Sorry, I just don't believe you.

105 replies
Andrew Fox just sent out an email with a link to a video while also mentioning his fantastic vacation on a luxury yacht.

I am NOT saying he is fabricating, but the nature of the video is so entirely over-used, my natural instinct these days is to just think to myself, "I don't believe you."

Let me tell you I did not finish the video because when the first half of the video shows me NOTHING about what he is offering, but instead rambles on endlessly about "limited time offer", "nobody will ever get this offer again", "this video will be removed forever", "someone makes $20,000 month", blah, blah, blah.. X - close window.

Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?

Andrew Fox may very well be the most honest person online, but I simply do not have time to hear these guys boast about their lives, money, vacations, testimonials etc. There are just too many of you. This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.

NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.
  • Profile picture of the author Ian Jackson
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Andrew Fox just sent out an email with a link to a video while also mentioning his fantastic vacation on a luxury yacht.

    I am NOT saying he is fabricating, but the nature of the video is so entirely over-used, my natural instinct these days is to just think to myself, "I don't believe you."

    Let me tell you I did not finish the video because when the first half of the video shows me NOTHING about what he is offering, but instead rambles on endlessly about "limited time offer", "nobody will ever get this offer again", "this video will be removed forever", "someone makes $20,000 month", blah, blah, blah.. X - close window.

    Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?

    Andrew Fox may very well be the most honest person online, but I simply do not have time to hear these guys boast about their lives, money, vacations, testimonials etc. There are just too many of you. This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.

    NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.
    Absolutely. Historically, I've had all this BS padding too, a lot in direct mailings from IM people like Andrew Reynolds and other people who've been under his tutelage. Not saying Andrew's not good at his vocation, quite the contrary, but the waffle is blinding.
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    • Profile picture of the author hunty
      Originally Posted by Ian Jackson View Post

      Absolutely. Historically, I've had all this BS padding too, a lot in direct mailings from IM people like Andrew Reynolds and other people who've been under his tutelage. Not saying Andrew's not good at his vocation, quite the contrary, but the waffle is blinding.

      I totally agree with what you are saying...I subscribed to mr Reynolds cash on demand course at $29 a month, and every module is filled with how much he earns and the lifestyle he has..I know he has done well and his teaching methods are very good....but do we really need to have the hype rammed down our throats..
      All the limited and one time never to be repeated offers are all mindgames to get people to buy the products straight away.
      What really makes me laugh is that if you exit the page on a lot of these one off offers, you tend to get a virtual agent offering you the product for less anyway????
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron.
    If I made $20K a month only me, the IRS and my accountant would know about it. I guess that's why I have such a disdain for IM. I want to use the internet as a tool to market my service business and that's it. It's like some sort of cult with this online stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
      Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

      If I made $20K a month only me, the IRS and my accountant would know about it. I guess that's why I have such a disdain for IM. I want to use the internet as a tool to market my service business and that's it. It's like some sort of cult with this online stuff.
      I have to agree with you here!

      I see it as being two different kind of marketers here:

      Those that sell outside the group

      Those that sell inside the group

      The latter is more alike to pyramid scheme salesperson offering time and time again to bring you riches and fame. Appealing purely to greed.
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  • Profile picture of the author ss442
    Hi Marty, I can relate, I am on a several lists and all that "limited time" stuff is wearing thin on me too.

    What marketers are focused on is 'getting the sale as soon as possible' and thus the "buy me before it's too late" syndrome. I kind of like the thought that the product and owner is going to be around for a while.

    I know marketing is always changing but I agree with you here. Good point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron.
      Is there such a thing in which you sign up to a ezine and the ezine actually provides value......no sales, no "sponsered ads", nothing involving a sales pitch. Just good old fashioned value?

      I think for my ezine I am going to do it that way. The only thing I'll put is my contact info at the bottom. That's it.



      Originally Posted by ss442 View Post

      Hi Marty, I can relate, I am on a several lists and all that "limited time" stuff is wearing thin on me too.

      What marketers are focused on is 'getting the sale as soon as possible' and thus the "buy me before it's too late" syndrome. I kind of like the thought that the product and owner is going to be around for a while.

      I know marketing is always changing but I agree with you here. Good point.
      Signature
      "Perseverance is a great element of success. If you only knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody"
      -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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      • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
        Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

        Is there such a thing in which you sign up to a ezine and the ezine actually provides value......no sales, no "sponsered ads", nothing involving a sales pitch. Just good old fashioned value?

        I think for my ezine I am going to do it that way. The only thing I'll put is my contact info at the bottom. That's it.
        good idea. Check out Paul Myers's TalkBiz ezine. He does
        pitch stuff (mostly his own reports) but most of it's about
        how stuff works. Always fun to read.
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      • Profile picture of the author THK
        Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

        Is there such a thing in which you sign up to a ezine and the ezine actually provides value......no sales, no "sponsered ads", nothing involving a sales pitch.

        My guess would be "NO". Some non profit charitable organizations might have something like that. Why would I want to sign up for a marketer's newsletter who don't know how to sell. If they are good at it, they will mix the value with sales pitch and make me want to buy. If they don't pitch at all, I would think they are not confident in their abilities. Good ones will know how to strike a balance.

        After all it is a marketing newsletter we are talking about.

        Tanvir
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    • Profile picture of the author TOCExpert
      Originally Posted by ss442 View Post

      Hi Marty, I can relate, I am on a several lists and all that "limited time" stuff is wearing thin on me too.

      What marketers are focused on is 'getting the sale as soon as possible' and thus the "buy me before it's too late" syndrome. I kind of like the thought that the product and owner is going to be around for a while.

      I know marketing is always changing but I agree with you here. Good point.
      I have a similar story but I did not unsubscribe from all the gurus. Instead I file them without reading them so that I can stay focused. My thought is that if I need some information, or help on something, I can search that folder to see if there is something there that can help me.
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      Dr Lisa
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    Andrew Fox is a very successful and well known marketer and super affiliate - his yacht and ferrari are the real deal.

    I suppose if your marketing is more successful then his, you can tell him 'what works'.
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    -Jason

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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      Andrew Fox is a very successful and well known marketer and super affiliate - his yacht and ferrari are the real deal.

      I suppose if your marketing is more successful then his, you can tell him what works'.
      You miss the point, as I am saying what works on me. I know there is going to be big love for any IMer I mention here, but his just came in today and it wasn't effective.

      On the other hand, I got a few really good and helpful videos from StomperNet recently, just to let you know I am not out to bash your friend.
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      • Profile picture of the author USEO
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        You miss the point,...
        I don't think Jason does miss the point.

        Your Title Say's "Sorry, I just don't believe you."

        Jason's reply is saying "his is the real deal, he does have the cars, he does
        have the yacht, he does have the money".

        You don't believe him - Jason "knows" it's true.

        That said I totally understand why you don't get turned on by AF's
        flaunting his wealth.

        For him, it clearly works, it turns on enough people for a few minutes and
        just long enough for them to get the Plastic Out and buy his stuff.

        Just my thrupence worth.

        Craig K.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        You miss the point, as I am saying what works on me. I know there is going to be big love for any IMer I mention here, but his just came in today and it wasn't effective.

        On the other hand, I got a few really good and helpful videos from StomperNet recently, just to let you know I am not out to bash your friend.
        Yeah but here's the thing... You didn't like Andrews video and didn't buy nothing... You liked (loved) StomperNet's video but you still didn't buy nothing...

        So what's the point...

        Point is you are not the target market (obviously) and to say something isn't successful or doesn't work just because it didn't make you buy something is pretty lame... as you can clearly see you aren't even in the target market...

        Truth is, those videos you be talking about DO WORK to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

        Mike Hill
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        • Profile picture of the author Marty S
          Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

          Point is you are not the target market (obviously) and to say something isn't successful or doesn't work just because it didn't make you buy something is pretty lame... as you can clearly see you aren't even in the target market...

          Mike Hill
          What is pretty lame about your comment Mike is that I did not say it doesn't work, nor did I say it wasn't successful... I said it doesn't work on me. You may have noticed I have been trying to make that point, had you read a little closer.

          The reference to a recent stompernet video is that they seem to be able to create videos without the over-the-top hype and are one of the most successful businesses EVER in pulling in new paying members.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
            Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

            What is pretty lame about your comment Mike is that I did not say it doesn't work, nor did I say it wasn't successful... I said it doesn't work on me. You may have noticed I have been trying to make that point, had you read a little closer.

            The reference to a recent stompernet video is that they seem to be able to create videos without the over-the-top hype and are one of the most successful businesses EVER in pulling in new paying members.

            Quite frankly ... Who the hell cares then?? This whole thread is a lame duck... "Hey let's talk about what doesn't work on me..." Christ, you'd have thought you were the only one in the market...

            What value does starting this thread bring then?

            Mike Hill
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    • Profile picture of the author rapidscc
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      Andrew Fox is a very successful and well known marketer and super affiliate - his yacht and ferrari are the real deal.

      I suppose if your marketing is more successful then his, you can tell him 'what works'.
      Hi Jason,

      I think I can see marty's point here..She's just saying that people should focus on value in their marketing..What can they give people...what is their value proposition.

      As for marketing with hype, since we are marketers, we should know that these are marketing efforts that converts..it may leave some bad taste but they work specially for newbies..So I guess they are pretty much used..

      Now this is my opinion regarding this matter..If we are affected by this types of marketing it simply means somehow our mentality is still that of a buyer's.

      Why not do the same instead, but this time add the "thing" that is missing with the commonly used method.

      That way you could help change it for the better..That is if we're all internet marketers here...

      oMar
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      • Profile picture of the author bemore
        I agree and correct me if I'm wrong, but are there an exceptionally large amount of these same offers coming out daily? It seems like there's more than ever, all screaming for our attention. Granted, they obviously work or else no one would be doing them.

        But, good point. Most of us don't really care how much your yacht or car costs. I don't see Bill Gates going on about how much his 50,000 square foot house costs, but I guarantee it's more than the yacht and the car put together. I think we're just so bombarded with the offers day in and day out, urgent, $10 billion worth of bonuses, etc and it's getting kind of old.

        Don't get me wrong, sometimes there's a gold nugget buried in there, but a 30-40 minute video to tell us about it is just too much. If the sales pitch can't be said in 5 minutes or less, it's wasting time.

        It probably stems from the fact that nowadays, everyone wants a ton of proof, screenshots, income and check photos, etc. I mean, it's great if someone if showing you how to use a piece of software and makes a 20 minute video on the features it has included. But a sales pitch that long is unnecessary.

        On another note, maybe it would be wise for us to step back and examine their sales process. Maybe they're on to something that we don't see yet. Something that may be used in our own business. Remember that we were all new at some point and some of these tactics may have worked on people here as well. It takes more to impress someone with knowledge anymore but there might be something that we're missing.

        Anyway, everyone is right, and wrong. Just depends on which side of the fence you're standing. Just my two cents. P
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        • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
          I think you're a little out of their "Target Market", which is those already earning 2-5k per month, and looking to reach the next level.

          If you don't have the basics down, these programs will do little for you.

          Have to find more beginners programs, like some mentioned above.

          Yes, those numbers are real for them, but they've been at it for a while.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Andrew Fox just sent out an email with a link to a video while also mentioning his fantastic vacation on a luxury yacht.
    Whereas Kevin Thompson sent one out the week before last with a link to a video while mentioning his friend's ride with a NASCAR driver.

    Nascar Racing Kevin Thompson - The Automatic Income Coach

    Compare the two and ask yourself which one makes you trust the source more.

    Three marketers to watch: Kevin Thompson, John Alanis, Jeff Czyzewski. They're doing it right. If you want to do it right, study what they do that other marketers don't.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron.
      Not really,


      it depends on what your selling and whom your selling it to. If you're selling high end consulting to CEO's do you think they would buy using those methods? No, I don't think so.




      [quote=CDarklock;921291]Whereas Kevin Thompson sent one out the week before last with a link to a video while mentioning his friend's ride with a NASCAR driver.

      Nascar Racing Kevin Thompson - The Automatic Income Coach

      Compare the two and ask yourself which one makes you trust the source more.

      Three marketers to watch: Kevin Thompson, John Alanis, Jeff Czyzewski. They're doing it right. If you want to do it right, study what they do that other marketers don't.[/quote]
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      "Perseverance is a great element of success. If you only knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody"
      -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

        If you're selling high end consulting to CEO's do you think they would buy using those methods?
        Yes. Why don't you?

        Are you all bound up in what it is, instead of what it's doing?
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Ron.
          Based on what's in your singnature, I can see why you'd think that. It seems you don't care about how it's sold, just sell it. Maybe the way I do things is not your cup of tea but I have way to much integrity to use methods like that. I would not feel comfortable doing that.

          If it works by all means go for it. It's just not for me. I want to do more than just "sell them something".


          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Yes. Why don't you?

          Are you all bound up in what it is, instead of what it's doing?
          Signature
          "Perseverance is a great element of success. If you only knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody"
          -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

            Based on what's in your singnature, I can see why you'd think that.
            No, you can't.

            Information marketing is backwards. We've all heard "sell the sizzle, not the steak" - but information marketing promises a steak and delivers the sizzle.

            "Hear that? That's steak!"

            Yeah, but you can't eat it. We're not really delivering what we sell. That's why so many people are unhappy with it. That's why refund rates are so high. That's why people call it a scam and bad-mouth us everywhere as liars and cheats.

            What makes John, Kevin, and Jeff different is they admit out of the gate that you have to work your arse off to get the steak. You don't just automatically get a steak when you hear the sizzle. There's work to be done.

            It's clear to me that you don't understand what Kevin's doing in that blog post, so I'll clarify it for you.

            - He's not bragging about how much money he has and what he does with it. He's showing you his friend having fun.

            - He's not telling you that you can or should go for a ride in a NASCAR vehicle. He's telling you that you can and should do the things you want to do.

            - He's not saying "I am over here and you are over there". He says "we". He's part of your ingroup; you're part of his.

            - He's restricting the size of the group. That makes not only him, but YOU, part of an elite culture.

            So let's go back to that group of CEOs.

            "You know, my friend Joe recently got written up in Fortune for his new business methodology, and it's just always been his life's dream to get his ideas out there in front of the business world like that. That's really why we do what we do - unlike the guys who only care about the bottom line, we care about the whole industry, and what really makes the business world better."

            Same four points. Do you really think it wouldn't work?
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Ron.
              CD,

              chill man. It's not that serious.


              It's all good.


              Ron


              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              No, you can't.

              Information marketing is backwards. We've all heard "sell the sizzle, not the steak" - but information marketing promises a steak and delivers the sizzle.

              "Hear that? That's steak!"

              Yeah, but you can't eat it. We're not really delivering what we sell. That's why so many people are unhappy with it. That's why refund rates are so high. That's why people call it a scam and bad-mouth us everywhere as liars and cheats.

              What makes John, Kevin, and Jeff different is they admit out of the gate that you have to work your arse off to get the steak. You don't just automatically get a steak when you hear the sizzle. There's work to be done.

              It's clear to me that you don't understand what Kevin's doing in that blog post, so I'll clarify it for you.

              - He's not bragging about how much money he has and what he does with it. He's showing you his friend having fun.

              - He's not telling you that you can or should go for a ride in a NASCAR vehicle. He's telling you that you can and should do the things you want to do.

              - He's not saying "I am over here and you are over there". He says "we". He's part of your ingroup; you're part of his.

              - He's restricting the size of the group. That makes not only him, but YOU, part of an elite culture.

              So let's go back to that group of CEOs.

              "You know, my friend Joe recently got written up in Fortune for his new business methodology, and it's just always been his life's dream to get his ideas out there in front of the business world like that. That's really why we do what we do - unlike the guys who only care about the bottom line, we care about the whole industry, and what really makes the business world better."

              Same four points. Do you really think it wouldn't work?
              Signature
              "Perseverance is a great element of success. If you only knock long enough and loud enough at the gate, you are sure to wake up somebody"
              -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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  • Profile picture of the author Wasabi Kurt
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    I simply do not have time to hear these guys boast about their lives, money, vacations, testimonials etc. There are just too many of you. This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.

    NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.
    Thank you Marty, you're so right! I think this whole trend in IM started back when audio interviews (both as free lead generators and ones for sale) became so popular and it hasn't stopped with video. There's almost nothing I hate more in IM than having to listen to an hour or two of rambling drivel in an audio only to discover that there was maybe one or at most two sentences worth of actual useful content in the entire MP3 (or video)!!! Of course the creators know this which is why they often don't provide written transcripts of the content, or if they do it's for an added fee. Worse yet is to discover that all this time has been wasted to find out that if you want any real content, you have to subscribe to their multi-hundred dollar a month membership site, where you have the chance to watch another 12 or 20 hours of video in order to extract a few pages of notes and content...

    The only exceptions to this I can think of are some of Frank Kern's lengthy videos. Not all of them, just some. He provides a very unique blend of entertainment, content and marketing, and if you're paying attention you can learn a ton of things about how to market effectively just by watching a video that he's created to try to sell you one of his products.
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by Ron. View Post

      Based on what's in your singnature, I can see why you'd think that. It seems you don't care about how it's sold, just sell it. Maybe the way I do things is not your cup of tea but I have way to much integrity to use methods like that. I would not feel comfortable doing that.

      If it works by all means go for it. It's just not for me. I want to do more than just "sell them something".
      He (Andrew) is selling products teaching people how to make money. His own success is proof of his ability to make money. There is nothing unethical or unsavory about showing proof of your ability.

      This is marketing 101 people - sell the results. And in the world of IM, the success of the IM'er is the biggest testimony as to the results of their methods (unless you're part of the crowd the actually believes the guru's have secrets and won't actually teach you what they do). Generaly, it's the mediocre IM'ers (ie, those without amazing success) who have issue with this. I'll leave the analysis of this to your own imaginations..

      BTW - it DOES work with ceo's.. I was a senior manager for an IT consulting company - we did not sell the nut's-and-bolts of the techology, we sold the results of implementing our solution. This is simply the psychology of sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author raymagnetic
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Andrew Fox just sent out an email with a link to a video while also mentioning his fantastic vacation on a luxury yacht.

    I am NOT saying he is fabricating, but the nature of the video is so entirely over-used, my natural instinct these days is to just think to myself, "I don't believe you."

    Let me tell you I did not finish the video because when the first half of the video shows me NOTHING about what he is offering, but instead rambles on endlessly about "limited time offer", "nobody will ever get this offer again", "this video will be removed forever", "someone makes $20,000 month", blah, blah, blah.. X - close window.

    Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?

    Andrew Fox may very well be the most honest person online, but I simply do not have time to hear these guys boast about their lives, money, vacations, testimonials etc. There are just too many of you. This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.

    NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.
    I'm in agreement with you. A lot of these guys make their millions selling a dream. I'm not mad at them for it or knocking their hustles, to each his own I say.

    I'm just not in a big hurry to take my wallet out and buy what most of these guys are selling.

    One thing I was always taught is that if something sounds too good to be true then it usually is. Just my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    Again, Andrew Fox is extemely successfull. As far as I can tell, nobody here is in any position to say he's doing things wrong - it's like me trying to say Tiger Woods is playing golf wrong. And the fact is this: Andrew's "swing" has put him into the big leagues, in a short time, at a young age.

    It doesn't matter what ANY of us think of him. What matters is if he can strike the right chord with enough people to generate sales, and he's figured out that what he "focus's on" seems to strike the right chord with enough people to make him millions from his efforts.
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    • Profile picture of the author LB
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      Again, Andrew Fox is extemely successfull. As far as I can tell, nobody here is in any position to say he's doing things wrong - it's like me trying to say Tiger Woods is playing golf wrong. And the fact is this: Andrew's "swing" has put him into the big leagues, in a short time, at a young age.

      It doesn't matter what ANY of us think of him. What matters is if he can strike the right chord with enough people to generate sales, and he's figured out that what he "focus's on" seems to strike the right chord with enough people to make him millions from his efforts.
      Well said.

      There is so much bitching on this forum about marketing...is this still a marketing forum?

      Ironically, if someone was pitching a money-making course from the street corner in tattered clothes people would laugh at their lack of credibility. So instead it's done from a yacht and people get offended.

      Makes ya think.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      It doesn't matter what ANY of us think of him.
      No point again, we really aren't talking about him, but moreso Guru's strategy to marketers who have some experience already. This blah blah candy doesn't work on me anymore, but I did say that it's probably a good thing to suck in newbs.

      All I am conveying is that Gurus have to place a value on MY time, because I already do make full time money at this. So if I am going to give any of them my time/money, for me at least, I want them to come right to the point.

      Jason you are somehow associating this with defending a marketer you seem to like and have probably purchased from. That's great, it's not personal but I was just wondering if others shared my point of view about unnecessary hyping.
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      • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        No point again, we really aren't talking about him, but moreso Guru's strategy to marketers who have some experience already. This blah blah candy doesn't work on me anymore, but I did say that it's probably a good thing to suck in newbs.

        All I am conveying is that Gurus have to place a value on MY time, because I already do make full time money at this. So if I am going to give any of them my time/money, for me at least, I want them to come right to the point.

        Jason you are somehow associating this with defending a marketer you seem to like and have probably purchased from. That's great, it's not personal but I was just wondering if others shared my point of view about unnecessary hyping.
        Marty, you're totally wrong, no disrespect intended. I have done several trials of selling helpful products which show people how to make money online. When I cut straight to the chase, cut out the "fat" and hype and showed exactly what my products could to for their bottom line, they bombed. The ONLY time when I totally dispensed with the fluff and pre-sell was with my last wso (closed, I'm not selling anything). The ONLY reason that was so successful is because I have a track record a mile long here. It would NOT work out in the "wild" so to speak. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, it's just my opinion, but backed up with real-world experience. Having said that, it really annoys me when I get emails that drone on about someone's latest vacation for several paragraphs before getting to the point, but we weren't talking about that, were we?

        TomG.
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        • Profile picture of the author Marty S
          Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

          Marty, you're totally wrong, no disrespect intended. I have done several trials of selling helpful products which show people how to make money online. When I cut straight to the chase, cut out the "fat" and hype and showed exactly what my products could to for their bottom line, they bombed. The ONLY time when I totally dispensed with the fluff and pre-sell was with my last wso (closed, I'm not selling anything).
          I don't understand what you think I am wrong about when I say it doesn't work on me. It's like a fluff video to me, because I am in a spot where I ONLY have time for GURUS who can give me some real valuable advice in rather short order.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve Diamond
            Hang in there, Marty. I'm with you.

            I'm not saying anything about the ethics or the efficacy of anyone's method of selling to what they believe to be their target audience. But I do say that this method won't sell anything to me.

            I don't want to know that I can get rich with your methods. I want to know something about how I can get rich with your methods. You know, is it about how to hire an army of ditch-diggers and find jobs for them? Is it about how to find and sign up sponsors for my next high altitude jump? (Two examples of things I wouldn't do, in case anyone was wondering.) Or is it about specific techniques for raising conversion rates on my existing sales pages? Surely you can tell me that much without giving away your secrets. If your sales material does nothing to enlighten me on that score, I'll hit delete or close the tab mighty fast.
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          • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
            Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

            I don't understand what you think I am wrong about when I say it doesn't work on me. It's like a fluff video to me, because I am in a spot where I ONLY have time for GURUS who can give me some real valuable advice in rather short order.
            Marty, I think you missed what I'm saying. I said that when I cut out the fluff and showed people exactly what my service/product would do for them (target: you, the experienced marketer looking for USEFUL stuff), it BOMBED because there was no visualization of the prize, the end goal, the reward and so went the motivation. That's why you see the "sizzle" as others have said. I hope I was more clear this time.

            TomG.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
          Is there such a thing in which you sign up to a ezine and the ezine actually provides value......no sales, no "sponsered ads", nothing involving a sales pitch. Just good old fashioned value?

          I think for my ezine I am going to do it that way. The only thing I'll put is my contact info at the bottom. That's it.
          Your proposed ezine 'business model' has one flaw, in my opinion, that is - how will you make money from it? Providing valuable targeted information is vital ... but ...

          Remember that you are spending time and money creating the ezine and the subscriber page(s). Then there are the advertising/promotion and autoresponder costs, not to mention the hosting.

          You should at least cover your costs, even if you don't intend to make money directly from your ezine. Of course, if you have something bigger in mind to earn money from your subscribers, then please ignore everything that I have posted.

          Regards,
          Jeff.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nahar
      I really enjoy this thread because I see great points on both sides.

      About a decade ago I was done with college and started looking for a job, but since I was a foreigner and without the "green card" nobody wanted to even interview me. So I got to watch quite a few of those multi-level marketing presentations. Every single one of them started with either a video showing how beautiful my mansion and Ferrari will be if I just pay a few hundred dollars today and join the scheme or a long testimonial which would always list the presenter's cars and vacation spots which were made possible by the company he/she was promoting.

      I started thinking about joining one of those pyramids but then I went to another presentation and saw the same guy talking about this amazing selling internet connection scheme who just a few months earlier shared similar stories about the millions he had made selling some magic water filters to his grandmothers and aunts.

      Needless to say: this kind of marketing does not appeal to me at all...

      BUT...

      I must agree with jasonl70 who among other smart things said:

      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      It doesn't matter what ANY of us think of him. What matters is if he can strike the right chord with enough people to generate sales, and he's figured out that what he "focus's on" seems to strike the right chord with enough people to make him millions from his efforts.
      It's true - even though it might annoy some of us, if it isn't evil and works well - there is no point arguing that the guy is doing it wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Nahar,

        I started thinking about joining one of those pyramids
        Needless to say: this kind of marketing does not appeal to me at all...
        :confused:
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        • Profile picture of the author Nahar
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Nahar,





          :confused:
          This is what happened: The logic behind multi-level marketing scheme did make sense to me, but once I realized that actors were hired to lie about their life changing experiences and how joining the scheme resulted in them making millions and being able to spend all their time with their families, etc. - every time I hear someone bragging about his Ferrari, etc. I feel like I am being lied to.

          But - I am also saying that if you do have a Ferrari and a big mansion and you know that displaying your wealth will appeal to the people you are targeting - you should definitely do it. That's all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron.
    ^No, peolple just like to express themselves. You do it, I do it, we all do it. You may not have a POV on this subject but I am sure you've racked up over 2000 posts talking about something.

    There's no harm in asking a question. Take it at face value. Either answer or don't.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Adamson
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas
    That's the point. They are targetting newbies. The first info product I bought as a newbie was such hype and rubbish I would not spend 5 seconds reading the sales letter today. But how many people turn 18 every year? How many fresh aspiring IMers read their first sales letter every year? There are a lot of them, and they seem to be easy targets because these guys are lining their pockets and the phenomenon does not look like it will abate any time soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    When marketers show thier ferrari's, mansions, etc, they are targeting others who apsire to the same things they have attained. This is a valid market.

    Some people want the life of leisure that Frank Kern goes out of his way to display, others want big houses and cool cars, and yet others can't fathom either and would be happy making a few extra grand a month. All are legitmate markets, and you can't be all things to all people.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      When marketers show thier ferrari's, mansions, etc, they are targeting others who apsire to the same things they have attained. This is a valid market.

      Some people want the life of leisure that Frank Kern goes out of his way to display, others want big houses and cool cars, and yet others can't fathom either and would be happy making a few extra grand a month. All are legitmate markets, and you can't be all things to all people.
      Marketing 101, thanks.

      Back to the original question:

      Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?
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      • Profile picture of the author tschlotter
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        Marketing 101, thanks.

        Back to the original question:

        Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?
        I got the same email from Andrew (or at least the same link).

        It came to his CB Quantum Insiders list (mine did anyway) so it was obvious what product was being promoted so if one wasn't interested in that product - why bother watching the video?

        I watched it anyway even though I'm familiar with the product simply because it's inspiring to me to see what real life successful marketers have achieved. It gives me hope that someday I too will get it right and maybe IM will do more than just pay my monthly bills. Frank Kern's videos are my all time favorites - especially when he shows off his guitars!

        I'm sure Andrew's intent wasn't to motivate frustrated marketers, or Frank Kern's either for that matter, but sometimes their content give me the push I need to keep plugging away!

        Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author Allen Lewis
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      When marketers show thier ferrari's, mansions, etc, they are targeting others who apsire to the same things they have attained. This is a valid market.

      Some people want the life of leisure that Frank Kern goes out of his way to display, others want big houses and cool cars, and yet others can't fathom either and would be happy making a few extra grand a month. All are legitmate markets, and you can't be all things to all people.
      Probably the most sensible post in this thread.

      Maybe I'm generalizing, but the way I see it, there are two kinds of Internet marketers:

      1. The writers/value creators who are doing marketing not just for the money or to win, they actually enjoy creating content. The 'selling' part doesn't really turn them on. What they enjoy most is creating. These guys are usually happy with making just enough.

      2. The profiteers who play the game to win, to sell more than the next person. Sometimes it is not just about the money. These guys want to win, they want the big bank account and the big house.

      It is very hard to be appealing to either group, without turning the other off.

      The writers/value creators may win more fans, but they might not 'win', they might not make more, because they are not in the game to win. They are always satisfied with their lot.

      The profiteers, on the other hand, are never satisfied. $20,000 per month is not enough. The question becomes not whether they have enough money, they're in it for the thrill, to win.

      Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    To me the Ferraris yachts and mansions scream scam.

    It's late night infomercial world for the get rich with no work crowd.

    Personally I would rather watch a ShamWow, or the Pocket Fisherman, or the Showtime Rotisserie.

    These are showing what you can do with the product,.

    The Ferrari & the Mansion crowd does nothing for me to build the Know, Like, Trust quotient.

    But I also understand that some people like hype, and blowhard slimy high pressure sales folk.

    Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?
    Yes very doubtful, the ability to achieve success does not automatically translate to being able to convey your knowledge of how you became successful.

    Mark Riddle
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Marty,

      Your question -

      Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?
      I don't really understand the last bit, but regardless -

      Quite early on, I gained enough experience to be able to judge who might provide something that was beneficial to me, and who might do my head in. So I avoid the latter. If I don't judge it correctly, I unsubscribe.

      But you seem to want to suggest to these people that they change their approach to suit you -

      NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.
      Why would you? Just unsubscribe. As mentioned above, you are not in their target demographic.

      If you don't like the noise, press mute.

      This topic comes up over and over and I just don't get it.

      If you have advanced enough to a level where the hype and BS annoys you (which is a natural progression) then surely you have also advanced to a level where if necessary, you will happily continue with your business while NOT being subscribed to ANY email lists, not being taught by others, not buying educational products, not having your hand held etc...

      You seem to suggest that you have advanced to that level here -

      This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.
      So why complain? Whatever they can teach/sell you, you don't need it - they sell newbie products and teach newbie stuff - so why the angst?

      Hi Ron,

      Is there such a thing in which you sign up to a ezine and the ezine actually provides value......no sales, no "sponsered ads", nothing involving a sales pitch. Just good old fashioned value?
      As mentioned above - Paul Myers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marty S
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Marty,

        I don't really understand
        I agree.

        Really do you think I don't know how to unsubscribe? Priceless. :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Marty,
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by ExRat
          Hi Marty,

          I don't really understand
          I agree.

          Really do you think I don't know how to unsubscribe? Priceless. :-)
          In that case (there was a little more to my reply) - the part I didn't understand was this undecipherable sentence -

          and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?
          ...perhaps you'd like to explain what you hoped to achieve with this thread?
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        But you seem to want to suggest to these people that they change their approach to suit you -

        Why would you? Just unsubscribe. As mentioned above, you are not in their target demographic.

        If you don't like the noise, press mute.

        This topic comes up over and over and I just don't get it.
        Funny thing is mate...you don't take your own advice. You obviously don't share the OP's opinion and are fed up with threads like this. That's cool. So just move on. Why bother even commenting? And commenting. And commenting. What does it achieve? "If you don't like the noise, press mute".
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

          Funny thing is mate...you don't take your own advice. You obviously don't share the OP's opinion and are fed up with threads like this. That's cool. So just move on. Why bother even commenting? And commenting. And commenting. What does it achieve? "If you don't like the noise, press mute".
          He's a masochist.

          He actually thinks it's worth spending time making his point again and again in threads like this to try and help people.

          I keep telling him to change his business model, sell scammy products to newbies and buy a yacht but he just doesn't want to be successful.

          The guy is incorrigible.

          Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Wow, I just got to the end of this thread.

    I was going to comment then I saw people starting to nit-pick each other and thought no, then I thought sod it


    Marty - I think I'm with you on your general perspective on these marketing launches and promos.

    I have no interest in someone telling me about their cars etc.. I just care about what are they selling and is it something that will save me time or money - or make me more money.

    The only other important factor is who they are and what I think of them.

    If I don't know them - I don't care what they say.

    If I do know them - I don't care what they say (but this time I'll buy)


    With someone like Andrew Fox, I've bought some stuff from him over the years and made money from it, so I'd open his email - but if I started watching a video and it was going on about the lifestyle stuff - I'd be skipping forward and trying to get the bit where it says what it is and how much they want for it.

    So, while I understand the reason for putting the 'sizzle' there - I'm not its target audience so it just irritates me.

    But some people want it so fair play to them.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author rojo
    Yes it sucks, It totally shows the lack of real quality wen all that hard sales stuff is used. Time sensitive/scarcity make sense in some products and I actually purchase early wen software I want is being made available for a limited number of users (this is of course a sales tactic but remains good both for the seller and for the purchaser on many cases).
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  • Profile picture of the author hangtimenino
    I think each has his own idea of how to attract clients, and believe it or not, there are people who actually get attracted to these kinds of video that you are talking about.
    It really depends on what works for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    I don't get his emails in the first place - problem solved.

    If you need to ask why they send these look up 'lizard brain' - it works.
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  • Profile picture of the author KarenKramer
    Marty,

    It's so nice to know that you can always Unsubscribe to a list or X out of a video you don't like.

    It's also nice that those who do like Andrew's Videos are able to continue buying and providing Andrew with a nice comfortable income.
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  • Profile picture of the author pur113810
    Video is always effective as long as its on bulls eye. There is a big difference in the way someone uses media. But something requires more than potential when you are trying hook somebody. That's what I think. So, if you are not worth it don't waste it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyrus Antas
    Some stuff works when you're selling to people that don't know you. But will it work over the long term if your hard-sell, hype based strategies damages your brand? If I search for you on the Internet and I see people calling you a "scammer" am I more likely to buy? I doubt it.

    Some people base their entire businesses on the first sale and high customer churn. They optimize everything for that first sale. Rarely do they ever get sales from repeat customers. At first look, their business "works", after all, they're making money. But much of the stuff that works in the short-term will inevitably fail over the long-term if there are no strong foundations to sustain these tactics.

    Tyrus
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  • Profile picture of the author JeffLam
    Marty, I'm with you.

    So many times I've opened my inbox to see all the 'Big Time' marketers marketing about the similar product with the similar hype - limited stocks/slots, time running out, etc etc.

    And all too many has their lives' been so luxurious!

    But if you think in their shoes a little - isn't that good marketing? The scarcity definately eats up the newbies and if its making money who are we to say anything?

    As for tackling Gurus like yourself, well, I'm guessing losing out on 1 customer like you won't make a difference to him as he gobbles up the 'Fast Cash' newbies..
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    Andrew Fox is very clearly -- CLEARLY -- doing it completely WRONG. He's also doing it exactly and precisely right.

    Not only that, but Fox is completely MISSING THE MARK. And to top it off, he's absolutely nailing it and firing his rounds directly into the mark with laser precision.

    Andrew Fox's marketing shows that he hasn't got a clue. And I've got to truly say that his marketing shows that he's truly wise and absolutely mastered his craft.

    These are the facts: Fox's approach to marketing totally sucks. And Fox's approach to marketing is terrific.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Andrew's got all that stuff--really. I know it's a lot of hype, and yes--that can turn people off. However, he's a very big-time affiliate marketer and legit product vendor in his own right. I bought his Dominating Clickbank program about a year or so ago and it was beyond excellent.

    However, I understand what you mean. The problem is that a lot of guys without Andrew's credentials do a lot of hype stuff like that as well. My Best--Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek_Thomas
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Andrew Fox just sent out an email with a link to a video while also mentioning his fantastic vacation on a luxury yacht.

    I am NOT saying he is fabricating, but the nature of the video is so entirely over-used, my natural instinct these days is to just think to myself, "I don't believe you."

    Let me tell you I did not finish the video because when the first half of the video shows me NOTHING about what he is offering, but instead rambles on endlessly about "limited time offer", "nobody will ever get this offer again", "this video will be removed forever", "someone makes $20,000 month", blah, blah, blah.. X - close window.

    Is it just me or do you guys get doubtful about a marketer when all they can say is limited, urgent, important.. and show NOTHING of why we are actually watching?

    Andrew Fox may very well be the most honest person online, but I simply do not have time to hear these guys boast about their lives, money, vacations, testimonials etc. There are just too many of you. This may be a good strategy for hooking up newbies, but I have seen this all too often, with nothing to show for it except wasted time on re-rendered ideas.

    NOTE to Gurus: if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds. I am bright enough to see the potential in an idea or concept and if you can respect my time and intelligence, I am MUCH more likely to get involved with your list/product.


    Recently I unsubscribed from ALL the guru's lists in order to help me get focused. I was suffering from information overload. One of the best moves I've ever made.

    Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author Irene Houston
    Sorry to be a killjoy but all this 'here's my Ferrari, here's me on vacation in the Caribbean, here's my big house, etc, etc' type of old fashioned marketing may work for a lot of young impressionable guys (I would imagine they are Andrew Fox's ideal clients) but I'm afraid most females look at it and just get bored with all the bragging.

    Maybe something to do with testosterone - who knows?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by Irene Houston View Post

      Sorry to be a killjoy but all this 'here's my Ferrari, here's me on vacation in the Caribbean, here's my big house, etc, etc' type of old fashioned marketing may work for a lot of young impressionable guys (I would imagine they are Andrew Fox's ideal clients) but I'm afraid most females look at it and just get bored with all the bragging.
      Irene, are you telling me females are bored with stuff like this?

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      • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
        lol.. the infamous tommy vu

        Anyways,
        Showing of your ferrari is no different then showing off your surf boards, or saying how much time you now have to spend with your kids, etc.. it's simply identifying a market, and finding out what they strive for.

        it's a shame that so many so-called marketers just don't seem to get it.. too many people around here think that THEY represent the ideal target market (or the ONLY market) for the IM niche, and get all bent out of shape when other marketers out there don't share in their self-centered views. So they come here on the forum and cry about long copy, cry about benefits based marketing, cry about the emails they get, cry about 'proof of earnings' if it dares show's anything beyond mediocre results, cry if a marketer dares say it DOESN'T take long long hours and many months to start making money (sorry - I was making money within 12 hours). cry cry cry whine whine whine blah blah blah


        Originally Posted by Tyrus Antas View Post

        Some stuff works when you're selling to people that don't know you. But will it work over the long term if your hard-sell, hype based strategies damages your brand? If I search for you on the Internet and I see people calling you a "scammer" am I more likely to buy? I doubt it.

        Some people base their entire businesses on the first sale and high customer churn. They optimize everything for that first sale. Rarely do they ever get sales from repeat customers. At first look, their business "works", after all, they're making money. But much of the stuff that works in the short-term will inevitably fail over the long-term if there are no strong foundations to sustain these tactics.

        Tyrus
        lol.. you make these assumptions about the guy based on him daring to show how successfull he is? He made his mark as an affiliate who markets to his OWN list... and has for several years.

        But let's pretend for a minute that he rely'd on the 'passing parade'. That is still a perfectly valid business model, as every day there are new people wanting to make money online, and marketing to them is not inherently unsavory, or anything to take an arrogant attitude towards.


        oh, by the way - did anyone catch the new Prius commercials?? man, those guys are totally getting it wrong.. I mean, where's the performance, the excitement, the horsepower.. oh, that's right - I AM NOT THE ONLY PROFITABLE TARGET MARKET OUT THERE

        lol - funny choice I used there, since toyota actually loses money on every prius
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
          Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

          lol - funny choice I used there, since toyota actually loses money on every prius
          Jason: Sorry, I just don't believe you. According to reports, Toyota makes around $3k per Prius...

          Honda, Toyota make $3,100 profit on each hybrid sold
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        • Profile picture of the author Marty S
          Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

          it's a shame that so many so-called marketers just don't seem to get it.. too many people around here think that THEY represent the ideal target market (or the ONLY market) for the IM niche, and get all bent out of shape when other marketers out there don't share in their self-centered views. So they come here on the forum and cry about long copy, cry about benefits based marketing, cry about the emails they get, cry about 'proof of earnings' if it dares show's anything beyond mediocre results, cry if a marketer dares say it DOESN'T take long long hours and many months to start making money (sorry - I was making money within 12 hours). cry cry cry whine whine whine blah blah blah
          I don't know why you would be attacking fellow warriors like this. Its a simple discussion of opinions and your response here ranks of some self given superiority. I am not sure what you mean by crying, but it sure reads like that's what you are doing. It's rather tough to respect someone's opinion with this kind of teen-aged tongue-lashing.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

          it's a shame that so many so-called marketers just don't seem to get it.. too many people around here think that THEY represent the ideal target market (or the ONLY market) for the IM niche, and get all bent out of shape when other marketers out there don't share in their self-centered views. So they come here on the forum and cry about long copy, cry about benefits based marketing, cry about the emails they get, cry about 'proof of earnings' if it dares show's anything beyond mediocre results, cry if a marketer dares say it DOESN'T take long long hours and many months to start making money (sorry - I was making money within 12 hours). cry cry cry whine whine whine blah blah blah
          I would have thought any of us can express an opinion here. Whether you think it "whiny" or not. It is after all a forum - "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion". There's not one of us here who knows it all. So carry on. Without the vitriol and personal bashing that some of you with long post counts seem to think you're somehow entitled to.
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  • Profile picture of the author .
    I wonder why there so many crappy sales pages with the Yatch thing. Don't you know you can rent a Yatch and invite all your mates to cruise Sydney for less than $500 ?
    Then you take photos of "happy people laughing" and put it your lame sales page.

    What type of sales pages work for me: when people tell me, discover how I can afford to spend more time with my kids, taking them to the park, instead of working in a boring office from 9 to 5.
    Be real. Be honest. don't try to sell us the idea of your yatch.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by rankinghero View Post

      I wonder why there so many crappy sales pages with the Yatch thing. Don't you know you can rent a Yatch and invite all your mates to cruise Sydney for less than $500 ? Then you take photos of "happy people laughing" and put it your lame sales page.
      Faking success in this manner is almost as easy as faking Clickbank sales proof. Some are willing to do it, some are not. Some legitimately own luxury items like high-end cars, boats, and homes. Some choose to use those in their sales pitches (quite effectively, I would add) while others do not.

      For every pitch there is a target. For every target, a pitch.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by rankinghero View Post

      Don't you know you can rent a Yatch and invite all your mates to cruise Sydney for less than $500 ?
      I've always planned to someday take a picture of me with my expensive rented car in front of a massive house, and then lead off a sales page with the outright admission that I rented the car and parked it in front of that house just to take the picture.

      Then I can move on to say that the style-over-substance crowd has taken over everything and credibility is just in the toilet, but if a system works, it works.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I've always planned to someday take a picture of me with my expensive rented car in front of a massive house, and then lead off a sales page with the outright admission that I rented the car and parked it in front of that house just to take the picture.

        Then I can move on to say that the style-over-substance crowd has taken over everything and credibility is just in the toilet, but if a system works, it works.
        I'm thinking of doing one where I take a picture in front of my carboard box & bluetarp house, showing off my new (well 3 wheels at least) shopping cart.
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        • Profile picture of the author MR. Bliss
          Kevin,
          I am a member of your list.
          I am glad someome on this post has a sense of humor.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Crofford
    I do the exact same thing. I am also bad about seeing a minisite/sales letter type site and closing the tab immediately. There is no need to overhype your product if it is good.
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    • Profile picture of the author raiko
      "There is no need to overhype your product if it is good."

      Ahhh, therein lies the truth for me. A really good movie doesn't need any hype riddled trailers run on tv every 15 minutes. It will be very successful through minimal advertising and massive word of mouth. Unfortunately most "products" suck- or are at least not anywhere near as valuable as their creator feels they are.

      I have ambivalent feelings regarding hype. It's nice that it works for the marketers but it's also sad that it works for the marketers. I would also love to see audits done to see how many customers achieved any amount of success with the product - whatever it may be.
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  • Profile picture of the author torozo
    If you feel the "Gurus" was failed to give you benefit information and you don't believe with their honesty. Don't waste your time again to read their email.. Just get out from "their" mail list immediately.
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    For me, well, I don't buy but a few things any more. Something tells me that the economic downturn is hurting the IM business as well, but much of the blame has to do with what Marty is legitimately griping about if he is still buying IM products.

    I think that the repeat buyers are starting to disappear. So, the sellers are depending on more on new blood who have not had exposure to the same old, same old marketing ploys.

    Oh well. Off to Tweet about things I don't know about. But I will agree that there are a kajillion "social network experts" on Twitter now.
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  • Profile picture of the author kakarotoni
    Most Gurus and marketers do this ALOT, they say they will tell you how to make thousands of dollars in a short amount of time, and when they throw a email or a sales pitch to you. Its all useless info just hyping up to a sales pitch.

    Whenever someone I subscribe to ends up sending me nothing but junk, I just click the unsubscribe button.

    KEY TO SUCCESS: Give a little to get a little. It works people.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Metronicity,

      Funny thing is mate...you don't take your own advice.
      Interesting. But incorrect.

      You obviously don't share the OP's opinion and are fed up with threads like this
      Aha. The false assumption. Perhaps you'd like to quote me the part that made you assume that I was fed up with threads like this? Because if you can't, your whole premise is based on an incorrect assumption.

      That's cool. So just move on. Why bother even commenting? And commenting. And commenting. What does it achieve? "If you don't like the noise, press mute".
      Exactly as I thought. You're trying so hard to make me eat my own words, you're willing to use that false assumption to get to your goal.

      Consider this - it's everyone else who 'sounds as if' (note the lack of assumption) they are fed up. I'm just trying to help them. Sure my solution is obvious - it's right in front of their face, yet they don't seem to see it.

      And WHY would I offer such advice?

      Because I have direct experience of the exact subject we are talking about. Because I was in the same position as many of the posters here, and I DID follow my own advice.

      It would be pretty difficult to find them I guess, but if you were to look through my older posts here, you would see proof that I have said the same thing for a long time - it is a fallacy that you can learn good marketing techniques by studying emails from most IM 'experts'.

      It is not healthy to subject yourself to such aggressive pitching every time you open your inbox if you are not already wildly successful. It is 99% likely to cause distractions.

      I only ever suggest that people here sign up to ONE email list, and everyone knows who's list that is because it's a class (or ten) above all of the rest and it's not a pitch-fest - the guy isn't desperate.

      And I'm only subscribed to one other list myself. So my inbox only gets two subscriptions to IM newsletters. I'm a proponent of the 'clean inbox.'

      So there's your answer Metronicity. Rather than being a hypocrite, as you would like to prove, I'm doing something much less sinister - (gasp) - trying to help people by offering advice based on my own experiences.
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      • Profile picture of the author kanus
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Metronicity,



        Interesting. But incorrect.



        Aha. The false assumption. Perhaps you'd like to quote me the part that made you assume that I was fed up with threads like this? Because if you can't, your whole premise is based on an incorrect assumption.



        Exactly as I thought. You're trying so hard to make me eat my own words, you're willing to use that false assumption to get to your goal.

        Consider this - it's everyone else who 'sounds as if' (note the lack of assumption) they are fed up. I'm just trying to help them. Sure my solution is obvious - it's right in front of their face, yet they don't seem to see it.

        And WHY would I offer such advice?

        Because I have direct experience of the exact subject we are talking about. Because I was in the same position as many of the posters here, and I DID follow my own advice.

        It would be pretty difficult to find them I guess, but if you were to look through my older posts here, you would see proof that I have said the same thing for a long time - it is a fallacy that you can learn good marketing techniques by studying emails from most IM 'experts'.

        It is not healthy to subject yourself to such aggressive pitching every time you open your inbox if you are not already wildly successful. It is 99% likely to cause distractions.

        I only ever suggest that people here sign up to ONE email list, and everyone knows who's list that is because it's a class (or ten) above all of the rest and it's not a pitch-fest - the guy isn't desperate.

        And I'm only subscribed to one other list myself. So my inbox only gets two subscriptions to IM newsletters. I'm a proponent of the 'clean inbox.'

        So there's your answer Metronicity. Rather than being a hypocrite, as you would like to prove, I'm doing something much less sinister - (gasp) - trying to help people by offering advice based on my own experiences.
        Everywhere I go, this guy is trolling.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Kanus,

          Everywhere I go, this guy is trolling.
          Everywhere you go?

          Well if you go here,to my profile page -




          ....and look through my posts, then you're more than likely going to stumble across my posts. A great way of avoiding my posts is to make sure not to go to my profile page and look through my posts.

          Of course, you wouldn't be at all biased in your opinion due to a little discussion we had here, would you?

          Start At Post #109 Where Kanus Appears On The Thread

          Unusually for a troll such as I, I decided not to respond to your attempted continuation of the discussion. Very un-troll-like of me, apologies if I let the side down.

          But you ended with -

          I didn't realize I had to be so conscious of every word I wrote here. Next time I just wont add my comment.
          What percentage of the words that you speak are you normally conscious of? If you can give us a rough percentage, we can try to guess which ones to ignore and attempt to make sense of what's left. I would hazard a guess that the last sentence of the above quote was posted while unconscious?

          Also, you forgot to add -

          'Instead I will follow ExRat around, quoting him and calling him names, thus proving what a troll he is.'

          Thanks for the compliment Mr. Pot.

          Regards,

          Mr. Black Kettle.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author kanus
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Kanus,

            Everywhere you go?

            Well if you go here,to my profile page -




            ....and look through my posts, then you're more than likely going to stumble across my posts. A great way of avoiding my posts is to make sure not to go to my profile page and look through my posts.

            Of course, you wouldn't be at all biased in your opinion due to a little discussion we had here, would you?

            Start At Post #109 Where Kanus Appears On The Thread

            Unusually for a troll such as I, I decided not to respond to your attempted continuation of the discussion. Very un-troll-like of me, apologies if I let the side down.

            But you ended with -

            What percentage of the words that you speak are you normally conscious of? If you can give us a rough percentage, we can try to guess which ones to ignore and attempt to make sense of what's left. I would hazard a guess that the last sentence of the above quote was posted while unconscious?

            Also, you forgot to add -

            'Instead I will follow ExRat around, quoting him and calling him names, thus proving what a troll he is.'

            Thanks for the compliment Mr. Pot.

            Regards,

            Mr. Black Kettle.
            Lol, the funny thing is I went to your profile from this post. Good effort though on the assumption. I had to see what else you were posting. How much time did you put into that comment btw?
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          • Profile picture of the author Susanrh
            Ex-Rat: Bullseye!!


            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Kanus,



            What percentage of the words that you speak are you normally conscious of? If you can give us a rough percentage, we can try to guess which ones to ignore and attempt to make sense of what's left. I would hazard a guess that the last sentence of the above quote was posted while unconscious?


            Regards,

            Mr. Black Kettle.
            A barb so sharp the target doesn't realise it has been hit!

            Originally Posted by kanus View Post

            Lol, the funny thing is I went to your profile from this post. Good effort though on the assumption. I had to see what else you were posting. How much time did you put into that comment btw?
            :rolleyes: Whatever next, thoughtful posts!
            When it's so much easier to quote someone else's!
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Ahhhh - such a quick journey.

              Join...complain....attempt sarcasm...attempt wit...whine....banned.

              Next?
              Signature
              Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

              I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
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            • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
              Originally Posted by rankinghero View Post

              I wonder why there so many crappy sales pages with the Yatch thing. Don't you know you can rent a Yatch and invite all your mates to cruise Sydney for less than $500 ?
              Then you take photos of "happy people laughing" and put it your lame sales page.

              What type of sales pages work for me: when people tell me, discover how I can afford to spend more time with my kids, taking them to the park, instead of working in a boring office from 9 to 5.
              Be real. Be honest. don't try to sell us the idea of your yatch.
              ahh - so YOUR "ideal outcome", the goal you strive for, is the only valid one to market too? even if it may perhaps be less passionate about buying?

              I agree with the other part about the yacht though - they can be rented for a weekend. However, Andrew's somewhat famous for his yacht, having flown a lot of guru's to it first class for recorded "round table" type dicussions, etc.

              Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

              Jason: Sorry, I just don't believe you. According to reports, Toyota makes around $3k per Prius...

              Honda, Toyota make $3,100 profit on each hybrid sold
              Well, I do a lot of work in the auto industry (and my family owns dealerships), and the prius 'loss' is widely reported in less biased industry publications.

              Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

              I would have thought any of us can express an opinion here. Whether you think it "whiny" or not. It is after all a forum - "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion". There's not one of us here who knows it all. So carry on. Without the vitriol and personal bashing that some of you with long post counts seem to think you're somehow entitled to.
              lol - my style of posts have not changed based on my post count. As someone who came to IM with some direct response marketing background, it amazes me how a lot of people who consider themselves marketers fall into what I consider 'traps'.

              And this is a pretty basic thing to 'not get'.

              People aspiring to a lavish lifestyle are a valid market, and it's a perfectly valid approach for a successful marketer to show his own 'success' when he's putting himeself out there as the result of his approach.

              It is fundementaly no different then my 'droppping hints' to my readers about how much free time I have to be with my son (in this case, I've targeted people who's desired outcome is to be able to spend more time with their family).

              Originally Posted by billyboy View Post

              you could easily say the same about drug dealers then...
              I guess you could if you are referring to someone identifying and selling to a hungry crowd. But that's a pretty ludicrous comparison.

              I got news for some folks... it only takes a few extra grand a month for the avarage middle class person to upgrade to a much larger house and high-line auto, if that's what they want (and not everyone out there has 'wealth issues'). I could lease a new mercedes for less then the loan payment I was paying on my PT Cruiser! My loan payment on a 1 year old Jaguar XJ8 was only $10 more then the one on the PT. And for $700 more a month, I could lease a Lamborghini or Bentley. $10/mo more for a Jag, $700/mo more for an exotic. $1500 more a month would get me a really nice home in the country club. This isn't pipe dream money - it's a few grand more a month, which only took me a few months to build up to.

              Heck - my best friend is still enlisted in the USAF. He has a bmw 5 series, a vette, a camaro, a toyota truck, a gto, a suby wrx, and a lotus.. again, it only took a few extra grand a month for him to signficantly upgrade his lifestyle over the years (in this case, he's a car nut!). When I was in the Air Force, as a Jr enlisted guy (E4) I had 4 motorcycles and a Porsche 911 turbo cabriolet - financed by a part time job on the side as bartender at the enlisted club.

              It is not that terribly difficult to make enough extra money to get these things if you already live within your means. And it's not selling a pipe dream if it's the angle to your marketing - it's simply targeting a different, but legitimate, crowd.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Coverdale
          Originally Posted by kanus View Post

          Everywhere I go, this guy is trolling.
          I have been reading this thread having a little laugh along the way and then sprayed my keyboard with coffee when I read this.

          Man, you really have no idea and you owe me a new keyboard.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    dude... you are on such a roll these days... you need to produce a new product called "How to not be a forum dumbass"...
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    • Profile picture of the author kanus
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      dude... you are on such a roll these days... you need to produce a new product called "How to not be a forum dumbass"...
      I find it more funny people encourage him.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by kanus View Post

        I find it more funny people encourage him.
        Yes, I do encourage him.

        In fact, if he ever produces a comedy DVD, I will buy the first copy.

        Intertwined in that dry sense of humor is a lot of rational thought process.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
    Right Or Wrong, it works and he's made a lot of money.

    Like they say, "Show me the money".

    Why do you think all of the stupid Amway/MLM scam meetings always begin with the videos of the homes, cars, houses, cash etc.

    It works.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    if you send me a video, please just skip the hype BS, and tell me what you can do for me in the first 30 seconds.

    This is actually very good advice.

    One of the things many marketers miss when they create a sales message is delivering very specific engaging information to draw in their ideal prospects.

    Pitching too much without using specific information can definitely kill sales.

    Also one key question you have to remember that prospects ask is "sure it works for you but can it work for me?"

    Constantly talking about how much money you're making without talking about how much a variety of people you've taught can also reduce sales.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith_Purkiss
    I don't watch any of those type of videos anymore.
    I opted out of most of the lists I'm no to focus on building my business.**
    I think that's the best plan, being on lists is a distraction.

    **P.S. It was Kevin told me to do that
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Coverdale
      Originally Posted by Keith_Purkiss View Post

      I don't watch any of those type of videos anymore.
      I opted out of most of the lists I'm no to focus on building my business.**
      I think that's the best plan, being on lists is a distraction.

      **P.S. It was Kevin told me to do that
      I started a thread some time last year stating that I was unsubscribing from my lists to concentrate on my business and I recieved a bit of stick from some senior warriors.

      I realised they were trying to tell me to use the lists as a learning tool.

      Create a free e-mail address and just use that one to sign up to the lists. Then take note of what the gurus are promoting and how they are promoting it. You can learn a lot from their e-mail campaigns.
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  • Profile picture of the author MR. Bliss
    I recieved a free download of testemonial templates
    complete with comments and pictures of god knows who.
    I find this unethical and I laugh when I see these on other
    adverts. I am sure I will see the same sports car and other
    Luxury items on another sales page, LOL

    They might fool the newbies but experienced marketers also
    buy product.
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  • Profile picture of the author BurgerBoy
    So - Andrew Fox - is satisfied with ONLY having Yachts, Mansions, and fast cars.

    That's nothing. Buy my e-book and you can have a lot more than those little inexpense toys. Buy My Stupid Ebook, Overly SEO d Title, Keywords Crammed like Make Money Online Make Money Online Make Money Online
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Diamond
      I was wondering when someone would get to "Buy My Stupid Ebook" on this thread. That's my all-time favorite parody site. Always good for a few guffaws.

      Steve
      Signature
      Mindfulness training & coaching online
      Reduce stress | Stay focused | Keep positive and balanced
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Shoot I guess I shouldn't say I would trade my paddle boat in on a yacht

    Last time I checked that is why I got into im .. I like nice stuff ..... Dang me ... dang me ... somebody ought to hang me
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  • Profile picture of the author IMBT
    After you've been in the internet marketing world for a while your perception of marketing gets jaded. Comes with the territory.

    But there is a huge population out there that isn't as immune to the marketing methods
    that's why it does successfully work...
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