I never like to make income claims just cause it's a touchy subject on my mind. I get customers / clients because they heard about me through word of mouth. I let the action do the talking. I'm sincere at what I do, and I lend them a hand as much as I can. I don't need to make a claim so they can be intrigued by what I do. If they want help then they'll get it. But that's just me.

I never use them in my own offers. And not doing so is a two-edged sword.

Some people discount my success stories, because I won't share my income numbers with anyone beyond my wife and the IRS.

Some people misinterpret the use of "proof" as evidence that they can make as much as I have made using the technique. Given that there are so many factors that go into one's personal success story, it is rarely the case that the student will make as much as the teacher of a particular methodology.

I voted "no" on your poll, because I believe the offering of proof should be judged by each individual seller, if they are so inclined to do so.

I could care less about them. Just by reading the text/info on a sales letter page, i can tell if it's the product for me. For newbies.... they will get duped one way or another.

No. A fact is a fact. If you make $30K per month using a software, strategy or whatever, and state "I make $30K per month doing this", that is a fact.

Now, if you say "You will make $30K per month doing this", that is a different story. As it is not fact, merely speculation.

I hate putting them on my WSOs… In fact, I never have. But then you get people asking for 'proof'

What I have made has zero connection to what anyone else can/will make.

I don't have a wife but I'd rather not even share it with those other guys. (;

Sad but true.

If not income claims then something else.

I'd sure hate to handle their CS after buyers realize they won't be getting rich any time soon.

I voted no. I use their income claims and how much they "push" it as one of the factors I use to judge whether or not it will actually end up being a quality product. As far as I'm concerned you should be able to sell a product based on it's merits and if they go overboard with income claims my gut tells me it's all hype and little substance.

I voted "No" as well. I don't think income claim is damaging but it can be misleading to customers. But I've also assumed that income potential varies. It doesn't really matter to me as I judge a product based on its content and quality.

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They shouldn't be promoting the income claim but instead focus on the features and benefits of the product itself, if the product is good enough, no income claim is necessary, as people see more and more income claims, they will become more and more skeptic

Been around the forum for quite a while and I have no clue what an income claim is. Can anyone elaborate for me?

I always laugh at threads like this. Here is an idea .. if you got a problem with those ads .. dont buy from them.. if everyone did this then they would fast vanish. Oh and if your going to say you dont buy from them .. then what do you care what the ad says .. since your not a customer of them, so they dont effect you.

I think income claims are an important deciding factor, they should absolutely stay. They help determine the credibility of the seller and whether the product is worth reading about.

A little common sense goes a long way... if you saw an ad on Craigslist that was for a 68 Volkswagen claiming you'll be able to do 0-60 in 1 second and a top speed of 300 MPH while getting 800 MPG, common sense would tell you it was bogus.

But that doesn't mean another guy shouldn't be able to sell a Corvette and claim you'll be able to do 0-60 in 4 seconds and get 29 MPG...

Very solid, I think.

Well, you already know that I support your position unreservedly, and have been saying so for years, just probably with a little less tact than you've put it.

I'm also very interested and pleased that Paul feels cautiously optimistic about this subject.

Meanwhile, I continue to urge Warriors not to buy WSO's (or other, similar products anywhere else) whose sales-pages make income claims.

I like the sea monkeys ad where it say you can TRAIN em. Maybe we can train use car sales man... oops, I mean internet markets - sorry,

Hey buddy, I got a real beauty for you. Its got your name on it. Better hurry, three guys just called me up. They are coming right over. THIS IS A REAL STEAL OF A DEAL!

Regarding income claims, the problem is that if the forum impose conditions on income claims, they are in a way agreeing that what does get put through has been accepted and approved by them.

This is fine as long as you are only verifying it's an IM offer, if you're verifying income claims then you're in legally dangerous water.

As for removing them completely that would again mean anything that gets through would be the responsibility of the forum, and it would see many leaving the WSO section to run their offers elsewhere.

Much like removing the affiliate programs, it would get rid of a lot of rubbish...and profit for the forum. Not a trade off that I can see being acceptable for a company that must show it is making money.

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I think that anyone who buys a WSO, or any other product, based on
an income claim isn't a real business person and has precious little chance
of succeeding with or without the claim.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with making income claims as long as those claims are TRUE and you follow the FTC rules.

Within the rules, the FTC allows such claims. Why wouldn't the Warrior Forum?

The problem here has always been that some WSO sellers act as if the Warrior Forum is a safe haven from the FTC. It is not.

If you sell WSOs, you can and should read about the new rules at the FTC website.

John

It's not only disheartening but fraudulent and most of such offers doesn't hold any water.

The most worrisome thing is, when there is a need for donations
our so called millionaires will be nowhere to be found.

I personally don't think they are damaging.

I feel like if you actually have made what you say, then I don't see an issue with it. If your company made 10 Million Dollars or If you made 3k in 10 days using software and you honestly made it actually made it and you can teach it, I see no issues...

Heck, I was looking in the Classified section of my Local newspaper and saw an job advertisement for a Sales Professional avg income $60-$100k so we are no the only ones who do it.

Also In my opinion I think income claims will always be used to sell products because people want to know that what they are buying works and if your promoting a "Money Making" system or software then people will want to see "Proof" that it works, just like any other product.

I think the entire thing is a slippery slope and it could easily end up being a "be careful what you wish for..." type of situation.

If people think the offers were vague and blind before which basically bait newbies into buying...

Just wait until the first question on EVERY WSO thread is:

"How much money can I make?"

Then the seller responds:

"Well, I'm not not allowed to say. It could be zero or it could be millions. I'm not permitted to put a specific number on it."

Then the first review comes in:

"I just went through the PDF, WOW, I know the seller isn't allowed to say how much they made, but I'm sure they must have cleaned up with this method."

When that plays out, how many people would fall for that?

There's a lot of people who purchase IM products like lottery tickets.

Like others have said, there's a big difference between "I made this..." and "You will make this..." but really, all someone would have to do is change "you" in their copy to "find out how I bank..." anyway.

I personally believe at the end of the day each individual is responsible for what they purchase. This is an open forum where a buyer can put up a review in the thread anytime they want voicing their opinion.

Some income claims are true and verifiable.

There's a big difference between "I made X" and "You will make X".

Only a fool would make the latter claim, and only a bigger fool would buy the product.

On the one hand fraudulent sellers should not be allowed and need to be dealt with. On the other hand, I have a philosophical issue worrying about protecting someone else from their foolishness.

If it isn't a dollar amount then a seller can simply say, Make Enough Each Month to Cover Your House Payment.

And why stop at income claims? How about promises to get on the first page of Google for any keyword? Every time I see that I want to say my keyword is: google - have fun guys.

A brief look at the WSO section just now showed only a few income claims. This caught my attention:

Snatch Up To $874.38 In Daily Commissions With This EVERGREEN Outsourcing System

I don't even have to look at the sale page to know this is virtually guaranteed to be fraudulent. Let me ask you this - do you expect to see a barrier preventing someone from making $874.39 per day? If not, it is bogus.

I have yet to see an "up to" claim be legit.

This number shenanigans is seen in a variety of contexts, such as Get up to 117 new visitors per day.

Why allow that if "income" claims are banned?

Here is another one, with no precise income claim but still making an income claim:

This Method Will Put Money In Your Pocket In The Next 24 Hours - GUARANTEED

I don't see a problem letting that title run (I have not looked at the ad or product) unless it turns out to be false.

Increase your conversions by up to 74% - Something like that was pimped by the new owners of the forum right after buying the place. It was, IMHO, quite embarrassing. If the owners are going to make that claim as far as I'm concerned this is a non-starter of a discussion. Fire away.

.

Why not regulate everything?

I would never buy a product that made an income claim.

Are WSO income claims damaging?

They are extremely damaging to the person making them who see only dollar bills.

Once word spreads your credibility will tank.

Income claims are the 'sizzle'
but unfortunately many of the 'sausages' are often just rusk and gristle.

From reading I can see most warrior hate freedom and are for regulation but even that I'm the 1% i'm for it if someone want to say something that upsets every other warrior I think he should be free to do it, I know this will not happen I get it but I"m for freedom. Just my 2 cents event that I know freedom will not what is popular.

I think society is loaded to the teeth with regulations. Enough already.

And, if someone makes an income claim, or any other claim for that matter, that isn't true and it is found out not to be true, then that individual should be held accountable for fraud and any other crime that may be involved in misleading the public. Simple.

i guess my thoughts are that people want the ability to succeed beyond their wildess dreams. unfortunately they fail to realize that the freedom to succeed big also come with the freedom to fail big too.

The high failure rate of IMers is not unique to this industry. what percentage of wannabe NBA players make the nba?.... Almost all high reward 1%ish type of lifestyles (and jobs that power them) have an extreme failure rate just like the dream IM lifestyle does. There just are not that many people with the intellectual horsepower and all the skill required to make this work.

as far as income claims go. according to my lawyer many of the sales letters on the wso forum are in violation of the ftc rules regarding income claims and testimonials. But i got no skin in that game, so its not my ass on the line. I have made my thoughts on the subject heard many times.

As far as full 100% regulation. Thats just not possible. Take me for instance. I got nearly 2 decades of online marketing experience. Truthfully if i read every wso or IM product created this year, i wouldnt learn all that much. a few gems of course, but mostly it would all look like rehashed stuff to me. But what about to guy who just started 2 weeks ago. That same rehashed stuff is all new to him. So full on regulation of "bad" or "rehashed" products is just not possible.

That being said, there is a reason the ftc guidlines exist regarding income claims and testimonials. its because when those things are allowed to go unchecked, society has learned that sellers will take advantage of consumers.

The real problem here is that a hefty percentage of the wso consumers are not really tying to be in business and provide value to others. They are trying to "take" ...they just want money. That disposition rarely brings success when it comes to making money flow from others people piles into yours.

That way of thinking makes people dream. It makes them susceptible to all sorts of emotional triggers that many of us "real business" folks just dont fall victim too.

My 2 cents is that the problem is the buyers, not the sellers. We have a very desperate and "dumbed down" consumer in the IM market.

One very predictable thing in life is that any behavior you reward, you will get more of. so if a sales letter makes income claims and people buy more of that product, then guess what...expect more income claims to show up.

It aint rocket science, but it very may well may be against the law...lol