Internet Marketing Is NOT Selling How To Make Money Products

154 replies
Enough!

I am sick and tired of all these stupid threads.

"Can Internet Marketing Be Used To Sell Legitimate Products?"

"Is Internet Marketing A Scam?"

"Are There Honest Internet Marketing Opportunities?"

Internet marketing is nothing more than an advertising medium used to sell products and services.

Amazon (various products) uses Internet marketing.
Stillwell Audio (music processing products) uses Internet marketing
East West Quantum Leap (virtual sound generation products) uses Internet marketing
Healing Natural Oils (health related products) uses Internet marketing

Here's a nice definition of Internet marketing that I found online.

"Also called online marketing, it is the process of promoting a brand, products or services over the Internet. Its broad scope includes email marketing, electronic customer relationship management and any promotional activities that are done via wireless media."

Nowhere in that definition are the words "make money products exclusively", "scam" or "take advantage of noobs."

So for the love of God can we PLEASE stop with the stereotypes and nonsense?

I still do Internet marketing. I have a royalty free music site and will be releasing a dance music pack for people who like to exercise to dance music.

Please point out where any of that has anything to do with "how to make money online" or "ripping off noobs" or "scam".

Enough is enough!
#internet #make #marketing #money #products #selling
  • Profile picture of the author moneywithtim
    Nice post! Agree with you.
    You would be a great Internet Marketing Dr. Phil!
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    [MUST WANTED] Six Figure Income Online eBook!
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  • You're preaching to the wrong audience: you're in the Warrior Forum, a place that has, over time, almost entirely steered towards the Make Money Online By Selling/Coaching Make Money Online Products/Services crowd.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Everett
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      You're preaching to the wrong audience: you're in the Warrior Forum, a place that has, over time, almost entirely steered towards the Make Money Online By Selling/Coaching Make Money Online Products/Services crowd.
      Nevertheless I think a valid point has been made here. Internet Marketing is not a business in and of itself, it is purely a method of doing business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      You're preaching to the wrong audience: you're in the Warrior Forum, a place that has, over time, almost entirely steered towards the Make Money Online By Selling/Coaching Make Money Online Products/Services crowd.
      No, this is EXACTLY where I should be preaching because THIS is where you have all these CLUELESS people thinking that Internet marketing is nothing more than ripping off the guy on the other end of the PC.

      It needs to stop, NOW!
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      • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        No, this is EXACTLY where I should be preaching because THIS is where you have all these CLUELESS people thinking that Internet marketing is nothing more than ripping off the guy on the other end of the PC.

        It needs to stop, NOW!
        Ok then, battle on soldier.

        This kind of people you refer to (opportunists, short cutters, gold diggers, quick buck makers, magic system searchers, etc) have been hanging out at the Warrior Forum for years, but if you think you can change the very nature of this forum with this thread... go ahead
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Ok then, battle on soldier.

          This kind of people you refer to (opportunists, short cutters, gold diggers, quick buck makers, magic system searchers, etc) have been hanging out at the Warrior Forum for years, but if you think you can change the very nature of this forum with this thread... go ahead
          If I can educate ONE person who is new to this who thinks IM is all about "how to make money online" and get them to realize that there is more to it, then I've one my job.
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          • Profile picture of the author davesharp
            It is a shame that when folk thing about internet marketing and home business they think they have to be part of some deal or opportunity. But internet marketing is just that, using the internet to market products.

            Like Steve I have been involved in the 'home business' niche but have come to realise that real success lies well outside this niche. And it's now time to put our skills and knowledge to good use and promote products and services that people actually need and want.

            Online marketing sounds so much better and professional than internet marketing doesn't it?

            David
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          • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            If I can educate ONE person who is new to this who thinks IM is all about "how to make money online" and get them to realize that there is more to it, then I've one my job.
            What you fail to address is that most new people coming to this forum are precisely looking for a short cut. They're not interested in real education (AKA hard work, think out of the box, business-like approach, etc), but a "system" to make a quick-buck. Therefore, other members (opportunists) cater to that very interest offering them those "systems".

            It's like telling a smoker that smoking kills... pointless preach: he knows, and he still smokes.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              What you fail to address is that most new people coming to this forum are precisely looking for a short cut. They're not interested in real education (AKA hard work, think out of the box, business-like approach, etc), but a "system" to make a quick-buck. Therefore, other members (opportunists) cater to that very interest offering them those "systems".

              It's like telling a smoker that smoking kills... pointless preach: he knows, and he still smokes.
              Not the point and you're still not getting it. There are people who hear that "Internet Marketing" = "Ripping people off" + "Selling how to make money products". They at least need to know that this is not the ONLY choice in pursuing a way to make a living, that is is not the ONLY option, that IM doesn't automatically mean "I'm a crook" that there are legitimate ways to make money selling "make money products" and "not make money products."

              This whole industry has a horrible stigma attached to it. People new to it hear the term "Internet marketing" and immediately think the worst, while at the same time going to Amazon and buying the latest video game because Amazon is honest because they don't DO Internet marketing.

              That's the problem and THAT'S what I'm trying to point out to people, that there ARE options.

              If you want to be a pessimist and have no part of my "crusade" then fine. But you're trying to "convince" me that I'm wasting my time is a waste of YOUR time because I have no intention of letting up.

              Furthermore, your negative talk is just more poison being fed to the few people who are maybe on the fence about all this or truly starting out. Let them at least be educated to the fact that there are other options without making them think that they're wasting THEIR time because there's actually work involved and short cuts and schemes are the only way.

              They are not.
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              • Edit: Bah, never mind
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                  Unfortunately, it's YOU who dont get it.

                  The people who have chosen that dubious path already know, and they don't care because what they're after is NOT a legitimate business but a quick buck, no matter the means.

                  Like I said before, it's like telling smokers that smoking kills: they know, and they dont care.

                  Anyway, I'm out. I'll let you go on with your crusade.
                  Sorry AA, you don't get it. Steven isn't talking to the people in your quote. You seem to think everyone here is wanting a quick buck. Nope, and I would hope you are not one of those looking for a quick buck either.

                  New people coming here may not understand the difference from seeing all the crap being sold here and the questions being asked.

                  If you don't want to help educate people, that is up to you. I don't see why you feel the need to jump on Steven for wanting to help while you sit back and do nothing.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    Sorry AA, you don't get it. Steven isn't talking to the people in your quote. You seem to think everyone here is wanting a quick buck. Nope, and I would hope you are not one of those looking for a quick buck either.
                    Thomas, and therein lies the biggest problem. Too many people, like AA, automatically assume that every new person here is after a quick buck and don't care if there are other choices. It's like MLM. Even the legit ones have such a hard time because there is this stigma. Actually, the better word is stereotyping.

                    That's what needs to stop.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      Thomas, and therein lies the biggest problem. Too many people, like AA, automatically assume that every new person here is after a quick buck and don't care if there are other choices. It's like MLM. Even the legit ones have such a hard time because there is this stigma. Actually, the better word is stereotyping.

                      That's what needs to stop.
                      I hear ya, man. A lot of times I post, not for the person asking the question, but for people who may be reading it.

                      A lot of people have tunnel vision and that is a bad thing for long term stability.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                This whole industry has a horrible stigma attached to it.
                Which industry?
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                  Which industry?
                  And that's just my point. IM isn't an industry. It's a method of promoting your product or service using the Internet as a medium. But people hear the word IM and immediately think what they think and what I'm trying to get across in this thread.

                  So anytime you say to somebody "I'm an Internet marketer" they automatically think you're selling some kind of snake oil without even considering that you might actually be selling something like audio processing plugins.

                  I no longer tell people I'm an Internet marketer. I tell them precisely what it is I do. It eliminates any confusion.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve B
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          This kind of people you refer to (opportunists, short cutters, gold diggers, quick buck makers, magic system searchers, etc) have been hanging out at the Warrior Forum for years . . .

          IMO, these are the folks that should not be going into business at all because whatever they choose to market is going to end up being bad for any customers they may attract.

          The low barriers to entry in this business attract all sorts of entrepreneurs, the serious and not-so-serious, the honest and dishonest, the scammers and the legitimate product owners.

          I have often commented that we (all IMers collectively) are as much to blame for the problem that Steven talks about as anyone!

          In our own efforts to market what we do, we love to talk about "easy," "automatic," "push button," "done for you," "rags to riches," "six figures," "lifestyle business," "instant expert," "money out of thin air," and all the other hypey terms and phrases we apply to our own solutions and products.

          I'm not saying YOU do this sort of marketing, but it is rampant in our industry in every niche and product and so we are all guilty by association as IMers.

          I agree with what you're pleading Steven, but unfortunately, I don't know how to change the entire industry. I think the best we can do is NOT participate individually in scamming tactics and let natural attrition weed out those who persist in being scammers.

          Thanks for the thread,

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        No, this is EXACTLY where I should be preaching because THIS is where you have all these CLUELESS people thinking that Internet marketing is nothing more than ripping off the guy on the other end of the PC.

        It needs to stop, NOW!
        Seriously? There's a lot more in life to be worried about.
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        Create and Differentiate. Illuminate Your Buyers Need or Wants. Grow Rich.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan View Post

          Seriously? There's a lot more in life to be worried about.
          It keeps my mind off the stuff that's really pissing me off like people not getting back to me with support requests after 4 days.

          This is my therapy.
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      • Profile picture of the author prbarton
        Good job "using" the WF to promote your online business. Maybe I should write a case study on how to promote non-IM products on the WF and sell it for a tidy little price LOL.

        Seriously buddy, good job. Who did you learn this from?
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by prbarton View Post

          Good job "using" the WF to promote your online business. Maybe I should write a case study on how to promote non-IM products on the WF and sell it for a tidy little price LOL.

          Seriously buddy, good job. Who did you learn this from?
          His product is not exclusively non-IM. It crosses over into an IM product quite nicely. All the IMers who need royalty free background music for all of the videos they create would find his music cheap and useful. In addition, his sig said that he would create custom tracks.

          The point isn't whether Steven is nice or not nice. He actually was extremely rude to many people back when he was making big bucks. Not very nice.

          He has now posted many threads with sob stories, with starting over stories and several of them got closed because Steve has this wonderful way of trying to create sympathy for himself, asking for advice and then arguing with everyone who gives it, telling them why their advice is not applicable to him. He is arrogant to the hilt and still wants to do it his own way, but for some reason thinks that help is owed to him when he requests it.

          Two people in this thread have spent time to directly help him recently, and neither one received so much as a thank you.

          Respectfully Steve ... I've read several posts where you're going to spend $500 on software and $10K on hardware and if I may be so bold to suggest that if you really need help with a relatively simple problem, go here > Wanted - Members Looking To Hire You

          Spit out a few bucks and hire someone. As long as you pay them, they won't need a thank you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Luke Dennison
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        No, this is EXACTLY where I should be preaching because THIS is where you have all these CLUELESS people thinking that Internet marketing is nothing more than ripping off the guy on the other end of the PC.

        It needs to stop, NOW!
        The last I saw of you on here you where begging for help after having earned almost nothing in like five years or something, so I won't be listening to anything you're "preaching" because you're clearly as clueless about making money online as the people you're calling clueless.
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      You're preaching to the wrong audience: you're in the Warrior Forum, a place that has, over time, almost entirely steered towards the Make Money Online By Selling/Coaching Make Money Online Products/Services crowd.
      HAhahaa! This just made my day!
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      Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
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    • Profile picture of the author star007
      I think so too (preaching to the wrong crowd) since that is what most of us try to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author kingde
    Internet marketing (and I guess Online Marketing) often gets lumped into Opportunity Internet Marketing.. so if you want the noble meaning, why not just say digital marketing, info product marketing etc?

    I think Internet Marketing by itself actually implies a 'job' for a company. Most of the people here want to make money on their own.. that's why the opportunity part is implied.

    Actually I don't think Internet Marketing, Opportunity Internet Marketing or Digital marketing is really much of "marketing" at all, it is more of digital advertising and digital analytics, focusing primarily on advertising channels and 'capturing' leads.

    Are you sure what you're talking about is even marketing at all?

    Actually if you were a marketer, you would know you can't 'tell' a community of people how to think, act and behave. You need to behave as one of them and then 'lead'...
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by kingde View Post

      Internet marketing (and I guess Online Marketing) often gets lumped into Opportunity Internet Marketing.. so if you want the noble meaning, why not just say digital marketing, info product marketing etc?
      "Opportunity Internet Marketing" - who made that up? I think it sounds kinda silly... lol

      I think Internet Marketing by itself actually implies a 'job' for a company. Most of the people here want to make money on their own.. that's why the opportunity part is implied.
      Why do you think that? I've been marketing on the internet since the days
      of the old usenet bulletin boards and I never thought it had anything to do with
      having a job with some company.

      Actually if you were a marketer, you would know you can't 'tell' a community of people how to think, act and behave. You need to behave as one of them and then 'lead'...
      If he were a marketer... LOL. I think Steven did a fine job of describing a mindset
      that has permeated the forum over the years I've beeen observing and participating.

      Once upon a time this was a place where people gathered to discuss, learn
      and hone the craft. It has devolved (in my opinion) to a place where not much
      is really happening on a positive note. It was once the best place on the net to
      exchange ideas. It has become little more than a place to exchange money.

      Hence... the group mindset Steven describes
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    Amen!

    The "Can Internet Marketing Be Used To Sell Legitimate Products?" post really disturbed me. I understand there are a lot of newbies here who really don't have a clue.

    That's ok.

    But that post was truly disturbing. I mean Seriously???

    I responded , but I don't even know why. It's like shouting into the wind. No one hears you. Most of the time, the OP doesn't even bother to come back and respond or thank those who have responded.

    And yet, people think they can learn everything they need to know about IM on a forum.

    Uh, NOT! Too much info rolling by too quickly, in a very disorganized fashion. Worse, it's only bits and pieces of the whole picture. It's NEVER the whole picture on a forum.

    Yet people want to moan and groan about why they SHOULDN'T invest in a comprehensive training...

    I really thinking I'm completely wasting my time here. I certainly don't come to learn as I'm much more advanced now. But I remember what it was like, so I come back to help and share info.

    I don't think it's doing much good. Very few (if any) seem to have benefited from the info I've shared.

    Maybe those of us who are succeeding should go off and work on our own businesses instead of spending time here helping -- for free. But then, people here will complain that everyone wants money and no one is helping them!

    Oh wait. They already do that.

    Michelle
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    "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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    • Profile picture of the author CarolK
      Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post



      I really thinking I'm completely wasting my time here. I certainly don't come to learn as I'm much more advanced now. But I remember what it was like, so I come back to help and share info.

      I don't think it's doing much good. Very few (if any) seem to have benefited from the info I've shared.

      Maybe those of us who are succeeding should go off and work on our own businesses instead of spending time here helping -- for free. But then, people here will complain that everyone wants money and no one is helping them!
      I don't know about others, but I know that I appreciate fellow Warriors like yourself Michelle, that share their experience and information that can only be attained by actually doing the work. I seek out posts like that and I value the time it took and take notes. I also see the posts as an inspiration to keep going and my success is just around the corner!

      So thanks to you Michelle and all the other Warriors helping on the forum, you are appreciated.

      Carol
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  • Profile picture of the author MargoJones
    Couldn't agree more, hate to admit but until last couple of months I personally was believing internet marketing = selling make money online product! ha..

    It's great that the very first training I invested into opened up my eyes to see bigger picture!
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Too much info rolling by too quickly, in a very disorganized fashion. Worse, it's only bits and pieces of the whole picture. It's NEVER the whole picture on a forum.
    Not to mention a large percentage is flat out not true.
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    Get Off The Warrior Forum Now & Don't Come Back If You Want To Succeed!
    All The Real Marketers Are Gone. There's Nothing Left But Weak, Sniveling Wanna-Bees!
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    • Profile picture of the author TheCardMaker
      I've worked very hard for a few years now building a genuinely honest website and software to sell, have zero customers and have made nought pence in profit thus far (been busy coding), but still I follow my belief. I am only interested in learning how to promote the work I have risked my livelihood to produce. I've signed up for the Warrior forums so that I can take my hard work and sell it somehow to put food onto my sons table

      So, Nightengale, Steven, if you and those like you disappear, all I'm left with is people selling people 'how to sell to people' - seems like a dog chasing its own tail to me. Just letting you know that you are most definitely appreciated by me, I've learned loads already in just one week about my stuff in my niche thanks to Warriors like you
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  • Profile picture of the author seekdefo
    I agree with you. But sadly, other than the few of us who see this, no one else is going to know about this and this thread too like many others that have appeared will sink into the anonymousness of the web.
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by seekdefo View Post

      I agree with you. But sadly, other than the few of us who see this, no one else is going to know about this and this thread too like many others that have appeared will sink into the anonymousness of the web.
      You're right - it's funny, it took me a long time to realize that you only make money when you give people what they want.

      So many of us try to convince people to eat carrots, when what they want is a pack of Malboros...
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  • Profile picture of the author Wildfire Results
    Most products sold on the internet are actually physical products.
    The formula for quick results is easy, create an offer your audience
    can't refuse and send targeted traffic to it, and test everything.
    The most successful marketers test, test, and test some more.
    It's not complicated, but you have to take action.
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    While I was reading this, on the above banner there was an offer of how I can make $62.000/year.

    No, IM is not only about biz op but Warrior Forum is.

    In the last years, I've helped promote products from most niches.

    I've still found biz op, weight-loss and dating to be the most effective.

    You know why?

    Because people don't actually care about the truth.

    "OK, do you want to lose weight? Eat less, exercise more, stop eating three menus each time you hit McDonalds".

    Do they care about this?

    HELL NO. They want a quick pill that would make them sexy and thing overnight.

    The same about Information Marketing.

    There are a lot of authors there who provide actual, tangible, valuable advice. Eben Pagan is one of them.

    Yet the best sold products are those who promise you a huge fortune in very little time doing nothing at all.

    This is the nature of the game.

    At least my products were in the self-development and time management niche. Stephen Covey type of information. However, I would not turn down a biz op product based on these reasons alone.
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    • Originally Posted by RogozRazvan View Post

      While I was reading this, on the above banner there was an offer of how I can make $62.000/year.

      No, IM is not only about biz op, but Warrior Forum is.

      In the last years, I've helped promote products from most niches.

      I've still found biz op, weight-loss and dating to be the most effective.

      You know why?

      Because people don't actually care about the truth.

      "OK, do you want to lose weight? Eat less, exercise more, stop eating three menus each time you hit McDonalds".

      Do they care about this?

      HELL NO. They want a quick pill that would make them sexy and thing overnight.

      The same about Information Marketing.
      And that is what I've been saying all along: most people ending up in this forum don't care about the truth, they just want the quick pill.

      Consequence? This type of thing, right here on this very house:




      /Shrug... it's just the way it is.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

        And that is what I've been saying all along: most people ending up in this forum don't care about the truth, they just want the quick pill.

        Consequence? This type of thing:




        /Shrug... it's just the way it is.
        You are confusing the message with the medium. Internet marketing is NOT the message. It is just a way of delivering the message.

        But I am done wasting my breath on you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

        And that is what I've been saying all along: most people ending up in this forum don't care about the truth, they just want the quick pill.

        Consequence? This type of thing, right here on this very house:



        /Shrug... it's just the way it is.
        AA, I took a quick look at your sig file and the video said the price will be raised in 24 hours with a countdown. When I go back tomorrow (from a new IP address), will that price be higher or is this part of the problem we see on this site.
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        • Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          AA, I took a quick look at your sig file and the video said the price will be raised in 24 hours. When I go back tomorrow, will that price be higher or is this part of the problem we see on this site.
          You misunderstood me completely: I dont think there's a problem, and thus I don't think there's anything to fix.

          As opposed to Steven, I'm not on a morale crusade. I'm just realistic enough to realize the rules of the game and what the market is after, and cater to that reality like a marketer should. Thus, the existence of offer like the banner I pointed in my previous post.

          Does the market want cigarettes even though it kills (and they're well aware of it)? Ok then, no problem: as a marketer, I will promote Marlboro and I will have no problem whatsoever doing so.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

            You misunderstood me completely: I dont think there's a problem, and thus I don't think there's anything to fix.

            As opposed to Steven, I'm not on a morale crusade. I'm just realistic enough to realize the rules of the game and what the market is after, and cater to that reality like a marketer should. Thus, the existence of offer like the banner I pointed in my previous post.

            Does the market want cigarettes even though it kills (and they're well aware of it)? Ok then, no problem: as a marketer, I will promote Marlboro and I will have no problem whatsoever doing so.
            Trying to educate people isn't a morale crusade. I can see why some would think that if they need to use false scarcity to push their products.

            Most of the majority here are business people. As business people, we need to give what our market wants but what it also needs. Otherwise we won't be very successful in keeping our customers.

            As for the Marlboro comment, you either have ethics or you don't. I wouldn't promote it because I am opposed to it. There are plenty of other things I can promote without having to sell myself out. If you're not oppose to cigs, no problem.

            The problem comes in when you only care about cashing in above all else.
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            • Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Most of the majority here are business people.
              And that is where you're wrong, in my opinion.

              Most of the people here (tens of thousands of members) are day dreamers without a real intention (or drive) to create, manage and grow a real business. They're magic pill seekers, gold diggers, and thus the type of offers floating around the WSO forum. WSO sellers realize that, and therefore they offer just what the market seeks: a magic pill, a shovel, a "system", a coaching program...

              Believe me: I *wish* most people here were indeed business people, as the level of the discussions here at the WF would be so much fulfilling to us all
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                And that is where you're wrong, in my opinion.

                Most of the people here (tens of thousands of members) are day dreamers without a real intention (or drive) to create, manage and grow a real business. They're magic pill seekers, gold diggers, and thus the type of offers floating around the WSO forum. WSO sellers realize that, and therefore they offer just what the market seeks: a magic pill, a shovel, a "system", a coaching program...

                Believe me: I *wish* most people here were indeed business people, as the level of the discussions here at the WF would be so much fulfilling to us all
                You're right. Maybe it was wishful thinking but you're right. Most here are not business people even though they should be.
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                • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  You're right. Maybe it was wishful thinking but you're right. Most here are not business people even though they should be.
                  A lot of people just aren't able to effectively run a business. However, if they would just accept & embrace that (assuming they can't or don't want to put in the work to change it) they could still make some decent money online as a freelance service provider or a virtual staffer for someone who does run an online business.
                  Signature
                  "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
                  ~ Zig Ziglar
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                    A lot of people just aren't able to effectively run a business. However, if they would just accept & embrace that (assuming they can't or don't want to put in the work to change it) they could still make some decent money online as a freelance service provider or a virtual staffer for someone who does run an online business.
                    Sure, as long as they weren't the type of person looking for the magic pill. I wouldn't want anyone to work for me that wanted push button solutions. I don't think they have the mindset that I would want to work with.

                    But... hehe

                    We aren't talking about a gazillion dollar business here. There was a blogger here making 6 figures that was asking about how much he/she could sell their site. You don't need to be an MBA grad to do something like that.

                    You just need to focus and work at it. This stuff really isn't that difficult. People just jump from one thing to another and you never truly get anywhere doing that. Luckily I have always been stubborn so I work at it (even if I should have quit) until I get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    It always bothers me a bit when people refer to IM as a "niche". Internet Marketing is not a niche. It is a marketing method whereby one uses the Internet to market their product, service, or company, whatever that may be.

    I think when people refer to Internet Marketing as a niche, they are referring to all of the products that show people how to make money online. Hence, that niche is actually "make money online", or "online biz opp", and NOT Internet Marketing!

    It's sad because I think referring to Internet Marketing as one of those niches actually contributes to the thinking that being an Internet Marketer means you are running a scam of some kind.

    I remember when I first explained what I was doing to some family members. They heard the words "Internet Marketer" and "online business" and immediately they thought I was either running some kind of scam or operating porn websites!
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  • Profile picture of the author online only
    Exactly.

    I'm making tonloads of money by selling legitimate products/services. Or better yet, I'm just an affiliate who helps businesses get more revenue. How's that scam?

    Funny thing: One of my friend asked what I do for living. I told him that I'm doing internet marketing.

    He answered: Is this is somesort of scam?
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    Yes Anonymous Affiliate.

    I love WF but saying not to focus on biz op here is like preaching virginity in the Red Light district.

    A better piece of advice is to focus on good, valuable products.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RogozRazvan View Post

      Yes Anonymous Affiliate.

      I love WF but saying not to focus on biz op here is like preaching virginity in the Red Light district.

      A better piece of advice is to focus on good, valuable products.
      Again, you are confusing the message with the medium. I'm not telling people not to sell "how to make money products" if that's what they want to do. I am saying that the term Internet marketing does not mean that.

      Please read the definition again.
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    Right.

    If you read my first post you'll see that I've said BIZ OP.

    Internet Marketing is the environment as a whole.

    Biz op is usually the same thing as get rich quick.

    Information publishing means creating / promoting products online.

    But I've got no interest in wasting two hours of my time arguing,
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by RogozRazvan View Post

      Right.

      If you read my first post you'll see that I've said BIZ OP.

      Internet Marketing is the environment as a whole.

      Biz op is usually the same thing as get rich quick.

      Information publishing means creating / promoting products online.

      But I've got no interest in wasting two hours of my time arguing,
      Yep, internet marketing as used today is more of a biz op. I originally came onto this site because I was already pushing a software product I developed for real estate investing. I originally created it for myself and then started selling it online.

      I was making sales but knew I needed to learn more and this was where I ended up.

      This was some time ago and it was more about marketing online and not biz ops. If I had come to this site now I would be very hesitant because a lot of what is sold here isn't of any interest to me.

      I do think many people are like me and are put off from the circle jerk that we see today. That is who Steven is talking to. That is who I normally post for.

      There are plenty of people who want something long term and are willing to work for it.

      I have seen quite a few people talk dirt about this community yet you see them selling their stuff on the same site. Making money off the people you talk smack about is parasitic in nature as far as I'm concerned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tommyg123
    Totally agree with OP. I'm pretty new to the forum and have been so happy with some great feedback from more experienced people. But when i arrived here I found it a bit odd that so much chat was about selling "how to make money online ebooks etc" and hunting for micro niches before they all get too competitive. It seems to limit the amazing knowledge a lot of people here have


    A top salesman doesnt go and only set up a "learn to sell" course. He goes and finds the most expensive most bang-for-your-buck product he can leverage his salesman skills on.

    Surprised more IM dont think "hey I am good at this internet selling im going to take on the big boys at selling a product online because I am dam good at selling things online"
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  • Profile picture of the author msuper28
    I agree with you.. too many fake ebooks selling around..
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    • Profile picture of the author TheCardMaker
      Wow! I got nailed there, didn't I? Could have sworn I was being positive, though

      My business will be just fine, I'll make it so, that's why I'm here interacting with experienced people (and being careful to show my gratitude) rather than buying an eBook for $30 telling me how I'll earn god knows how many dollars in some once achieved time frame by one person once (probably by selling the eBook I just bought)
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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Originally Posted by TheCardMaker View Post

        Wow! I got nailed there, didn't I? Could have sworn I was being positive, though

        My business will be just fine, I'll make it so, that's why I'm here interacting with experienced people (and being careful to show my gratitude) rather than buying an eBook for $30 telling me how I'll earn god knows how many dollars in some once achieved time frame by one person once (probably by selling the eBook I just bought)
        TheCardmaker,

        I reread my post and it was more harsh than I intended, so I deleted it.

        I looked at your site and it's very nice. I will be going back to use it and off the top of my head I have about 10 people in mind to show it to.

        George Wright
        Signature
        "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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        • Profile picture of the author TheCardMaker
          Hey thanks, George, it wasn't nasty and I'm grateful of your response

          Gotta love this forum, everybody here seems alive when compared to technical forums.
          Definitely something in the Warrior water...
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          • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
            Let's face it, when you say internet marketing or internet marketer. Most people think Money Making Opportunities. Why?

            Because it's the glamorous, sexy, alpha side of internet marketing. It's take a chance, make fast money ... from nothing. That''s the American Dream. That's the Hollywood version everyone is drawn to now and forever.

            Even if you don't buy the whole dream, you'll buy part of it. Other wise you'd probably just get or stay on your secure job.

            The only thing I hate about it is people's knee-jerk reaction to quick money, fast riches or immediate income with rip-off or scam. Instead they never equate it with ...
            • Supplying a demand!
            • Meeting an unmet, under-served or neglected need!
            • Feeding a starving crowd!
            It does happen you know. Not everyone who makes fast money is a rip-off artist, scammer or crook.



            ... It's often the reward of being in the right place.

            ... At the right time.

            ... With the right product or service.


            Everything doesn't have to take 20 years to be successful. Especially in this technology age. It's no longer that unbelievable. Is it?
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

              Let's face it, when you say internet marketing or internet marketer. Most people think Money Making Opportunities. Why?

              Because it's the glamorous, sexy, alpha side of internet marketing. It's take a chance, make fast money ... from nothing. That''s the American Dream. That's the Hollywood version everyone is drawn to now and forever.

              Even if you don't buy the whole dream, you'll buy part of it. Other wise you'd probably just get or stay on your secure job.

              The only thing I hate about it is people's knee-jerk reaction to quick money, fast riches or immediate income with rip-off or scam. Instead they never equate it with ...
              • Supplying a demand!
              • Meeting an unmet, under-served or neglected need!
              • Feeding a starving crowd!
              It does happen you know. Not everyone who makes fast money is a rip-off artist, scammer or crook.



              ... It's often the reward of being in the right place.

              ... At the right time.

              ... With the right product or service.


              Everything doesn't have to take 20 years to be successful. Especially in this technology age. It's no longer that unbelievable. Is it?
              See, now THIS is true. It doesn't have to take forever. If you're smart, do your research, target a hungry crowd (and they exist outside of how to make money) you can be successful in a relatively short period of time.

              The problem is getting the proper education in being able to do that, unless of course you want to stumble around in the dark which usually leads to frustration and a long period of time before you see success.

              Colleges don't really prepare us to go into business. They prepare us to work a job or get a career like being a doctor or lawyer. But college business courses are horrible as far as going out on your own and starting your own business. And forget about any education below that. All elementary and high school does is give you the tools to go out there and not be a total idiot when it comes to speaking the English language and doing basic math so you can at least balance your checkbook.

              As much as I dislike a lot of the "make money" niche, there are some good products that can be very helpful. But the problem is being able to separate those from the ones that are purely there to take your money.
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              • Profile picture of the author helpandinfo
                I tend to agree with your original sentiment that internet marketing isn't and shouldn't be about people ripping off newbs and there is too much of that going on.

                The trouble is that in all walks of life there are some people who get out there, learn what needs to be done by brainstorming and researching and working at it AND there are those who want to be shown every step of the way and basically can't be bothered putting together a proper action plan of their own and following it through.

                You can relate these people to bathers at the beach splashing around and shouting "Help Me! Help Me!" - The Warrior Forum and other forums like it are where these people do their bleating and where there's prey bleating or in the water - the wolves and the sharks will feed.

                It's nature's way.. :-)
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            • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
              Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

              Let's face it, when you say internet marketing or internet marketer. Most people think Money Making Opportunities.
              Nope. Most people don't. Most people don't give Internet marketing a second thought. I mean, average everyday people that go to work and have kids and have hobbies and play softball in the park and all the rest. They have no idea what backlinks are or what PPC means or any of the other stuff. The majority of people in the world have no idea what MMO is or what IM is, in the context of this forum.

              If you were to ask a "normal" person what Internet marketing was, she'd say. It's a venue where you can buy stuff. But here, I'd agree IM means MMO to most people.

              Here are a few more terms MMO people have co-opted and no longer have the same meanings regular marketing folks (translated marketers outside the MMO crowd) would recognize.

              Niche. Hey, is the Health niche too broad?
              Authority Site. Hey, take a couple of authority sites out of petty cash and thrown them up, would ya? We should be in fat city by next month.
              Solo Ads (doesn't the idea that anyone could have "guaranteed" clicks smell just a little fishy?)
              Articles. Sorry. 500 words does not an article make.

              There's more but I think most people that have been around a while already know. What's reassuring is there are actually lots of people that get it right. I feel like I have two heads trying to participate in many threads here because soooo many people have bought into flaky "business models" that have no chance of succeeding.

              I'm sure some of the newer members think I have my head up my ass when I tell them that certain practices are outdated or never worked in the first place. So they plod along and do their best at IM. So it goes...
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

                I feel like I have two heads trying to participate in many threads here because soooo many people have bought into flaky "business models" that have no chance of succeeding.
                And you're far from alone there!

                Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

                I'm sure some of the newer members think I have my head up my ass when I tell them that certain practices are outdated or never worked in the first place.
                Yes indeed; you're far from alone there, too.

                Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

                What's reassuring is there are actually lots of people that get it right.
                Yes, I agree - that's very reassuring (and makes the forum worthwhile, to put it bluntly).

                .
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              • Profile picture of the author jgant
                Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

                Nope. Most people don't. Most people don't give Internet marketing a second thought. I mean, average everyday people that go to work and have kids and have hobbies and play softball in the park and all the rest. They have no idea what backlinks are or what PPC means or any of the other stuff. The majority of people in the world have no idea what MMO is or what IM is, in the context of this forum.

                If you were to ask a "normal" person what Internet marketing was, she'd say. It's a venue where you can buy stuff.
                I think Travlinguy hits the nail on the head.

                When I'm asked what I do, I explain I publish online magazine style websites with articles and an email newsletter in XYZ niche and sell ads to companies who wish to advertise.

                In fact, this is exactly what I do in 2 niches. It's also an explanation people understand because they visit online news and magazine websites. obviously, mine aren't as popular as People Mag or Time Mag etc. but it drives the point home.

                I don't really care if Internet Marketing as a term has a stigma or is perceived to have a stigma. It's meaningless to most people anyway. I never use the term explaining what I do. If it's used to reference the MMO niche, so be it.

                To the OP, if I was in the royalty free music biz, I'd never refer to it as IM. I'd explain I operate an only music store selling my own music, similar to iTunes except it's my music. 85% of the population will understand this.

                While technically Amazon is in part an internet marketing company, I doubt that's the term board members and executives use to refer to its business model.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
    I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would answer "I'm an internet marketer" or "Internet Marketing" when someone asks them what they do.
    Signature
    "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
    ~ Zig Ziglar
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would answer "I'm an internet marketer" or "Internet Marketing" when someone asks them what they do.
      You know why Lance? Because they have no real business. They honestly don't know what they do and have no idea how else to describe it.

      When people would ask me what I did when I was involved in the MMO niche, I told them I was a business consultant, that I helped other people setup and manage their business. I didn't go into detail about what products and/or services I offered as the above explanation was clear enough.

      How many people start out and put up a blog one day and maybe sell some affiliate products, do some CPA and maybe some Adsense the next and then maybe dive into Kindle or Amazon the next because it's the new hot thing? And this goes on and on and on with absolutely no direction at all.

      That's why they say they're Internet marketers because they really have no idea what they do.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        Exactly!

        As someone else mentioned, it's positively ridiculous that people think IM is a niche. IM is a medium, not a business! It's like saying "I'm a television marketer" if you advertise your fitness program on TV. It's the height of absurdity.

        They don't understand what they're selling, how they sell it or what business they're in.

        Arrrrggh!

        Michelle
        Signature
        "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Pretty sure the last time I used to post here you were selling a product in your sig about how to make X per month when you were completely broke.

    Glad you've seen the light.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      Pretty sure the last time I used to post here you were selling a product in your sig about how to make X per month when you were completely broke.

      Glad you've seen the light.
      First of all, I never sold any product with income claims. Secondly, once my business tanked, I removed all my MMO products from my signature. The only thing there now is a PLR pack that isn't even active because I took down my shopping cart system.

      When I was in the MMO game, for lack of a better word, I was known as one of the good guys because I told it like it was and didn't make promises.

      So before you come here and start spouting crap, you better have the proof to back it up, not that I really give a crap anymore because I'm out of that business. I have nothing to sell to anybody here related to making money online. My business is now music and I prefer it that way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        First of all, I never sold any product with income claims.
        Then what would you call these (a few of your prior WSOs)...??:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-sold-out.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-20-going.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-20-going.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-sold-out.html

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Think about it. You're getting what I feel is a guaranteed
        $600 a month income
        from 44 solid pages of content and
        10 videos.
        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-reopened.html

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...y-43-left.html
        Signature
        If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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        • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
          Ouchh, he forgot about that

          If you provide value to people that's all that matters imo...Plus, if the methods lay the foundation of building a sustainable online business (building an email list for instance), then that's great.

          By your rational, helping people making money is a bad thing?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          First of all, if you read the sales copy, I never promised any amount of income. The closest I came was with that one quote where I said I "felt" was a guaranteed $600 a month. And certainly not the 10s of thousands of dollars you see plastered all over the Internet.

          Second of all, if you read the testimonials (what ones there were) you will see that people raved about my products because they actually worked.

          In fact, some of those people are still at this forum and will attest to that fact.

          Did my sales copy push the limits? Sure did. And with all that, I was lucky if I made 30 sales with a WSO. I did not get rich off this stuff.

          You want to call the above making income "claims" fine, I'm guilty. Shoot me. Couldn't care less. All these products are off the market, will never be sold again, and I have no intention of every selling anything to opportunity seekers ever again.

          Also, these are not the majority of my over 350 products that I have sold online. Most were "how to" or "case study" products that made absolutely no claims at all.

          The niche products were different. I had stumbled onto something that, with a little bit of work (when article marketing still worked) was profitable. Unfortunately, new niches were getting almost impossible to find and I wasn't going to sell more of these than I promised. If you look, none of the links work any longer because everything has been removed.

          You want to slam me for my ethics, be my guest. If I'm unethical, there isn't one person in the MMO niche who is.

          But whatever. Couldn't care less.
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          • Profile picture of the author M3C
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            First of all, if you read the sales copy, I never promised any amount of income. .
            Steve, I like you, always have but seriously.... if you say you've never made an income claim but have a WSO titled:

            "I'm Handing You A MINIMUM $1700 A Month Gold Mine"

            The ONLY decent thing to do , is to put your hands up and not try to argue your way out of it by commenting on how much people liked your product or that your income claim is less than other peoples, or that you didn't make much money or that you don't do that anymore etc - all blatant strawmans.

            My 2 cents, is come clean, apologize and walk away from this thread.

            What can't be argued is you helped a lot of people on this forum in the past.

            I personally, wouldn't cast a shadow over that with trying to argue your way out of what is crystal clear, especially when you're on a come back trail.

            You made income claims - end of story.

            This thread is rapidly turning into a cluster**** for you and WF folks see through excuses like a window.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by M3C View Post

              Steve, I like you, always have but seriously.... if you say you've never made an income claim but have a WSO titled:

              "I'm Handing You A MINIMUM $1700 A Month Gold Mine"

              The ONLY decent thing to do , is to put your hands up and not try to argue your way out of it by commenting on how much people liked your product or that your income claim is less than other peoples, or that you didn't make much money or that you don't do that anymore etc - all blatant strawmans.

              My 2 cents, is come clean, apologize and walk away from this thread.

              What can't be argued is you helped a lot of people on this forum in the past.

              I personally, wouldn't cast a shadow over that with trying to argue your way out of what is crystal clear, especially when you're on a come back trail.

              You made income claims - end of story.

              This thread is rapidly turning into a cluster**** for you and WF folks see through excuses like a window.
              Okay, fine, I forgot about these products out of the hundreds I've created. You win. I guess I did. Happy? Would you like to form the lynch party line to the right? Maybe you'd like an ounce of my blood? A pint perhaps?

              Hey everybody, I guess I was wrong. I made income claims. Didn't remember, but there it is in black and white.

              Now can we get back to the topic of this thread or would you all just like to turn this into a dump on Steven Wagenheim thread? If that latter, please note that I don't give a **** anymore. I'm out of this niche. I have nothing to sell to anybody here and don't really give a **** what anybody here thinks of me anymore.

              Here is what I DO care about.

              New people are coming here and being poisoned by the stereotype that IM is selling the dream to poor unsuspecting noobs. It's not. It's a marketing medium. Nothing more, nothing less. Selling the dream to noobs is only part of that medium.

              Now we can go back to discussing this or we can go back to dumping on me that I actually got caught up in selling that same dream because as many have said, at THIS forum, it's seems it's all most people want. I never argued that. It's painfully obvious from some of the WSOs that I ran here.

              But that is NOT the definition of IM and it's NOT the only way.

              And thank God I am out of this God forsaken whore of a niche and doing something with my life that I can finally feel good about.

              As for the rest of it, like I said...dump away.

              I couldn't give two shits worth.
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              • Profile picture of the author M3C
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Okay, fine, I forgot about these products out of the hundreds I've created. You win. I guess I did. Happy? Would you like to form the lynch party line to the right? Maybe you'd like an ounce of my blood? A pint perhaps?

                Hey everybody, I guess I was wrong. I made income claims. Didn't remember, but there it is in black and white.

                Now can we get back to the topic of this thread or would you all just like to turn this into a dump on Steven Wagenheim thread? If that latter, please note that I don't give a **** anymore. I'm out of this niche. I have nothing to sell to anybody here and don't really give a **** what anybody here thinks of me anymore.

                .
                ...

                If you think there's a winner in this , you're sadly mistaken.

                The above was a lousy reply to a relatively polite, olive branch, combined with a compliment.

                I'll leave you to your thread, I think the damage is already done.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by M3C View Post

                  ...

                  If you think there's a winner in this , you're sadly mistaken.

                  The above was a lousy reply to a relatively polite, olive branch, combined with a compliment.

                  I'll leave you to your thread, I think the damage is already done.
                  You're right, it's done. But it was done 2 years ago when my business went to hell. This is just pouring dirt on the corpse. So if you think I really care, you're mistaken. It's been two years since I've really been active in this niche so I forgot about some of the things I sold.

                  And you know what? When I look at some of this copy I wrote, it turns my stomach. I was as big a part of the problem as everybody else. I caved in to the "sell them the dream" mentality because it worked. In the early years, I wasn't like that. I hate what I had become. I'm glad I'm done with it.

                  And that's pretty much all I have to say on this subject.
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              • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                ...
                New people are coming here and being poisoned by the stereotype that IM is selling the dream to poor unsuspecting noobs. It's not. It's a marketing medium. Nothing more, nothing less. Selling the dream to noobs is only part of that medium.

                ....
                New people are NOT being poisoned. They are not poor and unsuspecting. They're are greedy, lazy, and most of them want something for nothing.

                They don't want the carrot, but they do want you to dangle it in front of them. Because then, they get to live in the "what if" world and dream about it. Without having to take the risks.

                A WSO is like a good movie, or better still, reality TV - you get to go to war, but without the scars, or getting your leg blown off. It's like porn - you get to come without the risk of rejection.

                So when, they get here they feel right at home. There are hundreds of thousands of books, tapes, and other resources. But they don't want that.

                The only people who agree with your post are those who already agree with it. The new guys, if they choose to stay, they either:

                - realize there is tons of money to be made here ( I guess me...)
                - and then those who think they will find the "magic pill"
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                New people are coming here and being poisoned by the stereotype that IM is selling the dream to poor unsuspecting noobs. It's not. It's a marketing medium. Nothing more, nothing less. Selling the dream to noobs is only part of that medium..
                The problem is that definition are not cemented in stone or in dictionaries. They are determined by usage which is why the word "cool" no longer refers just to temperature. Dictionaries bow to usage.

                JVs, Wsos, squeeze pages, "Providing value to your list", clickbank,"fake it till you make it", Guru, "wait don't leave pop ups", "As an Imer".

                are not words or phrases that ever come out of my real business customers mouths. The phrase "internet marketing" by usage has come to be connected to the MMO niche and you can sing high or sing low that usage will always beat you trying to demand the present dictionary's meaning. The only way you can stop that is by cleaning up the industry not complaining about meaning of words.

                Are you going to clean up the industry? Nope. because although its "politically correct" to only blame the seller it a buyers market. They determine what sells. Want a WSO tip?

                Look for the non hype WSOs with very few replies - Some of my best buys. They are sitting there deep in the bowels of the WSO section because the sellers made no cash worth bumping them. Good Lord the poor souls thought the quality of their offer would be the determining factor of getting sales so he/she/they - golly gee - worked extra hard putting some in there.

                Tanked like no tomorrow

                Why? because the buyer's definition of a good product is one that is quick and easy and will make them oodles of cash. Again you can argue with their definition, shucks you can even point out that no such product exists, but its their usage of the words "good product" that rules.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  The problem is that definition are not cemented in stone or in dictionaries. They are determined by usage which is why the word "cool" no longer refers just to temperature. Dictionaries bow to usage.

                  JVs, Wsos, squeeze pages, "Providing value to your list", clickbank,"fake it till you make it", Guru, "wait don't leave pop ups", "As an Imer".

                  are not words or phrases that ever come out of my real business customers mouths. The phrase "internet marketing" by usage has come to be connected to the MMO niche and you can sing high or sing low that usage will always beat you trying to demand the present dictionary's meaning. The only way you can stop that is by cleaning up the industry not complaining about meaning of words.

                  Are you going to clean up the industry? Nope. because although its "politically correct" to only blame the seller it a buyers market. They determine what sells. Want a WSO tip?

                  Look for the non hype WSOs with very few replies - Some of my best buys. They are sitting there deep in the bowels of the WSO section because the sellers made no cash worth bumping them. Good Lord the poor souls thought the quality of their offer would be the determining factor of getting sales so he/she/they - golly gee - worked extra hard putting some in there.

                  Tanked like no tomorrow

                  Why? because the buyer's definition of a good product is one that is quick and easy and will make them oodles of cash. Again you can argue with their definition, shucks you can even point out that no such product exists, but its their usage of the word "good product" that rules.
                  God, I hate agreeing with something so depressing as this, but when you're right, you're right.

                  What's left to say?
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            First of all, if you read the sales copy, I never promised any amount of income.
            Oh come on Steve. You're skirting around the issue. You implied profits of large dollar amounts. Did you think all of us would forget your previous life before music products? I bought several of your products, took massive action and made practically nothing.

            Not complaining. It was a test and it failed and I didn't buy again. No problem. Lesson learned. But your holier than thou rant doesn't strike a genuine tone with those of with memories still intact.

            The so called (but not accurate) IM Industry, aka MMO, BizOp Industry has a reputation that it deserves for the most part. There are far too many players in it for the fast buck, making all kinds of wild promises and not delivering on those promises. The problem is two-fold because a large segment of the market is lazy, dreamers seeking exactly those types of products. They are getting exactly what they want until they discover that it's a lie.

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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Oh come on Steve. You're skirting around the issue. You implied profits of large dollar amounts. Did you think all of us would forget your previous life before music products? I bought several of your products, took massive action and made practically nothing.

              Not complaining. It was a test and it failed and I didn't buy again. No problem. Lesson learned. But your holier than thou rant doesn't strike a genuine tone with those of with memories still intact.

              The so called (but not accurate) IM Industry, aka MMO, BizOp Industry has a reputation that it deserves for the most part. There are far too many players in it for the fast buck, making all kinds of wild promises and not delivering on those promises. The problem is two-fold because a large segment of the market is lazy, dreamers seeking exactly those types of products. They are getting exactly what they want until they discover that it's a lie.
              I have apologized. I forgot these products. It's been 2 years. And as I said, in retrospect, I hate that I fell into the "cater to the I want to make a quick buck mentality" that is rampant not just in this forum but in the whole MMO industry.

              My early stuff wasn't like this. Of course my early stuff didn't sell nearly as well because there were no big fancy headlines of how I made blah, blah, blah. But then you go through the WSO forum and see what's the most popular threads and you get sucked in.

              That is my only regret in the 11 years I've been marketing online, getting sucked into that mentality.

              So again, I apologize. Fortunately, it will never happen again. I'd rather go hungry and be homeless than ever get sucked into that black hole again. It almost killed my soul and I can see that now.

              I'm not judging anybody who caters to this crowd. That wasn't what this thread was supposed to be about. It was simply supposed to be about differentiating between a marketing method and a business model, that's all.

              As far as my part in contributing to the state of the MMO industry, guilty as charged and it sickens me. Not that I did anything illegal or unethical (just look at the paid banner ads here) but as somebody who has always hated that crap, I got sucked into it just like so many others have. I guess that kind of makes me a hypocrite doesn't it.
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              • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                So again, I apologize. Fortunately, it will never happen again. I'd rather go hungry and be homeless than ever get sucked into that black hole again. It almost killed my soul and I can see that now.

                I'm not judging anybody who caters to this crowd. That wasn't what this thread was supposed to be about. It was simply supposed to be about differentiating between a marketing method and a business model, that's all.

                As far as my part in contributing to the state of the MMO industry, guilty as charged and it sickens me. Not that I did anything illegal or unethical (just look at the paid banner ads here) but as somebody who has always hated that crap, I got sucked into it just like so many others have. I guess that kind of makes me a hypocrite doesn't it.
                Hey there buddy! You need to take it easy... I actually think you are going about this the wrong way. You'd rather go hungry and be homeless than sell MMO products? That's just silly.

                I don't see why everyone thinks bad of selling MMO products. Claims are fair if it's true right? If I made $23,000 in the month of July and created a product revealing exactly what I did to earn that and claim that I did in fact do it. What's so unethical about that?
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  So... yeah, um, there is more to this whole IM thang than selling how to make money online products. I know there are a lot (most) of newbies who may hit this site and get the wrong impression.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by gluckspilz View Post

                  Hey there buddy! You need to take it easy... I actually think you are going about this the wrong way. You'd rather go hungry and be homeless than sell MMO products? That's just silly.

                  I don't see why everyone thinks bad of selling MMO products. Claims are fair if it's true right? If I made $23,000 in the month of July and created a product revealing exactly what I did to earn that and claim that I did in fact do it. What's so unethical about that?
                  Unethical? Technically, no. Right? That's where I have my problems. It keeps feeding into the quick buck mentality where the only thing people look at is how much money they can make and how fast they can make it.

                  My worst product ever (sold 3 copies) was a masterful blueprint on how to start a business from the ground floor up. It left no stone unturned. I even printed out the table of contents in the sales letter.

                  When people saw how much work was involved, they ran for the hills.

                  I sold 3 copies, even though they could clearly see that it was all substance, no hype, real stuff that would actually build a legit business. The very things I did to build my business before it came crashing down on me.

                  I sold 3 copies.

                  Did I mention I sold 3 copies?

                  People don't want something that works if it means they have to DO work. They want the quick buck. So I got sucked into that mentality as a seller. But ultimately, here is what happens.

                  They buy the product, see that work is involved, and put it aside and look for the next shiny thing.

                  THAT is why I am against this way of marketing. It just perpetuates this constant "buy and do nothing" because the product turns out to be more work than it's worth to these people.

                  If you want, I'll even send the product to you. I'm sure it's still on my hard drive somewhere. You can see for yourself the quality. No, I didn't sell this one with all the bells and whistles. I tried to sell it on its merits.

                  Did I mention I sold 3 copies?

                  I never argued that the MMO niche wasn't a disaster because of this mentality. It wasn't the point of the thread.

                  But I guess the point of the thread doesn't really matter anymore does it.
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                  • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    My worst product ever (sold 3 copies) was a masterful blueprint on how to start a business from the ground floor up. It left no stone unturned. I even printed out the table of contents in the sales letter.

                    When people saw how much work was involved, they ran for the hills.
                    Aaahhhh you FINALLY come around and agree to my original point. See? when you remove the whole moral crusade thingy from your argument, it's easy to see the cold reality in its full glorious (and decadent) scope.

                    Allow me to quote one of my original posts in this thread, to which you vehemently disagreed with...

                    Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                    What you fail to address is that most new people coming to this forum are precisely looking for a short cut. They're not interested in real education (AKA hard work, think out of the box, business-like approach, etc), but a "system" to make a quick-buck. Therefore, other members (opportunists) cater to that very interest offering them those "systems".

                    It's like telling a smoker that smoking kills... pointless preach: he knows, and he still smokes.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                      Aaahhhh you FINALLY come around and agree to my original point. See? when you remove the whole moral crusade thingy from your argument, it's easy to see the cold reality in its full glorious (and decadent) scope.

                      Allow me to quote one of my original posts in this thread, to which you vehemently disagreed with...
                      Never argued with your initial premise entirely. I'd have to be an idiot not to realize that there are people looking for the magic pill. But I have to believe that there are people out there like me when I first started.

                      I was actually looking for a "job" that I could do online. Pay me for the work I do, that's all. When I realized those jobs were hard to come by, I honestly didn't know what the alternatives were. I had no idea what Internet marketing or the MMO niche were.

                      I have to believe that there are people like that who are maybe coming here for the first time who just want to know what their options are.

                      I am simply telling them that the definition of Internet marketing, if that's what they want to get into, doesn't mean they have to sell "how to make money" products, that they have other options.

                      How can you possibly argue that? Are you saying that they DON'T have other options or that nobody WANTS other options?

                      NOBODY?

                      I refuse to believe that.

                      There has to be one person who comes here for the first time who hasn't been brainwashed into thinking their only option is to sell the magic pill.
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              • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I have apologized.
                Steven,

                If that's the case, you have a unique definition of an apology.

                Putting that aside, what happened to all the talk of the new Steven just a few days ago in the off topic forum. I thought you were done with the negativity?

                Question...How has anything in this thread helped you get your new venture off the ground? Has the time invested in this thread had any positive impact on your business or life?

                <unsolicited advice>

                You may think I'm dumping on you too, but I'm not. If I were you I'd take a hiatus from the forum and do nothing but work on the new venture. It almost seems as if your participation here at this point is coming from a place of "misery loves company".

                Go work on your music site. If it succeeds, the misery is over (hopefully). If it fails, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, & throw all your effort at the next venture. The only thing I know for sure is that being argumentative and/or negative here on the forum will never end the misery.

                The person in the best position to help you is you. You have questions about traffic generation or marketing in general? Go to the library, read some blog posts, etc. Don't interact, learn and act. You WILL make mistakes. BIG DEAL. You'll be gaining experience. Venting frustrations and arguing on here won't gain you any experience.

                If you really don't give a **** what anyone thinks about you, it's time to start acting like it and quit hanging around here telling people. It's time for Steven to take care of Steven.
                </unsolicited advice>

                I really do wish you luck.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                  Steven,

                  If that's the case, you have a unique definition of an apology.

                  Putting that aside, what happened to all the talk of the new Steven just a few days ago in the off topic forum. I thought you were done with the negativity?

                  Question...How has anything in this thread helped you get your new venture off the ground? Has the time invested in this thread had any positive impact on your business or life?

                  <unsolicited advice>

                  You may think I'm dumping on you too, but I'm not. If I were you I'd take a hiatus from the forum and do nothing but work on the new venture. It almost seems as if your participation here at this point is coming from a place of "misery loves company".

                  Go work on your music site. If it succeeds, the misery is over (hopefully). If it fails, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, & throw all your effort at the next venture. The only thing I know for sure is that being argumentative and/or negative here on the forum will never end the misery.

                  The person in the best position to help you is you. You have questions about traffic generation or marketing in general? Go to the library, read some blog posts, etc. Don't interact, learn and act. You WILL make mistakes. BIG DEAL. You'll be gaining experience. Venting frustrations and arguing on here won't gain you any experience.

                  If you really don't give a **** what anyone thinks about you, it's time to start acting like it and quit hanging around here telling people. It's time for Steven to take care of Steven.
                  </unsolicited advice>

                  I really do wish you luck.
                  The reason I am not working on anything right now is because nobody is responding to my support requests. I am now waiting 4 days for a certain person to get back to me so I can set my shopping cart up so I can submit my product to Clickbank for approval. I won't mention any names because of rule #1 of this forum, but I'm very frustrated right now. Everything is done and ready to go. I just need a shopping cart that will work with Pitch Plus.

                  I started a thread in OT asking for help. One of the two problems has been solved but I am still waiting on the second one and honestly, the only person who can help me with that is the person who I will be buying the software from.

                  Until they get back to me, there is nothing I can do but waste time here.

                  In the meantime, I'm working on some new music just for my own enjoyment. But I can do nothing productive with my business until that one problem is solved.

                  It's frustrating when after 4 days people still don't get back to you.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Until they get back to me, there is nothing I can do but waste time here.

                    In the meantime, I'm working on some new music just for my own enjoyment. But I can do nothing productive with my business until that one problem is solved.
                    With all due respect...BULLSH*T!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                      With all due respect...BULLSH*T!
                      If that's how you see it, fine. But right now all I want to do is submit my product to Clickbank and get it approved. This should have been done 4 days ago. There are no excuses for my having to wait 4 days for a support request to be answered...none.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Where is everybody below when I need them?

                        http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ggestions.html

                        No, all people know how to do is criticize. I got ONE reply. I am stuck, need help and got ONE REPLY.

                        Maybe you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time here because nobody gives a shit.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                          1. They are busy with their own lives and businesses.

                          2. They are busy responding to your inane rants.

                          3. Get one thing ready to sell. If you can't use what you have then use E-Junkie.com. That will do everything you need from the looks of it. There are free trials out there where you don't have to pay to get started. You can host on S3 or they will host your downloads depending on the size. You can use CB Pitch Plus. It's good enough to get going.

                          Mark

                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          Where is everybody below when I need them?

                          http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ggestions.html

                          No, all people know how to do is criticize. I got ONE reply. I am stuck, need help and got ONE REPLY.

                          Maybe you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time here because nobody gives a shit.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                            1. They are busy with their own lives and businesses.

                            2. They are busy responding to your inane rants.

                            3. Get one thing ready to sell. If you can't use what you have then use E-Junkie.com. That will do everything you need from the looks of it. There are free trials out there where you don't have to pay to get started. You can host on S3 or they will host your downloads depending on the size. You can use CB Pitch Plus. It's good enough to get going.

                            Mark
                            OMG, that's what I'm trying to wrap my head around...what I can use to put this thing together. I need a shopping cart that will work with Clickbank, work with Pitch Plus to send my offer to my membership upsell and then also work with Optimize Member and Amazon S3 because I can no longer use my own hosting.

                            That's a lot of pieces that need to fit together. I am NOT technically savvy, which is why I came here in the first place.

                            One response from a certain person is all I need. I get the software, install it, and I'm done. I shouldn't have to scramble for other solutions at this stage. I am a previous buyer from this person. This week is the first time I've even contacted him in two years. I have never had this problem with him before and I'm starting to think something is terribly wrong because it's not like him.

                            In the meantime I'm stuck. Yeah, I could do research and all that other stuff but it doesn't get my product to Clickbank and approved. I need money. I need to get this thing out there and sold.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              You're all right about one thing. I am wasting my time here because I'm not going to get the help I need so I'm leaving.

                              There is no point in coming back. I have issues that I need to get resolved and it won't happen here.

                              Enjoy the rest of the thread.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                                Oh, you'll be back.

                                You always are, unfortunately.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                                Wow they are right. No good deed goes unpunished.

                                Mark

                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                You're all right about one thing. I am wasting my time here because I'm not going to get the help I need so I'm leaving.

                                There is no point in coming back. I have issues that I need to get resolved and it won't happen here.

                                Enjoy the rest of the thread.
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                              • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                You're all right about one thing. I am wasting my time here because I'm not going to get the help I need so I'm leaving.

                                There is no point in coming back. I have issues that I need to get resolved and it won't happen here.

                                Enjoy the rest of the thread.
                                There's help, and there's expecting people to do everything for you.
                                Do us all a favour and stop posting these tedious attention seeking threads.
                                Then you'll have another 40 hours a week to spend doing something yourself.
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                              • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                You're all right about one thing. I am wasting my time here because I'm not going to get the help I need so I'm leaving.

                                There is no point in coming back. I have issues that I need to get resolved and it won't happen here.

                                Enjoy the rest of the thread.
                                Thank god. This was a punishing thread to read from a serial crybaby who only sought attention to promote whatever you had in mind.

                                Maybe instead of trying to teach others how to do things you should actually learn how it works yourself so you don't have to rely on this behavior in the future.
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                              • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                You're all right about one thing. I am wasting my time here because I'm not going to get the help I need so I'm leaving.

                                There is no point in coming back. I have issues that I need to get resolved and it won't happen here.

                                Enjoy the rest of the thread.
                                Holy molly man, you're one drama queen arent you? You've managed to annoy a whole bunch of people simultaneously. That takes skills!

                                Here's something you might have missed: the Warrior Forum is not about you, nor anybody gives a damn about your problems. You truly need to get over yourself, badly...
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                                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                  Revised sig:

                                  On Hiatus From Forum - Will Return After All Work Completed - If You Need Me For Any Reason You Will Not Be Able To Reach Me Through Here
                                  Toss the edge of the cape over your shoulder as you exit stage left? No applause but... one can't have everything, can one?

                                  It's a shame - a nice person who just can't get out of his own way.
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                                  Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                    a nice person who just can't get out of his own way.
                                    A very nice person, who was pushed and provoked into "his own way", in several places, in this thread, IMO.

                                    I speak as one of the (currently) seventeen members who thanked Steve for his valued original post, yesterday, on the previous page but one (in my case, at least, never expecting the thread to become a slow-moving train-wreck).

                                    This thread didn't show the forum "at its best".

                                    You win some; you lose some. Steven is big enough to take even all this stuff in his stride.

                                    .
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                                    • Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                      Steve is big enough to take even all this stuff in his stride.
                                      Apparently Steve is big -headed- enough to get bankrupt despite the numerous GREAT advises people have tried to share his way over the years. Yet, once and time again, he keeps making the same mistakes over and over and, inevitably, yielding the same devastating results.

                                      About 1 month ago I took some screenshots of his music website, trying to educate him as of why his site is terrible, and offering tips on how to improve conversions. Guess what? not a single "Thanks" from "big enough" Steve.

                                      I say this slowly: I've done very well from my online ventures, he's bankrupt from his online ventures, and I gave him FREE advise. You would think that he'd devour the tips and work on them like there's no tomorrow, right? Not... a... single.... thanks... or.... a.... single.... action.... taken. Only excuses and yet more drama...

                                      He's at the mess he's at because of his own fault and, possibly, lack of intelligence. Oh well, his loss (and ours, since we get to read his drama threads over and over here at WF).
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                                        Banned
                                        Just to comment on the bankrupt stuff, a business owner going bankrupt isn't an uncommon occurrence.

                                        Many very successful business people have gone through a bad period where they had to start over. I have a few times myself and I believe you learn much more from these periods than you do in your successful ones.

                                        The reason I mention this is because it's ok to fail as long as you learn, dust yourself off and work yourself out of the hole to more success.

                                        The methods for quick cash can be used to further your business. The problem is people basing their whole strategy on a method or technique. It dries up and you are left to wonder what other method you can try to get back to being profitable.

                                        That is a recipe for disaster. Cashflow is king, in business, as far as I'm concerned. Plan it out.

                                        Steven (I'm not picking on Steven just using him as an example and he would agree) put all of his eggs into one particular method. That method consistently made him 6 figures for 8 or so years. A very good run. Where he failed, in my opinion, was not diversifying from that method into other sources of traffic. Even when his traffic dried up, it would have been quicker for him to learn how to use new traffic sources to push customer to existing sales funnels instead of starting totally over in a new market.

                                        I believe he did that for personal reasons but I use that as an example.

                                        Another example I will use myself. I put all of my money into a software project that became way to big in scope. What can I say, I have delusions of grandeur. haha

                                        My own fault. That blew through my existing cash and I had to come up with more products to sell in order to continue with this project. Prior to this, I pulled a few products I was selling and worked exclusively on this long term project because that was were my future product line was heading.

                                        When I pulled my existing products, I should have immediately replaced them with new products. I didn't and cashflow ended up drying up. It took quite a while to get there (this is where your list comes in), but it did happen.

                                        What I should have done is to replace the lost cashflow with new cashflow immediately and also continue to build my buyers lists. You need to consistently be adding to your lists. I can't stress that enough.

                                        These mistakes can bankrupt you but can also give you a learning lesson that can push you into much more success and stability.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
                                          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                                          Many very successful business people have gone through a bad period where they had to start over. I have a few times myself and I believe you learn much more from these periods than you do in your successful ones.

                                          The reason I mention this is because it's ok to fail as long as you learn, dust yourself off and work yourself out of the hole to more success.
                                          Wise words, Thomas. Not to mention, the people who do go bankrupt or hit rock bottom, but are able to learn from it and achieve later success as a result, are often the most inspiring to others who may be struggling or in a similar situation.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                      A very nice person, who was pushed and provoked into "his own way", in several places, in this thread, IMO.

                                      I speak as one of the (currently) seventeen members who thanked Steve for his valued original post, yesterday, on the previous page but one (in my case, at least, never expecting the thread to become a slow-moving train-wreck).

                                      This thread didn't show the forum "at its best".

                                      You win some; you lose some. Steven is big enough to take even all this stuff in his stride.

                                      .
                                      I don't see it as Steven being pushed or provoked.

                                      He had a valid point coupled with the wrong approach. And his inability to engage in a civilized debate is what derailed the thread.

                                      People offered differing but equally valid points and Steven chose to respond as if there had been a line drawn in the sand.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author M3C
                                        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                                        I don't see it as Steven being pushed or provoked.

                                        He had a valid point coupled with the wrong approach. And his inability to engage in a civilized debate is what derailed the thread.

                                        People offered differing but equally valid points and Steven chose to respond as if there had been a line drawn in the sand.
                                        I think his buttons were pushed and he reacted (badly).

                                        It happens.

                                        I had to leave the thread, it felt like bullying had taken over from constructive criticism in places.

                                        I didn't want to add to that fire.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
                                          Originally Posted by M3C View Post

                                          I think his buttons were pushed and he reacted (badly).

                                          It happens.

                                          I had to leave the thread, it felt like bullying had taken over from constructive criticism in places.

                                          I didn't want to add to that fire.

                                          I didn't see it that way. But I couldn't tell you if there's a history between Steven and the people he reacted to. So perhaps there is more to it.

                                          As for the bullying comment, I can see where you could get that impression. From the tone of those comments I'd imagine there is more to it than just being mean for the heck of it.

                                          I still wish he would have reacted differently though. There was some good discussion scattered throughout the thread.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                                        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

                                        I don't see it as Steven being pushed or provoked.

                                        He had a valid point coupled with the wrong approach. And his inability to engage in a civilized debate is what derailed the thread.

                                        People offered differing but equally valid points and Steven chose to respond as if there had been a line drawn in the sand.
                                        ^^^ Agreed.

                                        His approach was all wrong and his responses were inflammatory.

                                        But beyond that, his intention was evident - at least it was to me. He wanted to get all of the hype and the attention he could, and he did just that. The problem with doing that is when the attention and hype backfires because of how and what the overall messaging is - which was delivered in a very "Listen to me, I know better than you" manner on a subject that most experienced marketers know as simply common sense.

                                        If he had started a thread on some unique, fresh topic - he might have been able to pull off his "Come children, listen to me" style messaging. Instead he produced fluff and took an attitude about it.

                                        It was the obvious intent behind what he was doing that caused me to dig into who he was and what he had previously established about himself when I discovered that the guy is a complete ass-hat.

                                        And to be honest Alexa, of all people, I would have expected you to see through this and not put yourself out there to defend it.

                                        The guy is a clown and he got only some of what he deserved, probably in the interest of keeping things as civil as possible on the forum. In my view, it showed the forum's restraint at its best, not worst.

                                        And 17 thanks says nothing other than that 17 people agreed with a common sense point of view.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author fin
                                          Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post


                                          And 17 thanks says nothing other than that 17 people agreed with a common sense point of view.
                                          Or 17 people couldn't see a blatant sales pitch for his dance tracks if it slapped them on the face.

                                          I thought I was imagining things as why would someone with a music site be trying to spam their sig in the main forum?

                                          Once his product is ready be prepared for a lot more of these threads.

                                          I hope he finds success (AND FAST), but I also hope his marketing plan stretches further than spamming WF.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                                            Banned
                                            Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

                                            And 17 thanks says nothing other than that 17 people agreed with a common sense point of view.
                                            That's true, of course, Matthew: one of my points, in posting at all in this train-wreck, was precisely to mention that the OP had expressed a common-sense point of view with which many people agreed.

                                            Originally Posted by fin View Post

                                            Or 17 people couldn't see a blatant sales pitch for his dance tracks if it slapped them on the face.
                                            That never occurred to me, certainly, and maybe not to 16 others, either. Even looking back at it, now, that still isn't my interpretation of it, at all, to be honest. Not that it matters, now.

                                            Originally Posted by fin View Post

                                            Once his product is ready be prepared for a lot more of these threads.
                                            I think not, Jamie. My guess is that Steven won't be back, at least for quite a long time. His current intention is not to come back at all (he's told me as much: I appreciate that some will say he's said that before, but I think he means it, this time. "Just saying").

                                            Originally Posted by fin View Post

                                            I hope he finds success (AND FAST)
                                            So do I. I think it's very likely, too. And perhaps even that his not spending any time here may increase the chances of that.

                                            Originally Posted by fin View Post

                                            I also hope his marketing plan stretches further than spamming WF.
                                            For the record, I think there was absolutely no intention of that, at all, and that if it had ever occurred to him that anyone might imagine that, he'd have removed his sig-file from the post initiating the thread.)

                                            I see, of course, that none of these points matters much, now, anyway.

                                            I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion (I sometimes do that when I post here, admittedly - but not this time: simply mentioning my own. )

                                            We all have biases, perhaps, whether we admit them or not (perhaps even "whether we acknowledge them or not"!). Mine, here, is probably that throughout my long, severe, distressing and continuing illness, Steven - in spite of all his own difficulties - has consistently been kinder and more supportive to me than anyone else in the Warrior Forum (and believe me: that's really saying something, because I've had huge support, friendship and kindness, collectively, through this forum, and I feel perpetually guilty at acknowledging it so little simply because I don't want my p.m. in-box to burst and for "replies" to become a full-time job! ). Apart from that, I'm replying mostly because I didn't want it to look like I was completely ignoring direct responses to my post above - that's all.

                                            .
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                            • Profile picture of the author fin
                              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                              In the meantime I'm stuck. Yeah, I could do research and all that other stuff but it doesn't get my product to Clickbank and approved. I need money. I need to get this thing out there and sold.
                              This isn't going to end well.

                              I'm not even going to mention BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS, DRIVING TRAFFIC TO YOUR SITE, DOING MORE RESEARCH, or a number of other things you can be doing that will actually help you sell your products because someone has already mentioned them.

                              No, there is no point in mentioning them, so I won't mention them and I have no intention of mentioning them at all.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          Where is everybody below when I need them?

                          http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ggestions.html

                          No, all people know how to do is criticize. I got ONE reply. I am stuck, need help and got ONE REPLY.

                          Maybe you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time here because nobody gives a shit.
                          In yet another one of your attention grabbing rants, you opined that the "old Steve" burned a lot of bridges around here because you were so rude to people, yada yada yada ... and that you can't undo that blah blah blah ...

                          I'm not seeing a lot of difference between the old Steve and the new Steve. Stop whining, get your problems solved and get on with business. Flaming people who are used to being flamed by you isn't going to get your product on Clickbank.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          Where is everybody below when I need them?

                          http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ggestions.html

                          No, all people know how to do is criticize. I got ONE reply. I am stuck, need help and got ONE REPLY.

                          Maybe you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time here because nobody gives a shit.
                          Man, Steven, that sounds pretty bad. You may want to reread this after a break. I do know I spent a lot of time helping you with a javascript problem within the past week. I never even got a thank you which is fine because I like to help people. Even so, this post comes off very badly.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Until they get back to me, there is nothing I can do but waste time here.

                    In the meantime, I'm working on some new music just for my own enjoyment. But I can do nothing productive with my business until that one problem is solved.
                    I thought you were in a bind and you were trying to dig yourself out with 14 hour days? There is NOTHING that you need to be working on?

                    What about working on getting traffic to your site even though you don't have all the technicalities worked out yet? None of that technical stuff matters one iota without traffic. After you get all the technical mumbo jumbo fixed you will still have to wait for traffic. Why not start now? No one is going to get to your site the first few days much less want to buy and can't because some button doesn't point the wrong way.

                    What about building relationships in the music industry?

                    What about research?

                    What about writing the first few newsletter issues that you said before you had no time for?

                    What about promoting your PLR WSO?

                    This is my therapy.
                    But there is no need to make the rest of us need it just because you are having a bad couple days.

                    Nearly every thread lately turns into a dump on Steven Wagenheim thread. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? That doesn't happen to me or I'd guess the top 1000 posters nearly every time they write a post.

                    There is something wrong with that - surely you must realize that either the hundreds of people that have responded to your threads are all wrong, all negative, all out to get you or you still have some negativity to overcome.

                    Seriously Steven it gets old for those that are trying to help out where we can. Really, really, really old. Especially when you routinely dump on the very people that you need help from - people that hang out in this forum.

                    Mark
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      You posted a complaint about DLGuard - saying it had been 3 days SINCE YOU POSTED ON THEIR FORUM - and Sam hasn't answered.

                      Why would post on their forum rather than submitting a ticket to Sam's help desk?
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  It's a formula thread - post a rant or opinion or lecture that can be linked to "what I'm doing now, what I'm going to do, what I used to do".

                  It's like scenes from a play where the plot is contentious drama and then the mea culpa followed by promises of a new beginning.

                  Or this one:

                  GEICO Words Can Really Hurt You Commercial
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              • Profile picture of the author Cali16
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I have apologized.
                Really??? Where? You didn't say anything in this thread that remotely resembled a sincere apology (or even an insincere one). You condescendingly lectured, ranted, sulked, insulted multiple people, made endless excuses for your childish behavior, and then, when you got called out for saying things that simply weren't true, as well as for your arrogant, self-serving behavior, you acted like a spoiled 5 y/o and stomped off. Like you've done many times before.
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          • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


            And with all that, I was lucky if I made 30 sales with a WSO. I did not get rich off this stuff.
            But probably a bit richer than the 30 that bought your WSO
            so I really don't know how you have the cheek to start a thread like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Ask Allen Says whether or not internet marketing is a niche.

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author M3C
    Can't remember the last time I ever saw or heard anybody saying IM is ONLY about selling make money products.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    Internet marketing is nothing more than an advertising medium used to sell products and services.
    Unless it's the market that the marketer chooses to work in. Further more, MMO could then be one of the submarkets before you drilled down into an actual niche.

    My point though is that your initial thesis is flawed because there is an 'Act' and a 'Market that the act is carried out on.'

    Which of course is "[..where any of that has anything to do with "how to make money online" or "ripping off noobs" or "scam".]"

    So - you're only in part correct, but once you deviate into the concept that they are completely unrelated you're simply wrong. The truth is that "Internet Marketing [CAN BE] Selling How To Make Money Products" - which completely invalidates the point of your post.

    And I'm only doing this because I can't unsee a page and a half of garbage. This thread is utter crap created and spoken from a desperate, attention seeking perspective.

    But it was rather entertaining to look up your history. I see you have a pattern of such behavior. Need a new audience for a product launch or blog you plan to release or something? Maybe you just want a new 'following?'

    Maybe you just want to relaunch the "Honest Income Program" and a great way to do that would be to build an audience on WarriorForum by positioning yourself as a 'Straight Shooter' or some other kind of garbage.

    Either way, I'm just putting my finger on what others here didn't - and that comes down to intention.

    PS - It's funny to watch you rant on about IM and MMO when you had a product in the IM/MMO niche under your name.
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    Lol,
    People that make up stories need a very good memory.
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    Oh look, it's one of these threads again..
    Signature

    :)

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    • This thread reminds me of a story...

      Lawyers (marketers) should never ask (post) a Georgia grandma (in the WaFo) a question (in my opinion a self-posturing thread) if they aren't prepared for the answer (if they aren't prepared how things could turn out for them)...

      In a trial, a Southern small-town prosecuting attorney called his first witness, a grandmotherly, elderly woman to the stand. He approached her and asked, "Mrs. Jones, do you know me?"

      She responded, "Why, yes, I do know you, Mr. Williams. I've known you since you were a boy, and frankly, you've been a big disappointment to me. You lie, you cheat on your wife, and you manipulate people and talk about them behind their backs. You think you're a big shot when you haven't the brains to realize you'll never amount to anything more than a two-bit paper pusher. Yes, I know you."

      The lawyer was stunned. Not knowing what else to do, he pointed across the room and asked, "Mrs. Jones, do you know the defense attorney?"

      She again replied, "Why yes, I do. I've known Mr. Bradley since he was a youngster, too. He's lazy, bigoted, and he has a drinking problem. He can't build a normal relationship with anyone, and his law practice is one of the worst in the entire state. Not to mention he cheated on his wife with three different women. One of them was your wife. Yes, I know him."

      The defense attorney nearly died...

      The judge asked both counselors to approach the bench and, in a very quiet voice, said, "If either of you idiots asks her if she knows me, I'll send you both to the electric chair"...

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    • Profile picture of the author imogenhobbs
      An internet marketing course is still a course... whether it's a golf course, a yoga course, a fitness/weight loss course, a diet course...

      I think OP is missing the point really.

      Sure, internet marketing is a "method", but even during the period of direct mail (and I'm pretty sure there still is), people have been running "make money" businesses. It's a legitimate business on its own as well. It's just "niched" from the market of "making money".

      I don't think people need to attack the OP and I certainly don't think the OP is in a good position to try and down the "IM" marketers either.

      lol there's so much money in other markets as well. I wouldn't bother convincing people who can't look out of their wells and have no common sense to pick up marketing principles before starting up a business really. From my (rather short) experience, many people believe what they want to believe.


      Imogen
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Enough!

    I am sick and tired of all these stupid threads.

    "Can Internet Marketing Be Used To Sell Legitimate Products?"

    "Is Internet Marketing A Scam?"

    "Are There Honest Internet Marketing Opportunities?"

    Internet marketing is nothing more than an advertising medium used to sell products and services.

    Amazon (various products) uses Internet marketing.
    Stillwell Audio (music processing products) uses Internet marketing
    East West Quantum Leap (virtual sound generation products) uses Internet marketing
    Healing Natural Oils (health related products) uses Internet marketing

    Here's a nice definition of Internet marketing that I found online.

    "Also called online marketing, it is the process of promoting a brand, products or services over the Internet. Its broad scope includes email marketing, electronic customer relationship management and any promotional activities that are done via wireless media."

    Nowhere in that definition are the words "make money products exclusively", "scam" or "take advantage of noobs."

    So for the love of God can we PLEASE stop with the stereotypes and nonsense?

    I still do Internet marketing. I have a royalty free music site and will be releasing a dance music pack for people who like to exercise to dance music.

    Please point out where any of that has anything to do with "how to make money online" or "ripping off noobs" or "scam".

    Enough is enough!

    This man speaks the truth...

    Internet marketing in 2nd grade English means marketing on the internet.
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    On topic,

    People come here to learn how to make money online. People who sell MMO products come here to sell products to the newbies.

    It's a match made it heaven and nothing is going to change.

    There are other forums where people can go to learn about making money outside MMO, or there are sub-sections in this forum where it happens every day.

    Maybe you could have tried educating the newbies for making those threads instead of scalding them. I bet they were completely clueless when they wrote them, but in a few years they'll be making a full-time income online.

    You still can't know what you've not been taught. Everyone is stupid about something,
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    • Originally Posted by fin View Post

      People come here to learn how to make money online. People who sell MMO products come here to sell products to the newbies.

      It's a match made it heaven and nothing is going to change.
      The whole thread summarized perfectly in 2 sentences
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  • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
    This thread has escalated quite quickly.

    I think the moral of the story is... as marketers. We sell, period!

    What exactly do we sell? Anything and everything to put food on the table?

    Ethical or unethical? Does it matter? All digital products come with a refund by law anyway.

    Basically guys! Basically! Let's all take a step back and let's start marketing shall we?

    That is money making activity
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    This is nothing new to MMO lol

    It's about the info product business in general.

    I used to blog in a certain niche that was as far away from making money as you can get. From speaking to people who read my blog and from knowing about the industry in general 99% of people won't put in the work.

    Weight loss niche? Walk down the street and tell me how many slim people you see.

    As someone mentioned earlier, most people buy products for the endorphin rush. No big deal because they get their mental orgasm for a while just like people who read fiction books.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      This is nothing new to MMO lol

      It's about the info product business in general.

      I used to blog in a certain niche that was as far away from making money as you can get. From speaking to people who read my blog and from knowing about the industry in general 99% of people won't put in the work.

      Weight loss niche? Walk down the street and tell me how many slim people you see.

      As someone mentioned earlier, most people buy products for the endorphin rush. No big deal because they get their mental orgasm for a while just like people who read fiction books.
      Then maybe I'm weird. I actually buy things that I need and use.

      The other day I purchased a $500 piece of software for music production. Spectrasonics Omnisphere. You can look it up.

      You damn well better believe I'm going to use it.

      Every MMO book I ever bought (all 3 of them) I used. In fact, the very first one I ever bought made me an average of $1,200 a month because of it back in 2003. That was my first taste of any kind of success online and it was because of the book I bought. I followed every instruction in it to the letter.

      So am I the oddball? If so, it's a sad commentary on our world in general.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Then maybe I'm weird. I actually buy things that I need and use.

        The other day I purchased a $500 piece of software for music production. Spectrasonics Omnisphere. You can look it up.

        You damn well better believe I'm going to use it.

        Every MMO book I ever bought (all 3 of them) I used. In fact, the very first one I ever bought made me an average of $1,200 a month because of it back in 2003. That was my first taste of any kind of success online and it was because of the book I bought. I followed every instruction in it to the letter.

        So am I the oddball? If so, it's a sad commentary on our world in general.
        Actually, it isn't uncommon for people to purchase stuff and never open it. They fully expect to open it, read through it and implement it at a later date. That date, for many, never happens.

        They just don't want to miss an opportunity to get something on a discount or whatever scarcity is being used at the time.

        Imagine coming across a "How I Earned $135, 679.53 selling pooper scoopers within 3.5 days without having to pick up one turd".

        "Get it now before the price increases within the next 24 hours".

        You're thinking, damn... I was going to set up a pooper scooper ecommerce site but not now. I better get this before the price increases.

        PURCHASE > DOWNLOAD and back to the forum.

        Oh look, a "How To Make $10,456.76 a Day with Funny Penguin Pictures".

        Damn, I was just wondering how I could use all of these penguin pictures I took last year. I better get that one.

        PURCHASE > DOWNLOAD and back to the forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author gluckspilz
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Then maybe I'm weird. I actually buy things that I need and use.

        The other day I purchased a $500 piece of software for music production. Spectrasonics Omnisphere. You can look it up.

        You damn well better believe I'm going to use it.

        Every MMO book I ever bought (all 3 of them) I used. In fact, the very first one I ever bought made me an average of $1,200 a month because of it back in 2003. That was my first taste of any kind of success online and it was because of the book I bought. I followed every instruction in it to the letter.

        So am I the oddball? If so, it's a sad commentary on our world in general.
        Mate, you are in fact a legend!

        Even though I taking action is a massive factor to success. It comes a time where I really to buy products because I just feel like it... But yeah, the previous post nailed it. It's not the MMO products that is the problem..

        It's INFO products in general. Not to mention gym memberships where people pay and never go.
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  • It is a good start and yes IM is a method for promoting the things through the net.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ferzy
    The fact that you even have to say that internet marketing is not selling how to make money products is a sad state of affairs, representative of how the original word lost its meaning.

    The good news is that outside internet marketing forums, internet marketing is not often correlated with how to make money online products.Most of the people have no idea what that is. Arguably better this way (?).
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Software is different, at least for the most part. I'm sure some people ever use software they buy, but most people buy it for a specific task.

    It's not that people don't want to achieve the results in the info books they buy, but like you said most people aren't prepared to put in the work because they can't build habits.

    One of my products was related to dreaming and all they would need to do to become conscious inside their dreams was to, A) meditate for about 15-20 minutes at night (while they're already in their bed doing nothing else), and, B) write down a few sentences about their dreams when they woke up in the morning.

    Most people just wouldn't do it and would come up with every excuse in the book. I particularly like the one about life getting in the way. Not sure how life can get in the way when you're already in bed doing nothing and during the first few minutes after you wake up in the morning.

    Life didn't get in the way. Some people are just lazy. I'm lazy too, but not that lazy lol
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    I also started an online coaching site for a while aimed at getting people quick weight loss results.

    This was the only guy who followed through with my plan (it was actually coaching and not an info product) and these results took less than 8 weeks.



    Everyone else started running for the hills when they seen what is involved.

    Guys want to get a six pack before their holiday so they can get more notches on their bedpost right? NO, they just think they do until they realize they have to do some work.

    I could have just started selling info products and leaving people to it, but didn't because they would just be wasting their money on a dream.
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  • Absolutely right, online marketing is an ART, nowadays we see that some real newbies that don't make even one penny online come and teach some other people how to make money. NO SENSE AT ALL
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    So you have to create a whole thread about it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    Drama is an understatement
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  • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
    Your DLGuard/OP2/S3 integration issue is a rather simple fix/solution (whatever you want to call it).

    ... but I have no inclination to help you because you are so damn self-absorbed and annoying.

    It seems like a day or two cannot go by without a "woe is me" thread from you. Get over yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    Easy, easy...

    OK, so Steve got frustrated and angry, and made a mistake of "over-ranting". Sometimes stuff like that happens. Just part of life.

    I'm sure many of us here are upset, but I think maybe this thread should be closed...
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  • Profile picture of the author visimedia
    there will be people who feel being taken advantage of, but I think that small number of people won't succeed... It's actually being trained, learn something from people who have been there done that... lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    This was an interesting (and very bizarre) thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
      Wow! Why all the vitriol, Steve?

      I totally agree with your original points. There's much about the MMO niche and the WF that I despise. There are a lot of questions/comments that, in my opinion, are truly stupid.

      Like: "Can Internet Marketing Be Used To Sell Legitimate Products?"

      Uh...duh! Do Amazon, eBay, Zappos, Netflix, Hulu, etc. ring a bell????

      Yes, this "industry" has it's own jargon, like all industries. But some of it is just truly inane.

      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Ask Allen Says whether or not internet marketing is a niche.

      George Wright
      Good point. But Internet marketing is not a niche. Make money online (MMO) is a niche. And Allen Says was in the MMO niche.

      Semantics? Maybe. But it's still a valid point.

      As I pointed out earlier, if you're selling a fitness program on TV, you're not in the television marketing niche. You're in the fitness niche.

      If you go to a seminar to learn how to make more money with TV ads (selling your fitness program on TV), you're not going to come out of the seminar saying "I'm a TV marketer!"

      Likewise, too many Warriors seem to think a website = a business.

      Beep! Wrong answer! A website does not a business make. A business has a website.

      Newbies and so many Warriors are so turned around it's no wonder they can't make money!

      Or how about the "brilliant" answers to questions like "What's the best way to make money?" and someone says "Listbuilding!" as if listbuilding is a business in and of itself. The person giving the answer has no idea just how ignorant he is. Worse, he's put his ignorance on display for all to see.

      All of that to say your original points are completely valid. And I agree with them.

      BUT... why did this thread have to degenerate into a "Woe is me!" thread? Why the childish rant, disrespect, bad language and overall unprofessionalism?

      We all have bad days and need to rant. But doing it on a public forum like this is not the way to do it.

      It's ok to choose a different niche (music), but you don't need to criticize your own MMO products/efforts. You legitimately made money online. You legitimately sold MMO products. Where's the problem? I don't think you were intentionally scamming anyone.

      There are A LOT of very successful people who have gone bankrupt and/or gotten into BIG trouble with their businesses. Frank Kern. Donald Trump. And that's just for starters.

      So don't denigrate yourself or others selling MMO info. As Thomas Belknap said, your problem is easy to spot: you relied on ONE marketing method. Controlled by Google, no less. A truly STUPID move if there ever was one. But one that's easily fixed.

      And your "failure" doesn't invalidate your previous success.

      You could have chosen to add other marketing methods, but you chose to go into a different business altogether. That's totally ok, but STOP WHINING!

      As for MMO info...

      Originally Posted by imogenhobbs View Post

      An internet marketing course is still a course... whether it's a golf course, a yoga course, a fitness/weight loss course, a diet course...

      Sure, internet marketing is a "method", but even during the period of direct mail (and I'm pretty sure there still is), people have been running "make money" businesses. It's a legitimate business on its own as well. It's just "niched" from the market of "making money".

      .....

      I wouldn't bother convincing people who can't look out of their wells and have no common sense to pick up marketing principles before starting up a business really. From my (rather short) experience, many people believe what they want to believe.
      This is SUCH an awesome perspective! So true...

      There's so much skepticism directed at MMO courses. Understandable, given how many scammers there are.

      But it seems nobody believes anything anymore. All MMO marketers are tarred and feathered with the same brush, the "bad guy" just by virtue of selling MMO info.

      Entrepreneur magazine started out as short reports on how to make money with different kinds of businesses. It evolved into Entrepreneur, a long-running and respected magazine.

      There are TONS of fantastic IM courses out there from very reputable people:

      1. Elevate from Ali Brown.
      2. Product Launch Formula from Jeff Walker
      3. 6-Figure Teleseminar Secrets from Lisa Sasevich
      4. Client Attraction from Fabienne Fredrickson
      5. Magnetic Marketing from Dan Kennedy

      And on and on.

      YOUR job is to sort through all of the available info to find the one that suits your needs. We've all gotten "scammed" at some point, but I can't honestly remember the last time I was scammed.

      "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." If you keep getting scammed multiple times, YOU are to blame. We all need to learn how to sniff out the genuine article and buy the real McCoy. YOU are responsible for your buying decisions and no one else. Period.

      Imogen is right: people will believe what they want to believe. Unfortunately, we can't help those people.

      And as for having nothing to do until someone gets back to you:

      Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

      With all due respect...BULLSH*T!
      Amen!

      I had a LOT of problems with web designers and wasted a lot of money on them. (Including some Warriors who shall remain nameless. But suffice it to say, I will NEVER hire another Warrior for design again. Their skills just aren't up to snuff.) I couldn't get a good web designer and felt held hostage by them. I wasted a lot of money.

      My business coach got firm with me and basically told me to stop whining and playing the victim. *I* was in charge and I needed to believe that I would find a designer with the skills I needed who would also conduct themselves professionally.

      In the meantime, I could do X, Y, and Z until I found that person. In other words, stop whining and take control!

      I finally DID get some awesome designs: a gorgeous logo from 99Designs.com (where I WASN'T held hostage by a single designer), and then a gorgeous web design from a design AGENCY (not a Joe Blow freelancer wannabe) that was recommended by a colleague I trusted.

      Fire that person and get a different system if you need to. Maybe get a system that's used by more people so it's not so specialized?

      In other words, find a way to reduce your dependence on others as much as possible. You're making the same mistake you did earlier by relying on only article marketing: You're ceding control to someone else.

      STOP THAT!

      If you have to switch entire systems, then do it. yes, it's a huge headache up front. But it will save you untold headaches later!

      Stop playing the victim. Man up, make the hard decisions and then move forward.

      If you keep having problems with outsourcers, YOU are to blame because YOU hired them/bought their system!

      Originally Posted by CarolK View Post

      I don't know about others, but I know that I appreciate fellow Warriors like yourself Michelle, that share their experience and information that can only be attained by actually doing the work. I seek out posts like that and I value the time it took and take notes. I also see the posts as an inspiration to keep going and my success is just around the corner!

      So thanks to you Michelle and all the other Warriors helping on the forum, you are appreciated.

      Carol
      Thanks so much Carol. It's nice to now I'm reaching SOMEONE.


      Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post


    Good point. But Internet marketing is not a niche. Make money online (MMO) is a niche. And Allen Says was in the MMO niche.

    Semantics? Maybe. But it's still a valid point.

    As I pointed out earlier, if you're selling a fitness program on TV, you're not in the television marketing niche. You're in the fitness niche.

    If you go to a seminar to learn how to make more money with TV ads (selling your fitness program on TV), you're not going to come out of the seminar saying "I'm a TV marketer!"

    Or how about the "brilliant" answers to questions like "What's the best way to make money?" and someone says "Listbuilding!" as if listbuilding is a business in and of itself. The person giving the answer has no idea just how ignorant he is. Worse, he's put his ignorance on display for all to see.
    If Allen Says himself came here and said "I was not in the Internet Marketing Niche," I would respectfully say to him, "Yes you were."

    With all due respect to those who don't agree, I say...

    His Secret site was/is? Warriors of Internet Marketing. He taught Internet Marketing And Forum Marketing (another niche) in his eBooks.

    When one "Teaches" a subject, that subject is their niche, although their student may use the knowledge to be in an entirely different niche, such as MMO, selling "real" items or offering services.

    To use some of your examples above. If you are selling a fitness program on TV, you say "you are not in the TV Marketing niche" I agree, you are a fitness trainer and fitness is your niche. However, If I taught you and others how to Market on TV my niche is TV Marketing. I have nothing to do with anything but the TV marketing of your niche, using my niche, TV Marketing.

    If I facilitate your fitness marketing on TV and for someone else eSigs and for someone else their MMO product and for someone else Their Church I am a TV Marketer. I'm not in the Fitness, eSig, MMO or Religion niches/business. I'm a TV Marketer.

    To quote Wikipedia, "Guthy-Renker is a Santa Monica, California based direct-response marketing company." Direct-Response marketing is their niche and they do it for and teach it to others for many different people's products/niches.

    When someone says "Internet Marketing is not a business" or "Internet Marketing is not a niche." I say, "Maybe not for you, however, it is for some." Not semantics, just a fact.

    Oh, one more thing. You said.

    "Or how about the "brilliant" answers to questions like "What's the best way to make money?" and someone says "Listbuilding!" as if listbuilding is a business in and of itself. The person giving the answer has no idea just how ignorant he is. Worse, he's put his ignorance on display for all to see." Now that was mean. (warding off flames) LOL,

    What about Igor and others in his business? If you believe the reported numbers (and even if you don't the obvious numbers are big enough to prove this) List building is one of his niches.

    Having said that, I certainly realize, when most say, "List building," they are not saying to start a business like Igor's. I realize that they are being helpful stating Laconically the fact that a list can be a great asset to your business.

    Anyone with a little research skill (even if it only means using the search function of this forum) can take a short answer like "list building," "start a membership site," "post your offer link in your sig" and find a great amount of valuable info on "how to."

    Q: How can I make money

    A: Build a list

    Research: Google, How do I make money with an eMail list.

    Info Seller: Read how an ordinary person makes an extraordinary income using his email list. Read, Build Your List And Never Be Broke Again, By Internet Millionaire _______________.

    Q: How do I control my diabetes?

    A: Eat right.

    Research: Google, what's a good diet for a diabetic?

    Info Seller: Read Dr. Smith's book. How to care for your diabetes. Or read, How I eat what I want and keep my sugar under control by John Q. Diabetic.

    For those without the desire or skill to "look it up," Info Sellers fill a need.

    Here on the Warrior Forum just trying to be helpful while maybe at the same time trying to get a little sig exposure (we Internet Marketers have been known to do that) shouldn't warrant being called ignorant sounding or putting our ignorance on display for all to see.

    Putting my thoughts out there for all to see

    George Wright
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      If you are selling a fitness program on TV, you say "you are not in the TV Marketing niche" I agree, you are a fitness trainer and fitness is your niche. However, If I taught you and others how to Market on TV my niche is TV Marketing. I have nothing to do with anything but the TV marketing of your niche, using my niche, TV Marketing.

      If I facilitate your fitness marketing on TV and for someone else eSigs and for someone else their MMO product and for someone else Their Church I am a TV Marketer. I'm not in the Fitness, eSig, MMO or Religion niches/business. I'm a TV Marketer.

      To quote Wikipedia, "Guthy-Renker is a Santa Monica, California based direct-response marketing company." Direct-Response marketing is their niche and they do it for and teach it to others for many different people's products/niches.
      I totally agree with you here. You "get" the difference. A LOT of newbies and Warriors don't. Too many slap up a dog training (or whatever niche) ebook and say/think they're in the "IM niche."


      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      "Or how about the "brilliant" answers to questions like "What's the best way to make money?" and someone says "Listbuilding!" as if listbuilding is a business in and of itself. The person giving the answer has no idea just how ignorant he is. Worse, he's put his ignorance on display for all to see." Now that was mean. (warding off flames) LOL,

      What about Igor and others in his business? If you believe the reported numbers (and even if you don't the obvious numbers are big enough to prove this) List building is one of his niches.
      Only if he's TEACHING listbuilding.

      And yes, my comment WAS (at least a bit) mean.

      I don't generally come here and rant, make "mean" comments" or threaten to leave forever and exit stage left in a blaze of glory.

      I generally keep my snarkier comments to myself. But I see SO MUCH misinformation/partial information that I really have to bite my tongue sometimes.

      I see the "listbuilding" comment SO much. However:

      1. This is often the ONLY comment made to a complete newbie asking a very general question like "How can I make money online?"

      There's NO context or further explanation given, rendering the answer virtually worthless to the OP. And that breeds frustration.

      2. The comment is often a case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

      That is, the commenter knows not much more than "listbuilding." He can't give context, reasons why it's important, how listbuilding fits into the bigger picture, any more specifics/details about HOW to do it, etc. As I said, it's often presented as a business in and of itself, which it's not. It's a fundamental marketing activity for ALL businesses, regardless of what business you're in. But it's not a business.

      Essentially, he's merely parroting the answer without understanding it.

      And it makes me want to SCREAM when I see that, because it only confuses the OP even more! I feel bad for them.

      Yes, my comment was harsh, but that was deliberate on my part. I don't make it a habit to go around insulting people online. But people need to realize how UNhelpful half-baked answers like that really are.

      When I was new here, I was so frustrated!

      Too much info rolling by too fast, in a very disorganized fashion. Much of it inaccurate or half-baked. I'd ask a simple, but specific question and get a very general response. So general as to be unhelpful.

      Or unprofessional.

      For example, someone asks for specific help/tips on video marketing. Instead of getting specific camera recommendations, shooting/editing specifics, or maybe a video course recommendation, some "genius" comes by and offers "helpful" advice like: "Always smile and be yourself."

      Arrghhh!

      Is he right? Yes. But it's not particularly helpful at the time. It's so general as to be virtually useless.

      Personally, those kinds of responses drove ME crazy when I was looking for help. So I determined to give more helpful, specific info when I could be of help.

      But handing out inaccurate info like "Listbuilding" (as if it were a business in and of itself) when asked how to make money doesn't help the OP. It only muddies the waters without context or further help/recommendations.

      There is too much inaccurate and INCOMPLETE info given here. It certainly contributes to the failure rate in IM.

      Don't think so?

      What about someone who has somehow, accidentally, made a little bit of money? He comes here to crow about it -- and rightfully so.

      And what is the WF's response? "Congrats! Now scale up!"

      Not everything is scalable, sustainable or repeatable. Alexa has pointed this out several times.

      Many express their frustration with their seeming inability to make money online, especially if they've already made some, but can't seem to repeat it.

      Too many go off half-cocked, without having done their homework or even really knowing what business they're really in. But all Warriors can say is "scale up!" or "Keep going, don't quit!" They can't seem to offer anything more substantial than that.

      But if what the OP is doing isn't repeatable, sustainable or scalable (not everything is), "keep going" is very bad advice. Sometimes, the best advice is to stop, re-evaluate, maybe go in a completely new direction.

      Too often, though, Warriors are like lemmings all going off the cliff together, offering nothing helpful at all.

      So that's where I'm coming from.

      But does it matter? Whether I rant or offer help, this thread will disappear in two days. And more newbies will come asking the SAME questions over and over.

      If we ever wanted to help anyone, posting on a forum has absolutely got to be the least efficient, least effective way ever invented to do it. I'm just shouting in the wind and no one hears. (And I say that only as an expression of frustration, not a "poor me" sentiment.)

      Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Suzanne,

    You could teach a course in tough love.

    LOL I actually forgot what this thread was all about in the first place and went completely OT. Thanks for getting it back on track.

    GW
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  • Profile picture of the author NickLenihan
    I completely agree with you on this one.

    Most people that frequent the forums don't have a real understanding what "Internet marketing" really is. In my own words, Internet marketing is basically using different methods that involve the internet to make money online.

    This can be done in any niche, but most people this Internet marketing is only used by marketers who promote make money products on IM related products.

    This is not the case.

    Great post!
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    You're right, it doesn't really matter now anyway.

    P.S. Since you seem to be in contact with him maybe you can convince him to use his writing skills to make money if his music venture doesn't take off as quickly as he'd like. Someone who knows him needs to get through to him before his head explodes because of stress.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      You're right, it doesn't really matter now anyway.

      P.S. Since you seem to be in contact with him maybe you can convince him to use his writing skills to make money if his music venture doesn't take off as quickly as he'd like. Someone who knows him needs to get through to him before his head explodes because of stress.
      The man (Steven) can turn out some word count, original, readable, engaging word count at that. That's what he should be doing if not for the sake of earning $.xx amount per word for the sake of adding content to to attract traffic to his music site. That is, if he just has to stick with the music site.

      I'd never say the music thingy won't work ever, I just personally think, on the internet, words earn more money than tunes for MOST "unknown" individuals. I've seen first hand, professional, known musicians flop on selling background tracks.

      There is a thought among a lot of indie musicians that to earn a somewhat decent living you need "1,000" fans. That translates to meaning 1,000 people who are willing to pay you $100 a year.

      If a word seller has 1,000 fans she can make that much or even more.

      Anyway, if I was a betting man (or is it were a betting man?) I'd bet SW will be back sooner or later.

      At the end of the day this is just a forum and life is too short to worry about "it."

      George Wright
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

        The man (Steven) can turn out some word count, original, readable, engaging word count at that. That's what he should be doing if not for the sake of earning $.xx amount per word for the sake of adding content to to attract traffic to his music site. That is, if he just has to stick with the music site.

        I'd never say the music thingy won't work ever, I just personally think, on the internet, words earn more money than tunes for MOST "unknown" individuals. I've seen first hand, professional, known musicians flop on selling background tracks.

        There is a thought among a lot of indie musicians that to earn a somewhat decent living you need "1,000" fans. That translates to meaning 1,000 people who are willing to pay you $100 a year.

        If a word seller has 1,000 fans she can make that much or even more.

        Anyway, if I was a betting man (or is it were a betting man?) I'd bet SW will be back sooner or later.

        At the end of the day this is just a forum and life is too short to worry about "it."

        George Wright
        George, for what it's worth, I completely agree with you.
        If Steven needs money fast, I absolutely agree his words will make him money faster. I told him so in another thread.

        Sadly, Steven will do what Steven will do and even though I agree with most of the comments made - I still think he must have felt like everyone was ganging up on him. It is has been frustrating for those of us who have tried to help to see him self-destruct on his last few threads. I cringe thinking about it.

        Thomas posted earlier about using past failures as learning tools. I can completely relate. If you only knew how many times I have started over and how many times I have failed at something. But each time it taught me something - exposed a weakness of mine - and made me accountable so I am grateful for that.

        The other thing I learned too is that people will bend over backwards to help you if they see you helping yourself and you humbly accepting the good advice and help given to you. Being grateful and humble goes a long way, imho.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
          I don't have a ton of sympathy for Steven to be honest. During one of his other ranting threads from a few years back, he basically said everything he was doing was wrong and now he has no income. I think I said something that he didn't agree with and he said something like "Oh, there are some in this thread that don't have a clue".

          So you have a guy that literally JUST admitted that he has no idea what he is doing start to call other people "clueless" i.e. me. I've run an online business for 10 years, do over $1M in revenues per year, and pretty much have my hand in every facet of the company at a high level. I don't expect Steven to know any of this, but I just find it hilarious that a person has the chutzpa to admit how wrong he was over the years and then just start calling people clueless who disagree with him. haha.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    There's no excuse for someone to be hurting that badly in this industry...

    If you need money that quickly, get yourself an solid/legit aged PR3/4 domain and start a niche blog to sell niche products. It's 101 stuff... I've looked at his Ezinearticles account. He can write decent enough copy to sell. He's been doing this for what - 8 years?

    Has he been out of it for years maybe? Does he not understand the current state of keyword research and SEO? Ahh, screw it - I'm just going to start selling books and I'll give him free copies for a review, lol.

    I wish the guy all the best at this point, so long as it doesn't mean another thread like this.

    Since you talk to him Alexa, you can tell him to message me if he really needs a hand or to be caught up on how to pull traffic out of the S.E.'s on a budget....
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