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PayPal UK - Could this be the end of the IM sales letter that we know and love (or loathe?)

by wtatlas
10 replies
Once upon a time, sellers of intangible items who use PayPal as a payment processor could feel secure in the knowledge that they were reasonably safe from the dreaded serial refunder. This was because PayPal wouldn't entertain disputes relating to non-physical products. That will all change on 17 June, at least as far as UK buyers are concerned.

From that day Paypal UK will allow buyers to file a dispute in respect of intangible goods where it is claimed that the item was not received or if the item or service was not as described.

To refute a claim PayPal will expect a seller to provide, and I quote, "compelling evidence to prove that you provided the intangible item and that it was as you described it to be..."

The first part, evidence that the item was downloaded shouldn't be a problem but I can imagine the shenanigans that are likely to arise with regard to the second bit, "and that it was as you described it to be..."

If life was simple it should be sufficient to say, for example in the case of an ebook, that the item is a PDF file and contains X number of words. That would be a truthful and indisputable description.

But what if a buyer maintains that he has not gained the benefits that a sales letter has said he will receive? Will PayPal regard that as the product not being as described?

For instance, you don't to look very hard to see bullet points in sales letters that say something akin to:

  • discover this little known secret (which isn't a secret at all)
  • how to do this, that or t'other (when the information tells you to do this that or t'other without explaining HOW)
  • best XXXX service (who defines "best"?)

I'm sure I don't have to go on. You can fill in the rest yourselves.

Only time will tell how PayPal will approach this aspect and what criteria they will use to decide whether or not a digital item is as described. It would be as well for anyone who sells intangible goods or services to bear this new policy in mind and to be prepared to respond to any disputed transactions.

If this post hasn't put you in a state of depression, don't worry, I'm not finished yet. As part of PayPal's expanded buyer protection they are extending the time limit for filing a dispute from 45 days to 180 days. This new rule also comes into play from Friday, 13th June.

Just imagine - Mr. I-Always-Ask-For-A-Refund will soon have six months to decide whether or not he has received a download or whether it is as described. Buyer protection is one thing but is this not being just a tad over-zealous?

You can read more about the new PayPal policies here...

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mp...n-improvements
#digital products #end #letter #loathe #love #paypal #refunds #sales
  • Profile picture of the author Global Content Services
    Banned
    WHAT??? Is this true? I am not from the UK, but I use paypal often to accept payments from people who order articles from me. What type of "compelling evidence" should I provide then? My email logins? I am starting to worry too because I know if paypal was able to implement this new rule in the UK, they won't have any reason not to implement it to every paypal user around the world.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      I don't really see where the problem is with this PayPal policy change.

      The overwhelming majority of purchasers buy a product with the intention of keeping it. The onus has always been on the seller to provide value. And most reputable sellers of downloadable information products offer a no-quibble refund policy, anyway.

      There will always be serial refunders, but PayPal aren't stupid. If a buyer is opening multiple disputes, the account will be flagged and, at least, investigated. Also, as a PayPal seller, you have the facility to report buyers who abuse the system.

      But if this new policy results in a few less-hypey (or even misleading) sales letters, how is that a bad thing?


      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        PayPal aren't stupid.
        You're giving PayPal/Ebay too much undeserved credit.

        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        If a buyer is opening multiple disputes, the account will be flagged and, at least, investigated.
        Historically, PayPal has not done this. Serial refunders have been able to refund at whim for years, stealing money from many sellers, without any problem.


        If I could add to the original post, a concern is PayPal becoming more like ClickBank, which for anyone selling in the IM niche means massive refund rates and intentional theft of intellectual property.

        If this was such a wonderful policy it would have been implemented worldwide by PayPal years ago. The fact it hasn't should tell you something.


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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Historically, PayPal has not done this. Serial refunders have been able to refund at whim for years, stealing money from many sellers, without any problem.
          You mean for physical products? I'd be interested to see any figures you have that show what proportion of sales are affected by these serial refunders.

          If this was such a wonderful policy it would have been implemented worldwide by PayPal years ago. The fact it hasn't should tell you something.
          You're giving PayPal/Ebay too much undeserved credit.
          Well, you can't have it both ways. If you think I'm giving PayPal too much credit, why would you expect them to have already implemented a "wonderful" policy?

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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        I don't really see where the problem is with this PayPal policy change.
        Neither do I (speaking as a UK-resident).

        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        But if this new policy results in a few less-hypey (or even misleading) sales letters, how is that a bad thing?
        Not at all, that I can see.

        I think there's an analogy here, to be drawn, in a way, between PayPal and ClickBank.

        Just as some ClickBank affiliates have very low refund-rates across the board, for everything they promote, other affiliates consistently have far higher refund-rates for the same products. Granted, products in some niches do have slightly higher refund-rates overall, because of the nature of their niches and customers (I'm thinking of "make money online" products, really), but the striking differentials - as ClickBank staff will happily confirm if you manage to chat to them about it - are those between the "low-refund-rate affiliates" and the "high-refund-rate affiliates", whatever they happen to promote. It was ever thus. In my opinion it's really all about how you sell it, what representations you make about it, who you are, how you do business, who your customers are, and so on.

        I think it's actually quite a big and important issue.

        This is why: as internet marketers, collectively, it's good for us if our customers, collectively, are satisfied and have plenty of consumer protection and legal rights, too: that reduces the chances of all of us being considered "scammers", and it's good for our long-term, collective reputation. That's pretty important, isn't it?

        History has shown, consistently and unremittingly, that industries that don't regulate themselves effectively and efficiently just get "awarded" more and more external regulators with more and more powers, and that's perhaps not quite so good for us, in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author spearce000
    If you stand behind your product/service and offer a guarantee, this won't be a problem. If you don't why not?

    I suspect it's because of complaints against people who sell rubbish and/or do a bad job that PayPal are bringing this in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Crictionary
      May be a little off topic but i am already fed up with the Paypal-UK . I ve been using it for more than 4 years as a Verified user for normal purchases from Ebay etc. But since i ve entered into Internet Marketing all the purchases have been made through Paypal and just when i was about to buy a once in a life time offer which was due to expire on 8th June 2014, My payments are just not going through. I had a conversation with the product support and showed them screenshots of my TRY to purchase the product and getting failed, So they provided me with the private link to buy which is not available for public( As the date went past by a mile) . But it has been more than 8 days now i ve not been able to get through. Customer service says there is nothing wrong with your account. Security checks going through perfectly and just to double check that it might be a problem with the merchant i tried to send a small amount of money to one of my friends/family circle individual. Even THAT doesn't go through. Finally i ve come to the decision of Withdrawing the money into my bank account and say GOOD-BYE to the pain in the Neck PAYPAL.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveFinch
    I don't see a problem really with the new paypal regs providing flexibility and common sense are part of the decision making by paypal.

    For example, if the buyer is claiming a product isn't as advertised, but the seller is maintaining it is, then hopefully paypal will check the sellers refund rates and those of the buyer as well. Something should stand out, and I'd of thought that should play a part in the final decision?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Actually I can see a way to make lemonade from this

    It now makes even more important you use software designed to make them login to download any products they have purchased... Even free downloads should be protected behind a login system so you can log their IP the dates and times they logged in, and the number of times they logged in

    Hmmm I feel a tutorial coming on hahahaha
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      If you're not already doing a "legal audit" of your sales letters, if you're in the UK you'll start doing this as soon as the first time-consuming complaint under this policy is made.

      Essentially, for each factual claim in a sales letter you note where it is addressed in the product or other proof is available. My clients do this.

      Example:

      I made twice as many sales after implementing the Acme formula - Page 32 and screenshots in the Acme/evidence subdirectory.

      This should already be done for legal protection. The goal is to as quickly and as cheaply as possible prove you've done nothing wrong.

      This new policy, though, could create a big time suck. Takes 10 seconds for someone to assert everything in a sales letter is not as described. It could take you an hour to respond. If you're in the UK and value your time, for cheap products might as well just offer a refund.

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