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14 years ago

Hi Brian,

Nice call, I totally agree.

Sorry if I keep banging the same 'initiative' drum at the moment, but I would add to your list of reasons about why this isn't acceptable, that we are used to a higher level of initiative here.

Nickel and dime fraud is for losers with a small-picture mindset.

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Nickel and dime fraud is for losers with a small-picture mindset.

That's right, learn to think big -- aim for at least six-figure fraud.

(Sorry -- couldn't resist! )
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- rapidscc 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by KenStrong
  
  That's right, learn to think big -- aim for at least six-figure fraud.
  
  (Sorry -- couldn't resist! )
  
  Hahaha! atleast you'll be rich before you're caught! just kidding!
  
  oMar
  
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InternetMarketingIQ

14 years ago

At some point people have got to learn and understand like in any business there are fundamental steps to success (Primarily having a plan and executing the plan consistently). Greed and a get rich quick mentality will get you nowhere, and it will get you there fast. There are NO shortcuts, there is no FREE LUNCH.

Online Marketing/Online Sales is a real world business that depends on a customer on the other end making a purchase. The customer can be a contextual advertisers, a CPA company (Someone is buying the leads from them), a person with a credit card, etc.

People that understand this will figure out how to leverage it. Most people will fail because they simply can't write the plan to begin with.

Scams are scams and the Net seems to have a disproportionate number of scammers and people willing and ready to buy into the hype.

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OSContent

14 years ago

Originally Posted by InternetMarketingIQ

Online Marketing/Online Sales is a real world business that depends on a customer on the other end making a purchase. The customer can be a contextual advertisers, a CPA company (Someone is buying the leads from them), a person with a credit card, etc.

This really captures the essence of the problem that most new Internet marketers encounter. I won't fault them for it completely because I think it's easy to be overwhelmed by the possibilities when you're green and you're introduced to flashy sales pages that claim you can earn millions overnight-- even if you have no relevant skills or knowledge.

When it comes down to it, though, there has to be a customer on the other end somewhere. And I think many new Internet marketers don't really consider that. For whatever reason, it seems like that doesn't need to be the case on the Internet. They just picture money pouring into their Paypal accounts from anonymous individuals who have no interest gaining any tangible value from what they have spent; or from careless advertisers who don't pay attention to whether or not they are getting any type of return.

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Cynthia A.

14 years ago

Originally Posted by OSContent

This really captures the essence of the problem that most new Internet marketers encounter. I won't fault them for it completely because I think it's easy to be overwhelmed by the possibilities when you're green and you're introduced to flashy sales pages that claim you can earn millions overnight-- even if you have no relevant skills or knowledge.

When it comes down to it, though, there has to be a customer on the other end somewhere. And I think many new Internet marketers don't really consider that. For whatever reason, it seems like that doesn't need to be the case on the Internet. They just picture money pouring into their Paypal accounts from anonymous individuals who have no interest gaining any tangible value from what they have spent; or from careless advertisers who don't pay attention to whether or not they are getting any type of return.

I agree. Some people will purposely turn a blind eye to all kinds of things (Black Hat especially) if it means they might make some money.

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CmdrStidd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by OSContent

This really captures the essence of the problem that most new Internet marketers encounter. I won't fault them for it completely because I think it's easy to be overwhelmed by the possibilities when you're green and you're introduced to flashy sales pages that claim you can earn millions overnight-- even if you have no relevant skills or knowledge.

That is the same thing I complained about in another thread some months back and I was told then that "it is what sells these programs. After all, who wants to buy a program that says Work hard and in 6 months you could be making $XYZ when you can see an ad that says Become a multi billionaire while you sleep.

We have to start getting honest in our own advertising. If anyone is out there complaining about these scams but you are advertising the while you sleep methodology, you are committing a scam too so who are you to throw stones?

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sixcore Banned 14 years ago

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- Kim Standerline 14 years ago
  
  lol a one liner post in a thread about fraud etc
  
  Love it
  
  Kim
  
  Originally Posted by sixcore
  
  Thank for the great post... I don't think that a fraud that a good idea...banzai..
  
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Jeremy Kelsall

14 years ago

I agree, but you will always have people that buy them...therefore you will always have people that sell them

YOu would think that the forum itself would outright ban FRAUD.

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

YOu would think that the forum itself would outright ban FRAUD.

Maybe it's assumed that Warriors shouldn't need to be told that fraud is bad.

Forum admins would need to request a copy of every WSO and inspect and test it before approving it for sale... don't think that's really practical.

People who buy a WSO are allowed to post feedback in the thread... if someone thinks a particular WSO they bought is promoting fraud, just say so. I don't think the "wrecking a WSO" defense should hold water in those cases.
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edhan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I agree, but you will always have people that buy them...therefore you will always have people that sell them

YOu would think that the forum itself would outright ban FRAUD.

It is always so dismay to hear people are doing such scam to earn money. Such short term profit gets no where as it can be easily discovered and put to an end. Everyone has the right to point out and put a stop before it hurts too many innocent people who want to have a decent earning. We all should work together and weed out those unwanted sort of business. Learn the right way of earning good and decent income. It will go a long way instead of short term benefit with such fraud.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Kanus,

Don't answer those questions, I don't care what the answers are, I'm asking the questions to prove how difficult of a solution moderating these products would be.

You are not proving anything - merely asserting it.

Having moderated here for a long time, I can tell you that handling these is relatively simple. If it's advertised as "black hat," in the sense of being unethical or in violation of the TOS of the involved site(s), it will be removed when it comes to the attention of the appropriate people. If it's not clearly advertised as such, it will be removed when and if it's pointed out by the members.

There's nothing especially difficult about that.

Paul

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

....So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?....

So Roger, "How To Run A Brothel" is a bad thing?

So much for my next e-book idea.......

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Jeremy Kelsall

14 years ago

I personally think that you should be able to send in a support ticket if a WSO is fraud, have it suspended until it is checked out...

Not only do some of the fraudulent products cause harm to advertisers, but a fair number of people also have their accounts suspended because the don't know how to cover their tracks -- which is never explained

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Ken Strong

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I personally think that you should be able to send in a support ticket if a WSO is fraud, have it suspended until it is checked out...

That's right, you used to see WSOs locked, but left visible, pending investigations... I'd like to see a return to that.

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Jeremy Kelsall

14 years ago

Well,

Originally Posted by KenStrong

That's right, you used to see WSOs locked, but left visible, pending investigations... I'd like to see a return to that.

I guess the only problem with that is, there is an asshole in every crowd that would abuse it.

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I guess the only problem with that is, there is an asshole in every crowd that would abuse it.

No, I mean it was Mods who did the locking (but based at least in part on member complaints).

I used to specifically look for locked WSOs just so I could read the hilarious comments the mod sometimes left (might've been Michael Tracey?)...
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- ExRat 14 years ago
  
  Hi Ken,
  
  That's right, learn to think big -- aim for at least six-figure fraud.
  
  (Sorry -- couldn't resist! )
  
  I didn't want to say that in front of Brian
  
  ...kidding...
  
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Richard Tunnah

14 years ago

I think there's a problem with people thinking saying 'blackhat' in their WSO means it covers actions that can and are classed as fraud.

Rich

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Pete Egeler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Tunnah

I think there's a problem with people thinking saying 'blackhat' in their WSO means it covers actions that can and are classed as fraud.

Rich

That's EXACTLY what BlackHat is. When you opt to go against the rules, TOS, what ever else you want to call it, you're indulging in fraud, no matter how much you try to rationalize it!

It's not "kinda wrong" or "a little wrong". Wrong, is wrong. PERIOD.

Pete

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

MKons,

Haha, gotta love the conspiracy theories.

No theory involved. Just the comment that there had to be a story behind it. You may note that, as written, that sentence assumed your statement was true.

Conspiracies, by the way, must involve more than one person. That's part of the meaning of the word. I suggested nothing of the kind. I am aware, however, of the intended connotations of the phrase.

Sloppy.

If you mean to suggest that I'm suspicious of such statements, you'd be correct. Only mildly so in this case, because the grouping suggested various sources of products, but still... A little suspicious. That happens when things don't seem to fit. It's a useful trait, as long as one doesn't treat suspicion as anything more than what it is: A form of curiosity.

Paul

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MKons

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you mean to suggest that I'm suspicious of such statements, you'd be correct. Only mildly so in this case, because the grouping suggested various sources of products, but still... A little suspicious. That happens when things don't seem to fit.
Paul

Nicely worded, haha. Yeah that is precisely what I meant.

I just fail too see whats so suspicious about my post

I can't believe that your friends/contacts never ask for advice re various "money making techniques". Never mind.

You obviously write better than me, and I got someone else (Martin?) 'suspecting' me. I guess I'll just stop posting here and move on to a different thread (yeah I read Martin's thread). :p

Good times

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Martin Luxton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MKons

Nicely worded, haha. Yeah that is precisely what I meant.

I just fail too see whats so suspicious about my post

I can't believe that your friends/contacts never ask for advice re various "money making techniques". Never mind.

You obviously write better than me, and I got someone else (Martin?) 'suspecting' me. I guess I'll just stop posting here and move on to a different thread (yeah I read Martin's thread). :p

Good times

It's not necessarily a post in itself that make you ponder. It's the whole context.

Martin

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by rjhere

LOL.. no.. that is not what blackhat is.. blackhat refers to SEO and was coined based on this.

Excuse me, but "black hat" comes from the hacker culture of the early 1980s. Not a lot of SEO going on then. It relates directly to the question of whether what you are doing is legal or ethical: either the activity is outright against the law and/or terms of service, or it would be if they knew what you were doing.
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LB

14 years ago

I purchased a WSO that actually said to post fake ads on Craigslist advertising puppies and then try to sell these people dog ebooks after informing them that you were "currently out of puppies".

ROFL

We hung that page on the office wall here for laughs.

This WSO actually had numerous positive reviews too...

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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

I've noticed (as I'm sure others have as well) a trend for threads to be started in the main discussion forum on how well some folks have done after buying a particular WSO. (There is one there now which smells a tad fishy).

Curious to note that these threads are usually started by someone with a very low post count and it's also darned sad to see those people blinded by hope who seem to throw caution and common sense to the wind and rush out to "invest" in the latest crap posted on there.

To be blunt the whole WSO forum is a mess, it must be an absolute nightmare for the admins to sort.

Kim

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Charles Washington

14 years ago

I think the admins have their hands full. They do a good job. Just brainstorming, what could the admins do to cope with the fraudulent WSO's and those posts in the main forums of how great a WSO is by newbies?

Admins did great removing the "Watch Me" threads a few months back. I guess they can get rid of the "This WSO is so great" type threads, as well.

I dont know if I would want the admins reading the WSO's before they were posted. I do not run WSO's, but I would be afraid that if too many eyes were on my WSO before it was released, some of the product might be stolen and compiled in another WSO by one of the admins. I'm not saying that would happen, it would just be a fear.

Kim, the WSO forum might be in a mess, but it is still a GREAT resource! Let's not make any drastic changes

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FredFarnes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

If I ran a WSO promising to make you at least $500 per day, or any amount you want, 100% guaranteed to make you money, would you be interested?

Yes, I was sucked into a $7 scam exactly like this recently;
"If You're Not Making $9000 Or MORE Every Month With CPA Then You Need To Read This!"

You're supposed to buy "guaranteed leads" from a company who will pay for people to enter their zip/email or complete a one-page form so you get the CPA revenue. This obviously rips off the CPA network, as well as the advertiser in that network.

The warrior received so much criticism that he shut the offer down. Out of principle, I asked for a refund, and never received a reply. No surprise, this warrior has no honor and does not stand behind his product.

I bet no-one is making $9000 a month with that business plan, and the poor warrior who took my $7 for the WSO must really need my money if he's flogging garbage like that (ie he's probably not making decent money from his own scheme)...

This is important here on these forums, especially for newbies: "If it sounds too good to be true, it really is". There are too many in this forum, ripping off the newbies with over-hyped promises of unrealistic dreams.

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flattop

14 years ago

I saw a video on youtube, where they were talking about $500 bucks right now, you get directed to some xxx.us site where they claim you will get all the information, so you are looking around and try to find the info, so you start clicking on the links and ads... Bam you have just created $500 income for the person who owns the page... I hate when people dupe me like that!

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Amy Bass

14 years ago

It is scary how much dangerous advice is out there on the internet. The Warrior Forum should be a place to trust, but it would take forever for the mods to have to read every ebook that goes up as a WSO. I do agree though, that they should be reportable as fraud if they are found to be recommending illegal activities.

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

I think the only thing we can do is post our comments on the wso thread just like you did Brian. I have made a few angry by doing the same thing but we need to help each other out. It isn't up to the mods to protect us but we must do it ourselves.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I think the only thing we can do is post our comments on the wso thread just like you did Brian. I have made a few angry by doing the same thing but we need to help each other out. It isn't up to the mods to protect us but we must do it ourselves.

Yes but...I've been banned here for two weeks recently for "spoiling another's WSO". So I'm very hesitant now to even post a comment if the stuff I've bought isn't up to scratch. The particular WSO I commented on was advertising a "High-Quality" product but in reality it fell far short of that criteria and in fact was written in "Engrish". I think the reason I probably got sin-binned was I gave the guy both barrels after he launched a personal attack on me. But I'd also commented on another WSO (currently supposedly one of the most popular) where I told the guy he was promoting fraudulent activity and was dishonest. My comment was removed and the WSO is still steaming along. Actually I'm still annoyed over my ban but what can you do. Even writing this comment has me worried that I'm "doing the wrong thing".

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

Agree wholeheartedly

I'm a tad surprised to be honest that the poster who was banned for posting a comment was banned, especially if he was giving a review of a product he had bought!

lol you must have said something really naughty

Kim

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Negative comments in WSO's have always been allowed, provided they're factual, not personally attacking the OP, objective and come from an actual buyer of the WSO.

Time was, members weren't afraid to stand up and comment in WSO's, positively or negatively - and the negative comments kept the BS WSO's down to a minimum.

I think Brian nailed it - folks, this is the Warrior Forum and the BS WSO's being posted are not an acceptable part of the culture here. As he said, let them keep that crap over at Dufus Point where it's acceptable and encouraged.

Remember - the fault is not with the WSO forum or how it's moderated; the fault is with how we as members use it, to clearly and defintively respond to products we've purchased there. As a group, we have the ability to send a loud message to those who would undermine the value of the WF.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Negative comments in WSO's have always been allowed, provided they're factual, not personally attacking the OP, objective and come from an actual buyer of the WSO.

Time was, members weren't afraid to stand up and comment in WSO's, positively or negatively - and the negative comments kept the BS WSO's down to a minimum.

I think Brian nailed it - folks, this is the Warrior Forum and the BS WSO's being posted are not an acceptable part of the culture here. As he said, let them keep that crap over at Dufus Point where it's acceptable and encouraged.

Remember - the fault is not with the WSO forum or how it's moderated; the fault is with how we as members use it, to clearly and defintively respond to products we've purchased there. As a group, we have the ability to send a loud message to those who would undermine the value of the WF.

So what's to be done about it? Because it really is out of hand, in my opinion. I've only been a paid-up member here for 6 months but I've been lurking for years. And I don't remember it as bad as this. It's almost like there is a thread on a BlackHat Forum saying "Hey Guys, here's how to make a fast buck out of those schmucks on the Warrior Forum".

I take your point when you say "provided they're factual, not personally attacking the OP, objective and come from an actual buyer of the WSO." I got most of that right except I told the guy he was dishonest. Result - two weeks in the Sin-Bin for you Lambe. Actually it wasn't too onerous. I managed to get more work done without the distractions of the WF. That reminds me...I've got copy to write. Thanks Big Mike! Love your work.

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- MKons 14 years ago
  
  I might be new here, but let me tell you - at the moment WF WSO section is considered "easy cash in your PayPal account" by many, many people (some forums have threads going about this).
  
  I think the biggest problem is that WF is a very popular IM forum, and therefore it attracts a lot of newbies. Newbies are cluesless, and it's a shame that their journey into the IM world starts with buying 3-7 bs WSOs.
  
  I get a lot of questions (skype, aim, email and in person) from people who want to know whether a certain wso/guide/blueprint is worth buying. And most of the time those programs/guides turn out to be complete bs, but how can those new to IM know what is bs and what isn't?
  
  Another observation - whats up with all the "how quick can I make money if I implement this technique?", "I need to make $1500 this month, have no IM exp., would this be a good guide to buy?" questions? Give them what they want, I guess... and it works. Thats why we're seeing so many scammy eBooks being posted every day.
  
  If I was to make a good, well thought out, no fluff or bullshit WSO - I'm quite sure I wouldn't sell many. Why? Also, why bother then?
  
  How much are people willing to pay for a good WSO? $10? $14? $25 tops! Why? Value for money you say? Value for money my ***. My time is worth a lot more than $20*100/2weeks. Go and buy ten $7/$10 WSOs, after all, it's all about how many you can buy for the least amount of money. Quick fix is there, somewhere... not.
  
  Whats with all the people asking for money making tips, good WSOs to buy, etc and then posting their own WSO just a week or two later? They don't even try to cover their tracks anymore. It's funny.
  
  sorry for a long rant
  
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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by StarFoxx410

Thanks for the Heads Up Bud

I hope your other posts will be better than the usual one liner that gets banned here, Bud.

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Jeremy Kelsall 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I hope your other posts will be better than the usual one liner that gets banned here, Bud.

Stop being mean to newbies, friend
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- Tom B Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
  
  Stop being mean to newbies, friend
  
  Sure thing, Stud.
  
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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I hope your other posts will be better than the usual one liner that gets banned here, Bud.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Review please

Lol...

After reviewing the situation per your request, I believe we my be infested
with trolls.

~Michael

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

After reviewing the situation per your request, I believe we my be infested with trolls.

Now, now, Michael. Thomas and Jeremy aren't trolls. A little odd, perhaps, but not trolls.

Paul
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- Jeremy Kelsall 14 years ago
  
  Well, I'm not so sure about Thomas, Paul. You might want to keep your eye on that guy
  
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  Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  Jeremy,
  
  Well, I'm not so sure about Thomas, Paul. You might want to keep your eye on that guy
  
  What? And go blind?!
  
  Gee, thanks, Jeremy. I thought you were one of the good guys.
  
  Paul
  
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  Tom B Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Jeremy,What? And go blind?!
  
  Gee, thanks, Jeremy. I thought you were one of the good guys.
  
  Paul
  
  That is what happens when you look at an angel, you go blind.
  
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  Tom B Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
  
  Well, I'm not so sure about Thomas, Paul. You might want to keep your eye on that guy
  
  Traitor.
  
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Younggates88

Banned 14 years ago

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Tenzo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Younggates88

Google is watching for this regardless but if you used another service you could make a ton. Its not a new idea people do pay per click and paid ads all the time. Just don't use adsense.

Or even better, don't do it. The thread isn't about not getting shut down by google, it's about learning to market instead of commiting fraud.

Regards,
Kevin

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Darrel Hawes

14 years ago

Darn it Brian, I think your thread title is a fraud.

I thought you were going to show us how to make a guaranteed $500 per day.

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Darrel Hawes

Darn it Brian, I think your thread title is a fraud.

I thought you were going to show us how to make a guaranteed $500 per day.

It's very simple -- you PayPal him $1,000 each day, and in return he guarantees to send you $500 a day.
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John Taylor

14 years ago

And John adds to the discussion with yet
another simple solution...

New WSO Rule:
"Blackhat" offers will NOT be approved.

John

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Jeremy Kelsall

14 years ago

Well,

Originally Posted by John Taylor

And John adds to the discussion with yet
another simple solution...

New WSO Rule:
"Blackhat" offers will NOT be approved.

John

There are plenty of "blackhat" techniques and strategies that are not only perfectly legal, but extremely effective...Not only that, people would still find a way to sell the types of offers that we are talking about just by altering their wording

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John Taylor

14 years ago

Jeremy,

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

There are plenty of "blackhat" techniques and strategies that are not only perfectly legal, but extremely effective...Not only that, people would still find a way to sell the types of offers that we are talking about just by altering their wording

Yes, I agree. However, this isn't a "Black Hat" forum.

There are lots of other forums that cater for that
market. This is primarily an Internet Marketing forum
and to maintain our position and reputation in the
business community I suggest we need to rise above
such practices.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

In my opinion, that line has been well and truly crossed
when we are allowing people to incite others to commit
fraud.

It won't take long to uncover the people who want
to try to slither under the rules.. simply provide honest
and objective feedback in any WSO thread where the
rules are being broken. They'll soon get the message.

John

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Jeremy Kelsall 14 years ago

I hear what your saying

Just with some things, it is a pretty fine line
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- John Taylor 14 years ago
  
  Jeremy,
  
  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
  
  Just with some things, it is a pretty fine line
  
  Nobody said it was easy.
  
  The line should be relatively easy to define.. If
  it contravenes a third party's Terms of Service
  it's not a suitable WSO.
  
  John
  
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Davmac40

14 years ago

Great article and I totally agree - crooks are crooks regardless what dressing you serve it with.

Davmac40

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ideasuniversity

14 years ago

Nice post. We should ban and delete those warriors from this forum

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Martin Luxton 14 years ago

How about a panel of 10 senior Warriors who get every WSO free?

It will be on a rotation basis. The first WSO of the day goes to panelists 1 and 2, the second goes to panelists 3 and 4, and so on. Panelists can recuse themselves from a particular WSO if it belongs to a friend.

In return for this they give a simple thumbs up or thumbs down on whether it's fraudulent or breaks any rules e.g. you have to double optin before getting your product.

Martin
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George Montagu Brown

14 years ago

Man those WSO's suck. I mean seriously, I've just stopped buying any that don't outright reveal what the method they're selling is.

George

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cyberchick 14 years ago

It is sad really to what length certain people go to get money. Scamming others is simply sick and I wonder how these people sleep at night. But then, we also have to blame ourselves for being so greedy, wanting fast riches and everything laid out on the golden plate.

If people weren't so blue-eyed and greedy, these scammers wouldn't stand a chance. In the end, we have to use our BRAIN to determine whether something sounds too good to be true.
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- TrevorB 14 years ago
  
  The other problem with this sort of fraud is that it is going to stop the CPA networks from offering us (the honest hard working warriors) the offers. We will all get tarred with the same brush.
  
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- GeorgR. 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by cyberchick
  
  we have to use our BRAIN to determine whether something sounds too good to be true.
  
  actually..i just read this like "BRIAN"
  
  As to our WSO - i don't have the nerve to start another endless debate with Brian.
  
  Needless to say i don't agree with Brian's opinion, ESPECIALLY in regards to his use of words like SCAM and FRAUD
  
  There is too much at stake, for people buying this WSO as well as for me as user of this forum. Since we CAN NOT give a 100% Guarantee in Regards to the WSO/method being allowed in ANY and ALL circumstances - we CLOSED this WSO.
  
  I still ask people to be careful with their judgement - especially if people judge a WSO/method they did not read before.
  
  When i/we posted the WSO i was (and still am) convinced that the WSO can be applied 100% legally as well as "black hat". <--- otherwise i would have never posted this WSO.
  
  Anyway, discussion over for me.
  
  Please have common sense before judging based on other people's opinion.
  
  G.
  
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- Eric Lorence 14 years ago
  
  One would think "Common Sense" the only tool needed to avoid these scams...
  
  One sure sign being the word "Guaranteed".
  
  We are the mod's, and things could be far worse as evidenced by he other big IM forums.
  
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milan

14 years ago

Brian, I remember when Allen Says banned one person when he found out the WSO was exactly what you say, scamming the CPA offers like this.

So I guess you should report the problem to Allen Says.

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milan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I"m trying to figure out how this is fraud. Its a little early and i havent had coffee yet, but this sounds a whole lot like what Get Paid to Complete Offers at CashCrate.com! does

The difference is that genuine offers don't want you to give the fake personal info, or data. Some offers agree that you give people incentive to sign up for the offer, but not to pay people to provide fake data.

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Steve Iser 14 years ago

WSOs used to serve as a good testing platform on metrics and interesting marketing concepts - pretty much all of them are absolute jokes now.
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GeorgR.

14 years ago

Since we CLOSED the WSO, here some Clarification so you KNOW what this debate is even about:

We had a WSO which dealt with people filling out CPA offers, using a service on a website.

The WSO pointed out that the method can be used black- or white-hat, depending on what kind of vendor you use, depedning on the terms of a particular vendor.

There are vendors which allow what is called "incentivizeable traffic" - and there are vendors which do NOT allow such traffic.

In the WSO as well as in the sales-copy, i pointed this out and i said that the method is NOT bound to a particular vendor - because the method (as i assume) works also with vendors who allow this traffic. Therefore CAN be black-hat, but don't have to be, and can be applied in a way which is 100% legal.

Brian Kindsvater even posted two VERY GOOD reviews after buying our WSO - as well as the other users who bought the WSO. Except a few who already knew the method, we got pretty good reviews. People also said its a good method because it also works with incentivizeable traffic since the vendors can be exchanged.

As it looks, Brian did some research....and/or he demanded we "proof" that the method being 100% legal for each and any vendor and CPA network.

He all of a sudden changed his opinion (after two really good reviews) and started using words like "scam" or "fraud".

First, he said we deceived buyers of your WSO with the screenshot. He said we deceive them because it implies to make money with this particular vendor, 100% legally.

We never said that. In the WSO i never focused on ONE vendor, actually pointed out a few times that the vendors are interchangeable.

So i blurred out the vendor names in the screenshot the next day to avoid such confusion (based on Brian's PM!) - and THEN brian makes it sound like i blurred the vendors out "to even more deceive buyers of our WSO". While i did it exactly for the opposite reason!

Now, judge yourself whether we are a bunch of "scammers"...

The only thing would maybe be the definition of "incentivzeable traffic" and possibly a mis-interpretation (or lack of knowledge on our side) since its 100% impossible to check against each and any vendor's terms.

From a certain point of view - i don't even think we are/were obligated to do this because nowhere in the sales copy or WSO we made a claim like this. There was no claim made that it is 100% legal, there was no claim it's all black-hat. It depends how you use the method, and it was posted and thought as a WSO which can be used both ways.

That's about it.

Georg.

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MKons 14 years ago

Georg,

I haven't bought your latest WSO, so I won't comment on it.

However, I did buy one of your earlier WSOs where you claim to have found "a great way to get cheap traffic using Adwords Search and make loads of money promoting cpa offers"... yet a couple weeks later you're here again, promoting a different WSO, claiming it's yet another "killer".

Here is what is wrong with how you go about things -

You are obviously not making a stable/consistent income using some of the systems that you describe. Please test the system out properly before selling a full blown guide on how to use it.

Nothing personal, really.
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GeorgR.

14 years ago

Mkons,

not entirely true. Shawn (my partner for this particular WSO) makes pretty good money with CPA.

Also..in regards to my other WSO with the cheap clicks...i am getting $0.06 and $0.07 clicks on search for pretty good keywords - so this WSO is very legit. I myself use it for some CPA offers which i promote, although Shawn makes more with CPA than i do

Also..i make a living of IM. Not millions, not enough for moving into a mansion in hawaii, but it pays my bills

As for the latest WSO...you are right with the testing. But this might not be always possible, especially when it comes to gray-zones of the law. (Shudder). However, its still a very far way to use words like "scam".

For me its a huge difference to say "your method might need more testing and validating of this or that claim"...or saying "you are scamming people".

IMHO Brian just overdid it with using those words.

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MKons

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

For me its a huge difference to say "your method might need more testing and validating of this or that claim"...or saying "you are scamming people".

Yea. Note I never said anything about your latest WSO (didn't buy it), or your previous one being a 'scam'. Just for the record

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Metronicity,

It's almost like there is a thread on a BlackHat Forum saying "Hey Guys, here's how to make a fast buck out of those schmucks on the Warrior Forum".

There are exactly such threads on some forums. There are also lots of Warriors saying the same thing, minus the word 'schmucks.'

The most recent that I've seen listed it as one of his 10 ways to get "fast cash." His recommendation: Sign up, make 10 posts (ooops) and put up a WSO.

MKons,

I get a lot of questions (skype, aim, email and in person) from people who want to know whether a certain wso/guide/blueprint is worth buying. And most of the time those programs/guides turn out to be complete bs, but how can those new to IM know what is bs and what isn't?

Hmmm. You've been a member for two weeks and people are asking you about WSOs? There has to be a story behind that one...

Paul

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MKons 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

MKons,Hmmm. You've been a member for two weeks and people are asking you about WSOs? There has to be a story behind that one...
Paul

Haha, gotta love the conspiracy theories.

Everyone on my contact list knows what I do, and when some of them decide to look into/start learning IM, they end up on a forum like this one or on one of the long sales pages they found through Google... and they get overwhelmed by the amount of 'info' on offer. So they ask for advice.

Mantas
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Martin Luxton 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

M
MKons,Hmmm. You've been a member for two weeks and people are asking you about WSOs? There has to be a story behind that one...

Paul

Paul,

No story.

You just have to read

The Idiot's Guide to Dominating The Warrior Forum.

Chapter 1: Become an expert in one week

Chapter 2: Become a guru in two weeks

Chapter 3: List of top defence lawyers and bail bondsmen

Martin
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rapidscc

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Metronicity,There are exactly such threads on some forums. There are also lots of Warriors saying the same thing, minus the word 'schmucks.'

The most recent that I've seen listed it as one of his 10 ways to get "fast cash." His recommendation: Sign up, make 10 posts (ooops) and put up a WSO.

MKons,Hmmm. You've been a member for two weeks and people are asking you about WSOs? There has to be a story behind that one...

Paul

Paul nice point!

Mkons Please explain..

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MKons 14 years ago

Originally Posted by rapidscc

Paul nice point!

Mkons Please explain..

Have you even read the thread? (Obviously not). Perhaps I too should troll around the forum sucking up to every member who has been here longer than me, that would get me loads of "thanked" and all...

Read a few posts above.

It's not necessarily a post in itself that make you ponder. It's the whole context.

Sure. You must be really bored... No I won't be selling a WSO (not in a hundred years), you are wasting your time here my friend :p
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- Martin Luxton 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MKons
  
  Sure. You must be really bored...
  
  Interesting assumption.
  
  Originally Posted by MKons
  
  No I won't be selling a WSO (not in a hundred years), you are wasting your time here my friend :p
  
  Perhaps so, my anonymous friend.
  
  Martin
  
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Eric Stanley

14 years ago

I just wanted to chime in on the said WSO. I know the exact method and it is indeed blackhat for one reason only. It is against the "servicing" website's TOS to use it as a tool to promote affiliate offers and have said person give up personal information. Does it work? Sure. Is it illegal, no. Frowned up and will get your account banned, most likely.

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xc-mikey

14 years ago

Could WF offer a cert of some sort, maybe for paying an extra $10, it can be reviewed by a special committee and voted on as legit or not. Maybe something along the lines of Hacker safe. It may help to provide a little protection in an otherwise unsafe internet world.

Take it one step above say CB so when I start promoting my "Six pack abs eating nothing but potato chips" program starts to sell, it will be accredited.

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MKons 14 years ago

Originally Posted by xc-mikey

Could WF offer a cert of some sort, maybe for paying an extra $10, it can be reviewed by a special committee and voted on as legit or not.

It would take a lot of time and effort, and I don't think admins here have the time required to review every WSO that gets posted (even for $10 extra).

On the other hand, asking a senior, well established member to review your WSO and write a short testimonial could dramatically increase your sales.

I do feel that this discussion is kinda pointless, and nothing is going to change. The best thing you can do... if you buy a WSO and find that it's filled with illegal/fraudulent information - report it.

Also, senior members randomly accusing newcomers of scamming people or being somehow dishonest, without any evidence to support those claims, is bs. No less so than posting a WSO full of regurgitated information.
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GeorgR.

14 years ago

Uh....didnt the whole "spiel" going on with our WSO not just prove this already the case?

You dont need an official "committee", the users will usually do the job.

Also, its not as easy as you say. Opinions can vary GREATLY. There is no such thing as an absolute authority who is able to decide whether a method/WSO works/fits all requirements, is legal..things like that. Its not *always* clear.

If it were that easy we wouldnt have this discussion right now.

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Clint

14 years ago

I have in fact accidentally purchased a scam, such as this Just out of curiosity. but quickly they 10 to get booted from the warrior forum and called out for such fraudulent products on the WSO.

So as long as we keep doing our job as member and calling out the fraudulent activity I believe this forum can continue to flourish.

This is only my personal opinion on this particular subject. I hope I helped
Clint

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cyberwize123

Banned 14 years ago

[DELETED]

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John Taylor 14 years ago

Originally Posted by cyberwize123

whats the point of scamming people at the end of the day

Maybe because they're more alert at the beginning
of the day?

John
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Steven Fullman

14 years ago

Erm, I just read three random posts in this thread.

I'm yet to see five big ones in my PP account.

Can someone advise, please?

Steve

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Fullman

Erm, I just read three random posts in this thread.

I'm yet to see five big ones in my PP account.

Can someone advise, please?

Steve

Wow Steve,

I just checked my PP account and there is 29 Big Ones in there.

Yep, 29 Big One Dollar Bills just waiting for me to spend um.

Stay Positive and some will sneak in yours sooner or later too!

Have a Great Day!
Michael
PS, Paul, are you totally sure about that Bald Gald guys not a Troll?
Not me! The other Bald Guy. You know, Mr. Cueball

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Steven Fullman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Wow Steve,

I just checked my PP account and there is 29 Big Ones in there.

Yep, 29 Big One Dollar Bills just waiting for me to spend um.

Stay Positive and some will sneak in yours sooner or later too!

Grrr...

I'll stay negative, thanks all the same.

You're clearly one of 'them'...

Not just 29 dollar bills...but 29 'Big' dollar bills...

20 'HD Quality' dollar bills...29 x 1080p-size dollar bills...

You gloatin' *******. You couldn't help yourself, could you?

Steve

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Fullman

Grrr...

I'll stay negative, thanks all the same.

You're clearly one of 'them'...

Not just 29 dollar bills...but 29 'Big' dollar bills...

20 'HD Quality' dollar bills...29 x 1080p-size dollar bills...

You gloatin' *******. You couldn't help yourself, could you?

Steve

Hey Steve,

:p ~ Yup! ~
Michael

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Steven Fullman 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Hey Steve,

:p ~ Yup! ~
Michael

ROFL!

Nice gif. What did it cost, Mike? $29?

Steve
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- Michael Mayo 14 years ago
  
  Brian, Sorry about all the OT posts! My Bad!
  I'll make it up to you in just a minute, OK?
  
  Just one more time I promise!
  
  Steve, Soon I will have 100,029 Big Ones in my PP account wanta know why?
  
  Copyright infringement, Yep, Ask Brian.
  
  You copied my image and posted it in public with out my permission.
  
  Thanks, You're a Gem!
  Gotta go and tell the wife we can go out and eat now!
  
  Have a Great Day!
  Michael
  PS, Brian, Up for the case?
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Steven Fullman 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
  
  Copyright infringement, Yep, Ask Brian.
  
  You copied my image and posted it in public with out my permission.
  
  Fair use.
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
  
  Thanks, You're a Gem!
  
  I know...Cubic Zirconia.
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
  
  Gotta go and tell the wife we can go out and eat now!
  
  Brother!
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
  
  PS, Brian, Up for the case?
  
  My direct quote increased your brand value. So, case? No. I'm suing you, bud...
  
  Steve
  
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  Ken Strong 14 years ago
  
  Keep it going, guys, I'm taking notes... boy, I'm going to save a LOT of money on lawyers with all this free legal advice!
  
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

How about this new WSO then? "100% Blackhat"

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...at-method.html

I flagged it. Will I be sin-binned again? :confused:

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Michael Mayo 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Metronicity

How about this new WSO then? "100% Blackhat"

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...at-method.html

I flagged it. Will I be sin-binned again? :confused:

I don't think you will for flagging that one!

Have a Great Day!
Michael
PS, Having a Erkel moment, Please wait! OK now you may continue.
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sevenish

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

My opinion, which I've stated before, is that even calling something Black Hat is not an excuse for fraud. Black Hat is legal, just not wanted by someone like Google.

Thank you. Finally. I've tried to make this point several times here, only to be shouted down by those who prefer to define (or sell) it otherwise.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Thank you. Finally. I've tried to make this point several times here, only to be shouted down by those who prefer to define (or sell) it otherwise.

For purposes of this discussion, that doesn't matter. You're right within the context in which you use the term, but it's used here in another way. One which suggests a high probability of involving outright fraud.

I've looked at a few of the so-called "black hat" WSOs lately. Almost all have involved things that seem to me to be good ways to end up getting sued or arrested.

I rather like the idea someone suggested recently of adding that word and phrase to the banned words file here.

Paul

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sevenish

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I've looked at a few of the so-called "black hat" WSOs lately. Almost all have involved things that seem to me to be good ways to end up getting sued or arrested.

Agreed. I've looked into a few of the so-called "black hat" WSOs too. The ones I've seen are junk ... no offense intended to the vendors. Not something in which I would be involved.

For example, while I bend rules to increase conversions and advertiser satisfaction, fraud has no place in my "blackhat" activities.

Thanks

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Mridu

14 years ago

I think most of them are coming from DP forums,review team should be made to handle this.

Thanks
2 replies

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Michael Mayo 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mridu

I think most of them are coming from DP forums,review team should be made to handle this.

Hi Mridu,

Thanks for your insight of where they came from.

A review team is not required as we have thousands of forum members
that are Moderators including you I hope.

Anyway, To each his/her own is my motto...

I'll hold true knowing where I believe the hive is coming from while keeping
all my IM guns loaded.

Have a Great Day!
Michael
PS, No Animals were harmed in the making of this post.
PPS, Take that PITA...lol J/K <-Shamless Plug.
- Thanks
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mmurtha 14 years ago

Brian,

Good post, and very timely!

Originally Posted by Mridu

I think most of them are coming from DP forums,review team should be made to handle this.

Mridu,

There's no need for a "review team". We already have one if people will use it correctly! The problem is, most people won't or don't.
- Thanks
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

UPDATE: Bewdy!! That WSO has been nuked. Maybe some of you guys flagged it too? Is it open season on Blackhatters and Spammers now? "Your mission...should you choose to accept it...

Thanks
2 replies

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Metronicity

UPDATE: Bewdy!! That WSO has been nuked. Maybe some of you guys flagged it too? Is it open season on Blackhatters and Spammers now? "Your mission...should you choose to accept it...

I guess you didn't read any of the posts since the second to the last one you posted?
Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200.

"Click Here To Continue"

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Thanks
1 reply

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

I guess you didn't read any of the posts since the second to the last one you posted?
Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200.

"Click Here To Continue"

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Yes I did. I'm not thick. Just making double sure I'm doing the right thing as I don't want to be in the Bin again.

Thanks
1 reply

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

OK, As you please?

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Yes I did. I'm not thick.

Just making double sure I'm doing the right thing

I don't want to be in the Bin again.

This sounds pretty personal, Sorry didn't mean to intrude.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

John,

Excellent point. I did this with one of the CPA offers this week. The guy fidgeted around about answering how much money you needed to invest to use his technique, and then said "You can start with as little as $100." I smelled something funny, so I bought it. The book said "minimum of $500," so I went back and said so in the thread.

If people don't answer those kinds of questions, the offer should be avoided. On the flip side, there are questions they have legitimate reasons not to answer. Not many, but some.

Metronicity,

I don't want to be in the Bin again.

Just report it, and don't rise to the bait when someone provokes you. Arguing with someone in a WSO thread should be left to folks with more experience and who have more established reputations for watching out for the group.

I'm not questioning your motives, mind you. Not a bit. Just pointing out that you're newer, and people aren't sure why you're arguing an issue.

Paul

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Damn Paul,

Your causing me to give out more Thanks/Karma points than I've Earned Tonight.
I Believe I Need To Call It a Night.

Thanks for all the insights.

Warriors, Have a Great Day/Night!
Michael

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

John,

Excellent point. I did this with one of the CPA offers this week. The guy fidgeted around about answering how much money you needed to invest to use his technique, and then said "You can start with as little as $100." I smelled something funny, so I bought it. The book said "minimum of $500," so I went back and said so in the thread.

If people don't answer those kinds of questions, the offer should be avoided. On the flip side, there are questions they have legitimate reasons not to answer. Not many, but some.

Metronicity,Just report it, and don't rise to the bait when someone provokes you. Arguing with someone in a WSO thread should be left to folks with more experience and who have more established reputations for watching out for the group.

I'm not questioning your motives, mind you. Not a bit. Just pointing out that you're newer, and people aren't sure why you're arguing an issue.

Paul

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Michael,

Your causing me to give out more Thanks/Karma points than I've Earned Tonight.

Tsk. Now you've done it. You've invoked the Zen half of the equation...

"The deed which gives rise to gratitude brings karma to the doer. A grateful nature is to the credit of the person giving thanks."

Okay. Enough of that. Back into redneck mode for the rest of the evening.

Paul

Thanks
1 reply

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,Tsk. Now you've done it. You've invoked the Zen half of the equation...

"The deed which gives rise to gratitude brings karma to the doer. A grateful nature is to the credit of the person giving thanks."

Okay. Enough of that. Back into redneck mode for the rest of the evening.

Paul

Paul, When you put it that way, I felt I Needed to Stay Up a Few more Minutes.
Well, it took me a few minutes to type this and in doing so I learned
another important lesson.

Important Lesson Learned:
Remove the beer from between your legs before you get up to go use
the rest room!

Thanks,
Have a Great Day/Night!
Michael

PS. Soaking it all in as we speak!

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Michael,

Important Lesson Learned:
Remove the beer from between your legs before you get up to go use
the rest room!

[splorf]

That reminds me of one of my oldest (and still circulating) quotes, which I posted to the FIDOnet tagline echo a long, long time ago:

"Paul's Law: You can't fall off the floor."

Also useful when applied in conjunction with beer.

Paul
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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Metronicity,

Is it open season on Blackhatters and Spammers now?

Yep. Always has been here. As you've noticed lately, it doesn't take a lot of people making these things visible for them to get handled.

We do need to be very careful of the distinction between "I don't like this" and "This is clearly unethical," though.

Paul
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Zeus66

14 years ago

Some of you people are damn funny, and more of you need to steadfastly refuse all offers to quit your day jobs.

I think a possible solution (well, maybe not a solution, but still helpful) would be for more senior Warriors to really dig in and ask the tough questions of new WSO posters. Do it in full view right on the thread. Force the OP to either answer or ignore (which is an answer too). Anyone offering a legit WSO will be able to forthrightly respond in a timely manner with an actual answer, not a clever obfuscation.

I tried this just this week on a WSO thread that seemed fishy to me, and the OP's responses told me all I needed to know. In other words, I kept my wallet in my pocket.

Can't hurt to have some trusted Warriors prowling and asking tough questions to help those.... how to put this... more prone to fits of naivety.

John

Thanks
2 replies

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Marian 14 years ago

You can't really stop it... only eliminate it. There always be someone trying to go the fishy way...unfortunately. The admins are the first ones to make it harder on the poster. The next turn is ourselves, our opinions and reviews.

Marian
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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

Yeah that happens and we get accused of bashing the poor old newbies

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I think a possible solution (well, maybe not a solution, but still helpful) would be for more senior Warriors to really dig in and ask the tough questions of new WSO posters. Do it in full view right on the thread. Force the OP to either answer or ignore (which is an answer too). Anyone offering a legit WSO will be able to forthrightly respond in a timely manner with an actual answer, not a clever obfuscation.

John

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi Kanus,

This is helpful. Someone new asked us yesterday in another thread 'can you share any posting tips.' Part of your answer leads to the perfect answer -

You cant quote one or two sentences and debate them, you have to read and comment on the entire point of the post. I love to debate, good stuff, but those two sentences don't represent the entire point I'm trying to prove.

I can quote them.

The only time it is incorrect to quote just some of someone's post is if you are obviously selectively quoting in order to change the meaning of what was said - that is misleading and can be easily proven by re-quoting the whole thing in it's full context - thus demonstrating the difference.

But some statements stand on their own.

EG -

Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase

Which is one of the things I quoted. If you can, please re-quote that it in it's proper context - I don't think you can, it stands alone, I didn't selectively quote you in order to deceive.

The 'tip for better posting' is - don't make statements that when fairly isolated are utterly incorrect. If you can't write your post without doing so, re-think your post before posting it as the holes in the logic of it might be exposed by the next poster.

Yes I chose extreme examples - often a good way to make a point. The main point being that 'the rest of the forum' cares 'what the product is.' We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

I love to debate, good stuff

Me too, but only with someone who is capable of presenting a valid argument. I'm only answering you here because I feel that what I am saying needs to be said.

We are, in part, responsible for these products to continue to be sold. Because we don't take the time to get a refund or comment on the product when we buy it. Most of us take the loss and the information rots on our hard drive.

You are making the incorrect assumption that all of us buy those products. You're also assuming that all of us currently buy WSOs. You are assuming that if we do buy products we don't appreciate, we don't leave negative comments. Wrong on all three.

You just don't seem to get it, and after disputing the quote (above) and suggesting it is not representative of your point, you go and say it again -

Lastly, "how to sell crack" or brothel are bad examples, and pretty extreme, I wouldn't expect to see something like that. If someone had a guide on "How to make money by scamming people into signing up for dating services?"

I don't see any difference between your example and my three. We don't want, or need, products about 'how to scam'. How much clearer does it need to be? Go read my last post (and this one) again to see the reasons why. We build (and teach and discuss how to build) legitimate businesses here. Not fly-by-night scams. There are tons of places to discuss scams.

I say why not. Will it be controversial? Yes. Will people flame the product? Likely. Will some people enjoy reading the product? If the title was that clear, and they bought the product, I cant see why they wouldn't. I read these products on occasion as I am intrigued by the ingenuity put behind them and some times get legitimate ideas from it. In the end, wouldn't you just skip that product if you weren't interested? Do warriors deserve the right to decide if they like a product?

Again, you are totally missing the point. Here it is again -

We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

No-one who has been here a while needs to see those products here. We're doing absolutely fine without them. There is enough abundance out there that warriors don't need to run scams.

What is so difficult for you to understand about that? Admin has said he doesn't want them here.

If you enjoy looking for the ingenuity behind scams, go and buy a book from a bookshop or watch one of those TV programs about it. This is a business forum for business people - the only type of ingenuity I want to spend my time on is the type that makes lots of money legitimately - that way, once you have made it and paid your dues, you can hang onto it, do what you want with it and you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder waiting for the FTC or someone like that to take it off you.

With the solution I am presenting, the title wouldn't be "Make tons of money online" with some vague description, and if it was, someone who bought it would say, "This guide is about scamming people" or something.

So what would the title be if it wasn't misleading?

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Roger Davis

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Roger,

I think it's also entirely reasonable to quote sections when the full context is available to anyone who's reading the quote, and which should have been read by anyone seeing them before they got to the excerpted parts.

Nothing else to add. You said it nicely.

Paul

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kanus

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Roger,

I think it's also entirely reasonable to quote sections when the full context is available to anyone who's reading the quote, and which should have been read by anyone seeing them before they got to the excerpted parts.

Nothing else to add. You said it nicely.

Paul

Yes, someone reading the quotes can go back and read the entire post... But it takes many sentences to make a single point sometimes. None of the sentences he pulled represented my whole point. What is the point of pulling out a single sentence, unless your just trying to nitpick. People do this all the time, and usually to make it seem like they are saying something totally different. I didn't realize I had to be so conscious of every word I wrote here. Next time I just wont add my comment.

Thanks

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kanus

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Kanus,

This is helpful. Someone new asked us yesterday in another thread 'can you share any posting tips.' Part of your answer leads to the perfect answer -

I can quote them.

The only time it is incorrect to quote just some of someone's post is if you are obviously selectively quoting in order to change the meaning of what was said - that is misleading and can be easily proven by re-quoting the whole thing in it's full context - thus demonstrating the difference.

But some statements stand on their own.

EG -

Which is one of the things I quoted. If you can, please re-quote that it in it's proper context - I don't think you can, it stands alone, I didn't selectively quote you in order to deceive.

The 'tip for better posting' is - don't make statements that when fairly isolated are utterly incorrect. If you can't write your post without doing so, re-think your post before posting it as the holes in the logic of it might be exposed by the next poster.

Yes I chose extreme examples - often a good way to make a point. The main point being that 'the rest of the forum' cares 'what the product is.' We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

Me too, but only with someone who is capable of presenting a valid argument. I'm only answering you here because I feel that what I am saying needs to be said.

You are making the incorrect assumption that all of us buy those products. You're also assuming that all of us currently buy WSOs. You are assuming that if we do buy products we don't appreciate, we don't leave negative comments. Wrong on all three.

You just don't seem to get it, and after disputing the quote (above) and suggesting it is not representative of your point, you go and say it again -

I don't see any difference between your example and my three. We don't want, or need, products about 'how to scam'. How much clearer does it need to be? Go read my last post (and this one) again to see the reasons why. We build (and teach and discuss how to build) legitimate businesses here. Not fly-by-night scams. There are tons of places to discuss scams.

Again, you are totally missing the point. Here it is again -

No-one who has been here a while needs to see those products here. We're doing absolutely fine without them. There is enough abundance out there that warriors don't need to run scams.

What is so difficult for you to understand about that? Admin has said he doesn't want them here.

If you enjoy looking for the ingenuity behind scams, go and buy a book from a bookshop or watch one of those TV programs about it. This is a business forum for business people - the only type of ingenuity I want to spend my time on is the type that makes lots of money legitimately - that way, once you have made it and paid your dues, you can hang onto it, do what you want with it and you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder waiting for the FTC or someone like that to take it off you.

So what would the title be if it wasn't misleading?

It's interesting, there is all this commenting and quoting, and there is absolutely no value.

Allow me to break it down into simple words for you, so I wont be accused of being someone who cant make a valid point.

The problem is some (I don't want you to misinterpret "people" as meaning everyone, so I prefaced it with "some") people are selling products that have very vague descriptions about what the product actually is.

As in the original poster of this thread mentioned, he didnt know the WSO would require him to perform fraudulent activity.

So my solution is... If someone buys a WSO like this, be diligent about commenting on the product, warning others, and asking for refunds. Also, to be clear in stating what a WSO is offering. Example: If the WSO included some fraudulent activity (whether he can or cannot and if its permitted here, doesnt make any difference to my point, if you want to debate it again, go ahead, I will not respond as it has no relevance to what I'm suggesting), the seller would include a statement of "This WSO contains activities that some may consider fraudulent", the title would be something like "How to fraud google and make 500 dollars a day doing it".

Thanks

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Justin1

14 years ago

Isnt it true that the CPA network will stop you promoting the offer if there is no conversions in your traffic? For example, you hire a thousand people to fill out **** forms and NONE of them convert to full sales, then I thought CPA networks were pretty picky and would notice this and either ban you from the offer or stop the offer altogether, or is there no follow up to see how the offers are converting for specific affiliates?

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mmurtha

14 years ago

Metronicity,

Originally Posted by Metronicity
UPDATE: Bewdy!! That WSO has been nuked. Maybe some of you guys flagged it too? Is it open season on Blackhatters and Spammers now? "Your mission...should you choose to accept it...

Nope, not yet, but it has been a mission for all members to spot the bad WSO and fraud ever since I can remember. We've just been given more responsability when you became forum mods with this new forum.

Originally Posted by Justin1

Isnt it true that the CPA network will stop you promoting the offer if there is no conversions in your traffic? For example, you hire a thousand people to fill out **** forms and NONE of them convert to full sales, then I thought CPA networks were pretty picky and would notice this and either ban you from the offer or stop the offer altogether, or is there no follow up to see how the offers are converting for specific affiliates?

Justin,

Usually they will, and they will also ban you if they catch you going against their toss.

Thanks

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wallush

14 years ago

I purchased several offers that suggest doing black hat stuff like this. The question is how long before you get banned by you CPA network?

Thanks

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kanus

14 years ago

You guys from the USA? Not flaming, just wondering if we have forgotten what being from the USA is all about. I think anyone has the right to sell whatever they want, now if they don't tell you up front what it is, appropriate action should be taken, refunds given, yada yada. However, it's not just black hat or illegal stuff I see this problem. Half the time, I cant tell what exactly they want me to buy, but it will make me a lot of money. Well what if I buy it and I just don't like the system or information? What if its just something I have no interest in doing (like illegal stuff)? Since they didnt tell me exactly what it was I would be doing, what recourse do I have, ask for a refund? I'm not going off topic, my point is, we face the same problem in all these books; systems; or whatever. We are targeting illegal and black hat because its not socially acceptable or easier to speak out against and gain traction.

Thanks
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mmurtha

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kanus

You guys from the USA? Not flaming, just wondering if we have forgotten what being from the USA is all about. I think anyone has the right to sell whatever they want,

Whether someone is in the USA or not, it makes no difference in this forum, or in any other that is privately owned. This one is privately owned, and it is NOT a democracy lol. Meaning no one has rights to do anything in here but what Allen Says believes and says (no pun intended) they should.

Lol what you think is not correct here. This is his house. You've heard that a man is the king of thier castle haven't you?

Thanks
1 reply

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kanus

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mmurtha

Whether someone is in the USA or not, it makes no difference in this forum, or in any other that is privately owned. This one is privately owned, and it is NOT a democracy lol. Meaning no one has rights to do anything in here but what Allen Says believes and says (no pun intended) they should.

Lol what you think is not correct here. This is his house. You've heard that a man are the king of thier castle haven't you?

No, I'm just surprised to hear people talking about banning certain types of products. Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase, if its not what it states it is, then action needs to be taken. TheFlash pointed out the problem as well, I think instead of banning products, we should be more mindful about reviewing them and such.

And yes, the forum owner has the right to do whatever they like, I wont contest that. I'm trying to get people to look at it from a different angle.

Thanks
1 reply

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mmurtha

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kanus

No, I'm just surprised to hear people talking about banning certain types of products. Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase, if its not what it states it is, then action needs to be taken. TheFlash pointed out the problem as well, I think instead of banning products, we should be more mindful about reviewing them and such.

And yes, the forum owner has the right to do whatever they like, I wont contest that. I'm trying to get people to look at it from a different angle.

Hey Kanus,

I don't think we are discussing banning specific products, just fraud. At least that is what the OP posted about. If certain types of products are used along with fraudulant tactics, such as down right scams, or stealing other people's hard work, then that product should not be up for sale.

There is a big difference.

And yes, I know what you are saying, and I can appreciate it.

Thanks
1 reply

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi Kanus,

We are targeting illegal and black hat because its not socially acceptable or easier to speak out against and gain traction

Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase

So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?

Of course not.

If something is not 'socially acceptable' why would the forum owner want his forum to gain a reputation for allowing the sale of 'socially unacceptable' products?

Why would the concern of people who have been here for a while and are proud of what this forum stands for be wanting to 'gain traction' on something just because it was easier to stamp out than something else?

Do we appear as a group to be the kind of people who ignore logic but get a kick out of 'gaining traction' to stamp out easy targets?

It's simple - since more and more people started calling their products black hat, more and more people are pushing the boundaries surrounding black hat - to the point where it can include anything - as long as it breaks someones rules somewhere, and to the point where the whole idea within the product is fraudulent.

Put another way, the USP of the product has one aspect - it's fraudulent. And the only tactics/great ideas within the product revolve around how the fraud is carried out/covered up.

Those kind of products are the type of thing created by someone bereft of good ideas and innovation, desperate, probably inexperienced in business and not thinking clearly.

Those people need to come here and just read for a while. Nose around a bit and try and work out how all of the successful people here manage to build long term, stable, blossoming, sustainable, semi-auto-pilot, saleable businesses that provide value and that they can be proud of.

That would be a much better way to spend their time than hawking black hat BS products. There is an abundance of opportunity out there for anyone who knows what this forum is, has an internet connection and can read, learn, type and take action. To fail to take advantage of the abundance of genuine opportunities in front of them is to choose the path of failure.

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kanus

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Kanus,

So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?

Of course not.

If something is not 'socially acceptable' why would the forum owner want his forum to gain a reputation for allowing the sale of 'socially unacceptable' products?

Why would the concern of people who have been here for a while and are proud of what this forum stands for be wanting to 'gain traction' on something just because it was easier to stamp out than something else?

Do we appear as a group to be the kind of people who ignore logic but get a kick out of 'gaining traction' to stamp out easy targets?

It's simple - since more and more people started calling their products black hat, more and more people are pushing the boundaries surrounding black hat - to the point where it can include anything - as long as it breaks someones rules somewhere, and to the point where the whole idea within the product is fraudulent.

Put another way, the USP of the product has one aspect - it's fraudulent. And the only tactics/great ideas within the product revolve around how the fraud is carried out/covered up.

Those kind of products are the type of thing created by someone bereft of good ideas and innovation, desperate, probably inexperienced in business and not thinking clearly.

Those people need to come here and just read for a while. Nose around a bit and try and work out how all of the successful people here manage to build long term, stable, blossoming, sustainable, semi-auto-pilot, saleable businesses that provide value and that they can be proud of.

That would be a much better way to spend their time than hawking black hat BS products. There is an abundance of opportunity out there for anyone who knows what this forum is, has an internet connection and can read, learn, type and take action. To fail to take advantage of the abundance of genuine opportunities in front of them is to choose the path of failure.

You cant quote one or two sentences and debate them, you have to read and comment on the entire point of the post. I love to debate, good stuff, but those two sentences don't represent the entire point I'm trying to prove. I have to go back to the original post here, the problem he presents as only in "BlueFart" or "fraudulent" stuff. My point is this problem is not limited to "BlueFart" and "fraudulent" products, I have had this same problem with non "BlueFart" and "fraudulent" products. We are, in part, responsible for these products to continue to be sold. Because we don't take the time to get a refund or comment on the product when we buy it. Most of us take the loss and the information rots on our hard drive.

I wont speak for what the forum owner wants or doesn't want on the forum, but I'm sure if enough of you don't want fraud related products on the forum, the forum owner will consider enforcing rules against it. However, what constitutes as fraud? Is BlueFart to be banned as well? Hell I thought blackhat was a selling point for some people. Where do we draw the line?

Don't answer those questions, I don't care what the answers are, I'm asking the questions to prove how difficult of a solution moderating these products would be. I think the easiest solution to the problem is we look at how we can fix it. We can comment on products we do and don't like to other members, we can request refunds to these products. We can enforce clarity in products, ask questions, as the original poster presents his problem, he wasn't aware it was fraudulent activity in the WSO. Again, this is problem not exclusive to BlueFart and Fraud products.

Lastly, "how to sell crack" or brothel are bad examples, and pretty extreme, I wouldn't expect to see something like that. If someone had a guide on "How to make money by scamming people into signing up for dating services?", I say why not. Will it be controversial? Yes. Will people flame the product? Likely. Will some people enjoy reading the product? If the title was that clear, and they bought the product, I cant see why they wouldn't. I read these products on occasion as I am intrigued by the ingenuity put behind them and some times get legitimate ideas from it. In the end, wouldn't you just skip that product if you weren't interested? Do warriors deserve the right to decide if they like a product?

With the solution I am presenting, the title wouldn't be "Make tons of money online" with some vague description, and if it was, someone who bought it would say, "This guide is about scamming people" or something.

Sorry for the long response, but I don't feel I was getting my point across or maybe it wasn't easily interpreted as I don't have the best written skills lol.

Thanks

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Matt.Lake

14 years ago

I would guess that the people posting these WSO's aren't even using the method themselves. They know it's wrong and they're just selling it as a THEORY.

Meh.

Thanks
1 reply

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi CmdrStidd,

That is the same thing I complained about in another thread some months back and I was told then that "it is what sells these programs. After all, who wants to buy a program that says Work hard and in 6 months you could be making when you can see an ad that says Become a multi billionaire while you sleep.

We have to start getting honest in our own advertising. If anyone is out there complaining about these scams but you are advertising the while you sleep methodology, you are committing a scam too so who are you to throw stones?

Did you check the person's profile who said that to see if they themselves sell WSOs that are sold on the 'while you sleep' methodology?

If not, why not?

There's no point speculating when it's easy to be sure.

Thanks

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Roger Davis

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