Paypal Policy Change 180 days!

46 replies
Hi Warriors,

I wanted to see your thoughts on the new Paypal policy and how it may affect Internet Marketers. This is primarily towards UK buyers.

Paypal have updated the policy to read:

"With effect from a date to be confirmed by PayPal in due course (falling on or after the Effective Date), section 13 will be amended to make several improvements to the PayPal Buyer Protection policy. The amendments will:
improve the conditions of reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection for PayPal users registered as UK residents by:
  1. increasing the time allowed for buyers to raise a Dispute from 45 days to 180 days from the date on which payment was made; and
  2. extending the range of eligible purchases to cover :
    1. intangible items (including, without limitation, rights of access to digital content and other licences) ;
    2. services; and
    3. travel tickets (including, without limitation, airline flight tickets);"
The two major changes being, you can now dispute a transaction up to 6 months later. Intagible goods, that we markerters provide, can also be disputed now.


What are your thoughts?
#180 #change #days #paypal #policy
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I guess it opens the door to shady refunders right?

    But my philosophy is thus; if someone isn't happy with my product/service, I don't want their money.

    (Nor do I want their business).

    Just my $.02.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jawad96
      Thanks for your thoughts. I guess it now opens the opportunity for more fraud to take place - to us, the sellers. The buyer has plenty of time to go throught the product, or utilise the service; and 6 months later open a dispute. Refund rates could be at an all time high now that Paypal support intangible goods.
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    • Profile picture of the author CharlieMain
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I guess it opens the door to shady refunders right?

      But my philosophy is thus; if someone isn't happy with my product/service, I don't want their money.

      (Nor do I want their business).

      Just my $.02.
      I agree - I want those who are looking to improve their business and to have a long term relationship with them. Not spend days squabbling.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan White
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I guess it opens the door to shady refunders right?

      But my philosophy is thus; if someone isn't happy with my product/service, I don't want their money.

      (Nor do I want their business).

      Just my $.02.
      Absolutely, but unfortunately, intangible goods such as Software Downloads are now covered, I am selling software everyday, the buyer gets to Demo the software first on site so they know exactly what they are getting, when they pay they get a download link in their email and also the software remains available to download in their account on the website......
      my terms and conditions state try before you buy and no refunds policy....

      I have many hundreds of happy customers however at least once a month I get some idiot tries to put in a false claim with papal 'item not received' .... or sometimes 'parts missing' etc etc

      this is usually quickly put to a halt with a reply to the effect of "this was a digital download made available via email link immediately after payment and also still available for download in your account, as well as our own terms and conditions, paypals user agreement also states intangible goods are not eligible for refund" .... even if the claim is escalated , i have found by using this wording I usually manage to protect myself where as previously paypal would sometimes even decide in the buyers favour even though it was intangible goods !

      I guess that is going to change now, and as paypal usually sides with the buyer, this leaves the door wide open to free loaders who want to get hold of the software for free which has taken time and thousands of dollars for people like me to have developed. Much of my business is done outside of the UK though so I will have to look into this further to avoid having to GIVE my software away because payal decides in the buyers favour.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
        That's partly why I love JVzoo. They have a system that lets you block serial refunders (or anyone who's ever made a refund).

        Pretty sweet actually... Look into it.



        Originally Posted by Dan White View Post

        Absolutely, but unfortunately, intangible goods such as Software Downloads are now covered, I am selling software everyday, the buyer gets to Demo the software first on site so they know exactly what they are getting, when they pay they get a download link in their email and also the software remains available to download in their account on the website......
        my terms and conditions state try before you buy and no refunds policy....

        I have many hundreds of happy customers however at least once a month I get some idiot tries to put in a false claim with papal 'item not received' .... or sometimes 'parts missing' etc etc

        this is usually quickly put to a halt with a reply to the effect of "this was a digital download made available via email link immediately after payment and also still available for download in your account, as well as our own terms and conditions, paypals user agreement also states intangible goods are not eligible for refund" .... even if the claim is escalated , i have found by using this wording I usually manage to protect myself where as previously paypal would sometimes even decide in the buyers favour even though it was intangible goods !

        I guess that is going to change now, and as paypal usually sides with the buyer, this leaves the door wide open to free loaders who want to get hold of the software for free which has taken time and thousands of dollars for people like me to have developed. Much of my business is done outside of the UK though so I will have to look into this further to avoid having to GIVE my software away because payal decides in the buyers favour.
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    • Profile picture of the author talfighel
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      But my philosophy is thus; if someone isn't happy with my product/service, I don't want their money.
      Not many people think like that. If someone is not happy with the service, the person who provided the service and got paid will be happy to keep the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author pauljones99
      yes but imagine selling high ticket products and then getting a refund request 5 months later? it's not really on.
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      • Profile picture of the author Angshuman Dutta
        Serial refunders will be serial refunders no matter what Paypal or the Seller does to make them happy. If everything else fails, they will just take it up with the Credit Card complany and go for a chargeback.

        The way I see it, this time there's a bit of "Seller Protection" available in the form of that "intangible items" clause thingy they've included. This time you can tell them that the buyer did receive the download and expect them to take a look at the screenshots and other proof. The knowledge that Paypal would now supposedley listen to what both parties have to say (for intangible products) might prevent some of those shade refunders from raising a dispute.

        I just hope it works that way...otherwise there's nopthing in it for sellers.
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  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
    I agree, the shady refunders usually ask for a refund faster than that.

    So if you offer a quality product i don't really see the issue in that. I think 45 days is already a pretty long period.
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    • Profile picture of the author grandforks6446
      I am in total agreement generally speaking ! however about 2 years ago i purchased a done for you site from a member who was selling 3 differant types in his wso I purchased the $97 one and was in the process of down loading it, when i became very ill and was admitted to hospital for two weeks.

      when i got out and felt strong enough to continue with my computer work I could not find the WSo nor could I figure out how to get in touch with the person who was selling it! I tried a number of times in the next couple of months to no avail, so gave up eventually.

      So people who ask for a refund are not all conn artists ! just saying>>>I have allways been an honest person and like to think most people are . its a good place generally to come from.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Thankfully I've had VERY few refund requests over the years...

    The few I remember were literally seconds after purchase. (Hehe).

    Whatever. I'd rather someone let me know up front that they're a sketchball rather than me waste any more time on that person.

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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    The biggest change is that it covers intangible products.

    Until now it was enough to say it was a digital product to win any dispute. Of course, your reputation will suffer and it is not worth it in the long term, but the seller of any digital product was protected.

    Now ... it will become complicated.

    There was a reason why those were not covered (services too). It is too hard to be fair without investing a lot of time and money in this.

    Let's say that you hire me as a consultant for 5 hours and you pay me $250. I answer your questions for five hours yet you want more. You'll start a dispute. On one side you say that you haven't received what you've been promised on the other that I've delivered and that you simply want more.

    For situations like this PayPal never covered intangible products or services. When it comes to a product bought from eBay, it is or it is not similar to the initial promise. But now there will be many shades in between.

    It's like going to a hooker. You pay her $100, she does her "job" and at the end you are "not satisfied" and you want a refund.

    Then the question raised is "what is the standard of service required in order NOT to qualify for a refund?".

    With ten thousands different products and services, this will be difficult.

    The solution for service providers and product sellers? Start logging all forms of communication, you may need it.

    Oh well, you always have BitCoin
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    • Profile picture of the author brutecky
      Originally Posted by RogozRazvan View Post

      The biggest change is that it covers intangible products.
      There is a bigger problem with buyers and intangible goods. For example I sell software. I have a 30 day refund period and I always grant refunds when requested. I clearly say if you want a refund to contact the our support with your JVZoo receipt ID within 30 days. However there is always the random ass of a buyer who does not even bother to contact support, they never ask for a refund, and just go straight to filing a dispute. The problem is that if I grant the refund via a dispute I cant charge back the affiliate for the commission I paid them. When you sell a software that is say $47 at a 70% commission to the affiliate, every one of these buyers will cost you $32 just because there are to ignorant to simply ask for a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author play2win727
    I don't think this is going to make much difference. If people are going to request a refund they do it pretty quickly. Even the scamers.

    Provide a quality service and you will not have to worry about it!
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  • Profile picture of the author thedark
    I usually give refunds to anyone if they ask, despite I do not have a money back guarantee policy and paypal does not protect buyers from intangible goods. It is much better to give a refund than to get a chargeback where paypal put you to pay 20$ chargeback fee.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Jawad96
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Actually, the policy change is nearly a month old and isn't a big deal.

      As far as the 180 days go, if someone is going to dispute something, it almost always happens within the first 3 to 5 days.

      Just an FYI - buyers have always been able to open a dispute for intangible items - the difference is that these are now covered by Buyer Protection, where they weren't in the past.

      That's actually a good thing - it's more reassuring to buyers when purchasing digital goods.

      Incidentally, they can only claim intangible items when they are "Not Received" or "Significantly Not As Described". As long as you're tracking download IP's, you're probably safe.

      If you keep good records, track everything and work closely with PayPal, it won't be a problem.
      I brought a software previously which didn't perform the task that was stated on the sales page. I opened a dispute, but it was closed within minutes after Paypal saw it was a dispute over intangible goods.
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  • Profile picture of the author nelsa
    Well to be honest I'm thining to disable pay pal payment for new payments,i will probably leave only Credit card payments and that is it,i will leave pay pal only for existing users.
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    • Profile picture of the author KassimTechnics
      Eventually that's the way to go. There are so many Paypal alternatives that people are overlooking. i particularly like Payoneer and the services they offer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
        I don't have a problem with it. The serial refunders don't need 180 day to dispute, heck they don't even need the 45 days. Nowadays sellers make you jump through hoops to get a refund, so Paypal is just adapting. You have sellers that only give a refund if read the product, wait 45 days, and lick your own tit three times.

        Buyers have been getting ripped off by these so called "Guru's" for years now, I don't have a problem with buyers getting a little love. It won't change anything, because like I said, serial refunder refund right away anyways, and true buyers do think about disputes unless you don't honor your refund policy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Alex Blades View Post

          . It won't change anything, because like I said, serial refunder refund right away anyways, and true buyers do think about disputes unless you don't honor your refund policy.
          Alex its no change if you sell an info product but its a HUGE change if you sell services or software. The serial refunders of info products yes would have read and used within 45 days but given the opportunity to continue to use services and software for additional months they WILL do so. the same will go for membership sites with monthly "drips" of content

          The major effect therefore will be in the UK and whenever if ever Paypal decides to extend intangibles in the rest of the world to the 180 day rule as well
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  • Profile picture of the author Vincent Denali
    I don't mind the longer refund policy. In fact, the longer the better in some cases. If a customer thinks he only has 30 days, it will be on his mind right after the purchase. If they have six months or a year they tend to forget about it because there is not that sense of urgency.

    As far as the tangible goods, for the few refunds I have given over the years I didn't care if it was digital or physical, if someone was not satisfied with one of my products I would gladly give them a refund. Fortunately it's only been a handful so I don't worry too much about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    As a buyer, I am glad to see this policy. I have seen several instances where the seller made certain promises in the sales letter that were not available unless you make certain purchases or buy the up-sell. Promises like "I'll be there to answer any questions" or "$500 back if you follow this plan and don't make money." Then, only after you purchase it, do you find out you have to buy an additional product or service in the hundreds of dollars and/or through his link only. The end result is a purchase that cannot be used without paying the "hidden fees".


    As a seller, it really doesn't bother me. In B&M business, there is an accounting term called "slippage." Products that disappear from inventory without being accounted for such as breakage and theft. One Walmart wanted to hire me for security because they were losing over $1 million a year. Yet, they are still a profitable store.

    The question isn't whether someone can steal from you, it should be "Can I still make a profit?"

    As for any thieves, or unsavory marketers, what goes around, comes around. As for your health, Don't sweat the small stuff!
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  • Profile picture of the author Amer A
    Hi Jawad96

    Its bad news for us because even in the law of online sales the customer has the right of returning the item within 2 weeks only.

    Regards

    Amer
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    I can see positive benefits from both the buyer and the sellers perspective.

    I have noticed that a lot of digital products go out of business in 90 days or even less.

    (What this means is that these fly by night companies have to stay in business 180 days)

    Most of the time if you have a good product and your not dishonest this policy change makes little difference, but if your a fly by the seat of your pants business, generating great sales copy but terrible products then this would be bad news for the bad sellers.

    Its all about how you look at it.
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    The main one this affects for me would be continuing development work I might be doing for a customer. Say they decided after making regular payments that they don't want to pay me at all. I did have this happen once where I lost several hundred dollars.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    The longer the dispute date the farther the buyers get from their money.

    I don't want to believe PayPal will allow buyers to have the upper hand if you have substantial proof and documentation.
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  • Profile picture of the author popbop
    Time will tell. We as PayPal merchants already know the change. However, it may take some time for the info to disseminate to the general public. Let's check back in 6 months and see if this 180 days (6 months for cryin out loud) return period is real problem or not.

    If it's really a problem, have your buyers agree to your Terms of Service (TOS) with whatever return period you like. If they request a refund after that time period expires, treat it as a breach of contract and demand payment back, or file suit. This makes absolutely no sense for small purchases, but if you're talking $100 or more, it may be worth hirning an attorney in the customer's state to draft a demand letter and put them on notice that you're not playing games if you suspect friendly fraud in the transaction. How practical this idea is a big question. But it's an idea. And, if you're a Pre-Paid Legal client (I'm not, so verify this) you might be able to use an attorney in any state to draft such a letter. Hopefully things never go beyond that. But next step is to file suit in small claims in YOUR state of business and go from there. But is a royal PITA and usually a lost cause at that point.

    Frudulent buyers bank on merchants just giving up after so much time and money is spent. But a movement of merchants taking aggressive measure to stem the tide of friendly fraud might start to make a difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Quick question -where is everyone getting the info that intangible items are now covered . reading the update page I get the below quote. was there another section?

      The revised Section 13.3 reads as follows:

      13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:
      1. Intangible items, including Digital Goods
      2. Services
      3. Real estate, including residential property
      4. Businesses
      5. Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
      6. Significantly Not As Described issues for Custom-made items
      7. Travel tickets, including airline flight tickets
      8. Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
      9. Items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought through In-Store Checkout at the retail point of sale
      10. Items that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
      11. Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
      12. Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards
      13. PayPal Direct Payments
      14. Virtual Terminal Payments
      15. Personal Payments
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      • Profile picture of the author Jawad96
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Quick question -where is everyone getting the info that intangible items are now covered . reading the update page I get the below quote. was there another section?
        Hi Mike,

        I'm not entirely sure what's going on, but Paypal have this written on their page:

        We're extending UK buyer protection to enable coverage for intangibles (services, digital goods, travel, event tickets and other intangible items). From 17 June 2014, we'll review UK buyer disputes regarding intangible items where the customer claims they have not received the item, or if the service or goods are not as described. We're also extending the time for UK buyers to open a dispute from 45 to 180 days from the payment date.

        HTML Code:
        https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/business-updates/protection-improvements
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Jawad96 View Post

          Hi Mike,

          I'm not entirely sure what's going on, but Paypal have this written on their page:
          Thanks for that. the difference applies to countries since thats specifically for the UK.
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  • Profile picture of the author kashtoday
    My take on pay pal is this change is good and bad. I allows someone that is a perpetual procrastinator to more time to refund and a serious person more time to really dig into a product to determine the value. However I feel 45 days is ample time for both types of people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Alot of people i know offer a 26-day money back guarantee. But any of them will tell you that if you purchase from them, and after 308 days you want a refund... they will give it to you. They would rather do this than trying to win a war with Paypal. Plus it just leads to more hassle for a simple sale. You shouldn't fear this change by Paypal. Alot of customers don't even know what Paypal's policies are anyway lol. All they know is that if you piss them off, they will report you to somebody - which would be Paypal, since they purchased thru them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shenpen
    There is a big upside to this: It will tend to persuade a great deal of people that doing business online is safe and not a shady online marketers chance to rip off any naive buyer. Dont misunderestimate how risk averse most people are or how little people in general know about the internet or about online business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Phil Wilkinson
    I suggest that anyone who makes software simply set their software up so that if the buyer refunds, the software stops working.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Lee
    I agree, in most cases it won't change things much. Those who request refunds within the first 30 days.But this wouldn't be the first time a cc company allowed their members to dispute a payment. 2 years ago, I had a client who paid his invoice w/american express - 6 months AFTER we provided services to him - he files a dispute claiming that he's not happy with my [page 1] results, and AMEX yanks the funds from Paypal. 3k... Gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author PBScott
    It might add additional annoyance to my business, and extra work for us as we prove that our products have been shipped etc, but having never had a claim against us result in us losing a payment, it will likely not cause any more refunds from us. Though Paypal has covered the odd claim laid against us in the past.

    Simply do as you say and say as you do, and nobody will have any legitimate claim against you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Assignmentwriter
    It is best for buyers.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Honestly I don't think it's going to change much of anything. If a buyer hasn't asked for a refund in the first 45 days then it's safe to say they aren't going to ask for one, so extending the deadline shouldn't matter much. Just my two cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Swift
    Sure these changes will allow those who want to buy a product, have a look and then get a refund more time to dispute, but as others have mentioned, I would have thought that they would get a refund before 45 days anyway.

    It would give somebody the opportunity to buy your course, go through it and then still get a refund though!

    I guess we will have to trust in the better side of human nature and hope that the vast majority are ethical enough to not take advantage of others.

    Christian
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  • Profile picture of the author Luke Dennison
    All the refunders I have come across have no shame, and they will usually refund minutes after the purchase, so I dont think this is a big deal.

    A lot of products come with a lifetime guarantee, so I don't think you should worry to much about this.

    Luke
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnnyPlan
    This was always a problem before with anyone selling Clickbank as they have such a liberal 'refund' policy on their digital content. And, now Paypal is jumping on that idea too. But, if a person pays money for a digital product and it's not delivered, there should be some remedy. You just need to show proof you gave what they paid for.
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  • Profile picture of the author SuperKC
    This is going to make a huge difference as its for USA sellers now as well.. not just the UK. The problem isn't when your doing sales in June and worried about a dispute.. but when October/November rolls around and consumers scramble for cash they are going to dispute every digital purchase they have made for as long back as they can. Its highly going to effect eBay sellers because now when this cycle happens its going to penalize the sellers selling status on the marketplace.. you get penalized now for them even requesting a return. For people using ebay and paypal together the new rules combined is a death sentence.
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    • Profile picture of the author pauljones99
      Originally Posted by SuperKC View Post

      This is going to make a huge difference as its for USA sellers now as well.. not just the UK. The problem isn't when your doing sales in June and worried about a dispute.. but when October/November rolls around and consumers scramble for cash they are going to dispute every digital purchase they have made for as long back as they can. Its highly going to effect eBay sellers because now when this cycle happens its going to penalize the sellers selling status on the marketplace.. you get penalized now for them even requesting a return. For people using ebay and paypal together the new rules combined is a death sentence.
      Yeah sadly it's true. With xmas coming up don't be surprised to see people looknig back as far a spossible what to dispute. I can understand upto 2 months but 6 is ridiculous.
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  • Profile picture of the author vishwa
    I know that this policy change may happy the shady refunders to provide more time for the chargeback. But it also helps us to fight against scam sellers too as buyer perspective.
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  • I am OK with the new policy for digital products: I see no reasons why digital products shouldnt be covered.

    HOWEVER... I dislike the 180 day policy. Nobody should need 180 to review their purchase. The former 45 days were more than enough! Keeping your refund policy open for half a year creates a bunch of problems for vendors paying their affiliates.
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