Buyer asking for a refund after sharing my product on black hat forums. What would you do?

50 replies
Hey Warriors,

I have quite an interesting situation regarding a buyer of my IMfinite Wealth product. The guy bought an upsell, downloaded it and asked for a refund immediately saying his wife bought it by accident and he wants a refund.

I'm ok with the refunds, for whatever the reason, so I try to give him refund instantly through JVZoo, but the guy has (already) filed a dispute over Paypal so JVZoo cannot process my refund request. The guy keeps harassing me over the email about the refund, while I tell him to be patient because I contacted JVZoo. After receiving support answer that I have to do the refund manually, I contact the guy asking for his transaction ID, and in meanwhile I receive google link alert - meaning a link to my OTO has been published somewhere....
wait for it....
....
Yes, the guy that's asking for a refund published direct link to my product on the blackhat forum (he has 6000+ posts there). I contacted him back saying I don't plan to give him a refund after he shared link to my product publicly and behaved like he did.

I don't care about the blackhat links, all products end up there eventually . But, all the email harassing, lying and now threats (he'll share all my products forever, he'll diss me on all the forums, he'll tell the world I never refund...) made me share this story publicly, wondering - what would you do? Refund or no refund?
#black #blackhat #buyer #forums #hat #product #refund #sharing
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Phill Wess View Post

    what would you do? Refund or no refund?
    Refund - without question, if your sales copy offers them.

    These are not circumstances over which it's worth taking any risk at all that anyone could ever imagine you've "put yourself in the wrong, too".

    Distinguish yourself from "people like that" with your behavior.

    I'd also forward factual details, with evidence, of what's happened, to any appropriate places of authority (FTC online fraud department, police, industry regulators, PayPal, JVZoo, and so on).
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    • Profile picture of the author Pedro Lopes
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Refund - without question, if your sales copy offers them.

      These are not circumstances over which it's worth taking any risk at all that anyone could ever imagine you've "put yourself in the wrong, too".

      Distinguish yourself from "people like that" with your behavior.

      I'd also forward factual details, with evidence, of what's happened, to any appropriate places of authority (FTC online fraud department, police, industry regulators, PayPal, JVZoo, and so on).
      I think Alexa is spot on here.

      I found myself getting angry just reading about what this guy did, but in situations like this you must elevate your level and not meet people at theirs.

      Best of luck!
      -Pedro
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  • Profile picture of the author MrFume
    Seems to me you have every right to be pissed off - these people who behave without any concern for others, and want to come off as a hero to the forums they like, just try any trick in the book to get something for free. You know what, very few of these BH types actually amount to anything - they spend so much time looking for short cuts and 'hacks' they just don't get it, it's business and it takes effort and time. Forget about it man, you tried to do the right thing, he very obviously did not.
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  • Profile picture of the author jeremy49
    Phill
    There are two ways that you can look at this

    1) Michael O'leary
    CEO of Ryanair a cheap no frill airline in the UK. Even negative publicity is good publicity. Here is a couple of his famous quotes
    A "Germans will crawl bollock-naked over broken glass to get low fares."

    B "If drink sales are falling off, we get the pilots to engineer a bit of turbulence. That usually spikes sales."

    or 2) You are a man of your word
    Regardless of the circumstances, you refund a customer even if he is a Sh** F**** B****** . Again turn it to your advantage and post it up as an example of how good you are and how this man has really lost out etc..

    Good luck
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jeremy49 View Post

      1) Michael O'leary
      CEO of Ryanair a cheap no frill airline in the UK.
      Don't look now, but (just like Gerald Ratner, before him) he did his business quite a lot of harm with those, and has now extensively and repeatedly apologised in public, and withdrawn his rude remarks, and done a series of interviews to try to get the message across that "he's a nice guy really, and unreservedly sorry for what he said", in an attempt to mitigate some of the damage he did. They've spent a fortune trying to undo the negative publicity they got.

      Originally Posted by jeremy49 View Post

      Even negative publicity is good publicity.
      A myth!

      Negative publicity can be very damaging. Businesses shave gone under because of it. It depends on the circumstances.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim3
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        ... just like Gerald Ratner....

        Negative publicity can be damaging. Businesses shave gone under because of it. It depends on the circumstances.

        .

        Thanks Alexa for reminding me/us of this mega-costly gaffe, it's worth quoting in all its glory, to dispel the 'any publicity is good publicity' myth.

        here it is from Wiki.


        The speech
        Although widely regarded as "tacky", Ratners shops and their wares were nevertheless extremely popular with the public...

        until Ratner made a speech at the Institute of Directors on 23 April 1991 During the speech, he commented:

        "We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95.

        People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?"
        I say, "because it's total crap."


        He compounded this by going on to remark that some of the earrings were
        "cheaper than an M&S prawn sandwich but probably wouldn't last as long
        ".

        " Ratner's comments have become textbook examples of the folly of making fun of, and showing contempt to, customers.

        In the furore that ensued, customers exacted their revenge by staying away from Ratner shops.

        After the speech, the value of the Ratner group plummeted by around £500 million, which very nearly resulted in the firm's collapse.

        Ratner resigned in November 1992 and the group changed its name to Signet Group in September 1993.
        Gerald Ratner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        ...and that was 500M GBP not USD!


        Sharp businessman Gerald, but what a 14 carat plonker!
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  • Profile picture of the author skriker
    Yep. He can take legal action (From a law student) As it is stated that you have a refund policy which is viewable. He has all the right in the world to take action if you don't give him a refund.

    Hope this helps
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I certainly would not give a pirate a refund, but that's me. I'd send him a bill for all the copies he gave away.

    PS. You're not allowed to drop links in posts to your WSOs or your own sites. I'd remove it before a mod does if I were you.
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  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
    It depends on whether or not you had a refund policy.

    If you did then you should give a refund instantly, and next time make sure you protect your download pages. Sure if you have a good product it will be shared, but make them work for it
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  • Profile picture of the author Phill Wess
    Wow, thanks for so many good replies in such a short time.

    I have a refund policy, and will give him his refund. Not because of the policy, but because of my values and integrity towards buyers, no matter how sleazy they are.

    Here's another example - just recently another fella from blackhat forum contacted me about the oto saying he really likes the product, apologizing that he got it for free. We discussed it like two normal people and I even gave him a discount for the oto, helping him setup the product.

    Lesson of the day (for all the pirates): Even if you download my or other products for free, the stuff WON'T work because you are all over the place. Focus on one product and stick with it!

    Cheers,
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Phill Wess View Post

      Here's another example - just recently another fella from blackhat forum contacted me about the oto saying he really likes the product, apologizing that he got it for free. We discussed it like two normal people and I even gave him a discount for the oto, helping him setup the product.
      Which he probably thanked you profusely for, laughed behind your back, and then shared all over Black Hat forums. Pirates are pirates. They aren't customers and they aren't "normal people."
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Banned
    Refund - without question, if your sales copy offers them.
    Obviously.

    Sure if you have a good product it will be shared,
    Make sure all your products are well branded and the scamers will be doing you a favor with all the free distribution.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    Use that situation in your new and improved refund policy.

    "I will grant a refund, but if you buy my product, ask for a refund immediately after downloading, then I find you shared my product on a pirate forum, I'm not giving you your money back. I will also send you a bill for every person who downloads the product from your thievery, forward your information to the authorities, the payment processor and any government bodies I can find that deal with fraud. My goal is to make it so you have a difficult time sleeping at night waiting for a knock on your door from someone who tells you face to face that stealing isn't ok just because it's online."
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by PPC-Coach View Post

      Use that situation in your new and improved refund policy.

      "I will grant a refund, but if you buy my product, ask for a refund immediately after downloading, then I find you shared my product on a pirate forum, I'm not giving you your money back. I will also send you a bill for every person who downloads the product from your thievery, forward your information to the authorities, the payment processor and any government bodies I can find that deal with fraud. My goal is to make it so you have a difficult time sleeping at night waiting for a knock on your door from someone who tells you face to face that stealing isn't ok just because it's online."
      I share and approve of and endorse the sentiment entirely, but I'd never actually do this because I'd expect it to make such situations worse, overall, rather than better.

      You can't approach such people with logic and reason: they have a totally different moral compass from the one you and I share; they genuinely believe that they're right and we're wrong. There's no point in trying to educate them, in that context. They're too stupid. That's just going to come across to them as a "challenge" and increase the chances of them uploading our products to torrent/file-sharing/subfusc-headwear sites.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author deekay
    If it says "100% refund - no questions asked" on your sales copy, refund.
    Otherwise, send one strong, yet professional, email to that customer stating your position why you can't process a refund. Back up all of your communications (email, chat logs on Skype).

    If it isn't that much, I'd refund it if I were you. Use your time and energy on the more pressing areas of your life and business. I think that'll be more profitable than defend a few bucks against that customer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Phill Wess
      Originally Posted by deekay View Post

      If it isn't that much, I'd refund it if I were you. Use your time and energy on the more pressing areas of your life and business. I think that'll be more profitable than defend a few bucks against that customer.
      That's exactly what I just did. Placed a refund and continued working on my next product.

      @Alexa - You're right, there's no education or nice talk here. They just live for to "REP" stats on their forums and are lurking daily for new stuff to snatch. Most of them are hiding behind - "freedom to information" statement which they don't even understand..

      I hope this topic will help other marketers in similar situations. Try not to get agitated but just push that refund button, take a long walk and focus back on your goals
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  • Profile picture of the author sathuri
    If you have a Refund Policy then you should refund but at the same time don't leave him like that because he will do the same to others too so goto the websites where the download is posted and ask the website owner to remove the link and send a "cease and desist" letter to the blackhat forum and if the guy belongs to warriorforum then ask a mod to close his account. Then send a email to the guy saying that you have lodged a complaint with police and they are tracing his address through his paypal identity , this should knock the shit of that guy at least for some time.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I have noticed that people who get stuff for free tend to give me poor reviews. Hey, it goes with the territory I guess. What do you expect from a serial refund addict who wants to justify his bad actions to the rest of us. Yeah, he claims the product is no good - of course. Part of the world we live in. OK so my advice is:

    Fire your COSTomer!

    Yeah, he cost you money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charles Douglas
    Phill,

    DMCA, can protect your digital products against illegal sharing.
    Professional takedowns starting at $199 and "Do It Yourself" takedowns starting at $10 / month.

    You can't stop pirates sharing illegally your products, but you can make it harder for them.
    I'm just sharing this option with you, good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author TinkBD
    Refund, with a smile if you can manage it... As John Taylor points out to me when one of us finds my products on BH sites, they wouldn't have purchased anyway, so, likely no sales lost.

    I take delight in the fact that because my products are about Fiction -- which take a LOT of work-- the odds are low that they'll put the product to use anyway.

    Edited to add: Bless their baby hearts!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Brownsword
    I'm of the opinion that most products shared on BH sites are downloaded by professional downloaders who abhor an empty hard drive...

    Since it's JVZoo, don't forget to ban the customer.

    But yeah, don't waste time on it. Move forward. Those who see value in what you do will reciprocate, and they are your real customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      No refund.

      Assume you have a refund policy - still no refund.

      IMHO, and I won't mince words here - anyone giving this thief a refund is an idiot and either shouldn't be in business or their business isn't worth much.

      (Yes that's harsh and everyone is entitled to their own opinion and every situation is different. I said "this thief." This is someone stealing from you and to say as a blanket rule sure, no problem, have a nice day, have my product, give it to others, would you like something else to steal? - doesn't make sense to me.)

      The next thing you do is submit DMCA take down notices to the BH forum and its web host for contributory infringement. I am not sure how your direct link is working, or if you can change it. Perhaps with some php or htaccess you capture the referrer and block anyone coming from the BH forum.

      The next thing you do is add his email to the blacklist on JVZoo.

      If the buyer is identifiable and in the US (rare), consider registering the copyright with the US Copyright Office and send him a demand letter for $5000 or you'll file suit.

      If you have that info you forward it to the appropriate district attorney's office and hope they are not too busy chasing drug dealers to take action.


      As for why there is no refund even if there is a refund policy, why would you? This person stole from you. He is taking money out of your bank account no different than if he stole your wallet. Taking money you could be using to feed your family.

      You're not in breach of any agreement to refund because the buyer is already in breach of the purchase transaction by giving your product to others.

      I can't think of any place other than this forum, and certainly not any physical store, that when catching someone stealing from them they would reward and send the thief money.

      He can take legal action (From a law student)
      LOL. No, he won't. (From a lawyer)

      bad publicity
      Have some pride in yourself and your product. And grow a spine.

      Otherwise, there is nothing to stop someone who didn't even buy your product from simply demanding monthly payments so they won't create bad publicity for you. Has anyone suggesting this even thought this out?

      time suck
      This I agree with. You don't want to waste time corresponding with the idiot and you never want to get in a debate where someone has the opportunity to make threats, etc. You will find the JVZoo block and submitting a DMCA complaint can be done in a minute.

      Learning how to block improper downloads of your product is time well spent.

      .

      .


      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam Mann
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        No refund.

        Assume you have a refund policy - still no refund.

        IMHO, and I won't mince words here - anyone giving this thief a refund is an idiot and either shouldn't be in business or their business isn't worth much.

        (Yes that's harsh and everyone is entitled to their own opinion and every situation is different. I said "this thief." This is someone stealing from you and to say as a blanket rule sure, no problem, have a nice day, have my product, give it to others, would you like something else to steal? - doesn't make sense to me.)

        The next thing you do is submit DMCA take down notices to the BH forum and its web host for contributory infringement. I am not sure how your direct link is working, or if you can change it. Perhaps with some php or htaccess you capture the referrer and block anyone coming from the BH forum.

        The next thing you do is add his email to the blacklist on JVZoo.

        If the buyer is identifiable and in the US (rare), consider registering the copyright with the US Copyright Office and send him a demand letter for $5000 or you'll file suit.

        If you have that info you forward it to the appropriate district attorney's office and hope they are not too busy chasing drug dealers to take action.


        As for why there is no refund even if there is a refund policy, why would you? This person stole from you. He is taking money out of your bank account no different than if he stole your wallet. Taking money you could be using to feed your family.

        You're not in breach of any agreement to refund because the buyer is already in breach of the purchase transaction by giving your product to others.

        I can't think of any place other than this forum, and certainly not any physical store, that when catching someone stealing from them they would reward and send the thief money.

        LOL. No, he won't. (From a lawyer)

        Have some pride in yourself and your product. And grow a spine.

        Otherwise, there is nothing to stop someone who didn't even buy your product from simply demanding monthly payments so they won't create bad publicity for you. Has anyone suggesting this even thought this out?

        This I agree with. You don't want to waste time corresponding with the idiot and you never want to get in a debate where someone has the opportunity to make threats, etc. You will find the JVZoo block and submitting a DMCA complaint can be done in a minute.

        Learning how to block improper downloads of your product is time well spent.

        .

        .


        .
        Epic Reply and I agree with you 100%.

        If I were you wouldn't refund him instead I would send him an email stating that if he requests a refund/harasses/threatens one more time... not only will he not get a refund but i will block him from JVzoo, Send a detailed email to PayPal and charge you for copyright infringement (which is a very... very serious offense).

        But you refunded him didn't you? You are way too nice lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Phill Wess
        UPDATE WITH A TWIST:

        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        No refund.

        Assume you have a refund policy - still no refund.

        IMHO, and I won't mince words here - anyone giving this thief a refund is an idiot and either shouldn't be in business or their business isn't worth much.
        Hey kindsvater, this was the kick in the a** I needed...

        My initial response to the guy (before posting a thread) was an email saying I won't refund him a dime and I'll send Paypal all the evidence I had.

        Somewhere along the way as this thread developed I changed my mind and send an email to jv partner to make the refund so we could just get on with our lives...

        I'm really glad he was against the refund, and didn't press that button in Paypal...

        Lesson learned!

        Thank you all for this valuable discussion, I hope it helped others too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Leigh Burke
    The lesson here is the mental space this has consumed. You're worried about your product being on the blackhat forum, you're worried that you can't process the refund. You're worried about your reputation. It's all unnecessary worry that you don't need. There's some really great replies here, the best thing to do in all circumstances like this is to refund immediately (if you can) and then move on with your life.
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  • Profile picture of the author JtxTop
    If you are sure you can sell more of your product to other people, just refund to this 1 person and 'get rid' of him...
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  • Profile picture of the author Phillip Nguyen
    Hey Phil Wess,

    There will always be customers that never intend to buy a product in the first place. If you have a refund policy then you have to keep your word regardless of the circumstances. It's great that you did.

    Also, products will always end up in the blackhat forums, so yes you will lose some sales that way.
    But think of it this way, it's free branding and advertising for you. If a person really likes your product, they're going to keep an eye out for your next one; or opt into your list.

    So don't get too frustrated, it's all a part of the game
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  • Profile picture of the author aire
    This why you never give source code of your product! You offer it as a "WEB SERVICE"... This way, you have 100% control over which domain can they be installed. Remember, "WEB SERVICE" product is different from "LICENCED" product which can be reverse engineered within 10 mins...
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    One thing to also keep in mind is that all of those people who are illegally downloading your product from the black hat forum were never going to buy it to begin with.

    This one guy is only one sale.

    Give him his money back and figure out a way to block his ip from visiting any site on your server as well as delete him from your email list.

    Otherwise focus on the people who will gladly part with their money in exchange for your product.

    I guess this makes me an idiot and I should close up shop. Nice knowing all of you...
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  • Profile picture of the author naidyphoon
    There was a guy who threatened to request a refund (crazy,I know) if I didn't give him the upsell for free. I gave him a refund.

    There was a guy who said "I've found your product to be of high quality, however I've decided to request a refund" (yes that was exactly what he said). I gave him a refund,

    There was a guy who said "great stuff, but unfortunately this is not a method that I'm willing to put much effort into, therefore I'm requesting a refund."

    There was a guy who did all the above and shared my stuff on blackhat forums, I gave him a refund.

    Why did I refund them?

    1.) Honestly the frustration and tedium associated with dealing with these clowns just ain't worth it. Like Alexa said these people have a diametrically different moral compass than most people, reasoning with them is futile. I'm not going to stress myself out for a mere $17 or $37.

    2.) I offer a no question asked money back guarantee. Simple as that, it's cut and dry.

    Though I don't know why they feel obliged to give the most absurd reasons. At least have the decency to lie to me. Tell me that you need to pay the bills, tell me that you bought it by accident, don't mock me by saying that my product is excellent but you've decide to request a refund instead.
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  • Profile picture of the author Javisito
    I found one of my product shared over the Blackhat forums and that is one thing. But what you're saying that this guy did to you is just Unaccepable. Unforunately there will always be people looking for shortcuts everywhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author elusian
    Clearly this person who bought your product and has behaved this way has no integrity. There is little you can do about that.

    The only thing you can focus on is whether you stand behind your word or not, can you look yourself in the mirror in the morning? What feels better to you? Keeping to your word about refunds or allowing this idiot to get you to act impulsively out of frustration?

    He is going to bad mouth you either way. Run your business with integrity and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    1. If you have proof this guy is the same one who shared your product, do NOT refund the idiot. I take offense as a vendor to all the people above who have said to refund the guy. What sort of a message is that sending to these people? Do you really think we will solve this problem by giving into these idiots everytime? You know what they say, if you are not part of the solution...

    2. A no questions asked refund policy becomes absolutely irrelevant the moment someone breaks the law. So please do not listen to those saying to honor your refund guarantee. Did this customer honor his obligations as a customer? I don't think so!

    3. To those people who always say, "don't worry, they would never have bought your product anyway". Thats irrelevant and a lame argument. Sharing products like that is plain illegal. It is an offense. It should not be tolerated at all and making excuses for this type of behavior is just ludicrous.

    I really do not understand anyone who wants to call themselves a publisher or vendor and would make excuses for twits like this. We don't need those sort of sellers in our industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    This is the BIG problem with most people's blanket "30 day refund guarantee". I've always made it a company wide policy that we offer refunds but with certain stipulations... First, we don't offer a refund if you don't contact us & launch a dispute or chargeback (We fight them and WIN).... And secondly if you engage in any illegal sharing.
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  • Profile picture of the author sirtiman
    No refund to a criminal guy. Tell him to get lost.
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  • Profile picture of the author TomVa
    WOW I just don't understand some of you, either you're way to nice, naive or just don't care too much about the products you're selling. Good GOD I CAN NOT stand a thief or a lair or scammer just grinds me to my core. I don't use them type of place I buy all my own products, Photoshop BOUGHT, Dreamweaver BOUGHT and 1000's of dollars more in software and products. I use Pandora for music and PAY them as well.

    No I am not a goodie goodie I just respect people that work hard and allow people as myself to use their products. *shrugs* Good luck to everyone that refunds, bends over backwards to the thieves, crooks, and what not. Tell ya though.

    If I didn't have morals, after reading this thread I would go to each and everyone of you that said, "refund" and buy your product and still ask for a refund for no simple reason because you said it's ok to steal from you!
    Sorry I really shouldn't be posting atm not in a good mood and reading this just pushed me over the top.

    Have a great rest of the day.
    TOM
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  • Profile picture of the author SonnyKing
    Banned
    This is really a TOS issue.

    If you had a tos that had specific language about something like this (such as abuse of intellectual property) then no...you should not give him his money back.

    In fact there should on your tos complete null/void if your product was abused, which it clearly was since its on the blackhat forums.

    Whatever the issue is...it was your property to sell. You most likely did not give resell rights or any other rights with purchase. A sales page acts like a contract some times and with a money back guarantee needs to be connected to a tos. But even if you don't have that in your tos you're no entitled to give that punk a refund since he abused your product.
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    I have a zero tolerance policy for pirates.

    Adult is the lead indicator for info marketing. What happened to the adult industry? Decimated by pirate forums and tube sites. Now they've gotta do webcam non-leveraged content delivery. As adult goes, so does information marketing. a big lesson learned there. Turn a blind eye at your peril. I'm one of the world's top IMers (though not in the IM niche) and please heed that warning.

    -k
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  • Profile picture of the author Humbee360
    This is a very interesting subject and one that should be discussed, I do not subscribe to the Don't let it bother you premis.

    (It is true that there is nothing you can do to 100 percent stop piracy)

    But you can reduce it by making it difficult and by using a licensing system.

    The Number one Reason why I feel this way is a simple one.

    My Customers Deserve it.

    Think about it this way, If you sell your product to 100 people all who paid full price and want to take your product and be productive with that product.

    If you as the seller do not care about Black Hat Sharing, Piracy, stolen merchandise.

    (of course we all care, but what I mean here is that IF you do not care enough to take any action at all)

    Then what does that say to your paying customers?

    Do they not Deserve to have a product that is as protected from theft as you can make it?

    Do they not Deserve to have access to a product that has not been shared all over the internet for free?

    (I know its impossible to stop completely)

    But, you can slow them down and that gives your paying customers something they might not be getting at other sales outlets.

    Protection and longevity.

    Sure it does eventually end up where it does not belong, but lets consider this thing from the customers viewpoint, the Value of your product goes down when its shared, simple logic.

    I want my customers to get the best value and that means fighting theft where ever it happens, I dont let it consume my life, but I do everything I can to keep it down to a minimum and this lets my customers get what they pay for.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie123
    I would like to know the name of this person...to be on the lookout from any purchase from him, lol! Just kidding. I know that it is an Internet marketing imperative that you a give a refund guarantee, but not everyone has to. It depends how you feel about your product. If not just clearly state "No Refunds." Whether you have a refund policy or not, it is practically a sum-zero game. as you will either lose sales from people who will not buy because of that or you will lose sales to people who you have to refund and/or get black hat copies of your product elsewhere. In the end...just the price of doing business! My two sense!
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  • Profile picture of the author imogenhobbs
    The most you can do is repeatedly report all the infringing links. As a business owner, you need to adhere to your promises. Think about the bigger picture... You wouldn't have wanted these people in your sales funnel anyway. They wouldn't buy your backends nor have the money available to.

    imogen
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  • Profile picture of the author ZephyrIon
    Originally Posted by Phill Wess View Post

    Hey Warriors,

    I have quite an interesting situation regarding a buyer of my IMfinite Wealth product. The guy bought an upsell, downloaded it and asked for a refund immediately saying his wife bought it by accident and he wants a refund.

    I'm ok with the refunds, for whatever the reason, so I try to give him refund instantly through JVZoo, but the guy has (already) filed a dispute over Paypal so JVZoo cannot process my refund request. The guy keeps harassing me over the email about the refund, while I tell him to be patient because I contacted JVZoo. After receiving support answer that I have to do the refund manually, I contact the guy asking for his transaction ID, and in meanwhile I receive google link alert - meaning a link to my OTO has been published somewhere....
    wait for it....
    ....
    Yes, the guy that's asking for a refund published direct link to my product on the blackhat forum (he has 6000+ posts there). I contacted him back saying I don't plan to give him a refund after he shared link to my product publicly and behaved like he did.

    I don't care about the blackhat links, all products end up there eventually . But, all the email harassing, lying and now threats (he'll share all my products forever, he'll diss me on all the forums, he'll tell the world I never refund...) made me share this story publicly, wondering - what would you do? Refund or no refund?
    Nothing you can do. If they charge you back you'll owe more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Javisito
    Nice to see there is some people who don't think he deserve a refund.

    Of course he should not have it. I got a guy a while ago requesting to become my affiliate through Jvzoo the minute after he bought the product through his affiliate link and requested a refund on top of it.

    He ended up being banned, no commission and no refund.

    The problem in our market is trust, that is why we offer refund policies. But what the HECK, the problem is TRUST. And that work both ways, if a customer try to scam you then show him who's boss!

    For all other legit refund requests of course one should honor it.

    Regards,
    Sven
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    • Profile picture of the author Phill Wess
      Wow, guys thanks for your engagement and additional suggestions.

      I've written it in one of my posts but the guy didn't receive a refund in the end!

      One thing I didn't mention before - he actually send me an email asking why I'm such a prick?

      Because, some other product vendors willingly upload their products on black hat forums and encourage sharing... By doing so, I can only have benefits because more people will use my product!

      After that, I just thanked him for helping me reach broader audience

      Lessons learned for future launches:
      - better download protection
      - updating refund policy
      - stop wasting any time on those "freedom fighters"
      - ....continue the list...
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    I find it helps a lot to have clear, brief TOS, FAQ and rules on the site, eg "by ordering, you agree.." a/b/c.. so if anything comes up, you can point them to it
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    • Profile picture of the author Jawad96
      Hi guys,

      Bit late, but I was just wondering how the actual blackhat sites survive? How can a forum that's sole purpose is to distribute paid content not be taken down by the hosting company and the owner taken to court as the hosting company would know their name, address etc.

      Moreover, why do Google index these sites?
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  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    @Jawad96:
    Most of these sites exist on user generated content. i.e. forums and file-share sites.

    These sites have some legal protection against liability for stolen and illegal material.

    The onus is on the copyright holder to provide a DMCA Takedown request to the offending site to assert ownership of the material and request a takedown.

    Without a specific request a site is not liable as it is conceivable they do not even know the files are on their servers.

    Google has started taking links out of the SERPS that have a large number of DMCA Takedown requests. But Google says they will not ban a whole domain for a violation of a few pages. So most pirate sites with thousands of pages only have a small percentage of their pages blocked from the search because only a small percentage actually get a DMCA takedown request.

    Also most BH forums do not actually host the stolen or illegal material. They just host links to file share sites. Again, taking down the BH forum post won't take down your files from the share sites.

    You need to find the dropbox sites hosting your files and have them take the files down with DMCA notice. Then all the BH forum links and shared links will go "404 error".
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    • Profile picture of the author Jawad96
      Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

      @Jawad96:
      Most of these sites exist on user generated content. i.e. forums and file-share sites.

      These sites have some legal protection against liability for stolen and illegal material.

      The onus is on the copyright holder to provide a DMCA Takedown request to the offending site to assert ownership of the material and request a takedown.

      Without a specific request a site is not liable as it is conceivable they do not even know the files are on their servers.

      Google has started taking links out of the SERPS that have a large number of DMCA Takedown requests. But Google says they will not ban a whole domain for a violation of a few pages. So most pirate sites with thousands of pages only have a small percentage of their pages blocked from the search because only a small percentage actually get a DMCA takedown request.

      Also most BH forums do not actually host the stolen or illegal material. They just host links to file share sites. Again, taking down the BH forum post won't take down your files from the share sites.

      You need to find the dropbox sites hosting your files and have them take the files down with DMCA notice. Then all the BH forum links and shared links will go "404 error".
      Thanks for this, surely the problem lies with the forum as well? It is providing a convenient method to be able to search for links to file host sites that have the product to download.

      While they are not directly hosting the product, the forum is what should I say a 'hub' of illegal activity and its primary motive is to promote sharing of links to where the product is hosted? So how come the blackhat sites/forum get shut down?

      Thanks
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      • Profile picture of the author onSubie
        Originally Posted by Jawad96 View Post

        While they are not directly hosting the product, the forum is what should I say a 'hub' of illegal activity and its primary motive is to promote sharing of links to where the product is hosted? So how come the blackhat sites/forum get shut down?
        Obviously most BH forums are well aware of what they are doing and take advantage of the difficulty in enforcing anti-piracy measures.

        But the laws must protect everyone equally.

        YouTube played a big role because the MPAA wanted to sue them for every violation and YouTube's defence was "a million files are uploaded every day. We can't police them all".

        This is the kind of thing these types of laws are designed to prevent.

        The NSA, FBI, CIA and other LE agencies want it the way you put it.

        Shut everyone down and ask questions later.
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  • Profile picture of the author ibugu
    Refund.
    And document and post everything you can find on him.
    Signature

    Terry Grieve
    Owner of IBUGU
    Internet Business User Group Unlimited
    Mastering Online Marketing Since 1996
    http://www.terrygrieve.com/

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