Shocker! Gender Bias in Online Marketing? Here's The Latest Stats.

10 years ago

It is a little bit different than talking about gender bias in the workforce.

And it is not just online marketing but entrepreneurship in general.

When a company chooses not to hire women because they believe a female employee is not as good as a male employee for whatever reason, that is clear gender bias.

When women choose not to start their own business that isn't the same thing.

They may face other barriers to entry that men may not face For example, if training in the field is gender biased then the pool of qualified applicants will have a gender bias even if the employers themselves do not.

It may be easy for a woman to open a flower shop but more difficult to open a car repair shop. This is more a societal problem of gender bias when customers with free choice would rather have a man fix their car.

There are many factors that contribute to these problems unrelated to workforce gender bias.

In the case of Internet marketing itself, I think there are few, if any, barriers for women. Most resources you need (hosting/ads/websites/etc) have no gender bias for access.

Networking with other marketers is also not a problem because there doesn't seem to be an issue working with women who are as qualified as anyone else. It is based more on skill than gender. If you can push product, people will welcome you as an affiliate/JV - male or female.

I don't think there is gender bias in Internet Marketing (though I am not a woman). There may be disproportionate representation in the gender make-up of Internet Marketers but that isn't the same thing.

Mahlon

Edit: I didn't see your link at first- thought it was your sig. The article wasn't about IM in general, i.e. entrepreneurs, it was about hiring practices and perceived value (satisfaction) for online service providers. I am not shocked by the results.

To make it meaningful you need to compare to other industries. There is a big problem (from reading media) with gender bias in the hiring practices of big firms like Google and Facebook.

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Interesting thoughts you bring to the discussion onSubie

Originally Posted by onSubie

In the case of Internet marketing itself, I think there are few, if any, barriers for women. Most resources you need (hosting/ads/websites/etc) have no gender bias for access.

I tend to agree from what I can see, But it would be good to hear what a woman says. But I think the main problem most women who own businesses have is not so much the problem of access, but the problem of perception and value. Because of a false perception they often have to work harder than men to get the same respect.

Women often have to prove themselves a little more and sometimes a little longer to get the same respect as men. They even have to tolerate more stuff in order to get the level of respect as men. That's the issues I hear most from women business owners from the woman work from a spare bedroom to Oprah Winfrey

Originally Posted by onSubie

Networking with other marketers is also not a problem because there doesn't seem to be an issue working with women who are as qualified as anyone else. It is based more on skill than gender. If you can push product, people will welcome you as an affiliate/JV - male or female.

Interesting. But I just wonder even though they may be qualified and as long as they can push product they're welcome, but do they get the same level of respect across the board as men.

Would a million dollar a year female experience the same level of support, comraderie and emotional rewards and support as a male?

Originally Posted by onSubie

I don't think there is gender bias in Internet Marketing (though I am not a woman). There may be disproportionate representation in the gender make-up of Internet Marketers but that isn't the same thing.

I see your point, but as you said, we are both men. And if you're right about not thinking there is gender bias in Internet Marketing, it would be the first male dominated industry in the history of the planet that wasn't or isn't. That thought alone pokes at my skepticism.

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onSubie

10 years ago

Originally Posted by The Niche Man

But I think the main problem most women who own businesses have is not so much the problem of access, but the problem of perception and value. Because of a false perception they often have to work harder than men to get the same respect.

Interesting. But I just wonder even though they may be qualified and as long as they can push product they're welcome, but do they get the same level of respect across the board as men.

My initial comments were based on your post without reading the article you referred as I didn't see the link. My points are about a slightly different issue.

The article is more about hiring practices and perception of employees and service providers in companies that do online marketing work.

I responded from the perspective of individual entrepreneur's in Internet Marketing, which wasn't really the subject of the article.

There have been a few articles about the gender make-up of tech and Internet companies in the recent past. I think facebook has a terrible employee gender demographic profile.

I agree with the article. I'm probably not as shocked as the author. And I think it needs more comparative analysis to see the scope of the issue.

For example, how do the Internet Marketing business profiles compare to department stores, or health clubs, or lawyers?

My comments were more about the treatment of Individual IMers by their peers rather than the treatment of employees by an employer.

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Frank Donovan

10 years ago

As onSubie points out, the article is about employees in the industry, not entrepreneurs. The figures are unlikely to be that much different from most other industries.

Originally Posted by The Niche Man

And if you're right about not thinking there is gender bias in Internet Marketing, it would be the first male dominated industry in the history of the planet that wasn't or isn't. That thought alone pokes at my skepticism.

Now I'm confused. If you're implying that you'd expect the Internet Marketing industry to be the same as all other industries, why the shock headline and the hand-wringing in your OP?

..

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

As onSubie points out, the article is about employees in the industry, not entrepreneurs.

It may be even worse for women business owners than employees in certain circumstances. Bias is easier to hide or cover up than if you worked for a company who monitors it more closely. Plus, the old boys network still exist in many areas at the top.

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

The figures are unlikely to be that much different from most other industries.

Do you know that for sure? That's what Search Engine Marketing Reps thought, until they read the stats you see in the article I offered.

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Now I'm confused. If you're implying that you'd expect the Internet Marketing industry to be the same as all other industries, why the shock headline and the hand-wringing in your OP?

I was merely being facetious when I wrote "shocker". It really isn't that shocking to me. To many people it is, in fact people can still see the stats and other evidence and still not believe it, that doesn't shock me either.

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rodonet

10 years ago

What gender bias? You and I know very well that there are quite a number of women in internet marketing who are doing extremely well. Many of them are members of this very forum. That article is a load of crock. Look up "victim card".

In the case of Internet marketing itself, I think there are few, if any, barriers for women. Most resources you need (hosting/ads/websites/etc) have no gender bias for access.

Networking with other marketers is also not a problem because there doesn't seem to be an issue working with women who are as qualified as anyone else. It is based more on skill than gender. If you can push product, people will welcome you as an affiliate/JV - male or female.

I don't think there is gender bias in Internet Marketing (though I am not a woman). There may be disproportionate representation in the gender make-up of Internet Marketers but that isn't the same thing.

^^^ What he said is true.

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Kay King 10 years ago

I've never worried too much about gender bias online or offline. Sometimes, as a woman, you have to work a little smarter or harder but once you prove YOUR worth...not a problem.

Online - what gender bias? No one knows your gender unless you tell them - I've found quite a few pretty young girls here who...weren't.
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- rodonet 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  Online - what gender bias? No one knows your gender unless you tell them - I've found quite a few pretty young girls here who...weren't.
  
  You have a point there. I know a few male online marketers who adopt a "pretty female" persona in order to sell their stuff quite successfully. You may, therefore, draw a conclusion that there's a "reverse gender bias" in online marketing!
  
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- The Niche Man 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  Online - what gender bias? No one knows your gender unless you tell them.
  
  You're right about that Kay, but that only applies if you don't develop a personal relationship with people. We both know that's hard to do even as a online marketer - if you want to be successful.
  
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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by rodonet

What gender bias? You and I know very well that there are quite a number of women in internet marketing who are doing extremely well. Many of them are members of this very forum. That article is a load of crock. Look up "victim card".

I agree with your general observation. The only question I have for you is did they all achieve their success because of zero gender bias or did they achieve their success "despite" gender bias? Just a question to consider.

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Steve B 10 years ago

Originally Posted by The Niche Man

zero gender bias

There is no such thing and it shouldn't be anyone's goal.

Men and women are different and to say that there is a reason why exactly the same percentage should be represented in every industry is barking at the moon.

No one wants discrimination . . . but that is different than a bias toward representation in an industry.

I'm guessing there is a male bias in professional football employment in the U.S. Is that cause for concern? Only if women are qualified for the job and discriminated against for hire when they have met all the qualifications.

Steve
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- kilgore 10 years ago
  
  Interesting discussion. For me personally, I don't look at this as a problem, but as an opportunity (then again, being male, this is easy for me to say!) Our customer base tends to skew female and given that some estimate that women make up to 80% of household spending decisions, this is something I'm very happy about. I'm also very happy that I have a partner in my business -- and that my partner is a woman.
  
  While I can't say for sure what's due to her being female and what's due to her just being her, I certainly know that we do things differently than almost anyone out there -- and it works.
  
  We don't do hard selling, we don't have flashy sales pages, in our social media we've fostered a sense of community around our topical area which has led to both high engagement and an affinity with the brand we've created.
  
  Again, how much of this is due to having a partner that is female? I really can't say. But I certainly do know that we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are without her and I do think her being a woman has helped to shape a voice and tone for our business and marketing efforts that really resonates with our community.
  
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- The Niche Man 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steve B
  
  I'm guessing there is a male bias in professional football employment in the U.S. Is that cause for concern?
  
  Steve
  
  Ha, Ha ... Only if their were hordes of 250 pound women who could run the 40 yard dash in under 6 seconds - being overlooked. I'd be the first to yell gender bias.
  
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- The Niche Man 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steve B
  
  There is no such thing and it shouldn't be anyone's goal.
  
  That's an interesting statement Steve. I understand it's an incredible undertaking. We're just talking about a level playing field. But why do you think zero gender bias "shouldn't be" anyone's goal? Just asking.
  
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  Steve B 10 years ago
  
  Of course that's my personal opinion.
  
  I, for one, think that both women and men gravitate toward the industries for which they are best suited and for which their personalities and skills can best be utilized. That's the level playing field - no constraint, let the person go wherever they feel best inclined.
  
  The playing field is not level when there is discrimination . . . but that's different than a natural gender bias. Discrimination is making a hiring decision based on whether the person is in a group or class rather than on the individual merit of the candidate.
  
  I'm not saying that tradition and history haven't caused some industries to be unduly biased toward a gender stereotype for its employment. Some careers naturally attract more of one gender than another. I don't think that is wrong or that it should be "corrected" by forced hiring or any other artificial human-induced response.
  
  But to say that any industry should be exactly divided, 50-50, and have no (zero) gender bias is foolish. It will never happen. What that belief says is that there should be no difference between the number of men and women in the employment in a given industry and that we should do whatever is necessary to make it so. I don't believe that for a moment.
  
  It reminds me of the economist agrument against zero unemployment. It won't happen. People choose to be unemployed all the time. It's a natural occurrence. Sometimes workers are between jobs, sometimes they want to take a break for a season, sometimes they want to go back to school and train for something else. Total unemployment is a myth. So is zero gender bias.
  
  Steve
  
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Raydal

10 years ago

As a sidenote, I always notice that when an online business is run by a women
the vast majority of testimonials on the site is from women. Always fascinates
me.

I believe in equal work for equal pay, but I think most mechanics will always
be men and most kindergarten teachers will always be women.

EQUAL is really hard to define when it comes to the sexes. The mother carries
the baby, nurses the baby, cries when the child goes to college. The father
gives horseback rides, feeds with a bottle, and breathes a sigh of relief
when the child goes to college (until he gets the bill--then he cries).

Let's celebrate the differences while looking out for the discrimination.

-Ray Edwards

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

EQUAL is really hard to define when it comes to the sexes.

-Ray Edwards

I understand your point generally, Ray. But when you look deeper it's not really hard to define (but maybe hard to achieve). It just about ...

Equal pay for equal work.

Equal opportunity based on equal qualifications.
Equal or mutual respect.

and

A level playing field.

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Raydal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by The Niche Man

I understand your point generally, Ray. But when you look deeper it's not really hard to define (but maybe hard to achieve). It just about ...

Equal pay for equal work.

Equal opportunity based on equal qualifications.
Equal or mutual respect.

and

A level playing field.

So do you believe that a paternal leave with pay should be as long as a
maternal leave with pay? I mean, Daddies should get a chance to be at
home with the new baby as well.

-Ray Edwards

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kilgore

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

So do you believe that a paternal leave with pay should be as long as a
maternal leave with pay? I mean, Daddies should get a chance to be at
home with the new baby as well.

-Ray Edwards

I don't see why not. In fact Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom have legislated paternity leaves ranging from 1 day to over a year. In some cases paternity leave must be taken in lieu of maternity leave; in others it's additional.

That said, it should also be noted that in the US there is no mandated maternity leave though certainly many employers offer it as a benefit anyway.

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

So do you believe that a paternal leave with pay should be as long as a
maternal leave with pay? I mean, Daddies should get a chance to be at
home with the new baby as well.

-Ray Edwards

Absolutely! It's a shame so many other countries are ahead of the U.S when it comes to paternal leave.

But Sweden, The United Kingdom, Serbia and Denmak puts the rest of the world to shame by offeing a year off and 80% to 100% of wages paid.

Those are countries who obviously hold the value of fathers in high esteem as opposed to this country, sadly.

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cj1966

10 years ago

Originally Posted by The Niche Man

Absolutely! It's a shame so many other countries are ahead of the U.S when it comes to paternal leave.

But Sweden, The United Kingdom, Serbia and Denmak puts the rest of the world to shame by offeing a year off and 80% to 100% of wages paid.

Those are countries who obviously hold the value of fathers in high esteem as opposed to this country, sadly.

I'm from the UK. Don't know where you got your info from but its wrong.

You get "1 or 2 weeks" leave, and up to another 26 weeks (only if the other parent returns to work). The maximum you'll get paid (unless the company is nice- and more and more are offering 1 week full pay) is £138 a week.

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by cj1966

I'm from the UK. Don't know where you got your info from but its wrong.

You get "1 or 2 weeks" leave, and up to another 26 weeks (only if the other parent returns to work). The maximum you'll get paid (unless the company is nice- and more and more are offering 1 week full pay) is £138 a week.

You're right, I stand corrected.

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mattschymanga

10 years ago

Females spend a lot more than men online, especially when it comes to apparels etc.

Just take a look at Pinterest. Women make more emotional decisions in buying process, whereas men makes more rational decisions.

I would rather market a product to a female than a male anyday.

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onSubie

10 years ago

Originally Posted by mattschymanga

Just take a look at Pinterest. Women make more emotional decisions in buying process, whereas men makes more rational decisions.

Ahahahahaha!!! Seriously?

Every guy I know is a horrible irrational buyer. Their garages are full of crap like video games, sports equipment they never use, fishing stuff in unopened packages, multiples of the same tool they have never used, ATVs (WTF?) and all sorts of crap that has been used once, if that.

Look at the pile of useless toys, video games and sports equipment men buy without a rational thought in sight.

You think it's an unemotional rational decision to buy rubber balls to hang off their bumpers or buy Yosemite Sam mud flaps?

Just because a man can justify all his crazy shit doesn't mean it's rational....

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MarkyR

10 years ago

Originally Posted by onSubie

Ahahahahaha!!! Seriously?

Every guy I know is a horrible irrational buyer. Their garages are full of crap like video games, sports equipment they never use, fishing stuff in unopened packages, multiples of the same tool they have never used, ATVs (WTF?) and all sorts of crap that has been used once, if that.

Look at the pile of useless toys, video games and sports equipment men buy without a rational thought is sight.

You think it's an unemotional rational decision to buy rubber balls to hang off their bumpers or buy Yosemite Sam mud flaps?

Just because a man can justify all his crazy shit doesn't mean it's rational....

hes right you know... any one can be a compulsive buyer regardless of gender

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TomFerencz 10 years ago

Men Vs. Women – The Frontal Cortex

I think at the buttom of this blog article there is a short abstract about a study (Camerrer and Montague) which explains how male and female where handling this reward/betting experiment. Quite interestingly man where just calculating the numbers while women where busy worrying.

I think this goes quite well with the fact that women tend to be more risk averse:

http://people.exeter.ac.uk/maf206/ec...ssman_2003.pdf
check out table 1 on page 16 (summary of many trials on that subject)

Both risk aversion and irrational decision making are counter productive in entrepreneurship.
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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by onSubie

Ahahahahaha!!! Seriously?

Every guy I know is a horrible irrational buyer. Their garages are full of crap like video games, sports equipment they never use, fishing stuff in unopened packages, multiples of the same tool they have never used, ATVs (WTF?) and all sorts of crap that has been used once, if that.

Look at the pile of useless toys, video games and sports equipment men buy without a rational thought in sight.

You think it's an unemotional rational decision to buy rubber balls to hang off their bumpers or buy Yosemite Sam mud flaps?

Just because a man can justify all his crazy shit doesn't mean it's rational....

Guilty (slowly raising hand)

. In fact, I'm holding a garage sale Saturday to thin out my garage so I can park my car in it (radical thought, huh) for the first time in years.

I was a serial flea market vendor in my younger (and more emotionally impulsive) days, so when buyers taste and styles changed I was stuck with a few items. I could have sworn fanny packs, blank CD's and kids lunch pails would make a strong comeback.

I'll be the only house on my street (or maybe my neighborhood) who'll be able park my car in the garage ... instead of in front it - hah!

I think that says something about our society in general when it comes to people making emotional buying decisions and storing them in the garage -- instead of the car!

It's also another reason why Public Storage and other similar places are getting richer.

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Red Eagle

10 years ago

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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Red Eagle

Anyone care to explain how this fits into gender bias theory? The highest paid female CEO ($38,000,000) last year used to be a man.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/highes...231516214.html

Wow, interesting story and person. She fits into about 3 or 4 different categories. She's obviously not affected by gender bias, although she's quick to admit it exits. And appears to stay incredibly informed about it.

She's definitely a risk taker, basing almost 100% of her compesation on performance. One thing many male and some female CEO's could learn from her. Most wouldn't have the guts to do that though.

She'll definetly be on a lot of people's radar now, for obvious reasons.

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weeklyes

10 years ago

Sex sells. Plain and simple.

Thus, bunches of things you see for sale online have pretty women advertising them.

Having been following lots of launches these days, it does seem like there is a lot of testosterone in the online marketing space. That might scare some women off. I would hope that smart women would just ignore it and build their business anyways like

http://blogs.wsj.com/accelerators/20...does-sex-sell/

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TomFerencz 10 years ago

Speaking about Entrepreneurship (of which IM is a part): it is a risky business, which requires hard and rational decisions quite a lot of time.
It is scientifically shown that women avoid risk much more than men and take decisions on a much more emotional level. That said - it is no surprise that women are underrepresented in that field. And they will always be since it is against their nature. So we will always see that statistical bias towards men in that field. And there are no quotas to be implemented because this stuff is the very mother of free market and survival of the fittest.
However there will always be a few women who will outperform quite intensely because there is of course much stuff to be sold to women.
Who is better in selling crocheting or child care stuff than a women?

That brings me to the topic of quotas. Quite often you can find them in huge companies like Siemens or of course in governments. Quotas are basically a way of discriminating against the best fitted choice in favour of a group that gained huge influence (e.g. women).

The best example was Cathrine Ashton the last EU foreign affairs reprensentative. She was basically responsible to represent the EU in third party negotiations.
The EU needed to fill that position with a women in order comply with the quotas.
That led to the absurd situation where a teacher without much diplomatic background was negotiating in order to avoid the Ukraine conflict - a highly critical diplomatic task.
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- rodonet 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TomFerencz
  
  Speaking about Entrepreneurshit (of which IM is a part): it is a risky business, which requires hard and rational decisions quite a lot of time.
  
  What's "Entrepreneurshit"?
  
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  TomFerencz 10 years ago
  
  my fault, should be a p - entrepreneurship
  
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The Niche Man

10 years ago

Originally Posted by weeklyes

Having been following lots of launches these days, it does seem like there is a lot of testosterone in the online marketing space. That might scare some women off. I would hope that smart women would just ignore it and build their business anyways like

Emma Sinclair: Does Sex Sell? - The Accelerators - WSJ

I don't know if it's scaring women off. Maybe many are just choosing a different online marketing avenue. Many are creating and getting rich blogging and finding their niche in social media.

Example #1
Example #2

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Flyingpig7

10 years ago

Yes I've noticed that too Ray a few woman blogs with all the commentators as women. As a woman I didn't feel compelled to reply on there, but yes I do find that a little strange.

When I saw the first post a different thought occurred to me, there is I feel a slight gender bias in Internet Marketing or rather in advertising when you read the way sales pages are written. This was what I thought you were talking about, obviously not as no other poster has mentioned that except...

Quote from : weeklyes,
Having been following lots of launches these days, it does seem like there is a lot of testosterone in the online marketing space. That might scare some women off....

Since we have the power to write our own sales stuff I do think we have some responsibility not to make assumptions about our audiences we are not all "18 year old games playing teenagers" well that's the impression quite a few IM launches would have you believe was their audience. I'm sure that it's not quite true.
As I buy some of these same products as well. I don't want girly things or flowers just stuff that doesn't say "pow wow or explode, shoot them" or "kill it" well you get the picture.

Yes I do accept there are probably more blokes in IM course we've not had a survey here on the warriorforum to prove that have we?

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