Problem with WSO forum...

by WillR
63 replies
Is it just me or does having the new hello bar (advertising the Warrior Forums own offers and newsletter) at the top of all the paid forums seem a bit unfair?

I remember signatures were removed from the WSO forum many years ago for the same reason. If we are expected to pay money to list and bump our threads then I do not think it's fair the first thing people see when they hit the page is an ad from the Warrior Forum at the very top of the page.

If this continues then I won't want to send any traffic or affiliate traffic to my paid forum threads. I'd much rather list the products on my own site where I don't have to compete with the Warrior Forum for attention.

I could understand if the threads were not paid threads, but they are.

What does everyone else think?
#forum #problem #wso
  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    I actually see 2 big problems with this.

    1) As you said the its unfair that the WF now has their own ads on paid threads. Basically siphoning off traffic from the WSO's you paid for and your affiliates are sending traffic to.

    2) Even beyond that I find it very disturbing that the WF is now building a list to advertise the 'best deals'. What this means is that the WF is no longer unbiased.

    Both of these things make me like the WF just a little less now.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

      2) Even beyond that I find it very disturbing that the WF is now building a list to advertise the 'best deals'. What this means is that the WF is no longer unbiased.
      Yeah, I think previous owners stayed away from doing that for very good reason. I would think recommending certain offers removes them from being able to say they are simply an advertising platform and have no control over the offers being posted - which I think was an important distinction the old owners wanted to make. But that won't apply if the new owners themselves are promoting (in essence endorsing) certain products. It's a very fine line to walk I guess. Hopefully they have thought it all through.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    My question is what are people really signing up for? Are the best internet marketing deals every day the deals that are stickied in the WSO section? Something else? Regardless, is this some sort of implied endorsement by the forum?

    Could be a slippery slope or could be good for sellers in the long run. Too many missing details to tell. If it's all explained somewhere, please direct me to it. Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Lance,
      Regardless, is this some sort of implied endorsement by the forum?
      I doubt that, but I did see potential problems with it. If it's a paid ad, it should say so. If it's an affiliate link, that should be mentioned in future issues.


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      • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Lance,I doubt that, but I did see potential problems with it. If it's a paid ad, it should say so. If it's an affiliate link, that should be mentioned in future issues.
        I don't know about the daily mailings, but there was definitely an advertisement in the top bar for a product in the WSO section and it was using an affiliate link through WarriorPlus.

        I don't claim to be an expert in the law by any means, after all that's why people have attorneys. However, if affiliate links are going to be used on Warrior Forum to advertise, I would assume they need to have the same disclosure that other affiliates have to use to stay in compliance with FTC regulations.

        I may be completely wrong about that since Freelancer.com is headquartered in Australia, but according to the terms of service, it looks like Warrior Forum is still registered and operated from the United States...
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      • Profile picture of the author Max Anderson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Lance,I doubt that, but I did see potential problems with it. If it's a paid ad, it should say so. If it's an affiliate link, that should be mentioned in future issues.


        Paul
        Aren´t they even legally obliged to do so :confused:
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Max,
          Aren´t they even legally obliged to do so?
          Depends on the context. Keep in mind that I am not a lawyer, and following my thinking on this is done at your own peril.

          If it's an obvious ad, I'm not sure they need to disclose an affiliate connection. For instance, the hello bar at the top of this page may not require an affiliate disclosure, unless it gives the impression of a review or endorsement.

          The banners are clearly ads.

          Anything that even looks like a review should include an affiliate note (material connection disclosure) in a prominent way. That should include all those so-called reviews in the classifieds section, since a lot of people will find them via search engines and may not notice the forum category before reading them.

          What I think is funny is the crowd that thinks posting the disclaimers in tiny grey text at the bottom of a page protects them legally. That's like shouting "Hey! I'm playing fast and loose with the law! Look at me!"

          There's no point to that stuff. People respect an open disclosure. And, in this market, they don't mind affiliate links for the most part. Bogus testimonials, yeah. But an honest affiliate link? It's all good.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Karol Z
    I believe that regardless of whether they put their ads there or not people will still use the section. This is considering that the potential to make money there is HUGE, and the percentage of people who click on those ads is minuscule.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Just wait until you pay $20 to list your offer on how to make money selling widgets, only to see the forum happen to send out a "best deals" offer that morning promoting a competitive widgets product.

    This thread is just the tip of the iceberg of issues "the prior owner" understood from years being involved in the business and developing many relationships.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
      Originally Posted by hpgoodboy View Post

      Yes, you are right.

      If a thread is paid for then no other advertising should be shown.

      Aside from that I find that bar annoying and keep it minimized whenever possible. Unfortunately when I check the forum on my phone the bar keeps popping up anyways.
      How do you minimize that bar, HP?

      Of course the annoyingness of it is just part of the problem. The bigger issue is that it does distract people from the WSO offers.

      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Just wait until you pay $20 to list your offer on how to make money selling widgets, only to see the forum happen to send out a "best deals" offer than morning promoting a competitive widgets products.

      [...]

      .
      Maybe that was why they decided to lower the WSO fees to $20... I do appreciate the lower price, but having the forum promote my competitors is indeed troublesome.

      Then again, the stickies at the top of the list of WSOs are for sale - and if you get there before they're filled up, I guess they'll sticky YOUR offer. Wondering how much it costs. So far, there wasn't one available when I checked... Does anyone know?
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      • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
        Originally Posted by wordwizard View Post

        Wondering how much it costs. So far, there wasn't one available when I checked... Does anyone know?
        The prices for "Pay to Sticky" are as follows:

        WSO - $200
        Complete Web Sites for Sale - $100
        Warrior For Hire - $100
        Web Hosting Offers - $100
        Warrior Forum Classified Ads - $100
        Wanted - Members Looking To Hire You - $100
        Affiliate Program Database - $100
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    Yeah, I agree. I'm starting to see things on this forum that may seem minor in a vacuum but when taken as a whole, are starting to turn me off slightly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alaister
      Hey guys,

      These are good points and I respect what you all are saying about advertising on the paid sections. We'll be looking to remove our advertising and promotions from there.

      What I really want to do, is improve what our WSO and paid section can offer you guys. I want to make WF "the place" to launch your IM product.

      What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
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      • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
        Maybe I just haven't noticed it if it's already here somewhere but a launch calendar, I think, would be helpful. It would allow buyers to see what products are upcoming and it would allow sellers to communicate their upcoming launches/products.

        Currently, I think most people use 3rd party sites like MunchEye and the like.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alaister
          Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

          Maybe I just haven't noticed it if it's already here somewhere but a launch calendar, I think, would be helpful. It would allow buyers to see what products are upcoming and it would allow sellers to communicate their upcoming launches/products.

          Currently, I think most people use 3rd party sites like MunchEye and the like.
          I like this idea. I'm not sure if this would work in forum format. It may need to formatted in another way.

          Do you guys think it would work in forum format?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
        Some of these changes may help in increasing overall sales and exposure because they may help in reducing the "dark side" or at least not make it so easy. It's that "dark side" that causes many people to put ALL WSOs in a bad light.

        1. Eliminate income claims.

        2. Eliminate blind copy - that's already a rule but there is still too much of it.

        3. Eliminate automated tools that violate another company's TOS such as Captcha breakers. Again there is already a rule but there are still some that get by. People are using those exact same tools to post their junk here. It's a circular problem - we are attacked but yet we let too many of these get by either in an ad or discussed in a positive light thereby increasing the chances we'll get attacked along with others.

        4. Eliminate all verified account junk. Craigslist and others are making people verify accounts because users are breaking their TOS and posting their junk in all kinds of different categories in all kinds of locations going against the original intent of the site.

        5. Eliminate all paid views or likes on FB or YT or elsewhere for the same reason as #4.

        6. Consider some kind of proof of legitimacy for WSOs besides buying a WR membership. If the WAMA thread can require proof then why can't the WSO forum? Maybe this isn't in the form of bank accounts or whatever, but maybe it is something else that can better control some of the problems. For example, someone that is part of the dark side doesn't care if their account gets banned because they'll just sign up for free for another one. Problem solved and bad behavior continues. Banning a crook that can get another account within 3 minutes is really no punishment or protection.

        Now from the company standpoint I think you'd take a hit on WSO fees in the short run. It would be too hard for many of these people to compete legitimately and so they'd stop posting here.

        However I think you'd have more happy users, less bad press, more trust, and ultimately more money coming through the pipe and that would eventually get to you in one way or another.

        Mark
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        • Profile picture of the author GlenH
          Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

          Some of these changes may help in increasing overall sales and exposure because they may help in reducing the "dark side" or at least not make it so easy. It's that "dark side" that causes many people to put ALL WSOs in a bad light.

          1. Eliminate income claims.

          2. Eliminate blind copy - that's already a rule but there is still too much of it.

          3. Eliminate automated tools that violate another company's TOS such as Captcha breakers. Again there is already a rule but there are still some that get by. People are using those exact same tools to post their junk here. It's a circular problem - we are attacked but yet we let too many of these get by either in an ad or discussed in a positive light thereby increasing the chances we'll get attacked along with others.

          4. Eliminate all verified account junk. Craigslist and others are making people verify accounts because users are breaking their TOS and posting their junk in all kinds of different categories in all kinds of locations going against the original intent of the site.

          5. Eliminate all paid views or likes on FB or YT or elsewhere for the same reason as #4.

          6. Consider some kind of proof of legitimacy for WSOs besides buying a WR membership. If the WAMA thread can require proof then why can't the WSO forum? Maybe this isn't in the form of bank accounts or whatever, but maybe it is something else that can better control some of the problems. For example, someone that is part of the dark side doesn't care if their account gets banned because they'll just sign up for free for another one. Problem solved and bad behavior continues. Banning a crook that can get another account within 3 minutes is really no punishment or protection.

          Now from the company standpoint I think you'd take a hit on WSO fees in the short run. It would be too hard for many of these people to compete legitimately and so they'd stop posting here.

          However I think you'd have more happy users, less bad press, more trust, and ultimately more money coming through the pipe and that would eventually get to you in one way or another.

          Mark
          I'm in agreement with all 6 points for improvement Mark has made.
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        • Profile picture of the author brutecky
          Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

          1. Eliminate income claims.
          This is just stupid. So if Im doing a training product for .. say WSO's .. (because I made $20,000 last year with WSO's, and no affiliates) I cant say in my ad copy, I made $20K with WSO's? Then how would anyone judge that I know how to make money with WSO's and thus am qualified to teach them how to do WSO's?
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          • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
            Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

            This is just stupid. So if Im doing a training product for .. say WSO's .. (because I made $20,000 last year with WSO's, and no affiliates) I cant say in my ad copy, I made $20K with WSO's? Then how would anyone judge that I know how to make money with WSO's and thus am qualified to teach them how to do WSO's?
            I agree. The problem, though, is that it's very difficult to vet all of the claims.
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          • Profile picture of the author GlenH
            Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

            This is just stupid. So if Im doing a training product for .. say WSO's .. (because I made $20,000 last year with WSO's, and no affiliates) I cant say in my ad copy, I made $20K with WSO's? Then how would anyone judge that I know how to make money with WSO's and thus am qualified to teach them how to do WSO's?
            For me, anyone can make all the claims they like, as long as it's only in the 'body copy' of their promotion. But not in the WSO thread title.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
        Get rid of "make $100000000000 a day" type products.

        Thinking of a number that's higher than the next guy's isn't marketing, no skill required. In fact it prevents genuine skill from shinning.

        I agree with banning all income claims, it's the only reason I don't sell WSOs.. I don't want my products being associated with a board like that.
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        • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
          Originally Posted by wolfmmiii View Post

          The prices for "Pay to Sticky" are as follows:

          WSO - $200
          Complete Web Sites for Sale - $100
          Warrior For Hire - $100
          Web Hosting Offers - $100
          Warrior Forum Classified Ads - $100
          Wanted - Members Looking To Hire You - $100
          Affiliate Program Database - $100
          Thanks, wolfmmili! Wow, getting a sticky for a WSO is quite an investment. But of course if it pays off, it'll be well worth it.

          Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

          Some of these changes may help in increasing overall sales and exposure because they may help in reducing the "dark side" or at least not make it so easy. It's that "dark side" that causes many people to put ALL WSOs in a bad light.

          1. Eliminate income claims.

          2. Eliminate blind copy - that's already a rule but there is still too much of it.

          3. Eliminate automated tools that violate another company's TOS such as Captcha breakers. Again there is already a rule but there are still some that get by. People are using those exact same tools to post their junk here. It's a circular problem - we are attacked but yet we let too many of these get by either in an ad or discussed in a positive light thereby increasing the chances we'll get attacked along with others.

          4. Eliminate all verified account junk. Craigslist and others are making people verify accounts because users are breaking their TOS and posting their junk in all kinds of different categories in all kinds of locations going against the original intent of the site.

          5. Eliminate all paid views or likes on FB or YT or elsewhere for the same reason as #4.

          6. Consider some kind of proof of legitimacy for WSOs besides buying a WR membership. If the WAMA thread can require proof then why can't the WSO forum? Maybe this isn't in the form of bank accounts or whatever, but maybe it is something else that can better control some of the problems. For example, someone that is part of the dark side doesn't care if their account gets banned because they'll just sign up for free for another one. Problem solved and bad behavior continues. Banning a crook that can get another account within 3 minutes is really no punishment or protection.

          Now from the company standpoint I think you'd take a hit on WSO fees in the short run. It would be too hard for many of these people to compete legitimately and so they'd stop posting here.

          However I think you'd have more happy users, less bad press, more trust, and ultimately more money coming through the pipe and that would eventually get to you in one way or another.

          Mark
          Unless I missed or misinterpreted something above, I would also add to disallow WSO's that require ANY violation of terms of service of other places, including Craigslist, Fiverr, Facebook, YouTube etc. (OR make them indicate that there is such a requirement in the copy so potential buyers will know what they're buying).
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      • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        ... I want to make WF "the place" to launch your IM product...
        I think you should also consider making it 'the place' to buy IM products.

        Mark Singletary made some valid points, I would like to suggest that reviews placed in the WSO by the seller can only be for the product being sold.

        Many times you see a WSO with loads of reviews about 'great product' or 'over delivered' and somebody comes along and questions the reviews and the seller says something along the lines of 'oh those reviews are for a different product I sold last year'

        This needs to stop. IMO
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        Hey guys,

        These are good points and I respect what you all are saying about advertising on the paid sections. We'll be looking to remove our advertising and promotions from there.

        What I really want to do, is improve what our WSO and paid section can offer you guys. I want to make WF "the place" to launch your IM product.

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
        Honestly, the one reason that sellers such as myself used to use the WSO forum was because of the organic traffic you used to be able to get to your offers. This dropped off massively though the last year and for that reason there is no longer any reason for us to launch inside of a forum -- no advantage to doing so.

        Another big reason was because back then Warrior Plus was the only affiliate platform we could use and it was restricted to only products being sold on this site. But now with JVZOO being the dominant platform (and it allowing self hosted launches) that reason has now gone also.

        You need to ask yourself this question. What does launching inside the WSO forum currently offer us (the vendors) that we can't do on our own domain? Until there is a very good answer to that question you'll struggle to breath the life back into the WSO forum that was once there.

        If there is no clear advantage to doing so then people won't do it. That is why all the big vendors moved away from forum launches the last 1-2 years. Lowering the listing price will only encourage the small time sellers -- not the big ones who are going to drive a ton of affiliate traffic to the forum.

        There were some recent stats released last week from one of the big launch networks in the industry that showed a huge trend the last year away from forum launches and away from cheap products to more expensive products. That's the way the market is currently heading now.

        I really can't think of anything off the top of my head that you could provide that isn't already available to us on our own domains. People much rather send traffic to their own domains so they are not promoting someone elses website. So you'd need to come up with something pretty special. But lately I've noticed the quality of vendors and offers has also deteriorated and that has also meant the bigger vendors don't want their products listed here and associated with that forum anymore.

        This is obviously just my point of view as a seller in the WSO forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        Hey guys,

        These are good points and I respect what you all are saying about advertising on the paid sections. We'll be looking to remove our advertising and promotions from there.

        What I really want to do, is improve what our WSO and paid section can offer you guys. I want to make WF "the place" to launch your IM product.

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
        Call me a purist, but it's this kind of thinking that turns me off about the WSO section. The WSO section was never intended to be a launch forum. It was intended to be a section for presenting special offers to fellow warriors. But over the years it has morphed into more of a launch platform and more recently into an affiliate driven launch platform. To me it's not a WSO without the WS part.

        I get that a lot of people make a great deal of money launching products in the WSO section and it is what it is. But that's why I don't even look at many WSOs anymore. The whole section just seems a little disingenuous based on my interpretation of the basis for WSOs.

        Also, I realize that not all (perhaps not even the majority of) WSOs fit what I described above. But enough of them do that it's not worth the hassle of trying to sort out the true WSOs.

        Sorry that didn't really answer your question. But I do applaud you for trying to obtain member feedback in order to provide the best user experience for the majority.
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        • Profile picture of the author brutecky
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          But I do applaud you for trying to obtain member feedback in order to provide the best user experience for the majority.
          Im not so sure that they are trying to get any feedback at all. This thread was started because of the 'Hello Bar', how it was showing on WSO's and how it is collecting Emails. But Alaister cleverly side tracked the issue by getting people to instead start talking about 'how to make WSO's better". It was a redirect so he does not have to address the real issue that this thread was started for.

          Now the bar seems to be off the actual WSO sales pages now which is good. But I still want to know why the Warrior forum is building a list. I also want 'best internet marketing deals' explained.

          I have launched multiple successful WSO's but I need to know exactly where the new forum owners stand before I decide to put my money into them again.

          1) Who is going to select these 'best deals' that get emailed?
          2) What is the criteria for these 'best deals' that get emailed?
          3) Does the Warrior forum intend to send this as a service, or are they trying to be an affiliate?
          4) Will the best deals ONLY be selected from WSO's or will they include other IM products sold off site?

          These are direct questions to the WF.
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          • Profile picture of the author agmccall
            Originally Posted by brutecky View Post


            1) Who is going to select these 'best deals' that get emailed?
            2) What is the criteria for these 'best deals' that get emailed?
            3) Does the Warrior forum intend to send this as a service, or are they trying to be an affiliate?
            4) Will the best deals ONLY be selected from WSO's or will they include other IM products sold off site?

            These are direct questions to the WF.
            and to add one more question. Why do the new owners of the Warrior Forum feel the need to be in direct competition with members signature links?

            al
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

              and to add one more question. Why do the new owners of the Warrior Forum feel the need to be in direct competition with members signature links?

              al
              ... as in how? You mean they have the audacity to sell stuff? Where's all the outrage against W+ and JVZoo who uses your customers as their mailing list to sell competitive products.

              I just love all these marketers here who feel they have the right to market, but someone who just paid $3M for the forum doesn't. Get over yourselves.
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              • Profile picture of the author brutecky
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                ... as in how? You mean they have the audacity to sell stuff? Where's all the outrage against W+ and JVZoo who uses your customers as their mailing list to sell competitive products.

                I just love all these marketers here who feel they have the right to market, but someone who just paid $3M for the forum doesn't. Get over yourselves.
                Come on really? Are you actually that obtuse?

                A) Many marketers dont use W+ because of this. Many marketers opt not to be a part of JVZoo's POTD promo because of this. Still other marketers choose not to use either of these services because of this.

                B) What W+ and JVZoo do have no bearing on the discussion since we are talking about the Warrior forum. Try to stick to the topic.

                C) Sure they have a right to monitize in any way they choose. But we, people who pay for WSO's or pay for banner ads are customers, as such we also have the right to decide to not bring our money, or launches, or our traffic here if we dont like the new policys.

                D) If we have the right to not bring our money, launches, traffic here because we dont like the new policy we have a perfectly legitimate right to ask for clarification of the policy's / changes.

                Seriously if you dont want to take part of the conversation then thats fine, but either way get off your high horse.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

                  Come on really? Are you actually that obtuse?

                  A) Many marketers dont use W+ because of this. Many marketers opt not to be a part of JVZoo's POTD promo because of this. Still other marketers choose not to use either of these services because of this.

                  B) What W+ and JVZoo do have no bearing on the discussion since we are talking about the Warrior forum. Try to stick to the topic.

                  C) Sure they have a right to monitize in any way they choose. But we, people who pay for WSO's or pay for banner ads are customers, as such we also have the right to decide to not bring our money, or launches, or our traffic here if we dont like the new policys.

                  D) If we have the right to not bring our money, launches, traffic here because we dont like the new policy we have a perfectly legitimate right to ask for clarification of the policy's / changes.

                  Seriously if you dont want to take part of the conversation then thats fine, but either way get off your high horse.
                  You don't get to tell me how I respond to all this whining by so called marketers. You're right ... you can list or not list ... totally up to you, but one thing is certain ... you are not calling the shots here and there's still going to be plenty of people utilizing the traffic this forum provides without worrying over every little ad or email that the new owners send out.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by brutecky View Post


                  Seriously if you dont want to take part of the conversation then thats fine, but either way get off your high horse.
                  What conversation? All I see is a bunch of whinging and the occasional conspiracy theory. I did enjoy the theory that Alistair is changing topics.

                  It looks like you have bypassed helpful feedback and went directly to crying territory. Hardly a conversation and hardly productive.

                  This isn't rocket science. You either get enough ROI to make it worth your while to advertise here or you don't. Stop when you don't. Keep doing it if you do.
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              • Profile picture of the author agmccall
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                ... as in how? You mean they have the audacity to sell stuff? Where's all the outrage against W+ and JVZoo who uses your customers as their mailing list to sell competitive products.
                I am not complaining, They can do what they want. But, from the get go they said they would keep the forum as is. And "as is" means they would be like Allen and not compete with members. I could personally care less as I never, like many here, promote anything in my signature, I was merely thinking out loud.
                I just love all these marketers here who feel they have the right to market, but someone who just paid $3M for the forum doesn't. Get over yourselves.
                Again, they can do what they want and I don't care how much they paid, they could have paid 3 billion for all I care, just be transparent. Quite a few people have been here for quite a long time. Just tell us what you plan to do, that's all.

                al
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

                  I am not complaining, They can do what they want. But, from the get go they said they would keep the forum as is. And "as is" means they would be like Allen and not compete with members. I could personally care less as I never, like many here, promote anything in my signature, I was merely thinking out loud.Again, they can do what they want and I don't care how much they paid, they could have paid 3 billion for all I care, just be transparent. Quite a few people have been here for quite a long time. Just tell us what you plan to do, that's all.

                  al

                  They didn't actually say they were going to leave it as is. They said that it would remain independent. Either way, I have a wait and see attitude about believing that. Right off the bat, they changed the WSO price (no biggie to me), they're proposing a redesign (when it's not really needed or wanted much), they sent out a promotional email in the form of a newsletter. These all suggest that they aren't going to leave it as is.

                  The problem with this type of thread and how it has evolved ... the first complaint - the Hello Bar. Ok ... it's gone now I hear. I don't see it ever because I use ghostery and no script.

                  Now these lists of questions with the subtle hint (I'm not talking about you) that "I'll take my business elsewhere" if these questions aren't answered to my satisfaction.

                  To me, that's an overbearing and somewhat rude way to get the info that you are looking for from new owners. They aren't really obliged to define their entire business plan on a public forum to the members. They don't answer to us.

                  Sooner or later all will be revealed. The best we can hope for is that the changes are something the majority of us can live with. That's not always the case with acquisitions. Some new owners really mess things up bad and people move on. All we can really do is wait and see.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Al,
                    But, from the get go they said they would keep the forum as is.
                    Could you point me to that, please? I must have missed that statement.

                    There have been numerous comments from Matt Barrie in other venues to the effect that they intended to expand on the untapped monetization potential of the forum. He made no secret of that, which is entirely appropriate. He has been quite transparent about it.

                    Come on, Al. You are way too smart to miss the implications of "acquired by a publicly traded company."

                    This forum ain't the same place it used to be. That doesn't mean the way the members relate to each other and do business has to change, but, as we say in the trade, "shift happens."

                    The shift happened in this case the instant the papers were signed. For example, Freelancer is advertising to hire 15 full-time moderators in the Philippines. That switches the mod approach from members who want to protect and improve the forum to a white collar assembly line.

                    That means faster deletion of spam, 24/7. It means people proactively looking for stuff that doesn't belong here and removing it. It means faster response times to reports and other events. That's all good. It's improvement.

                    It also means people who don't know the history, the nuances, or the significance of certain actions having access to the controls. There is no way any of those people will have the ability to properly handle disputes in sales threads, or tell the difference between a member who needs a quiet warning via PM from the troll who needs banning for a month or more. Not any time soon.

                    That's a whole other animal, and it takes more than just a set of rules to make it work. Alaister has the right kind of experience to do it. He is eminently qualified for that role, actually. There may be other people within the Freelancer structure who do as well. They deal with many of the same "he said/he said" things the mods here have dealt with.

                    It comes down to implementation, and quarantining certain functions within limited groups.

                    Even if they get it all right, and they may eventually, it's not going to be the same place. But it will still be a place where we each decide what we get from our time here.

                    Focus on what you are doing, not what they're doing. They didn't buy the place because they're fans of the forum. They bought it because they can tap that previously unexploited cash flow potential. If they do it in a way that benefits the members, they'll continue to profit from it, and so will we. If not, well, that will suck, but it's a possible outcome to be prepared for.

                    I've seen a few concrete examples of them listening to, and adjusting for, constructive criticism and well thought out arguments. The trick is to present our goals in a way that takes their goals (and legal obligations) down the same road.

                    It's not that hard. Just treat it like business, and not marking our territory.


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                    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      For example, Freelancer is advertising to hire 15 full-time moderators in the Philippines.
                      I think this will be, overall, horrible.

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                      • Profile picture of the author vickybabe
                        I majorly agree with HP

                        Add more traffic, that is the ONE and only reason we list products in the wso forum

                        Keep the traffic there, i will keep paying to launch and bump my wso's

                        Nuff said
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
          After reading some of the replies here I get the feeling, that some of the warriors want to be the only ones to sell in the WSO section.

          I still don't know what is the difference between a "quality product" and a "bad product" they both seem like crap to me. Is a "quality product" something with a great looking sales page? great hypnotizing copy? a product with alot of bonuses? Is a bad product some 13 page ebook, with no graphics or real sales copy?

          Honestly, most of the so called "quality products" are nothing more than rehashed crap that never work. Rehashed crap that the sellers never used themselves. You got people who launch new products every single week or month, do you really they think use the same rehashed methods they are selling??? Most of the crap products in the WSO section, come from people who can afford to spend thousands on great sales copy.


          The WSO section still gets loads of buyers, but some venders are pissed off, because they want to have their WSO's on the 1st page for 10 days. That is why everybody else who launches a product in the WSO section are "low quality offers"

          Someone once told me, you can't satisfy everyone, so don't even try.
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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Alaister,

        Welcome in your new capacity as Admin.

        First of all let me weigh in on the issue of the $20 WSO. THANK YOU. I think more wanted this than are speaking up. Of course the vocal "Power Sellers" want to keep the price as high as possible, even screaming for $50, $100 or more. The higher the price point the more "exclusive" the WSO section becomes. Again THANK YOU for dropping the price and PLEASE keep it that way.

        I call on all Warriors who like the new price point to say so, so the new management here will see a lot of us really like it. Paul Myers makes a great point when he says the price isn't what makes or breaks the Quality of products in the WSO forum. There is much more to it than price.

        Alaister, about your questions, "What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?"

        I appreciate that you said, "What can we do to make the WF the place to launch products?" Many Read it, "What else can we do to make the WSO forum the place to launch products?" However, that is not what you asked.

        How about a "Launch Forum?" The Warrior Product Launching Pad or something like that. I would expect you to charge either a % of sales or at least, for sure more than $20.

        As far as the WSO forum. Again, Please keep it at $20.

        What to do to improve it. Continue to enforce the current rules. Make new ones as needed. Stand back and watch how well Warriors take care of that place with a lot of help from our dedicated Mods. Just watch, you will be amazed. Did I mention, Thank You for the $20 WSO price point.

        Thanks again,

        George Wright

        Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

        Hey guys,

        These are good points and I respect what you all are saying about advertising on the paid sections. We'll be looking to remove our advertising and promotions from there.

        What I really want to do, is improve what our WSO and paid section can offer you guys. I want to make WF "the place" to launch your IM product.

        What suggestions do you guys have in regards to improving the WSO and paid thread sections to improve your sales and exposure? What else can we do to make WF the place to launch products?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nuno
    If it doesn't affect loading time in a significant way perhaps there could be a footer spot (on all non-WSO threads) where WSO titles from the last 24h are rotated. That would be amazing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Alaister,
    Do you guys think it would work in forum format?
    With appropriate controls, yes.

    It would also be an excellent use of the new WF Facebook group...


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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author brutecky
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Think shopping malls - why do competing shops lease space in the same malls? Because that's where the traffic is...everyone wins.
      Would you lease space in a shopping mall selling XYZ if the mall itself was also selling XYZ? And if the mall itself insisted in posting a sales man in front of your store handing out business cards for a different business?

      Originally Posted by Valdor Kiebach View Post

      Many times you see a WSO with loads of reviews about 'great product' or 'over delivered' and somebody comes along and questions the reviews and the seller says something along the lines of 'oh those reviews are for a different product I sold last year'

      This needs to stop. IMO
      Here is an idea see simething like that 1) Dont buy the product. 2) Write a post in the thread saying "This is why Im not going to buy your product .." Im so sick of people crying about what they dont like in the WSO section. The WSO section is a marketplace. As such the marketplace is in TOTAL control of it. Dont like the way sellers do something. Vote with your $$. Dont buy their stuff. Sellers do things because you people respond to them. Stop responding and the sellers will stop doing. Not sure why the people on here cant comprehend that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
        Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

        Here is an idea see simething like that 1) Dont buy the product. 2) Write a post in the thread saying "This is why Im not going to buy your product .."... The WSO section is a marketplace. As such the marketplace is in TOTAL control of it.
        1. I dont buy from people who do this

        2. Goes against WSO rules ' You may not debate about the sales process.' so I would get an infraction or be banned.

        The marketplace is not in TOTAL control of it, there are rules regarding many things including what can be sold and what replies can be posted in the thread by buyers and non buyers, controled by whoever owns the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Lotter
    The problem of fake/dishonest reviews and low quality WSO's can't really be managed or policed by WF any more than it already is (as far as I know). At least I can't think of a way it could be more effectively policed without a WF employee thoroughly reviewing and testing each individual WSO.

    What I tend to disregard is reviews from people who have been given review copies. I don't doubt many give honest reviews, but the law of reciprocity says that if you are given something for free, you kinda feel obliged to reciprocate with a positive review - especially if you're a newbie or even amateur who's desperate to network and make buds with the guys selling the WSO's. So I always wait for reviews from actual buyers who've bought and tested the product (though it's not fool-proof, it's at least better and I've saved a few $$ doing that). But let's say (hypothetically) the WF makes a rule saying no seller can give review copies and all reviews must be from paying customers. How do you enforce that? Making rules is one thing; making enforceable rules is quite another.

    As long as WF takes action against those making false claims on the sales pages (eg $45k per day writing one article in 2 min!), misleading buyers about what the product does, anything illegal or against TOS, or plagiarism... And I'm pretty sure WF cares enough about its reputation to tackle such things if evidence can be presented.

    It IS in the hands of the buyer at the end of the day. As WSO buyers it is on us to be responsible with our spending, know who we are buying from, exercise a little discernment and common sense, and if we decide to buy a WSO, well, that's our choice. It's a business decision, and we must be prepared to take accountability for our own decisions. Can't blame WF for our gullibility if we made a wrong choice!

    (as long as the product does what the sales pages says, that is!)
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Even beyond that I find it very disturbing that the WF is now building a list to advertise the 'best deals'.
      I missed the meaning of this the first time around. Just saw the notification about a daily list.

      This is going to have more repercussions than I think they know. Leaving aside the issues of disclosures, appearance of endorsement, and other potential legal potholes, it gets into loyalties and relationships that have been a big part of the forum's success. It could work out well in theory, but it's a hell of a minefield to be taking a stroll through this early in the game.

      And MailChimp, for these kinds of offers? One hopes they have significant contacts and influence with the folks there, or that could be a very bumpy ride.


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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Everyone seems to be doing the same old whining about the kind of products being offered and the kind of sales pages used rather than answering the question Alaister asked.

    Instead of beating that same old dead horse, why not answer the question posed in a meaningful way?

    What improvements would make the WF the ultimate place to launch IM products? As far as I know, it comes close to being the ultimate place to list IM products. I know of no other place other than ripoff pirate and black hat sites that do anything similar.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      As far as I know, it comes close to being the ultimate place to list IM products. I know of no other place other than ripoff pirate and black hat sites that do anything similar.
      My own domain does the same thing. What does the WSO forum offer over self hosted launches anymore? No real advantages. THAT is the issue and that is why it has been slowly declining the last few years.

      I really think the whole cheap price WSO thing was just a stage we went through with a struggling economy. These things happen in cycles so I'm sure it will come back around in a few years time but the trend at the moment definitely seems to be away from cheap forum launches.

      The market dictates what it wants and at the moment they are wanting higher priced, better quality products.

      That's just the way it is.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        My own domain does the same thing. What does the WSO forum offer over self hosted launches anymore? No real advantages.
        Then save yourself a lot of money and do self-hosted launches. Personally, I get good traffic from the WF.

        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        I really think the whole cheap price WSO thing was just a stage we went through with a struggling economy. These things happen in cycles so I'm sure it will come back around in a few years time but the trend at the moment definitely seems to be away from cheap forum launches.

        The market dictates what it wants and at the moment they are wanting higher priced, better quality products.
        Well, it's just a small amount of sellers here who keep tooting the same old horn over and over again. I'm sure it's been heard both by Allen and the new owners more than a few times now so if they want to implement those suggestions, they will. Although I'm not so certain that they're going to implement suggestions that will lose them money rather than increase revenue.

        As for the market dictates what the market wants, depends on what market you're talking about. Some sellers want to see a bunch of listings eliminated, higher prices, quality products (although I haven't seen any greater quality from higher priced products).

        Personally speaking, I am an informed buyer and I know how to shop. I haven't bought any products that are low quality to speak of, and I am definitely not looking for higher prices. I'm happy when I get a great product for what I consider a bargain. Who wouldn't be? If I associated high price with quality, which I don't, I'd be buying all the super guru products, which I also don't.

        Then there's the dreamer market. The market dictates what the market wants. Quite true and the dreamers have been told or heard that you can make very easy money in your pajamas without lifting a finger. That's what many are here looking for, and as long as they are here or anywhere for that matter looking for it, there will be offers that profess to provide that.

        I personally have no use for the dreamer products or the dreamer market. I don't target them at all and don't buy those types of products, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a very high demand for them... and there always will be as long as gullible, uneducated people keep swallowing the line of bull they've heard about making money online.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Some of these changes fall under "be careful what you ask for".

          Some in this thread have argued several times for HIGHER WSO fees - to keep out the junk offers (supposedly) and to improve the quality of WSOs (no proof that would happen).

          Now you can pay more and separate your WSO from the others as a sticky. The results is to create a "better than" category and that's what you wanted....right?

          I don't see the top red banner because I clicked to turn it off. I don't know how the mailing list is to be used. Is it to be any different than the Warrior+ "of the day" constant emails. Might there be another fee to have your WSO listed in a WF email to "the list"? Wouldn't that be another form of advertising?

          I understand and agree with many concerns here but I think it's naive to think a new owner would spend millions for a site and NOT move to monetize it further.


          This is going to have more repercussions than I think they know.
          Would that depend on whether the new owners offer their own plan for WSO payments and affiliates? We assume use of Warrior+, etc - but that may not be the case if the same tools for sellers and buyers are provided in house at the WF.
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          • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            but that may not be the case if the same tools for sellers and buyers are provided in house at the WF.
            I have to assume that the new owners have their eye on platforms like W+. Whether they build their own solution or buy out someone like W+, I think it's inevitable that they will bring a platform in-house. There's just too much money to be made by offering their own platform.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Doesn't look like the higher price of TV advertising has done anything to stop junk offers. As a matter of fact a certain someone who happens to be behind bars still has infomercials on late at night.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Kay,
      Would that depend on whether the new owners offer their own plan for WSO payments and affiliates? We assume use of Warrior+, etc - but that may not be the case if the same tools for sellers and buyers are provided in house at the WF.
      I wasn't assuming that at all. Adding an affiliate system in-house is a possibility that's been discussed before.

      Either way, it gets into territory that's going to be tough to navigate, and that will have broad implications. That doesn't mean it's "bad" or "good," just that it could have potentially bad fallout if it's not handled with full awareness of the factors involved.

      Tricky turf.


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      • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Tricky turf.
        Paul
        Paul I get the sense (and naturally I may be wrong) that the new owners are not really familiar with an intensive IM environment like this forum. All their previous acquisitions have been in the service industries.

        I never picked up that they used MailChimp for the mailing which is just scary because they could lose their entire database because of the affiliate marketing.

        ---------

        As far as the mailing list is concerned, Warrior +, JVZoo and all the others have been mailing our buyer's lists for years with their own affiliate links to our's and other people's products.

        We may not like it but they built up the platform, and built up the lists. I would use it in the same way if I had developed that kind of platform. It's Internet Marketing 101 - Build a List

        Di

        P.S. No offense intended Alaister
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        • Profile picture of the author George Wright
          Diana,

          I saw that when I signed up and wondered, "Has Mail Chimp Changed their TOS?"

          George Wright

          Originally Posted by DianaHeuser View Post

          Paul I get the sense (and naturally I may be wrong) that the new owners are not really familiar with an intensive IM environment like this forum. All their previous acquisitions have been in the service industries.

          I never picked up that they used MailChimp for the mailing which is just scary because they could lose their entire database because of the affiliate marketing.

          ---------

          As far as the mailing list is concerned, Warrior +, JVZoo and all the others have been mailing our buyer's lists for years with their own affiliate links to our's and other people's products.

          We may not like it but they built up the platform, and built up the lists. I would use it in the same way if I had developed that kind of platform. It's Internet Marketing 101 - Build a List

          Di

          P.S. No offense intended Alaister
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I was afraid of this kind of thing. Not the same ol.....

    Did they remove it already? I am not seeing this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    If you can list a product for 20 bucks and make lets say $200 to $5,000 back kind of instantly you will have "the place" to launch an IM product.
    This would be an interesting thing to test to see if it works. There are plenty of sources for paid advertising beyond Facebook, Google, Bing, etc.

    It would most certainly raise the price of listing a WSO as well, though that might not be such a bad thing if people are making more net sales.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author lotsofsnow
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by hpgoodboy View Post

        No, that is not what I say.

        I say a WSO should be dirt cheap and deliver in abundance. Meaning the WSO listing price.

        If it is just priced fair: then the results will be fair. Meaning WF will not be the go to place to launch.
        I hear you.

        However "dirt cheap" wouldn't be the same for everyone, especially with a global forum like this one.

        All I was aluding to was that if they invest money in paid traffic and the metrics show that they can do it and still increase their own net profit while maintaing a fair WSO listing price, then by all means do it.

        I was merely pointing out that that might not be the case. The metrics have to support it.

        RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by hpgoodboy View Post

        Meaning WF will not be the go to place to launch.
        I don't see it as a price issue. As Will said, unless the WF is bringing value such as buyers from forum traffic, the place to launch may be where you get good affiliate partners because traffic is coming from email lists or affiliate sites. The WF is just the place where the ad is listed, but the buying traffic comes elsewhere.

        (Full disclosure, HP has been a good affiliate partner of mine.)

        The "place" to launch becomes W+, or JVZoo, or anyone else able to supply affiliate partners. "Where" the sales page is located is an after thought.

        This is one reason why me, and others, have believed the WF either has to create its own "W+" system or buy one. Otherwise, although the "forum" aspect will continue, the monetization from the WSO subforum is at substantial risk.

        W+ has already moved to allow listings on other websites to cut out the forum.

        The WF has countered by directly emailing members with a product pitch and also building a separate mailing list for that purpose. Could the WF be just another affiliate but rely on a mailing list developed from forum traffic? I don't know. One problem is Allen had tons of trust and if he recommended something many bought it on that basis. New ownership does not.

        There's a lot of moving parts and no easy answers. Definitely interesting times and there may be an outcome a year from now no one anticipated.

        .
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  • Profile picture of the author l0gic
    I don't mind paying $40 again (or more) if I can make that money back with lots of eyes on my product in the forum. As it stands, that's less and less the case.
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  • Profile picture of the author briankoz
    But I still want to know why the Warrior forum is building a list.
    Probably because one of the most important and basic rules of internet marketing is to build a list.

    I have launched multiple successful WSO's but I need to know exactly where the new forum owners stand before I decide to put my money into them again.

    1) Who is going to select these 'best deals' that get emailed?
    2) What is the criteria for these 'best deals' that get emailed?
    3) Does the Warrior forum intend to send this as a service, or are they trying to be an affiliate?
    4) Will the best deals ONLY be selected from WSO's or will they include other IM products sold off site?
    I find it a little ironic that people are asking these questions of the forum with the new management, yet there doesn't seem to be much of a deal with how the other WSO networks pick that stuff.

    Just my two cents.

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  • Maybe I'm missing something. I just listed a first WSO in years and looking to find out where this is?
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

      I like this idea. I'm not sure if this would work in forum format. It may need to formatted in another way.

      Do you guys think it would work in forum format?
      I don't see why not. It could be set up so each announcement is in a specific format, require approval before going live, and older announcements could be deleted. Kind of a cross between the JV forum and the thread Paul created for free Kindle books.


      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      Maybe I'm missing something. I just listed a first WSO in years and looking to find out where this is?
      You mean the one you're advertising in your signature? :rolleyes:
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    I did t whine I asked legitimate questions. Didn't get any answers though and probably won't since like many topics on this forum it has already degraded past the point of usefulness.
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    Looks like a good shake-up to me
    The whole rotten affair needed a good shake up and now it's here.
    Good luck and eyes down.
    Signature
    I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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