Desperately Need Help With Article And Video Suggestions

196 replies
My fellow marketers. It took a lot of pride swallowing to come here and make this post considering at one time I was a fairly successful marketer. In short, Google slammed the article directories and my business model crashed. End of story. So I had to start all over.

This January I put up a royalty free music site. In the almost 5 months since, traffic is about the same. I get about 150 unique visitors a month. The site has lots of music on it. By the end of this week it will have 5,000 tracks.

But I've been essentially told that the music is meaningless. That if I want to get more traffic I need to put articles and videos on my site as well. I tried to logically wrap my head around this. Why would somebody coming to a royalty free music site looking for music to download to use for their own videos or whatever have any interest in reading articles or watching videos? It made no sense to me. So I ignored the advice.

Well, 5 months later I can see that these people were probably right. So I am going to do just that. I am going to write articles and make videos and put them up on the site.

The problem is, I have no idea what to write or what kind of videos to make. Again, none of this made any sense to me so I am clueless as to what people would want to read and see and for that matter what Google would consider relevant so that I can get more traffic.

Please help. I am not looking for a handout. Just some suggestions. I have made all over $300 this year after a $5,000 year last year. I am desperate. I will do the work. I just need to know what I have to do in order to make this site successful.

Thank you for your help. Again, this wasn't an easy post to make.
#article #desperately #suggestions #video
  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    My fellow marketers. It took a lot of pride swallowing to come here and make this post considering at one time I was a fairly successful marketer. In short, Google slammed the article directories and my business model crashed. End of story. So I had to start all over.
    Steven,

    Welcome back. Good to see you back.

    You are right about articles and how it crashed for a lot of people. What I don't like these days is that some gurus out there still recommend their students to write articles and submit them to directories.

    All I know is that it is a waste of time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by talfighel View Post

      Steven,

      Welcome back. Good to see you back.

      You are right about articles and how it crashed for a lot of people. What I don't like these days is that some gurus out there still recommend their students to write articles and submit them to directories.

      All I know is that it is a waste of time.
      I know, but I'm talking about putting articles and videos on my own site. Can you help me there?
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    • Profile picture of the author kilgore
      Why do you want to write articles and post videos? Is it because that's what someone told you to do? Or is it because that's what your users actually want?

      If it's just the former, it's probably a waste of time.

      If it's the latter, you're the one who's in the best position to understand your customer and what the types of videos and articles they want.

      If you don't know the answer... Find out! If you have a Facebook page, post a question about it. If you send out an email newsletter, try to get people to fill out a survey. Maybe make people answer a one-question survey before they are able to download a song -- it could be randomly selected from a series of questions designed to learn about who your users are. Or figure out some other way to find out -- I'm just brainstorming here; there are countless ways to get customer feedback.

      The bottom line is if you don't know your customer, you can't give them what they want. If you're not giving people what they want, you won't grow except by accident.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

        Why do you want to write articles and post videos? Is it because that's what someone told you to do? Or is it because that's what your users actually want?

        If it's just the former, it's probably a waste of time.

        If it's the latter, you're the one who's in the best position to understand your customer and what the types of videos and articles they want.

        If you don't know the answer... Find out! If you have a Facebook page, post a question about it. If you send out an email newsletter, try to get people to fill out a survey. Maybe make people answer a one-question survey before they are able to download a song -- it could be randomly selected from a series of questions designed to learn about who your users are. Or figure out some other way to find out -- I'm just brainstorming here; there are countless ways to get customer feedback.

        The bottom line is if you don't know your customer, you can't give them what they want. If you're not giving people what they want, you won't grow except by accident.
        I do know my customer. My customer is looking for music that is suitable for the video or other project they are working on that they can use royalty free. I already even know what kind of music they're downloading most (rock, metal, electronic) for their needs.

        But as I said, I've been told, and the stats back this up, my music isn't enough. Google wants to see content. Without that content, I won't get traffic because my site won't be relevant in Google's eyes. I personally think it's BS but again, the stats back this up. My site is going nowhere.

        I'd consider writing Google and asking them what THEY want me to put on my site, but I know I won't get a response.

        FWIW, take a look at the top RFM sites on the Internet. You won't find article and videos clogging up the works. But this is what I've been told I need to do. It has nothing to do with my customers who will probably ignore the articles and videos anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author kilgore
          If they're just gonna ignore your efforts, it sounds like a big waste of time to me. I don't claim to be an SEO ninja, but from my experience pages get better rankings when they're... well, useful. Having a bunch of articles that nobody reads doesn't meet the useful test...

          That said... There probably *are* different articles/videos you could post that would be useful to your users.

          For instance... You know what music people are downloading. How about an article on the Top 10 best downloads on your site (with a snappier title like "10 Great Songs for Parties" or something) or the Top 10 most overlooked songs ("Top 10 Songs You've Never Heard Of") on yours site? Or articles about new music that you're adding? You know your customer. You know your content. Try putting the two together and see what you get.
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          • I can see some logic in putting videos 'out there' to promote the site, but not so much *on* the site...

            I guess you could put some vids of explaining the offer to people (I know the offer is obvious, but for google's sake)

            Anyway, you say you have been told to put these on your site, but *who* told you that?
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

            If they're just gonna ignore your efforts, it sounds like a big waste of time to me. I don't claim to be an SEO ninja, but from my experience pages get better rankings when they're... well, useful. Having a bunch of articles that nobody reads doesn't meet the useful test...

            That said... There probably *are* different articles/videos you could post that would be useful to your users.

            For instance... You know what music people are downloading. How about an article on the Top 10 best downloads on your site (with a snappier title like "10 Great Songs for Parties" or something) or the Top 10 most overlooked songs ("Top 10 Songs You've Never Heard Of") on yours site? Or articles about new music that you're adding? You know your customer. You know your content. Try putting the two together and see what you get.
            That's all well and good and certainly reasonable suggestions, but then it still comes down to hit or miss. I guess any article or video that's at least related to the niche can't hurt. The question becomes, how much will it help? The last thing I want to do is spend hours upon hours writing articles and making videos on things that have very little effect. I'd rather spend my time doing something productive that WILL make a difference.

            Maybe there is somebody here who actually knows the niche (has had experience with it) who can give me a definitive answer. One may not exist, but as I said, I'm desperate and figured I had nothing to lose by coming here and trying.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          But as I said, I've been told, and the stats back this up, my music isn't enough. Google wants to see content. Without that content, I won't get traffic because my site won't be relevant in Google's eyes. I personally think it's BS but again, the stats back this up. My site is going nowhere.

          I'd consider writing Google and asking them what THEY want me to put on my site, but I know I won't get a response.
          Steven, why are you relying on Google for traffic? Creating articles and videos in the hope of generating organic search traffic for any commodity-based business will be a slow and painful excercise.

          Your initial instincts were correct. Visitors to your site just want to see what you're offering and how much it costs. They don't really want to read articles about music downloads.

          You've created a good product - congratulations. Now you need to promote the heck out of it. But forget about trying to win over Google. That's a doomed venture.

          Advertise your service using product-related keywords. Get involved in webmaster forums. Go find graphic designers and video producers and set up joint ventures. Create giveaway packages to get your name and service out there.

          In a word, hustle!


          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            Steven, why are you relying on Google for traffic? Creating articles and videos in the hope of generating organic search traffic for any commodity-based business will be a slow and painful excercise.

            Your initial instincts were correct. Visitors to your site just want to see what you're offering and how much it costs. They don't really want to read articles about music downloads.

            You've created a good product - congratulations. Now you need to promote the heck out of it. But forget about trying to win over Google. That's a doomed venture.

            Advertise your service using product-related keywords. Get involved in webmaster forums. Go find graphic designers and video producers and set up joint ventures. Create giveaway packages to get your name and service out there.

            In a word, hustle!


            Frank
            Frank, first off, great to talk to you again. It's been a long time. Too long.

            This all sounds wonderful.

            Problem 1) I have zero funds for advertising. And even if I did, the cost per keyword would be more than what the downloads go for, not to mention so far my traffic is pirating everything anyway, but that's another story. I hope to get my main income from custom work. But that will only come with lots of traffic.

            Problem 2) I don't know where to hustle. I don't know who to contact. I don't really have a lot of friends in this industry anymore. The few people who I have asked for help essentially said "Sure, my services go for $100 an hour."

            I'd love to get JVs where I give away some music for the potential of future custom work but I wouldn't even now where to begin or who to approach. I have been out of touch with IM for a long time now.

            Maybe somebody here will see this and say, "Sure, I'll help you" or "I have an idea we could do together." But I've exhausted my personal contacts that I thought I could count on. Two custom jobs I thought I had in the bag ($1,000 each) both fell through. Considering I only get 150 uniques a month, that's not bad. With more traffic, I'll eventually get somebody who wants a custom score. Right now, $1,000 is like $1,000,000 to me.

            So yeah, I'd love to hustle. But where? The friends I had are either long gone or just don't care enough to give me a hand. Some haven't even bothered to respond to me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              So yeah, I'd love to hustle. But where? The friends I had are either long gone or just don't care enough to give me a hand. Some haven't even bothered to respond to me.
              I hear you. But you have to imagine you're just starting out and go build some new contacts. You've done it once, so you know how to play the game. It wouldn't cost much to identify the main hangouts for webmasters, designers and video producers and get yourself and your service in front of them.

              Put together a music showreel and upload it to YouTube with a link to it in all your forum sigs. That needn't cost much either.

              But there's no shortcut to this. Sitting back and waiting for the traffic to arrive, or for an old contact to get in touch, isn't much of a marketing strategy.

              Even posting again on this main board is a step in the right direction. There've been a lot of changes here recently (you may have noticed) and many new members won't know you or your reputation. Get posting and build that rep again.


              Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I do know my customer. My customer is looking for music that is suitable for the video or other project they are working on that they can use royalty free. I already even know what kind of music they're downloading most (rock, metal, electronic) for their needs.

          But as I said, I've been told, and the stats back this up, my music isn't enough. Google wants to see content. Without that content, I won't get traffic because my site won't be relevant in Google's eyes. I personally think it's BS but again, the stats back this up. My site is going nowhere.
          Steve, I didn't read most of the thread after seeing what most were "offering".

          I think the answer may be in the paragraphs above.

          Do you know what kind of projects they're working on? Sales videos? Squeeze page teasers? Course content?

          If I were downloading RFM for a commercial project, the content I'd find both appropriate and helpful would revolve around choosing the right music for the purpose.

          From that point, I'd try to syndicate that content, most likely off-web, to industry and trade magazines, chamber of commerce newsletters, and such. As the owner of a going site with 5k selections, you have some built in authority.

          After watching (and marveling) at your output a few years ago with the article marketing thing, I've no doubt you can make this work. You might look for additional syndication opportunities by networking via LinkedIn.

          I know you'll do the work, so I'll just wish you good fortune with what you decide to do...
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        • Profile picture of the author vbcannon
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I do know my customer. My customer is looking for music that is suitable for the video or other project they are working on that they can use royalty free. I already even know what kind of music they're downloading most (rock, metal, electronic) for their needs.

          But as I said, I've been told, and the stats back this up, my music isn't enough. Google wants to see content. Without that content, I won't get traffic because my site won't be relevant in Google's eyes. I personally think it's BS but again, the stats back this up. My site is going nowhere.

          I'd consider writing Google and asking them what THEY want me to put on my site, but I know I won't get a response.

          FWIW, take a look at the top RFM sites on the Internet. You won't find article and videos clogging up the works. But this is what I've been told I need to do. It has nothing to do with my customers who will probably ignore the articles and videos anyway.
          Sorry to hear about your loss. Maybe this will help. Take a song title and write an article on it talking about some great video ops for that song or even a snippet of the song stating that these 14 seconds of this song could be a great way to increase attention on the drama taking pkace, etc. hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Anne Laidlaw
    Just a thought but could you do music & video reviews? Would give Google etc the content their looking for.

    Anne L
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    I don't think it is that hard to think up some content to either put on this site or on feeder sites.

    Where can I find royalty free music?
    Why should I use royalty free music?
    Where can I find music for my YouTube videos?
    Will YouTube delete my video if I add a song to it?
    What kind of music can I use with YouTube?
    What happens if I use a popular song in my video?

    This is just junk I thought of in about 30 seconds. I would brainstorm what kind of questions people who have a need for royalty free music might have and create content around that. You could do these as separate articles or as a giant FAQ.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      I don't think it is that hard to think up some content to either put on this site or on feeder sites.

      Where can I find royalty free music?
      Why should I use royalty free music?
      Where can I find music for my YouTube videos?
      Will YouTube delete my video if I add a song to it?
      What kind of music can I use with YouTube?
      What happens if I use a popular song in my video?

      This is just junk I thought of in about 30 seconds. I would brainstorm what kind of questions people who have a need for royalty free music might have and create content around that. You could do these as separate articles or as a giant FAQ.
      Thanks Mike. Those are the kind of ideas I'm looking for. Would an article explaining exactly what royalty free music is help as well? I think a lot of people are under the impression that royalty free means free, which it does not.
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  • Profile picture of the author spearce000
    Don't put articles and videos on your site. Like @MikeFriedman says, put them on feeder sites and post them on YouTube instead. Have your RF music on them, of course .
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by spearce000 View Post

      Don't put articles and videos on your site. Like @MikeFriedman says, put them on feeder sites and post them on YouTube instead. Have your RF music on them, of course .
      Putting articles on feeder sites like Ezine Articles is all I used to do for my old business model. It doesn't work anymore. Those sites have all been slammed by Google. It will bring me ZERO traffic. If anything is a waste of time, THAT is a waste of time. Youtube, maybe. But there you run into the problem of promotion that can get your account shut down. How do I know? I already had one Youtube account closed because I had videos that were considered marketing related.
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  • Profile picture of the author spearce000
    Looks like PPC could be your only option, then.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by spearce000 View Post

      Looks like PPC could be your only option, then.
      Not an option. Forget that I'm broke and couldn't even pay Google's bill. The CPC would be greater than what I would earn off a download assuming that they don't just pirate it like they've been doing. My money will come from marketers who want custom scores. To get those kind of clients I need tons of traffic because very few regular visitors will shell out a grand for a complete custom score. I'm not going to make money selling $1.99 downloads especially not if I use PPC to get traffic for them. That's just plain suicide.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve B
        Steven,

        I know you're a good writer so I would begin writing for your own site - the kind of articles that people looking for RF music might like to read but also the kind of articles that will help you in the search engines . . . maybe like

        royalty free music for You Tube
        royalty free music for Facebook
        royalty free music for videos
        royalty free music for games
        royalty free music for podcasts
        royalty free music for slideshows
        royalty free music for web sites
        royalty free music for commercials
        yada, yada, yada

        Then you might do a series on how to incorporate RF music into a video, a game, a podcast, a slideshow, a web site, a commercial, etc

        How about a series on RF music for schools, community events, family reunions and gatherings, clubs, retail establishments, etc

        Hopefully, all these topics will draw SE traffic to your site. You may even decide to write a book (a compilation of all your articles) which could become "the Bible" on how to use RF music in a business.

        In addition to writing articles, I would suggest you begin looking for potential JV partners amongst the many business owners that sell video making software and services. This audience alone ought to have a genuine interest in sourcing their RF music needed in their videos.

        Another random thought - have you considered bundling your music tracks and selling them on Amazon (FBA)? There are lots of "themes" that could draw special attention to your music bundles like Christmas, Halloween, patriotic, religious, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

        Another random thought - PLR music? Do you have tracks that you could sell that included music with an unlimited license?

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Steven, since you're selling to the IM crowd maybe you can write about how music helps in the sales process, or how it helps set a mood that can be used to make sales, or brand awareness type of things.

          I don't know much about seo but there should be some keyword research that could help come up with ideas to bring in more traffic.

          Maybe some of the topics I posted would help in conversions.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Feeder sites do not have to be Ezine and junk like that.

    You can build your own. Only costs the price of a domain. www. royaltyfreetunes.com, for example.

    Some Web 2.0 sites can work well also.

    I would put a FAQ on the site with some of those questions I mentioned though. That kind of content can bring in visitors. And I would probably do both as far as the articles. Put them on feeder sites and put different original articles covering some of the same content on your own site too.
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  • Profile picture of the author ecoverartist
    Nice to see you back again! A few ideas for content:

    - "Is it safe to use this?" What Royalty-Free Music Really Means
    - Why do artists make their music royalty-free?
    - Deciphering "Creative Commons"
    - How do I convert royalty-free music to _____ (insert format here).

    Hope this helps!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by ecoverartist View Post

      Nice to see you back again! A few ideas for content:

      - "Is it safe to use this?" What Royalty-Free Music Really Means
      - Why do artists make their music royalty-free?
      - Deciphering "Creative Commons"
      - How do I convert royalty-free music to _____ (insert format here).

      Hope this helps!
      Thank you. You're the best. Really appreciate it.

      In response to the Feeder site suggestion from Mike.

      Question: Where are these feeder sites that I'm going to put up (I assume Wordpress) getting their traffic from? They have no more authority than the site I'm trying to get traffic from. So I'm wasting time putting up sites that do me no good. I need to get my content on sites that already have authority. That used to be easy when EZA had some clout. Now, not so easy. In fact, now it's an exercise in futility.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Having sites devoted to royalty free music linking to your site about royalty free music has some value in Google's eyes, so yes, even brand new domains can be worthwhile.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Steven,

    Great to see you.

    If you are married/committed to the idea of only selling music, I agree with most of what has been said above. In addition you may pick up some ideas in the new Growth Hacking forum here on the WF.

    Having said that, If you built that site in your sig. you can pick up some nice cash cloning that site and selling it. I mean that site with all the music, more or less should fetch you a nice chunk of change to invest in your business.

    I know it might hurt to think of letting all that music go to others to sell, however, you mentioned that pirates are hitting you anyway. Whole selling your music along with sites might be your best bet. You can always create more music and as you said your long term goal is to do custom work, which you could get from other royalty free music sites so as to make their offerings unique.

    Just another idea,

    George Wright, P.S. Having in the past been associated with an excellent songwriter, well known in his own right, I know royalty free music for Internet projects is a hard sell.
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  • Profile picture of the author TrustedSEO
    Hi,

    If I was you i'd just email Google and ask them, what they like to see on your site!

    Greg
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

      Steven,

      I know you're a good writer so I would begin writing for your own site - the kind of articles that people looking for RF music might like to read but also the kind of articles that will help you in the search engines . . . maybe like

      royalty free music for You Tube
      royalty free music for Facebook
      royalty free music for videos
      royalty free music for games
      royalty free music for podcasts
      royalty free music for slideshows
      royalty free music for web sites
      royalty free music for commercials
      yada, yada, yada

      Then you might do a series on how to incorporate RF music into a video, a game, a podcast, a slideshow, a web site, a commercial, etc

      How about a series on RF music for schools, community events, family reunions and gatherings, clubs, retail establishments, etc

      Hopefully, all these topics will draw SE traffic to your site. You may even decide to write a book (a compilation of all your articles) which could become "the Bible" on how to use RF music in a business.

      In addition to writing articles, I would suggest you begin looking for potential JV partners amongst the many business owners that sell video making software and services. This audience alone ought to have a genuine interest in sourcing their RF music needed in their videos.

      Another random thought - have you considered bundling your music tracks and selling them on Amazon (FBA)? There are lots of "themes" that could draw special attention to your music bundles like Christmas, Halloween, patriotic, religious, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

      Another random thought - PLR music? Do you have tracks that you could sell that included music with an unlimited license?

      Steve
      Bless you! A thousand times over, bless you. Very big help. I guess when you're mind is so twisted up from all the setbacks and financial problems, it's hard to think straight. Truth is, at one time I probably would have thought of most of this. But since my business went south it's hard for me to think at all these days. Thank God I don't have to think to write music or I'd really be in trouble.

      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Steven, since you're selling to the IM crowd maybe you can write about how music helps in the sales process, or how it helps set a mood that can be used to make sales, or brand awareness type of things.

      I don't know much about seo but there should be some keyword research that could help come up with ideas to bring in more traffic.

      Maybe some of the topics I posted would help in conversions.
      Thank you Thomas. I'll make a note of this as well.

      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Steven,

      Great to see you.

      If you are married/committed to the idea of only selling music, I agree with most of what has been said above. In addition you may pick up some ideas in the new Growth Hacking forum here on the WF.

      Having said that, If you built that site in your sig. you can pick up some nice cash cloning that site and selling it. I mean that site with all the music, more or less should fetch you a nice chunk of change to invest in your business.

      I know it might hurt to think of letting all that music go to others to sell, however, you mentioned that pirates are hitting you anyway. Whole selling your music along with sites might be your best bet. You can always create more music and as you said your long term goal is to do custom work, which you could get from other royalty free music sites so as to make their offerings unique.

      Just another idea,

      George Wright, P.S. Having in the past been associated with an excellent songwriter, well known in his own right, I know royalty free music for Internet projects is a hard sell.
      I have no doubt this won't be easy, but it can be done. My friend Kevin makes $6,000 a month just from the ads on his site. Yes, I have Adsense on it too in order to someday get income from that.

      Originally Posted by TrustedSEO View Post

      Hi,

      If I was you i'd just email Google and ask them, what they like to see on your site!

      Greg
      I have actually thought of that. Question is, will they read it and if they do, will they respond? Hell, I'd love to have Google tell me exactly what they'd like to see on my site. Who wouldn't?

      To everybody else. I have copied and pasted all your suggestions in a text file so this has not been for nothing. I will go through everything and start working on this project ASAP. I know I have a lot of work to do and it won't be a cakewalk. Making my first successful business took me 3 years. I don't expect this to happen overnight.

      Again, thank you all and bless you all. You have no idea how much your help means to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    This may have been mentioned already. If so, I apologise in advance.

    Remember to post everything you write, every video you make on as many sites as possible.
    It may not help with SEO, (which is debatable), but, it will generate traffic from those sites.
    Obviously you want to create your own Youtube channel with links back to your site.

    I overlayed my URL in the videos I made.
    You could also make videos featuring your music. Simple slide shows, or perhaps someone reading your articles.
    I turned every article I wrote into slide show videos using PLR music quietly in the background and included photos of the product or something related to it.

    Just more FFT.

    Good luck
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Due to my past experience trying to help you, I'm a little reluctant to post this.

    First, you don't have a unique sales position. Why should folks buy music from you when they can get it from a place like www.JewelBeat.com ? VideoBlocks also offers tons of royalty free music, combined with lots of other media for $99 a year for unlimited downloads.

    Even Youtube offers 150 (?) FREE music tracks available to download and use on any project, plus 10,000's of other music tracks you can use on Youtube videos.

    Sorry, but the honest truth is you aren't going to beat these resources on music alone. You must come up with a unique marketing plan.

    You say you have 5000 songs. I'd make 200-250 of them free, with terms similar to:
    http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-fee/

    These 250 songs act as "link bait" and for social promotion. You need to find every site that links to Incomptech and see if they will link to your site, as well.

    Next, I'd take another 1000 songs and add them to a free membership for download, as optin bait to help build a related list. On every page on the site, promote this as something like "get 1000 more FREE songs now. Click here."

    I'd take the remaining songs and try either packaging them for sale, or putting them in a premium download membership. Maybe something like $27 a year for unlimited downloads, with an affiliate program using something like JVZoo, etc. Get other people to help you promote.

    Use the email list to market audio and video related affiliate products, as well as your own custom services.

    You have some assets. You just need to come up with a different way to market them than copying the other royalty free download sites.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Due to my past experience trying to help you, I'm a little reluctant to post this.

      First, you don't have a unique sales position. Why should folks buy music from you when they can get it from a place like www.JewelBeat.com ? VideoBlocks also offers tons of royalty free music, combined with lots of other media for $99 a year for unlimited downloads.

      Even Youtube offers 150 (?) FREE music tracks available to download and use on any project, plus 10,000's of other music tracks you can use on Youtube videos.

      Sorry, but the honest truth is you aren't going to beat these resources on music alone. You must come up with a unique marketing plan.

      You say you have 5000 songs. I'd make 200-250 of them free, with terms similar to:
      http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-fee/

      These 250 songs act as "link bait" and for social promotion. You need to find every site that links to Incomptech and see if they will link to your site, as well.

      Next, I'd take another 1000 songs and add them to a free membership for download, as optin bait to help build a related list. On every page on the site, promote this as something like "get 1000 more FREE songs now. Click here."

      I'd take the remaining songs and try either packaging them for sale, or putting them in a premium download membership. Maybe something like $27 a year for unlimited downloads, with an affiliate program using something like JVZoo, etc. Get other people to help you promote.

      Use the email list to market audio and video related affiliate products, as well as your own custom services.

      You have some assets. You just need to come up with a different way to market them than copying the other royalty free download sites.
      Kurt, as hard as this is for me to say, you are probably dead on the money. I knew going in that this wasn't going to be easy. The site you mentioned above is actually a friend of mine. He's been online for like 16 years. His traffic alone brings in $6,000 a month just from ad revenue. It's sick.

      I know I have my work cut out for me. I am going to copy and paste your suggestions along with everybody else's into my text file.

      I have to believe that if I just keep at this something will happen. At least I am doing something that I am knowledgeable about and enjoy.

      That has to be half the battle.

      Thank you for your input.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Kurt, as hard as this is for me to say, you are probably dead on the money. I knew going in that this wasn't going to be easy. The site you mentioned above is actually a friend of mine. He's been online for like 16 years. His traffic alone brings in $6,000 a month just from ad revenue. It's sick.

        I know I have my work cut out for me. I am going to copy and paste your suggestions along with everybody else's into my text file.

        I have to believe that if I just keep at this something will happen. At least I am doing something that I am knowledgeable about and enjoy.

        That has to be half the battle.

        Thank you for your input.
        If worse comes to worse, a Plan C may be to make all your music free in the hopes you can drive tons of traffic and make money from ad revenue like your friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    But I've been essentially told that the music is meaningless. That if I want to get more traffic I need to put articles and videos on my site as well.
    That's complete nonsense. Whoever told you that is clueless, ignore them.

    I have multiple download sites I've been ranking pages for a few years, I've never wrote a single article.
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  • Profile picture of the author Entrecon
    Create some videos and post them up on YouTube.

    Create some jobs on Fiverr and similar sites offering some of your tracks. Make sure when you deliver them that there is information in the package about the rest of your site.

    List your services on some of the other Freelancer sites including here on Warriors for hire.

    Use your site as part of your arsenal for driving business, not the focus of it. If you are really just using it as a path to your other services, then focus on your other services and ways to drive business to that instead.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    You need to become a resource that others will recommend and link to.

    That said, what's the conversion rate like on the traffic you do get? I ask because I buy quite a bit of RFM and there are a couple of things on your site that stick out to me...

    The "click arrow at right to listen" graphic on your site next to each track is out of focus and quite distracting.

    Next, if I click one track to sample it and then click another one, they play at the same time. Most RFM sites are coded to automatically stop the previous track when the play button on a different track is clicked. Again very distracting & inconvenient/annoying.

    Third, you have some nice sounding tracks, but a lot of the ones I listened to sounded overly synthesized. I don't know if it's your recording equipment or something else. When I compared the sound quality to tracks on a few other RFM sites there is a noticeable difference. As a potential customer, I'd rather see 200 quality tracks by themselves than 200 quality tracks and 4,800 that I don't like. Not saying that your ratio is that bad. Just saying to go for quality over quantity. The ones I don't like detract from the ones that I do like & honestly I'm not going to stick around long if too many of the samples are something that I'd never consider using.

    I'm sorry if this response sounds like I'm picking on you. That's not my intention. It's just honest feedback coming from someone who purchases their fair share of royalty free music. And I'd hate to see you invest all of your time into driving traffic only to be disappointed in your conversion rate due to some potential product development flaws in the eyes of your target audience.

    Maybe my remarks don't match what your conversion rates are telling you. If that's the case, revert back to the first sentence of this reply.

    In the meantime, you could take your top 20 sellers and package them as a WSO for some quick cash. I'll pay the listing fee for you if you want to go that route.

    Good luck to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      You need to become a resource that others will recommend and link to.

      That said, what's the conversion rate like on the traffic you do get? I ask because I buy quite a bit of RFM and there are a couple of things on your site that stick out to me...

      The "click arrow at right to listen" graphic on your site next to each track is out of focus and quite distracting.

      Next, if I click one track to sample it and then click another one, they play at the same time. Most RFM sites are coded to automatically stop the previous track when the play button on a different track is clicked. Again very distracting & inconvenient/annoying.

      Third, you have some nice sounding tracks, but a lot of the ones I listened to sounded overly synthesized. I don't know if it's your recording equipment or something else. When I compared the sound quality to tracks on a few other RFM sites there is a noticeable difference. As a potential customer, I'd rather see 200 quality tracks by themselves than 200 quality tracks and 4,800 that I don't like. Not saying that your ratio is that bad. Just saying to go for quality over quantity. The ones I don't like detract from the ones that I do like & honestly I'm not going to stick around long if too many of the samples are something that I'd never consider using.

      I'm sorry if this response sounds like I'm picking on you. That's not my intention. It's just honest feedback coming from someone who purchases their fair share of royalty free music. And I'd hate to see you invest all of your time into driving traffic only to be disappointed in your conversion rate due to some potential product development flaws in the eyes of your target audience.

      Maybe my remarks don't match what your conversion rates are telling you. If that's the case, revert back to the first sentence of this reply.

      In the meantime, you could take your top 20 sellers and package them as a WSO for some quick cash. I'll pay the listing fee for you if you want to go that route.

      Good luck to you.
      1) A lot of the music sounds synthesized because it's supposed to. The electronic and dance tracks especially.

      2) All tracks are created using VSTs so there are no actual real instruments on these tracks. If you're expecting something different you won't find it here.

      3) The graphic has always been a problem. Originally it was just that, a graphic, with no wording. But then people complained because they would click it expecting to play the track. So I added text to it directing them to click at the right. I will change the graphic again to just a plain black background and white text so that it's easy to read.

      4) If you're not happy with the overall sound then obviously you won't be a customer. A lot of these sites have 10s of thousands of dollars of processing equipment which I can't afford. I used Cubase 7 and whatever built in processors it has. It's $300 software. I also don't charge some of the outrageous amounts that some of these sites charge for a track of music. However, if you listen to my orchestral stuff (which is what custom scores will sound like, just longer) you will notice that the sound quality is much better because it isn't processed as much. It is with this music that I hope to get clients to do custom scores for.

      5) For the record, and for what it's worth, considering how little traffic I get, I get quite a lot of downloads of my music, ironically mostly of the over synthesized stuff. They seem to go for that. Sadly, everything so far has been pirated and nothing paid for. So the last thing I am going to do, even if I had the money, is spend thousands of dollars on processing equipment. It makes no sense at this stage.

      6) Ultimately, I hope to find just one honest person a month looking for a custom orchestral score ($1,000) and that will be more than enough to get me over the hump. I'm certainly not going to get rich selling tracks for 99 cents to $1.99 nor do I expect to. I know what I expect to get out of this site once I start generating some decent traffic and I don't think my expectations are unreasonable. With the little bit of traffic I'm getting I already got 2 people interested in custom scores. Unfortunately, one backed out at the last minute and the other, after intensive communication, suddenly stopped returning emails. It is what it is. But I'm not discouraged and I'm not giving up. I am happy with the way the site looks (I think it is one of the best looking RFM sites on the Internet) and I am pleased with the quality of the product I am putting out even if it's not your cup of tea.

      7) Thank you for all your suggestions as well as the offer for the WSO. I will certainly consider it and take you up on it as soon as I can put something together. Right now I am working on so many things in regard to getting this site moving that I don't know when that will be. But I will PM you when I am ready.

      PS - I changed the graphic. It is now crystal clear.
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  • Profile picture of the author d3communications
    Let me echo the people who are steering you right: Find JV partners. Your service will not benefit from articles, etc. on your site*. Put together a few theme packages of royalty-free music (dramatic, uplifting, for background music in games/apps, etc.). Find people in the video production/content niche and do deals giving away your music (in packages, etc.) to build your email list. Market new packages to your list; sell subscriptions to your site in a membership-type deal. Sell affiliate (related) stuff to your list.

    All this assumes that your music is really high quality (that's the thing people have trouble finding...lots of royalty free, but a lot of crap to wade through.)

    *Having said that, you could do tutorials on HOW to put music into videos (or other uses)...for example, how to add a music track to Camtasia, how to choose the best music for a video sales letter, how to integrate music in the various video editing apps for ios, etc...stuff that is value-added for people who would be potential customers. Is there a beats-per-minute people should be using for sales videos vs. inspiration videos? You could also create your own YouTube vids featuring your music...maybe even go to fiverr and do gigs adding music to other people's videos...? It sounds like you have a valuable resource...partner with people who already have an audience that can benefit from what you have.

    d3.
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    • Profile picture of the author fosu
      Steven,

      I think you are more concern about traffic and not content in your main site..... you have already site ready full of royalty free music, so my opinion you don't need content on it, you need traffic and only traffic.

      Focus on generating traffic and visitor to your site......
      you need to spend a little time, say 2 hours a day.

      have a bunch of keywords related to "royalty free music" make your research on these keywords and have something like 1000 search per month for each keyword.

      create 5 or more web 2.0 account name them all same ex.
      royaltyfreemusic.wordpress.com
      royaltyfreemusic.blogger.com
      royaltyfreemusic.livejournal.com et......

      write 300 words article around each of these keywords and find software tool to automate the posting on daily or weekly basis for you.

      For the 1st weeks do not link from web 2.0 to your money site just to stay safe from not been considered as spammer.

      Post article on ezine and other known, put your link in the resource box.

      This would generate more traffic to your site without adding any content on your site.

      more strategy you can add and use to rank your site in google to have some traffic, create and upload 10 simple video 1min in youtube, link each of them to your site, make sure you put the link on your description first.
      Some people think video creation can be difficult or take a long to create, but this is not the case, if you have video creation software or tool, you can create 10 high quality video's within 1 hour or less .
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      • Originally Posted by fosu View Post


        Post article on ezine and other known, put your link in the resource box.

        This would generate more traffic to your site without adding any content on your site.
        This is bizarre advice - not only is it badly out of date, if you look at Steven's article count on ezinearticles you'll know he was a top player there and built a big business around it, until google killed that model as he himself says.

        Why would you give this nonsense advice?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

          This is bizarre advice - not only is it badly out of date, if you look at Steven's article count on ezinearticles you'll know he was a top player there and built a big business around it, until google killed that model as he himself says.

          Why would you give this nonsense advice?
          And therein lies the crux of the biggest problem with running a business online regardless of what niche you're in.

          Read this entire thread. Everybody has an opinion on what I should do. Some of them conflict greatly. Who's right? Who's wrong? If I myself am coming here looking for advice because I myself do not know, who do I listen to?

          Ultimately, I have to wade through all of this and decide who I trust and who I don't trust. What do I base that decision on? Does anybody here actually have success running a royalty free music site? My guess is not a single person.

          This is what I've hated about this business since 2003 when I first got into it. It took me 3 years to make a decent living online because I listened to so many people who, quite honestly, didn't have a clue themselves and just spouted nonsense at me because they loved hearing themselves talk. You have no idea how many things I did that people told me to do that turned out to be a complete waste of time.

          So again, who here do I listen to? To be perfectly honest, because I myself do not have the answer to what I should do (articles on site or not?, articles on other sites or not, etc.) I am ultimately just rolling the dice unless I can find somebody who has actually put up a royalty free music site, has had success with it and can tell me EXACTLY what they did to get there.

          Otherwise, this is all just a crap shoot.

          Which is pretty much par for the course for this miserable business.

          The only thing I can pretty much say for certain based on my own experience is that putting articles on other sites is a complete waste of time. My EZA articles do nothing for me today. Why would I go back to a model that at one time was my bread and butter and now has left me broke? It's totally insane. So that bit of advice I am going to pass on.

          The rest of it, I will have to mull over and see what sounds the most plausible. I have no doubts that I will do things that will have no effect. Hopefully, I will latch onto one thing that makes all the difference in the world.

          The downside is that it could be months or years before I stumble onto what "works." Again, it took me 3 years (2003 - 2006) before I finally started making about $4,000 a month and it took another 2 years or so to start making some really big money. I thought it would continue. I was wrong. That is why I pulled out of the "how to make money online" niche and decided to get into something legit.

          Anyway, like I said, I'll go over all of this (it's all in a text file) and ultimately decide what course of action to take. Hopefully, it won't take too long to come up with something that "works" because money right now is beyond tight. It's virtually non existent.
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        • Profile picture of the author fosu
          Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

          Why would you give this nonsense advice?


          Short answer to this: if this is nonsense advice, Steven can throw it to the bin, but sure it won’t hurt.

          Note: Sure in this threat Steven will not take every advice in consideration and implemented, will absorb the most effective one and wouldn’t think Steven will attack nosense advice as you call it, at least appreciate the time put in the thread by people to solve-help or advice.

          Why would you think is bizarre advice, yes may be it is bizarre for you if you consider to write an article and expecting traffic to come a day after you put that article in ezine or any other directory, having said that if this doesn't work for you it doesn’t mean it will not work for other peoples.

          I wasn't aware about Steven's article on ezinearticles, sorry to hear this model himself says has killed his business,

          But why don't you come down and let Steven himself comment and say this is bad strategy and can't take it in consideration, instead of your bizarre attack with no sense.

          I am sure with your mentality, it will be more bizarre advice in this thread, how would you deal with all these responses? or would you hire someone to attack all bizarre advice if you can't.

          Yes I agree with you, google kill the model of ranking ezine article, but does this mean Ezine Directory is dead, are you saying there are no other way to generate traffic from Ezine, or is in your mind EzineDir article===è must Rank in top 10 Google IF not than EzineOwner should and must close and shut down the site......
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    I'll throw some things at you...

    Others have suggested going for ad revenue. This would be an easy way to go as you're basically going to treat your music as content. I don't care what niche you're in, FREE drives traffic and may not make for the best buyers, but they are clickers. You could also advertise your custom scores service and you may luck out with enough traffic being pushed through.

    Instead of cranking out articles, you would be cranking out music as content. You will have to set some strong TOS so these tracks don't end up on any other sites where someone could just basically clone your site.

    Use YouTube to drive traffic by uploading lots of samples... incorporate some social media sharing on your site and a feedback form for testimonials you can post for added credibility.

    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    I'm certainly not going to get rich selling tracks for 99 cents to $1.99 nor do I expect to.
    Then stop trying...

    You could make some great money by shifting gears and being more of a content producer which will still allow you to do the thing you're passionate about while at the same time, making some bank.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      I'll throw some things at you...

      Others have suggested going for ad revenue. This would be an easy way to go as you're basically going to treat your music as content. I don't care what niche you're in, FREE drives traffic and may not make for the best buyers, but they are clickers. You could also advertise your custom scores service and you may luck out with enough traffic being pushed through.

      Instead of cranking out articles, you would be cranking out music as content. You will have to set some strong TOS so these tracks don't end up on any other sites where someone could just basically clone your site.

      Use YouTube to drive traffic by uploading lots of samples... incorporate some social media sharing on your site and a feedback form for testimonials you can post for added credibility.



      Then stop trying...

      You could make some great money by shifting gears and being more of a content producer which will still allow you to do the thing you're passionate about while at the same time, making some bank.
      You're going to have to explain what you mean by shifting gears and becoming a content producer. A content producer of what? Doing what?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You're going to have to explain what you mean by shifting gears and becoming a content producer. A content producer of what? Doing what?
        Just like you were cranking out articles at one time which drove traffic/revenue, crank out music tracks.

        Of course this wouldn't be direct selling (since it's ad revenue), but it's a viable business model and by leveraging YouTube you have a great FREE traffic source to gain some initial traction.

        If you want to create other articles/videos around this niche you could because all you would be going for at this point is driving/attracting traffic and then giving them something for free.

        Even with a low ad CTR, you would still be making way more money than you are now.

        This is a lot less stressful, would basically free you up in terms of creativity, and reduce the pressure you're under now to produce sales.

        Just throwing this out there as something to think about...
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

          Just like you were cranking out articles at one time which drove traffic/revenue, crank out music tracks.

          Of course this wouldn't be direct selling (since it's ad revenue), but it's a viable business modal and by leveraging YouTube you have a great FREE traffic source to gain some initial traction.

          If you want to create other articles/videos around this niche you could because all you would be going for at this point is driving/attracting traffic and then giving them something for free.

          Even with a low ad CTR, you would still be making way more money than you are now.

          This is a lot less stressful, would basically free you up in terms of creativity, and reduce the pressure you're under now to produce sales.

          Just throwing this out there as something to think about...
          I'm still not sure what it is you want me to do.

          Do you mean make music tracks, put them on Youtube with links to my site in order to drive traffic to my site?
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I'm still not sure what it is you want me to do.

            Do you mean make music tracks, put them on Youtube with links to my site in order to drive traffic to my site?
            I'm suggesting you go from a direct selling business model to an ad revenue business model using YouTube to drive traffic to your site where the money wouldn't be made by people buying something, but just clicking on something.

            (I should have just said that to begin with, not sure why I didn't )
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

              I'm suggesting you go from a direct selling business model to an ad revenue business model using YouTube to drive traffic to your site where the money wouldn't be made by people buying something, but just clicking on something.
              Okay.

              1) I already have Adsense on the site. I fully expected that this would be a major part of my revenue.

              2) I used to have 3 Youtube accounts. One got closed. One I use for fun and the third I just gave up on. The traffic from Youtube is minuscule. If a video of mine gets 300 views a year, that's a lot. I will never generate any significant traffic from Youtube unless I literally put up tens of thousands of tracks. If I can create one really great track a day, I estimate that it will take me about 10 years just to start to see something come out of this model.

              In short, my product just isn't important enough to generate the kind of views that I will need.

              In fact, if you go to Youtube right now and look up "royalty free background music" you will find very few videos with any significant number of views.

              Sure, I can make a track and upload it in addition to putting it on my site. But I'm not going to hold my breath that this is going to be some magic button because it's not. I have 8 years of Youtube experience behind me to know that it is very difficult to legitimately get a large number of views unless you have something that goes viral. My royalty free orchestra score is not going to have that kind of effect, even if it was the greatest piece of music ever written.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I have 8 years of Youtube experience behind me to know that it is very difficult to legitimately get a large number of views unless you have something that goes viral. My royalty free orchestra score is not going to have that kind of effect, even if it was the greatest piece of music ever written.
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            • Profile picture of the author rhinocl
              Steve I would go through all the ads you can find from people who charge others to create videos. These people need music for their videos and if you contact them you can have people who visit your site 2 to 20 times per week. Also put a 'Help- we need your help. Please share us on social media notice' in a prominent place together with share buttons and beg people to share. After all they are getting something for free or near free so some of them should share. Finally download sites are great for Adsense revenue and Amazon affiliate revenue whiich may help a tiny bit while you await 'full score' customers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Here's one person who does digital music and content professionally. He does offers a small representative sample and each sample is top notch.

          I found his article on best stock sites very interesting - it's part of the content for a "feeder site".

          Best Sites to Buy Stock Music 2014 | Day in the Life of a Commercial Musician

          Day in the Life of a Commercial Musician

          Musco Sound | Digital Music for Digital Solutions

          I've listened to many of the samples on your site. I can sit at a keyboard and make up music all day. At the end of the day, only about 10 minutes of what I "compose" will be worth listening to again. Several months ago some of us questioned your focus on writing as music as quickly as possible.

          I think you have too many samples with too little editing. There is timing that is off, keys that don't sound right, staccato that doesn't seem to fit and little nuance when it comes to sound. Each piece you feature should be edited until it's the best you can make it.

          Since I'm sticking my neck out and going against the "that is great stuff" group, I'll add one more thing. Too often your samples seem to be created on a platform or method. Start with a base and set a tempo, bring in one instrument after another, add runs and.... It ends up sounding methodical rather than musical.

          What I'm advising is to step back from the desperation and the ego and look at each part of the business you are building. Adjust and tweak and add as needed to make it better while you work to build traffic.;

          You've put a lot of effort into this and I think it can be done once you find your own hook and I'm not sure you've found it yet. It's that hook that people here might be able to help you with.

          kay
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    • Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post


      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
      I'm certainly not going to get rich selling tracks for 99 cents to $1.99 nor do I expect to.

      Then stop trying...

      You could make some great money by shifting gears and being more of a content producer which will still allow you to do the thing you're passionate about while at the same time, making some bank.
      I agree: slash the $0.99 and $1.99 thing. There is no money there, and it's clouding your business model with unnecessary fluff. Focus on the higher-end price range.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

        I agree: slash the $0.99 and $1.99 thing. There is no money there, and it's clouding your business model with unnecessary fluff. Focus on the higher-end price range.
        I agree. What those tracks will do, however, is help me get exposure. The more people who come to my site and download the tracks, the greater the chance I have of getting some custom work. I've had 2 requests already but both fell through. One because the producer didn't want to spend the money and the other because the person didn't get back to me after the 4th email exchange in discussing the project. But with more traffic, somebody has to come through.

        In the meantime, I'm going to explore other avenues for getting clients. I have a lot of ideas right now and one of them has to hit pay dirt. I just need to be patient and think things through carefully.
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        • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I agree. What those tracks will do, however, is help me get exposure.
          Exposure is pointless, unless it's specifically geared towards your target prospect. If your money cash cow are $1,000 custom pieces, why would you build exposure around people downloading $0.99 generic pieces?

          Do you see a $300 Don Perignon champagne bottle at your local Costco? Nop. Why? because that's untargeted exposure.

          Again, I repeat my previous advice: if your business model is the higher-end range, then cut the noise ($0.99 downloads) and build your business model EXCLUSIVELY around higher-end offers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

            Exposure is pointless, unless it's specifically geared towards your target prospect. If your money cash cow are $1,000 custom pieces, why would you build exposure around people downloading $0.99 generic pieces?

            Do you see a $300 Don Perignon champagne bottle at your local Costco? Nop. Why? because that's untargeted exposure.

            Again, I repeat my previous advice: if your business model is the higher-end range, then cut the noise ($0.99 downloads) and build your business model EXCLUSIVELY around higher-end offers.
            For somebody to even consider paying me $1,000 to do a custom score, they're going to want to hear samples of my writing. So aside from having a site with thousands of tracks showing off the diversity of my writing skills, how else do you suggest that I show prospects that I'm the one that they want to hire for the job?

            Again, the site is not 100$ dedicated to downloading music. There is also a custom score page with info. Granted, I should probably make a few demo videos scored and put them up there. That, however, takes a lot of time. Not to mention that I simply don't have any videos to score to and the public domain stuff that I have found (mostly clips from the early 1900s) is embarrassing. There is no way I would score to that garbage, It won't help my credibility one bit.

            So when you say "concentrate" on the higher end offers, just how am I supposed to do that? Scrap the site altogether? That makes no sense at all as my music is there. That's where they can hear it in order to determine whether or not they want to hire me.

            The problem is, I simply don't have the money to go to my Adwords account and break open the bank on "royalty free custom scores" or whatever other keywords would attract people looking for custom music.

            So please, by all means, what exactly is it that I should be doing that I'm not doing that's going to attract prospects looking for custom music that won't end up breaking my bank account?
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            • Profile picture of the author Lance K
              Steven, have you looked into joining any sites like ScoreAScore?

              ScoreAScore™- The Internets Leading Sound Marketplace
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            • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Again, the site is not 100% dedicated to downloading music. There is also a custom score page with info.
              Man... I would assume that someone with your experience would know better.

              Ok, I hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in your business, but you've asked for advice, so here it goes...

              Here below is a screenshot of your own website. The areas highlighted in yellow link to archives with hundreds of $0.99 songs (that yield absolutely no profit as per your admission). The ONE area highlighted in red links to your ONLY money magnet ($1000 custom pieces):




              Let me count that for you: there are 19 yellow areas, and 1 (ONE!) red area. Conclusion: you're cluttering your cash magnet among a myriad of pointless noise. CUT THE NOISE!

              But that's not all... when I click on your ONLY cash magnet (the "Custom Score" link), this is what I see:




              WTF Steven?!

              "If you want some custom pieces, email me at XXXXXX"... Seriously?! Is that the best sales pitch, case study presentation, benefit display and call to action you can pull off?!

              Are you in the $0.99 download business or in the $1000 custom song business? if the latter, how come 19 out of 20 links in your site point to $0.99 song archives? how come your only effort to close the $1000 sale is "email me at XXXX"?


              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              The problem is, I simply don't have the money to go to my Adwords account and break open the bank on "royalty free custom scores" or whatever other keywords would attract people looking for custom music.
              No matter how much traffic (free or paid) you throw at that page, it will not convert. I don't mean to be disrespectful Steven, but your problem is not the lack of traffic, or the lack of funds for PPC campaigns, or whatnot. Your problem is that you're pulling a very mediocre attempt and, in 2014 ultra-competitive world, it will not cut it.

              You gotta step up your game - in every aspect of it.


              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              So when you say "concentrate" on the higher end offers, just how am I supposed to do that? Scrap the site altogether? That makes no sense at all as my music is there.
              Yes, scrap it altogether because it is not going to make you any money. The music is indeed there, and you won't make a penny off it. You MUST focus on your money magnet ($1000 custom pieces) and build your marketing case around it, instead of burying it under a pile of cluttered noise!

              This is marketing 101. Someone with your experience should know this.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                Man... I would assume that someone with your experience would know better.

                Ok, I hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in your business, but you've asked for advice, so here it goes...

                Here below is a screenshot of your own website. The areas highlighted in yellow link to archives with hundreds of $0.99 songs (that yield absolutely no profit as per your admission). The ONE area highlighted in red links to your ONLY money magnet ($1000 custom pieces):




                Let me count that for you: there are 19 yellow areas, and 1 (ONE!) red area. Conclusion: you're cluttering your cash magnet among a myriad of pointless noise. CUT THE NOISE!

                But that's not all... when I click on your ONLY cash magnet (the "Custom Score" link), this is what I see:




                WTF Steven?!

                "If you want some custom pieces, email me at XXXXXX"... Seriously?! Is that the best sales pitch, case study presentation, benefit display and call to action you can pull off?!

                Are you in the $0.99 download business or in the $1000 custom song business? if the latter, how come 19 out of 20 links in your site point to $0.99 song archives? how come your only effort to close the $1000 sale is "email me at XXXX"?




                No matter how much traffic (free or paid) you throw at that page, it will not convert. I don't mean to be disrespectful Steven, but your problem is not the lack of traffic, or the lack of funds for PPC campaigns, or whatnot. Your problem is that you're pulling a very mediocre attempt and, in 2014 ultra-competitive world, it will not cut it.

                You gotta step up your game - in every aspect of it.




                Yes, scrap it altogether because it is not going to make you any money. The music is indeed there, and you won't make a penny off it. You MUST focus on your money magnet ($1000 custom pieces) and build your marketing case around it, instead of burying it under a pile of cluttered noise!

                This is marketing 101. Someone with your experience should know this.
                Okay, I'm going to change the layout of the site. I'm going to break it down to these links.

                Custom Scores
                FAQ
                Articles
                Search For Music

                I'll have a better pitch on the custom scores page plus I will include links to samples of my finished work which, because I haven't gotten any work yet, I will have to somehow do on my own.

                But all that is going to take time and won't happen overnight.

                Do you think that will work better?

                ** EDIT ** Okay, I have drastically cut back on the main menu options. I left music up at the top. Today I will rewrite the custom scores page and make it look more like ad copy.

                My only hurdle is going to be actually putting up scored video samples. I don't have any and I don't know where to look to find "good" public domain videos to score to. I guess I could use the Easy Sketch Pro that I just got and do a sketch voice over video. I just think they look so cheesy and not the best way to showcase my talent.

                If you know of any way I get a hold of some great videos without sound (I have no idea how to remove existing sound and music from videos) that I can use without getting my ass sued, I'm all ears.

                I have listened to what you said and want this to work. But I need your help or somebody's help to do that.

                Thank you.

                ** EDIT 2 ** I redid the custom scores page with a better pitch. I didn't make it too long but I think it will be effective. If you have any suggestions on what to add to it, I'm all ears.
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                • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  My only hurdle is going to be actually putting up scored video samples. I don't have any and I don't know where to look to find "good" public domain videos to score to. I guess I could use the Easy Sketch Pro that I just got and do a sketch voice over video. I just think they look so cheesy and not the best way to showcase my talent.
                  If it was me, I'd do a slide show of royalty free images that fitted with the mood of the score I'd written.

                  Probably with wording that essentialy said "hire me".
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  • Profile picture of the author manolo2
    Sometimes it not just the content but knowing how to rank it.I have seen some awfularticles and videos but ranked very highly on Google because they know what their doing. I would suggest learning how to rank videos on YouTube and then putting upsome sort of tutorial on how certain types of tunes affect certain moods or something you probably know better as to what your customers are into .
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by manolo2 View Post

      Sometimes it not just the content but knowing how to rank it.I have seen some awfularticles and videos but ranked very highly on Google because they know what their doing. I would suggest learning how to rank videos on YouTube and then putting upsome sort of tutorial on how certain types of tunes affect certain moods or something you probably know better as to what your customers are into .
      The thing is, I don't want to "game" the system. All this crap to "rank" with Google almost always ends in disaster because people are trying to game the system. Google themselves has said what they want. Put good, relevant content on your site that your visitors will find useful.

      It's that simple.
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      • Profile picture of the author TopTier Profits
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The thing is, I don't want to "game" the system. All this crap to "rank" with Google almost always ends in disaster because people are trying to game the system. Google themselves has said what they want. Put good, relevant content on your site that your visitors will find useful.

        It's that simple.
        Wrong.

        Forget the articles, videos etc. You need to SEO the shit outta your site. And the easiest way to do that, is to "game google".

        You need to rank for keywords like "royalty free music". That's it. Once you get the rankings, the traffic will come and so will the sales.

        Which brings to my next point.

        I'm just throwing this out there, but your music.....is well, dated. The whole "sound" is like some 80's video game.

        If I came to your site looking to get custom work done, the free music available does NOT make me want to pay you $1,000 for custom work.

        Honestly, until you upgrade your "production" and get more "modern sounding" I think you're wasting your time.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by TopTier Profits View Post

          Wrong.

          Forget the articles, videos etc. You need to SEO the shit outta your site. And the easiest way to do that, is to "game google".

          You need to rank for keywords like "royalty free music". That's it. Once you get the rankings, the traffic will come and so will the sales.

          Which brings to my next point.

          I'm just throwing this out there, but your music.....is well, dated. The whole "sound" is like some 80's video game.

          If I came to your site looking to get custom work done, the free music available does NOT make me want to pay you $1,000 for custom work.

          Honestly, until you upgrade your "production" and get more "modern sounding" I think you're wasting your time.
          Want to give me an example of what you mean by more modern sounding? I'd love to hear this.

          Oh, and people looking for custom Celtic orchestral scores for their videos aren't looking for "modern" sounding. Go look up Celtic music sometime when you get a chance.
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          • Profile picture of the author TopTier Profits
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Want to give me an example of what you mean by more modern sounding? I'd love to hear this.

            Oh, and people looking for custom Celtic orchestral scores for their videos aren't looking for "modern" sounding. Go look up Celtic music sometime when you get a chance.
            I'm just saying.

            Head over to SoundClick.com for examples.

            You can literally get "industry quality" music, from top producers, dirt cheap. I'm talking 50, high quality, full instrumentals for $19.99.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by TopTier Profits View Post

              I'm just saying.

              Head over to SoundClick.com for examples.

              You can literally get "industry quality" music, from top producers, dirt cheap. I'm talking 50, high quality, full instrumentals for $19.99.
              Okay, I went there. Some good stuff, lot of crap.

              It's a music farm. They pay other musicians to write music and post it. If a track sells they get a percentage. They have thousands of artists.

              I'm one person. They are not my competition. I don't need to be better than this site. I can't be.

              Additionally, the navigation there is horrendous. It's like a Dungeons And Dragons maze.

              You can have your soundclick. Somebody looking for a custom made score just for them that nobody else can use isn't going to find it there. I'm the ma and pa store who cares about his customer. They're just a music farm.

              You can have them. Not my cup of tea and I know a lot of people who feel the same way about these sites.
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              • Profile picture of the author TopTier Profits
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Okay, I went there. Some good stuff, lot of crap.

                It's a music farm. They pay other musicians to write music and post it. If a track sells they get a percentage. They have thousands of artists.

                I'm one person. They are not my competition. I don't need to be better than this site. I can't be.

                Additionally, the navigation there is horrendous. It's like a Dungeons And Dragons maze.

                You can have your soundclick. Somebody looking for a custom made score just for them that nobody else can use isn't going to find it there. I'm the ma and pa store who cares about his customer. They're just a music farm.

                You can have them. Not my cup of tea and I know a lot of people who feel the same way about these sites.
                You've completely missed my point.

                I used SoundClick as an example of what more "up to date" better production sounds like. I'm not telling you to sell on there, or even try to compete with them. However, the users on that site uploading ARE your competition. Why? Because even doing a quick search for "Celtic orchestral" (as you suggested) provides better sounding results than yours (some cheaper too, $1/download).

                And regarding the custom scores - you can get EXACTLY that. From top industry names. People just like you started out on sites like that and have produced for the biggest names in music today. Gold, Platinum selling artists - discovered on that very website.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by TopTier Profits View Post

                  You've completely missed my point.

                  I used SoundClick as an example of what more "up to date" better production sounds like. I'm not telling you to sell on there, or even try to compete with them. However, the users on that site uploading ARE your competition. Why? Because even doing a quick search for "Celtic orchestral" (as you suggested) provides better sounding results than yours (some cheaper too, $1/download).

                  And regarding the custom scores - you can get EXACTLY that. From top industry names. People just like you started out on sites like that and have produced for the biggest names in music today. Gold, Platinum selling artists - discovered on that very website.
                  And my point is that there are sites that aren't that good (which is still a matter of opinion) that are successful.

                  I'll find my niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author Entrecon
    Steven,

    Let's do a reset, because I am a little lost. Forget your current website and strategies.

    What do you WANT to do? What are your interests and what are you good at?

    Don't get focused on the site. Establish a solid plan of where you want to be and then figure out how you are going to get there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Entrecon View Post

      Steven,

      Let's do a reset, because I am a little lost. Forget your current website and strategies.

      What do you WANT to do? What are your interests and what are you good at?

      Don't get focused on the site. Establish a solid plan of where you want to be and then figure out how you are going to get there.
      This site is what I WANT to do. Creating music is my LIFE. It always has been. Now that my old business has tanked thanks to the spammy marketers and Google's reaction to them, I am now doing something I really enjoy, whether or not it makes me any money.

      This is what I want to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
        I don't know who your potential customers are, so I'm coming up short on identifying the appropriate forums.

        But if I was selling something related to infants, I'd search https://www.google.com/search?q=baby...oq=baby+forums

        and get active posting on the top 10 then 20 then 30 results. Not so much for backlinking, but to build a presence and authority and get live clicks on links in posts and or my catchy signature links.
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        ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

          I don't know who your potential customers are, so I'm coming up short on identifying the appropriate forums.

          But if I was selling something related to infants, I'd search https://www.google.com/search?q=baby...oq=baby+forums

          and get active posting on the top 10 then 20 then 30 results. Not so much for backlinking, but to build a presence and authority and get live clicks on links in posts and or my catchy signature links.
          Here's the problem there. The royalty free music business sites are all sites where other composers go, not where customers go. Customers go directly to the sites themselves that sell the music. Going to a music forum (already belong to a few) isn't going to bring me customers as these are all my competitors. We essentially kick around ideas for music, such as what's popular, how to score, etc. But I'm not going to build any authority at these places because there is nobody to sell to, unlike say here at the WF where there is a WSO forum and marketers DO sell to other marketers.

          In short, the only thing I would get from these places is maybe some ideas for new music and production tips. I already have all of those that I need.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        In short, Google slammed the article directories and my business model crashed. End of story. So I had to start all over.
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Why would I go back to a model that at one time was my bread and butter and now has left me broke?
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        This site is what I WANT to do. Creating music is my LIFE. It always has been. Now that my old business has tanked thanks to the spammy marketers and Google's reaction to them, I am now doing something I really enjoy, whether or not it makes me any money.
        Nobody will be able to help you until you're willing to take responsibility and hold yourself accountable for your current situation. Otherwise, I fear you're doomed to repeat your past mistakes.


        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Google themselves has said what they want. Put good, relevant content on your site that your visitors will find useful.

        It's that simple.
        It's never as simple as simply putting the content on the site. People have to know it's there to "vote" (consuming, linking, sharing, etc.) on it's relevancy.

        Why not do some freelance writing gigs to make some quick cash and invest it into PPC advertising?
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        This site is what I WANT to do. Creating music is my LIFE. It always has been. Now that my old business has tanked thanks to the spammy marketers and Google's reaction to them, I am now doing something I really enjoy, whether or not it makes me any money.

        This is what I want to do.

        Steven,

        Like you, I got wiped out by Google slaps of article directories.

        Like you, I've had to start over, both online and offline. I'm on businesses #6 and #7 since 2000.

        Like you, I love music. I love listening to it, I love playing my guitar, I love writing songs (I've written several) and I'd LOVE to pursue it for a living. I've been encouraged to submit many of my songs to try to get them published. Maybe I will someday.

        But not today.

        The reason why is because I learned a LOT from running businesses #1-5. The biggest lesson I learned from those experiences was to find out where people were ALREADY spending money and throw myself in its path. That's actually a quote from Marlon Sanders.

        Another lesson I learned was to only enter large markets where people were spending money 10-20 years ago and will still be spending money 10-20 years from now. Can you say health, wealth, beauty, hobbies, etc?

        Another lesson is to build a list in every market you enter. That way YOU are in control of your business, not Google or anyone else.

        Use multiple traffic sources. Don't depend on any one. It could dry up overnight.

        Only enter a market that has multiple products to sell. Build a list of buyers that you can market to again and again. One and done ain't no fun.

        As someone else mentioned already, you're a good writer. I still have an ebook somewhere that you co-wrote with John Rhodes years ago, as well as a huge PLR pack of yours that I got from Dennis Becker.

        For now I really encourage you to find something (or two things) that you can live with writing about and follow the process of article syndication at the link below. This gal is doing very well after a short time. She learned from other smart Warriors that are having great success with it. There's no reason in the world that you can't do it too.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/member-c...ndication.html

        I'm just getting started with it too. It's not necessarily what I want to do, but it's something that I know I CAN do and I know that it works.

        Put the music on the backburner or do as George Wright says and sell it. Get some money coming in and then re-evaluate things.

        Don't make decisions from a position of desperation. Get some cash flow going first and then you'll be able to look at things differently.

        HTH

        Joe
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

          Steven,

          Like you, I got wiped out by Google slaps of article directories.

          Like you, I've had to start over, both online and offline. I'm on businesses #6 and #7 since 2000.

          Like you, I love music. I love listening to it, I love playing my guitar, I love writing songs (I've written several) and I'd LOVE to pursue it for a living. I've been encouraged to submit many of my songs to try to get them published. Maybe I will someday.

          But not today.

          The reason why is because I learned a LOT from running businesses #1-5. The biggest lesson I learned from those experiences was to find out where people were ALREADY spending money and throw myself in its path. That's actually a quote from Marlon Sanders.

          Another lesson I learned was to only enter large markets where people were spending money 10-20 years ago and will still be spending money 10-20 years from now. Can you say health, wealth, beauty, hobbies, etc?

          Another lesson is to build a list in every market you enter. That way YOU are in control of your business, not Google or anyone else.

          Use multiple traffic sources. Don't depend on any one. It could dry up overnight.

          Only enter a market that has multiple products to sell. Build a list of buyers that you can market to again and again. One and done ain't no fun.

          As someone else mentioned already, you're a good writer. I still have an ebook somewhere that you co-wrote with John Rhodes years ago, as well as a huge PLR pack of yours that I got from Dennis Becker.

          For now I really encourage you to find something (or two things) that you can live with writing about and follow the process of article syndication at the link below. This gal is doing very well after a short time. She learned from other smart Warriors that are having great success with it. There's no reason in the world that you can't do it too.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/member-c...ndication.html

          I'm just getting started with it too. It's not necessarily what I want to do, but it's something that I know I CAN do and I know that it works.

          Put the music on the backburner or do as George Wright says and sell it. Get some money coming in and then re-evaluate things.

          Don't make decisions from a position of desperation. Get some cash flow going first and then you'll be able to look at things differently.

          HTH

          Joe
          Thank you Joe but that is not an option. I have sunk $10,000 and months into this site. If I suddenly told my wife I am going to do something else to make money, she would leave me.

          Sorry, but abandoning what I am doing is the last thing out of a list of 10 million things that I would do.

          But I appreciate the advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Steven,

    I'm guessing that it takes 30 minutes a song (at least) to create and upload. For 5000 songs, that's 2500 hours (at least).

    How much time have you put into marketing? I'm guilty of this myself, but shouldn't more time be spent on marketing a product than creation?

    I agree with your points on Youtube. However, it may be possible to use Youtube for another purpose. How about a channel dedicated to meditation or self hypnosis? Find/pay for stock video and/or "motion backgrounds" and add your music to them. Simply monetize with Adsense. With things like hypnosis and self help, you can also link to any of the many related affiliate programs.

    There are many other topics that are much more popular than just "royalty free music". Why not have a world music channel and a rock channel? How about an inspirational , motivational and/or bible quote of the day, set to your music? Again, don't worry about selling, just getting viewers and subscribers to your channels. There are many related affiliate products you can add as an additional revenue stream that aren't "royalty free music" related.

    You are a member of the High Voltage Video Forum. Take a look at my "Suggested Video" thread. Can you create "tribute" songs for the most popular bands and try to "hijack" some of their traffic and popularity? Take advantage of the popular artist tours that are getting lots of publicity. I'd also bet a Justin Bieber tribute song could do pretty well, just don't tell anyone it's you.

    I haven't tried these firsthand, but they are surely worth a test:

    1. Itunes - Create 10 "albums" as a test for iTunes, include some royalty free albums, as well as other themed music.

    2. Amazon - Put the music on Amazon too. I believe they also have DVD fullfillment and aren't just limited to creating books.

    3. eBay - Sell DVDs with your music. Find royalty free stock video and create DVDs for things like exercises, where the music on each DVD has the same beat/tempo, or organize songs with different tempos. Sell meditation DVDs, with relaxing stock video that supplements your music.

    It's pretty easy to make DVDs yourself, get some decent DVD templates for your printer, and you can mix and match your music inventory into tons of different offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Steven,

      I'm guessing that it takes 30 minutes a song (at least) to create and upload. For 5000 songs, that's 2500 hours (at least).

      How much time have you put into marketing? I'm guilty of this myself, but shouldn't more time be spent on marketing a product than creation?

      I agree with your points on Youtube. However, it may be possible to use Youtube for another purpose. How about a channel dedicated to meditation or self hypnosis? Find/pay for stock video and/or "motion backgrounds" and add your music to them. Simply monetize with Adsense. With things like hypnosis and self help, you can also link to any of the many related affiliate programs.

      There are many other topics that are much more popular than just "royalty free music". Why not have a world music channel and a rock channel? How about an inspirational , motivational and/or bible quote of the day, set to your music? Again, don't worry about selling, just getting viewers and subscribers to your channels. There are many related affiliate products you can add as an additional revenue stream that aren't "royalty free music" related.

      You are a member of the High Voltage Video Forum. Take a look at my "Suggested Video" thread. Can you create "tribute" songs for the most popular bands and try to "hijack" some of their traffic and popularity? Take advantage of the popular artist tours that are getting lots of publicity. I'd also bet a Justin Bieber tribute song could do pretty well, just don't tell anyone it's you.

      I haven't tried these firsthand, but they are surely worth a test:

      1. Itunes - Create 10 "albums" as a test for iTunes, include some royalty free albums, as well as other themed music.

      2. Amazon - Put the music on Amazon too. I believe they also have DVD fullfillment and aren't just limited to creating books.

      3. eBay - Sell DVDs with your music. Find royalty free stock video and create DVDs for things like exercises, where the music on each DVD has the same beat/tempo. Sell meditation DVDs, with relaxing stock video that supplements your music.

      It's pretty easy to make DVDs yourself, get some decent DVD templates for your printer, and you can mix and match your music inventory into tons of different offers.
      All plausible suggestions, no question. I don't want to split myself into too many directions however. I want to pick and concentrate on the one thing that will give me the most bang for the buck or I could be spending countless hours marketing in an area that's hopeless.

      As for how long it takes to make a track, depends. The really involved ones can take 2 hours or more, especially the orchestral music. And a full blown soundtrack for somebody's video can take 2 to 4 weeks.

      Most of what I've done so far is about an hour of work. No way I put more into it than that for 99 cent songs. But my paying customers, if I get any, will require an enormous amount of time, and thus the high price tag.

      Like I said earlier, I'm making a note of everything in this thread and putting it in a text file. There used to be a way to PDF the whole thread but I forgot how to do it, it's been so long.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        All plausible suggestions, no question. I don't want to split myself into too many directions however. I want to pick and concentrate on the one thing that will give me the most bang for the buck or I could be spending countless hours marketing in an area that's hopeless.
        How do you know what will give you the "most bang for the buck" if you don't test a variety of different things? Not to mention, often having a varied approach to marketing will give you the most bang for the buck. There may not be a single best flow of revenue, instead it may be a variety of smaller trickles will do the job.

        Nothing I posted will take you more than a few hours a day for a week to test. Itunes and Amazon are automated once set up, then will produce residual revenue. You posted all the problems with royalty free music. If you aren't selling anything and being pirated, give your music away and make money from advertising and building a list.

        Repackage your music and test the suggestions I posted above. Now you have multiple avenues with potential. Try something else, like selling exercise music that has good dance tunes with different tempos. Put together a package with 20-25 minutes of music for different tempos: 95 BPM, 105 BPM through 195 BPM, etc.

        Market it as great workout music for treadmills, jogging, etc.

        But quit making excuses. The time you've spent telling us why you can't do something, you could have done something. Sure, it may not work but that's why it's called testing. One thing we do know is, what you have been doing isn't working either.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


          But quit making excuses. The time you've spent telling us why you can't do something, you could have done something. Sure, it may not work but that's why it's called testing. One thing we do know is, what you have been doing isn't working either.

          Steven,

          I suggest you go back to basics... Develop a profile
          of your perfect customer... that one person who is
          most representative of your target market.

          That profile should inform what type of musical content
          you create, where you promote (Where they hangout)
          and how you promote.

          And, this isn't going to come as a surprise... Follow Kurt's
          advice and test, test and test some more.

          He's right.

          If what you are doing right now isn't working.... change
          what you're doing.

          You know you're not an easy person to help... pay attention
          to the tough love.

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

            Steven,

            I suggest you go back to basics... Develop a profile
            of your perfect customer... that one person who is
            most representative of your target market.

            That profile should inform what type of musical content
            you create, where you promote (Where they hangout)
            and how you promote.

            And, this isn't going to come as a surprise... Follow Kurt's
            advice and test, test and test some more.

            He's right.

            If what you are doing right now isn't working.... change
            what you're doing.

            You know you're not an easy person to help... pay attention
            to the tough love.

            John
            Thank you John. I know I'm a stubborn cuss. Nobody has to tell me that. I know my failings. I am going to test out a number of things. I mean it's not like I have anything else to do. This is now my whole life. I do this all day. Eventually, I have to believe that I will stumble onto something (by pure luck) that works. Like my wife (God bless her) tells me many times, even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while. I just have to keep plugging away.

            I do wholeheartedly believe, however, that updating my site with content other than the music (videos and articles) is something that I should do. Original content can never be a bad thing. It may not make much difference, but like anything else that I'm about to try, it can't hurt.

            Ignoring Les's snide comments, all of what I did years ago just doesn't work anymore. If it did, I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in. So no, I can't couch myself because I'm not quite sure what I have to do in order to make this particular niche work. So I am, in a sense, back to square one, which is why I don't sell IM related products anymore. I have no business trying to teach people how to make money when I myself am broke. Ironically, there are a lot of people in this industry who are doing just that. But I won't get into that here.

            Anyway, thank you for your suggestions John. It's good to see you still around and I appreciate that you cared enough to respond to this thread. Believe it or not, it means a lot to me. I've become rather humble since crashing and burning the last couple of years.

            Time to rebuild the dream.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              I must be on Wags ignore list - I won't waste my time again.
              Signature
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              Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

            Steven,

            I suggest you go back to basics... Develop a profile
            of your perfect customer... that one person who is
            most representative of your target market.

            That profile should inform what type of musical content
            you create, where you promote (Where they hangout)
            and how you promote.

            And, this isn't going to come as a surprise... Follow Kurt's
            advice and test, test and test some more.

            He's right.

            If what you are doing right now isn't working.... change
            what you're doing.

            You know you're not an easy person to help... pay attention
            to the tough love.

            John
            I agree with John agreeing with me.

            For a profile for royalty free music, that person is a video maker/marketer.

            A reason I suggested music to exercise to, with different tempos, is that you can target folks with a totally different profile, which is excercise. This is a huge market.

            Simple music with a good beat, organized by different tempos/BPM is something I have actually looked for, and really couldn't find. It's a way of selling music to a huge targeted audience with little direct competition. You can JV with virtually every exercise product creator there is. You can also build a list and target people that work out with related products.

            Think about all the ways you could market "execise music"...You could make a franchise out of this market. Exercise Music for Men. Exercise Music for Women. Volume 1. Volume 2. Blues Exercise Music. Pop Exercise Music.

            Again, this is something I looked for. It helps when I exercise indoors and want to maintain a certain pace.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Another option: Put together 50-100 royalty free songs with a liberal usage license. Watch for the popular video related product launches. JV with some of those folks and offer your collection of songs as a free bonus to their product. Have it so that in order to get your songs, the folks need to submit their email.

    You can also put together a package and create an affiliate program, where you give affiliates 100% for the package, with an upsell of access to 1000 songs as an upsell.

    You have so many songs that you can do a ton of different things. IMO, it's isn't either/or, but "all of the above".
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  • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
    Who are the customers? They must go somewhere?
    Signature

    Robin



    ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

      Who are the customers? They must go somewhere?
      The customers go directly to the royalty free music sites that actual sell the music and these sites do no help promote other sites unless it's some kind of JV where there is something substantial in it for them. My friend Kevin who has the number 3 site on the Internet does recommend alternative sites IF he feels they are good enough. I already approached him and he said that I'm not good enough yet to be recommended by him. I guess his reputation means a lot to him. I can respect that. He did say however that I am good enough that I should make money with what I've done. That much was encouraging.

      My best shots will probably come from finding people who have products in the IM niche who feel that adding music to these products will benefit them and make them more attractive. That will come down to making contacts. I've exhausted the ones I already know so it's time to go out and find new ones.

      @Kurt. You're absolutely right. No excuses. I am going to try a variety of things. Today I will have completed my quota of 5,000 songs uploaded. Starting tomorrow I am going to tear this thread apart and start picking things to begin working on. As you said, what I'm doing right now (putting music on the site and hoping for traffic) isn't working so I have nothing to lose in trying something else, anything else.

      I will report back here in a few weeks or so, depending on how long it takes to see if I'm getting any kind of results, on what I did and what it has gotten me.

      If nothing else, this is going to be one fly by the seat of my pants ride as I have never done anything like this before. My old business model was pretty cut and dried and worked for quite a few years until it didn't anymore.

      Time to move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

      It say's here Steve that you are a legendary success coach:
      https://www.hardtofindseminars.com/S...Interview.html
      Can you not coach yourself to success?

      Yup ata-boy, kick a man when he is down eh? I see you're that kind of person. FYI... When that interview happened Steve was successful so what you're saying is once you are successful that's it ... end game?

      Also, when things go south it's hard to concentrate and think clearly so you just spend most of your days spinning your wheels in complete circles.

      But hey, if you want to be the person that searches Google looking for eggs to throw then at least everyone here will know what kind of person you truly are and to stay away. Man do I ever hate the people who have to step on a man's head a push them further down just to make themselves feel intelligent.
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  • Profile picture of the author briankoz
    I hope to get my main income from custom work. But that will only come with lots of traffic.
    That's actually a very incorrect statement. You're assuming that you need to get tons and tons of "junk" traffic (people looking for the free stuff) to come across a couple high quality "custom work" buyers. That's only one strategy, but one that will be a lot more work and a lot harder to succeed at.

    My suggestion to you would be to focus on targeting the people looking for custom work. There's a few things you can do there to start with:

    1. Create a list of keywords that people looking to buy custom work might search for, and then make sure that you have those keywords being used at least a little on your site (especially in the title tags). This alone could help you a lot. Writing some articles or doing a short video or two showing off some of your work could also help here.

    2. I know you said you don't have a budget for PPC, but if you target just the custom work guys, I think you might change your mind.

    3. Search forums, classified sites, freelance sites, etc. for people looking for custom work -- there's definitely people out there searching for that right now.

    After you do those three things, you should also consider what other skills you have that you might be able to supplement your income with in the meantime. You're a writer, obviously, but can you also write sales copy? Powerpoint video sales copy (to differentiate yourself a bit)? There's lots of other opportunities out there and people are always looking to hire.

    - Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author Darragh
    Well, there is some confusing info out there. If e.g. you read Evan Bailyn, it's all about backlinks and little else. Others, like the MOZ crowd, Fishkin, Enge, differentiate a bit more etc.

    However, looking at your site e.g. with

    Open Site Explorer

    your page/domain authority (11/24) are not great yet.

    Some of this comes with age, but you definitely need more backlinks (dofollow better, but nofollow not necessarily evil, provided it makes sense to Google).

    But what I see right now as your number one weakness is on-page SEO, i.e. you have far too little pertinent text on your site to make sense to Googlebot, Bing etc.

    They just can't tell they should send you traffic from someone who looks for the music you host!!!

    Go to Google and search for "related:wagsrfm.com" and you find .... NOTHING.

    Type "music sites free" in Google and see who pops up. Then, e.g. no. 1 I have is:

    "freeplaymusic.com". When I do

    "related:freeplaymusic.com" I get e.g. 38 results.

    This is telling me you have some way to go with regard to SEO techniques which I cannot unfold all here. For that it took me several thousand pages of (e- and hardcover) books and thousands of blog posts etc. to read.

    You have to reengineer the sites that are your likely competitors (rule of thumb: where would you like your site to rank in any SERP - look at the site that's there instead of yours - check their Title, Meta description, Keywords, site navigation, then backlink profile) ... then get a bit better in each of these areas and you'll eventually outrank them. There is no other way in my experience!

    A good start that costs nothing would be the MOZ (formerly SEO MOZ) course,

    e.g. Chapter 7: What is Link Building? Strategies & Examples - The Beginners Guide to SEO - Moz

    and take a look at backlinko.com. But if you Google for "on-page SEO", "backlink strategy", "link bait", "SEO tools" and read all that you find you get the idea.

    And don't throw away your former site that was demoted by Google. It might still come in handy in your new efforts.

    Kind regards
    Darragh
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Yo Steve, how are you doing?
    It's nice seeing you again.

    If you can remember, in the past i had a brush with you after following most of your blogs even though am more successful than you today. Most of what i read in your blog back then actually inspired and spurred me into action.

    Each time i read your blog post it tells me of one thing, quality supersedes.

    Going back to the subject of discussion.

    I really don't see how royalty free music site can make any money from articles,
    could it be adsense again?
    Why would i want music and start reading articles?
    It doesn't just make any sense to me.
    Looks like you are still stuck in the past (the article thing). You need to understand that the only thing constant in life is change, yeah, i could remember you saying the same thing in one of your blog post. Call me a d**k head but you were part of my success story.

    Here is a tip of iceberg.

    Fish out the top royalty free music site and see how they generate their money as well as traffic source. There are many tools to help you know where their main traffic comes from and Alexa is one site that does a good job. A desperate man shouldn't be re-inventing the wheels.

    To Your Success,
    John Benjamin
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      A lot to respond to so let me take these one at a time.

      Originally Posted by briankoz View Post

      That's actually a very incorrect statement. You're assuming that you need to get tons and tons of "junk" traffic (people looking for the free stuff) to come across a couple high quality "custom work" buyers. That's only one strategy, but one that will be a lot more work and a lot harder to succeed at.

      My suggestion to you would be to focus on targeting the people looking for custom work. There's a few things you can do there to start with:

      1. Create a list of keywords that people looking to buy custom work might search for, and then make sure that you have those keywords being used at least a little on your site (especially in the title tags). This alone could help you a lot. Writing some articles or doing a short video or two showing off some of your work could also help here.

      2. I know you said you don't have a budget for PPC, but if you target just the custom work guys, I think you might change your mind.

      3. Search forums, classified sites, freelance sites, etc. for people looking for custom work -- there's definitely people out there searching for that right now.

      After you do those three things, you should also consider what other skills you have that you might be able to supplement your income with in the meantime. You're a writer, obviously, but can you also write sales copy? Powerpoint video sales copy (to differentiate yourself a bit)? There's lots of other opportunities out there and people are always looking to hire.

      - Brian
      Brian, thank you. Believe it or not, I never thought of this. I will obviously need to do some research on where these people are and how to get to them but it's probably a much shorter route.

      Thank you again.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I must be on Wags ignore list - I won't waste my time again.
      No, you're not on my ignore list Kay. Honestly, I didn't know how to respond so I said nothing. I just don't want to get dragged into knock down drag outs anymore. You don't like my music. You think it's flawed. Okay, well, it is what it is. I won't please everybody. To put in the kind of work you'd expect me to put in it would have taken me 20 years to get 5,000 tracks on this site. I felt I needed quantity to begin with to even begin to get noticed. Again, I was totally clueless on what was important to do in order to get this running and making money. If I screwed up right out of the gate, oh well. I can't go back. Yes, I can now start putting in that extra time to make each track John Williams material but until then I need to start working on other things in order to drive traffic and get custom work. I have been given some good starting points from several of the members here that I intend to go over and map out a plan for. I will also take your criticism to heart and work on making better music.

      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      I agree with John agreeing with me.

      For a profile for royalty free music, that person is a video maker/marketer.

      A reason I suggested music to exercise to, with different tempos, is that you can target folks with a totally different profile, which is excercise. This is a huge market.

      Simple music with a good beat, organized by different tempos/BPM is something I have actually looked for, and really couldn't find. It's a way of selling music to a huge targeted audience with little direct competition. You can JV with virtually every exercise product creator there is. You can also build a list and target people that work out with related products.

      Think about all the ways you could market "execise music"...You could make a franchise out of this market. Exercise Music for Men. Exercise Music for Women. Volume 1. Volume 2. Blues Exercise Music. Pop Exercise Music.

      Again, this is something I looked for. It helps when I exercise indoors and want to maintain a certain pace.
      The more I read about the exercise stuff the more I like it. I will make a list of these sites and start writing to the webmasters for possible JVs in supplying music for their videos.

      Like it. Really like it.

      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      Nobody will be able to help you until you're willing to take responsibility and hold yourself accountable for your current situation. Otherwise, I fear you're doomed to repeat your past mistakes.




      It's never as simple as simply putting the content on the site. People have to know it's there to "vote" (consuming, linking, sharing, etc.) on it's relevancy.

      Why not do some freelance writing gigs to make some quick cash and invest it into PPC advertising?
      First off, Lance, I am taking responsibility for my situation. I have sunk close to $10,000 that I didn't have into this business. I am dead serious about making this work.

      As far as it never being that simple, as I said, I was clueless as to what to do. I did what I thought would work. I was wrong. I had nobody to help me. I did my best. I will now move forward and start working on other avenues for making money through my music. I like Kurt's exercise video thing. Maybe I can hook up with a top site who happens to need music. I'm not ruling anything out at this stage.

      Originally Posted by Darragh View Post

      Well, there is some confusing info out there. If e.g. you read Evan Bailyn, it's all about backlinks and little else. Others, like the MOZ crowd, Fishkin, Enge, differentiate a bit more etc.

      However, looking at your site e.g. with

      Open Site Explorer

      your page/domain authority (11/24) are not great yet.

      Some of this comes with age, but you definitely need more backlinks (dofollow better, but nofollow not necessarily evil, provided it makes sense to Google).

      But what I see right now as your number one weakness is on-page SEO, i.e. you have far too little pertinent text on your site to make sense to Googlebot, Bing etc.

      They just can't tell they should send you traffic from someone who looks for the music you host!!!

      Go to Google and search for "related:wagsrfm.com" and you find .... NOTHING.

      Type "music sites free" in Google and see who pops up. Then, e.g. no. 1 I have is:

      "freeplaymusic.com". When I do

      "related:freeplaymusic.com" I get e.g. 38 results.

      This is telling me you have some way to go with regard to SEO techniques which I cannot unfold all here. For that it took me several thousand pages of (e- and hardcover) books and thousands of blog posts etc. to read.

      You have to reengineer the sites that are your likely competitors (rule of thumb: where would you like your site to rank in any SERP - look at the site that's there instead of yours - check their Title, Meta description, Keywords, site navigation, then backlink profile) ... then get a bit better in each of these areas and you'll eventually outrank them. There is no other way in my experience!

      A good start that costs nothing would be the MOZ (formerly SEO MOZ) course,

      e.g. Chapter 7: What is Link Building? Strategies & Examples - The Beginners Guide to SEO - Moz

      and take a look at backlinko.com. But if you Google for "on-page SEO", "backlink strategy", "link bait", "SEO tools" and read all that you find you get the idea.

      And don't throw away your former site that was demoted by Google. It might still come in handy in your new efforts.

      Kind regards
      Darragh
      Darragh. I know nothing about SEO. Again, I did what I thought would work. It didn't. I am now looking at the advice in this thread and developing a course of action. I like Kurt's exercise video thing. I think I need to just start contacting webmasters who might have a product that music would help.

      The SEO will have to be put on hold because I know nothing about it and can't afford to hire an SEO expert.

      Originally Posted by johnben1444 View Post

      Yo Steve, how are you doing?
      It's nice seeing you again.

      If you can remember, in the past i had a brush with you after following most of your blogs even though am more successful than you today. Most of what i read in your blog back then actually inspired and spurred me into action.

      Each time i read your blog post it tells me of one thing, quality supersedes.

      Going back to the subject of discussion.

      I really don't see how royalty free music site can make any money from articles,
      could it be adsense again?
      Why would i want music and start reading articles?
      It doesn't just make any sense to me.
      Looks like you are still stuck in the past (the article thing). You need to understand that the only thing constant in life is change, yeah, i could remember you saying the same thing in one of your blog post. Call me a d**k head but you were part of my success story.

      Here is a tip of iceberg.

      Fish out the top royalty free music site and see how they generate their money as well as traffic source. There are many tools to help you know where their main traffic comes from and Alexa is one site that does a good job. A desperate man shouldn't be re-inventing the wheels.

      To Your Success,
      John Benjamin
      John, first off, glad I was able to help you. A lot of music sites actually make money from ad revenue. I wonder how many actually make any number of significant sales outside of the ones who pay commissions to other writers to write for them if their music gets sold. It's not a model I want to get into for logistical reasons. Plus, I have yet to figure out how to keep people from steeling the tracks I have up there now. Thousands of downloads and not one sale. So I can see I have to shift my focus. The freebie seekers are simply going to steel this stuff. I have to find people who want custom music and are willing to pay for it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        The more I read about the exercise stuff the more I like it. I will make a list of these sites and start writing to the webmasters for possible JVs in supplying music for their videos.

        Like it. Really like it.
        I was thinking more of creating "albums" of exercise music people can download. Then offer an affiliate program for the albums. Actually, you can do both and it isn't either/or.

        I'm not sure how to package the songs exactly, but as a user here's what I did and want:

        I couldn't find any songs that were organized by the Beat Per Minute, but I found some freeware that tried to analyze the BPM of the songs I already had. It did a pretty good job, but was far from perfect. This took quite a bit of time for it to analyze every song I have.

        Then I had to go through the results the software gave me in text format, and create playlists based on BPM. However, not all of the songs were "danceable", with a consistant beat throughout. This took quite a bit more time.

        When starting off, 95 BPM was a nice slow pace. I then increased by 10 BPMs every week.

        As a customer, I want enough variety at each BPM that I don't get bored with the music. I also would like a consistent time duration of each song, 3 minutes is about right.

        Brainstorming...Maybe have 30 3 minute songs per album, with 10 songs per BPM?

        Sell each album for $12.95, buy 2 get one free. I think most folks would buy the "get one free", which would be about $26, which leaves enough room to pay affiliates a decent cut.

        Before creating a product, it's often best to write an outline/bullet points for a sales letter:
        Music makes virtually any exercise lots more fun and "Wag Your Body" is guranteed to make the time fly while you exercise.

        Whether you walk, jog, dance, do arobics, treadmill, jump rope, spin or shadow box, with "Wag Your Body" you'll enjoy being able to create your very own custom workouts.

        Go at your own pace - The problem with many exercise programs is they either go too slow or too fast. With "Wag Your Body", you are in full control of how fast or slow you want to go.

        Specially designed to help you progress at your own rate. Start off with the songs that have a slower Beats Per Minute, then work your way up through the songs with faster beats.

        Total flexibility...Mix and match - Create your own playlists that start off slowly, then increase in tempo, then end with a slower, cool down period.

        Take it With You or Use At Home - Load the songs onto your favorite music player to listen to while you walk or jog or workout at the gym. Or play on your PC or home music system when you want to exercise at home.

        Use as a timer - Each song is 3 minutes long. Just add more or fewer songs to playlists to create the perfect length for all your workouts.

        Great pulsating rhythms and beats keep a consistent pace during your workouts to help you maintain your optimal heart rate without guesswork.


        OK, not perfect, but these should get you started...Again, the exercise market is huge and easy to reach. This is a unique product with little direct competition that compliments many other exercise products very well.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          I was thinking more of creating "albums" of exercise music people can download. Then offer an affiliate program for the albums. Actually, you can do both and it isn't either/or.

          I'm not sure how to package the songs exactly, but as a user here's what I did and want:

          I couldn't find any songs that were organized by the Beat Per Minute, but I found some freeware that tried to analyze the BPM of the songs I already had. It did a pretty good job, but was far from perfect. This took quite a bit of time for it to analyze every song I have.

          Then I had to go through the results the software gave me in text format, and create playlists based on BPM. However, not all of the songs were "danceable", with a consistant beat throughout. This took quite a bit more time.

          When starting off, 95 BPM was a nice slow pace. I then increased by 10 BPMs every week.

          As a customer, I want enough variety at each BPM that I don't get bored with the music. I also would like a consistent time duration of each song, 3 minutes is about right.

          Brainstorming...Maybe have 30 3 minute songs per album, with 10 songs per BPM?

          Sell each album for $12.95, buy 2 get one free. I think most folks would buy the "get one free", which would be about $26, which leaves enough room to pay affiliates a decent cut.

          Before creating a product, it's often best to write an outline/bullet points for a sales letter:
          Music makes virtually any exercise lots more fun and "Wag Your Body" is guranteed to make the time fly while you exercise.

          Whether you walk, jog, dance, do arobics, treadmill, jump rope, spin or shadow box, with "Wag Your Body" you'll enjoy being able to create your very own custom workouts.

          Go at your own pace - The problem with many exercise programs is they either go too slow or too fast. With "Wag Your Body", you are in full control of how fast or slow you want to go.

          Specially designed to help you progress at your own rate. Start off with the songs that have a slower Beats Per Minute, then work your way up through the songs with faster beats.

          Total flexibility...Mix and match - Create your own playlists that start off slowly, then increase in tempo, then end with a slower, cool down period.

          Take it With You or Use At Home - Load the songs onto your favorite music player to listen to while you walk or jog or workout at the gym. Or play on your PC or home music system when you want to exercise at home.

          Use as a timer - Each song is 3 minutes long. Just add more or fewer songs to playlists to create the perfect length for all your workouts.

          Great pulsating rhythms and beats keep a consistent pace during your workouts to help you maintain your optimal heart rate without guesswork.


          OK, not perfect, but these should get you started...Again, the exercise market is huge and easy to reach. This is a unique product with little direct competition that compliments many other exercise products very well.
          Okay, now I am really loving this and I think I even understand what you're saying. I have no idea how I would market this yet but first thing's first. I am going to put together 100 tracks for 3 30 minute albums. I will divide the BPMs as such

          5 at 90 BPM
          5 at 100 BPM
          5 at 120 BPM
          5 at 135 BPM
          5 at 145 BPM
          5 at 150 BPM

          That should cover a wide enough range.

          I'll make sure the order on the album is from slowest to fastest.

          I'll concentrate on making the style of each dance track different enough so that they all don't sound the same.

          This shouldn't be too difficult to do. I can probably get 3 CDs done within a month or two depending on how many tracks I can complete per day. I won't be working on this solely as I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket just yet. But this is definitely on my to-do list.

          If it proves to be successful, I will just keep cranking these things out. I should have no problem getting a catalog of 25 to 50 CDs completed within a year or two.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Okay, now I am really loving this and I think I even understand what you're saying. I have no idea how I would market this yet but first thing's first. I am going to put together 100 tracks for 3 30 minute albums. I will divide the BPMs as such

            5 at 90 BPM
            5 at 100 BPM
            5 at 120 BPM
            5 at 135 BPM
            5 at 145 BPM
            5 at 150 BPM

            That should cover a wide enough range.

            I'll make sure the order on the album is from slowest to fastest.

            I'll concentrate on making the style of each dance track different enough so that they all don't sound the same.

            This shouldn't be too difficult to do. I can probably get 3 CDs done within a month or two depending on how many tracks I can complete per day. I won't be working on this solely as I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket just yet. But this is definitely on my to-do list.

            If it proves to be successful, I will just keep cranking these things out. I should have no problem getting a catalog of 25 to 50 CDs completed within a year or two.
            Speaking as someone that actually has playlists based on BPM, I really think you will need at least 10 songs at each BPM so users don't get bored with them. 5 x 3 is only 15 minutes.

            Also, you should probably go from 90 to 220 BPM or so.

            I don't think it's too hard either, but I'm not a musician. It would seem you could loop much of many of the songs, just add enough variation so it isn't too monotonous.

            I'm guessing 6-7 "albums" would be enough to get started:
            90 100 110 BPM (beginners)
            120 130 140 x 2
            150 160 170 x 2
            180 190 200
            210 220 230
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Speaking as someone that actually has playlists based on BPM, I really think you will need at least 10 songs at each BPM so users don't get bored with them. 5 x 3 is only 15 minutes.

              Also, you should probably go from 90 to 220 BPM or so.

              I don't think it's too hard either, but I'm not a musician. It would seem you could loop much of many of the songs, just add enough variation so it isn't too monotonous.

              I'm guessing 6-7 "albums" would be enough to get started:
              90 100 110 BPM (beginners)
              120 130 140 x 2
              150 160 170 x 2
              180 190 200
              210 220 230
              Sounds good. A definite blueprint that I can get behind.

              This should be fun.

              If you have any suggestions on how to get visibility for these once I complete them, I'm all ears. I don't know if that's been covered elsewhere as there is a lot in this thread. If so, just point out the post number and I'll read it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Sounds good. A definite blueprint that I can get behind.

                This should be fun.

                If you have any suggestions on how to get visibility for these once I complete them, I'm all ears. I don't know if that's been covered elsewhere as there is a lot in this thread. If so, just point out the post number and I'll read it.
                Affiliate programs would be my first plan of action...List at Warrior+, JVZoo, Clickbank, Share a sale, etc.

                Once you get a little cash, try PPC, maybe Facebook and Youtube. PPC on Youtube is "pennies on the dollar" compared to regular Adwords advertising. Send them to a sales page that only offers the "2 for 1" at something like $27. This gives you a decent profit margin.

                Set up "retargeting" campaigns so that you can promote to folks that visit any of your pages.

                Press releases.

                Create Youtube playlists using other folks' exercise videos. Add your own video(s) in the playlist to get people to your product page/optin page.

                Do a JV with other health/workout product owners, giving away one album as a bonus to their buyers in order to build a list.

                Add to iTunes and Amazon.

                Social media.

                BTW, to make your goal of $1000 a month, you only need to sell a little more than one "2 for 1s" a day, without affiliate sales.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        First off, Lance, I am taking responsibility for my situation. I have sunk close to $10,000 that I didn't have into this business. I am dead serious about making this work.
        Taking responsibility and holding yourself accountable aren't the same thing. You must do both. From the wording in your replies I quoted, you aren't being accountable IMO. Regardless, good luck to you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Darragh
        Darragh. I know nothing about SEO. Again, I did what I thought would work. It didn't. I am now looking at the advice in this thread and developing a course of action. I like Kurt's exercise video thing. I think I need to just start contacting webmasters who might have a product that music would help.

        The SEO will have to be put on hold because I know nothing about it and can't afford to hire an SEO expert.


        Sorry to say, and I don't want to upset you, but what you're telling me is this: "I'm in deep water, I can't swim, but neither have I time to learn it nor can I afford to hire someone to drag me out".

        That means you'll drown, because SEO is to getting web traffic what swimming is to surviving drowning (if you're in water deeper than your nose).

        There is one exception: paid traffic. While there is an often-touted rule of thumb whereby SERP ("search engine results", "organic", name it what you will) traffic is about a fourteenth in cost compared to paid traffic, not always is organic traffic the way to go. It's like saying "going by foot is about a hundred times cheaper than going by car". However, if you need to get somewhere quick, walking may still not be the method of choice.

        That being said, though, you are telling us that, because of your financial situation, you cannot afford a car. So staying put ("drowning", "not getting anywhere" - name it what you will) is your alternative to at least giving SEO a try. One way you're going to drown with certainty, the other way you stand a chance.

        Don't get me wrong: there are a very good and pertinent suggestions in this thread, and I haven't read all of it. But without trying to put anyone down: when you're in deep water you need neither think about whether you should have chosen a different color bathing trunk nor if you might have been better off jumping in at another place.

        As long as the search engines have no reason to attribute to your site a certain superior form of authority in "all things music" you're not going to see your site above result no. 11 and that is as good as oblivion.

        There are already other sites out there (that I alluded to in my previous post). They are the incumbents, you are not going to bypass them just because you put up a fancy video. And if you did, still, you'd fall back to where you were if the incumbent also put up a similar video. They'll always outrank you unless you have two things in place: on-page SEO, that is: pertinent text, as Google does not crawl pictures, not videos and no mp3-files. The spider looks at text, the more the merrier. But not just any text. Pertinent text.

        And since others have good text too, then, in a second cycle of deliberation, the search engine looks at how many people/sites link to you and why. Without the first ingredient, no amount of links would get you among the first ten results. But without the second (pertinent links) you will not beat any other site that also has pertinent content.

        If you see other advice, then check out if the sites that are meant to rank using this "other" advice really rank (not for artificial keywords no one searches for, like "fresh brown flowers" but for the flowers people search for either for Valntine's day of for a funeral - anything else is Science Fiction).

        Now I'll leave it that ...
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        • Profile picture of the author Bjarne Eldhuset
          Any wordpress page could be used to show wordpress posts.

          This is from the top of my head, so it will be the short version:

          1. Create a new page, and title it Blog (or anything you like)

          2. Create a new post category, and call it Blog (or anything you like)

          3. Use the free wordpress plugin below to show posts from the category blog on the page called blog:
          WordPress › List category posts « WordPress Plugins

          Scroll down a bit at that page to find links to a couple of video tutorials showing the possibilities.

          Result: You have a page called Blog, that shows all posts you publish in the category called Blog.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Bjarne Eldhuset View Post

            Any wordpress page could be used to show wordpress posts.

            This is from the top of my head, so it will be the short version:

            1. Create a new page, and title it Blog (or anything you like)

            2. Create a new post category, and call it Blog (or anything you like)

            3. Use the free wordpress plugin below to show posts from the category blog on the page called blog:
            WordPress › List category posts « WordPress Plugins

            Scroll down a bit at that page to find links to a couple of video tutorials showing the possibilities.

            Result: You have a page called Blog, that shows all posts you publish in the category called Blog.
            Thanks Bjarne. I will DEFINITELY give this a try.

            ** EDIT ** Okay, I downloaded and installed the plugin. I just want t make sure that what's happening is what is supposed to happen. The plugin appears to simply be listing each post I've made to that category as a clickable link. The visitor will still have to click the link itself to read the article, correct?
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            • Profile picture of the author Bjarne Eldhuset
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Thanks Bjarne. I will DEFINITELY give this a try.

              ** EDIT ** Okay, I downloaded and installed the plugin. I just want t make sure that what's happening is what is supposed to happen. The plugin appears to simply be listing each post I've made to that category as a clickable link. The visitor will still have to click the link itself to read the article, correct?
              Re: List Category Posts plugin
              I'm guessing by now you have a wordpress page called "Blog" with this code on it:
              [catlist name=Blog]

              This is the most basic use, and will show a list of blog post titles only. But there is a lot of customization options listed here:
              WordPress › List category posts « WordPress Plugins

              Try using this code:
              [catlist name=Blog content=yes numberposts=15 pagination=yes orderby=date order=descending]

              This should show:
              Posts from category Blog, showing the full posts, showing 15 posts on the Blog page before pagination kicks in at the bottom, and the posts should be ordered descendingly by publishing date.

              There are a lot more customizations options for this great plugin.

              You can for example combine tags + category. You could make a page where you show all posts from a category called "banana recipies", but only if they are also tagged with "has apples".

              Or you could even use this shortcode: [catlist search="heroes and villains"] , which would show a list of posts that match that search term.

              So the plugin could be used to pull out any collection of blog posts and show them on a page, or in a post.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bjarne Eldhuset
                Re: WP eStore Plugin
                On this page:
                WP eStore Shortcodes and Functions Reference | Tips and Tricks WP eCommerce
                ...it says that there is an “Extra WP eStore Shortcodes” addon plugin that gives the options listed in this pdf:
                http://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/ecom...shortcodes.pdf

                If this shortcode works, it should solve the search issue:
                [wp_eStore_product_search]
                Place it on a post or page to allow your customers to search your products database
                I see you can also use a subscription button:

                Subscription Button Only Shortcodes

                A "Subscription" button is used for collecting recurring payments. This means you want the payment to recur at a
                specified interval (Example: once a month). For example, you could use this type of button for a membership payment.

                http://www.your-domain.com/?wp_eStore_subscribe=1
                A text link that lets the user purchase a subscription
                product via a "Subscription" type button.
                How about allowing people to pay a monthly subscription for access?
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Bjarne Eldhuset View Post

                  Re: WP eStore Plugin
                  On this page:
                  WP eStore Shortcodes and Functions Reference | Tips and Tricks WP eCommerce
                  ...it says that there is an "Extra WP eStore Shortcodes" addon plugin that gives the options listed in this pdf:
                  http://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/ecom...shortcodes.pdf

                  If this shortcode works, it should solve the search issue:


                  I see you can also use a subscription button:



                  How about allowing people to pay a monthly subscription for access?
                  Thanks for the shortcode suggestion. I can't use it until I can prove to the company that I paid for the eStore plugin. My web designer did and didn't give me the info so I can't prove it right now. I have contacted support and hopefully they can help me.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Bjarne Eldhuset View Post

                  Re: WP eStore Plugin
                  On this page:
                  WP eStore Shortcodes and Functions Reference | Tips and Tricks WP eCommerce
                  ...it says that there is an "Extra WP eStore Shortcodes" addon plugin that gives the options listed in this pdf:
                  http://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/ecom...shortcodes.pdf

                  If this shortcode works, it should solve the search issue:


                  I see you can also use a subscription button:



                  How about allowing people to pay a monthly subscription for access?
                  Bjarne, here's the deal on WP eStore and the short codes.

                  My web designer is an ass. Period. He says he won't give me the purchase info for the plugin because he didn't charge me for it when he charged me for the site design. So what I have to do is spend the $49.95 that I don't have for a plugin that I already do have in order to get the plugin to be able to use the shortcode.

                  I will NEVER do business with this ass again. He knows how broke I am and this is how he treats me. And he's supposed to be my friend (yes, I know him personally through another friend of mine)

                  This is why I have always done everything myself and detest working with others.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Okay, I purchased the plugin that I didn't need, installed the shortcodes and now have a product search one on category as a test. Works fine. I will now add them to the other categories.

                    We're getting there.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Bjarne, here's the deal on WP eStore and the short codes.

                    My web designer is an ass. Period. He says he won't give me the purchase info for the plugin because he didn't charge me for it when he charged me for the site design. So what I have to do is spend the $49.95 that I don't have for a plugin that I already do have in order to get the plugin to be able to use the shortcode.

                    I will NEVER do business with this ass again. He knows how broke I am and this is how he treats me. And he's supposed to be my friend (yes, I know him personally through another friend of mine)

                    This is why I have always done everything myself and detest working with others.
                    Steven,

                    Been reading your thread and if you need help with WordPress (WP) I will be happy to help you free of charge. Please understand that I can do almost anything WP wise and also explain to you how to do almost anything if you want to do it yourself, but my time is limited unless I schedule work ahead of time. At present, my turn-around time is 20 to 24 hours for complicated tasks.

                    You have helped a lot of us over the years, so I am happy to help you if I can. Please understand that I can not do everything, so there may be times I will tell you that upfront, so there are no misunderstandings.

                    You are always welcome to contact me at my support desk and I'll let the staff know to contact me, priority, if you use it.

                    Jeffery 100% :-)
                    Signature

                    Entrepreneurs starting out and small businesses without giant staffs and budgets.

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    @ Steven Wagenheim

    I'm looking at your site (forum sig) right now, your basically doing what I've been doing for over 8 years, same concept, different niche.

    I'll tell you an easy way to drive targeted free traffic to your site.

    Here's the secret, same niche forum traffic. I still average about 3,000 unique traffic today/everyday from being very active on a same niche forum years ago, but being active isn't enough you have to be active & laser focused on a single sub-niche (ex: royalty free music).

    There's a few things you need to do:
    • Number one goal, be sincere in everything you post on the same niche forum.
    • Do not advertise any paid product on a forum sig, etc...
    • Start or find an existing thread that's only focused on one subject, example, royalty free music.
    • Upload free full samples of royalty free music for each of the categories on your own website, upload them directly to the forum as individual zip files. The files have to be 100% free (trust me on this).
    • Include the same free sample files on your own website, one file per webpage (except for category pages).
    • Add an internet shortcut icon/link inside each of the individual zip files that links back to your own site (repeat traffic).

    The goal here is to build a single forum thread that dominates the entire sub-niche, that's sub-niche not overall niche, there's a huge difference. The difference is staying laser focused on one thing (ex: royalty free music).

    Your creating a go to place on the net for your downloadable files. The niche forum gets the advantage of being a hub for all your free files without losing any traffic, it's a win win situation for both. Your files will eventually draw in traffic as the thread grows. You have to be consistent when posting files, spread it out over months, post new free files daily If possible.

    Make sure to post your basic files on the forum but occasionally throw in one of your best files, all hosted on the same niche forum thread (one massive forum thread).

    Once traffic is back on your site, do all your selling. I know some people think freebie seekers don't buy but I've found that to not be true. Example, If someone offered me a free tshirt at a concert, I would take the tshirt, I would still end up buying another tshirt at the next concert, or whatever... My point is laser focused sub-niche traffic will spend money If you have what they're looking for.

    Remember we're aiming to brand the entire strategy. Train traffic to come back to you for your sub-niche content.

    If you follow that outline you shouldn't have any problem driving a lot of consistent traffic back to your own site for years. You will eventually be the go to person for that sub-niche, not only on the single forum but multiple same niche forums (traffic will spread the links for you).

    Most forum members belong to multiple same niche forums, they'll spread the backlink on multiple niche forums recommending other forum members back to your free files. The traffic adds up. Only post your free sample files in a single forum thread on a single forum, I can't stress that enough. Do not spread yourself thin over multiple forums/threads. Let the other forum members do all the single forum thread promoting.

    You'll eventually get to the point where you no longer need to post content, If your consistent for a long period of time you'll be burnt out anyways, lol, the long term traffic is worth the work.

    I'm not exaggerating when I say I have millions of internet shortcut links/downloads on niche traffic computers. I average 7 page views per unique traffic & around 3k traffic per day (extremely consistent & hands free now). The last couple of years I've rarely updated my sites, other than SEO & testing new things. Keep in mind I'm in a very small sub-niche, but I dominate that sub-niche.

    This isn't build it and they will come, this is a heck of a lot of upfront work. Here's how to create yourself an out so you can eventually stop posting free files on the single forum thread.

    This is key to long term traffic...

    Get as many other forum members to join in & start posting their own free content, in your case free samples of royalty free music. You want the thread to eventually be maintenance free on your part but still be a very active forum thread. Don't worry about any competition on the forum thread, most will only post 1 or 2 files & move on, that's where your consistent posting of new files creates authority.

    That's the basics of my strategy for niche download sites.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      @ Steven Wagenheim

      I'm looking at your site (forum sig) right now, your basically doing what I've been doing for over 8 years, same concept, different niche.

      I'll tell you an easy way to drive targeted free traffic to your site.

      Here's the secret, same niche forum traffic. I still average about 3,000 unique traffic today/everyday from being very active on a same niche forum years ago, but being active isn't enough you have to be active & laser focused on a single sub-niche (ex: royalty free music).

      There's a few things you need to do:
      • Number one goal, be sincere in everything you post on the same niche forum.
      • Do not advertise any paid product on a forum sig, etc...
      • Start or find an existing thread that's only focused on one subject, example, royalty free music.
      • Upload free full samples of royalty free music for each of the categories on your own website, upload them directly to the forum as individual zip files. The files have to be 100% free (trust me on this).
      • Include the same free sample files on your own website, one file per webpage (except for category pages).
      • Add an internet shortcut icon/link inside each of the individual zip files that links back to your own site (repeat traffic).

      The goal here is to build a single forum thread that dominates the entire sub-niche, that's sub-niche not overall niche, there's a huge difference. The difference is staying laser focused on one thing (ex: royalty free music).

      Your creating a go to place on the net for your downloadable files. The niche forum gets the advantage of being a hub for all your free files without losing any traffic, it's a win win situation for both. Your files will eventually draw in traffic as the thread grows. You have to be consistent when posting files, spread it out over months, post new free files daily If possible.

      Make sure to post your basic files on the forum but occasionally throw in one of your best files, all hosted on the same niche forum thread (one massive forum thread).

      Once traffic is back on your site, do all your selling. I know some people think freebie seekers don't buy but I've found that to not be true. Example, If someone offered me a free tshirt at a concert, I would take the tshirt, I would still end up buying another tshirt at the next concert, or whatever... My point is laser focused sub-niche traffic will spend money If you have what they're looking for.

      Remember we're aiming to brand the entire strategy. Train traffic to come back to you for your sub-niche content.

      If you follow that outline you shouldn't have any problem driving a lot of consistent traffic back to your own site for years. You will eventually be the go to person for that sub-niche, not only on the single forum but multiple same niche forums (traffic will spread the links for you).

      Most forum members belong to multiple same niche forums, they'll spread the backlink on multiple niche forums recommending other forum members back to your free files. The traffic adds up. Only post your free sample files in a single forum thread on a single forum, I can't stress that enough. Do not spread yourself thin over multiple forums/threads. Let the other forum members do all the single forum thread promoting.

      You'll eventually get to the point where you no longer need to post content, If your consistent for a long period of time you'll be burnt out anyways, lol, the long term traffic is worth the work.

      I'm not exaggerating when I say I have millions of internet shortcut links/downloads on niche traffic computers. I average 7 page views per unique traffic & around 3k traffic per day (extremely consistent & hands free now). The last couple of years I've rarely updated my sites, other than SEO & testing new things. Keep in mind I'm in a very small sub-niche, but I dominate that sub-niche.

      This isn't build it and they will come, this is a heck of a lot of upfront work. Here's how to create yourself an out so you can eventually stop posting free files on the single forum thread.

      This is key to long term traffic...

      Get as many other forum members to join in & start posting their own free content, in your case free samples of royalty free music. You want the thread to eventually be maintenance free on your part but still be a very active forum thread. Don't worry about any competition on the forum thread, most will only post 1 or 2 files & move on, that's where your consistent posting of new files creates authority.

      That's the basics of my strategy for niche download sites.
      Man, this sounds really great. And believe me, I don't mind putting in the work, I can easily upload 3 to 5 tracks per day without blinking an eye.

      Unfortunately, a lot of what you're saying is over my head or is something I am having trouble pinpointing.

      For example, royalty free music itself is not a sub niche. There is royalty free dance music, orchestral music, country music, music for videos, audio books.

      I mean I know music is music but royalty free music is such a broad term in itself. I'm not sure if going to a forum (assuming I can even find one that will allow me to do such a thing) will give me that degree of a breakdown.

      Granted, at this stage I have no clue and will obviously have to research what's out there. If I find something that I think matches what you're saying and they allow uploads, I will certainly do it. I honestly don't know what I'm looking for and if I find it would I even recognize that I have found it.

      Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't know enough right now to know whether or not I've actually found real gold or just iron pyrite. And the last thing I want to do is go someplace, think I can do something when I get there only to find out I can't and get tossed out of the place. A lot of forums have very strict rules about what you can and can't do.

      But yes, this is certainly another thing I can research and hopefully find a little spot in the sand for. I don't need much. Even just one custom score a month is $12,000 a year which is more than enough to get me over the hump.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Man, this sounds really great. And believe me, I don't mind putting in the work, I can easily upload 3 to 5 tracks per day without blinking an eye.

        Unfortunately, a lot of what you're saying is over my head or is something I am having trouble pinpointing.

        For example, royalty free music itself is not a sub niche. There is royalty free dance music, orchestral music, country music, music for videos, audio books.

        I mean I know music is music but royalty free music is such a broad term in itself. I'm not sure if going to a forum (assuming I can even find one that will allow me to do such a thing) will give me that degree of a breakdown.

        Granted, at this stage I have no clue and will obviously have to research what's out there. If I find something that I think matches what you're saying and they allow uploads, I will certainly do it. I honestly don't know what I'm looking for and if I find it would I even recognize that I have found it.

        Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't know enough right now to know whether or not I've actually found real gold or just iron pyrite. And the last thing I want to do is go someplace, think I can do something when I get there only to find out I can't and get tossed out of the place. A lot of forums have very strict rules about what you can and can't do.

        But yes, this is certainly another thing I can research and hopefully find a little spot in the sand for. I don't need much. Even just one custom score a month is $12,000 a year which is more than enough to get me over the hump.
        You could make royalty free music a sub niche, you just have to find a large overall niche forum where those members would benefit from royalty free music.

        Example, If I was selling downloadable plans on how to build custom sub-woofer enclosures for cars/trucks, I would target the largest automotive forum on the net. The reason I would target a general automotive forum is because I'm selling sub-woofer plans for all kinds of cars/trucks, not just one Make/Model of car or truck.

        When I target a general subject niche forum I'll eventually end up with other forum members building links on other sub-niche forums (ex: Camaro forums, Mustang forums, Honda forums, etc...). This way you stay laser focused on the largest vehicle forum where just about everyone interested in vehicles is a forum member.

        When people are interested in a niche, they usually sign up for multiple same/similar niche forums. So... when you build a single massive quality forum thread your drawing attention to content that all forum members can share with each other without you having to even ask them to promote your product.

        Again, the key to long term sustainable niche forum traffic is to get other forum members involved in the single forum thread where all your free files are hosted. Don't ever consider other forum members that are posting their own similar content on the single forum thread as competition because when they post their files, they're drawing attention to your own massive list of files that you posted. So basically anytime someone else post on the single forum thread they're promoting your content. I hate to use the word bump, but that's exactly what they'll be doing, bumping a thread. The thing is it's not you bumping a thread for self promotion, it's other people creating/posting similar content because they're sincerely interested in the subject/niche.

        My advice is don't come across as a seller on the niche forum, focus on branding, get people familiar with what your best known for (ex: royalty free music). I think most people can sniff out the difference between someone just trying to make a sale & someone that's actually interested in the niche/subject. Have fun with it.

        Also don't be afraid to take request for content from other forum members looking for something specific, that helps draw in more forum traffic because other members will see you helping people. People that are new to a niche are usually stuck at some problem & need help, If your helping them they probably won't ever forget you. So... when it comes time for traffic to buy a similar product (something better than the free content) they'll most likely remember you & your website, internet shortcut icon in free file hosted on the forum that they've downloaded in the past (repeat traffic + branding).

        Again, I average 7 downloads per unique traffic on my own sites so that's a lot of branding going on. Think about big brands like Coca-Cola, or McDonalds, we see them everywhere, everyday, they're in our face all the time, that's good branding.

        The end goal with all this is to make that one forum/thread a massive hub for people to get great content (that's where the traffic is hanging out). Obviously you'll need to pay attention to the forum rules, each forum is different. If your providing a great source of content directly on the forum you should be fine.

        This doesn't have to be an only source of traffic, I have niche forum traffic & still target SEO. BTW, don't ever consider forum links as SEO, forums are better suited for direct same niche traffic sources. Don't ever come across as spammy, I'm not suggesting you would ever do that just want to be clear for anyone else reading this comment. Think quality.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          You could make royalty free music a sub niche, you just have to find a large overall niche forum where those members would benefit from royalty free music.

          Example, If I was selling downloadable plans on how to build custom sub-woofer enclosures for cars/trucks, I would target the largest automotive forum on the net. The reason I would target a general automotive forum is because I'm selling sub-woofer plans for all kinds of cars/trucks, not just one Make/Model of car or truck.

          When I target a general subject niche forum I'll eventually end up with other forum members building links on other sub-niche forums (ex: Camaro forums, Mustang forums, Honda forums, etc...). This way you stay laser focused on the largest vehicle forum where just about everyone interested in vehicles is a forum member.

          When people are interested in a niche, they usually sign up for multiple same/similar niche forums. So... when you build a single massive quality forum thread your drawing attention to content that all forum members can share with each other without you having to even ask them to promote your product.

          Again, the key to long term sustainable niche forum traffic is to get other forum members involved in the single forum thread where all your free files are hosted. Don't ever consider other forum members that are posting their own similar content on the single forum thread as competition because when they post their files, they're drawing attention to your own massive list of files that you posted. So basically anytime someone else post on the single forum thread they're promoting your content. I hate to use the word bump, but that's exactly what they'll be doing, bumping a thread. The thing is it's not you bumping a thread for self promotion, it's other people creating/posting similar content because they're sincerely interested in the subject/niche.

          My advice is don't come across as a seller on the niche forum, focus on branding, get people familiar with what your best known for (ex: royalty free music). I think most people can sniff out the difference between someone just trying to make a sale & someone that's actually interested in the niche/subject. Have fun with it.

          Also don't be afraid to take request for content from other forum members looking for something specific, that helps draw in more forum traffic because other members will see you helping people. People that are new to a niche are usually stuck at some problem & need help, If your helping them they probably won't ever forget you. So... when it comes time for traffic to buy a similar product (something better than the free content) they'll most likely remember you & your website, internet shortcut icon in free file hosted on the forum that they've downloaded in the past (repeat traffic + branding).

          Again, I average 7 downloads per unique traffic on my own sites so that's a lot of branding going on. Think about big brands like Coca-Cola, or McDonalds, we see them everywhere, everyday, they're in our face all the time, that's good branding.

          The end goal with all this is to make that one forum/thread a massive hub for people to get great content (that's where the traffic is hanging out). Obviously you'll need to pay attention to the forum rules, each forum is different. If your providing a great source of content directly on the forum you should be fine.

          This doesn't have to be an only source of traffic, I have niche forum traffic & still target SEO. BTW, don't ever consider forum links as SEO, forums are better suited for direct same niche traffic sources. Don't ever come across as spammy, I'm not suggesting you would ever do that just want to be clear for anyone else reading this comment. Think quality.
          Okay, here is my question. Most music forums are attended by people who create their own music. So what exactly am I gaining in going to one and uploading my material to it? Certainly nobody there will download the pieces other than for curiosity sake. But they certainly won't ever become my customer if they're doing exactly what I'm doing whether they compose for stage, screen, commercials or whatever. The bottom line is they would have no use for my music.

          So is this simply to build up that thread as an authority thread for royalty free music so that Google will index it and people who ARE interested in royalty free music (outside of the forum attendees) will go to this forum JUST to be able to download this material?

          Is that basically it?
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          • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
            Steven,
            It's pretty simple!
            Audio and video is all about one thing: EMOTION
            Audio and Video are like partners who are looking for a perfect match
            When I make a sad video, I want SAD music for that video
            When I make a scary video, I want SCARY music for that video
            When I make a funny video, I want FUNNY music for that video
            When I make a mysterious video, I want MYSTERY music for that video
            etc...
            Categorize your music in emotions: sad, scary, funny, mystery, etc ...
            Keywords I would use to find you?
            How about these ...
            Royalty free music for a sad movie (for a sad video, for a sad short video, etc...)
            Royalty free music for a scary movie (for a scary video, for a scary short video, etc...)
            Really, it's that easy!
            IMHO, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING FOR!
            Get that right before you do anything else.
            And get rid of that "Instruments: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Pedal Steel Guitar. Tempo: Fast. Description: Drums, bass and rhythm guitar kick this one off. Lead pedal steel comes in after intro. Good uptempo country tune."-type of discription. NOBODY will read that, nor will it attract any visitors from search engines (even if you would be #1 on Google's SERPS page 1)
            Good luck!
            Stefan
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

              Steven,
              It's pretty simple!
              Audio and video is all about one thing: EMOTION
              Audio and Video are like partners who are looking for a perfect match
              When I make a sad video, I want SAD music for that video
              When I make a scary video, I want SCARY music for that video
              When I make a funny video, I want FUNNY music for that video
              When I make a mysterious video, I want MYSTERY music for that video
              etc...
              Categorize your music in emotions: sad, scary, funny, mystery, etc ...
              Keywords I would use to find you?
              How about these ...
              Royalty free music for a sad movie (for a sad video, for a sad short video, etc...)
              Royalty free music for a scary movie (for a scary video, for a scary short video, etc...)
              Really, it's that easy!
              IMHO, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING FOR!
              Get that right before you do anything else.
              And get rid of that "Instruments: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Pedal Steel Guitar. Tempo: Fast. Description: Drums, bass and rhythm guitar kick this one off. Lead pedal steel comes in after intro. Good uptempo country tune."-type of discription. NOBODY will read that, nor will it attract any visitors from search engines (even if you would be #1 on Google's SERPS page 1)
              Good luck!
              Stefan
              Sure thing. I'm gonna go through 5,000 database records and remove all the track descriptions.

              It's on my to-do list.

              PS - For the record, the number 3 royalty free site on the Internet does just that and it works fine for them.
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              • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Sure thing. I'm gonna go through 5,000 database records and remove all the track descriptions.

                It's on my to-do list.

                PS - For the record, the number 3 royalty free site on the Internet does just that and it works fine for them.
                I took note of your sarcastic remark.
                After all, you know what you're doing and I am not!
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
              Steven,

              I'm not really sure how to take your reply to Stefan but the vibe I get is negative and/or sarcastic.

              For whatever it's worth, I think that this one is worth thinking about along with some of the other replies unless you are going to totally abandon your current site/setup and do only exercise videos.

              When I went to your site I was putting myself into the mindset of a person needing this kind of thing because they are creating their own videos or webinars or whatever. It wasn't hard because I am going to be needing some of this fairly soon.

              So I clicked on some of the menu items and I got descriptions like this:

              Instruments: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Pedal Steel Guitar, Violin. Tempo: Moderate. Description: Classic country sound on this one with short intro and pedal steel guitar taking lead. Violin joins in during bridge and continues playing harmony throughout rest of song. Great for genre video.


              As a person that needs some music intros but not very experienced in this area as far as picking out the music myself, I have no clue what all this means.

              What I'm looking for is something motivational or inspirational. I want people to feel empowered and that they can do this thing (the topic of the product I'm talking about). I want them to regain hope. Etc.

              In other words I need descriptions like Stefan was mentioning not using words or descriptions that make me leave hoping that someone else can help me buy what I need.

              My two cents.

              Mark


              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Sure thing. I'm gonna go through 5,000 database records and remove all the track descriptions.

              It's on my to-do list.

              PS - For the record, the number 3 royalty free site on the Internet does just that and it works fine for them.
              Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

              Steven,
              It's pretty simple!
              Audio and video is all about one thing: EMOTION
              Audio and Video are like partners who are looking for a perfect match
              When I make a sad video, I want SAD music for that video
              When I make a scary video, I want SCARY music for that video
              When I make a funny video, I want FUNNY music for that video
              When I make a mysterious video, I want MYSTERY music for that video
              etc...
              Categorize your music in emotions: sad, scary, funny, mystery, etc ...
              Keywords I would use to find you?
              How about these ...
              Royalty free music for a sad movie (for a sad video, for a sad short video, etc...)
              Royalty free music for a scary movie (for a scary video, for a scary short video, etc...)
              Really, it's that easy!
              IMHO, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING FOR!
              Get that right before you do anything else.
              And get rid of that "Instruments: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Pedal Steel Guitar. Tempo: Fast. Description: Drums, bass and rhythm guitar kick this one off. Lead pedal steel comes in after intro. Good uptempo country tune."-type of discription. NOBODY will read that, nor will it attract any visitors from search engines (even if you would be #1 on Google's SERPS page 1)
              Good luck!
              Stefan
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            • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
              Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

              Steven,
              It's pretty simple!
              Audio and video is all about one thing: EMOTION
              Audio and Video are like partners who are looking for a perfect match
              When I make a sad video, I want SAD music for that video
              When I make a scary video, I want SCARY music for that video
              When I make a funny video, I want FUNNY music for that video
              When I make a mysterious video, I want MYSTERY music for that video
              etc...
              Categorize your music in emotions: sad, scary, funny, mystery, etc ...
              Keywords I would use to find you?
              How about these ...
              Royalty free music for a sad movie (for a sad video, for a sad short video, etc...)
              Royalty free music for a scary movie (for a scary video, for a scary short video, etc...)
              Really, it's that easy!
              IMHO, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING FOR!
              Get that right before you do anything else.
              And get rid of that "Instruments: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Pedal Steel Guitar. Tempo: Fast. Description: Drums, bass and rhythm guitar kick this one off. Lead pedal steel comes in after intro. Good uptempo country tune."-type of discription. NOBODY will read that, nor will it attract any visitors from search engines (even if you would be #1 on Google's SERPS page 1)
              Good luck!
              Stefan
              Stefan,

              I agree totally....

              This goes 100% along with Steve Krug's legendary book...

              Don't Make Me Think Don't Make Me Think

              There is no need to "go through 5,000 database records and remove all the track descriptions" as Steven thinks...


              He simply needs to tag or categorize songs by "Emotion." This is dead simple even a basic CMS like WordPress. If his CMS doesn't support multiple tags or categories, he needs to switch...

              I see tags or categories for....

              Emotion...

              Beats Per Minute (as Kurt mentioned)....

              Genre (Hip Hop, Rock, Polka, etc.)....


              Plus, many others...

              Yes, it is work... But, time well spent....

              If a song isn't worth investing 20-30 seconds to tag or categorize, it should removed....

              Bottom line...

              You must make it as easy as possible for people to find what they are looking for, download it and buy your products...

              As soon as you "make them think," they click away to a "competitors" web site.

              All The Best,

              Rich Beck BCIP, MCSD, MCIS
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Okay, here is my question. Most music forums are attended by people who create their own music. So what exactly am I gaining in going to one and uploading my material to it? Certainly nobody there will download the pieces other than for curiosity sake. But they certainly won't ever become my customer if they're doing exactly what I'm doing whether they compose for stage, screen, commercials or whatever. The bottom line is they would have no use for my music.

            So is this simply to build up that thread as an authority thread for royalty free music so that Google will index it and people who ARE interested in royalty free music (outside of the forum attendees) will go to this forum JUST to be able to download this material?

            Is that basically it?
            Music forum members are NOT your customer profile. Video makers and marketers are. I'd say most are male.

            Having some experience in this area is why I suggested making exercise music. The health and exercise niche is FAR bigger than the video marketing niche. And I'm sure there's plenty of health and exercise related forums.

            I'm guessing the profile for buying music for exercising would be female, 25-45 or so, interested in health and exercise. This is just a guess and I could well be wrong.

            In addition to the other resources above, I'd also guess Pinterest may work for this niche if my customer profile is correct.
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            • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              I do know my customer. My customer is looking for music that is suitable for the video or other project they are working on that they can use royalty free. I already even know what kind of music they're downloading most (rock, metal, electronic) for their needs.

              But as I said, I've been told, and the stats back this up, my music isn't enough. Google wants to see content. Without that content, I won't get traffic because my site won't be relevant in Google's eyes. I personally think it's BS but again, the stats back this up. My site is going nowhere.

              I'd consider writing Google and asking them what THEY want me to put on my site, but I know I won't get a response.

              FWIW, take a look at the top RFM sites on the Internet. You won't find article and videos clogging up the works. But this is what I've been told I need to do. It has nothing to do with my customers who will probably ignore the articles and videos anyway.
              Hi Steve, I've been wondering what happened to you.

              About putting content on your site (I know, there was a lot of argument about this, but I think SOME content might be good). I.e., as someone suggested, a few articles and videos about...

              What is royalty free music and what people can use it for
              What music goes with what?
              Maybe a tutorial on how to add it to a site and/or a video
              Categories of music and/or how to find the perfect music for your needs...
              Oooh, and also connect royalty free images with royalty free music and compare and maybe come up with ways to make videos using both.
              And so on.

              It'll be Google bait and link bait too.

              Next, put similar articles and videos (and audios/podcasts) all over the web. Write a few PDFs and put them on places like scribd and so on.

              Get out a bunch of Press Releases. One of my favorite free ones is PRLog.org (though I do have to say that the results of the paid version are better). Also, WebWire.com if you do have $24.95 or so.

              Create a couple of tutorials and put them in tutorial sites.

              And so on.

              Oh, and I skipped the page 2 replies, so if it's already there, please forgive me, but I haven't read much about Facebook (or FB ads). You can do quite a bit with very little money on Facebook.

              Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

              I don't think it is that hard to think up some content to either put on this site or on feeder sites.

              Where can I find royalty free music?
              Why should I use royalty free music?
              Where can I find music for my YouTube videos?
              Will YouTube delete my video if I add a song to it?
              What kind of music can I use with YouTube?
              What happens if I use a popular song in my video?

              This is just junk I thought of in about 30 seconds. I would brainstorm what kind of questions people who have a need for royalty free music might have and create content around that. You could do these as separate articles or as a giant FAQ.
              Exactly. Great advice.

              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Thanks Mike. Those are the kind of ideas I'm looking for. Would an article explaining exactly what royalty free music is help as well? I think a lot of people are under the impression that royalty free means free, which it does not.
              Indeed they do. Ditto with royalty free images. Some info is in order, and you could become one of the authorities on what's what. Write some stuff and place it in strategic places, including your own authority blog on the issue (to be built, I assume).

              Originally Posted by spearce000 View Post

              Looks like PPC could be your only option, then.
              Actually, I'd suggest Facebook ads. And Twitter, and linkedIn. And LinkedIn is a great place for articles! Just write an occasional article on one of the above topics.

              Originally Posted by d3communications View Post

              Let me echo the people who are steering you right: Find JV partners. Your service will not benefit from articles, etc. on your site*. Put together a few theme packages of royalty-free music (dramatic, uplifting, for background music in games/apps, etc.). Find people in the video production/content niche and do deals giving away your music (in packages, etc.) to build your email list. Market new packages to your list; sell subscriptions to your site in a membership-type deal. Sell affiliate (related) stuff to your list.

              All this assumes that your music is really high quality (that's the thing people have trouble finding...lots of royalty free, but a lot of crap to wade through.)

              *Having said that, you could do tutorials on HOW to put music into videos (or other uses)...for example, how to add a music track to Camtasia, how to choose the best music for a video sales letter, how to integrate music in the various video editing apps for ios, etc...stuff that is value-added for people who would be potential customers. Is there a beats-per-minute people should be using for sales videos vs. inspiration videos? You could also create your own YouTube vids featuring your music...maybe even go to fiverr and do gigs adding music to other people's videos...? It sounds like you have a valuable resource...partner with people who already have an audience that can benefit from what you have.

              d3.
              Great ideas! Actually, since you have all this music, you can come up with some Fiverr gigs easily. Could help with generating cash flow that'll help with the Facebook ads etc.

              BTW, I also love the WSO idea! And why don't you do one with some tutorials for using the music effectively. And then, don't forget the War Room! Why not put together a package and make it available there?

              Good luck, Steve!

              Elisabeth

              P.S.: I miss those niche packages you used to put together! I'm still making money with one of them (that one paid for all the packages I bought from you several times over)!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    Hello old friend, been a long time, I can help, I had a few ideas when I came visited your website, I can see some opportunity, need to ask a few questions, so will PM, great to see you back, I think its going to take more than just content though. )
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      Hello old friend, been a long time, I can help, I had a few ideas when I came visited your website, I can see some opportunity, need to ask a few questions, so will PM, great to see you back, I think its going to take more than just content though. )
      Thank you Tim. I appreciate any help you can give me.
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  • Profile picture of the author SantiSantana
    Welcome Back Mr Wagenheim. Glad to see you back. Without having the time to read all the other responses I will make my humble suggestion.

    If you created the music, write about it. An article per piece you done. Think radio Dj meets music producer. You can structure each article to talk about the resources used (readers of things like computer music magazine DJ Mag and so on like to know which instruments were used, sinths, effects...), themes, possible uses of the piece (this one is a march type so it would be good for an intro video or a fan made movie trailer) and so on.

    That alone on a piece by piece basis would give you a ton of material. On top of that you candivide your music by genres or uses or whichever way you prefer and then you can do an introductory/overview article for each section.

    PS: You could contact people like Videolean and other providers of video making material ( white boeard videos, animation and whatnot) to offer your scores alongside for added value. It could be that you don't need Google to make money, just the right partners for your product.

    I hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author samjaynz
    Maybe consider going more "niche" with your music. At the moment you have so many tracks covering so many styles ... and it feels a bit like you've gone for quantity over quality. Without wishing to be rude, as a reasonably deft musician myself some of the tracks sounded very much like what you'd expect from a Battle Of The Bands entry (with timing errors, cheesy lead lines etc).

    How about picking an application of music you really like ... such as "royalty free music for video game designers" and then build around that? This will let you focus more on quality, rather than quantity, and hopefully improve your results.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Well, after going through this entire thread again and making note of all the ideas (a lot of great ones that my head is spinning) I have decided to go with Kurt's idea for creating dance tracks for exercise albums for download. I think it will give me my best shot at generating some income.

      Kurt, I understand completely that you have no intention on helping me with this after our brief JV together. The problem there was that I was doing something I wasn't very good at, wasn't comfortable doing and didn't enjoy. Now I am in my element and will have no problem coming out with a quality product. That part isn't the difficult part for me. It's then coming out with a marketing plan, business model, whatever you want to call it. After I have all these tracks ready to go I'm really not quite sure how I'm going to go about getting it out there. I will read your responses again and hopefully there is enough info in them for me to be able to figure out exactly how to go about this after the music is all done.

      In the meantime, I have enough work to keep me busy in simply creating the tracks, about 230 of them if my math is correct. And they have to be top quality, so this is going to take some time. But I have a definite goal now. I will probably open up a Clickbank affiliate program and then go and contact weight loss and exercise sites for potential affiliates. I know this means having to come up with a killer sales page. I don't know where I'm going to come up with the money for that but I realize it has to be done if I'm going to have any hope of recruiting affiliates.

      Anyway, that's it for now. Time to get to work.
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      • I'd look at JVZoo over clickbank, get one album done then test the model before/while creating the others
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

          I'd look at JVZoo over clickbank, get one album done then test the model before/while creating the others
          Why JVZoo over Clickbank? What are the advantages?
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          • Instant paypal payments, no thresholds, no reductions in money due if you don't reach new thresholds.
            Fully automated system, lots of big affiliates, run by IMers and doesn't have the aura of 'old school' like clickbank does.

            IMHO
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

              Instant paypal payments, no thresholds, no reductions in money due if you don't reach new thresholds.
              Fully automated system, lots of big affiliates, run by IMers and doesn't have the aura of 'old school' like clickbank does.

              IMHO
              Is it similar to Rapid Action Profits? Because I already have that installed on my domain. Of is it an actual affiliate marketplace like PayDotCom which also pays through PayPal?

              Oh and one other thing. As a Vendor, am I responsible for paying affiliates like you have to if you use PayDotCom?
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              • Yes, an affiliate marketplace, I found paydotcom clunky and underpopulated, JVZoo hit all my buttons, I wouldn't use anything else for my stuff atm.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

                  Yes, an affiliate marketplace, I found paydotcom clunky and underpopulated, JVZoo hit all my buttons, I wouldn't use anything else for my stuff atm.
                  But do you have to pay your affiliates yourself. That is a real PITA.
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                  • no you don't that's all automatic.

                    You could set something up today, get affiliates today, sell today, you and affiliate get paid to your paypal today..

                    BUT - this is a decision you don't need to make today, and others will have opinions about which platform to use - your current next step is to get one or more albums made ;-)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    One other thing. I just read that with JV Zoo you have to manually approve your affiliates. I actually kind of like this because I don't want some jackass spamming the crap out of my domain and getting me blacklisted. On the other hand, this makes getting affiliates a slow process. I am basically going to be searching out people I can trust and essentially Affiliate/JVing with them, which is fine. But it's not like if you have a product at Clickbank with a 500 gravity and you're going to get everybody and their grandmother promoting you. I can't see that happening with a marketplace where you have to approve every affiliate.

                    Each has its pros and cons.
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                    • You have differetn options of approval, you can approve them for instant commissions if you know and trust them, you can set for delayed commissions if you don't know them. This menas you can approve affiliates right away and they can start selling right away.

                      Affiliates searching for products on JVZoo know and accept the delayed factor if they and seller don't know each other.

                      As it happens you can also autoapprove affiliates, although I wouldn't recommend that, it's just a function they offer, as is JV set ups

                      Unlike gravity at CB, JVZoo lets people see sales figures, set up in various bands of sales numbers
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

                        You have differetn options of approval, you can approve them for instant commissions if you know and trust them, you can set for delayed commissions if you don't know them. This menas you can approve affiliates right away and they can start selling right away.

                        Affiliates searching for products on JVZoo know and accept the delayed factor if they and seller don't know each other.

                        As it happens you can also autoapprove affiliates, although I wouldn't recommend that, it's just a function they offer, as is JV set ups

                        Unlike gravity at CB, JVZoo lets people see sales figures, set up in various bands of sales numbers
                        I take it you actually use JVZoo yourself. You're really happy with it?
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                        • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          I take it you actually use JVZoo yourself. You're really happy with it?
                          Yes. It has so many functions, or simple set up and go. They also have a superb FB group where the management answer questions, sort issues etc, but get back to sorting the albums!!
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                        • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
                          I just read through page two of this thread, and wanted to make a few more comments...

                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                          Thanks Bjarne, that is something like I have on my playlists, except my music is better.

                          But here's the problem with this BPM method...For example on this page:
                          Best Running Music of 2010

                          The slowest song is 144 BPM, while the fastest is 192. That's actually a big difference, and if you were exercising to this playlist, you would have to change your pace with each song.

                          Also, many of the songs probably don't have a consitent BPM throughout.

                          But it is a very good reference for this project...
                          I think that changing the pace with each song could actually be a plus… After all, it's become very obvious that interval training is a big key to things like weight loss (and also increasing fitness, at least some aspects of it). So offering these kinds of mixes could work really well.

                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          One other thing. I just read that with JV Zoo you have to manually approve your affiliates. I actually kind of like this because I don't want some jackass spamming the crap out of my domain and getting me blacklisted. On the other hand, this makes getting affiliates a slow process. I am basically going to be searching out people I can trust and essentially Affiliate/JVing with them, which is fine. But it's not like if you have a product at Clickbank with a 500 gravity and you're going to get everybody and their grandmother promoting you. I can't see that happening with a marketplace where you have to approve every affiliate.

                          Each has its pros and cons.
                          I agree that JV Zoo can work very well. Also, don't forget that you're a pretty well known guy on the Warrior Forum, and that there are probably lots of people who'd be happy to promote your stuff (give them samples).

                          Oh, yes, and JV Zoo is basically filled with WSO's and WF people.

                          P.S.: One thought that came to me about people who don't respond to your email…

                          It may not be personal. Try again. And again.

                          Just thinking of my "main" email account. I get more than 600 emails a DAY just in that one email account, and I open email from people who usually send me (or used to send me) selling emails only about 5% of the time max. And only if I have a current budget for buying some stuff, because otherwise it's too depressing to get offers of stuff I'd like and can't buy. And if any of them would send me a personal email, I would probably never find it.

                          I do have a "help" email for those purposes.

                          In fact, I've had people get mad at me because I didn't respond to their email. I need to seriously clean out my account so I can find people again. But in the meantime, I just wanted to add that extra perspective. So don't take it personally, and instead reach out repeatedly, and make the subject line really stand out, as in "Hey John, this is a PRIVATE email from Steve!"

                          I'd find that one sooner or later (especially if you'd send it more than once, actually forwarding it may be more effective), and would definitely open it.

                          Unless someone uses this subject line for a sales email...
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  • Profile picture of the author TopTier Profits
    Adapt or die.

    I've seen some of your past posts. Seems that your main problem is "adapting". Whilst this thread is a move in a positive direction, I feel you still have a LONG way to go.

    Good luck, you'll need it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by TopTier Profits View Post

      Adapt or die.

      I've seen some of your past posts. Seems that your main problem is "adapting". Whilst this thread is a move in a positive direction, I feel you still have a LONG way to go.

      Good luck, you'll need it.
      Thank you for your advice. In the meantime, I have finally put up an FAQ page and will update it with more questions as I think of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author serryjw
    I can think of 2 things that might help that I WOULD like to see as your visitor. 1)A lot of us have tried to add music to a project...So time consuming and tedious...HOW about a forum ( small WF) where I can post my project idea and people can recommend complimentary music.
    2) Introducing XXX artist..interview them. This could go on many site ( YT) besides yours. This will drive organic traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author onpointinfo
    Hi Steven...

    I love this ... this is truly a brainstorm think tank ! A Master Mind Group if you will !

    Anyway, now my 2 cents ! You know a lot of this stuff already, I am just touching on some basic stuff that can still kick butt and may be the winning combination added to another few strategies you decide to implement and execute.

    I strongly believe that " Writing 7 Seo Optimized 1000 Word Articles Weekly" is still your best bet since GOOGLE loves CONTENT PERIOD ! The question is - are you prepared to do the work, to provide content for your blog.

    If you write 5 1000 word articles per week x 4 weeks = 28 articles per month x 6 months = 168 1k word articles that is food for google, I would also mix some of the articles and make them into larger articles like 2k+ word articles, why you may ask so long ?

    Google favors long articles, considers them more valuable then 250/500 word length skimpy articles, especially when you write with Latent Semantic Indexing in mind ;>) Now find ways to repurpose these articles some how and make them work harder for you !

    At end of the day, you will have to decide what strategies you are going to use to drive traffic, but you are right about gaming the system with google, not worth it unless you are in for a quick hit and run, and if you just simply give google what it wants, which is written content, you can not go wrong with written content that your market is looking for, which means free traffic if yours site becomes an authority !

    Tip:

    * write down your 3 primary targets......... rock, metal, electronic

    * go to barnes nobles to do research on your market, go spend the day there and browse through books, magazines related to your market, they already have done the research for you and are writing content your market are interested in, and start jotting down kw ideas, also ideas on content for articles for your site, facebook , etccc

    * these magazines that you find that cater to your market, you can submit articles to them, a press release to get free additional exposure, and google news for more distribution opportunities

    * now go to google keyword research tool, start doing kw research with kw ideas you got from barnes nobles, root keywords to get plenty of ideas for content and create content around that

    * WRITE SEO OPTIMIZED CONTENT FOR YOUR SITE --- do not use skimpy 500 word articles, use articles in the 1000+ which google favor more these days, applying also LSI Tems in your articles to make it easier for google to serve your content to your audience

    You only have so many hours in a day, and no money to invest, content is food surfers online and google likes to serve content food to surfers looking for your content
    for your site, so out of the many great ideas here, create a list of pros and cons on paper for the ideas you are considering to help you formulate a better sound decision then roll up your sleeves and get busy ...let us know how it goes later on and what strategies you decided to use that actually KICKED BUTT FOR YOu :>)
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  • Profile picture of the author Tony Fairminer
    Hi

    The search engines like honest, genuine sites with content that is relevant and informative. So do your potential customers.
    Good reason to create a site that presents YOU to the world. The Music and Videos are just a product. You are unique. Sell yourself and your brand. Yes include information about the product but also some about yourself.

    Tony
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    Want to be a Millionaire? you must THINK like one.
    http://tonyfairminer.info/likes/rich

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  • Profile picture of the author samjaynz
    At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I'm going to repeat myself:

    I really think that the quality of the tracks on the site needs to be upped. Considering there are plenty of sites offering unlimited royalty free downloads for a couple of hundred clams or less (and that PLR is pro quality) your site is, at present, the knife at the gun fight.

    Focus on building quality across a narrow range of music types, and then promote to the kinds of people who NEED that music to make videos.
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    • Profile picture of the author GlenH
      Search out the high ranking sites in your niche (music; royalty free music - or whatever) and see if you can come to a deal with the site owners to provide high quality information for their site.

      Every site owner needs quality content for their sites, and if you can get some content on these high ranked sites, you'll generate some nice targeted traffic.

      Just an aside. These are just a few of the search terms that have been typed into Google

      Keyword
      royalty free music
      audiomicro royalty free music
      apple royalty free music
      amazon royalty free music
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      also sprach zarathustra royalty free music
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      royalty free music big band swing
      royalty free music binaural beats
      royalty free music bittersweet symphony
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      blue danube royalty free music
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      free royalty free music by danosongs.com
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      can i use royalty free music on facebook
      caribbean royalty free music
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      capo royalty free music
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      catholic royalty free music
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      coldplay royalty free music
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  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
    Steven, various thoughts in no particular order:

    • SEO on the site is poor - a page title like "Dance" won't help. If you've got the time/inclination build out a page per track with a good description, etc.
    • Fiverr: a bundle of tracks could work. And any other site your potential customers are likely to go - others have suggested Amazon, there are probably others
    • Put up a WSO. With your copywriting skills this should work OK. Searching Warrior Plus, sales vary but there's one from earlier this year with 500+ sales
    • Offer a free track in the War Room
    • Offer a free track in the Mind Warriors section - as others have suggested, royalty free music is used in that market and some will want tracks. That said, there's no search on your site and I couldn't work out where "trance" was (which is one of the phrases I'd be searching for in that market)
    • The site needs a search!
    • Think about putting an ad on Warriors for Hire.
    • Find out where people look for custom music and contribute to those forums prolifically and helpfully like you did here a number of years ago
    • $1.99 is too cheap for a package of tracks. I was expecting a price tag of at least $5, probably more
    • Follow people like Tiffany Lambert who are selling PLR article packages and morph the ideas/tactics across to the royalty free music arena
    • Not sure why you think YouTube isn't an option - a couple of videos on the first page for "royalty free music" with 100k+ views, several in the tens of thousands, others with multiple episodes on their channel
    With all the help in this thread and your track record of persistence, I'm sure you'll get back on track.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

      Steven, various thoughts in no particular order:

      • SEO on the site is poor - a page title like "Dance" won't help. If you've got the time/inclination build out a page per track with a good description, etc.
      • Fiverr: a bundle of tracks could work. And any other site your potential customers are likely to go - others have suggested Amazon, there are probably others
      • Put up a WSO. With your copywriting skills this should work OK. Searching Warrior Plus, sales vary but there's one from earlier this year with 500+ sales
      • Offer a free track in the War Room
      • Offer a free track in the Mind Warriors section - as others have suggested, royalty free music is used in that market and some will want tracks. That said, there's no search on your site and I couldn't work out where "trance" was (which is one of the phrases I'd be searching for in that market)
      • The site needs a search!
      • Think about putting an ad on Warriors for Hire.
      • Find out where people look for custom music and contribute to those forums prolifically and helpfully like you did here a number of years ago
      • $1.99 is too cheap for a package of tracks. I was expecting a price tag of at least $5, probably more
      • Follow people like Tiffany Lambert who are selling PLR article packages and morph the ideas/tactics across to the royalty free music arena
      • Not sure why you think YouTube isn't an option - a couple of videos on the first page for "royalty free music" with 100k+ views, several in the tens of thousands, others with multiple episodes on their channel
      With all the help in this thread and your track record of persistence, I'm sure you'll get back on track.
      Thanks Trevor. I want to respond to the search function because that one has really pissed me off about this whole site. I told my web designer to put in a search box. He said he couldn't do it. He said because of the way the database is setup to pull the tracks a standard search box wouldn't find anything.

      So this is what I'm stuck with. I myself don't know how to add a search box that would find whatever somebody is looking for.

      As for the tags, again, something I should do but don't know how to add to the existing setup. I have no clue and have no more money left in my budget to pay him to add it.

      The site is what it is and I have to make it do until I at least earn a little money to invest in making whatever changes are necessary because I don't know how to do them myself. If somebody here wants to make those changes for me for free I'm all ears. I seriously doubt I'll have any takers from anybody who I know and trust because I'm not just letting anybody touch that site. I worked to hard on it to have somebody come, hack it just to be a jerk, and leave me with nothing. It's happened to me before on another project and I won't let it happen again.

      PS - I just went to the Wordpress support site and made a post asking them how to add a search box to pull from WP eStore. Hopefully, they will tell me that it can be done in spite of what my web designer told me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Well, this is interesting. I just published my first article on my blog and it isn't showing up. So obviously the guy who designed this blog with this theme did something to disable posts from showing up and I have no idea how to override this.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Okay, I figured out a workaround for my problem of posts not showing.

          1) I create a static page just like my music categories and call it "Articles"

          2) On the page, I post the title of the article and a link to it.

          My question is this. If I do this, will these articles still be indexed even though they don't visibly show on the main page?
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          • Profile picture of the author trevord92
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Okay, I figured out a workaround for my problem of posts not showing.
            1) I create a static page just like my music categories and call it "Articles"
            2) On the page, I post the title of the article and a link to it.
            My question is this. If I do this, will these articles still be indexed even though they don't visibly show on the main page?
            That would work - Google will still pick up the links.

            Instead of directly linking, make the Articles page blank apart from the title (make sure it's a Page, not a post)

            Then go into the Settings part of your WordPress dashboard, select the Reading option then on the section that says Posts page select Articles from the drop down list.

            Tags, titles, etc can be sorted out with an SEO plugin such as the one from Yoast.

            Oh and remind your web designer that there's a search option built right into WordPress. It returns results based on the text of the whole page. There are fancier ones around but the default is workable.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

              That would work - Google will still pick up the links.

              Instead of directly linking, make the Articles page blank apart from the title (make sure it's a Page, not a post)

              Then go into the Settings part of your WordPress dashboard, select the Reading option then on the section that says Posts page select Articles from the drop down list.

              Tags, titles, etc can be sorted out with an SEO plugin such as the one from Yoast.

              Oh and remind your web designer that there's a search option built right into WordPress. It returns results based on the text of the whole page. There are fancier ones around but the default is workable.
              My web designer told me that the search option will NOT pull records from the WP eStore database.

              In other words, let's say somebody goes to the page "Electronic" and they want to find all electronic music that has the word "slow" in the description. According to him, the search function will not return all the database records within that page that have "slow" in the description and that is why he didn't include a search function.

              I don't know if this is true or not. I can only tell you what he told me and I haven't tried to insert the search function myself (not that I even know how to) because I don't want to mess the site up.

              Also, when I try to do as you said above, it won't let me because the way it's set up right now is Front Page displays latest posts. To be able to change it to posts page, I have to choose static page and I have no idea what that's going to do to my site if I choose that option.
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              • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                My web designer told me that the search option will NOT pull records from the WP eStore database.
                In other words, let's say somebody goes to the page "Electronic" and they want to find all electronic music that has the word "slow" in the description. According to him, the search function will not return all the database records within that page that have "slow" in the description and that is why he didn't include a search function.
                I don't know if this is true or not. I can only tell you what he told me and I haven't tried to insert the search function myself (not that I even know how to) because I don't want to mess the site up.
                Also, when I try to do as you said above, it won't let me because the way it's set up right now is Front Page displays latest posts. To be able to change it to posts page, I have to choose static page and I have no idea what that's going to do to my site if I choose that option.
                Not sure on that plugin but if it's in the post/page the regular WordPress search will pick it up, albeit not always too intelligently.

                The Settings side of things might be better explained by a screen shot:



                That's from my main blog - the main page has the post mentioned, the blog posts go on the imaginatively named Blogs page which - because I haven't excluded it from the menus - just appears in the menu structure.

                If your developer has done fancier stuff with the menus then you'll probably need to chat with them or find some other help that you trust to sort it out for you.

                In theory, it should be simple. But there are computers and humans involved in the process so that doesn't always happen in real life.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                  Not sure on that plugin but if it's in the post/page the regular WordPress search will pick it up, albeit not always too intelligently.

                  The Settings side of things might be better explained by a screen shot:



                  That's from my main blog - the main page has the post mentioned, the blog posts go on the imaginatively named Blogs page which - because I haven't excluded it from the menus - just appears in the menu structure.

                  If your developer has done fancier stuff with the menus then you'll probably need to chat with them or find some other help that you trust to sort it out for you.

                  In theory, it should be simple. But there are computers and humans involved in the process so that doesn't always happen in real life.
                  Right, where you have the image "Front Page Displays" yours has checked off "Static Page". Mine has checked off "Your Latest Posts". I don't want to change it to "Static Page" because I don't know what that will do to my site. With it checked to "Your Latest Posts" I can't access "Posts Page." It's grayed out.

                  ** Edit ** To answer your question about the search, no, the songs are all pulling from the WP eStore database and pulling to specially made pages for each category. If you go to my site you will see what I mean. None of these are posts pages, so the search won't pick them up.
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                  • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Right, where you have the image "Front Page Displays" yours has checked off "Static Page". Mine has checked off "Your Latest Posts". I don't want to change it to "Static Page" because I don't know what that will do to my site. With it checked to "Your Latest Posts" I can't access "Posts Page." It's grayed out.

                    ** Edit ** To answer your question about the search, no, the songs are all pulling from the WP eStore database and pulling to specially made pages for each category. If you go to my site you will see what I mean. None of these are posts pages, so the search won't pick them up.
                    Ok - time to chat with your web guy I guess.

                    But don't let all the techie stuff distract you from the excellent suggestions that have been made elsewhere in this thread.

                    Lots of support and lots to get your teeth into!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

                      Ok - time to chat with your web guy I guess.

                      But don't let all the techie stuff distract you from the excellent suggestions that have been made elsewhere in this thread.

                      Lots of support and lots to get your teeth into!
                      The problem with my web guy is he already told me "no can do". So until I can find somebody who can tell me different (assuming it's possible) I'm pretty much stuck with what I have.

                      As for the rest of the thread and the suggestions, yes, I'm already working on them. Wrote my first 1,000 word article today and will do one each day from now on. Eventually, the site will have quite a bit of authority, however long it takes.
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                      • Profile picture of the author trevord92
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        The problem with my web guy is he already told me "no can do". So until I can find somebody who can tell me different (assuming it's possible) I'm pretty much stuck with what I have.
                        As for the rest of the thread and the suggestions, yes, I'm already working on them. Wrote my first 1,000 word article today and will do one each day from now on. Eventually, the site will have quite a bit of authority, however long it takes.
                        Congrats on the article

                        And looking forward to the WSO/other stuff happening to get you back on your feet asap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    Hi Steve

    My suggestion focuses on the market you really desire to reach - people that need custom music. Okay, that means you want to target people and companies that already have the money to spend $1,000 on your service. Immediately what comes to mind for me is film and video production companies.

    There are small, medium and large production companies and producers that are in constant need of quality original music for commercials, movies, animated shorts and videos. When they start a new project they budget for music. They do not need to be convinced that they need music, just who to buy it from.

    I suggest that you create a demo compilation of high quality snippets of music and make it available for download, and put it on a DVD. Write a letter introducing yourself as a professional music composure who is a whiz at creating genre specific original music for entertainment production. Do not come across like you are trying to break into the market. You've been doing this for many years, so you are on their creative level.

    Send your letter (or email with download link) along with a free demo to these companies. Find emails for as many as you can since you are low on funds. This would put you in front of people that may want to hire you for a project, or pass your name along to a contact. At the very least, you could establish relationships in this market.

    There are lots of production companies in these cities: New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Toronto. There are also companies in Illinois, Florida, New Jersey and other states.

    Here are several resources that list companies with contact info:

    Film Production Companies Directory

    Georgia Production Companies Directory

    Illinois Film Production Companies

    Northwest Production Companies Directory

    I hope this helps you out. I agree with an earlier poster that you will succeed if you go where the money already is being spent and throw yourself in front of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author bangwhosnext
    Start building a targeted list; then you won't have to worry about article marketing, SEO etc.

    You may have to invest a little money to build your list though. Maybe try buying facebook ads and targeting music groups?
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  • Profile picture of the author visimedia
    Content is the king, and we all know now that the SEO world has changed a lot. Make user experience to be the number 1 priority to your website, and still wordpress is still the best.

    With the best user experience, your visitors will give you backlinks naturally, it'll make your site become high authority site all the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wizardofwisdom
    Your experience sounds horrible and scary - and I do appreciate the pride swallowing you did to write your post.

    If I may, I'd like to suggest that you may be looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope, so to speak.

    The result you want is traffic. But you're thinking is that the only source of that is organic Google traffic so you must play their game. (Which will take you ages - and probably for very little reward.)

    SEO is such a hard road!

    Why not, for example, put up a WSO for some of your royalty free music?

    Gather some affiliates and split the money - you'll have traffic and money in weeks, if not days. And you could then upsell to a membership model for more tracks, for example. Or just upsell to more "desirable" tracks - I don't really know the market, but you'll know what sells better than others.

    Start posting on video forums - there must be tons of people who need what you're offering.

    Add a track of yours to a funny video and post it on Facebook. (As well as Youtube of course.)

    I'm just brainstorming here ... and maybe some of this is talking through my hat ... but I'm trying to inspire you to think outside of this box. It sounds as though you're making a very hard road for yourself and I'm sure there's an easier, faster and probably more successful way than the one you believe you must travel.

    Think about the outcome you want, rather than the means of achieving it. That's all.

    Hope that helps.

    And best of luck!
    Trevor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Wizardofwisdom View Post

      Your experience sounds horrible and scary - and I do appreciate the pride swallowing you did to write your post.

      If I may, I'd like to suggest that you may be looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope, so to speak.

      The result you want is traffic. But you're thinking is that the only source of that is organic Google traffic so you must play their game. (Which will take you ages - and probably for very little reward.)

      SEO is such a hard road!

      Why not, for example, put up a WSO for some of your royalty free music?

      Gather some affiliates and split the money - you'll have traffic and money in weeks, if not days. And you could then upsell to a membership model for more tracks, for example. Or just upsell to more "desirable" tracks - I don't really know the market, but you'll know what sells better than others.

      Start posting on video forums - there must be tons of people who need what you're offering.

      Add a track of yours to a funny video and post it on Facebook. (As well as Youtube of course.)

      I'm just brainstorming here ... and maybe some of this is talking through my hat ... but I'm trying to inspire you to think outside of this box. It sounds as though you're making a very hard road for yourself and I'm sure there's an easier, faster and probably more successful way than the one you believe you must travel.

      Think about the outcome you want, rather than the means of achieving it. That's all.

      Hope that helps.

      And best of luck!
      Trevor.
      You know what the irony of all this is? My original business, which was very successful for many years, did not rely on SEO. In fact, you couldn't find any of my sites or sales pages through the SERPs if you tried. I did everything through articles on directories, some paid traffic, WSOs and JVs. Together, all those methods made for a nice income.

      So why all of a sudden do I feel I need to do things differently?

      It has to do with the niche itself. I've convinced myself that because I'm no longer selling "how to make money" products, the IMers here and at other forums won't be interested in my niche. They won't want to be affiliates, no matter how good the product. In short, I've convinced myself that I have nothing that anybody will care about other than the direct customers or Jane Doe who owns a NLP site looking for music for an NLP audio product.

      Maybe what I need to do is go back to thinking the way I used to think. I know articles on directories no longer work, but certainly a well written WSO sales letter and a solid product WILL work provided that there is enough of a market here for people looking for music tracks. And if not, maybe there are people here who would promote Kurt's dance CD idea as an affiliate.

      Maybe I don't have to count on people coming to my site in need of custom scores and hiring me to produce them, which is really no different than being a copywriter which I could have done but didn't want to get into because it's another one of those "you have to work or you make no money" niches.

      What lit my eyes up over this niche was my friend Kevin from Incomptech who makes $6,000 a month from people just clicking on the ads on his site. He doesn't even have to sell one track to do that. I figured I could do the same thing.

      What I forgot is that it took him 16 years to get to where his site is today. It didn't happen overnight. Yet for some reason I thought that within 6 months to a year I could be making at least a grand a month.

      In short, I was fooling myself and now I'm paying for it.

      So yes, I'm starting to work on my old business model but just with this new niche. I'm going to make those dance CDs just like Kurt says to make and recruit affiliates. If the product is good enough, I'll get them.

      Even though I am dead broke now, I haven't completely forgotten IM basics and the ironic thing is, if a student of mine came to me now with this same idea, I'd probably know just what to tell him. What's paralyzing is when you have to do it yourself and there's always that fear or failure in the back of your mind. And no, unlike a lot of people, it's not fear of success. I've had success. In fact, when my business started to tank I was like "WTF?" I couldn't accept what was happening to me. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it. So no, I'm not afraid of success. In fact, I'd be shocked if I didn't turn this niche into a modest money maker. I mean hell, I used to make $1,000 in half a week.

      I need to change my mindset about this whole thing. I need to go into it with a more positive attitude now that I've seen that this isn't going to be a case of "build it and they'll come" and do what I know I need to do in order to make this venture successful. And if it takes a year, it takes a year. I can't get all bent out of shape because I'm broke now. I've been there before. It's not the end of the world.

      Maybe this thread was just the kick in the ass that I needed to get off the pot and stop the pity party.

      Even if I'm not the greatest composer in the world and don't have the best music in the world, there is still a market out there for me.

      I just have to find it and tap into it.

      And you're right, I can't wait for Google to do it for me.
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      • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        Maybe this thread was just the kick in the ass that I needed to get off the pot and stop the pity party.
        This sounds more like you, and I think this thread *has* got your mental juices going!
        Up and 'at 'em!
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by The Great Gordino View Post

          This sounds more like you, and I think this thread *has* got your mental juices going!
          Up and 'at 'em!
          Yeah, I really do like Kurt's idea (God bless him) and can't wait to get those dance packages together. But I can't rush them. In need to do this right. These tracks have to be 100% solid, killer stuff.

          I'm really looking forward to the next 6 months. By this time next year I WILL have a successful business again. I have no doubt.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Yeah, I really do like Kurt's idea (God bless him) and can't wait to get those dance packages together. But I can't rush them. In need to do this right. These tracks have to be 100% solid, killer stuff.

            I'm really looking forward to the next 6 months. By this time next year I WILL have a successful business again. I have no doubt.
            Thanks...but I do think you should do both the exercise music as well as follow the model set up by your friend at Incomptech. IMO, the exercise music should be a different site/domain than the royalty free music site.

            Earlier, I said you should try to get a link everywhere Incomptech has one. This will help with both direct traffic as well as SEO. I also think you should try to build a list by offering some type of incentive, which is something Incomptech isn't doing.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Thanks...but I do think you should do both the exercise music as well as follow the model set up by your friend at Incomptech. IMO, the exercise music should be a different site/domain than the royalty free music site.

              Earlier, I said you should try to get a link everywhere Incomptech has one. This will help with both direct traffic as well as SEO. I also think you should try to build a list by offering some type of incentive, which is something Incomptech isn't doing.
              As I still have my Aweber account (yes, I kept it) I'm trying to think of what kind of incentive I could offer. I guess a free song pack. maybe 5 songs from each genre. All full length and quality stuff. That would come out to about 75 songs I'd have to create for the freebie but certainly doable.
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      • Profile picture of the author Darragh
        "My original business, which was very successful for many years, did not rely on SEO." - but that's not what you said in your original post. You said that you sank into oblivion because Google axed those article directories (because they were spun content and duplicate content and made no user the wiser if they'd find it a hundred times).

        If you are telling me that article marketing did not get you into the search results by virtue of backlinks (which have since been demoted), then you're telling me that the articles themselves drove the traffic to your site?! Now why would that have been? Because until Google deindexed these run-of-the mill unmoderated article directories, they figured themselves in Google's results and thus could be seen and that visibility in a second step must have driven traffic. So that was the effect of ... drum roll please ... SEO. SEO. SEO. Ok., enough duplicate content. You banked on SEO techniques that were not sustainable, but it was SEO that gave you results. And it will be SEO again, if you don't use paid traffic that will drive your traffic. There is, to my knowledge, no third thing that drives traffic. We all wished there was.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Hi Steven,

    It took a lot of guts for you to post this here. Hopefully we'll see a post in June or July saying how you turned this around and things are on the up.

    I have a more general question. How desperate are you? Do you need this income to survive, or are you comfortable?

    This will have a big impact on what would be the recommended course of action.

    If you need income then the best option is probably a full time or part time job. It isn't sexy but it will pay the bills - guaranteed. Work on the site in your spare time, and focus on one or two of your favorite methods given so far.

    If not then you can carry on full time, maybe trying out many more methods.

    It seems like you are looking for a proven method, someone to say 'yeah I owned a music site and I did this and it worked'. I don't think you will find it. I think you will have to try different things, fail a lot, and something will work then you can take off with that.

    But you don't need the pressure of having to get this to work by the end of Q2. That is where a job, savings, support from a partner or family member, or some other type of predictable income will come in.
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  • Profile picture of the author Katie Rich
    I ain't no big business brain,unlike many here, but have a suggestion.

    Many people - like me - would love to better use video, but have no idea how to add music to it or where to get that music from. I didn't even think about looking for royalty free music online - dumb huh! - so how about a WSO offering a number of tracks plus a video/text book on how to actually add them to videos? The tracks would pull in those who know how to use them and the information would bring in the newby video users who want to but don't know how.

    Plus this would be useful for other niches, my jewellery videos would be much nicer with music added.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Katie Rich View Post

      I ain't no big business brain like many here, but have a suggestion.

      Many people - like me - would love to better use video, but have no idea how to add music to it or where to get that music from. I didn't even think about looking for royalty free music online - dumb huh! - so how about a WSO offering a number of tracks plus a video/text book on how to actually add them to videos? The tracks would pull in those who know how to use them and the information would bring in the newby video users who want to but don't know how.

      Plus this would be useful for other niches, my jewellery videos would be much nicer with music added.
      Katie, if you were here right now I'd give you a big hug and kiss. That is a BRILLIANT idea. It's on my to-do list.

      Man, so many great suggestions in this thread. My head is spinning.
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  • Profile picture of the author najwa55
    Steven Wagenheim

    These are some of the points or items that may help in the processing of an article about the music that you write a paragraph for each item.

    BEGINNERS GUIDE
    "HOW TO MAKE IT INTO THE MUSIC INDUSTRY"
    1. LEARN TO WRITE A SONG.
    2.NEVER STOP PRACTICING YOUR INSTRUMENT.
    3.DESIGN SOME DECENT LOOKING PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL.
    4.PLAY LIVE AS OFTEN AS YOU CAN.
    5.COUGH UP THE MONEY TO REGISTER YOUR SONGS WITH THE COPYRIGHT OFFICE.
    6.LEARN WHAT MANAGERS DO BY DOING MANAGEMENT FOR YOURSELF.
    7.GET ACQUAINTED WITH ANY LABELS OR PUBLISHING COMPANIES YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN.
    8.TAKE ADVICE ONLY FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE TALKED THE TALK AND WALKED THE WALK.
    9.DON'T USE JUST ANY ATTORNEY FOR LEGAL ADVICE.
    10.EDUCATE YOURSELF LEARN ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS.
    11.How Can You SELL YOUR MUSIC?
    12.The basics about Digital Music Download's.
    13.Reasons Why A Band Needs A Website.
    14.Your Guide To Getting Your Music On Different Online Sites.
    15.Understanding The Industry Of Selling Your Own Music on iTunes and other Online Sites.
    16.The Facts About Getting Your Music With iTunes.
    17.Steps On Getting Your Music On iTunes.
    18.Learning How to Get Your Song on iTunes.
    19.Learning How to Get a CD Distributed Without a Major Label To Succeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Steven,

    Right now, you have a SERIOUS security issue on your site.

    I don't want to explain it in a public post, so I sent you a PM.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Steven,

      Right now, you have a SERIOUS security issue on your site.

      I don't want to explain it in a public post, so I sent you a PM.

      John
      Thanks John. Got your PM. Don't know how to fix it and my web guy is worthless so I can't go to him.
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      • Profile picture of the author Katie Rich
        Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

        Steven,

        Been reading your thread and if you need help with WordPress (WP) I will be happy to help you free of charge. Please understand that I can do almost anything WP wise and also explain to you how to do almost anything if you want to do it yourself, but my time is limited unless I schedule work ahead of time. At present, my turn-around time is 20 to 24 hours for complicated tasks.

        You have helped a lot of us over the years, so I am happy to help you if I can. Please understand that I can not do everything, so there may be times I will tell you that upfront, so there are no misunderstandings.

        You are always welcome to contact me at my support desk and I'll let the staff know to contact me, priority, if you use it.

        Jeffery 100% :-)
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Thanks John. Got your PM. Don't know how to fix it and my web guy is worthless so I can't go to him.
        That's how ^
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Katie Rich View Post

          That's how ^
          Katie, I've contacted him and hopefully he can handle my problem.

          We have some really great members here. I haven't forgotten that, which is why I came back in the first place.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Okay, I finished my first 90 BPM dance track for the exercise dance CD. I'd like some opinions on it but I don't want to post a link publicly. If anybody who I know wants to hear it, reply here and I'll PM you a link. You can post your comments publicly. I don't mind.

            Personally, I don't like dance mixes this slow and true 90 BPM is slow. I understand that exercise routines start at a slow pace. I have a treadmill downstairs in the basement and go through the standard workouts where they start you at crawling at 1 mph. I get it. I just don't personally like it. That's why I need an objective opinion on the track. I tried to mix it up over the 3 minutes so it didn't sound repetitious. I think I managed to achieve that goal. As for anybody would want to dance to this or not, I don't know. I wouldn't but that's just me. I prefer getting right into the heavy stuff.

            Anyway, if anybody wants a listen, just post here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
    Hi Steve,

    Thought you might be interested in seeing this products that is sold via JVZoo: tunespack

    It was released yesterday and has already sold 250+ copies. It is currently a JVZoo top seller. Just goes to show that there truly is a market for you to sell your music in.

    Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author Victor Edson
    Hey Steve,

    I see you really hurting for help, so here's few methods that can easily get you out of this pickle.

    Method #1
    If your site isn't getting much traffic and you don't have money to buy it, forget every failure and do what you know works, has worked for you and will work again. Write articles that help people learn about who, what, how and why they need to use your site, buy your songs or anything else you want them to do.

    Remember, Ezine articles wasn't an authority site on day 1 either. It took tens of thousands of articles to get them there.

    And the only way you can take a site from 0 to hero with FREE traffic is by creating content and sharing it. So create social media profiles and create some content that's going to help people LEARN about WHY they need your songs and HOW they can do it.

    Most importantly, do some SEO for your site. Do keyword research, create quality content, and then create more quality content on other sites pointing back to it. Don't complicate it, just create lots of fresh content and the Google will reward you. Just like it did before, it's waiting for your content again.

    Method #2
    Answer this question the best you can... What's the biggest impact someone like me or ANYONE else on the warrior forum could have working with you? Imagine if I spent $1,000 with Steve Wagz rot noaw........ what could you do for me?

    Could your techno beat increase optins for a video squeeze page of mine?
    Could your smooth jazz increase sales .5%?

    Cause right now... if you can do that... many marketers here have no idea about it. So why not show your skills and do some pro bono work for a few marketers in exchange for having them promote your service... only if you help them increase conversions with a sweet melody?

    Offer the full sha-bang in exchange for 10 marketers and you'll get traffic. You'll get $1.99 downloads and you may even get a few $1,000 pay days too.

    You're dead right about needing to focus on selling your high end services, and that's the best way to do it, right here on the warrior forum you love so much... just flex your beats and show us if it works or not....

    then....

    Method #3
    Create your WSO about how you increased conversions for people with one simple trick. Inside explain how you put music to video and increased sales or optins for marketers who weren't using it and anyone else can do the same. Include a link to your site to purchase music and create an email follow up sequence to offer your high end service.


    If you follow these 3 methods in order and start working towards promoting your site you can do a lot more than $5,000 this year. You need traffic, method 1. You need quality buyers, Method 2. You need another income stream, Method 3.

    There's no need to over-complicate it, ya know?

    But if you're not sure about it, you still struggle with it, or you just want an easier way to make some money while you get it going... why not write for money? I'm sure you're capable of writing $12-$15 articles in less than an hour?

    Even if you don't have money for another domain, you can set up a free site on blogger, ning, weebly or any other free platform and put a PayPal button on it for free. Then drop a line in your warrior sig and you're off to the races posting here and networking with old friends to drive traffic to a very in demand service.

    Most Importantly....

    Don't waste another second worrying about what another, successful site is or isn't doing. They probably have advertising fees you can't afford right now, so just focus on building a niche site the way it works. Create content and rank it, network to sell your high end products and then reinvest your money.

    Hopefully what you just read make perfect sense and you can start taking action in the right direction.

    I commend you for not giving up, and I wish you the best of luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Youtube announced an interesting upcoming feature where they will allow people that create cover songs to monetize those videos. This is something virtually all musicians should keep an eye on...

    Click the link for more info...I can't get the video to embed.
    http://youtu.be/jR8XBZRkkao
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Youtube announced an interesting upcoming feature where they will allow people that create cover songs to monetize those videos. This is something virtually all musicians should keep an eye on...

      Click the link for more info...I can't get the video to embed.
      YouTube Creator Preview - YouTube
      Correct me if I'm wrong but from watching the video I get the impression that what he means by cover songs is doing a cover of an established well known song like say "Stairway To Heaven" and uploading it to YouTube. Am I off base on this?
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    This may have been suggested already, but what about putting together a small package of free music for marketers, and giving it away in the War Room? Use it to build a list of users.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      This may have been suggested already, but what about putting together a small package of free music for marketers, and giving it away in the War Room? Use it to build a list of users.
      Gary, I may just do that once I've gotten things together and have some kind of funnel in place to help monetize the package. I need to have a plan. Until I do, I'm going to hold off on that.

      The good news is, for the most part, I do have a business model now that I'm proud of. I don't have to make people outlandish promises to sell what I'm selling. It's probably the first time in 11 years that I really feel good about what I'm doing. Let's face it, the MMO niche has a very bad reputation and I was getting tired of being part of it. In a way, it was a blessing that my old business tanked because it was starting to get to me.

      Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely put it on the to-do list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Here's some food for thought. You know all those viral sites like
    • Viral Nova
    • The Chive
    • Upworthy
    • Distractify
    • Beforeitsnews
    • BoredPanda
    • (and about a million others)
    They get traffic because of the viral nature of their stories. The nature of something going viral is when people SHARE these stories on FaceBook, Reddit and Stumbleupon. The viral sites in turn make a killing in Adsense income.

    Following me so far?

    Okay, now I know RFM sites won't go viral but you can use the same concept. here are a few ideas for you to toss around.

    1. Allow 100% free downloads of any of your RFM but in order to unlock each tune they have to hit the Share Button. In turn you're getting traffic to your site that you can monetize with Adsense or other advertising. It's easier to get a click than it is to sell...

    and/or

    2. Another plausible idea would be to charge $59 a year for unlimited downloads. That works out to about $4.95 per month.

    and/or

    3. Upload sets to iTunes

    and/or

    4. Create bundles and offer PLR on them

    I don't know if you will go for any of these ideas but it's worth putting out there and maybe it will spark other ideas you could do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Here's some food for thought. You know all those viral sites like
      • Viral Nova
      • The Chive
      • Upworthy
      • Distractify
      • Beforeitsnews
      • BoredPanda
      • (and about a million others)
      They get traffic because of the viral nature of their stories. The nature of something going viral is when people SHARE these stories on FaceBook, Reddit and Stumbleupon. The viral sites in turn make a killing in Adsense income.

      Following me so far?

      Okay, now I know RFM sites won't go viral but you can use the same concept. here are a few ideas for you to toss around.

      1. Allow 100% free downloads of any of your RFM but in order to unlock each tune they have to hit the Share Button. In turn you're getting traffic to your site that you can monetize with Adsense or other advertising. It's easier to get a click than it is to sell...

      and/or

      2. Another plausible idea would be to charge $59 a year for unlimited downloads. That works out to about $4.95 per month.

      and/or

      3. Upload sets to iTunes

      and/or

      4. Create bundles and offer PLR on them

      I don't know if you will go for any of these ideas but it's worth putting out there and maybe it will spark other ideas you could do.
      Mike, thanks for the ideas. The problem with downloading anything off the site, and I have found this out the hard way, is that the Firefox download plugin allows everyone to just download the track for nothing already. So offering any kind of incentives or making tracks free is moot. They're already stealing everything. I've had thousands of downloads already.

      The only thing I can hope for as far as the site goes is that word gets around and more people come and maybe I get some custom score orders.

      But I'm already writing the site off as a loss leader and just a way to get some traffic and exposure.

      I think between Kurt's idea for the exercise CDs and the idea I got after getting Easy Sketch Pro (probably one of the hottest items at JVZoo right now) I'll make enough money to get me over the hump, even if I don't make the kind of money I used to. The good thing is, I don't have to. $12,000 a year will do it. That shouldn't be too hard.

      Don't worry. I have it mapped out what I'm going to do. I'm going to have an affiliate program for the exercise niche and that alone should easily make me a grand a month. I don't think that's asking for much. And I think it's very doable.

      I will keep everybody posted on my progress.
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  • Profile picture of the author JaysonH
    Steven,

    I have a few questions to ask before I can proceed.

    What is your end goal?

    I would assume your end goal would be to make money..

    What made you choose to set up a royalty free music site? It's quite hard to make money from something that is free.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    I'd suggest guest posting on IM websites because that's your target market. And more importantly guest posting on websites that concentrate on video production/YouTube.

    Guest posting will get your article where the target traffic is, and help you rank better in the search results.

    What Google want to see is websites in the right industry linking to you. What you really need is the right people looking at your articles, and clicking through as they're making videos. Guest posting should be perfect for you.

    Also I'd go with a few videos showing tiny clips of the different tracks, each linking back to the website. This will also help with SEO, while attracting YouTubers that are looking for music.

    Later maybe media buys on video creation and YouTube oriented sites would be a good move, though of course you'd need to watch the ROI like a hawk.
    Signature

    I write articles and eBooks - PM me for details!
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin Salter
    Steve

    Sorry to hear about your situation but you just need to recognise that you made it happen for yourself once and you can do it again. This time, focus on what works. Some awesome suggestions in here, particularly Kurt and John. Trying multiple options will get you out of the gate faster and concentrating down to what works.

    The fitness idea is prime and would set you up in a massive niche. The meditation and hypnosis route would also be a biggie if you got in with the right people and totally understand the marketplace.

    I personally use VideoBlocks.com as they offer Audio Royalty Free included, but they also run this site https://www.audioblocks.com/join/ which is just Loops, Tracks and Sound Effects. Take a look at their model. $79 per month or $89 per year! They also offer extended Royalty Free for $999 per year (you would need to check to see how far that rule extends). If you ran WSO's and JVZoo sales for annual membership with a good affiliate commission you could at least begin building up your revenue to invest back into more creation and or marketing as Kurt mentioned.

    Contacting potential JV's via sites like JVZoo and here on the Warrior Forum also makes a lot of sense. There have been royalty free packages launched with video, graphics and audio many times this past 12 months. Look them up and see if you can work with them or ask for a solo ad run offering up 75% or more in commissions to get your list going again in the right niche.

    Some other thoughts in addition to the great advice you already have in this thread!

    * Find some bloody good video creators, looping background creators etc and start your own VideoBlocks.com membership site as a joint venture. Then each of you can have your own "sister" sites linking off that if people only want audio, video etc.

    * Run searches in YouTube for Fitness, Work Outs, Excercise Routines. When you come across great videos with crap music, offer them your track for FREE to go with their video if they agree to put a link back to your subscription site in the listing notes.

    * Create a YouTube video guide on using their inbuilt video editor to add royalty free music etc. Sell it for $7 on JVZoo paying 100% commission then link to your site as an upsell for 5000 more RF tracks to use in your Video Creation with an annual membership, or pull together 50 great tracks and offer it as an upsell. Then link to your membership in the download and follow up emails.

    The other thing to keep in mind is how you can use YOUR product to make affiliate sales of other peoples products!

    * Find all the people who are launching RF video and graphics packages, video creation guides etc and then give away YOUR membership for a year for free as a bonus when they purchase via your affiliate link.

    The advice about targeting your core income of original scores is also a good one. It would not hurt to divide these two and have them as individual options.

    If you don't know how to make video products, shoot me an email (martin at iycltd.com). I will make you a 30 minute video for free and you can sell that on JVZoo with your RF music membership as an up sell, you just need to focus then on getting affiliates to promote it for you!

    Perhaps you can start a thread along the lines of "What would you most like to learn about video creation" Then your video product can be be based around that.

    Good luck and remember to spend more time on the doing rather than the reading here in the forum
    Signature

    Sharing some posts worth reading over on Facebook

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by trevord92 View Post

      If it was me, I'd do a slide show of royalty free images that fitted with the mood of the score I'd written.

      Probably with wording that essentialy said "hire me".
      That's not a bad idea. Do you know any good sites that have RF images that are free? I'm kind of tight for funds right now and purchasing enough images to create a whole slide show would be tough for me right now.

      Originally Posted by Martin Salter View Post

      Steve

      Sorry to hear about your situation but you just need to recognise that you made it happen for yourself once and you can do it again. This time, focus on what works. Some awesome suggestions in here, particularly Kurt and John. Trying multiple options will get you out of the gate faster and concentrating down to what works.

      The fitness idea is prime and would set you up in a massive niche. The meditation and hypnosis route would also be a biggie if you got in with the right people and totally understand the marketplace.

      I personally use VideoBlocks.com as they offer Audio Royalty Free included, but they also run this site https://www.audioblocks.com/join/ which is just Loops, Tracks and Sound Effects. Take a look at their model. $79 per month or $89 per year! They also offer extended Royalty Free for $999 per year (you would need to check to see how far that rule extends). If you ran WSO's and JVZoo sales for annual membership with a good affiliate commission you could at least begin building up your revenue to invest back into more creation and or marketing as Kurt mentioned.

      Contacting potential JV's via sites like JVZoo and here on the Warrior Forum also makes a lot of sense. There have been royalty free packages launched with video, graphics and audio many times this past 12 months. Look them up and see if you can work with them or ask for a solo ad run offering up 75% or more in commissions to get your list going again in the right niche.

      Some other thoughts in addition to the great advice you already have in this thread!

      * Find some bloody good video creators, looping background creators etc and start your own VideoBlocks.com membership site as a joint venture. Then each of you can have your own "sister" sites linking off that if people only want audio, video etc.

      * Run searches in YouTube for Fitness, Work Outs, Excercise Routines. When you come across great videos with crap music, offer them your track for FREE to go with their video if they agree to put a link back to your subscription site in the listing notes.

      * Create a YouTube video guide on using their inbuilt video editor to add royalty free music etc. Sell it for $7 on JVZoo paying 100% commission then link to your site as an upsell for 5000 more RF tracks to use in your Video Creation with an annual membership, or pull together 50 great tracks and offer it as an upsell. Then link to your membership in the download and follow up emails.

      The other thing to keep in mind is how you can use YOUR product to make affiliate sales of other peoples products!

      * Find all the people who are launching RF video and graphics packages, video creation guides etc and then give away YOUR membership for a year for free as a bonus when they purchase via your affiliate link.

      The advice about targeting your core income of original scores is also a good one. It would not hurt to divide these two and have them as individual options.

      If you don't know how to make video products, shoot me an email (martin at iycltd.com). I will make you a 30 minute video for free and you can sell that on JVZoo with your RF music membership as an up sell, you just need to focus then on getting affiliates to promote it for you!

      Perhaps you can start a thread along the lines of "What would you most like to learn about video creation" Then your video product can be be based around that.

      Good luck and remember to spend more time on the doing rather than the reading here in the forum
      These are all great suggestions. Here's where I need your help. Obviously to do all the above would take months if not years and be impossible to do all at once. So if you had to pick just one item above to start with, which one would you pick because I'm having a difficult time choosing one. So many sound so good.

      Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author trevord92
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        That's not a bad idea. Do you know any good sites that have RF images that are free? I'm kind of tight for funds right now and purchasing enough images to create a whole slide show would be tough for me right now.Thanks.
        The one I use was called Stock Exchange and is now imaginatively called Free Images.

        Different levels of use are allowed depending on the image creator but the "standard restrictions" one is what you need.

        They make their money from selling stock photos and they're now owned by Getty so I've always assumed the checking for whether or not it's OK to use should be good because of that.
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  • Profile picture of the author vikash_kumar
    Hi Steve,

    At some point in time, you were the inspiration for all of us, who were new in the field of Internet marketing at that time.

    All I can see that the words, now which you are using, are all negative in nature and with this mindset, I am not very sure...How you will achieve ...what you are trying to achieve.

    I am not very sure, why you have chosen this niche...when you were not very sure about this. You have had mastery in several aspects of Internet marketing as such. Why not to create a coaching program or at least be in that field as such with the same mindset, which was there at the time when you were super successful.

    In the last few years, I have learned from this forum only that you should learn and earn by doing things related with your passion and that is where the long term success one can expect.

    My only request will be, change your mindset first, follow you passion once again. You already know these things which have been suggested in this thread to you. You just have to remind yourself that you can do it very easily.

    As far as this site is concerned, I will recommend you to not depend upon Google at all. As someone said earlier in this thread only, they are a doomed venture just because of their ego and position in this industry. They are losing us by not responding to our questions. They take all one sided actions without our wrong intentions. they don't even bother that we are creators and majority of us our best to give what people need.

    However, Create a list...Use Facebook, Twitter and Pinterest, Linkedin with relavent people. If you want to invest money, just invest in to create a huge list who are somewhat interested in your product as such. they will become your long term real assets. If the product is good, they will suggest your site by themselves, if not they will suggest you to change your product.

    I hope, this will help you. Please excuse me, if I am wrong somewhere. I really respect your toughness and zeal to come back with a bang!

    Best Regards,
    Vikash
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Vikash:

      There is no way I could not reply to this and I'll say this as nicely as I can. You are making a lot of assumptions with your reply, mainly that Internet marketing in the MMO niche was my "passion." It never was. It was just a means to an ends. It made me money.

      Music has been my passion since I was 3 years old. I am now 56. This is the first time in my life that I am seriously trying to make money with my music. I've waited way too long as it is.

      Okay, so there is nothing wrong with my mindset. I am not being negative. I have a definitive four pronged attack plan for this niche thanks in part to some of the helpful people here who aren't trying to pigeon hole me into a niche that I now have nothing but disdain for.

      I know you mean well, but you are so far off the mark it isn't funny.

      I am DONE WITH MMO. I am going to make my music business succeed and it WILL succeed.

      If you don't agree with me, at least be happy for me.

      Originally Posted by vikash_kumar View Post

      Hi Steve,

      At some point in time, you were the inspiration for all of us, who were new in the field of Internet marketing at that time.

      All I can see that the words, now which you are using, are all negative in nature and with this mindset, I am not very sure...How you will achieve ...what you are trying to achieve.

      I am not very sure, why you have chosen this niche...when you were not very sure about this. You have had mastery in several aspects of Internet marketing as such. Why not to create a coaching program or at least be in that field as such with the same mindset, which was there at the time when you were super successful.

      In the last few years, I have learned from this forum only that you should learn and earn by doing things related with your passion and that is where the long term success one can expect.

      My only request will be, change your mindset first, follow you passion once again. You already know these things which have been suggested in this thread to you. You just have to remind yourself that you can do it very easily.

      As far as this site is concerned, I will recommend you to not depend upon Google at all. As someone said earlier in this thread only, they are a doomed venture just because of their ego and position in this industry. They are losing us by not responding to our questions. They take all one sided actions without our wrong intentions. they don't even bother that we are creators and majority of us our best to give what people need.

      However, Create a list...Use Facebook, Twitter and Pinterest, Linkedin with relavent people. If you want to invest money, just invest in to create a huge list who are somewhat interested in your product as such. they will become your long term real assets. If the product is good, they will suggest your site by themselves, if not they will suggest you to change your product.

      I hope, this will help you. Please excuse me, if I am wrong somewhere. I really respect your toughness and zeal to come back with a bang!

      Best Regards,
      Vikash
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      • Profile picture of the author vikash_kumar
        You are making a lot of assumptions with your reply
        I agree that I have made lots of wrong assumptions based upon the limited knowledge I had about you. Please accept my apologies. My intention was not to hurt you by any means.
        Music has been my passion since I was 3 years old. I am now 56
        I know for sure, You will become super successful with this niche as your soul is closely aligned with this niche.
        I know you mean well
        My Intentions were right, However thanks for your assertive response.
        I am going to make my music business succeed and it WILL succeed.
        I am 100% sure that you will succeed and I will be one of the first person who will be happy for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    My fellow marketers. It took a lot of pride swallowing to come here and make this post considering at one time I was a fairly successful marketer. In short, Google slammed the article directories and my business model crashed. End of story. So I had to start all over.

    This January I put up a royalty free music site. In the almost 5 months since, traffic is about the same. I get about 150 unique visitors a month. The site has lots of music on it. By the end of this week it will have 5,000 tracks.

    But I've been essentially told that the music is meaningless. That if I want to get more traffic I need to put articles and videos on my site as well. I tried to logically wrap my head around this. Why would somebody coming to a royalty free music site looking for music to download to use for their own videos or whatever have any interest in reading articles or watching videos? It made no sense to me. So I ignored the advice.

    Well, 5 months later I can see that these people were probably right. So I am going to do just that. I am going to write articles and make videos and put them up on the site.

    The problem is, I have no idea what to write or what kind of videos to make. Again, none of this made any sense to me so I am clueless as to what people would want to read and see and for that matter what Google would consider relevant so that I can get more traffic.

    Please help. I am not looking for a handout. Just some suggestions. I have made all over $300 this year after a $5,000 year last year. I am desperate. I will do the work. I just need to know what I have to do in order to make this site successful.

    Thank you for your help. Again, this wasn't an easy post to make.
    It depends on the market.

    If you're selling only to musicians who do digital mixing at home, write reviews about the hottest new music equipment coming out. Or, videos of popular artists' who have written songs or produced albums using a specific piece of hardware or software. Then again, you might be selling to entrepreneurs and marketers who need background music.

    Either way, you need to start with some solid knowledge of who is reading. Answer the who, and the what becomes a no brainer.
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  • Profile picture of the author SmithTim
    Thanks for sharing useful information. keep it up
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  • Profile picture of the author ecoverartist
    Is your customer actually marketers who are looking for music for their videos/presentations? That's the impression I get. If that's the case, I'd reach out and partner with presentation-building services like Animoto and the sites listed here: 6 Animoto Alternatives - TechShout -- give them a few tracks for their customers and then include a link back to your site where customers can get more (or more customized versions).

    I'm wondering why both of your threads have one star reviews. There's a lot of good, solid info in here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by ecoverartist View Post

      Is your customer actually marketers who are looking for music for their videos/presentations? That's the impression I get. If that's the case, I'd reach out and partner with presentation-building services like Animoto and the sites listed here: 6 Animoto Alternatives - TechShout -- give them a few tracks for their customers and then include a link back to your site where customers can get more (or more customized versions).

      I'm wondering why both of your threads have one star reviews. There's a lot of good, solid info in here.
      Thanks for the tip. I will definitely check the site out. As to the answer to your question, haters gonna hate.
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  • Profile picture of the author youvana
    Well Steven I'd say with the recent mass interest in scribe type videos ie, VideomakerFX and Easy Sketch Pro then you have a massive market for your audio tracks. Why not reach out to some of the developers and see if you can do a JV deal or get a bonus on their back end? I'd also use Youtube too to drive traffic to your site...I'm sure you'd do pretty well here in the WSO section with a good bunch of affiliates behind you. It does seem daft to stick a load of additional unnecessary content on your site...if primarily it's a shop..it's just those feeder sites you want to be interested in as other marketers have mentioned.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Youvana Humpme View Post

      Well Steven I'd say with the recent mass interest in scribe type videos ie, VideomakerFX and Easy Sketch Pro then you have a massive market for your audio tracks. Why not reach out to some of the developers and see if you can do a JV deal or get a bonus on their back end? I'd also use Youtube too to drive traffic to your site...I'm sure you'd do pretty well here in the WSO section with a good bunch of affiliates behind you. It does seem daft to stick a load of additional unnecessary content on your site...if primarily it's a shop..it's just those feeder sites you want to be interested in as other marketers have mentioned.
      Actually, that is exactly what I am going to do. I will eventually contact the developer of Easy Sketch Pro and see if we can't work out some kind of deal as I hear the music that comes with the software is pretty bad. I haven't listened to it myself (I bought the software as well) but I'll take the word of the person who made the comment.

      I have 4 sub models planned for my business. I am sure at least one of them is going to take off if not more than one.

      They're as follows:

      1) Music downloads - I am not giving up on this but it's probably the least likely for success.

      2) Custom Scores - I think as my reputation builds I will get more of these. Will probably be slow going to start.

      3) Easy Sketch JVs and Custom Work - This is my #2 go to money maker. I think there is a huge market here for JVs with the creator and other markers and also a market for creating videos for other marketers.

      4) Dance Tracks For Exercise Sites - This will probably be my big hit. Essentially, I sell dance packages for exercise buffs to work out to, all with certain BPMs for each group of tracks. I offer an affiliate program giving 75% commission and watch it take of.

      As you can see I have everything well planned. I just need the time to actually implement all of this. Creating the music is the most time consuming part. But once all of that is in place, I can begin the marketing part.

      It's going to take time, but I'm not going to rush this. I'm going to do it right this time so that I end up with a long term business that I don't have to worry about crashing and burning because of some Google change.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
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