WSOs: Dangerous New Developement That LOSES SALES...

32 replies
They now allow you to link to your affiliate sign up page like they did in the good old days. BUT.... while many celebrate, is this really a good thing?

I've been "doing IM" for almost 15 years which means..... if a method exists. I've likely tested it at one time or another.

This includes inviting people to join your affiliate page from your sales page (linking to affiliate sign up or JV page).

Put another way, that is to advertise your affiliate program within your sales letter, like perhaps touting the “commish” as a bonus or whatever.

More than likely though, an affiliate program offer (to join the affiliate program and be able to promote the product) is placed at the BOTTOM of the sales page – the same sales page that promotes the product itself.

Though getting affiliates IS a good idea..... doing it this way is NOT a good idea.

Why?

Because remember the golden rule about sales pages - they’re only indented to do ONE thing! That is, sell the PRODUCT – Not the affiliate program.

So… sell your product.

Having an affiliate offer on your sales page is a bad idea for two main reasons…

REASON 1:. Sales Leakage

You ARE losing sales as your affiliate offer (and the “opportunity” it creates) detract from your product offer.

There is that traffic that is seeking “opportunity” more than solutions to problems. When they ordinarily would have purchased your product, they, instead join your affiliate program and move on to the next “shiny object”.

Sale lost.

This, because of the reasons above, also hurts your existing affiliates.

REASON 2: Lose Sales AND Lose Your PAYPAL (Yikes!)

It could get you into trouble with your payment processor.

It’s no secret that payment processors do NOT like “biz-opp” type stuff and they REALLY hate “self replicating” business models.

A “self replicating” business model is a business model where the main function is to sell somebody a product, then teach them to make money by selling that same product and teaching others to sell it to make money…. and down the chain it goes.

Processors will shut down offers like these because they hate ‘em.

I hate them too.

Even IF your product IS NOT a self-replicating business model type of product (if it is, shame on you), having your affiliate ad on your sales page makes it APPEAR as such.

If your processor notices it, they won’t take the time to investigate it. They’ll just shut you down and hold your money for 180 days.

A lot of my colleagues have had this happen to them as of late – especially if they’ve used PayPal.

So, go remove that affiliate ad from your sales page.

The disadvantages of having it there far outweigh the advantages.

There’s plenty of other ways to recruit good affiliates.
#dangerious #developemend #loses #sales #wsos
  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    So many people cant understand that a sales page is ONLY to sell a product and a squeeze page is ONLY to capture an email.
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  • Profile picture of the author MrTwoFister
    and and affiliate page is to attract affiliates..
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Yep, this is exactly why the affiliate programs were banned in the first place. Paypal has a very negative view on offers where the opportunity to resell that offer is being listed on the salespage, basically as part of the opportunity being sold. They look at setups like that as borderline pyramid schemes and people lost accounts over this very thing.

    But alas, the new owners came in and without asking why this ban was there in the first place, lifted the ban and have once again allowed people to advertise the affiliate opportunity as part of the offer being sold.

    An example of trying to put profits over common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    Do people really think they're going to attract decent affiliates by placing the affiliate sign up link within their sales thread anyway???
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    • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      Do people really think they're going to attract decent affiliates by placing the affiliate sign up link within their sales thread anyway???

      I don't, which is one of a myrid of reasons I don't do that.

      I have a team that recruits manually for launch time. After that, depending on how things go, the rest (mostly) takes care of itself.

      I really have no need to link my JV pages to sales pages..... on or off this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        This was first announced over a month ago in Warrior Forum News.

        In fact, I registered my disdain on 10 July in the announcement thread at:
        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ml#post9345134

        Not even a reply from forum management

        It's their forum, so I guess they can allow what they want, but those who run WSOs should definitely be aware of the potential consequences of posting a link to their affiliate center in the same thread with their offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author smjconet
    Yes the sales leakage alone is enough to stay clear of this idea. I would never even consider becoming an affiliate for a product that redirected leads to become an affiliate. It's self defeating.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    trying to put profits over common sense.
    Have you ever known that to end well?
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  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
    I totally agree. The best affiliates are you customers or people you actually know.

    Doing this will attract shady people who don't have good intentions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    I would guess that the biggest question here would be does the Warrior Payment System use its own banking authority to do business.

    If they use paypal, its likely something that will become an issue in the near future.

    If they have the infrastructure to produce a micro-finance service complete with merchant accounts then it would not matter, not sure I see that level of sophistication in the company at this point and time.

    But it is certainly a possibility one that would be attractive simply because of how Paypal manages to discourage the digital product business model.

    The thing is buyers like paypal because it offers a layer of protection between your credit card data and the products and services they want to buy.

    That would have to be a big part of the plan if they were to ever create a micro payment service, (frankly I do not see the likelihood of such a serious outlay of cash, plus the talent in programming needed to create a secure solution.

    Who knows for sure what they might do over time, but have to agree violating terms of service for paypal vendors, is not a good road to go down.
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    • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    In addition to all that stuff, it can also cause affiliates to lose sales. Some platforms set their own cookie when someone clicks on the "see sales page" links (in W+ or JVZoo). A visitor can easily click on that and it will override the original affiliates cookie.
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    How is this for a strategy...

    Vendor starts of with NO affiliates and offer an affiliate program on the sales page.

    On top of that, the vendor specifically allow them to buy through their own affiliate link!

    1. The vendor makes sales $_$
    2. The purpose isn't to get affiliates on board BUT to acquire a sale + build a list etc
    3. Refund rates will decrease because that means that affiliate will technically "lose a sale"

    Not bad right?
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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      Originally Posted by gluckspilz View Post

      How is this for a strategy...

      Vendor starts of with NO affiliates and offer an affiliate program on the sales page.

      On top of that, the vendor specifically allow them to buy through their own affiliate link!

      1. The vendor makes sales $
      2. The purpose isn't to get affiliates on board BUT to acquire a sale + build a list etc
      3. Refund rates will decrease because that means that affiliate will technically "lose a sale"

      Not bad right?
      I think the more complicated you make purchasing (like having them sign up as an affiliate so they can purchase through their own links) the less sales you will make.

      Typically the easier the process the better for you and your customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        I think the more complicated you make purchasing (like having them sign up as an affiliate so they can purchase through their own links) the less sales you will make.

        Typically the easier the process the better for you and your customers.
        Thomas speaks TRUTH. In fact.....

        I'm not sure what happened to it....... maybe I "timed out" when I hit "post" and my reply never made it OR........ (something more likely) someone came in here and rather than worrying about making money .... instead took themselves way to seriously and got offended by my somewhat harsh reply because I tend to speak truth before worrying about feelings and thus had a mod delete my reply.

        It's cool. While he's off sipping on baby formula..... heres what I wanted to say (in a gentler way):

        It does not matter who processes payments. because if you offer an affiliate link in your WSO thread you wont process as many.

        At the end of the day...... sales MATTER.

        We want to achieve the highest conversion rate possible. Adding a link to your affiliate program runs counter to that goal.

        Believe me. In 15 years ive tested most everything under the sun and the above is a proven statement of fact.

        My students take me at my word because they've come to know that what I say WORKS but I don't expect that same kind of trust on an open forum so I'll explain WHY this is true.....

        The goal of a "direct response" ad or sales letter much like those used in WSO threads is to compel an ACTION.

        ONE..... action.

        It cod be anything you like... a sale... an opt-in... to garner an affiliate... or whatever.

        Pick one.... but only one.

        For the sake of this discussion, we're going for SALES. We have to craft our offer to ask for them then. That requires FOCUS.

        We must FOCUS our copy to get that ONE THING.... a sale.

        We can't do that if, at the end of the sales letter there are 2 options... buy now or join the affiliate program.

        What ends up happening is that one distracts from the other resulting in fewer conversions for BOTH offers (affiliate and purchase).

        To link an affiliate program within a sales page is a fundamental flaw. Direct response marketing just doesn't work that way - not 15 years ago, not today..... and not 15 years from now.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve B
          Here's another reason not to advertise your affiliate program on the sales page.

          The prospect decides to click on your "Affiliates" link before he purchases your product. On the recruitment page he sees you're giving 60% commissions on every sale.

          In many peoples' minds the gears start turning . . . hummmm . . . this product owner is really only selling the $20 product to me for $8 (he's giving away $12 to someone else) . . . "I'm getting screwed!"

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
            Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

            In many peoples' minds the gears start turning . . . hummmm . . . this product owner is really only selling the $20 product to me for $8 (he's giving away $12 to someone else) . . . "I'm getting screwed!"

            Steve
            I guess that could happen but that's kind of "reaching" but yeah, I wouldn't rule that out I guess.

            They'd probably be more likely to fool around trying to game the system in an attempt to get their own link through which to buy..... if they stay focused long enough to actually follow through and buy after all that "monkey business" commences.

            And to think...... absent all that, they likely would have just bought.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steve B
              Ben,

              I know that some people, for whatever reason, will not click on affiliate links. They'll see the underlying destination of the sales page and go directly there rather than allow an affiliate to make a commission. I know there's no difference in cost to the buyer, but I've seen this happen repeatedly.

              So maybe the mentality is that people don't like to pay sales commissions for whatever reason.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
                Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

                Ben,

                I know that some people, for whatever reason, will not click on affiliate links. They'll see the underlying destination of the sales page and go directly there rather than allow an affiliate to make a commission. I know there's no difference in cost to the buyer, but I've seen this happen repeatedly.

                So maybe the mentality is that people don't like to pay sales commissions for whatever reason.

                Steve
                Steve,

                I get it. Have a better idea of where you're coming from now. Thanks for your contribution. Not to get "off topic" but you know what?

                It's funny because there's a good chance that the people doing what you describe are more likely than not.... affiliates themselves.

                Good grief. the human race is a funny thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Giving you the benefit of the doubt...

      If you're going to make a "tongue in cheek" comment like this:

      Originally Posted by gluckspilz View Post

      How is this for a strategy...

      Vendor starts of with NO affiliates and offer an affiliate program on the sales page.

      On top of that, the vendor specifically allow them to buy through their own affiliate link!

      1. The vendor makes sales $
      2. The purpose isn't to get affiliates on board BUT to acquire a sale + build a list etc
      3. Refund rates will decrease because that means that affiliate will technically "lose a sale"

      Not bad right?

      you should be sure to indicate that you're just joking.

      Otherwise, a lot of people might read what you wrote and think that it really is a good strategy.

      3. Refund rates will decrease because that means that affiliate will technically "lose a sale"
      Serial refunders aren't worried about "losing a sale", because they probably aren't actually promoting your product in the first place.

      They're just awarding themselves a free copy of your product (by getting the refund), and then probably posting your download link (or the product itself) on blackhat forums and/or free download sites.

      Believe me, that sort of affiliate... you don't need.
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  • Profile picture of the author internetmarketer1
    I probably won't be doing this now that I've read this, but again, it's all about making the right offer and making sure it is what a certain people in a certain niche want. As of now, I won't be promoting the affiliate page with this.
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  • Profile picture of the author edlewis
    You guys can go on and on about this as far as what you think is important about it...but Will was right as to WHY it was banned in the first place.

    Paypal didn't like it...and it was often the first piece of evidence they used after they locked someone's account during a WSO and the person asked for an explanation.

    I'm not trying to be a "Debbie Downer" but it shows a real disconnect between the new ownership and an understanding of the marketplace.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by edlewis View Post

      You guys can go on and on about this as far as what you think is important about it...but Will was right as to WHY it was banned in the first place.

      Paypal didn't like it...and it was often the first piece of evidence they used after they locked someone's account during a WSO and the person asked for an explanation.

      I'm not trying to be a "Debbie Downer" but it shows a real disconnect between the new ownership and an understanding of the marketplace.
      Totally agree.

      I don't think it's a bad idea because of lost sales. Any person who is going to buy through their own affiliate link is the type of person who will do it regardless. They can see what payment button you are using and so it's not hard for them to go and find your product.

      On that same token, serious affiliates who are interested in promoting your product will know exactly how to find it without you having to post a link to your affiliate offer in the sales thread. If I see a product I want to promote, it takes me all of 2 minutes to go to the relevant platform and find that offer.

      The only affiliates you will attract by placing an affiliate link in your thread are the 80% of affiliates who make you zero sales and open yourself up to a huge amount of risk.

      But back to the main point, this rule was put in place for a very good reason as stated in my previous comment. The fact the new owners have just removed this rule in the hope of making more sales does send a fairly strong message as to what their main objectives are here. In this case willing to put profits above protecting their sellers.

      In short, don't put affiliate links in your thread. You can still protect yourself even if the owners don't want to.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I agree with you 100%, but you know what they say about giving advice - fools don't heed it, and wise men don't need it.

    Remember a person saying to me. I don't care about my consumers. What I want is to make money.

    My reply was: soon you will have no consumers. After that, you will have no money.
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  • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
    @Will and Ed.......

    I have many reasons WHY I don't promote my affiliate program in my WSO. Anyone who's been reading this thread certainly knows that!

    I also agree with the PayPal issue. There's no disputing that as mentioned in my OP.

    I don't feel the need at this point to expand as you guys have done a fantastic job of laying out those facts in this thread.

    To that.... I give thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Advertising your affiliate program on your sales page is definitely a BAD idea. And it's true that PayPal DESPISES "self-replicating" biz opps.

    The funny thing is that lately I see so many of these types of biz opps being pushed it's not funny. I keep getting promo emails from some marketers for this one product called "Turbo PayPal". I'm guessing many of you have heard of this. It's nothing more than a crappy sales page that sells you the exact sales page and teaches you how to set it up so you can resell the whole crap product to someone else! You really have to not care about losing your PayPal account to promote something like that! I mean, it provides absolutely ZERO value as a product.

    Honestly, I can have sympathy for some newbie who wanted to make some money online and came across it and didn't know any better, but I have seen some very experienced marketers promoting it. There is also another one going around on Facebook that costs $100 but it's basically the same idea. They give you some cheesy auto posting software and teach you how to advertise the offer on Facebook so you can sell it to someone else and then they can start advertising it.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that really the exact model of a pyramid scheme?

    Also, and I'm unsure on this so someone please chime in, isn't it against PayPal's TOS to make it mandatory for someone to opt-in to access their download after they have purchased? I have heard it was, yet on many products I purchased I was required to enter my name and email address into an opt-in form in order to get to the download page. I'd like to know the answer to that for my own reference.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
      Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      Also, and I'm unsure on this so someone please chime in, isn't it against PayPal's TOS to make it mandatory for someone to opt-in to access their download after they have purchased? I have heard it was, yet on many products I purchased I was required to enter my name and email address into an opt-in form in order to get to the download page. I'd like to know the answer to that for my own reference.
      Yup. It's against the PayPal TOS. If a seller does it and PP gets a complaint about it, game over.
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      • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
        Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

        Yup. It's against the PayPal TOS. If a seller does it and PP gets a complaint about it, game over.
        Not only is it against PayPals TOS.... but these types of "self replicating" opportunities are illegal. They'll land their owners in hot water with the FTC.

        About "Turbo PayPal" discussed above..... they're also NOT ALLOWED to use PayPals name in their product title because that's a trademark.

        A quick and easy way to rid the web of THAT product would be someone "tipping off" PayPal about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I find it interesting none of the forum mods/owners have chimed in on this discussion.
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    • Profile picture of the author elarjjwes
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  • it's a really bad way to link your affiliate page in your salespage, people will know then that you want just to make money selling your product and you don't want to help them in their situation!
    Hope i'm not wrong
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Will,
      I find it interesting none of the forum mods/owners have chimed in on this discussion.
      I find it interesting that you'd choose to phrase it that way.

      The mods who were here before Freelancer took over have had their say on the issue long ago. The newer mods have only been around for a couple of months and don't generally discuss policy. At least so far. (I'm not certain they're even allowed to.)

      As far as Alaister and Matt, they've made their thoughts on the issue known. There was a link in that part of the WSO rules to the discussion which led to the original decision to not allow affiliate promotion in offers. They obviously read it, and they chose to take a different route.

      What more do they need to say?

      I obviously disagree with the new policy, but Freelancer owns the place.

      That said, no-one is required to take advantage of the new option.


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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    don't generally discuss policy. At least so far. (I'm not certain they're even allowed to.)

    As far as Alistair and Matt, they've made their thoughts on the issue known. There was a link in that part of the WSO rules to the discussion which led to the original decision to not allow affiliate promotion in offers. They obviously read it, and they chose to take a different route.
    Maybe they know something we don't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      Maybe they know something we don't.
      For instance...
      If new sellers are using the new Warrior Payments option, but for that to be effective long-term, affiliates have to be able to sign up to their affiliate network, then it only makes sense to allow the sellers to advertise the affiliate network for them???

      One major competitive issue for Warrior Payments vs. other payment options is the size of their affiliate network.
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