full time a staff writing deal for 6 of them, a pro management deal, has played all the clubs on Broadway (including Tootsies, and Legends, among others...), and has also fronted more than a few concerts for major label artists... I would say YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

      Don't believe me? Easy enough:

      Call up BMI or Ascap and do a search on John A. Durham Songs, and check out some of the writers I share credits with and pub companies. People do it to look up copyrights all the time.

      With that being said; Let me share some stuff with you.

      I know quite a few #1 hit writers and record producers...and they are frickin SCAAAARED right now!

      The offline music world is in a Tornado.

      I had co-written some songs a few years ago with a hit writer by the name of Charlie Craig, we demo'd them. He decided he wanted to pitch me as an artist, took me straight into Mercury records, and sat me down right in front of Kieth Stegall (The pres. at that time).

      We played the demo's, then I played some acoustic stuff... Kieth leaned back real thoughtful and proceeded to tell me "You're good. I'll give you a 'development' deal but you're gonna have to invest 150-200k, if it's worth that to you then welcome to Mercury"

      Get this:

      I was was sitting right there being introduced by a writer who has 40 number 1 hits to his credit (several of them released by mercury itself) , and I had already played with several major acts that were actually ON the Mercury label... looks like my chances were good right?

      Wrong.

      What's my point?

      Kieth Stegall is a real good straight up kinda guy. He loves musicians and writers, and wasn't tryin to scam in anyway...

      The fact is:

      "They just don't invest in artists anymore, unless you bring either alot of money to the table (to minimize their financial risk) , or you have "American Idol" kind of publicity going for you".

      Why?

      Primarily because of the internet!

      They don't make money selling records anymore. Napster practically closed down half of music row a few years back!

      The mercury experience was around 2001. It's only gotten worse since then. I talked to Charlie a few months back about this and he was freakin out. All the record people are.

      Another example:

      I can show you a 5 song demo of mine that was co-written and produced by Brent Rowan (MAJOR producer), and has all 5 star "A" class celebrity musicians on it... Big Deal! Doesn't matter.

      Doesn't even matter that he believed in it so much that he paid for the production out of his own pocket!

      WHY?

      The record industry isn't run by the presidents of the company's it's run by the RADIO PROGRAMMERS.

      Quick Lesson: (This tells the whole record industry story in one paragraph).

      There are only about 25 song slots per day that play in rotation on a radio programmers set list, and 24 of them are usually taken by the same artists who usually have 2 hits on the charts simultaneously, meaning there's one slot left to try a newcomer, and unless he can knock one of those 12 out of their slot, he's not gonna produce enough record sales to even make back the record company's investment, let alone "profit".

      End of lesson.

      In answer to OP's question:

      Yes record companies are ignorant about internet "guerrilla" marketing, and afraid of it.

      A good, smart warrior could beat em with a warrior style product launch if he was real crafty!

      If you figure it out let me know, I have about 200 songs that I just recently got back my rights to!


      Ps. Sorry for hoggin' the thread Mark. I'm just real passionate about the subject. Hope you don't mind too much.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

        The record industry isn't run by the presidents of the company's it's run by the RADIO PROGRAMMERS.
        And increasingly, the radio programmers are anonymous people at big corporations like Clear Channel that own a ton of stations -- I think the days are gone when you could travel around the country and visit the Program Director at each individual station to pitch your new records.

        Commercial radio stations these days are as loathe to take any kind of risk on unknown artist as the record companies.
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          And increasingly, the radio programmers are anonymous people at big corporations like Clear Channel that own a ton of stations -- I think the days are gone when you could travel around the country and visit the Program Director at each individual station to pitch your new records.

          Commercial radio stations these days are as loathe to take any kind of risk on unknown artist as the record companies.
          Who listens to broadcast radio anymore anyway? They're just as much in the "headed for extinction" category as newspapers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve L
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            Who listens to broadcast radio anymore anyway? They're just as much in the "headed for extinction" category as newspapers.
            music blogs are the new "broadcasters"... simply send as many music blogs your album for free download, and tell them they can give it away to their visitors.

            i know with the music i listen to, people still buy vinyl records. so i'm planning to start a record label, selling vinyl and giving away free mp3's. if people like your music enough, they'll buy a hardcopy for their collection, buy a t-shirt, or pay to see you live.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

              music blogs are the new "broadcasters"... simply send as many music blogs your album for free download, and tell them they can give it away to their visitors.

              i know with the music i listen to, people still buy vinyl records. so i'm planning to start a record label, selling vinyl and giving away free mp3's. if people like your music enough, they'll buy a hardcopy for their collection, buy a t-shirt, or pay to see you live.
              It's kinda cool that these days that you can write your own records reviews...we couldn't do that back when I was in it. What an advantage that is...you guys are inspiring me maybe to bust out my demos now, and avenge an old dream. If we keep this thread alive some revolutionary new pieces of the puzzle may come forward. Thanks Mark.

              Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

              i like the idea of making bigger packages, to sweeten the deal, but i still feel fighting piracy is the counter intuitive way to get paid, as a musician, when it comes to music.
              (uh...he said "bigger packages" lol)

              Good thought. I have often thought that if one could afford to give away a million cds the way Bill gates did with aol, that would be the quickest way to build a huge fan base and get people hooked on your lyrics.

              That's what I mean by "warrior style marketing". They just don't think that way in the music industry...it's all alot of scarcity mindset ie; "protecting my rights, protecting my lyrics, protecting my royalties...". They try to bring that into their internet marketing, which requires the opposite mentality.

              IM is the opposite of that. If the record industry could think of "giving first" and making a person "want" to support you as we learn here at the WF...then uh... well, I guess we wouldn't have the unique opportunity that it's looking like we are starting to form here.

              Wow. This is good.
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            • Profile picture of the author maloufha
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              • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
                Originally Posted by maloufha View Post

                Question 1: Do you think people would buy hard copies, T-Shirts, and etc even if your music is instrumental relaxing music (NOT CLICHE but high quality creative relaxing music)
                I can say for sure that the demand for instrumental music far outweighs the supply on the Web. My most popular "songs" are my instrumentals. I really only started writing them because I saw that the keyword competition is much lower for "instrumental music" than for something like "new rock music" or "free mp3 downloads". That is yet another way to apply IM principals to music. But I'll never admit to writing lyrics based on keyword research - LOL!

                Originally Posted by maloufha View Post

                Question 2: Would it be possible to make the music product a service as well as a artist name brand. For example: "download these songs that are guaranteed to help your baby sleep well." And still have people saying not only "my baby sleeps great now because of this music" but also saying, "did you get that new [name of artist] album!"
                The great thing about the Web and doing it yourself is that you can brand yourself for anything and market to that niche - because people only find what they search for and care about they will know you for how they discover you in that marketing channel.

                Look at Yahoo:

                answers.yahoo.com
                mail.yahoo.com
                finance.yahoo.com
                buzz.yahoo.com

                Now apply to your music brand, for example:

                jobs.danosongs.com
                instrumentals.danosongs.com
                community.danosongs.com
                royaltyfree.danosongs.com
                threads.danosongs.com
                games.danosongs.com

                See what I mean, branding applies and works really well. Using tons of different scripts and white label apps I can build out a massive entertainment portal.

                You can build up mailing lists for each section, just like Yahoo or Google does for each of their services.
                Signature
                DanoSongs.com - Royalty Free Music for Marketing Videos

                No sign up required to try my music in your video.

                Just click to listen and download. No cost to try, only pay when you publish.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
                Originally Posted by maloufha View Post

                Question 2: Would it be possible to make the music product a service as well as a artist name brand. For example: "download these songs that are guaranteed to help your baby sleep well." And still have people saying not only "my baby sleeps great now because of this music" but also saying, "did you get that new [name of artist] album!"
                Yes its possible, there IS a ton of demand for specific types of music.

                Personally I have sold more tracks that no-one has any idea that I had anything to do with, than the stuff that is associated with me.

                One 60 minute track has has outsold by more than double than anything else I have done.

                Music niches work, go to google and search for wedding piano and the O'neill brothers dominate that market.

                The music business is still a business, no matter if you think of music as a product, or a service, it is possible to find people who want what you have.

                Mark Riddle
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                Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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          • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            Who listens to broadcast radio anymore anyway? They're just as much in the "headed for extinction" category as newspapers.
            Not true. Newspapers have a distribution issue, which is why they're having problems. Being able to turn on a $7 radio and get a signal wherever you are still trumps anything you could do online, where a computer and Internet connection is needed to receive the message.

            Not to say that broadcast radio isn't changing...
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

              Not true. Newspapers have a distribution issue, which is why they're having problems. Being able to turn on a $7 radio and get a signal wherever you are still trumps anything you could do online, where a computer and Internet connection is needed to receive the message.

              Not to say that broadcast radio isn't changing...
              Personally I prefer youtube to the radio, because I would rather pick what I like to listen to, than to have a radio stuff their demographically correct artist's down my throat. I think alot of others are feeling the same way. It's like when people quit watching the Cosby show and said "we want reality".

              Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

              Work in the music business and this stuff is already happening. In fact, a lot of the ideas for "product launch formula" are based on, or seem to be based on, music and film launches.

              Also, regarding membership sites, the music business has been doing that for 50+ years. We call it a fan club.

              Hit me up at Music Marketing [dot] com or David Hooper - Nashville, TN | Facebook for more.
              So do you write blog reviews on local bands? I checked out your site. Wasn't sure what kind of work you do. I'm interested in hearing more. Maybe we know some of the same people...
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              • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
                Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

                Personally I prefer youtube to the radio, because I would rather pick what I like to listen to, than to have a radio stuff their demographically correct artist's down my throat. I think alot of others are feeling the same way. It's like when people quit watching the Cosby show and said "we want reality".
                Agree with you that the choice is better on YouTube, but if you don't have a computer and an online connection, none of that matters. Broadcast radio is the most easily accessible media there is. $7 for a radio and you're taken care of. Not perfect, but no more imperfect than YouTube or anything else.

                Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

                So do you write blog reviews on local bands? I checked out your site. Wasn't sure what kind of work you do. I'm interested in hearing more. Maybe we know some of the same people...
                I'm a marketing guy.

                I don't write reviews, but do have a radio show where we'll get your music in front of top industry people and let them review it. Current episode is with the producer for Taylor Swift. Music Business Radio: Episode #98 - Nathan Chapman to listen.

                My Twitter page has our mailing address. Send ma a CD and I'll get you on.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                  Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

                  Agree with you that the choice is better on YouTube, but if you don't have a computer and an online connection, none of that matters. Broadcast radio is the most easily accessible media there is. $7 for a radio and you're taken care of. Not perfect, but no more imperfect than YouTube or anything else.



                  I'm a marketing guy.

                  I don't write reviews, but do have a radio show where we'll get your music in front of top industry people and let them review it. Current episode is with the producer for Taylor Swift. Music Business Radio: Episode #98 - Nathan Chapman to listen.

                  My Twitter page has our mailing address. Send ma a CD and I'll get you on.
                  Cool. I'll dig through some demos this week and find somethin' good for you!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

    They have came to me with the wanting to know what to do with the change in the industry from CD's to downloads and MP3's.

    They have seen a noticeable decline in CD sales, while watching a growing interest and following by fans.
    Is their stuff available on iTunes and other paid download sites? Are they building a list by collecting emails at gigs, as well as on their website? (They could give away a free download of a new song or something as incentive.)

    Start some kind of online fan club with a forum, get people involved.
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  • Profile picture of the author indexphp
    Of course you can apply those techniques. But the thing musicians really don't do is communicate with their fans as much as they should. So get the fans on an email list and publish something they like and will open/read. T-Shirt Hell has a great email newsletter that I just love. Look at what they are doing. It is definitely offending to some, though, so don't look at it if thats you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian Robinson
    Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

    So I was wondering what would it be like if musicians took on the concepts of the product launch formula?
    Didn't you just describe American Idol?

    (I'm not being a smart ass here. )

    American Idol promises a fantastic new product within a year. Every week they show you a snippet of what you can expect and post links to their sample product on YouTube and iTunes. They utilize JV partners like Ellen and Oprah to promote the product launch. They cross-promote past years winners in case you don't like this year's winner. Then, on launch day, they have a huge promotion and the album drops into the Top 10 on week one and goes platinum in three months.

    You and your guys are waaay behind the curve on this one.
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    • Profile picture of the author indexphp
      Originally Posted by Brian Robinson View Post

      Didn't you just describe American Idol?

      (I'm not being a smart ass here. )

      American Idol promises a fantastic new product within a year. Every week they show you a snippet of what you can expect. They utilize JV partners like Ellen and Oprah to promote the product launch. They cross-promote past years winners in case you don't like this year's winner. Then, on launch day, they have a huge promotion and the album drops into the Top 10 on week one and goes platinum in three months.

      You and your guys are waaay behind the curve on this one.
      I would say you are one of the smarter people I've seen in this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brian Robinson
        Originally Posted by Garrett Aren View Post

        I would say you are one of the smarter people I've seen in this forum.
        God bless you and please join my cult... er, religious movement.
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        • Profile picture of the author Okane
          An example of a band that already makes use of all the new technologies in their marketing concept is Nine Inch Nails. I happen to be on their mailing list and they keep sending me great exclusive stuff for free.

          www*nin*com

          As always, learning from the big guys might be a good idea.

          ...Marc...
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          signature is on holiday

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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          Originally Posted by Brian Robinson View Post

          God bless you and please join my cult... er, religious movement.
          that one made me choke...

          Mark, U2 has a great community site (free and paid). If I was to develop a site for a band, I think I would create a complete community site, rather then just an informational and product download site.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            I want to respond openly to some emails I have been getting regarding some of the statements I have made on this thread:

            1:Copyrights

            Copyrights are simple. Rather than my explaining it on this thread though, all you have to do is call BMI, SESAC, OR ASCAP. They are the three major performing rights organizations.

            They will gladly assign you a representative, who will gladly listen to your demo's give you advice and send you a full package about becoming a member. In order to receive royalties you must be a part of one of these organizations. It is the very first place to look. They will also give you all the proper forms... to establish copyrights on your songs. If you are good your representative may even refer you to some publishers and try to open a couple of doors for you. Advice: go in person and sit down with them to play your demo's to make sure they check you out. It's easy to book an appointment. No one is turned down. Most reps are well connected with publishers managers and recording industry pro's, they will be glad to help. Just dont get your feelings hurt if they are honest say "I'm gonna refer you to a better demo producer, or a vocal teacher... before we try to get into anything else" These people you can trust. They are not trying to do JV's. Their interest is in protecting you collecting royalties on your behalf. They are genuinely trying to help you.

            NEXT:

            2: Can I walk in with "MONEY" and get a deal?

            I have been asked a couple of time this question in PM's:

            You mean if I take 200k to a record company I can get in with this artist I am trying to promote?

            NO, NO, No, No!

            First of all you probably wont even get in at all unless you are referred by someone with credibility who walks you in the door.

            Secondly, if you aren't good, or at least have a "market appeal", then you can waive a MILLION dollars in their face and they still won't sign you. They have reps to protect.

            As I said, they require investment on your part alot of times NOT BECAUSE they are scamming...but rather because it's risky for them, even if they like you! Even so there are exceptions to the rule.

            I actually worked on both sides, and was in charge of reviewing demo's for awhile for a small pub company after my first writing deal expired... I reviewed thousand of demo's from all over the planet (each of which was submitted by a person who was convinced they were a star)

            I can tell you that 90% of the "talent" out there are highly deceived about their level of marketability.

            It sometimes takes money, but "Money or no Money", you still have to have a marketable act.

            THAT BEING SAID: On the other hand.

            You "can" spend money "TALENT OR NO TALENT", and use it to find a songplugger (they are all over Nashville), and pay them to walk you into a record company. It's sad, but it's a fact.

            They will gladly open a door for you, but if you walk in without a marketable act you will have wasted your money... those guys are short lived, but they DO exist.

            Let's say I have a record company and my friend calls me up and says "Hey this kid doesn't have any talent, but he DOES have 50k, I will cut you in if you let me bring him into your office and play you a few songs... maybe we can sell him some production...

            THIS IS THE MUSIC BIZ VERSION OF A "JV".

            Then alot of record execs (even legit ones) will listen to you and say: "I'll tell you what, why don't you let me produce you a better album, then we'll take it to my superiors and see if they will buy you... I think you might have a better shot, but I definitely can't get you signed based on this cheap demo... another 50k later they say okay, I'll run it by some people...

            Note: They spend 10k on some top notch musicians, create you a decent production, and pocket a 40k split. They may even convince you they are matching your 50k and that your production is costing 100k.

            How? Because most music biz "newbies" believe that it must cost at least 10k to get Garth Brooks' violinist on your track. (truth: even "A" list musicians only make about 200 per track). The guys you see playin on stage with your favorite artists only make about $250 per show usually (if that). I happen to know one of Brittney spears dancers and she only makes $200 per night.

            Anyway, back to the record producer (the "JV"):

            A month later, after you spent 50k and your record is done... you call in to the record exec., and they say "Yeah I tried my best and they loved you, they thought our production was better than Garth, but unfortunately we have too many artists on the roster at this time... maybe if we try again in six months...they really did dig your sound though..."

            Yeah, that happens all the time. Sorry.

            You have to remember they make their living producing. A record execs career doesn't last long so they take advantage and make as much money as possible while they can, mostly by selling production deals to the wanna be's that come in looking for a deal.

            Somebody is inevitably gonna pop up on this thread and say "I'm sure that happens but it's not really the rule...those are just bad apples..."

            WRONG! It's the rule!

            If you don't trust me on it, then you will be back on this thread apologizing and saying "I stand corrected" 100k later. That's the way it works. It's nature, they produce for a living, and they want to make as much money as they can.

            You have to understand; unless that exec signs a Garth Brooks, chances are they won't be an exec at that company for more than a year or two, and then nobody will pay big money to be produced by them anymore. Even if they "DO" sign a Garth Brooks, they still do it, because 2 years down the road garth is gonna find another producer anyway, when he wants to change his sound.


            They SMARTLY make their money while they are in demand, much of it from the "wanna be" market, and are always sure to not leave any potential cash on the table. This doesn't make them bad, it only makes them good business men.

            The only reason "YOU" think it's bad is because you are idealistic about being a musician and you think of it as "art". If that's the case, why not give it away for free?

            Ah. You aren't "that" idealistic are you! lol

            Truth: You are going to spend it somewhere anyway, might as well get a good production. You might not get a deal, but you'll get a good album!

            BTW: IF THEY SAY "LET ME PICK YOUR SONGS" LET EM. IF YOUR EGO SAYS "I HAVE TO WRITE MY OWN SONGS" YOU ARE USUALLY IN TROUBLE. YOUR LOSS! JOIN THE OTHER 'NEAR DO WELLS' THAT NEVER MADE A DIME BUT AT LEAST CAN SAY 'I DID IT MY WAY'. IF YOU HATE COMMERCIALISM (yeah there's a whole click of commercialism haters to join in music city- all "broke"), THEN LEARN TO BE HAPPY WITH A SMALL CULT FOLLOWING.


            In my case my producers always paid for my demos instead of wanting cash, they wanted partial credit on my songs though. They ALWAYS want something. You have to pay to play no matter how you slice it.

            If someone offers to "PAY FOR YOUR PRODUCTION" to get you demo'd and then they walk you into a record company for free...chances are you have something. Still the record company might require you to help invest in your deal in some cases.


            Lastly


            "Talent" doesn't matter. "Marketability" is what matters. If their demographics say that Taylor Swift is the big thing, and you can barely sing, but you look just like Taylor Swift...you might just have a shot.

            Politics also matter. If they are a baseball fan, and your Dad is "Tug McGraw", you might get a deal. They know that they can redo your tracks a million times, punch you in and out a gazillion times,move your lines around, compress and use pitch benders... till they come up with a decent vocal track. They also know that by the end of your first tour, doing 300 shows in a year, you will be singing alot better.

            There's alot of variables.

            Let's say "You sing like Travis Tritt, but you look like Bryan White, and live like Jimmy swaggert... You are not marketable. You dont have a clear focused package.

            For instance "You look like an innocent kid, and you have a good voice but you show up wearing tight leather clothes and singing rebel songs... They are scratching thier heads...

            Example: Travis Tritt

            A: Looks like a rebel
            B: Performs Like a rebel
            C: Writes like a rebel
            D: Lives like a rebel
            E: "Is" a rebel
            F: Sweats like a wildman...
            G: Has rebel conviction all over him

            He is a focused package with "MARKET APEAL" to a specific demographic. Everything about him all comes together and delivers one focused message "Rebel"!

            Don't try to go in unless "all" of your elements are conducive to one another and you have an "appeal" for a certain niche in the market.

            That's what they mean by 'having your act "together". If they can't figure out what you are on an authentic level, then niether will their audience. They have to be able to market you to a niche. Don't go in saying "you should sign me because I can play any style you want...NO. Go in with conviction about a certain style that is "YOU' all the way to bone. Everything about you should SCREAM that style.

            Hope that clears some things up.

            Ps. If you are "incorrigible" and want to make a professional album that sounds like the Radio and has all "a" class musicians and producers on it. Then PM me, I will be glad to hook you up

            Who knows, you might just be the one who breaks through! It happens everyday!

            Your best bet is to make a decent record that represents what you love, and market it on the internet independently!

            Regards,
            John Durham
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
      Originally Posted by Brian Robinson View Post

      You and your guys are waaay behind the curve on this one.
      Yes that's why I am asking Great illustration ~!

      Hmmm maybe a paid Fan Membership site

      Mark Riddle
      Signature
      Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Taylor
        Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

        Hmmm maybe a paid Fan Membership site
        I know you're joking, but this wouldn't work for a musician's entertainment site. Fans already expect free access...just look at music piracy.

        For a musician site, you have to publish a blog. Twitter. Facebook.

        Have plenty of fresh video, podcasts of practice sessions, have the singer talk about what the lyrics mean, what was going on during recording sessions and concerts, and post tons of pics to a photo gallery.

        Real fans spend lots of time poring over all this stuff because that's what fans do. They absorb as much as they can when it comes to their favorite group. And the more they do it, the more invested they are in that group. But if you have a half empty website, there's no center of gravity...no place they can call their own.

        As far as making money...sell schwag. Bumper stickers, key chains, T-shirts, flags, CDs, DVDs, photo books (there are some online companies that will take your online photo submissions and turn them into a book), posters, trading cards, and other memorabilia.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve L
          Originally Posted by Michael Taylor View Post

          I know you're joking, but this wouldn't work for a musician's entertainment site. Fans already expect free access...just look at music piracy.

          For a musician site, you have to publish a blog. Twitter. Facebook.

          Have plenty of fresh video, podcasts of practice sessions, have the singer talk about what the lyrics mean, what was going on during recording sessions and concerts, and post tons of pics to a photo gallery.

          Real fans spend lots of time poring over all this stuff because that's what fans do. They absorb as much as they can when it comes to their favorite group. And the more they do it, the more invested they are in that group. But if you have a half empty website, there's no center of gravity...no place they can call their own.

          As far as making money...sell schwag. Bumper stickers, key chains, T-shirts, flags, CDs, DVDs, photo books (there are some online companies that will take your online photo submissions and turn them into a book), posters, trading cards, and other memorabilia.
          your dead on!
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        • Profile picture of the author Ian McElroy
          Originally Posted by Michael Taylor View Post

          I know you're joking, but this wouldn't work for a musician's entertainment site. Fans already expect free access...just look at music piracy.

          For a musician site, you have to publish a blog. Twitter. Facebook.

          Have plenty of fresh video, podcasts of practice sessions, have the singer talk about what the lyrics mean, what was going on during recording sessions and concerts, and post tons of pics to a photo gallery.

          Real fans spend lots of time poring over all this stuff because that's what fans do. They absorb as much as they can when it comes to their favorite group. And the more they do it, the more invested they are in that group. But if you have a half empty website, there's no center of gravity...no place they can call their own.

          As far as making money...sell schwag. Bumper stickers, key chains, T-shirts, flags, CDs, DVDs, photo books (there are some online companies that will take your online photo submissions and turn them into a book), posters, trading cards, and other memorabilia.
          I totally agree!

          The band has to provide something to the listener other than the song itself. A song can be downloaded, but offer a limited edition anything and they will buy it. Kind of like a prestige thing.

          There is a certain honor in being able to produce a CD of a band that has the graphics on it, proving that you did indeed buy it.

          Give them a reason to buy it rather than just download it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
    The music industry has been "launching" artists forever

    In fact, some of my mentors were modeling rock gig launches in the marketing world even before product launches became a common thing.

    Anyway, check out what Trent Reznor has to say about marketing yourself as an independent artist:

    Digg Dialogg - Trent Reznor
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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Clifford
    Mark

    This is my field of expertise - you may want to PM me.

    Ian
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    Ian Clifford

    http://www.makeitinmusic.com
    ...the ultimate resource to help you succeed in the music business...

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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Root
    In my opinion the whole product launch formula originally came from the music world and I have been saying this for many many years now.

    How do record companies release new albums?
    They first give a pre-content to radio stations for playing.
    Then single hits the stores.
    Band gives interviews how this is the best album they have ever made.
    Record is released.
    Band goes to promotion tour.
    And they did this already for the Beatles for example...

    So it's nothing new. Internet has made it possible to do a little bit more one-on-one promotion with pre-content. Just few weeks back Placebo sent exclusive listening link to their in-house mailing list for their new album before it was released.

    That's one thing I think Jeff didn't explain properly in his PLF1 & PLF2 and that's "promotion tour". Basically PLF ends to the launch week and then your marketing efforts are the promotion tour. But he never says it and I think that's the reason why many products that try to use PLF fail because they don't understand the whole big picture and where PLF starts, where it ends and so on.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
      Originally Posted by Stephen Root View Post

      That's one thing I think Jeff didn't explain properly in his PLF1 & PLF2 and that's "promotion tour". Basically PLF ends to the launch week and then your marketing efforts are the promotion tour. But he never says it and I think that's the reason why many products that try to use PLF fail because they don't understand the whole big picture and where PLF starts, where it ends and so on.
      Stephen, I was thinking the same thing, but with the problems in the media and traditional music marketing and the concept that the real product (CDs) is dropping in sales across the board.

      Its like setting up to sell a entry e-book without having the back end to make it work.

      Mark Riddle
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        I have thought and brainstormed with people about marketing them in truck stops where the buyers arent on the internet much.

        Once again the prob is people can get music for free on the internet.

        I think the money is in putting up sites for musicians where they can market themselves to industry people. Even if they havent got a chance hardly, they will still take that slim chance and do whatever it takes to get the holy grail "deal". More power to 'em. Maybe they will. The issue is that even if you get signed it's still hard to sell records.

        You can supply them with tip sheets and publisher listings... they can email publishers and exuctives with a link to their site. The only thing it lacks is a USP because there are a few other sites that do that. There are also booking agents, and multiple artist managers who need websites... there's an angle there somewhere.

        Mark if you go to music row magazine (online) you can subscribe to "row-fax" (which is also available by email to get Nashville tip sheets, there are others as well. For "rock and Pop" music, google 'song scope" ....there's a bunch of them, which will give you some ideas for getting industry excecs to a site.

        You have probably already checked this out but if not, then here is your big "muscian launch competitor" online: http://www.taxi.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
          Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

          I have thought and brainstormed with people about marketing them in truck stops where the buyers aren't on the internet much.

          Once again the prob is people can get music for free on the internet.

          There are also booking agents, and multiple artist managers who need websites... there's an angle there somewhere.
          John,

          Its clear you have been thinking this through, this is the kind of info that makes the Warrior forum so amazing.

          Mark Riddle
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

            John,

            Its clear you have been thinking this through, this is the kind of info that makes the Warrior forum so amazing.

            Mark Riddle
            I dont think I'm gonna enter that Market, but I have alot of thoughts about it, and it's fun brainstorming with you. I edited the post above with a link in case you missed it.

            Here's another reliable tip sheet: http://www.songtipsheet.com/
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          • Profile picture of the author TheRealDomainer
            Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

            John,

            Its clear you have been thinking this through, this is the kind of info that makes the Warrior forum so amazing.

            Mark Riddle
            Explicitly correct!
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      • Profile picture of the author Stephen Root
        Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

        Stephen, I was thinking the same thing, but with the problems in the media and traditional music marketing and the concept that the real product (CDs) is dropping in sales across the board.

        Its like setting up to sell a entry e-book without having the back end to make it work.
        There's kinda backend and it's previous records. So depending on the band, they can have quite large backend. It's a different thing if it gets promotion at all. They should try to sell the old records on the webpage at least.
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  • Profile picture of the author pgesystems
    Teasers have been released in the music industry since the inception of radio. Radio and then Video stations have received pre-release copies of singles from an upcoming album for airplay. This then drives sales once the release date comes about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    i've been dealing with this "problem" of piracy for a couple years now, and i've come to the conclusion that it's futile to try and fight people from downloading/sharing mp3's of your music.

    embrace piracy, and see your music reach more people than you ever thought possible. money just comes with fame if you're a musician that can perform live. look into how much $ some of the biggest touring acts make on just one tour. even if the rolling stones never saw a penny from the sale of their records, they would be millionaires today based off how much they made just on their last tour.

    also, would any of today's most popular bands be where they're at today without file sharing (aka piracy)?

    as far as being a "recording artist" and making tons of money strictly from selling records, I feel, it's fleeting very fast, if not already gone!
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  • Profile picture of the author James Seward
    Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

    So I was wondering what would it be like if musicians took on the concepts of the product launch formula ?

    How would someone go about finding JV partners to promote the artist?

    Would the concepts work in non-information product projects?


    Mark Riddle
    Hi Mark

    I definetely think that it would work! Actually I think that product launches and internet marketing principles can be applied to anything. What you could do to increase CD sales was for example (this is what I would do):

    1. Build a website to the artist and include bio, singles to be downloaded and that kind of stuff;
    2. Announce that the artist would be realeasing a new album (considering that the artist just finished a new album) and then do as much promotion as you can to that (pre-selling the album), press releases, articles on specific keywords, interviews, radio interviews and all sorts of promotion.
    3. Then close to the album coming out announce that the first, let's say, 1000 people (depending on the scale of the artist) will get a collector's edition of the cd or a special offer or some sort of bonuses, like a tshirt, or a signed cd by the artist, or whatever you think it fits. This will separate regular fans from those hardcore fans, as they will definetely want to get the bonuses and so the cd first.

    As for JV partners, hmm, i have to think a little more about this. But what about big commercial surfaces? Why not make a contract with a big store that sells cd's and offer some kind of bonuses (again) to the people that buy the cd there? This way more people would be attracted to buy the cd there and not elsewhere. It is a win-win situation: you get the sales and the store gets them too.

    Anyway these are some random thoughs. Hope it helps.

    Best
    James
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      Originally Posted by James Seward View Post

      Hi Mark

      I definetely think that it would work! Actually I think that product launches and internet marketing principles can be applied to anything. What you could do to increase CD sales was for example (this is what I would do):

      1. Build a website to the artist and include bio, singles to be downloaded and that kind of stuff;
      2. Announce that the artist would be realeasing a new album (considering that the artist just finished a new album) and then do as much promotion as you can to that (pre-selling the album), press releases, articles on specific keywords, interviews, radio interviews and all sorts of promotion.
      3. Then close to the album coming out announce that the first, let's say, 1000 people (depending on the scale of the artist) will get a collector's edition of the cd or a special offer or some sort of bonuses, like a tshirt, or a signed cd by the artist, or whatever you think it fits. This will separate regular fans from those hardcore fans, as they will definetely want to get the bonuses and so the cd first.

      As for JV partners, hmm, i have to think a little more about this. But what about big commercial surfaces? Why not make a contract with a big store that sells cd's and offer some kind of bonuses (again) to the people that buy the cd there? This way more people would be attracted to buy the cd there and not elsewhere. It is a win-win situation: you get the sales and the store gets them too.

      Anyway these are some random thoughs. Hope it helps.

      Best
      James
      i like the idea of making bigger packages, to sweeten the deal, but i still feel fighting piracy is the counter intuitive way to get paid, as a musician, when it comes to music.
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  • Profile picture of the author eddiejames
    This may sound a little crazy, but take a leaf out of Miley's book; mileyworld.com

    A great and very successful example of using internet marketing and membership site concepts in the music/celebrity industry.
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    Regards,

    James (or Eddie)

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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      I signed up for a company one time that was building websites and promo packages for bands.

      They gave up because too many bands said they didn't have the budget. Bands would spend a couple of hundred quid a week on booze but wouldn't spend a quarter of that on promotion.

      Here's one strategy idea I had a while back that you might consider. I gave up on it because at the time because I was a complete newbie and had no idea about web traffic/marketing/linking but I'm looking at it again.

      Bands have a website plus profiles on Myspace, Facebook, Twitter etc to spread themselves around the net.

      Now, why should you have just one site? Why not a site for every one of your songs? The main difficulty I came across was that a lot of domain names weren't available so I just put the band name first. So you could have

      beatlesletibe dot com
      beatleshelp dot com
      beatlesheyjude dot com

      And you could put Amazon links and Adsense on each site to help defray costs.

      If you have 200 songs like kadensnga, that's a lot of branded virtual real estate you will have for $2,000 per year registration costs.

      Get some major link building campaigns set up and who knows?


      Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    Work in the music business and this stuff is already happening. In fact, a lot of the ideas for "product launch formula" are based on, or seem to be based on, music and film launches.

    Also, regarding membership sites, the music business has been doing that for 50+ years. We call it a fan club.

    Hit me up at Music Marketing [dot] com or David Hooper - Nashville, TN | Facebook for more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
      David,

      Yes I am familiar with who you are I guess I've been sorta following your stuff from the 100K a year musician ebook back when I think you were in Memphis.

      For the folks that don't know David has lots of info for the indie artist for more than just singers and bands.

      He also has info for songwriters / composers to make their mark in the Licensing side of the biz.

      Thanks for your input

      Mark Riddle

      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      Work in the music business and this stuff is already happening. In fact, a lot of the ideas for "product launch formula" are based on, or seem to be based on, music and film launches.

      Also, regarding membership sites, the music business has been doing that for 50+ years. We call it a fan club.

      Hit me up at Music Marketing [dot] com or David Hooper - Nashville, TN | Facebook for more.
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    • Profile picture of the author ideasuniversity
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      Work in the music business and this stuff is already happening. In fact, a lot of the ideas for "product launch formula" are based on, or seem to be based on, music and film launches.

      Also, regarding membership sites, the music business has been doing that for 50+ years. We call it a fan club.

      Hit me up at Music Marketing [dot] com or David Hooper - Nashville, TN | Facebook for more.
      :confused: 50 years ???
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
        Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

        interesting news... Mos Def is releasing his latest album as a t-shirt...
        That's interesting, reminds me of E Joseph Cossman (Famous for shrunken heads and the ant farm crazy) Sold spud guns to grocery chains with an endorsement from The Idaho Potato Farmers, with the concept of selling the spud gun and giving away 5 lbs of potatoes free~!

        E Joseph Cossman Quote: "Drive-in banks were established so most of the cars today could see their real owners."



        Originally Posted by ideasuniversity View Post

        :confused: 50 years ???
        Yes fan clubs are for music groups were just getting to be the craze in the 50's and ever since, the fan club concept introduced by movie execs really started with Hal Roach and an unknowned Mae West

        Mark Riddle
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve L
          This is what I've been tryin' to say:

          Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music

          According to research, those who download 'free' music are also the industry's largest audience for digital sales...





          Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music | Music | guardian.co.uk
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
            Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

            This is what I've been tryin' to say:
            Steve, thanks for the post.

            The more I study this subject, the more logical it becomes to still offer cd's for sale for those who want them (I think people understand there is costs involved in mailing etc)

            AND offer a lot of free content, perhaps release a "CD's" worth of music over a period of time, and then offer a CD of the music.

            Let the audience choose whats going to be on the CD by either some sort of contest, or tracking downloads etc.

            Sell Merchandise Give Music also looks like a great model to bring in revenue with those folks who don't have a huge following.

            Thanks again warriors, there is so many things that I've learned.

            It appears that most of these same methods can be applied to other markets.

            Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorlen
    I'm a fellow musician and producer as well as a internet marketer and I think your answer is in front of you. Just load and stream the song or songs on the internet and take advantage of the hits in redirect. In other words, the launch isn't about the cd or any other format anymore, its about what you do with your share of the market you develop through exposure and how you can achieve satisfaction for your fan base. Events,calender dates, sign ins, and merchandising. I hope this helps.
    Your best first start was here! Good luck myfriend.
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  • Last month a major TV series was announcing the upcoming new season. They began slowly, introducing the new characters to join the show. Then they showed some TV spots hinting the new season's hot moments (building anticipation). And so on and so forth...

    I was thinking to myself while seeing the whole thing roll in front of me: "I can't believe it, they're PLF'ing this show on me!".
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

      David, Yes I am familiar with who you are I guess I've been sorta following your stuff from the 100K a year musician ebook back when I think you were in Memphis. For the folks that don't know David has lots of info for the indie artist for more than just singers and bands.
      Ah. An "Indie" authority... Totally different circle (movement)... never gave it much thought before. Okay, well I've offered my 2 cents here. Hope some of it helps... Great thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
        John,

        Yes indeed your input is great!

        One thing your comments help confirm for me is this is information that is needed by both songwriters AND performers.

        Brings to mind that there is a much greater desire for this information,

        For me, its one thing to help one artist, but taking what I learn from this project and being able to help lots of people with it, that makes it worth the time and effort to develop these "Systems" for lack of a better term.

        Also David Hooper works with some major players too, not just indies.

        Mark Riddle


        Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

        Ah. An "Indie" authority... Totally different circle (movement)... never gave it much thought before. Okay, well I've offered my 2 cents here. Hope some of it helps... Great thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

          John,

          Yes indeed your input is great!

          One thing your comments help confirm for me is this is information that is needed by both songwriters AND performers
          Please feel free to PM anytime you want, and I will try to help in anyway I can. Your post has inspired me as well. It's a beautiful thing to work in synergistic way, and be able to help a fellow warrior. This place has been so good to me.

          Originally Posted by dndoseller View Post

          Sure it works awesome, and sometimes I think I am one of about a dozen musicians on the Web using IM tactics (see music site in sig).I have literally not seen one musician using longtail SEO. Sure lots of cheezy MP3 sites do, but no actual musicians or the labels promoting their acts.Eg, my site gets as much traffic as Sting.com! That is really sad.
          PERFECT example. That's what I'm saying. I hear people saying "oh this is old news... it's been goin on for years..." but what you are talking about "long tail seo..." and other warrior type marketing tactics - I really think most of the music industry is pretty ignorant about that, that's been my experience.

          The major companies are all doing the obvious thing ie; "Cheezy Mp3's" , "Lisitng on Amazon.com" (Amazon is great but to do it without this knowledge isn't working well for the record industry as a whole.

          They know how to throw stuff up on the internet, but they are still marketing "Offline style" with it, and wondering "why is it that this isnt working" ?

          There are wonderful exceptions like yourself though...let's not let the secrets outside of our circle yet shall we?
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          • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
            Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

            I really think most of the music industry is pretty ignorant about that, that's been my experience.

            Let's not let the secrets outside of our circle yet shall we?
            The other thing the industry is ignorant about is the massive power of P2P. In fact they want to make it go away! For my its like owning my own FM station. The trick again - keywords, but like you said that's where the secrets stop ; )
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
              Originally Posted by dndoseller View Post

              The trick again - keywords, but like you said that's where the secrets stop ; )
              I bet we could tell the suits at the labels that the secret is keywords and they would head down to the hardware store to by some new keys and write words on 'em hoping it will work.

              Mark Riddle
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              • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

                I bet we could tell the suits at the labels that the secret is keywords and they would head down to the hardware store to by some new keys and write words on 'em hoping it will work.

                Mark Riddle
                Close. Here's what they would "really" do: The would hire a $30,000 website designer who mostly works in graphic design, and they would take every peice of advice he gave them...which would be the opposite of what most warriors would say... then they'd say "I have a 30k website that was built by the best designer in town, just look at all the bells and whistles...". The mistake is that "a graphic designer does not make an internet marketer", but they would bet you $30,000. that he was the best consultant on the planet.

                Then you have the generic seo experts... sure they can rank you for a keyword, but how many times have you ranked for keyword that didnt produce a single sale? It's a synergistic blend of highly calculated elements designed to work perfectly together that that make sales happen, not just going through the motions and ranking for generic random keywords.... looks like our friend dndoseller has got it down to an exact science for "himself" and the specific goal he is trying to achieve.
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              • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
                Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

                Close. Here's what they would "really" do: The would hire a $30,000 website designer who mostly works in graphic design, and they would take every peice of advice he gave them...which would be the opposite of what most warriors would say... then they'd say "I have a 30k website that was built by the best designer in town, just look at all the bells and whistles...". The mistake is that "a graphic designer does not make an internet marketer", but they would bet you $30,000. that he was the best consultant on the planet.
                LOL, complete with flash, ajax and every other non-indexable dead end Web 2.0 face/twit/space gadget they can muster! Then drop another 30K on PPC. Lord I hope Web promotion does not come out of the act's advance.

                Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

                I bet we could tell the suits at the labels that the secret is keywords and they would head down to the hardware store to by some new keys and write words on 'em hoping it will work. Mark Riddle
                And then when you tell them the secret behind the secret is high PR do follow back-links to individual low competition, conduit keyword-optimized blog posts with an above the fold high conversion opt-in list offer...the response would be "oh yeah, our Web Designer handles that" ROTFL
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                • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                  Originally Posted by dndoseller View Post

                  LOL, complete with flash, ajax and every other non-indexable dead end Web 2.0 face/twit/space gadget they can muster! Then drop another 30K on PPC.



                  And then when you tell them the secret behind the secret is back-links to individual low competition keyword-optimized blog post pages... the response would be "oh yeah, our Web designer handles that" rolf.
                  Yup! Exactly! I don't know how to do what you do , but I do know what the record excecs are doing and it's just what is being described here. They think money can handle everything, and as long as it costs lot's of money, and it looks real flashy then it must be the "best"!

                  They think the way to compete is by looking better than everyone else.

                  I am LOVING this thread!
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        It seems to me that the money's in the "experience."

        I think Frank Kern talked about this in one of his videos for Mass Control. He talked about how he was wealthy but miserable. He mentioned he had a fancy sports car but hated his business and himself (at the time). And he wondered why he felt that way when he'd attained what he'd sought and what a lot of other people would define as success.

        But he said that the fancy car didn't turn him into whoever it was he emulated or wanted to be. So he kept trading them in for different, fancier cars. He eventually found satisfaction/happiness/contentment, or the joy in his life again (or whatever you want to call it). And he said that that's what people want: the experience, not the "thing."

        I agree that you can't really stop people from stealing/sharing music. The music industry needs a whole new business model. What about creating a fan club (membership site) and throwing in enough benefits/bonuses that make it worthwhile? Maybe use the fan club as the marketing impetus for live concerts/tours? Make every song that gets shared/stolen somehow lead back to the fan club and then the tour?

        I have no idea if that's possible or a good business model, but I DO know that:

        1. You can't stop stealing/sharing of music and the money's NOT in the CD's anymore

        As others pointed out, musicians and the music industry need a whole new mindset/mentality

        and

        2. People want the "experience." So find a way to give it to them.

        Just don't ask me how. I'm a writer, not a musician. But I do know a bit how the musicians feel since writers get hit with the same disullusioning scenario when it comes to getting their book published and onto the bestseller list.

        Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    The artist is very internet Radio friendly, that is how we got in touch with each other.

    They drove hours and hours out of their way for a interview with our music director for our internet station AND to record some live versions of the tracks for our programing.

    We have some tracks that are not released yet that is going to be part of our campaign for the station.

    We had finished all the stuff for the station and sat down and had some Good KC BBQ and just talking, that I mentioned that I help local business increase profits and retain customers. (elevator pitch always at the ready)

    The manager asked if I would consider doing that for musicians, that's when this all started ~!

    I would have never guessed that they would be interested in finding an internet marketer.

    I am always pleased and amazed at the level of talent that is here on the warrior forum !

    Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Watch what nine inch nails and bands like Mindless Self Indulgence (MSI) do.

    MSI blew up because of the 'net.

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
    Sure it works awesome, and sometimes I think I am one of about a dozen musicians on the Web using IM tactics (see music site in sig).

    I have literally not seen one musician using longtail SEO. Sure lots of cheezy MP3 sites do, but no actual musicians or the labels promoting their acts.

    Eg, my site gets as much traffic as Sting.com! That is really sad.

    I use every trick in the book - blogging, seo, grow a list, articles, directories, blog commenting, etc. and it works very, very well.

    The key is, like your client mentioned, I don't even bother monetizing with my CD, that is a losing game.

    In fact I have had over 50,000 downloads of my tracks on p2p, and the direct traffic growth I have gotten is much better that I thought my own little site could get.

    I also give the music away royalty free if the user links to my site. Tons of free, high quality back-links.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      Originally Posted by dndoseller View Post

      Sure it works awesome, and sometimes I think I am one of about a dozen musicians on the Web using IM tactics (see music site in sig).

      I have literally not seen one musician using longtail SEO. Sure lots of cheezy MP3 sites do, but no actual musicians or the labels promoting their acts.
      this is true. any band i advise, i suggest they start a blog based around their band, and talk about everything happening with their band. releases, pics of shows, etc. ALSO, i tell them not to stop there. since UPDATED content is king, i recommend they also blog about bands that they like. and of course at the end of each blog post is a call to download the main bands album for free.

      so this way they get traffic from people looking for other bands similar to theirs, and since they're updating more frequently, they'll retain more of that traffic. they're also more likely to get word of mouth traffic, because EVEN IF A VISITOR DOESN'T LIKE THEIR BANDS MUSIC, THEY MAY LIKE OTHER BANDS MENTIONED IN THE BLOG.

      sorry for shouting

      oh, and stumbleupon is GREAT for exposing music!
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris-
      Originally Posted by dndoseller View Post

      I also give the music away royalty free if the user links to my site. Tons of free, high quality back-links.
      Interesting idea, thanks!

      I might think about doing something like giving away one version and having another one there that people can pay for.

      That's sparked off lots of ideas for me, thanks


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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
        I am working with a musician right now, and we used a variation of a product launch.

        She is a very popular youtube star, with over 145K subscribers and even more loyal fans. She has toured across the US and London.

        She just released her latest album, which she produced herself. She turned down a contract from Sony so that she could control more of the things she wanted to retain about how things are done, and so far so good.

        We handle the merch side as well as the internet side for her, which includes slowly transitioning her website over, as well as an online cart that inlcudes all her merch AND digital downloads. She was, and still is, using itunes, but now we have everything on her site as well, mainly to help keep people on her site.

        She is waaay to dependent on youtube, so our goal is to not lose yt, but to slowly build up her site so that people can get everything they want there.

        Like most artists, she likes to do things her way, so this latest launch is not as good as it could be. She has a certain relationship with her fans and doesn't want to slam them with tons of offers.

        Her latest cd was launched on Feb 1st, as well as a limited number of concert shirts. We did a preorder mid january, saying all pre-orders would be signed personally, which spurred almost 1000 pre-orders.

        We then created a "Bundle" package for her that included some older cd's and a shirt, which went well, etc. The point being that the same techniques used in IM certainly do appy. Every artist is a bit different, so one has to keep in mind the artist's fans and their relationship.

        But regardless, the IM stuff we have used has done VERY well so far!! Of course we make a % of every sale, plus we print the apparel, and do the full cd/cd digi-pack creation and printing from inception right through to packaging and fulfillment. o we make $$ on both ends.

        keith
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Hoffman
    What genre of music are they?

    PM me with some more info, I might be able to help.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Back in the early nineties, when we used to daydream of the impending promise of the Internet "leveling the playing field", who knew that would actually mean bringing the whole record industry down to OUR level...

    HA!

    "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

    -- Hunter S. Thompson
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Back in the early nineties, when we used to daydream of the impending promise of the Internet "leveling the playing field", who knew that would actually mean bringing the whole record industry down to OUR level...

      HA!

      "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

      -- Hunter S. Thompson
      one of my all time favorite quotes there buddy... good ol' hunter
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  • Profile picture of the author gyar29
    Please change the title of this thread. If it's possible. I almost missed this one because I know less about the music industry then I know about nuclear physics, and I know zip about nuclear physics.

    This fount of information has been here 24 hours and has had only 380 some odd views. While there is another thread where the OP is trumpeting that they made $6500 bucks in 50 milliseconds or some such bullshit and it has almost 700 views in a lot less time.

    The info being extemporaneously thrown around in this thread is info that many of the members here need to take a gander at. Regardless of what their trying to sale.

    To bad the star rating thingy is not working. That might draw a bit more attention.

    Anyway please keep the ideas flowing. Maybe someone else will wonder in here by accident and be glad they did.

    Thanks Guys,
    Gene
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by gyar29 View Post


      This fount of information has been here 24 hours and has had only 380 some odd views. While there is another thread where the OP is trumpeting that they made $6500 bucks in 50 milliseconds or some such bullshit and it has almost 700 views in a lot less time.The info being extemporaneously thrown around in this thread is info that many of the members here need to take a gander at. Regardless of what their trying to sale.Thanks Guys,
      Gene
      Invite a bunch of bs'rs to dilute a perfectly beautiful thread? Allow it to also turn into "$6500 per 50 millisecond bullshit", and lose the concentrated value?

      That would be a pity.
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      • Profile picture of the author gyar29
        Originally Posted by kadensnga View Post

        Invite a bunch of bs'rs to dilute a perfectly beautiful thread? Allow it to also turn into "$6500 per 50 millisecond bullshit", and lose the concentrated value?

        That would be a pity.
        When you're right, you're right.

        I take the change the title stuff back.

        Gene
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      What about doing the internet marketing/offline business basics:

      Capture the names and email addresses of every fan and then let then know whenever the band has a new release, tour etc etc.

      Every major band has a base of loyal followers who will buy nearly anything they release and they certainly could order and pay online.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve L
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        What about doing the internet marketing/offline business basics:

        Capture the names and email addresses of every fan and then let then know whenever the band has a new release, tour etc etc.

        Every major band has a base of loyal followers who will buy nearly anything they release and they certainly could order and pay online.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
        no you're right, any band with a decent following will still sell some merchandise and every band should be building a list for sure... i just think it's counter productive to try and stop file sharing, and trying to SELL mp3's.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Dean
      Recently I've been speaking with the guys from the band 'Wheatus'... known for their teenage dirtbag hit.

      They were dropped from the Sony record label a few years ago, so they started their own label and since then they've been making most of their money from the net.

      They recently released a EP on their website using the donation model, which is an interesting concept. Basically, fans can pay what they want to pay. And according to the band it's been a huge success.
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas Dean
        Oh and the membership model is a good one too.

        Tom Delonge (from Blink 182, Angels and Airwaves) created a paid social networking type membership site over at modlife.com, where fans can interact with certain bands etc.

        I signed up to the Angels & Airwaves modlife site when it was first introduced, and there was plenty of other fans on there... so it's obviously a feasible model for a band with a following.
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  • Profile picture of the author milan
    What Kyle said: The music industry has been "launching" artists forever.

    I couldn't agree more, it's so obvious! Not just new artists, it applies to well known artists as well.

    The whole career of the best known bands is based around launches. New album is a product which gets launched. Records get promoted by a tour and tons of (other?) marketing activities. The launch date is known well in advance etc. etc.

    In the earlier days there was an 'institution' of a single, it died out a bit, but might rise again a bit as internet music gets track (not so album) oriented. But in reality it's all about making a new album.

    So I don't see any reason why Product Launch Formula wouldn't work. I think it would work extremely well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      Originally Posted by milan View Post

      So I don't see any reason why Product Launch Formula wouldn't work. I think it would work extremely well.
      the only problem i see though, is piracy. why is it that people are more inclined to illegally download an album of music, than they are to steal a digital info product?
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        I know the answer to this!

        It's part of human nature, actually. It's all about wanting what we can't have and doing what we're not supposed to do. People take a perverse sort of satisfaction in stealing music, mostly because they can. I think another reason is because they see artists making ungodly sums and living it up while Joe Beerbelly is living paycheck to paycheck. "Why should the famous, glamorous artist have it all while I'm struggling to pay my bills, keep my job, worry about my kids, and oh, I think my spouse is cheating on me too?" Music is a 2-3 minute bit of escapism and pirating music is a bit of revenge, both on the artist and on their own lives.

        But mostly, it's simply because they can. Simplistic and sad, but true.

        Michelle

        Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

        the only problem i see though, is piracy. why is it that people are more inclined to illegally download an album of music, than they are to steal a digital info product?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
          Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post

          I know the answer to this!

          But mostly, it's simply because they can. Simplistic and sad, but true.

          Michelle
          Yes, and the perception is that it's not really stealing because they can hear it on the radio what's the difference

          Mark Riddle
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      • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
        Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

        the only problem i see though, is piracy.
        That's only a problem if you think the product you're selling is CD's

        Smart bands have accepted people are going to download their stuff no matter what. So rather than trying to fight the tide, they release music for free... build their fan base... then make money on ticket sales, exclusive box-set type collector material, merchandise etc.

        See the interview with Nine Inch Nails' Trent Reznor I posted earlier.

        Like Dan Kennedy talked about at least 5 years ago, because of the ease of copying and distributing info products & music etc, the real money is in your core group of loyal follower... your tribe. (The top 20% of the top 20% of your customers who buy the specialized, personalized, high-ticket stuff).

        Everything else is just lead generation.
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        • Profile picture of the author maloufha
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    The music industry is coming around. There are still some people hanging on to the way things used to be done, but most of those people are now out of a job and have been replaced by people who get where things are going.

    Music Marketing [dot] com: Seth Godin on the Music Business for some good info by Seth Godin, which will give you hope. Also look up "Jim Griffin" in Google for thoughts on the subject.
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    • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      The music industry is coming around. There are still some people hanging on to the way things used to be done, but most of those people are now out of a job and have been replaced by people who get where things are going.

      Music Marketing [dot] com: Seth Godin on the Music Business for some good info by Seth Godin, which will give you hope. Also look up "Jim Griffin" in Google for thoughts on the subject.
      I am thinking that the people running companies like Live Nation are the ones who will pull through - they basically do everything - including the record as I understand it.

      How do I know? Take a look at Madonna's website traffic on Alexa before and after her deal with them - basically some people who know what there are doing took over.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
        What an amazing amount of info in this one thread ~!

        Thanks warriors !

        To Answer some PMs no its not a secret what station internet station I work with, I just didn't want that to become a focus of the thread.

        (KC Cafe Radio)

        This is for an individual artist, something that I think many more people can relate to.

        Here's an interesting news story that ties in with the discussions here.

        In Online Music Era, Country Fans Lack a Connection

        Basically it says that according to survey during CMA Festival they are finding that a large portion of their audience isn't on the internet and with traditional channels drying up, the industry is at a loss on how to survive.

        Mark Riddle
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post


          Here's an interesting news story that ties in with the discussions here.

          In Online Music Era, Country Fans Lack a Connection

          Basically it says that according to survey during CMA Festival they are finding that a large portion of their audience isn't on the internet and with traditional channels drying up, the industry is at a loss on how to survive.

          Mark Riddle
          Mark,

          That's the beauty of the internet, there's always another country to market to.

          CMC :: Country Music Channel - Requests

          The country music fan base in Australia is very internet savvy.

          My cousin in Oz

          Gemma Luxton on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

          has been using CMC a lot for promotion through Facebook and Twitter notifications. The site allows fans to request songs at certain times so for the launch of her latest single she got airtime by using her social networks.

          US country acts might consider taking part in the Tamworth festival in January 2010

          Tamworth Country Music | Tamworth Country Music Festival | Tamworth Gig Guide | Accommodation: HOME

          There is also this site

          Country Music Radio: HOME

          and in August, the Gympie Muster (country music festival)

          National Country Music Muster


          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            Mark,

            That's the beauty of the internet, there's always another country to market to.
            That is sooooo true, that is one reason they tour Italy nearly every year.

            Looks like they may want to add OZ to their list of places to tour.

            That does give me a lot more options to find fans to market too, especially if there already is a willing and able market for the music.

            Thanks for the Great Resources ~!

            Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author LilBlackDress
    This is a really interesting thread. My 19 year old daughter is a singer/songwriter. Currently she goes to Berklee, gigs with an amazing big band there etc. You can check her out at www.Myspace.com/JessicaMellott or her website www.JessicaMellott.com.

    We have learned that unless you come in with a ton of money or a huge following from something like American Idol the odds of getting signed to a major are slim. In addition we had a little experience with a major record label that taught us quite a bit and saved us a lot of learning time. The key for artists is to create a buzz and have the labels come to them ...by that time the artist may not need or want a label.

    Through actively promoting, she has gotten close to a million real plays on one site, been featured at a number of sites, works with artists whose names you would recognize and more. One thing leads to another. She is also building her list. As an affiliate marketer I am able to help her with some of this and have learned alot from the warriorforums especially about list building! And from the warrior dndoseller, thanks Dan!

    Since she is still in college (graduating a year early) she hasn't gone on tour, but we are trying to plant seeds for that possibility and build up other potential revenue streams. She really cares about her fans and has a pretty loyal following. It is really exciting to watch her career grow.

    The whole industry is crazy now, but its really interesting in that you can do so much without a label.
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  • Profile picture of the author LilBlackDress
    Definitely agree with Kyle, it's really easy for people to get the music free, so musicians often need to look for other sources of revenue streams including merchandise, touring etc.
    My singer/songwriter daughter has made a lot more selling fan merchandise than downloads.
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    Hey folks,

    I have read this thread numerous times for two reasons;

    1) The sheer amount of information
    2) I am in a band.

    I have been talking about using Internet marketing and the product launch model for ages for our band, but none of the members understand what the hell I am going on about! This thread has been really cool and I have showed it to the lead guitarist. He seems to have enjoyed the read and the discussion.

    Quite frankly this thread has re-ignited my passion for doing something online with the band. We have loads of young fans who keep messaging us asking how they can BUY our stuff. It's incredible, dozens of requests to send us money and buy our stuff.

    On our first demo we just gave our music away for free, but then quickly stopped. It was too late. Our stuff is on torrents sites and through friends and by chance, we happen to know strangers we don't even know have been downloading our stuff all over the country. I was so buzzed when I realized the power of the net and the reach our music now had. We also have close ties with some people in America because of it and have a tiny fan base there, and recieved some air time on a college radio station.

    It was pretty incredible.

    We've done a couple more recordings and e are doing some more to make a mini-album. The idea is eventually release these for sale some point this year (do I hear a xmas no.1? lol).

    I have never given too much of a crap about selling our music. I told the guys in our band that if we made one person smile and one person cry with our music, I'd feel pretty amazing about our music. We did that in the first week of our first demo (which was recorded in the first few days we got together). We have a reasonable social media presence with a few hundred to a thousand followers. We used to have many more, but we totally neglected them and have hardly done anything together recently as a band. Still, it is a source of traffic which we could quickly motivate to visit our site.

    Here's my thinking, we have songs that everyone likes and enjoys. We get requests to buy it a lot. My thinking is we take these "classic" tunes and give them all away free. They are already on torrent's sites so why not.

    I am thinking of slapping up a nicely made, personal music video of the band on a Frank Kern esque, very simple video squeeze page. When the video is done, or maybe before the video, we tell the viewers to sign up to our email list to get access to the full site nd download all our current tracks for free.

    When they get in the site, I am thinkng of using a studiopress.com template. It'll be a blog/site. We have loads of photos and videos I could put up on the site today if I wanted to. We also have a lot of written content.

    Later on, we'd "launch" the new tracks we have recorded and sell them for a cheap amount to people on our list. I think this would be a good way of branding, getting recognition and making a bit of moola. I also believe it may sky-rocket our gig bookings. Thats where the money would come in. If we got a nice list size, start selling shirts, balloons and badges. Maybe even hard copy cd's for those that want them.

    With the money we make from the sales I'd want to run a number of PPC campaigns as a test as well, or just buy some advertising.

    What do people think to this idea? I am so excited about this I haveasked my guitarist Robin to get his ass to see me so we can start work on it asap. Any constructive thoughts on this from my fellow Warriors would be most appreciated though.
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  • Profile picture of the author EndGame
    On a rather broader note:

    Radiohead did the whole "select a price you want to pay" and it worked wonders for them. They made millions and all the money went straight to their pocket. I suspect more bands and artists will do this. This highlights the importance and power of the Internet. Real talent can get recognised if the barriers to entry are just a little lower.

    Furthermore, when recording our last demo, we got talking with the studio owner who also owns a small record label. They were contacted by a London PR firm with regards to their flagship band. The deal on the table was 100k for 4-6 months promotion and they'd get some media attention a little air time and tv time for that. After that, they would need to stump up 10-20k a month to continue with the services.

    This is exactly why record labels don't like the risk, and many bands don't have this cash to invest. Many talented people get filtered out of the equation for this very reason. It's massive shame. It's actually all about who can get the most attention and media spotlight. It's a massive shame.

    But I truly believe the Internet is becoming the new media, and this wave of new technology and freedom online is going to open doors for all kinds of talent.

    Finally, to those saying that the product launch formula has been used for the music industry for years, I agree in part, but I don't think it has been applied in quite the same way the OP meant, and I also can't remember a launch that generated a lot of buzz or excitement in the marketplace, which is what the product launch method is about in part. Or so I believe anyway.

    Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Alex,

    Yes the concept of a video squeeze page is along the lines of what I am planing to do.

    I think it will be a powerful tool to get your fans attention.

    Also the concept of music on torrent sites is powerful the one thing that will be different with torrent tracks is they will be tagged with the web site address for fans more content etc in the audio.

    Also set up the ID3 tags to include band information and album graphics etc.

    Still the problem I am seeing is no reward for JV partners, which is a vial part of the launch formula.

    No $2000 package limited to "X" number of people.

    This thread has turned out to be much better than I had anticipated and I thank everyone who has posted or read this thread.

    I know warriors are the ones who will create the new marketing model for bands and musicians.

    Mark Riddle
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    • Profile picture of the author EndGame
      Mark, thanks for your reply, you've given me a semi-eureka moment here.

      Every band (including mine) has some kind of fan base. Family, friends and others who just enjoy what you do. They are from a generation which typically already have a rather large web presence (myspace, facebook, Twitter, ebay and paypal accounts).

      It strikes me that this group of people could potentially become your affiliates if you were to set it up? These people probably wouldn't be familiar with affiliate marketing or product launches and wouldn't expect 1000's. They'd be relatively motivated to let people know about you and your music anyway as they like it, but they could make a couple of dollars/quid by pasting a link to your site around their facebook's etc. It could be a way of saying thank you to the fans. Giving a little back.

      My thoughts are in their infancy so I may have all this wrong. Might be worth testing though. Perhaps if we sold our music via e-junkie. Its a shame some of the big music distributors and website merchants do not run affiliate programs. I'll have to look into this a bit I guess.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
        Originally Posted by EndGame View Post

        Every band (including mine) has some kind of fan base. Family, friends and others who just enjoy what you do.
        Yes and there are ways to reward them for doing things like bookmarking, tweeting, commenting, referring and a huge list of other promotion things that will build fans and encourage community!

        Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author ildarius
    Hey guys, sorry for high-jacking your thread, but I was given the ability to promote this band online and share the revenue from sales. I'm not much of a musician so I wanted to know:

    "What do you guys think of this band? Do you think it has what it takes?

    It would be interesting to hear from all of you and especially from kadensnga, Steve Longoria, Mark Riddle, Ian Clifford, Martin Luxton

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Market appeal and being real is the key; there are people with amazing talent that go unnoticed.

    A friend of a friend Micky was a lead singer for a regional band and had what most of us thought as amazing vocals.

    He ran across a guy from Nashville and was told if the band broke up, let him know he may have work for him in Nashville.

    As the normal run of things, bands change so he got a hold of the guy and went to Nashville.

    The guy got him a bunch of auditions for session singers, and Micky knew the moment that he heard the other people that he wasn't nearly as good of a singer that he had (and lots of others) thought !

    Long story short he didn't get hired for session work but one of the guys doing the audition also needed a backup singer for one of his touring groups and put him on the road for a number of years singing backup with various groups and tours.

    For him that was the big time compared to being a touring regional bar band.

    He asked why did he not want him to do session work but wanted him to do backup on the road.

    The promoters answer was, some people are singers and some people are performers and you see their best in front of a crowd.

    When you walk on stage people know you belong there, put you on a mic in a studio you're like a fish out of water.

    Makes you Think doesn't it

    Mark Riddle
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

      Market appeal and being real is the key; there are people with amazing talent that go unnoticed.

      A friend of a friend Micky was a lead singer for a regional band and had what most of us thought as amazing vocals.

      He ran across a guy from Nashville and was told if the band broke up, let him know he may have work for him in Nashville.

      As the normal run of things, bands change so he got a hold of the guy and went to Nashville.

      The guy got him a bunch of auditions for session singers, and Micky knew the moment that he heard the other people that he wasn't nearly as good of a singer that he had (and lots of others) thought !

      Long story short he didn't get hired for session work but one of the guys doing the audition also needed a backup singer for one of his touring groups and put him on the road for a number of years singing backup with various groups and tours.

      For him that was the big time compared to being a touring regional bar band.

      He asked why did he not want him to do session work but wanted him to do backup on the road.

      The promoters answer was, some people are singers and some people are performers and you see their best in front of a crowd.

      When you walk on stage people know you belong there, put you on a mic in a studio you're like a fish out of water.

      Makes you Think doesn't it

      Mark Riddle
      A $5,000.00 mic, running through digital recording equipment is pretty unforgiving. A crappy mic will hide alot of flaws, it's different when everything is TOTALLY CLEAR. They will take the time to fix your vocals when you are paying by the hour, or when you are a major act... but not for a "hired gun". They expect hired guns to be able to hit it the first time. They hire them for that very purpose; to get it done efficiently. So your vocals (particularly timing and pitch) have to be "perfect" to get studio work for demo singing... Also, there are alot of things that go over an audiences head when performing live because:

      A: Everyone is caught up in the moment
      B: It only runs by them once.
      C: Being slightly "off" pitch goes unnoticed over the loud music...
      D: Many times a club following is biased toward the band...

      The same thing goes for mediocre lyrics. If the beat makes em dance they think it's a great song.

      On a radio recording though:

      A: It gets played thousands of times and it doesn't go over their heads
      B: They are in a more thoughtful listening state.
      C: If one of the lyrics isn't linking up with the song they notice.
      D: If your pitch is off it won't take long for thousands of people to start saying "This guy has sucky pitch".

      Recording and playing live are two different animals. That's why, as many great live musicians as you see in Nashville...or any other music city for that matter, most producers wont let them play on their own albums. I am a great musician personally, but not NEARLY what an "A' class studio musician is. There is a HUGE difference. It's all in the nuances.

      Plus most live vocalists are used to "wetting it down" and hearing themselves that way, whereas in the studio it's all dry and they add the effects later when mixing it out. This is to make sure the vocalist is in perfect time and stays "in the pocket". When you are used to singing with delay or reverb it confuses your sense of timing to be put in a "dry" situation, especially if you are green and under pressure.
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  • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
    The problem is, in the music industry they have been pitching the wrong back end, and although they could get away with it pre-Napster 1.0, now that the model is changed they still refuse to change their back end product!

    Here's another thought:

    Mark Joyner had something in his big package, the Farewell Package, that I thought was perfect for taking advantage of people sharing: it was code that enabled people to create a "product" and then spread it, and then get paid per download as it spread virally. And each and every person that spread it could sign up and get a cut of the payday. The way it worked was, the free viral download was limited someway and created a strong desire for the "real" version, which people had to pay to get...per file. The fact it's a music file as opposed to an ebook really shouldn't matter.

    The marketplace has spoken. The end user, the buyer of everything music related, has said they are sick of paying for music. And even if they are not, piracy has been around since the 8 track tape. The RIAA, in their infinite wisdom, is making the paying customer the enemy because they fail to realize that the damages they claim that were due to piracy and Napster 1.0 were actually due to the fact that the American public was going through a recession and re-evaluating what was important to them. They want to sue, sue, sue, while the customer that likes the music has always shared the product with their friends. The music was on the radio, now it's on cable TV and can be recorded just the same as people used to record the radio.

    But they fail to realize the most important thing.

    The true product is no longer the music, it's the licensing of other items. George Lucas wrote Star Wars, and no one wanted the rights to the other stuff so he made the movie and got "stuck" with the rights to everything himself. Guess what? The majority of his profit was made off the licensed items such as the Luke Skywalker figurines and light sabors and other toys, not off the sale of the movie, even though it didn't do too bad. Turns out, for George, "stuck" wasn't so bad after all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
      Originally Posted by ahlexis View Post

      The problem is, in the music industry they have been pitching the wrong back end, and although they could get away with it pre-Napster 1.0, now that the model is changed they still refuse to change their back end product!


      But they fail to realize the most important thing.

      The true product is no longer the music, it's the licensing of other items. George Lucas wrote Star Wars, and no one wanted the rights to the other stuff so he made the movie and got "stuck" with the rights to everything himself. Guess what? The majority of his profit was made off the licensed items such as the Luke Skywalker figurines and light sabors and other toys, not off the sale of the movie, even though it didn't do too bad. Turns out, for George, "stuck" wasn't so bad after all.

      That's so true.

      The mindset of the industry didn't change with the times.
      They could have made the move to a new model slowly.

      Now it is changing by large abrupt changes that are happening with out "the industry."

      I think there will be growth, along with set backs until the "New" methods are perfected.

      I once read a report, that if "The Beetles" understood marketing the way the members of "KISS" did, they would not only have a large chunk of the music business, but also large part of the movie, television, and retailing industries.

      Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author boardbroadcast
    product launch formula no
    mass control maybe
    do something with bit torrent/ branding bugs yes definately
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  • Profile picture of the author dndoseller
    Just an example of how all the sordid details of IM apply precisely to music as well...

    My biggest traffic to my free royalty free music site is through very careful SEO (ie, Google)

    But I have realized recently that I am getting my but kicked by similar sites that use an ecommerce CMS and they have over 20,000+ pages indexed. For beginners - number of pages trumps page rank if page rank is equal. Eg, an Amazon free mp3 page with PR 1 can beat me in the SERPS even if my page has a higher rank.

    So this week I installed this game script on my site with SEO friendly URLs that will give me about 7,000 new pages. Now I have to get them indexed. After that I need to find a few more scripts to get me up to the 20,000 range - I think next I will install a music videos script that pulls YouTube videos.

    However, a social network script is my last resort. I have run social network sites before and the spam is absolutely and completely unbearable to manage. I turn commenting off on all scripts and blogs because to me that is biggest time waster invented online.

    Through sheer competitive circumstance my little personal music site will look more like an entertainment portal within the next year. I just don't have enough actual music to fill that much space so I am looking for other content that might be fun.

    The keyword spaces in music are extremely competitive, in fact that is what switched my focus from keywords "free music downloads" to "royalty free music", not that "royalty free music" is much easier to break. I didn't set out to offer music royalty free (nor did I think I would ever start a games site) - that just evolved from experimenting with keywords and checking stats.

    Anyway, my goal is to rank #1 in Google for a small set of high traffic, but not "too" competitive keywords I have picked. I've gone from page 6 to bottom of page 2 in a year...but page one is all that matters. Something like less than 5% of searchers go to page 2.

    But my real long term goal I learned here too - building my list. More traffic, more list.

    As far as monetizing like I said before, I don't even bother selling my CD. Maybe I will when I have a huge list.

    For now CPA offers convert way better than my CD! LOL
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    Just click to listen and download. No cost to try, only pay when you publish.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    The music biz is changing, and here's an update....

    Buy a CD full price now....

    Or save % when you buy at the break -or after the show AND we'll autograph it for you when you give us your email address.

    and the you got lucky bonus,

    If you got lucky and couldn't hang around for the break, email us a photo you took of the band, we'll send you a special link to by your autographed cd and still save.

    Not true numbers

    Normal concert 20 cd, with at the break promo 45 (real ratio)

    Don't know the numbers of the got lucky part, its too soon to tell.

    Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I'm not an expert, but my son has a band and I've seen some of the things they do. Like someone mentioned, simply passing clipboards around at a gig to get names and emails can be a good thing. You can grow your list and keep up with them by email and social sites. Sometimes they would offer downloads of 3-4 of the songs they played that night in exchange for emails. Kids are so wired these days that they all know what their buddies are doing and it's much easier for people to know where you play and when you release new stuff that it's scary.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Here is a follow up story saying that the large fine may spark a backlash against the recording industry.

    Damages of $1.9 million could backfire on music industry | Entertainment | Music | Reuters


    Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
    I used to run the largest dance music download store online. It was an Itunes but for DJs.

    Check out to see what Radiohead did during their transition from CDs to digital.

    They had an auction on their website where they got fans to pay what they wanted for a song. Free, .01, $10.

    The result was that they actually made more per song even with all of the free downloads than if they sold through online music stores. Best of all they generated thousands of emails, even of the people who downloaded it for free.

    It was a huge success and got a lot of press.

    - Side note- everything went digital 3-4 years ago. They're just figuring this out now?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    interesting news... Mos Def is releasing his latest album as a t-shirt... read more here:

    The Pirate's Dilemma
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
    I don't know what type of music they play, but if they appeal to the high school/college crowd this could help you.

    I had a friend in college who was in a band. They wanted to make it big. He convinced his parents to give him 1 year off from college. He promised if they didn't make it big, he would return to school.

    Their manager rented out a former fraternity house on a big college campus. They had a large party/concert in it every week and they charged at the door. They hung flyers up all around the campus every week. Stood in front of the student union handed out flyers every day. They got email addresses, sold merchandise, sold their CD's during these "house party concerts"

    They built up a fantastic fan base. The manager then leveraged this by booking them gigs at other places. Again, they sold merchandise, CD's, collected email addresses, etc...at every gig they played.

    They toured an entire summer non-stop from east coast to west coast. When they got to CA, they had built up a very large following. They got to go talk to some major record labels. The next part, is what astounds me.

    They were offered a major record deal. The catch? They would have to change up their sound/look. In return, they were going to get a huge record deal. Guess what?

    They said no. They weren't willing to "sell out" even to get a record deal. They continued playing but true to his word, he didn't make it big, at least the way his parents had defined it, so he came back to college.

    The moral of the story is, big commercial success isn't all it's cracked up to be. If they employ the guerrilla marketing type tactics outlined above, they probably won't need to get a big record deal. My friend and his band could have probably been hugely successful continuing on doing what they were doing.

    Like I said, he made a promise to his parents, and he chose to honor that. He also made a lot of money from CD/merchandise/gigs along the way. In fact, he could pay for the rest of college and still have some left with the money he made.

    A good band to check out that has a large cult following but is completely independent from any record company is The Mighty Mighty Bosstones. Emulate some of what they did/do. My friend's band also used them as an example.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    I think that the best thing to do is to setup a fan club or forum and then giveaway a song for free to build a list. He can also start building a list right now from his myspace profile by giving away a free song or something and announcing it on his profile.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Maloufha,

    The only way to know the responses to your questions is to read the thread starting with your question.

    Licensing is also an avenue for genre specific music where the artists name is not part of the promotion package.

    The common ideals through out this thread is that selling Music isn't where you can generate major revenue.

    Live performance or selling specialty items has a greater chance for income than music alone.

    It IS a question of is there enough profit and is the sales price high enough to support a marketing campaign to produce sales at the level you need to make it work.

    Mark Riddle
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  • Profile picture of the author hassanahpiano
    Hi all, I'm a musician and am contemplating different marketing methods. I am thinking about making a music membership site where people will have access to 1 gigabite of my music immediately for listening and download. It would only cost them one buck per month. Then they will have a new song every week. The cost would be one dollar per month. I need some feedback. I think people would appreciate such a site if they like the music. I also think they would stay members because its only one buck per month. However I also feel a little fear that they would all download their one gigabite and then cancel their membership thinking that they have all of my music they need and forget about the one song per week that they would be getting. Does anyone know how I can make the deal so valuable without loosing my members? Thanks so much. Please allow me to thank all of you who respond to this in advance. You guys are all so awesome and I truly appreciate the spirit of cooperation and learning that has been fostered on this site.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    HassanahPiano,

    There are several things that need to be added to this discussion to be able to give you a clear answer on what to do.

    1.) Who are you marketing to?
    2.) Ultimately what is your product?

    Are you marketing to production companies?
    Are you marketing to fans?
    Is your product music for listening?
    Is your product royalty free music?

    These all will change the what and how to get your music out to the world.

    Mark Riddle
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